Ok...it's not perfect...I still get a "pop" when I turn it off...but I've finally been able to get some sounds up of my DIY SUSTAINER, infamous from the long running, and very long, sustainer thread over at Project Guitar...
So here's the link to the Sustainer Sounds Thread....
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=17852
This is not a promotion for PG by the way, nor is the Sustainer really a "stompbox" but I'm sure some will be interested to hear what the thing sounds like...so there it is.... :D
psw
Wow.... Like the beckistan sound BTW
2 sounds don't work (trash / who).
Thanks BernardduurQuoteWow.... Like the beckistan sound BTW
Yeah...I'm a major JB fan, and that worked out OK...it certainly shows off the range of the device...
Everything was recorded with a cheap Korg Toneworks AX1G digital effect unit, straight into the computer through headphones, one guitar, no edits..
That
beckistan sound is just a mild distortion with a digital echo in the back...nothing fancy...
The "effect" is those
amazingly high harmonics...some of those sounds are sounding well above the 40th fret. Those sounds pulled up with the trem are notes along the g string 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th and pulled up with the trem to 12th. The guitar is a pretty standard traditional trem, no floyds or anything! But they 'sound' well above the played notes don't they...they really scream (but without all the distortion, volume and metal posturing usually required or associated with such an effect)
One cool thing is that you don't actually have to pick a note at
all...just place your finger down and the notes swell up from nowhere...there's a few sounds like that. Sliding a finger around, once a harmonic is established, sustains at that harmonic too as in the last phrase of that satch tune...
Quote2 sounds don't work (trash / who).
You're the first to mention it...still, at the top of the post there's a link to the site of the member who's hosting them for me, you should be able to download directly from there...give it a go...I know I had trouble posting those two url's, so thanks...I'll look into it!
So you know what you're missing...the thrash one is pretty forgettable, max distortion to demonstrate those typical metal squeels and bombs...
The 'Who Trembles' track is probably more of interest to pedal geeks...it demonstrates how a sustainer guitar can radically expand the use of conventional effects. I used a simple tremolo effect that gives a constant on-off beat to the drone. By switching the harmonic switch back and forth, the actual string changes it's mode of vibration from it's fundumental through it's related harmonics...
The effect is similar to the synth on the Who's "Baba O'Reily" or "Who are you". Imagine what some kind of auto-filter could do with those constant beats. And it's not limited to drones, playing chords automatically creates a sustained bass effect. And, you can play stuff over the top while the effect continues...
A sub project of the sustainer project was to accentuate the "synth" like qualities of these extended note capabilities...you also have quite a bit of control over dynamics, attack and decay with careful dampening techniques...it really is very responsive to a players touch and technique. It's obviously going to take a lot more practice to really exploit the possibilities of it...
Thanks for the feedback...it's really appreciated...
psw
I read the tutorial...... Is it THAT easy????
Man, I am making one!
One question:
How did you make the "harmonic" part because I can't seem to find it in the tutorial (and I don't have that much time to read the whole sustainer thread......)
Thanks!
psw, well played. im listening to these sound clips and im really amazed. you've done a hell of a job.
now, when can we start getting them? :P
Cool man! It reminds me of my Fernandez Sustainer guitar that I used to own. It had two switches. One was on/off and the other was a three way to choose switch the sustain between note played/one octave up/two octaves up. I played with that thing until it broke... One fun thing to do with it was using without an amp and just sitting there holding out notes forever. That used to freak people out...
Sounds cool. Maybe you can use some of the pop-less bypass diagrams used in stompboxes, but use it in the sustainer. I would love to have a sustainer in my guitar.
Is there an actuall tutorial? Did I miss it? I've read around a bit on the Project guitar site but didn't see it. Looks really cool!
I'd like to see the construction and schematic etc
Thanks
John
QuoteI'd like to see the construction and schematic etc
Yes, a job very well done. But, I think psw will be keeping the thing under wraps as far as specifics go. He has
a lot of time and effort invested in the project. After all, this is an alternative to the current Sustainiac/ebow type system, and I think it's potentially quite marketable due to minimal modifications required for installation in the guitar.
Turorial at http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984
Very nice, including schematics and so. I'm still searching for the harmonic part.
Harmonic switch is really easy, you just swap the wires going to the driver to switch between fundamental/harmonic mode.
You get normal sustain when the driver is in phase with the string vibration. But when it is out of phase, the fundamental note gets canceled out leaving you with its harmonics.
PSW, i'm downloading the samples ;)
...
emre
Ah..... so switch the + and the - on the driver side.... THANKS!
Thanks everyone...It truely is an amazing device...and so much fun to play.... :lol:
QuoteBut, I think psw will be keeping the thing under wraps as far as specifics go.
Well, actually I've recently revealed all on my use of this technology...those ultra-miniture hex drivers however are mine...
I guess all I can ask is that if people do make these things they share their experiences and results with people so the thing can keep developing...that'll help mine become even better...!!!!
I was a little concerned about G'Mikes tutorial...that isn't the circuit I'm using and he can't get the high b & e to respond, and it doesn't work in harmonic mode at all....!!! But, hey, he was keen and he did link back to the thread and give credit...
There's also a pictorial in the Sustainer Thread of the actual building of the pickup/driver combo I'm using now, around page 49-ish I believe...
The only reason I haven't shown
exactly how I'm doing it is that there are still problems...that "pop" has got to go, but I've tried a lot of things...this isn't my area so if anyone's got any suggestions.... :wink:
It's like this...if I were to say...this
the way to build a fuzz box...never mind that it pops and doesn't do what it's supposed to, and I'm the only one who seems to be able to get the thing to actually work...it really wouldn't help knowing the schematic...anyway, the secret's in the driver by the way.... 8)
The principle is simple...bridge pickup->preamp->LM386 amp->phase switch->driver coil
Getting the design right is a little more tricky...It seems like a compact, slim coil of about 8 ohms of 0.2mm wire has given best results. My best drivers have been about 4mm thick. This is about 200 turns and quite easy to wind by hand. The core of the coil could be made of a number of materials, I've simply used a bit of 3mm steel bar to keep with the DIY aesthetics...ferrite might be better, but how you going to cut it!
Anyway...the whole thing is really just getting all the elements right, fix that pop for me, maybe streamline what is a pretty basic circuit concept, and then I will do a an offical PSW tutorial...there's just a few little problems to iron out....
Anyway...glad you all seemed to be impressed...it certainly has the WoW factor....!
psw
this seems too cool, somebody fix that pop!
PnL,
Jeff
Ah, I once followed the thread to page 32 (were still there at the time) and tried my own own the sustainer; than my attention had to be used on some other stuff and the idea went in the closet.
Now it is time to get it out again. Thanks for the soundsamples; they got me starting again.
Quote from: Marcos - MunkySounds cool. Maybe you can use some of the pop-less bypass diagrams used in stompboxes, but use it in the sustainer. I would love to have a sustainer in my guitar.
Hey...maybe some of you guys could point me in the right direction for the popless switching type of ideas...there's just so much stuff here..!!!
What you're looking at is a basic generic LM386 amp with a preamp...very simple (wouldn't mind making my circuit smaller but that fetzer/ruby schematic in G'Mikes tutorial is being tried by a few people and is v. small).
You only get the "pop" when switching the device
off (not on)...I'm already using a 4PDT switch to wire my guitar...check out the current page {61} of the thread to see a drawing of that and the harmonic switch...
It maybe that digital switching is the go...it's quite a difficult job (depending on your guitar)...I had to rewire the whole thing to work it out for mine, but every guitar's likely to be different...
I had wondered if you put a little buffer on the guitar that's always on (making it active) the off pop of the sustainer might be avoided as the guitar wouldn't actually be turned off...or perhaps just turning off the poweramp part and leaving the preamp on when the sustainer is off and the guitar's plugged in....
Any thoughts on these ideas...you guy's would know heaps more about this type of thing than me... :wink:
peteQuotethis seems too cool, somebody fix that pop!
Oh...it really
is too cool.... 8)
Did you tried to put a 1M resistor connected between the input of the preamp (where the preamp and the pickup are connected) and ground, and one 1M resistor between the output cap of the 386 amp (where the 386 amp and the phase switch are connected, I believe) and ground? This is a trick that is used almost all the time to get pop-less bypass.
I tried something like that but not two resistors...I'll give it a go...thanks for the tip.... 8)
Time to re-gut this little number (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v515/Nabotics/guitars.jpg) (the homemade one of course... THE FURY ;)). Thanks so much for posting all the info. Should be fun to mess around with :D
That sounds really great! 8)
I've wondered about this sort of thing for quite a while. Thank you so much for posting all your info.
While it is a goody, the 386 is as old as the hills and there are lots of other little amp chips available these days with pop-less operation.
Remember that there are hundreds of chips that were introduced 20 years after the 386, which have already become obsolete. ;)
Philips is one company to check with, TI is another.
Oh yea... when it comes to other chips out there, the fact that your driver is isolated from the signal ground allows you to use bridge configuration
outputs. That greatly expands the number of chips available. You might be able to get this whole thing to run at 3.6V in which case you could use a lithium polymer battery and reduce the size drastically while greatly increasing service life. The only gotcha is the need for a real Li-poly battery charger circuit, but there are zillions of those out there too. ;) (see Maxim and Linear Technology to start)
It just flashed to me... what if I took a little speaker and attached it to the body of my guitar to make it vibrate. I guess there would be some problems with that, as the guitar is alot tougher to move than the cone and it would propably just cause lots of squeeky feedback.
Any thoughts on this?
-----
"One fun thing to do with it was using without an amp and just sitting there holding out notes forever."
Oh yes, imagine doing those long-sustaining solos on an acoustic. Creepy stuff :D
--------
Jimbo
I once tried the same but than with the microphonic option of a pickup; mount a speaker under a pickup with the fed back signal makes a bit sustain.......
Took it off; it was too much of a hassle
That really sounds awesome!!!
I love the clean chords. :D
Doug
I would so love to put on in my guitar, but alas... I have an EMG setup.
and at $94/pop, I'm not pulling them out.
now, if I can get that 2nd guitar, you might have a deal...
PnL,
Jeff
Quote from: Peter SnowbergWhile it is a goody, the 386 is as old as the hills and there are lots of other little amp chips available these days with pop-less operation.
Remember that there are hundreds of chips that were introduced 20 years after the 386, which have already become obsolete. ;)
Philips is one company to check with, TI is another.
Oh yea... when it comes to other chips out there, the fact that your driver is isolated from the signal ground allows you to use bridge configuration
outputs. That greatly expands the number of chips available. You might be able to get this whole thing to run at 3.6V in which case you could use a lithium polymer battery and reduce the size drastically while greatly increasing service life. The only gotcha is the need for a real Li-poly battery charger circuit, but there are zillions of those out there too. ;) (see Maxim and Linear Technology to start)
That sounds great...can you suggest some actual chip number's or series to check out...I've looked a little into it, was thinking of D class amps...but I only know electronics from what I run into and use...it's a little limited...
The driver takes a fair amount of current to run, and I think that's where the real power consumption is happening, it may be unavoidable...
I've designed and tested the thing with rechargable 9v (8.?) batteries but they don't last too long on a charge compared to a normal battery...the cost of a charger is not really an issue compared to continuously having to change batteries... :wink:
So any info, or suggestions for further study would definitely be appreciated...
pete
Quote from: JimRaydenIt just flashed to me... what if I took a little speaker and attached it to the body of my guitar to make it vibrate. I guess there would be some problems with that, as the guitar is alot tougher to move than the cone and it would propably just cause lots of squeeky feedback.
Any thoughts on this?
-----
"One fun thing to do with it was using without an amp and just sitting there holding out notes forever."
Oh yes, imagine doing those long-sustaining solos on an acoustic. Creepy stuff :D
--------
Jimbo
Well...while not suggesting anyone read the whole sustainer thread...it's so long cause it's open to all ideas regarding sustain and covered a lot of ground, Ansils synth like sustain generating box, ebows, gizmotrons...and of course the old vibrating guitar idea....
Here's a link we looked at and some ideas I really tried...http://www.marksmart.net/gearhack/feedbackgen/feedbackgen.html
that's not me BTW...
An old trick in the studio has alway's been to jam your headstock against the speaker baffle of your amp to generate feedback sustain...Sustainiac's Model "C" acoustic sustainer is the same thing...a transducer fitted to the headstock...
I have to say,
I didn't have a lot of luck...it does kinda work...but then again...nothing like the electromagnetic string driver idea, which is a lot more elegant...IMHO. Some reported having more luck by placing the speaker on the headstock...you certainly could put a lot more power into it as you're well away from the pickups and got a lot more flex and leverage on the strings...must look a bit weird...and it does make a bit of a racket, it's not silent...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the acoustic thing...yeah, it doesn't need to be plugged in to get sustain :wink: . I don't have a electro acoustic but I imagine if you mounted one of these small drivers in the soundhole like a magnetic pickup sometimes is, you could probably drive it with the piezo output...Not been tried
yet but there is a guy about to with some graphtec piezo bridge saddles on a fretless guitar.
I also have a project planned for a DIY piezo "buzzer" mounted to the bridge on this test strat...that's what the other knob is for on the test strat... :wink: . I'll do some tests to see if this output is ok to drive the sustainer circuitry...
So a sustainer/acoustic is a distinct possibility...it really would change the way you could compose for the instrument. It would take a lot of technique (a la Tuck Andress) but you realise that, like the ebow the sustainer can generate notes from nothing (no picking) they just swell up when a pitch is fretted, especially with the bass strings.
The track
clean chords (thanks
Doug H)hints at that...imagine developing a style where you play a walking bass line with a bowed sustained effect (sans picking) with a melody, chord or lead above it...on an acoustic, if you like...so many musical possibilities...
And really that's what's driving the sustainer project...the musical possibilities...someone is going to make some beautiful and amazing stuff with this kind of device...my role is to facilitate it by helping to make it as widely available as possible...
Meanwhile, us
mortals with lesser technique can just have a whole lotta fun.... :lol:
pete(r)Oh....
Bernardduur...sounds like Ansil's Sustainer Mod...kind of works a bit different...it's a kind of inductive compression type of effect...poor Ansil's copped a bit of flak for that and moved on to better things...worth a go if you're into experimenting, and that's what it's about really....
Quote from: SomicideI would so love to put on in my guitar, but alas... I have an EMG setup.
Jeff
You may still be in luck....
A PG member Tim/onelastgoodbye is...not only a fantstic graphic artist/designer (check out his amazing 3D realizations in the early 30pp pf the sustainer thread)...but is actively working on making drivers like mine, and plays an EMG equiped guitar.... :lol:
At the moment he's a bit busy designing the most amazing toaster (hi Tim :wink: ) but has made several drivers...you'll have to find his posts.
The driver does not have to sit on the pickup...everyone else is making independant drivers...here's a pic of a couple of mine...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/driverphoto2.jpg)
The thin one is about 4mm thick and 10mm wide...it's identical to the one on the pickup used on those tracks. You can see on the bottom a few little Neodyminium magnets in an attempt to make it smaller...these could also be incorporated into the core of the coil (replacing the blade) which would make the wole thing very slim...possibly slim enough to fit under the strings without having to cut into the guitar (the wires could enter via the pickup route)...
Tim has experimented with the magnetic core thing too with success...his drivers (and circuit) are not quite the same (thicker wire, looser windings, etc) as mine and he's experienced a few problems (squeeling...) but these are not related to the EMG's...
So...the pickup driver...neat as it is...is only one way to install it, and EMG's don't necessarily restrict you...find a suitable place for the driver, now that may be a problem.... :wink:
Some nice replies....thanks...very encouraging and helpful...I hope my answers encourage and help you in return...
pete(r)
Quote from: Peter Snowberg
While it is a goody, the 386 is as old as the hills and there are lots of other little amp chips available these days with pop-less operation.
OK...so I've done a search here...can't seem to find anything on class D amps or a suitable replacement for the LM386
So...I did a search...
so..many...c.h.i.p.s... :shock:
So...I'm back again....
found things like this...
NCP2820 Features Optimized PWM Output Stage: Filterless Capability
Efficiency up to 90% and Low 2.5mA Typical Quiescent Current
Large Output Power Capability: 1.4W with 8Ω Load and THD+N<1%
Wide Supply Voltage Range: 2.5-5.5V Operating Voltage
High Performance, THD+N of 0.03%@Vp=5V, RL=8Ω, Pout=100mW
Excellent PSRR (-65dB): No Need for Voltage Regulation
Surface Mounted Package 9-Pin Flip-Chip CSP (SnPb and Pb-Free)
Fully Differential Design. Eliminates Two Input Coupling Capacitors
Very Fast Turn On/Off Times with Advanced Rising and Falling Gain Technique
External Gain Configuration Capability
Internally Generated 250kHz Switching Frequency
Short Circuit Protection Circuitry
Pop & Click Noise Protection Circuitry Application Cellular Phone
Portable Electronic Devices
PDAs and Smart Phones
Portable Computer
The NCP2820 is a cost-effective mono Class-D audio power amplifier capable of delivering 2.65W of continuous average power to 4 Ohm Bridge Tied Load from a 5V supply. Under the same conditions, the output power stage can provide 1.4W to a 8 Ohm BTL load with less than 1% THD+N. For cellular handsets or PDAs, it offers sapce and cost savings because no output filter is required when using inductive transducers. With more than 90% efficiency and very low shutdown current it increases the lifetime of your battery and drastically lowers the junction temperature.
The NCP2820 processes analog inputs with a pulse width modulation technique that lowers output noise and THD when compared to a conventional sigma-delta modulator. The device allows independent gain while summing signals from various audio sources. Thus, in cellular handsets, the earpiece, the loudspeaker and even the melody ringer can be driven with a single NCP2820. Due to its low 42uV noise floor, A-weighted, a clean listening is guaranteed no matter the load sensitivity.
Sounds great...Ideal even...more than enough power...Only seems to come in some 9 pin SMD package...very small...read:
how'm I s'posed to solder the little bugger...Probably a minimum order...definitely not radio shack...
So...anyway, might need a little more advice on this one...sure the LM386 is old but what's it's typical replacement...?? In all the projects here and elsewhere (typically practice amps), I haven't yet seen anything...they all seem to use LM386's
So has anyone got any suggestions, seen anything on the forum or elsewhere that could set me on the right track...?
pete
so then, if i were able to find a way to seat it (low action, its an ibanez rg170, think I have maybe 5mm)) I could put it somewhere unobtrusive, and hmm.
it doesn't actually go to the putput, does it? It just keeps the strings vibrating?
PnL,
Jeff
that's right! :lol:
Is there any reason you couldn't put a secondary winding on a regular pickup, or just rewind a regular pickup?
Not sure what you mean PCS...
My Pickup/Driver combo is just that, a secondary winding on top of a regular pickup...
If you mean winding a driver coil over the top of the pickup windings...no I don't think that's a goer...too far from the core
If you mean winding an inner driver coil...quite possibly...want to have a go...it does mean a total rewind, not everybodies cup of tea...
As for rewinding a pickup as a driver...plenty of people have done this with success...I'm told! I tried it with limited success...possibly too thin winding wire to carry enough current....so not really conclusive.
It will work...again you're sacrificing a pickup to do it...most of the guy's doing this do seem to be using pickup mags and such. The blade design is pretty important if you want to bend strings. I did make a very good one out of a super cheap pickup now that I think of it and is pictured next to the slim driver earlier, worked very well but was a slimish pickup bobbin to begin with...
For various reasons the slim design has proven to be most successful. When people ask "is it really that simple...is that all there is to it", well you could check out the sustainiac circuit from the patent which runs to about 4 pages of schematic with AGC, phase correction, etc, etc,...but they are trying to address problems with the system inheirent in their driver designs...I believe...otherwise it's BS.
Lovekraft very early on suggested that I work on the driver design, not the circuitry, so that's what I've done...the solution may seem simple but the results from very basic circuitry is great...so either I'm on to something with the driver formula or I'm just lucky, but the super slim driver has performed better for everyone who's tried it, so what can I say...go figure...
pete
Excited...You Bet....
Ok...it's only 10 mins old but I couldn't wait to show it to you all...
Here it is...the new...portable, psw guitar sustainer test kit....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/LPSustainer.jpg)
Modeled here on my black beauty, lounging on the couch...there's a black box plugged into the guitar (with a battery clipped to it's side, and red LED)...an amp lead so you can hear the thing, from the box...a driver attached to the neck pickup of the guitar (blade pole), lowered to accomodate it, and simply by the power of the pickup's magnet...
So, already it's shown that with a guitar like this (PAF style humbuckers) the sustain is insane.... :twisted:
This setup duplicates what's in the low powered strat, same driver (sans pickup) same circuit but on this guitar...only the tiniest amount of power is required...on a control from 1-10...about 0.5...!!!!
Lp=big fat sustain...LP with sustainer=big fat sustain, forever...!!! :P
Who knows how long a battery'd last with this amount of power going to it.... :lol:
Anyway...couldn't wait to let it be known...even the "pop" is less, and only on turn on!!! I didn't even need to disconnect the neck pickup, just used the selector to turn it off...go figure...!!!!
pete
so will you be releasing a PDF or something on building this baby? It'd be killer on a particular song of mine!
-PnL,
Jeff
Here's another pic showing some mods to it...I've added two trim pots for preamp and poweramp gain...seems as if I need to calm the thing down...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/sustainbox.jpg)
The important thing to see is the size of the driver...that's where the magic lies. It's 3.5mm deep (slim), 12mm wide and the core is 3mm steel.
As for the amp...still open to suggestions...I'm sure it could be better and certainly smaller...
For info on some of the stuff I've been trying...check out the sustainer thread for a really long post....
oh...Somicide...since you seem keen...I recall you have EMG's as my friend Tim (on the other side of the world) does...I asked a couple of questions about EMG's that you could look into over there too...I could have some ideas for you... :idea:
EMG's are really just preamped conventional pickups (so I believe) in which case, if the magnetic field is comparitable to other pickups, this kind of "driver top" may just as easily work for you...as they're already preamped, there's no loading from the poweramp, so it may be possible to dramatically shrink and simplify the circuitrt, and of course, you've already got at least one battery on board...could be you've got the perfect set up for this thing...give me some clues and we'll see what we can do...!!!
enjoy, and good night...
psw
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Snowberg/diy/bootsy.gif) Congratulations! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/Snowberg/diy/bootsy.gif)
Fantastic work!
I've never played with class D amps, but they look interesting enough for the efficiency.
I would find something in a larger package. :lol: That's a flip-chip which the size of the actual semiconductor die. It's only 0.057" square. BGAs like that flip-chip are the only things I have not been able to solder with a regular iron. Most tiny SMDs are really easy and take only a fraction of the time it takes to install DIPs.
I picked out a bunch of amp chips in my surfing, but I had different selection criteria so my list is somewhat useless unless you want a list of what's second best for your project. ;)
You want something with pop-less power up, BTL output, externally selectable gain, and a package like SOIC-8 or even SSOP-8. Class D is an option if you're adventurous but AB is just fine.
For batteries, check out Spark Fun (http://www.sparkfun.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cart=325221&cat=87&). If you can get operation down to 3.6V or so you can use a lithium-polymer battery. Option 2 would be a pair or trio of NiMH AA cells. The energy density of both of these options is huge in comparison to a 9V.... well at least if you don't use 9V lithium cells.
For SMD soldering, look at Spark Fun's article about their "reflow skillet".
For getting chips, use http://www.digikey.com . I just went there, searched for "audio amp", looked in "Amplifiers - Audio(528 items)" in the ICs section, and then filtered by case style for SOIC-8.... that brought it down to 102 items in 5 pages. I've never used it, but take a look at the TI TPA701 series. Th shutdown input reduces drain to 1.5 NANOAMPS which is so far below the self-discharge of the battery that you could consider it "off".
Thanks Peter...I checked out a few things...again, so many chips.... :?
Anyway...looked at the TPA721...looks pretty promising...
One problem has been preamplification with the circuit designs. A raw LM386 really loads the signal down...while my preamp is fine, it's almost twice the size of the LM386 section...
So...looking at the TPA721...will this require a preamp do you think...I'm not sure if this is the relavant bit of the .pdf, but...QuoteGiven that the TPA721 is a MOS amp, the input impedance is high...recommended effective impedance seen by the inverting node of the amp be set between 5kohm-20kohm...
If not...are there any amps that can drive speaker loads and accept a guitar's input without loading, or have their own preamp built in???
BTW...this is to anyone...not just Peter
peteOh...here's one...what about a TDA7052...looks good, low external parts and DIL pack for DIY'ers but same questions apply re: pre-amp...any thoughts...?
(http://www.electronic-kits-and-projects.com/images/3000/q3027.jpg)
would there be any negative effects if i wired up this circuit to a regular single coil pickup? i have a few epiphone coils from some old humbuckers, each coil is about 6k with individual poles and i have the alnico magnets to match. maybe ill give it a try.
Um...I'm not sure quite what you mean...a bit tired lately, sorry...
By the way, I think I saw your nic' over at PG...if your new over there, welcome and join in on the discussion on the sustainer thread there...
So...you've got some old pickups...humbuckers, yeah...and you want to do what...Hook them up??
Now...if you wanted to strip the wire off the bobbin (if that's what you mean) yes you could... However, I'd suggest blocking up the bottom half or more of the bobbin to create a slim coil at the top...see how slim my driver is above...like that... You could use the other coil as a single coil...
However, you'll be destroying a perfectly good pickup. You could simply make a driver coil like mine above, and stick it to the top of the pickup and install it, or (as I'm now working on) just stick it on your guitars existing neck pickup...
Remember the guitar must be wired so that when the sustainer is on, only the bridge pickup is on. You cant drive it from the other coil of the humbucker (too close) or the coil the driver's installed on...
Anyway...have I got the question right..? Oh and the blade style is kind of necessary if you do a lot of string bending (more important than with a pickup)...
This brings up something I wanted to mention...It doesn't seem to be the circuitry that's daunting to most (even those who've never been burnt by an 'iron) it's the coil winding...
Really this is a shame, for about A$7 (US$5) you'll pickup a coil of choke winding wire (0.2mm), enough to make a whole bunch of coils. This stuff is thin but not that thin that it will break when hand winding (about 200 turns) or soldering...it's really quite strong...not at all like pickup winding wire that's hair thin (0.063mm) and very fragile...
So my message is...it's not as bad as you might think to do, and cheap...plus if you stuff it up...you've got more to practice or experiment with...so the message is, don't be put off by the winding part...
Anyway...feel free to join in over at the Sustainer Thread and I'll return here as replies come up or developments occur...thanks for all your help guys and keep it up...
There may be some new sounds coming too with the new toy on another guitar...so stay tuned...
psw / pete
Quote from: guitarmonky55would there be any negative effects if i wired up this circuit to a regular single coil pickup? i have a few epiphone coils from some old humbuckers, each coil is about 6k with individual poles and i have the alnico magnets to match. maybe ill give it a try.
If I understand correctly, the reason you can't do this is that with a 6k pickup, you'd have an almost 7000:1 impedance mismatch to your 8Ohm LM386 chip, which might give you some SME faults. :shock:
Doh... :? ...it's so clear when you quoted it...it's that question again. as it clearly states...oops, thanks PCS... :wink:
Yes...as, I've had to explain over and over...while they are both coils of wire and look similar...a DRIVER is NOT a PICKUP...
The driver really is the key...and unless there's enough demand that I make my own one man sweatshop...the only way to get one is to make it yourself... :wink: ...hence DIY Sustainer.... :)
You might even need to make a few to get it right, but it doesn't take a lot of wire so a small spool will give you enough to practice with till you get it just right...join the sustainer thread at PG for more specific info on building them...
psw
i still dont understand wat this sustainer is all about, are there any schematics to look at? that would help me understand it better thanks
OK...one of the reasons, if not the main reason the sustainer thread is 63 pages long is that I have to go over this again and again...that's not to get cranky over it...I can type...you guys are newer to it...so here's the skinny...
As I said here earlier...
QuoteThe principle is simple...
bridge pickup->preamp->LM386 amp->phase switch->driver coil
It's getting the formula right that's the hard bit...but that's where you benifit from all my work on this though, isn't it...if I don't share it, what's the point, right... :wink:
Anywhoo...This is how I tend to look at it and explain it...
A speaker is a coil of wire in a magnetic field...voltages from an amplifier causes electromagnet energy to be created by this coil which is either attracted to, or repelled by this magnetic field...this causes the speaker cone to move which moves the air which allows us to hear...that's pretty easy, right...
Now...the driver is simply a coil of wire but instead of moving a speaker cone...it's moving the strings. This movement is "heard" by the pickup which sends a signal to the driver, which moves the strings
which is picked up by the pickup which...
and round and round it goes...endlessly... This is a feedback loop...
Now a pickup is designed to sense tiny variations in a magnetic field caused by the metal strings movement through it...it uses thousands of turns of very fine wire to produce tiny signals to the amplifier...
The driver is coil has much thicker wire to carry a comparatively huge voltage and has to generate enogh power to physically move the strings...not just sense them...
So that's the difference...
Now, it appears that prior to my work (not withstanding the ebow which is different again as it can be moved along the string and only works on one string at a time) people have approached the "sustainer" from a "schematic mentality". That is they have sought out efficiencies with all kinds of phase correction electronics and such...hmmm
Unfortunately...or fortunately, as it happens, ...I'm no electronics genius (as is pretty apparent)...so, although I explored the ideas, I was encouraged to look at the drivers rather than the circuitry...
Now, "arts & crafts" I can do...so after much experimentation, I found that certain things work better than others and this has lead (amoungst other things) to the design I'm currently hocking...a slim, compact driver coil design...very well potted... 8)
So In hope that helps...
Now...the sustainer thread is at...
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&pid=209472&st=930&#entry209472
There's a tutorial showing one guys work and some schematics at....
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984
And...the Sustainer Sounds can be found at...
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=17852
I'm working on more sounds featuring the LP through the "sustain box" testing device...so look out for that in the near future...So...I hope that helps...appreciate feedback on these posts BTW...keeps me interested, you know... :wink:
psw
well ill just build one then. as im sure you noticed over at pg(yes im there too :P ) im working on my first pickup right now, and made some nifty little bobbins. doesnt sound too intimidating for me, im a loser longhaired highschooler on summer vacation without a car. ive got tons of time and the patience to boot.
Great...just what we need, someone to make bobbins...here's a tip, I used the plastic from folders and I've used cardboard reinforced and laminted with glue...have a good look at the photo's of my bobbins and the pictorial showing how I winded the pickup/driver...same thing...
The bobbings the hardest part, hand winding the coils like 20mins worth tops...!!!...for a novice... :wink:
pete
psw- from what I understand, the EMGs (mine at least) are low impedence into a preamp that gives high impedence output. each pickup has it's on internal preamp, and all 3 pickups run from one 9v battery. That's all I know about em, other than they have a very versatile sound.
PnL,
Jeff
it's very interesting, i can't wait to build my own
but i'm still thinking where to find a piece of steel to use as the coil core... any suggestions?
tranks!
Sure thing...gak
The last couple of driver's I just cut up a 3mm bar of ordinary (softish)steel I bought at the hardware store...however any kind of steel you have hanging about the place would work. I just used a hacksaw with the metal secured in a vice to roughly the right size, then a grinder holding it in pliers (have some water handy as it gets hot and dont try and hold it in your fingers if you're grinding)...putting it in a vice and using a grinding stone in a dremel or drill will work just as well...watch oout for sparks...
You could also laminate the core out of thinner sheets of thin metal (galvanised iron used in plasterboarding, for instance) but it would need to be epoxied together somehow...
Basically...a little dumpster diving should find something if you don't want a couple of metres of the stuff left over when you're done.... :wink:
You need to round the ends...the windings will also need to be protected from shorting on the steel with electrictrians tape and some coating (nail varnish?) on the exposed blade to prevent rusting...
Anyway, check out the tutorial and the pictorial of my driver over at PG there's a little more to it (potting, etc) and the bobbin design...the thing is still developing so any ideas you have on building the thing will be appreciated...some of this you'll just need to find your own way...but we really are talking "arts & crafts" here...the imagination is the hard part...
Ideally, and I'll eventually be doing this...the whole driver will be molded in epoxy...it will look like an EMG or something...and is the ultimate solution..... :wink:
Speaking of EMG's...Somicide...I was really asking about how strong the magnetic field is and whether it's strong enough to simply place the driver on top...It's debateable, you could try it...basically Tim (over at PG) recently reported that he felt the MagF was about half normal strength...is this enough?...won't know till somebody has a go...
Sorry that I'm having to answer questions on the fly...still developing so many aspects of the thing...there isn't a difinitive way, yet...I really, really need some others to go all the way and make this thing to confirm my results, too. It's all very well that I can make 'em (a few other's have done too...) but being the only one with a fully functioning "guitar", as such...means I'm a little on my own...somebody, please, catch up.... :wink:
How about a little friendly competition...can a DIYstomp member build one and successfully install it, before a PG member (other than me) does...??? :twisted:
psw
the magnetic field of EMGs is muuuuch weaker than a passive pickup; you can put the strings much closer to the pickups without them being pulled on too much.
EDIT:
I figure, should I be able to get the materials, I cn fit one between my single coil and my neck humbucker. what are the dimensions of yours, and could I make it smaller, not the width of it but... whatever dimension it would be to make it fit between my pickups. About how tall is one of these? 5mm you said earlier, no?
PnL,
Jeff
See this is the thing, isn't it...every guitar's different...
So...It sounds like you've got 3 pickups 2xHB & a SC in the mid?
The driver really does seem to work better as close to the neck as possible...I was able to the drive the strings of my LP holding it above the 'inside' of the neck pickup (bridge side...but you're getting a bit close to the bridge 'source' pickup...this might be a problem...
It's down to a bit of experimenting, if you're up to it...I really can't predict the results till a few people have tried it...
Now...As for the size of things...you're likely to have to make a few to get something right...
My driver is 12mm wide and 3.5mm deep...but then you have to add a magnet...I tried some tiny Neodyminium batteries (2mm) thick (see pic) and it did work...Now, if you were to put the magnets inside the core (instead of the steel)...say a row of 11-12...the whole thing might only be 3-4mm thick...
The size also depends on your skill and ingenuity...I used very thin bobbin material...reinforced with cardboard during the winding process so that it wouldn't bend...there's some pics of that too on the thread... It's not hard to do...but then I've spent the last year or so winding coils of various types and working with very small things...it's possible that I find it easier than others will...
On the "tutorial", G Mike made his using cut up CD cases...but, your looking a 4mm of dead material right there...that's one of the reasons I've used thin stuff...once the potted coil is dry, it'll hold it's own shape...I dare say if you used epoxy, you could remove the bobbin altogether once it's dry...it's all up to your "arts & crafts" ability really.... :wink:
First off...do some measurements and plan out what you need to fit in there, what will look acceptable...then make it to that size...and good luck... 8)
psw
Oh...and switching "might be a problem with all those PUp's...or maybe not...again, it's try it to see...won't know if you don't have a go...!!!!
One other thing...it might be possible to add a lightly magnetised driver to the top of the neck EMG...the only proviso would be that Neodyminium mags might demagnetise it and it might increase the pickups power (It'll be lower so not necessarily bad) and effect the tone...in a bad way????
see, those neodymiums are what scare me about putting them on top of my emgs, I don't wanna demagnetize any of em, not for how much they cost ;).
I can always build it into a passive guitar, just don't have one right this second, but I will soon. thanks psw for the dimensions, I should be able to do this provided i get supplies!
PnL,
Jeff
Quotesee, those neodymiums are what scare me about putting them on top of my emgs, I don't wanna demagnetize any of em, not for how much they cost .
I understand...but neodyminium's are just one kind of magnet...
How much extra (if any) is required is still open till someone has a go...
You can get pretty small ceramic magnets (perhaps even in a craft shop...for making fridge magnets...not the flex strips though) that would provide the energy and pose no
risk at all to the pickup...
Of course, no
risk does not imply good
tone...how such a strategy (lowering the pickup and increasing it's magnetic field) would effect the tone is an open question...
There is some
subjective...(ie
my ears)...evidence from my strat that the mod actually improved the tone of my strat pickup...very subtley. Slightly more body or something and more even response with bent strings due to the higher mass blade design. It certainly wasn't an adverse effect on the tone and it really is (if it's there at all)
very subtle! The point is that it certainly didn't have any
adverse effects on this particular pickup...
Other pickups...who knows...I'm doing some work with a 2xHB LP guitar at the moment...it's very hard to tell without a specially made prototype and I don't have
any worthwhile info on the effects yet on lowering and extendeing the poles of a conventional Humbucker on it's tone...
The only thing I
can say is that the
driver works in this configuration (on top of one of the HB's coils) does work...but the
installed version is far superior than the test setup so it's very hard at the moment to really say why.
From a
player's perspective...a naturally sustaining guitar like a LP has less of a
need for a "Sustainer". Perhaps it needs an
anti-sustainer!!!! It's far more rewarding to have a twangy guitar that can switch to infinite sustain than a sustaining guitar that switches to even more sustain...IMHO...
Anyway...sent a few little sound bytes to be posted so they'll be another taster soon...
psw
a few more...SUSTAINER SOUNDS...posted
here's the sustainer sounds link
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=17852&pid=209223&st=0&#entry209223
here's the sustainer thread link
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&st=930&p=210026&#entry210026
enjoy... :lol:
psw
Hey there...I've been following both your pg threads and this one...and first off, would like to thank you! I know a lot of people who would just go out and keep all this for themselves, but it's really nice to see how much you're helping everybody! THANKS!!!
Now...on to my question:
This is what I've got...A squier Jagmaster body that I've just filled to make top routed. I want to put two humbuckers in it, and if possible a sustainer. I basically was thinking that by routing it like a jem (JEM (http://www.ibanez.co.jp/world/products/eg/pict_big/JEM77B_RMR_00_01.jpg)) I could have two humbuckers and have the single coil slot filled with a sustainer.
Now...the thing is, I've read that the sustainer only works well if you have it placed near the neck, and use the bridge pickup...would it work with my setup?
Also, for building a driver...I do have a leftover tone-like-mud stock squier humbucker from my guitar, and wanted to know If I could just rewind that to make it into a sustainer driver? (by using a spacer to make it so that the coil is only about 4 mm thick) This would mean my guitar would have two humbuckers for signals, and one more humbucker like pickup, that just had the thin driver coil (at 4ohms).
Thanks for any help!
Cheers,
Nish
psw,
WELL DONE!!!!!
You've successfully solved the MAIN MAGNETIC SUSTAINER PROBLEM - installation it to the instruments without any mods of the guitar. Great!
Please note: your idea of the FLAT driver is actually valuable idea. I venture to strongly recommend you to apply for the patent - it can give you quite big $$$$.
Good luck!
Thanks...QuoteYou've successfully solved the MAIN MAGNETIC SUSTAINER PROBLEM - installation it to the instruments without any mods of the guitar. Great!
Well, not
quite...it's
not as good as an install. For the reasons, see the post on the main "Sustiner" thread above the latest Sounds post (link above)
QuotePlease note: your idea of the FLAT driver is actually valuable idea. I venture to strongly recommend you to apply for the patent - it can give you quite big $$$$.
I'm proud of it...it's not only practical but works better in that shape... :wink:
However at $35,000 plus legal fees to defend it, a US patent is out of the question. I certainly wouldn't mind if someone would like to "buy" the idea...a pickup maker for instance...but there's been not a nibble! (still no one's told me to "cease and desist" and I'm sure by now that they're aware of my work!)
There is some reasoning to my free disclosure though. By making the idea "open source" so to speak I can publically lay "prior claim" to the innovation. I still appear to be at the forefront of the concept (till you guy's catch up) so it would be difficult for others to patent it without my involvement.
Of course
I don't have exclusivity, but then I don't have any $$$$. The worst case really is that a whole bunch of DIY'ers will have free reign with the concept.
BTW...I haven't disclosed
everything...I've still got some tricks up my sleeve, but not the skill or $$ to enact them. Perhaps there will one day be an official PSW sustainer available for those who don't wish to DIY!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK....
sir_modulus Making a "Sustainer Guitar" is a good way to go...sounds like a good choice of instrument for it too...and you're clearly not adverse to a few mods to it.... :wink:
QuoteNow...the thing is, I've read that the sustainer only works well if you have it placed near the neck, and use the bridge pickup...would it work with my setup?
The sustainer
doesn't work well in the mid position for a few reasons, the main one being the proximity of the driver to the source pickup (the bridge). So, the mid pickup slot is not a good choice of location, sorry.
I could develop something that would work really well in your guitar...but then it wouldn't be DIY then would it?...it'd be PSW did it himself!!! I'm happy to make suggestions and there may come a time when I actually build them for people, however....
I would
suggest a separate "discreate" driver right up as close to the neck as possible. I'd make it a little taller (4-5mm deep coil vs. my 3mm ones). This would allow it to have less width (probably about 8mm with practice) and could be disguised in some kind of spiffy casing (I'd form a silver aluminium "can" filled from behind with epoxy). I'd use magnets within the core to save on extra depth. (oh...maybe that's a product...doh...shhh...secret, secret.....)
This driver could sit very close to the neck followed by the neck pickup. I wouldn't scrap a HB to make it...better to make a proper purpose built "blade" design. I know the idea of making a bobbin seems to put people off, but if you've got the balls to fill a squire and top rout pickups, you could do this, eh!
So, for your project, I'd suggest that you put together the "sustainer(r)(c)" before commiting yourself to the routing and test it out...then you'll know what you're dealing with...
Anyway...thanks for the feedback, it all helps...psw
Lol...thanks for the compliment...I filled it with polyfill(think drywall/cement...) too...so now it's 12lbs... :lol:
Now...I think I can deal with it right next to the neck..now the thing is...I'm a bit confused about the driver.
The way I see it..it's like a sandwich of steel!
--------- plastic or whatever
+++++ Steel core
--------- plastic again
Now...I'm confused about where the magents go/how many etc. I'm also confused about the connection between the top layer and the core. Is the core just sitting there? and have a solid layer of plastic? is there just a whole in the plastic, and the core shows through (for the "blade"), or do I have to make a whole in the plastic, and grind the core so the blade is higher than the rest of the core, and the top of the blade and the plastic are the same level...
sorry if that's confusing....thanks for all your help!!
Cheers,
Nish
psw, i'd like to say 'well done' to you too !
DDD just draw my attention to this topic, and I think your
idea of flat driver is a pretty good.
Actually, i've built my sustainer (called Dizzy Feedback Machine)
about a year ago. It's a magnetic sustainer, and driver placed
in the MIDDLE position of plain strat. Moverover, it work
with any combination of pickups - neck single, bridge humbacker,
neck+bridge.
Current draw is a about a 5 ma in standy (and about
a 30-50 ma during play).
Then I started my project, there was virtually no info nowhere.
So it take about two years to make a real good device.
Quotesorry if that's confusing....
It's confusing...sorry...
The driver is just like a pickup...a bit of steel in the middle with a coil wrapped around it. I don't think it would matter much if the steel sticks out through a hole...mine does. I would make the bobbin thin though. The bobbin (the plastic bit) is only there to hold the wire on really...it has no other functional purpose...but the "driver" has to be as close to the strings as possible...a thick bobbin on top of the steel is not in keeping with this...
pete
you've got it dead on! thanks! So now...if I made this driver...I just make small cap for it like a tele neck pickup? what should this cap be made of? Will that interfere with the dirver?
Cheers,
Nish
that's right...look at some of my hex designs...I pushed thin aluminium (flashing) over a shape to make it...aluminium is non-magnetic...but a tele pickup cover might work... 8)
QuoteActually, i've built my sustainer (called Dizzy Feedback Machine)
about a year ago.
Great...now the details...maybe a pic...amp, driver style, the works...cough up... :wink:
pete
psw-
I haven't been keeping up on the sustainer thing too much lately, but I just listened to those soundclips - nice work. Good on you mate! 8)
psw:
The driver is a much like Sustainiac bilateral driver.
Signal from pickups goes to buffer with a very
high impedance, then to a complicated phase
and amplitude correction scheme, to
a AGC circuit and finally to the power amp (lm386, heh).
No a fundamental/harnonic mode because of
placement of driver. Just a some mixed mode -
harmonics on most bass strings and fund. on
high strings. Varying picking style and switching
to different pickup combintation, i got a different
harmnonics.
Picture of pickup in da place: http://home.planetahost.ru/~firewood/driver.jpg
Sound sample (a theme from some great comp game of the
past): http://home.planetahost.ru/~firewood/diablo_theme.mp3 (1.44 Mb). Almost all notes of the lead were picked with left hand only.
Thanks Dizzy...great stuff...
BTW...it didn't take two years to do the DIY sustainer...it was those darn ultraminiture hex drivers...
I tried the mid position and it worked...mess' with the harmonics but I'm not quite sure why...you can see why I wonder in the sustainer thread on my last post. Basically, I've had very focused hex drivers operating within a cm from the pickups, and at the bridge....!!!
I just don't have what it takes to all that phase correction stuff. Instead, I've been developing the driver side of things to work with a very simple amplifier circuit. I know it looks simple...and it is...but it's getting the right kind of simple that's the key. Just check out the posts of all the"look I got a coil of wire, why doesn't it work" posts...it's a simple formula, but a formula nonetheless... :roll:
cheers...I'll have to check the sounds later...psw
psw, ok. i'll check thread you mentioned later.
What about a current consumption and parasitic
feedback in your design ? All the notes
could be sustaned - even most high ones ?
And the driving force - is it virtually same for all
strings ?
If you wanna make a high efficiency device, I sure
there is now way to go without amplitude and
PHASE corrections.
Heh. My first attemp sustainer was working after
week - 150 ma current draw, two 9-volt batteries
and rewinded single very hungry for parasitic
feedback :-)
And it took two years to smooth thing out :-)
Wow, you've smoothened it out alright... amazing sound clip you have there. Very balanced sustain and feedback.
It looks like we have two ways to approach this: either all electronic and digital, or extra careful driver design.
I'm not saying anything against digital, I actually love to hear it working. Any schenatic, or at least a block diagram of your device, Dizzy? What did you use for phase control?
----------
Jimbo
Both driver and electronic are equally important, I would say.
To have a working system one must design a proper driver.
And to have an _efficient_ system, goos electronic part is a must.
Sorry, I can't post schematic now - it has a
some potential commercial value :-)
About block diagram: the signal from pickup generic pickup
switch goes to high impedance buffer, then to the amplitude/phase
correction stage, to AGC and to the lm386 power amp.
Now phase correction. You have to compensate
phase shifts (lags) intruduced by pickup, circuit and driver - then
strings will be driven almost in-phase. The lesser overall
phase shift, the better performance on the whole system.
You have to make an amplitude correction also - to make
sure the higher strings accept more driving force.
My phase correction circuit is based on plain active
filters. Emphasis should be put on 'phase shift vs frequency' characteristics, not 'amplitude vs frequency' as usual.
Quote from: Dizzy_Onepsw:
The driver is a much like Sustainiac bilateral driver...
No a fundamental/harnonic mode because of
placement of driver. Just a some mixed mode -
harmonics on most bass strings and fund. on
high strings. Varying picking style and switching
to different pickup combintation, i got a different
harmnonics.
Picture of pickup in da place: http://home.planetahost.ru/~firewood/driver.jpg
Sound sample (a theme from some great comp game of the
past): http://home.planetahost.ru/~firewood/diablo_theme.mp3 (1.44 Mb). Almost all notes of the lead were picked with left hand only.
I hadn't got a chance to hear the sound clip till now...well done, a few too many overdubs to hear what the raw effect is like...but excellent!
I'd be interested to know how you went building the bilateral driver (I'm familiar with the patent) and whether there's any negative effects from the crossover between coils (say bending the g string into d string territory) and whether the bi-lateral design causes some inconsistancy of harmonic/fundumental response (ie high strings opposite low, etc).
Do you have a harmonic switch?
How does it go with chords?
Do you run the circuitry direct from the selector (ie using whatever pickup is on at the time) or a direct line from the bridge pickup?
Do you get any "pops" or other noise from the system (eg EMI signals being picked up by the other pickups?
Sound's great and looks really neat. If people are interested in the "schematic" approach to phase problems and such you may wish to look at the patents by Hoover (sustainiac) and Floyd Rose (similar but easier, earlier approach.
As for my DIY sustainer...there's some more designs and pics from some others and there seems to be quite a few people coming forward with this project.
The advantages of the DIY sustainer is it's simplicity. There are aspects of the "slim" driver idea that make it a more practical DIY project. It's very compact, single easy to wind coil, very simple circuitry...
I really cant say what the battery consumption is like but it will go for a fairly long time...some say theirs go for a
real long time...The circuitry would certainly be on a par...pickup power has quite an influence on it I seem to have found...
My idea has certainly been to concentrate on the driver and while it is very simple, when you mess with the design principles, as people have found lately, it does not respond or work as it should.
My simple driver design really was born out of a desire to address the problems of phase difference, etc without having to deal with corrective circuitry. To that end, it works and is vastly different from the patented designs which seem to be modelled after conventionally sized pickups and complicated circuitry...which is understandably, secret :wink:
Anyway, thanks for showing of the dizzy machine...tre cool... 8) You wouldn't want to post the clip and pic over there by chance? :)
Check out the Sustainer thread for more people's sustainer attempts..
sustain on...
psw
Laright, I got myself a roll of 0.2mm wire, it seems to be a pretty good one to drive all the strings equally but it still doesn't drive the strings hard enough to pass the infinite feedback limit. Could it be that my too long connection wires cause a too long delay and mess with the phasing. I can't seem to track the problem.
----------
Jimbo
Anyone? :?
----------
Jimbo
I feel out of place asking this... its quite nubby amidst all this talk... but...
How in the hell do you measure the resistance of your wrapping wire as you go??? :P Seriously... how do i know when i've got about 8 ohms? do you strip measure and tape/heatshrink every so often or wha? :?
I just scrape the stuff off, measure and wind on. There is very little chance of your "checking points" touch each other if you don't check with every winding. Go for about 100 turns, check, then go on for as much as you need (by using simple maths).
----------
Jimbo
Quote from: JimRaydenLaright, I got myself a roll of 0.2mm wire, it seems to be a pretty good one to drive all the strings equally but it still doesn't drive the strings hard enough to pass the infinite feedback limit. Could it be that my too long connection wires cause a too long delay and mess with the phasing. I can't seem to track the problem.
----------
Jimbo
I had a really good, and typically long answer but the remote service I was using dropped out and I lost everything...oh well...
You seem to have progressed anyway...but...
Keep the leads short and the driver leads should be ideally twisted to help with EMI. You should also keep them away from pickups and wiring (even if shielded) as much as you can.
Think of the driver leads as simply extensions of the driver coil, which in fact they are! Short and twisted is best. Wires from the circuits to pots and switches etc also carry signals and if they are of any significant length should be shielded and kept as clear as possible from the driver leads...
I don't think that they would really have much effect on phasing. A very thin wire may not be able to carry the current required...but that would be a
very thin wire...
The whole phasing issue is real and Dizzy and the two manufacturers have dealt with it by compensation circuitry. My approach has been fundumentally different in that I have throughout the hex designs and others tried to approach the phasing issue from a electro-mechanical perspective.
That is, that it is in the
design of the drivers that minimises the phasing issues. The design of this one is deceptively simple...but I believe elegant and unique in it's approach.
So, NaBo...you use a multimeter to test from the start point of the coil to a position you've wound to by lightly sanding off the enamel coating. At first the resistance will build slowly but as you go on the coil will become bigger and other factors will lead to the resistance rapidly rising.
So, Jim's right...wrap to about 100 turns but someone said they had to wind approximately 200 turns. It depends on your winding style, tightness, potting method but particularly the bobbin and core size and material. The wire is very easy to handle, it's thin but wont break (unlike pickup wire) and 200 turns is easily done (a is easlier done) by hand.
Potting is crucial. I have used common PVA
while winding mine as it's very safe and will insulate the test points then finally covering this with electrical tape very tightly. There's a pictorial of the process on the thread. As you wind you will find that the ends where it turns are very tight...beware...but the longer sides can become loose and have a lot of air.
Push these sides in gently into the PVA as you go and make sure the sides are compacted and held in place while it dries. You do not want vibration in the driver coil as theres will create there own signals of interferance. PVA was chosen because it's safe and can be used while winding and allow this compaction as it dries.
Anyway...good luck anyone trying this...it's not hard, it just needs care and attention to these detail. The actual construction of the bobbin and the core is harder (although not difficult) than the winding and potting. It's the idea that's off putting, not the process...it's actually rather fun !
psw
I agree, too many overdubs - 'couse I'm loving it :-)
I could post raw sample, not a problem.
My first attempt was to built a single coil driver. But the
problem of parasitic feedback between pickups
and driver force me to try a different design.
I wanted to have a driver in middle position,
and it made a parasitic feedback problem much worse.
I've tried a different geometry of coils, configuration
of poles and so on. It worked for neck position,
not middle. So I decided to make a patented bilateral
driver :-)
Bending G-string in D-string position decrease driving force
slightly. A known drawback of bilateral design.
I have no harmonic switch. Harmonic/fundamental mode
depends heavily on picking style and pickup selector.
Say, then I get signal from neck pickup, strings excited
mostly in fundamental mode. And in harmonic mode
then using bridge pickup.
My system increase the sustain of chords, but after
a some time bass notes tend to dominate.
After a more time only one note will sound.
Mostly because my AGC system seem to prefer
bass notes.
Yes, I run circuit directly from selector, and feeding
it with signal from any pickup combination.
I have no noise, no pops - thanks to
the bilateral driver and big input
impedance. Dead quiet.
A small tip about phase response. There is a good
PC spectrum analyzer program called Spektralab.
Hook your sustainer to audiocard and Spektralab will plot
transfer function of you system - amplitude vs freq and phase
vs freq. Take a note which notes sustain good, which
bad and which not sustain at all, calculate their
frequences and find them on transfer function plot.
You will find some correlations for sure :-)
BTW, I'm fan of you slim pickup idea. Keep on
going ! :-)
Does anyone have a link to the actual Tautorial eh? i've searched for 2 days, and it all leads back to the sound clip thread....
If youse guys can help us blind ones out- i/we would be much obliged....
Quote from: YunDoes anyone have a link to the actual Tautorial eh? i've searched for 2 days, and it all leads back to the sound clip thread....
It is here:
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984
...
emre
Quote from: transientQuote from: YunDoes anyone have a link to the actual Tautorial eh? i've searched for 2 days, and it all leads back to the sound clip thread....
It is here:
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984
...
emre
Much obliged, my friend
Thanks Dizzy...great info...
The bi-lateral design is better in many respects...especially the parasitic feedback.
I believe that my driver's could be refined even further, based on the work I did on this with my hex drivers...to address the problem without going bi-lateral...
It's all a little ironic since I committed a year to stubbonly exploring the Hex (driver for each string) idea. The string bending was the real killer. I even had it developed to the point that it was supper small and could be constructed using modified off the shelf (cheap) miniture components...ie, no coil winding.
I believe that I will be able to improve the design without much trouble to work in the mid position. The thin design has many advantages but at it's heart it was trying to address the phase differences. I've posted some more thoughts over there today, but there really hasn't been a lot of work (besides my own screwing around) on alternative cores or the whole issue of EMI containment (or shunting) at least in practical (ie not theorising about it) experimentation. Such techniques however are common place in say transformer tecnology whth fantastic results so there's still plenty of room for future development!!!!
Cheers all...p
Hi to Dizzy_One and all diy stompers...
Just thought I'd say I've posted Dizzy's fabulous soundclip over at Project Guitar site...hope you don't mind Diz :wink:
Also, it came to mind because people seem to still be working on their own systems, the latest an attempt at a mid driver sustainer on an SG based on my concepts, so dizzy's mid driver came to mind...
cheers...psw
Hi,
I have some questions before building this great projet from PSW:
1) what is the diameter of the enamel wire I have to take ( in millimeter)
2) what kind of metal element I have to take to put the wire.
3) What in fact the best Preamp circuit for the driver? ruby, feltzer?
4) DO I have to do some modifications on the preamp circuit?
thanks
G'day mathflanQuote from: mathflan on October 30, 2005, 08:07:21 PM
I have some questions before building this great project from PSW:
1) what is the diameter of the enamel wire I have to take ( in millimeter)
2) what kind of metal element I have to take to put the wire.
3) What in fact the best Preamp circuit for the driver? ruby, feltzer?
4) DO I have to do some modifications on the preamp circuit?
Sorry for not replying sooner but....hey, read about it here along with this type of info and more...there's been quite a few people working on them with pics schem's and even circuit board plans...check it out at...
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&pid=239005&st=1065&#entry239005 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&pid=239005&st=1065&#entry239005)
also at the tutorial thing...
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984)
there's also some sound clips...
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=17852 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=17852)
Anyway, in short, your questions....
1)...0.2mm
2)...I used ordinary hardware soft steel, 3mm thick...basically anything magnetic...could layer thinner sheets, etc
3)...fetzer/ruby hybrid circuit is simple, small and has shown to work...I used a generic LM386 amp and preamp from kits...there's a nice circuit board graphic up just the other day...
4)...the preamp is really just there to stop loading and add gain for the amp to work efficiently. the stock Ruby doesn't really cut it but the fetzer/ruby has a greater gain ratio so should be fine...
I see you've already raised these questions over at the PG forum (page 69) but other's may be interested in hearing the answers...
best of luck...
pete
The sustainer thread at PG doesn't stop. More of these things are being made and there are pics to show how easy it is. The sustainer thread has now had over 30,500 visits and over 1000 contributions. It's 74 pages long so don't try and read it all, just check out the last couple of pages or the tutorial and stuff linked in the above post. Here is a couple of pics of the latest go at making one from member Randy:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/driver_top.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/driver_bottom.jpg)
Made from a steel core, CD cases and some tiny Rare earth Magnets. There are lots of different variations having been made of late and some interesting discussions going on about how to improve them or what's a better theoretical device. Feel free to join in!
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&pid=243063&st=1095&#entry243063 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&pid=243063&st=1095&#entry243063)
or ask questions here
psw
Maybe you have already tried this................
Don't turn the unit completely off..
I am assuming that your using true bypass and the pop is an arch in the switch from either the the clean signal or the sustainer signal or both. Defeating the circuit has worked for me on every project to date where I had a pop in the bypass switching.
And LED/LDR will also stop the pop (for sure) if an extra 300 or so ohms in your guitar signal won't screw things up for you. You need one LED/LDR for each throw on your switch, then there is no physical contact made to create an arch (pop). Also note that an LED/LDR does not completely turn either signal off when switching rather the off mode signals are decreased by say 1M but it is still an operating circuit.
You might be able to do this with a 4M resistor in-line with the signal coming out of an opam just before the pot. I turn my mixer channels off like that with no pop at all.
I have used both LED/LDR and big in-line resistors...both do sort of the same thing, which is not allow a charge to build up since the circuit is never completely off or completely bypassed.
Thanks a lot for that. I have tried a few things similar without a lot of success. Not very many people have done the full install yet. When I did (true it was a complex wired cheapo strat involving single coils) I had to use a large 4TDT switch to bypass select and power on. The pop is only when switching on. I have a feeling if the little preamp stage were always on the guitars earth would always be connected to power and this might help the situation...this stage could even be used to make the guitar active like the tillman preamp.
There are also more modern and efficient popless chips than the simple LM386 ruby type circuit that would address the problem. The big switch was required because I needed to lift both ends of the coils on the middle and neck pickup to avoid EMI noise from the driver. Lifting only one end was not enough. A good humbucker may not have been as suseptible and of course the strat has three pickups instead of the more common two.
Thanks for your interest though...the project does work as is but has to be adapted to the guitar in question a little. The only difference between this and a stompbox project is that it has to be built into and involves some modifications to the guitar and you have to litterally make the driver. This seems to be the stumbling block for most. Dispite it looking like a pickup and similar in principle, it is much easier to make than that. The wire is not fragile and can easily be wound by hand in about 10 minutes as it is only about 200 turns (rather than 1000's for a pickup with hair thin, hard to get wire). The example above is this fellows first go and experience of doing anything like this...and it looks the business.
The ultimate thing would be to have a dedicated sustainer guitar with only one bridge pickup and one neck driver. The switching, installation and everything would be much, much easier and potentially the space left by the removal of a neck Humbucker could easily accomodate both the driver (which is about 4mm thick) and all the circuitry, only requiring room to be found for the battery somewhere accessable.
I'd love someone to help devise a better circuit than the fetzer/ruby and potentially some clever fellow could devise some simple electronic switching to help with the bypass and wiring complexities too. Unfortunately a little out of my expertise. Thanks for the input...much appreciated...psw
Ok...perhaps some compression would help 'even' the strings out, making the small strings work better?
Something like put clipping diodes before the amp part [of course I don't that'll work with JFet Fetzer, perhaps splice someother clipper/booster in the front.
Only testing or theory can say whether distortion 'messes up' the string activation device, I believe if applied 'correctly' this could make the small and large strings respond less differently, keeping the overall volume output to the driver more 'same like' by keeping the amplitude 'evened over'.
Thanks petemoore.
The thread is so long because in the early days I was very consious that all the patented circuits had some kind of phase correction circuitry (although it's nature was not specific). This was to compensate for the lead and lag times between the driver's response (particularly on high strings/frequencies) and the signal. With fast movements it takes a while for the driver to magnetise in one direction, then change states to the other. With a fast moving string it may physically change states before the driver can respond...in other words be out of phase. With these drivers the signals from all the strings are fed into the one device. In truth the signal is clipped to a large degree by the circuit and the driver's inefficiencies. I have tried diodes, led's a compressor limiter and fuzz style preamps. There was not a lot of difference really I suspect because the circuit is already compressed and clipped as I say. (BTW i used a different pre& than the fetzer/ruby). Another idea was to cut of one side of the wave to give the driver time to recover between states.
So...it is not so much the relative "volume" of notes but the phase. The placement of the driver, the width of the "blade" core and such have a far bigger influence. I spent a lot of time on various Hex drivers...individual miniture drivers for each string. But they were still driven from a monophonic source. The current crop of designs are much easier to DIY. The concept is that the "thin driver" (3-4mm thick) and possibly a "narrow core", responds quicker to changes in states thereby allowing the thing to work without complicated phase compensation.
BTW...the device is polyphonic but favours the lowest tones. To sustain higher strings the lower ones must be dampened. On a chord, the bass note is the one that will feed back generally, the other's sound as normal. Now, this could perhaps be improved with better cleaner circuitry or filtering. The device is a little key biased too. If placed where the mid pickup generally is (24th fret) it will favour notes from the key of e minor (the open strings and their harmonic series) in the middle range of frequencies. There was recently some discussion of whether a wider core as in the above pictures would help in this regard. But I suspect the "narrow core theory" will prevail for other reasons.
Anyway...thanks for your interest...psw
Going on what I know about vibrating strings (I studied them at degree level ;) ), and Ideal amplifier in this situation would output a square wave signal, swinging from rail to rail. Some low pass filtering may be needed to tame some of the harmonics this would produce, but this would certainly be the most efficient driver.
To make the Ruby swing to rails, you could possibly leave pins 1 & 8 unconnected to allow full gain to be applied. A high impedance buffer will probably still be required to avoid loading the pickups. Cross talk from the driver to a neck pickup can be avoided by simply grounding the hot end of the coil. Power should not be turned on and off whilst the unit is in operation, as this will cause inductive spikes, hence the popping. There is simply no way around this.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head, which may already have been covered but I haven't had time to read that big ass thread!
Quote from: psw on December 15, 2005, 12:47:20 AM
Thanks a lot for that. I have tried a few things similar without a lot of success. Not very many people have done the full install yet. When I did (true it was a complex wired cheapo strat involving single coils) I had to use a large 4TDT switch to bypass select and power on. The pop is only when switching on. I have a feeling if the little preamp stage were always on the guitars earth would always be connected to power and this might help the situation...this stage could even be used to make the guitar active like the tillman preamp.
There are also more modern and efficient popless chips than the simple LM386 ruby type circuit that would address the problem. The big switch was required because I needed to lift both ends of the coils on the middle and neck pickup to avoid EMI noise from the driver. Lifting only one end was not enough. A good humbucker may not have been as suseptible and of course the strat has three pickups instead of the more common two.
Thanks for your interest though...the project does work as is but has to be adapted to the guitar in question a little. The only difference between this and a stompbox project is that it has to be built into and involves some modifications to the guitar and you have to litterally make the driver. This seems to be the stumbling block for most. Dispite it looking like a pickup and similar in principle, it is much easier to make than that. The wire is not fragile and can easily be wound by hand in about 10 minutes as it is only about 200 turns (rather than 1000's for a pickup with hair thin, hard to get wire). The example above is this fellows first go and experience of doing anything like this...and it looks the business.
The ultimate thing would be to have a dedicated sustainer guitar with only one bridge pickup and one neck driver. The switching, installation and everything would be much, much easier and potentially the space left by the removal of a neck Humbucker could easily accomodate both the driver (which is about 4mm thick) and all the circuitry, only requiring room to be found for the battery somewhere accessable.
I'd love someone to help devise a better circuit than the fetzer/ruby and potentially some clever fellow could devise some simple electronic switching to help with the bypass and wiring complexities too. Unfortunately a little out of my expertise. Thanks for the input...much appreciated...psw
OK I'm going to make one, but I have to finish some of my other audio projects first. I'm populating a ten band mixer tonight, an Orange Squeezer on Monday and some work to get it all in one box. Pic of my large stompbox at the end.
I have an old 1952 Kalamazoo that I love but have already made too many mods to it to call it original anymore.
So what the heck, it is a two coil set up. Only problem is that it is a solid Rosewood body and very thin compared to the Fenders. No room inside the body at all, except just a little around the neck pickup. I'll finish reading everything I can find on the "Sustainer" and give it a whirl. My plan is to keep the driver on, but just barley on, and I will call that "off mode". Note that anytime you turn a magnetic coil off, there is a backlash effect. Also there is a 4PDT out there that is a latching 5V relay and very small. I got about ten of them.
Thanks guys...
KMS...you'll get all the support you need over at the PG thread. Quite a lot of ideas have been floated for a surface mounted device to aid installation. Some very professional looking concepts. I made one with a remote stomp style box. The design ideas were that the circuit and battery could reside in a tailpiece with controls sticking out, just behind the bridge. You may have to dig deep in the thread (mid 30 pages as I recall) but there were some great graphic realizations put forward.
Jaicen_solo...well, one of the more intriguing things about the sustainer project is that it isn't as intuitive as it seems. If it were, there wouldn't have been such a "big ass thread!" lol. The saturated square wave seems to make the phase things worse. Certainly a polyphonic signal will turn to mush as with a heavy fuzz. You can connect a speaker to the circuit to hear whats putting out, but the real effect of the driver on the signal can not. In the very early days of the thread I tested individual string drivers with pure tones of various shapes generated by a computer program...the results for any being more favourable were inconclusive and only really tested monophonically.
You are intuitively right that a squarewave would seem to be the desirable form. What happens, I suspect is that the driver significantly rounds them off, and/or is too slow to respond at high frequencies due to the pase problems. Potentially the thing could end up inhibiting string vibration if it were to fall out of phase enough.
The LM386..."leave pins 1 & 8 unconnected to allow full gain to be applied"...no it's the other way around, hard wire together for 200x amplification. I use a 10uf cap as suggested to contol oscillation. Although there is a trim pot I've always run the thing flat out to get the gain required so that trim is not really necessary I suspect and usually have omitted it completely.
"Cross talk from the driver to a neck pickup can be avoided by simply grounding the hot end of the coil.' Well, no...but you think it would. I found it necessary to lift both ends of my single coils because of EMI related noise. Humbuckers may not have such a problem, I'm not sure. Hence the elaborate switching. The noise (an unaceptable squeel) can be controlled in one mode...but when you switch over the coils polarity for harmonic mode it returns if pickups are at all connected. I suspect it is a pulsating transformer like effect between the coil of the driver and nearby pickups connected by their magnetic fields and the mag energy pulsing through the strings.
From KMS..."Note that anytime you turn a magnetic coil off, there is a backlash effect." "There is simply no way around this." I think you both may be right. The indication is that the pop only occurs when turning off. I wondered whether having the preamp always on and turning off the LM386 stage would help. My concern is with battery consumption. I wonder though about how much it could consume if the driver coil were to be turned on and off...if it's not connected, how much power would the circuit use? I'd certainly try it and may save on switching.
"A high impedance buffer will probably still be required to avoid loading the pickups' It absolutely does...I'd like someone to devise a simple opamp design or something to remove the need for the transistor biasing trim pot in the fetzer circuit. I used a two transistor, filtered preamp and though small, I'm sure could be simplified and shrunk with an opamp. You probably want a bit of gain though...not just a buffer, at least with a LM386 circuit.
Valuable contributions thanks. I think you are both really on to something with the always on solution...any ideas on the effect of battery consumption if the thing was idling...and whether other pickups could be engaged unless the drive coil was disconnected with this senario?
If I was to build one of these, which I hopefully will when I get the time, I'd use a Mosfet buffer, and make my guitar active. A single mosfet booster can be biased to provide two buffered outputs which are out of phase. It's then a case of reversing the driver coil, or using an inverted circuit for the LM386. A bootstrapped NPN bipolar transistor could also be used.
To be honest, I don't understand why you're getting crosstalk when you have both ends of the coil grounded, there should be no induction whatsoever unless it's coming from your leads. Another idea for a sustainer 'bypass' is to simply ground the input and outputs of the 386, that way you'd get no signal coming in or out, though you may still have self noise from the amp in the coil.
It shouldn't be a problem letting the LM386 idle when not in use, they draw 4mA idling. I guess you could include a power switch as well.
You are of course right about pins 1&8 :icon_redface:
I should have mentioned in my first post that I actually have investigated the Fernandes patent to see how their design works. The important part of what I can remember is that the driver circuit is class B, which allows more dynamic range. They also drive the strings with a square wave which has been filtered to reduce the upper harmonics. You don't really need those anyway, since the string will generate them itself simply through vibrating. The driver coil itself is also magnetically shielded.
One thing that nobody ever mentions with these threads is the use of a Pulse Width modulator to drive the coil.
Using one of these, it is possible to output a pulse from rail to rail. Now, instead of the amplifier pushing and pulling the string by equal amounts, it can be set to pull and release the strings. The Pulse width can also be tuned to compensate for low frequencies.
8) Looks like you might get the sustainer bug if you don't watch out Jaicen_solo...lol ;D
I haven't looked at the patents for a while...there are a lot. Sustainiac uses class D to save on power. The ebow the old LM386. I'm sure there are better circuits that could be fairly easily devised. Fernandes also uses a preamp to allow the driver to work as a pickup (possibly with an auxillary coil). Although many have proposed magnetic shielding...it looks as if Fernandes has abandoned that on current models. Fernandes also used to place the driver coil/s on their side! Sustainiac also used to use dual, phase cancelling coils but now appear not, Sustainiac still do. The floyd Rose patent is more specific about how they have implimented phase compensation circuitry. It is a fact that much of what is patented has never seen production. If anything, the devices are getting simpler!
I too thought that the guitar should may as well be active, or at least the power be continuously connected while plugged in. With the idling idea you could well find that a single 3 way switch could activate the two modes (driver phase reverse) and off (driver disconnect) which would be a neat installation. In future I would not incorporate the sensitivity knob at all (replace with a trimmer) and i note that Fernandes now do the same. Many people don't want an active guitar and the power issue did seem to be of more importance. A device like this will use up batteries, it's not just a signal processor...but it's onboard status makes it impractical to power with anything else. Fernandes alway used to use two 9 volts and was difficult to build in. Presently they claim 72 hour operation BTW.
I experimented a lot with magnetic shielding with limited success. It certainly is an option though making it could be tricky. I incorporated driver coils in U shaped channels, encapsulated them in ferris epoxy...all kinds of things. Reorienting the coil and magnetic fields is another idea. Many of the hex drivers actually had cylindrical coils and balanced magnetic fields. These coils pulled the string from side to side. A dual coil system is very attractive too as it would put out equal amounts of phase reversed EMI.
QuoteNow, instead of the amplifier pushing and pulling the string by equal amounts, it can be set to pull and release the strings.
I also did some work and there has been a fair amount of discussion over the pulse width modulation. One idea was to simply cut negative waves from the signal. It worked but...no better. Theoretically, the coil being always driven into one magnetic polarity will have difficulty letting go that state between waves and will shortly magnetise in that direction. The negative waves, along with the permanent magnet, help to pull the driver's state through neutral between pulses. In short, without the opposing wave the device has trouble pulling and letting go! This is vital with higher frequencies as the driver can only respond so fast. I tried to address this with different core materials and found that a core material like ferite was excellent (used in hex drivers a lot) in terms of speed as it transmits but doesn't hold a magnetic state (as steel does for instance...hence it's use in inductors).
I'd love to see some ideas on mosfet buffers and other circuit concepts. There are a lot more modern and efficient chips than the old LM386. The driver's are still evolving. By people making there own variations the thing will evolve faster than one guy (like me) working on their own. My proposal of the "thin coil driver" has shown to be novel and a very effective, and practical solution. It's small and compacts it's energy right up close to the strings...it's size and shape also effects it's response time. As far as EMI issues it really has not been installed enough for the variations and switching problems to be fully explored.
With my working guitar it is perhaps a little more of a special case. Highly suseptable true single coils. My driver is actually built on top of the neck pickup and shares it's magnet...so it's configuration is very much like a transformer. It also has a mid pickup. All the same, other experiments do suggest that non-used close by pickups do need to be completely lifted (much to my surprise and annoiance I can assure you).
In some recent stuff on fernandes (posted on the thread recently) I see they run everything to the circuit and back out. It could be that they use electronic switching (what I would like to have done) to run everything. I think I counted at least 24 connections running in and out of their circuit to various components inside the guitar.
As other pickups are off when the device is operating anyway, I'd prefer to see a single pickup guitar, with neck driver...and if you are going to leave the thing on anyway, make it active and incorporate some nifty active filters to compensate for the loss of other pickups (if you must).
Great contributions and I hope to see you sustaining away in the near future and contributing even more to the evolution of this kind of device. For sure, the involvement in making something like this will puzzle and delight you, besides getting you a new kind of expression from the guitar...welcome aboard, all those who are coming aboard...psw
Randy...the maker of the above driver has made a great circuit as we have been describing...here's a pic...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/amp1.jpg)
And here's a pic of the circuit and driver on his project guitar...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/amp2.jpg)
He has reported mixed results and I suspect a couple of problems but it may be the wide core is in part explains it...
Therre are a couple of new posts if people are interested...that little circuit is sure impresive...basically it is a fetzer ruby with all pots as trimmers....very neat....psw
me again...
For comleteness sake, here is the reverse of PG member, Randy (RV2)'s Fetzer/Ruby sustainer circuit pictured in the last post. Some inspiration for anyone making a circuit up and wanting to keep it small...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/amp_bottom.jpg)
From what we have been discussing it could be made smaller still by removing two of the trim pots leaving only the one for biasing the preamp transistor!
As for driver's, I mentioned some others...this one is my favorite and works well apparently...made by PG member Tim (onelastgoodbye). The core is a magnet and the whole thing is set in epoxy. The magnet held steel plates for winding on which were removed once the epoxy set...result, a bobbinless coil with an internal magnet...solid as a rock!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/PICT0288.jpg)
As you can see I'm obsessed with this project and take every oportunity to promote it and to encourage others to do the work of taking it further.... ;D. Also, Seasons Greetings to all and take care...psw
Ok that's it, i'm going to have to build one now!
I stole a pair of JRC386's from uni about three years ago to build a sustainer and i've still not got round to it!
In one of my guitars at the minute, I have a handmade PAF copy with alnico II magnets in the bridge. This sounds great, unfortunately the neck pickup is stock and sounds, not so great ;)
That's now going to get ripped out and replaced with my custom sustainer & SC pickup.
Since I have some Humbucker bobbins lying around, what I'm going to do is cut the top and bottoms off, and add some small steel spacers and the screw polepieces so that it looks stock from above. This will allow me to wind directly onto the polepieces for maximum flux density. I figure one of the high T ceramic magnets I have lying around should be more than enough to drive this.
I'm going to wind a 7k single coil onto the second bobbin, perhaps using the same method for a more fender like tone. That would be just about the perfect guitar for me then!!!
That's Great J.S.
Somewhere on that bigg ass sustainer thread ;) i discussed doing something just like this. What I proposed/suggested was to block off the lower half of the driver coil rather than cut it up...
Basically take the pickup apart. Now strip the wire from the one that will be closest to the neck. Take this bobbin and pack up all but the top 3mm (cardboard would do). Then wind the driver coil onto this 3mm top section of the bobbin. Put it all back together and it's done.
Now you could get even clever-er ;). It is vital that the coil is potted as you wind. I used PVA wood glue as it is safe and works well. But ideally you could use epoxy as Tim has done. He described how it was done using kitchen plastic wrap and I brought that forward to the current page of the PG thread. Now if you were to do the same...you could take out the blocking and wind another partial coil below the driver coil on the same bobbin. It might not be completely humbucking but it would be a lot quieter than a single coil...just a thought.
Also...you could consider running the neck pickup (or the whole guitar) as an active pickup. Then you'd get all the power you need. This is what fernandes and sustainiac seem to be doing. Even the driver can "pickup" signals if sufficiently preamped...just like a low impedance pickup...just another thought. If you are really clever you could use the sustainer circuits existing preamp to achieve this effect.
Be aware that I did need to do some complicated switching to get my strat's two extra pickups (neck and mid) to be bypassed and the bridge selected. Your's would be simpler but could well need to have both ends of the neck pickup coil removed from the guitar's circuit when the sustainer is on. I did prove that it can be done so don't let that put you off!!!
So...I'm glad to see I've infected another with the sustainer bug. It really is a nifty little device and a lot of fun to play too! I hope to see your adventures posted both here and over at PG in the new year. BTW there is a new post tonight on magnets that might be of interest and I hear of a few more getting into making the thing. Each time they seem to get a little better and I'm sure that they are evolving...psw
Hi all....
Happy New Year. Here's a soundclip of the sustainer in action with some interesting use of effects to create a fake organ sound at one point....
http://users.pandora.be/onelastgoodbye/sounds/sirensea.mp3 (http://users.pandora.be/onelastgoodbye/sounds/sirensea.mp3)
Also...to show there is nothing new under the sun...here's a sustainer patent from 1892!!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/1892Sustainer.jpg)
It's been a while since I've followed this sustainer thread, but WOW!, these ones made recently look very professional. That's a pretty cool thing to see all these people building one now.
On a different note, that must be a record for the longest, largest, most visited forum topic ever. :icon_eek:
Hi there...another random update on things DIY sustainer...
check out this 3D circuit realization by a PG member of the fetzer/rupy sustainer circuit...top and bottom
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/FRS10-top.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/FRS10-bottom.jpg)
The area in the middle is reserved for two switches and he's even got an LED on the board...pretty neat!!
He said he made it with Eagle and POVray...anyone know about these tools? Anyway...sure "looks" good but I wonder how much a double sided board like this would set you back. The circuit previously posted was way small and yet was done on perf board. Anyway, the sustainer thread is still going strong and more people tell me they will be making them this year...pete
Quote from: psw on January 21, 2006, 06:35:25 PM
He said he made it with Eagle and POVray...anyone know about these tools?
Eagle is a software package for designing PCB's. POV-Ray is a 3D package. Both are available for free.
I sure like the layout for the switches. My attempts to make a 3PDT in Eagle don't look
nearly that good.
Quote from: Paul Marossy on January 01, 2006, 10:08:41 AM
It's been a while since I've followed this sustainer thread, but WOW!, these ones made recently look very professional. That's a pretty cool thing to see all these people building one now.
On a different note, that must be a record for the longest, largest, most visited forum topic ever. :icon_eek:
Yes...and it is still growing, now 192 pages and 101K+ visits...http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&st=2895#entry332896 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512&st=2895#entry332896)
I thought I'd update you all a bit...
The sustainer project is going into a new phase with a new generation of sustainer drivers being developed. One of the coolest things about the sustainer thread is that people are building these things, sharing their experiences and techniques...and mistakes...to help the next one to have a go.
After a long time not making anything much, I am currently building a "next generation" sustainer driver which is looking really good. Have developed some new construction techniques and found materials that brings the DIY cost of the driver down to about $5!!!
The newer drivers take the next logical step, and use dual coils. The thin coil philosophy still holds sway with this design with some coils down to 2mm thick. Basically we are looking at a driver similar to a SC rail pickup in construction (though a very successful HB sized driver was recently completed) but with thin coils of about 16 ohms in parallel of 0.2-0.16mm wire...
The added efficiency and low EMI plus strategies to reduce it are in a bid not only to improve the device but to be able to mount the thing in the mid pickup position of the guitar (strat types the obvious candidate). This would greatly simplify installation (no pickup bypassing...just turn on the power to the circuit) as well as allowing the use of both the bridge and neck pickup on the guitar and to source the signal for the device.
We are pretty confident...and we have had some working in this mode in testing already...
Additionally...there have been some circuit developments with two new preamp designs with forward feed compression for more consistant response, lower power consumption and up to 4 modes of sustain (fundumental, harmonic and two mixed modes)...
So...here's some eye candy...
A YouTube vid of a typical single coil driver in test mode...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uJMlseGgMM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uJMlseGgMM)
A very neat and successful HB driver (the rail HB in the neck position) with 2mm deep coils in parallel..
(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/4594/installedsustainerclosefc6.th.jpg)
My "Rail Driver" that I am presently constructing in a fairly raw state...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/pswdualdriver5.jpg)
It is looking a lot better now...this is constructed with craft store ceramic magnets and cut down hacksaw blades and a lot of glue...it's looking a lot better now...
Will keep you guys posted...if you want a more condensed version of some of these developments than the main thread, you may wish to visit Guitar Nuts forum...http://guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1136497404&page=4 (http://guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1136497404&page=4)
Enjoy...
pete
Ok...been doing a little work on my new driver...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/pswdualdriver13.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/pswdualdriver10.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/pswdualdriver12.jpg)
This one uses two 16 ohm coils in parallel of 0.2mm wire. I used hacksaw blades shaped with an angle grinder and a special jig system to construct it without bobbins. It is potted while winding in PVA wood glue, then encapsulated in epoxy while squeezing it in a vice. It also features additional blades to the sides of they coil. Still, it is the size of a SC pickup...
I tested it with the sustainer strat and it's circuitry and it appears to work well...less fizz/EMI distortion and a more powerful drive it would seem. It also seems to have completely cured the "pop" on switchoff that the SC driver/pickup suffered from.
Whether or not it will work in the mid postion of the guitar with both neck and bridge pickups, as intended, is still unknown at this point...also unknown is if this is the best formula for this design...I suspect a thinner guage wire could be of benefit and make it a little easier to build...but it is a start...
Other similar designs are being tested by a few people, and if nothing else, some innovatice construction techniques have been developed that will make it easy to build. At a total cost in materials of less than A$5, it is well worth the making...
Next will be the rewiring and preparation of the guitar and perhaps some circuitry development...believe it or not, I'd like to incorporate the poweramp stage into the driver design as well...and on a future model, a miniture momentary tactile switch so that sustain/feedback/harmonics can be added "on the fly" by touching perhaps the side of the driver...neato! Hopefully, such future developments will take the sustainer out of a gimmick effect to an effective and expressive performance tool...
Anyway...just adding developments as they come to hand...
pete
BTW...the indicator light on the side of the driver is invisible when off, but "glows" through the white electrical tape that protects the outer edge of the driver. It is made from SMD LED's of the type found in mobile phone keypads, very, very small and nestles in between the ends of the dual coils...
I've just got to say that you have done some awesome work. I'm getting some parts today to begin working on an ebow style device and quite possibly a sustainer pickup as well. Thanks for all your sharing of knowledge both in this forum and over at Project Guitar. You've done some outstanding work and your newest driver appears to be simply fantastic thus far. Let's hope it does in fact work in the middle position! Good luck and thanks!
Wow, Pete is like the Energizer Bunny with a vengeance! :icon_lol:
That new pickup is looking pretty good. :o
I applaud your dedication for sure!
I remember the start of this DIY sustainer thing, years ago. I actually still have some 0.2mm wire, and some much larger wire I used in my wholly unsuccessful experiments! This has inspired me to try again though! I've got some 3mm Alnico rod i'm going to try using as the core material, we'll see how well that works (though I suspect it will become demagnetised with use, assuming it works ::)).
QuoteI applaud your dedication for sure!
Tenacity more like...we all have our follies
QuoteI remember the start of this DIY sustainer thing, years ago.
I remember you also...this is a project that people seem to return to...even when successful...more power to those who can leave it alone!
QuoteI've got some 3mm Alnico rod i'm going to try using as the core material, we'll see how well that works (though I suspect it will become demagnetised with use, assuming it works ::)).
I am not sure if it will demagnetise...no one has yet...but it would be easy enough to remagnetise I guess. One real problem though with using single coil poles is that they may be a little too strong to allow the driver to be adjusted really close to the strings.
The dual coil blade driver like the one I am using in the mid-driver project has the opposite problems...perhaps not enough throw...
Meanwhile...I am doing a little side project in a DIY ebow...stand by...
pete