Boy, have I been having some fun playing with a TB3 clone. This fuzz box does everything from heavy rock to wasp-in-a-jar, an incredible range of sounds.
This build followed my summer search for a 'traditional', 'ripped-speaker' tone. A friend of mine was fed up with poor digital emulations from the like of Digitech and Zoom, and was conned into buying the excrable Ibanez 'Tonelok' FS-7, thinking it to be analogue. Real limited sounds, truly digital fuzz, awful. He quite liked my silicon Fuzz Face (more than my germanium FF), but it was not quite what he was after, so I have been trying to find an alternative. Not Bazz Fuss, not Big Muff. Eventually, it occurred to me to try the Tonebender, but which one?
Well, the Mk I is still a bit of a mystery, but too much related to the FF. The Mk II looks like a FF with a booster/buffer in front of it, and I know what this combination sounds like - a FF with no control over the sound. The Jumbo TB is somewhere between a Fuss and a Muff, and much as I like 'em - no. The Mk III, however, is different...
Anyway, I built the Mk III using two MPSA56 low-gain PNP silicons in the Darlington stage, and a 2N2048 PNP germanium in the fuzz stage. Sounds great. It's not cased yet - just in the 'breadbox' with the build on stripboard. Now, I want to try all kinds of mods, including an all-silicon version... but I'm still playing with this one. However, the band rehearses next Friday, and I suspect that I might not get it back for a while!
For me, the 3-knob Tonemender always trumped its 2-knob predecessor. Its versatility and decreased dependency on "magic number" transistors made it a very satisfying build.
Here are my mod notes, as well as a link to sound clips: http://home-wrecker.com/fuzz.html
the 3 knobber sounds great recorded on tape also!
I'm guessing you mean 3 knob, and not Mark III? I don't believe there is a Mark III, but I'll gladly be wrong! I want to build this one too with some wooly germs, and see what happens.
Hmm I built the two-knob tonebender, I don't know if it sounds the way it is supposed to but I am going to mod it, adding a tone pot - until I found your tonebender has three transistors, mine only has two........ ???... There seem to be almost as many versions of this as there are of the fuzz face, I don't even know which one I've built... and I can't load the schematic. Something is wrong with my connection damndamnit.
Quote from: Herr Masel on October 08, 2005, 06:45:37 AM
Hmm I built the two-knob tonebender, I don't know if it sounds the way it is supposed to but I am going to mod it, adding a tone pot - until I found your tonebender has three transistors, mine only has two........ ???... There seem to be almost as many versions of this as there are of the fuzz face, I don't even know which one I've built... and I can't load the schematic. Something is wrong with my connection damndamnit.
Your is a FF. These TB's are just a modified FF.
A small low pass filter [cap 'n pot at output] is as good a FF tone knob as Iv'e gotten, with tuned switched caps in circuit the Q is lovely, however, adding resistances to the signal path kind of ruins the FF-ey ness of the circuit, quirky lack of drive being 'required' for it to sound Fuzz Face.
The three transistor ones have the boosted front end, added 1 transistor.
The Colorsound Overdriver...OT here, is also quite a nice sound to have.
If you're wanting a ripped speaker cone sort of tone, that really isn't the Tone Bender. It gives you (at least my SI does) the "Satisfaction" type tone, and the types of tones used by The Yardbirds, Paul Revere and the Raiders, etc. If you go to the "layouts " gallery, go to Dragonfly's stuff and build his "Dirty Sanchez". It's a nasty, gatey sounding, trasher fuzz, and should be more what you're looking for.
Actually I do want the more "tame" sixties tone, hearing the clips for the 3 knob tonebender I was going thinking that's exactly what I want. Could I convert my circuit or would it be too much of a hassle? I guess I'll just build a new one.
i've built em, don't care for em. HOWEVER; Mr.Craig of www.Awendamusic.com makes a dern good (THE BEST IMO) 3 knobber.
As allways- i just had to replace the volume control from 100K to 1Meg, man.
But i constantly use the awenda music's SSF (3 knob tonebender) for everything, man. Just wish i could use a negative ground 9V wall-wart....
Youse guys should try his stuff out, VERY good stuff. And the 3-knob TB only costed me $55.00!!!! american currency, that is....
just getting confused?
vox tonebender = brighter fuzz face type circuit, possibly built before arbiter?
mkII tonebender = colorsound version.. Page, Beck, etc.
Sola Sound 3 knob tonebender = germanium original simliar to the "park fuzz"..
Vox tonebender mkIII = the one Ge_Whiz is described in the 1st post of this thread.. almost the same as Sola sound 3 knob tonebender.. right?
am i on the same page as everyone else here?
curious,
Hello Hello--
Quite a few people confuse the Colorsound 3-knob Tonebender [with the diode in the circuit] with a MK III. There actually are MK III Tonebenders, but they came later and were released under the Vox or Jen brand. [There may be a Colorsound MK III ..... I'll have to check....]
The Solasound Tonebender [MK I] came way before the Fuzz Face and is a two-transistor circuit that Beck used on the Yardbirds stuff.
The Solasound MK II is the three-tranny circuit with two knobs that Page used on the last Yardbirds album [more FUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ]
When Solasound changed to Colorsound they came out with the 3-knob, 3-tranny, 1 diode model [same as the Park Fuzz, also made by Colorsound.]
I'm too tired to think of more stuff but Vox and Jen [both made in the same Italian factory] had all kinds of Tonebenders.
Brian.
Yes, guilty as charged, I meant the three-knob Colorsound circuit. Boxed it up yesterday and it is sooooooo much fun.
Thanks for the tip-off on the 'Dirty Sanchez'. I asked the question about the 'ripped-speaker' sound back in the summer, and nobody answered...
Has anybody else had this problem? I tweaked the knobs on the TB this afternoon, plucked a note and immediately recognized the tone. This led me to play a well-known short solo from an old popular song, straight off, just inspired by the sound. However, trying to remember the song title is driving me nuts...
:icon_redface: Ooops, I lie. You did n fact mention the 'Sanchez' back after my original post. Sorry. :icon_redface:
Hello Hello--
O.k., I looked through my pictures and I DID find a Solasound Tonebender MK III. [NOT a Colorsound.....] This thing was made BEFORE they changed the name to Colorsound, so it's earlier then I thought. I bet it's the "3-Knob" circuit we've been talking about .
How can I take a picture from my files and post it on the forum??? I'd really like to have everybody see this pedal!
Brian.
I believe aron had a post on this new forum on how to post. I haven't done it yet, so I haven't read it. Ok, so what came first with the Tone Benders. Were Vox and Jen manufaturing at about the same time, and then got bought out by Solo Sound, then Color Sound? Then Vow sold the Crybaby Name to Dunlop? It seems like I read a little bit about it somewhere, but it was a litte sketchy on what came first, the chicken or the egg. Are 3 knobbers alway Solo Sound, and not Vox? All I know, is I love my 2 knob Mark II Si, and I'm going to have to build a germ version 3 knobber sometime to see if it's better.
Hello Hello--
Let's see.......
1] Gary Hurst made the first TB in '59 - '60
2] Solasound marketed Hurst's TB somewhere around '64 [some people say earlier...] as the Solasound Tonebender.
3] In '66 Solasound also made the Vox Tonebender [ same 2 transistor circuit].
4] Arbiter ripped the design for the Fuzz Face.
5] 1966 [or '67] Solasound came out with the Tonebender MKII Pro [3 tranny circuit] They also made the Marshall Supa Fuzz.
6] I forgot which year that Solasound changed to Colorsound ['69 maybe??] but they also started making everything in Italy.
7] Everything gets real wacky 'cuz Vox, Colorsound, and Jen all had similar pedals and were made at the Jen factory in Italy.
Brian.
Thanks Brian. That's the thing right there, the "everything gets wacky" statement. There must have not been to good of record keeping at the time, because there are always conflicting stories depending on which one you read. It seems like even when you get some information from the horses mouth, you still have conflict. I guess thes vintage pedals have taken on a life all there own, like the stories that come out of Roswell. :icon_rolleyes:
Quote from: brian wenz on October 09, 2005, 10:19:39 PM
How can I take a picture from my files and post it on the forum??? I'd really like to have everybody see this pedal!
Brian.
Brian,
You can take a "screen shot" while holding down: function + Print Screen
Then if you hold down: control + V it will paste the screen shot that you just took.. then you have to upload the picture on a sever and link to it. [at least thats what you had to do on the old forum]
hope this helps,
AFAIK, it goes like this:
Hurst/Sola Sound Tonebender MkI - 1965-66 (folded steel housing, gold/dark grey, three transistors)
Sola Sound Tone Bender - 1966 (cast housing, silver, two OC75 transistors)
Sola Sound MkII Pro 1966-68 (cast housing, silver, three OC75 or OC81D transistors)
Vox MkII Pro 1967-68
Sola Sound MkIII 1968-69? (stamped housing, very rare)
Vox MkIII 1969-74 (Ge), 1975 (Si Jumbo TB circuit, reversed input & output)
Sola Sound MkIV 1970-71 (first to have the stamped Colorsound housing, in silver, orange or yellow)
Sola Sound Tone Bender 1971 (yellow, first to have the "Batman" graphics)
Sola Sound Tone Bender 1972-74 (silver, Ge), 1975 (Si, Jumbo TB circuit, reversed input & output)
There were also versions of the MkII made for Marshall (Supa Fuzz) and Rotosound (Fuzz), as well as some Vox MkIII/Rotosound/Marshall oddballs, with various silicon and germanium Veroboard circuits which didn't make it into volume production.
Up to '68/'69, these all have Veroboard circuits. The first 3-knob pedals,from '69/'70, had an "upside down" PCB, with the earliest examples having four transistors - one used as the diode.
All the above were made in England by Sola Sound. Sola Sound was registered as a company in November 1964 and Colorsound was not a separate company, it was a brand name used by Sola Sound and wasn't applied to Tone Benders until 1974 (Supa Tonebender).
The two transistor Vox Tone Bender sold in the USA was made in Italy by EME (who made the Vox wahs), and later Jen, but these were sourced independently by Thomas Organ and had nothing to do with Sola Sound, other than lifting the name and case design. The only Vox Tone Benders sold in England at this time were the MkII Pros made by Sola Sound.
Here's a line up of three knobbers, from left: '70 Vox MkIII, '70 Park, '70 MkIV, '71 yellow TB, '74 silver TB. All these were dated from the pots.
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/s.castledine/pics/solas_2.jpg)
Thanks Stuart for the in depth run down! Where does the "Park" name come from? I thought it was it's own name too, but I also thought ColorSound was a separate name until now. :icon_confused: So, you have a Sola Sound, Color Sound, Supa Tone Bender, Like you would have a Chevrolet, Buick, Regal? Is that the idea? that's a nic bunch of pedals! Are those yours?
Hello Hello---
Good, now I don't have to post my Solasound pic!
Hey Stu--- where did Sola put the MK IV designation on that pedal?? Is it on the inside or written somewhere on the case???
Brian.
Awesome Pic Stuart !!!
Cool knobs !!
Large boxes.
Hello Hello--
Hhhmmmmm..... looks like old "hit-and-run" Stu has left us again! Baits us with the great pic and then buggers off!
Brian.
LOL! The MkIV designation is above the foot switch. That one's on loan, but the rest are mine :icon_cool:
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/s.castledine/pics/markiv.jpg)
Hello Hello--
Thanks Stu!
If you're still there....... what circuit is in that MKIV?
same as the 3-knobber???
Brian.
Note in Stuart's picture the arrangement of the 'Instrument' and 'Amplifier' sockets. That's how I remember my old (stolen) Fuzz Face, so when I built my germanium FF some years ago, that's how I arranged the input and output. Drove my chum nuts when I lent it to him - "I spent 30 minutes trying to get it to work!" he cried. "I had the jacks the wrong way round!". I did point out that I had labelled them clearly, but he didn't want to acknowledge that. Ever since, I've arranged then as IN - right, OUT - left, which does keep leads out of the way of a clumsy right-handed guitarist like me.
Hello Hello--
GE-- Yep, that's also a quick way to tell a Colorsound reissue pedal from an original......the input is always on the right [looking down on the pedal with the knobs at the front].
Brian.
Quote from: brian wenz on October 11, 2005, 03:32:24 AM
Hello Hello--
Thanks Stu!
If you're still there....... what circuit is in that MKIV?
same as the 3-knobber???
Brian.
A few tweaks, but yes, basically the same. The first MkIVs had the "upside down" board like the MKIII, then they went to the normal style board during 1970, as far as I can tell. Early 3-knobs, at least up to mid-late '71, have 680K/100K bias string resistors instead of the later 220K/47K. The bypass cap on the 3K3 resistor was 10µF or 6.4µF.
This one's next up, I have perf, will build it...
I'll socket and see if I can 'sneak' an SI transistor in Q2...and still have it sound as good as a '3 Ge TB'.
Interesting is the Botique 3 Knob Bender, the 500k pot [and 10k stop R] coming off the collector and to the emitter...that's the 'major change' I noted between a TB and a B.TB, not sure what it does, can be added/subtracted easily enough...
I love my 2 knob TB, but it's best set 'rough' and I haven't been able to use it with other 'cleaner' effects...best left on [IMO for the most part] by itself because the transition from on to off / off to on, is 'abrupt', of course the guitar rolloff makes fairly good 'mild cleanup' of the distortion.
Hello Hello--
I really like the 3-Knob circuit...plenty of fuzz and more tone options then the MKII.
Brian.
Any recommendations for gain?
Q1 and Q2 being Darlington configured, I would imagine high gainers work well there, I can't look right now, but imagine gain for these are set by the resistors.
Q3...?
Low leakage is always better.
Board is small and looks real good, hopefully I'll get to trying it out with transistors tomorrow. :icon_smile:
Q3 only works with leakage.
I still didn't get a reply on the "Park" designation! I finally got my Russian germanium PNPs in, so I should be getting my 3 knobber together before long.
Quote from: Steben on October 12, 2005, 03:33:02 AM
Q3 only works with leakage.
Seriously?
I have had an all germ. NPN one for a couple years now.. i dropped some low gain si [2N2369] into the Q1/Q2 darlington positions, and the fuzz is really bad and gatey sounding now? I must need to rebias Q3 now? I will post back after I get it sounding OK with the Si tranny's.
You should rebias Q1 and Q2 I guess Check the collector voltages.
With Sillies at Q3, the base would be really at 0 Volts, like it should be in theory, giving only a part of the positive waveform. But with Germs, the base gets juiced a bit through leakage, giving some needed bias, still very assymetric though.
Quote from: Steben on October 12, 2005, 11:42:55 AM
You should rebias Q1 and Q2 I guess Check the collector voltages.
Will do,
Since I have the fixed resistors soldered in, I might do the opposite and plug in different Trannys to get the right voltages?
I wish I would have measured the the Hfe of the germ Trannys I had in Q1/Q2 before I lost track of them? This thing used to sound real nice!
I will post my results!
Thanks!
I was not aware of leakage adding to the mystique of this circuit?
Hello Hello--
  JMusser--
     Park was the name Marshall used for it's "budget" line of gear [amps, etc.] Sola made the Marshall Supa Fuzz [variation of the TB MKII] and also the Park unit [variation of the 3-knob]. Some of the Park fuzzes had no fuzz control......the fuzz was full-up all the time!
Hey Ryan!!-- How are you doing?? Haven't talked to you in a while...
Brian.
Thanks Brian. I have seen the "Park" fuzz schematic somewhere, and wondered where it came from. Is the Lawn Box another knock off of the Tone Bender too? It seems like someome made a reference to the Tone Bender circuit and the Lawn Box once upon a time.
Quote from: brian wenz on October 12, 2005, 12:13:23 PM
Hey Ryan!!-- How are you doing?? Haven't talked to you in a while...
Brian.
sent you a PM..
No real 'mystique' to leakage. With most silicon transistor stages, you'll see a bias resistor of quite high value running from base to collector. This was commonly omitted from germanium circuits, since there was often enough internal current leakage to do the same job. Of course, 'inadequate' leakage could cause 'undesirable' distortion in most applications, but 'desirable' in a fuzz box.
Maybe THat's what the 500k pot with 10k stop resistor is doing from Q3 Base to collector on the botique Tonebender at GGG.
I put some transistors in, sounded great, tried it out, boxed it, now it sounds like it's gating...lol.
I've ordered Ge's for this now too :icon_cool:.
Hello Hello--
Yeah the "Lawnbox" [or, Yardbox by Prescription Electronics] is supposed to be a clone of the 3-Knob but due to the transistors that they used it doesn't sound the same at all. I have an original Yardbox and it's not bad, but compared to my DIY 3-Knobber it's lacking character and gain.
Brian.
 Yes it is more subdued than the 2 knob TB.
 There is some 'pulling toward ground neaar the tail end, also the 220k btw the tone and vol controls must be dropping the signal amplitude down some, though the way it is sitting is above unity, I'm wondering how loud the circuit will sound with different transistors, I'm thinking some 'loosening near the output might be needed, though that is part of the tone...maybe part of the idea is that the amp isn't pushed real hard.
 How loud are the original units or your clone...how much boost is it 'supposed to make?.
Hello Hello Pete--
I've been told by a few people that the 220k isn't supposed to be in the circuit at all! It does make a difference when you remove it.
They should have plenty of gain and fuzz but not as much as the MKII.....a little tamer.
Brian.
QuoteMaybe THat's what the 500k pot with 10k stop resistor is doing from Q3 Base to collector on the botique Tonebender at GGG.
I put some transistors in, sounded great, tried it out, boxed it, now it sounds like it's gating...lol.
I've ordered Ge's for this now too .
Yup That 500k opens the silicon's "gate"... oops...base (FET's all around hey? ;-) they are labelled much more understandable).
It doesn't sound the same though, no. You would need a low gain silicon tranny, a feedback cap to trim off harshness, etc...