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DIY Stompboxes => Building your own stompbox => Topic started by: digi2t on June 24, 2014, 11:24:38 PM

Title: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on June 24, 2014, 11:24:38 PM
Found this on Ebay, with very little info on the net. On a positive note, great gut shot pictures. Negative note, missing some of the cap values (and wah pot too). Sent an email to the owner for more info, but no reply to date. He might not be interested in revealing the unknown. Anywho, here's the pics, and what I've drawn up as a schematic;

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Iron%20Butterfly/1_zps70dfdd55.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Iron%20Butterfly/1_zps70dfdd55.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Iron%20Butterfly/ib2new_zps8c3b6a2b.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Iron%20Butterfly/ib2new_zps8c3b6a2b.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Iron%20Butterfly/8_zpsec4e8473.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Iron%20Butterfly/8_zpsec4e8473.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Iron%20Butterfly/9_zps02b1b28b.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Iron%20Butterfly/9_zps02b1b28b.jpg.html)

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Iron%20Butterfly/IronButterflyscheme_zps23c115d6.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Iron%20Butterfly/IronButterflyscheme_zps23c115d6.jpg.html)

The two circuits are in series, fuzz first, wah after. Whatever components I don't have values for, I've marked with (?). I'm just guess here, using known circuit values. The tone section, I'm not too sure about, I'm not familiar with this layout. I've seen something similar in a Maestro fuzz schematic.

So, anyone feel like getting their inagaddadavida on with the breadboard on this one?
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: PRR on June 25, 2014, 01:54:25 AM
Groovy man.

Friends just saw The Iron Butterfly Experience at a campground on the outskirts of Ventura. They believe they saw "former members". It's possible: apparently there have been 70 people played as "Iron Butterfly", not just Ingle Bushy Dorman and Braunn.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on June 25, 2014, 06:37:38 AM
Groovy man.

Friends just saw The Iron Butterfly Experience at a campground on the outskirts of Ventura. They believe they saw "former members". It's possible: apparently there have been 70 people played as "Iron Butterfly", not just Ingle Bushy Dorman and Braunn.

Sounds a bit like like Steppenwolf history.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Gus on June 25, 2014, 06:44:59 AM
The Iron Butterfly label in the 2nd picture looks different on my monitor than the rest of the parts.  Could it be the lighting?

I don't remember when I first saw the green caps in the pictures.  Were they around in 71?
found this
http://stompboxaddict.blogspot.com/2010/11/iron-butterfly-fuzz-wah-pedal-1971.html (http://stompboxaddict.blogspot.com/2010/11/iron-butterfly-fuzz-wah-pedal-1971.html)
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on June 25, 2014, 07:15:16 AM
The Iron Butterfly label in the 2nd picture looks different on my monitor than the rest of the parts.  Could it be the lighting?

I don't remember when I first saw the green caps in the pictures.  Were they around in 71?
found this
http://stompboxaddict.blogspot.com/2010/11/iron-butterfly-fuzz-wah-pedal-1971.html (http://stompboxaddict.blogspot.com/2010/11/iron-butterfly-fuzz-wah-pedal-1971.html)

The one with the missing fuzz switch label is from the auction. The other one is one of the few net pics that I found. I added it strictly for informational purposes. All the other pics are from the auction unit.

 
EDIT: Just noticed an error on my drawing. The two 47K resistors on either side of the tone are 4.7K. I update that later today.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: zombiwoof on June 25, 2014, 09:57:38 AM
You know, most bands that only have one surviving member really don't sound the same, but I have to admit that having seen Steppenwolf in their heyday, the recent performances I have seen are still awesome, even with only John Kay left.  I think in their case, he is the main ingredient in their sound.  Really a great performer and songwriter, and doesn't seem to age much after all these years!.  I think he made a deal with the devil?.

Al


Groovy man.

Friends just saw The Iron Butterfly Experience at a campground on the outskirts of Ventura. They believe they saw "former members". It's possible: apparently there have been 70 people played as "Iron Butterfly", not just Ingle Bushy Dorman and Braunn.

Sounds a bit like like Steppenwolf history.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: italianguy63 on June 25, 2014, 10:57:04 AM
Quote
You know, most bands that only have one surviving member really don't sound the same

I think Lynyrd Skynyrd tours now with no surviving members.   :icon_biggrin:  Sorry.   :icon_redface:

(I know Gary R. is still with them, it was a joke people).
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on June 25, 2014, 08:54:08 PM
Here is the schematic with the two resistors corrected.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Iron%20Butterfly/IronButterflyscheme_zps3bf8fdd9.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Iron%20Butterfly/IronButterflyscheme_zps3bf8fdd9.jpg.html)

Might just throw this on the breadboard, for shits and grins.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: joegagan on June 25, 2014, 11:45:03 PM
Quote
You know, most bands that only have one surviving member really don't sound the same

I think Lynyrd Skynyrd tours now with no surviving members.   :icon_biggrin:  Sorry.   :icon_redface:

(I know Gary R. is still with them, it was a joke people).

ha! dennis miller has a joke wherein he says the temptations on tour currently are all 5 foot tall asian people.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: LucifersTrip on June 26, 2014, 12:00:39 AM
Here is the schematic with the two resistors corrected.

I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to do that. I saw that up there and let it slide...It looks like
they threw a tone control on a Fuzzrite....don't know if it's true, but I read numerous times that the Fuzzrite
was what Iron Butterfly used.

Btw, there are ZERO original members currently in the band....I believe the last time they had ANY original member
at all was around 15 years ago.

I totally lucked out and saw them in 87 or 88 when the In- A-Gadda lineup got back together for the last time.
They only did cuts from 1968 & 69 from Heavy, In- A-Gadda & Ball. It was a small bar in Harrisburg,
or possibly Pittsburgh. I'd love to track down a recording of that one.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on June 26, 2014, 06:43:01 AM
I breadboarded this last night. The tone control is kinda weird, it has a loss of volume when you're in the middle of the sweep. At the two extremes, the tone is either loud and deep, but not overly muffled, or loud and stinging, a la Inagada/Satisfaction.

The "dwell" control is interesting. At 0, it produces a nice gated note effect. Palm muted chicken picking gives you a sort of "banjo out of breath" type sound, for lack of a better description. The knarliest fuzz is around the middle of the dial, and sounds somewhat smoother towards 10.

All in all, with it set to treble, a rough fuzz on the dwell, and with a small practice amp blaring with a ton o'verb, it's hard not to play the Inagada hook, and not have a stupid smirk appear on your face.

Going to breadboard the wah section as well, and try them together. Should be interesting. It's just that tone section that bugs me, but I think my trace is correct. Maybe, since there is no volume, it acts as a combo control. Lower volume bass or treble tone in the middle, with either getting louder towards he extremities? :icon_question:
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: wavley on June 26, 2014, 10:33:37 AM
Quote
You know, most bands that only have one surviving member really don't sound the same

I think Lynyrd Skynyrd tours now with no surviving members.   :icon_biggrin:  Sorry.   :icon_redface:

(I know Gary R. is still with them, it was a joke people).

ha! dennis miller has a joke wherein he says the temptations on tour currently are all 5 foot tall asian people.

My old bass player when he joined our band was the then current touring bassist of The Platters... a 17 year old white surfer kid whose first instrument was french horn.  If I can remember correctly, he said the only original Platter left was one of the backup singers.  Miss that guy, dude was a human metronome.  The band moved to NYC, I stayed in Tampa, the band moved back to Tampa, he stayed in NYC and is now in Robbers On High Street and last I saw him he was touring as the bassist of Longwave.  Certainly the most productive music career out of the 5 folks in our band.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: agoldoor on June 26, 2014, 02:35:54 PM
Care to do a vero for this one...? *hint hint nudge nudge*

I breadboarded this last night. The tone control is kinda weird, it has a loss of volume when you're in the middle of the sweep. At the two extremes, the tone is either loud and deep, but not overly muffled, or loud and stinging, a la Inagada/Satisfaction.

The "dwell" control is interesting. At 0, it produces a nice gated note effect. Palm muted chicken picking gives you a sort of "banjo out of breath" type sound, for lack of a better description. The knarliest fuzz is around the middle of the dial, and sounds somewhat smoother towards 10.

All in all, with it set to treble, a rough fuzz on the dwell, and with a small practice amp blaring with a ton o'verb, it's hard not to play the Inagada hook, and not have a stupid smirk appear on your face.

Going to breadboard the wah section as well, and try them together. Should be interesting. It's just that tone section that bugs me, but I think my trace is correct. Maybe, since there is no volume, it acts as a combo control. Lower volume bass or treble tone in the middle, with either getting louder towards he extremities? :icon_question:
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Govmnt_Lacky on June 26, 2014, 02:50:44 PM
I love how the inductor winding is "unwound" in order to make the connections to the turrets.  :o
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on June 26, 2014, 08:55:33 PM
Care to do a vero for this one...? *hint hint nudge nudge*

I breadboarded this last night. The tone control is kinda weird, it has a loss of volume when you're in the middle of the sweep. At the two extremes, the tone is either loud and deep, but not overly muffled, or loud and stinging, a la Inagada/Satisfaction.

The "dwell" control is interesting. At 0, it produces a nice gated note effect. Palm muted chicken picking gives you a sort of "banjo out of breath" type sound, for lack of a better description. The knarliest fuzz is around the middle of the dial, and sounds somewhat smoother towards 10.

All in all, with it set to treble, a rough fuzz on the dwell, and with a small practice amp blaring with a ton o'verb, it's hard not to play the Inagada hook, and not have a stupid smirk appear on your face.

Going to breadboard the wah section as well, and try them together. Should be interesting. It's just that tone section that bugs me, but I think my trace is correct. Maybe, since there is no volume, it acts as a combo control. Lower volume bass or treble tone in the middle, with either getting louder towards he extremities? :icon_question:

Yup, no problemo. Gimme some time, and I'll get it out.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on June 26, 2014, 10:37:02 PM
Here's my first crack. Going to bed now, so I haven't really looked it over. If anybody spots any booboos, let me know.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Iron%20Butterfly/IronButterflyfuzzwah_zps346ef6cf.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Iron%20Butterfly/IronButterflyfuzzwah_zps346ef6cf.jpg.html)

The inductor in the image is based on the size of an inductor I found in the Crybaby.

It's not too big, but I might be able to squeeze it a bit tighter. I'll look at it again tomorrow.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: PRR on June 26, 2014, 10:47:31 PM
> tone control is kinda weird, it has a loss of volume when you're in the middle of the sweep.

With 50K side-legs, and ~~1Meg amp loading, a 1 Meg Lin pot seems high.

If there's a 100K within reach, try that.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Electron Tornado on June 27, 2014, 12:19:22 AM
I breadboarded this last night. The tone control is kinda weird, it has a loss of volume when you're in the middle of the sweep. At the two extremes, the tone is either loud and deep, but not overly muffled, or loud and stinging, a la Inagada/Satisfaction.


I built a Fuzzrite clone a while ago. That's how that particular control works.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: LucifersTrip on June 27, 2014, 12:36:38 AM
I breadboarded this last night. The tone control is kinda weird, it has a loss of volume when you're in the middle of the sweep. At the two extremes, the tone is either loud and deep, but not overly muffled, or loud and stinging, a la Inagada/Satisfaction.


I built a Fuzzrite clone a while ago. That's how that particular control works.

yep...for Fuzzrite topology I prefer the 500K/350K vol/tone combo of the ge version or the 250K/200K combo of the ge Orpheum,
which don't suffer from that middle dropout
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Electron Tornado on June 27, 2014, 03:27:31 AM
yep...for Fuzzrite topology I prefer the 500K/350K vol/tone combo of the ge version or the 250K/200K combo of the ge Orpheum,
which don't suffer from that middle dropout

I used a 350k pot. There is a volume drop in the middle so I added a one transistor amplifier on the end. It looks like the schematic for the fuzz section in this pedal doesn't show the 22k resistor to ground that creates a high pass filter. I'd have to look at a Fuzzrite schematic to see where that resistor goes.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on June 27, 2014, 06:20:36 AM
I think it's a kind of a cool way to combine a tone control, and volume, all in one. It's a new one to my noob eyes.

I'll have to try different pots tonight. Thanks guys! :icon_cool:
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Gus on June 27, 2014, 07:00:32 AM
I just ran a sim for the DC voltages of the fuzz transistors

Are you getting about .6VDC at the collector of the first stage?

Are you getting about 6VDC at the 2nd collector at one end of the dwell rotation and about .6VDC at the other end of the dwell rotation?

Transistor hfe does not seem to matter much in the sim. I tried 2N2222s and 2N5089s and the collector voltages were close in the sim
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on June 27, 2014, 07:53:33 AM
I just ran a sim for the DC voltages of the fuzz transistors

Are you getting about .6VDC at the collector of the first stage?

Are you getting about 6VDC at the 2nd collector at one end of the dwell rotation and about .6VDC at the other end of the dwell rotation?

Transistor hfe does not seem to matter much in the sim. I tried 2N2222s and 2N5089s and the collector voltages were close in the sim

I'll check that tonight, and report back.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on June 27, 2014, 08:08:07 PM
I just ran a sim for the DC voltages of the fuzz transistors

Are you getting about .6VDC at the collector of the first stage?

Are you getting about 6VDC at the 2nd collector at one end of the dwell rotation and about .6VDC at the other end of the dwell rotation?

Transistor hfe does not seem to matter much in the sim. I tried 2N2222s and 2N5089s and the collector voltages were close in the sim

1.017v for the first stage collector.
0.6 at minimum dwell, 5.45v at max dwell, for the second stage collector.

Both transistors are 2N3904's.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Gus on June 28, 2014, 11:37:47 AM
Thanks for the voltage readings.  The sim does not show about 1VDC unless I reduce the first stages collector resistor value if I use 47K in the sim it shows about 1VDC.

Could you check if you used a 47K in you breadboard at Q1 collector?  The pictures posted look like 470k at the two fuzz transistors. 

I added the tone section to the sim it acts like you posted
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Gus on June 28, 2014, 06:29:57 PM
sim

(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=51328&g2_serialNumber=1)
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=51331&g2_serialNumber=1)
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on June 28, 2014, 09:59:03 PM
Strange that the voltage doesn't line up with the sim, but both C resistors are 470K on my breadboard. Got 1v on the first stage collector.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Gus on June 29, 2014, 10:15:54 AM
Could you swap the transistor positions and measure again? 
The 2N2222 model sims the same as measured with circuits I have built.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: PRR on June 29, 2014, 02:42:58 PM
Rc and Rc are the same 470K. But Rb has 1/100th the current of Rc and should show 1/100th the voltage drop. Say ~~8V across Rc, and 0.08V across Rb, plus Vbe, is what Gus said: 0.6V at collector.

Alternatively hFE is super-low, like 10. But that is super unlikely for modern Silicon.

OTOH: if E and C are reversed, the transistor will "work" (for low voltages) except reverse-hFE will be super-low. 1 to 10 instead of 50-500. hFE of 20 gives the numbers digi2t reports. That seems high for a reverse-hFE, but this is poorly controlled in production (because never specified), so maybe?

Overall: with the 470K resistors we must account for Meter Loading. A 10Meg meter would seem to cause readings about 5% low. Not that bad because transistor action stabilizes the voltages. However a 10K/Volt needle-meter would suck everything down enough to make readings dubious.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Gus on July 03, 2014, 06:34:42 PM
A thread
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92997.20 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92997.20)

Any update? 

The dwell control looks like fun
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on July 04, 2014, 05:55:10 AM
Sorry Gus, but work has weighed me down this week. Going to piece together the wah section this weekend.

As for the collector voltage on the first stage, I swapped in a couple of BC149's, and I'm still getting around 1v on the first collector. I'm using a Wavetek Meterman Model 235 DMM.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Gus on July 04, 2014, 11:47:14 AM
Just wired up a 2N2222 with about 200 hfe with two 470Ks like the first stage

I got the .6VDC at the collector

The reason I did that is your voltage reading.

Can you try a different part of your breadboard and measure the resistors with a meter?  Maybe the base to ground resistor is mis-marked?
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: LucifersTrip on July 04, 2014, 02:53:13 PM

I got the .6VDC at the collector


exactly...just measured the last si Fuzzrite I finished, .63V at each collector with 9.6V supply.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on July 04, 2014, 11:38:21 PM
Groovy man.

Friends just saw The Iron Butterfly Experience at a campground on the outskirts of Ventura. They believe they saw "former members". It's possible: apparently there have been 70 people played as "Iron Butterfly", not just Ingle Bushy Dorman and Braunn.

it's funny, i saw an IB alumnus at the gig last week, john catalano. small world ;)

nice find dino, i eyeballed this on ebay myself a few times ;)
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on July 06, 2014, 01:20:05 PM
OK, I finally got a video done. Fuzz alone first, and then fuzz wah together.



Doesn't sound half bad. Got that old school fuzz feel to it. I think it's almost worth sticking into a wah shell... if I had one to spare. :icon_rolleyes:

EDIT:

Here's an updated vero. The first one had errors, and this one is a tad smaller as well.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Iron%20Butterfly/IronButterflyVERO_SMALL_zpsedf877c5.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Iron%20Butterfly/IronButterflyVERO_SMALL_zpsedf877c5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on July 06, 2014, 10:10:50 PM
dino, i have a box coming your way soon, do you want me to stick a wah shell in there for ya ?
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on July 06, 2014, 10:25:01 PM
dino, i have a box coming your way soon, do you want me to stick a wah shell in there for ya ?

PM'd.  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on July 06, 2014, 11:10:15 PM
pm's back, i hope to get it out this week. just waiting to make sure the whole mouser order is in. ;)
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: digi2t on July 08, 2014, 11:40:10 AM
Owner of the unit on Ebay was kind enough to reply to my inquiry as to whether my breadboard test sounded close to the original. To quote...

"Sounds pretty amazing.  You nailed it.  Only problem is that you don't need mine now! Ha. Great job!"

Seeing as how I seem to have developed a knack for finding old console organs for free, a nice Yamaha has recently donated it's guts to me. Lots of 2SC828, 2SC644, 2SC1000, and even a few 2SK30 fets to be had here. Not to mention all the mojotastic caps, diodes, and resistors. Even a few inductors. I'm going to redraw the vero for the bigger parts, and 2SCxxx pinouts. Going to do another free cycle build here, like I did for the Burnski Buzzaroundski build.
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Time River on October 25, 2015, 12:18:21 AM
@digi2t,
Thanks for the pics and diagrams.   I have had one of these pedals since the 80s.   It has some problems and your work will definitely help.   Now that I have seen your pics I think I will dig out the pedal and try to figure out what is wrong with it.  Many thanks for your work!
Kevin
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: blackieNYC on October 25, 2015, 08:41:10 AM
Maybe old news, but I believe the "tone" control is, just like the fuzz rite, not a tone control but a panner between the two transistors. In this case a different filter is added to each. No? 
On the fuzz rite, it really just sweeps between two very different distortions, nothing filter-y about it. Tried reducing the size of the panner to reduce the attenuation in the middle, but it just took away some diversity from the fuzz. Like the man said, output stage. 
Title: Re: Iron Butterfly fuzz wah.
Post by: Electron Tornado on October 25, 2015, 09:34:22 PM
Finally ran across the video this evening. The sound of the fuzz with the reverb really reminded me of this band:






OK, I finally got a video done. Fuzz alone first, and then fuzz wah together.



Doesn't sound half bad. Got that old school fuzz feel to it. I think it's almost worth sticking into a wah shell... if I had one to spare. :icon_rolleyes: