Hello all -
I am getting ready to wire up a true bypass looper pedal. It will have 14 footswitchable loops. There will also be one passive loop (no footswitch) between loops 7 and 8 to connect to my amp using the 4-cable method. (Loops 1-7 will be in front of the amp, loops 8-14 will be in the amp's effects loop.)
However, I would like to make the passive loop moveable, so that I can select whether it is located between loops 6-7, 7-8, or 8-9. Even just having that much flexibility would be hugely helpful going forward.
In order to wire that, I need a 6P3T switch. It could either be a rotary, or toggle, or something else. It needs to be somewhat low profile (especially if it's an external switch because my back panel is a bit cramped, but I could go with an internal "screwdriver" type rotary or even DIP switch i stead).
If anyone has any suggestions on a quality switch that could work for this purpose, please let me know. So far I've only seen those multideck rotary seitches that are quite large. Thanks in advance!
(You know, as I'm writing this, I'm thinking an internal DIP switch wherein each physical switch is a DPDT would be quite simple to wire. Maybe that's the way to go.)
Cheers.
I think I could just use 3 of these:
https://www.mouser.com/productdetail/switchcraft/46206lrx?qs=ReZUMDdiXnQuv6mmQGGqFg%3D%3D
But I'm not sure how I'd mount those inside my enclosure? (i.e., what do I screw them to?)
Quote from: dave999z on December 27, 2017, 12:13:59 PM
I think I could just use 3 of these:
https://www.mouser.com/productdetail/switchcraft/46206lrx?qs=ReZUMDdiXnQuv6mmQGGqFg%3D%3D
But I'm not sure how I'd mount those inside my enclosure? (i.e., what do I screw them to?)
Those switches can be mounted against the inside of your enclosure, with a rectangular hole just big enough for the sliding part and two drill holes for the screws. The screw heads will be on the outside of the enclosure. Hope that makes sense.Hmm... I just reread the question. Sometimes you can find this kind of switch with tapped mounting holes on those flanges. Otherwise, you'd have to put a nut on the back, I suppose, if your screw threads aren't right.
Thanks, that makes sense.
I'm also wondering if one of these would work (there are two different types):
http://www.switchcraft.com/Category.aspx?Parent=655
Seems much lower profile. But the specs provided don't have enough detail. Not sure if these have DPDT function. And it seems like it may be possible to configure so that only one switch can be depressed at a time (i.e., if you press one, the previous one pops out), which would be great.
Take a look at pp. 301-317 of this doc:
www.switchcraft.com/Documents/EDG4.pdf
So helpful... Thank you!
I think I'm going to make the passive loop assignable to one of five (instead of three) locations: between either loops 5-6, loops 6-7, loops 7-8, loops 8-9, or loops 9-10.
So it looks like I need a series 6500 switch with "interlock" function.
I'm not sure what is meant by "max 2-C switching per station" versus "max 4-C switching per station" on this page...
http://www.switchcraft.com/productsummary.aspx?Parent=451
I also wish they gave the dimensions.
I was a bit confused by the 2-C or 4-C thing too. I think it just means double-pole or 4-pole.
Actually, p. 307 of that doc describes the contact arrangements.
Dimensions are in the drawings.
I was thinking maybe it means 2 contacts or 4 contacts, but that doesn't make sense for a DPDT switch (which should have 6 contacts). Hmmm.
But I think you're right, based on this, where it says "Maximum switching per station is 4-C (4PDT)"...
https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/65000-series/35009?mpart=65061K206X&vendor=137
4PDT would require 12 lugs per switch though, and none of the pictures look that way.
To add more poles, they just make the switch longer. P. 309 shows what that looks like (top center of the drawing).
Or, for the leaf switches, they add more leaf switch stacks (e.g., two side-by-side above the actuator and another two side-by-side beneath the actuator).
You're right, it's all in there. (I was just too impatient.) :icon_redface:
I really would like a 5-station one, but it looks like odd numbers are custom orders. Since I was waffling between 3 and 5, I'll probably get a 4-station one. Which would be model number 65041K206.
Thanks very much. I really appreciate your help. I think this will work out well. So I'll basically wire one of the stations between each footswitch. When the particular switch is "out" it will just jumper (to bypass the station). When a particular switch is "in", it will route the signal to the passive loop. In order to connect them all to the passive loop I'll have to daisy chain the "in" positions together (if that makes sense).
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4PCS-6P3T-6-Pole-3-Way-Dual-Deck-24-Pins-Band-Channael-Rotary-Switches/1950456057.html
> confused by the 2-C or 4-C thing
(Relay and) Switch-geeks have their own lingo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_contacts
http://www.ni.com/white-paper/4453/en/
(http://www.ni.com/cms/images/devzone/tut/Switch_Topologies.png)
(http://www.ni.com/cms/images/devzone/tut/a/7ef9fd41143.gif)
What you or I call "DPDT" can be called "2 form C contacts". And of course when you are hip, you drop the "form" and "contacts".
Though I didn't see it stated anywhere explicitly, I sort have the sense that the question was asked about a 6P3T, based on the assumption that if a 3PDT switch is used to engage a "loop" of a single effect in a pedal, and provide a status LED, then 3 poles would be required for what the OP had planned.
HOWEVER, the need for a status LED and third switch pole in pedals arises from the fact that the switch itself looks exactly the same, whether in effect or bypass mode. The LED is there to tell you that, despite the fact that the switch looks exactly as it did a moment ago, it is now in effect mode.
When one uses any sort of switch that provides a visual indication of the state, no status LED is needed, unless the user/ manufacturer has some requirement to be able to discern the switch state from a distance. If one is close enough to see the switch, its position provides all the state information one needs. Long-handle toggles and rotary switches fall into this category.
One will need a suitable knob to deliver the "state" information. Probably the best choice for this task is the venerable chicken-head knob, whose ppointer can be nicely lined up with legending.
I will note in passing that Ibanez used a rotary switch for their UE-400 multi-FX rack unit, calling it the "Insta-patch" system. IN their case, there were only 5 "stations into which a given effect could be inserted. You will note there is no status indicator provided, other than the position of the switch. Probably could have used a better knob for the task,
(https://www.tonehome.de/s/cc_images/cache_43342517.jpg?t=1427829154)
Quote from: Mark Hammer on December 27, 2017, 09:46:42 PM
Though I didn't see it stated anywhere explicitly, I sort have the sense that the question was asked about a 6P3T, based on the assumption that if a 3PDT switch is used to engage a "loop" of a single effect in a pedal, and provide a status LED, then 3 poles would be required for what the OP had planned.
HOWEVER, the need for a status LED and third switch pole in pedals arises from the fact that the switch itself looks exactly the same, whether in effect or bypass mode. The LED is there to tell you that, despite the fact that the switch looks exactly as it did a moment ago, it is now in effect mode.
When one uses any sort of switch that provides a visual indication of the state, no status LED is needed, unless the user/ manufacturer has some requirement to be able to discern the switch state from a distance. If one is close enough to see the switch, its position provides all the state information one needs. Long-handle toggles and rotary switches fall into this category.
One will need a suitable knob to deliver the "state" information. Probably the best choice for this task is the venerable chicken-head knob, whose ppointer can be nicely lined up with legending.
I will note in passing that Ibanez used a rotary switch for their UE-400 multi-FX rack unit, calling it the "Insta-patch" system. IN their case, there were only 5 "stations into which a given effect could be inserted. You will note there is no status indicator provided, other than the position of the switch. Probably could have used a better knob for the task,
(https://www.tonehome.de/s/cc_images/cache_43342517.jpg?t=1427829154)
When I was thinking of using a rotary switch, I was not planning an LED indicator. The passive loop is always active (unless there's nothing plugged into it, in which case that jack just shunts the signal onward). The only thing the rotary switch would do is set the location of the passive loop. And that is something I'd change once in a blue moon and do not need any visual indication of the current state.
But to switch a circuit among three locations, you need one pole for the input and output side of each location. So two poles per location, times three locations, equals 6 poles. That's why I was looking for a 6P3T rotary switch.
But I decided to use one of the Switchcraft multiple station pushbutton switches (see above) instead. I think it should work fine.
> Ibanez used a rotary switch for their UE-400
http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18397/UE400_SVC__pg_08x.jpg
This appears to be a 3 pole 5 throw switch, less than I expected. Pole 3 is for a "mis-set LED"; ignore that and you could do a 2-pole 6-throw, which is a standard rotary.
But I have not absorbed what they are really doing with the buses and switches. Mixed with JFETs but they may just be bypass, not order-switching? Too cold to see straight. Some northern land is sending all their spare cold air here for the next few days.
eBay is your friend https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F391277360192 I have used one of these in a pedal. They do disconnect before reconnecting when you switch so you'll get pops if changing the rotary while using the pedal.
Quote from: PRR on December 27, 2017, 11:44:07 PM
> Ibanez used a rotary switch for their UE-400
http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18397/UE400_SVC__pg_08x.jpg
This appears to be a 3 pole 5 throw switch, less than I expected. Pole 3 is for a "mis-set LED"; ignore that and you could do a 2-pole 6-throw, which is a standard rotary.
But I have not absorbed what they are really doing with the buses and switches. Mixed with JFETs but they may just be bypass, not order-switching? Too cold to see straight. Some northern land is sending all their spare cold air here for the next few days.
The "miss-set" indication is essentially a failsafe mechanism, such that all effects/stations in the unit are always in series and never in parallel.
The cure for that is attention and conscientiousness. It lets one drop a pole from the switch.
Quote from: Chris S on December 28, 2017, 08:10:25 AM
....... I have used one of these in a pedal. They do disconnect before reconnecting when you switch so you'll get pops if changing the rotary while using the pedal.
so, Form C, non-shorting, or break-before-make. the non-pop, Form D version could be called make-before-break, non?
There is really no difference between a stompswitch and a break-before-make rotary, with respect to avoiding popping. Just do for the one whatever you do for the other.
Quote from: PRR on December 27, 2017, 11:44:07 PM
you could do a 2-pole 6-throw, which is a standard rotary.
I don't see how you could move a loop around using a 2P6T switch. Well, I see how you could move a loop around, but it would leave the other five non-selected circuits disconnected. When a given signal is not the one being "interrupted" by the passive loop (which is connected to the two poles), it needs to be jumpered so the signal will still flow through it. A 2P6T switch would indeed let you move a passive loop around among six different signals, but at any given time the other five signals would be disrupted rather than jumpered.
Unless I'm not understanding the switch functionality (entirely possible).
The switch has two poles that can be directed to each of 6 sets of contacts. One pole is for in and the other is for out. The "out" of the preceding rotary switch goes to the "in" of the next switch. Each position of the rotary switch dictates what each in and out of that switch goes to /comes from. That could be an effect or a loop. You want to avoid having more than one switch set to the same position.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on December 28, 2017, 06:05:50 PM
The switch has two poles that can be directed to each of 6 sets of contacts. One pole is for in and the other is for out. The "out" of the preceding rotary switch goes to the "in" of the next switch. Each position of the rotary switch dictates what each in and out of that switch goes to /comes from. That could be an effect or a loop. You want to avoid having more than one switch set to the same position.
Yes, but our friend wants to
break the signal chain at one of several points and connect the send and return to either side of the chosen break point.
There's a nuance there that I'm not following.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on December 28, 2017, 07:21:06 PM
There's a nuance there that I'm not following.
Perhaps me too. I'll reread and double check my thinking, just in case.
> understanding the switch functionality
Took me 9 hours to work this out. (OK, I was rehabbing a kitchen for 8 of those hours.)
The full schematic is very complicated. I cut-down to the in/out, buses, switching, and basic blocks.
(https://s18.postimg.org/hqhfj9oo5/UE400-switching.gif) (https://postimg.org/image/hqhfj9oo5/)
You must go through ALL five stages. The Mis-Set light tells you when you have (not) done that right. If you don't actually want a stage, you hit the Bypass on that stage.
Quote from: EBK on December 28, 2017, 07:08:28 PM
Yes, but our friend wants to break the signal chain at one of several points and connect the send and return to either side of the chosen break point.
Correct, but it's more than that. It's not enough to rotate the send and return to either side of the CHOSEN break point. In addition, for each of the NON-CHOSEN break points, you have to leave the signal chain INTACT by rotating a jumper to those spots. (If you don't rotate a jumper to each of those spots, then there is nothing at each of those spots, which means the signal dies at each of those spots.)
The solution there is to simply make one of the positions out of the 6 a direct connection from in to out. That means/implies that each 6-position switch is capable of selecting between 5 alternatives and a simple feedthrough.
Rotary switches tend to come in variations that revolve around 12 contacts. So, 2-pole w/6 positions, 3-pole with 4 positions, 4-pole with 3 positions, and 1 pole with 11 (and sometimes 12) positions. The single-pole switches offer more positions, but would require more complex electronic switching, with each position selecting/actuating FETs or CMOS switches, instead of a simple mechanical connection.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on December 28, 2017, 11:18:08 PM
The solution there is to simply make one of the positions out of the 6 a direct connection from in to out. That means/implies that each 6-position switch is capable of selecting between 5 alternatives and a simple feedthrough.
Rotary switches tend to come in variations that revolve around 12 contacts. So, 2-pole w/6 positions, 3-pole with 4 positions, 4-pole with 3 positions, and 1 pole with 11 (and sometimes 12) positions. The single-pole switches offer more positions, but would require more complex electronic switching, with each position selecting/actuating FETs or CMOS switches, instead of a simple mechanical connection.
I understand what you're saying there.
But here is the problem at hand: I have 3 spots in my signal chain... spot A, spot B, and spot C. I will have a 3-position switch labeled "A", "B", and "C". If I set the switch to "A", I want to insert a send/return loop at spot A, and
I want to leave the signal uninterrupted at spots B and C. If I set the switch to "B", I want to insert the send/return loop at spot B, and I want to
leave the signal uninterrupted at spots A and C. If I set the switch to "C", I want to insert the send/return loop at spot C, and I want to
leave the signal uninterrupted at spots A and B.
To accomplish that, I would need a 6P3T rotary switch. I don't see how that functionality could be accomplished with a rotary switch having anything less than 6 poles and anything less than 3 positions.
Are A and C supposed to be in use when B is being used, or is the assumption that only one of the 3 are to be used at any given time?
Quote from: Mark Hammer on December 29, 2017, 02:05:20 PM
Are A and C supposed to be in use when B is being used, or is the assumption that only one of the 3 are to be used at any given time?
A and C are in use in the sense that signal is flowing through them uninterrupted.
I may be bad at explaining this, because I'm not sure how else to do it.
It looks like this...
signal flow: beginning---------->A-------------->B--------------->C-------------->end
Signal needs to flow from beginning to end. All I want to do is have a 3-position rotary switch to select where to insert a send/return loop (i.e., at point A, point B,
or point C). Whichever point I select to insert the loop, signal still needs to flow through the other two points undisturbed.
At any rate, I decided not to use a rotary switch anyway. I'm going to use a Switchcraft multistation pushbutton switch.
Fair enough. The length of time it took to get to this point in the thread is why I often respond to OPs with the question: Well, what do you want it to do for you? The query in the OP may be about some particular component/element, but the intended goal/s are what really direct the optimal solution. Always good to articulate what the final/ultimate capability needs to be. Sometimes - and this is not at all meant as any criticism of yourself - the solution makes itself clear when the end-state is identified.
So I received that Switchcraft 4-button switch, and it's really high quality and will do what I want, but I think it's going to be too big for my clearances. >:(
So kind of back to the drawing board.
I'm not against doing it via an internal dip switch. Is anyone aware of DPDT (or even SPDT) dip switches that use solder lugs instead of PC terminals? I can't seem to find any.
Alternatively, I wouldn't mind mounting a bank of mini slide switches on the exterior (on the side of the enclosure) if I could get slide switches that have recessed buttons. Pretty much like these voltage selector switches, but without the labels. https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/switchcraft-inc/46206LFRX/SC1817-ND/1288783
Quote from: dave999z on January 09, 2018, 12:45:08 PM
I'm not against doing it via an internal dip switch. Is anyone aware of DPDT (or even SPDT) dip switches that use solder lugs instead of PC terminals? I can't seem to find any.
Alternatively, I wouldn't mind mounting a bank of mini slide switches on the exterior (on the side of the enclosure) if I could get slide switches that have recessed buttons. Pretty much like these voltage selector switches, but without the labels. https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/switchcraft-inc/46206LFRX/SC1817-ND/1288783
No on DIP with solder lugs, but you can mount a DIP on a small piece of perf or vero board.
If you mount mini slide switches with the screw holes on the interior of the enclosure, the button won't stick out much. You could also take a group of mini slide switches with PCB pins, solder them to perfboard, and then mount the perfboard to the enclosure using spacers to get the required depth.
Thanks for your ideas. I've been thinking along those same lines.
Are there DIPs that have 3 pins (rather than 2, which I know is actually the definition of DIP, making this probably a dumb question) per lever instead of 2? In other words, where each lever is a SPDT switch. If so, are there any where each lever functions as a DPDT switch?
You're almost entering this territory:
(http://p.globalsources.com/IMAGES/PDT/BIG/951/B1061926951.jpg)
Or, perhaps on a different scale, and in a different era...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Telephone_operators%2C_1952.jpg/393px-Telephone_operators%2C_1952.jpg)
Hmm, looks like they do have these unlabeled. Will probably either do this, or just mini slide switches on a perfboard inside the enclosure. Now I'm kind of leaning that way so I don't have to measure for a cutout on the side of the enclosure.
https://www.mouser.com/productdetail/switchcraft/11a1432x?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtHXLepoqNyVX8OyRcMpuKiNiKfFC%2F7onQ%3D
This is a really basic question.
This switch...
https://www.mouser.com/productdetail/switchcraft/c56206l2x?qs=iwvYsH9bSFY%252bHfmJnofQCw%3D%3D
...has pins that are spaced at 0.181".
But it seems most perfboards are spaced at 0.1". So this switch would not work with a standard perfboard?
Correct. You want something like this:
http://www.taydaelectronics.com/electromechanical/switches-key-pad/slide-switch/slide-switch-2p3t-through-hole-0-3a-50vdc-3507.html (http://www.taydaelectronics.com/electromechanical/switches-key-pad/slide-switch/slide-switch-2p3t-through-hole-0-3a-50vdc-3507.html)
That's a 2P3T - I couldn't find a PCB mount 2P2T on Tayda's site. I'm sure Mouser has one somewhere but searching through all the parts on Mouser is tedious. This switch has 2.5mm spacing between the pins, which is what you need (and it's a lot cheaper).
Quote from: reddesert on January 10, 2018, 01:22:23 AM
Correct. You want something like this:
http://www.taydaelectronics.com/electromechanical/switches-key-pad/slide-switch/slide-switch-2p3t-through-hole-0-3a-50vdc-3507.html (http://www.taydaelectronics.com/electromechanical/switches-key-pad/slide-switch/slide-switch-2p3t-through-hole-0-3a-50vdc-3507.html)
That's a 2P3T - I couldn't find a PCB mount 2P2T on Tayda's site. I'm sure Mouser has one somewhere but searching through all the parts on Mouser is tedious. This switch has 2.5mm spacing between the pins, which is what you need (and it's a lot cheaper).
Thanks again for your help. Since my guitar signal will be going through this, I'd like to find a Switchcraft or other quality slide switch with 0.1" spacing. If anyone has any recommendations, please let me know.
> spaced at 0.181". But it seems most perfboards are spaced at 0.1".
That switch is a LOT older than the 0.1" perf standard.
(Perfboard used to be made with holes farther apart, but 0.181" does not sound familiar.)
I think the 0.181" comes from what some designer thought was good to the finger. The slide and contacts mean the pin spacing equals the distance the grip moves from position to position. Maybe 0.181 "felt right". Maybe the shoe machinery (a LOT of older switchery was stamped and assembled on machines made for shoe eyelets) had a 0.181" setting.
I've never liked those switches. I'm glad they went out of common use. (However those few PC power supplies that still have a 120V/240V switch may be the same thing with recessed knob?)