Here's something I've been working on for a while, it's a PT2399 based delay called Echo Base. It started out with some ideas for mods for a Rebote, but after playing around for a while I thought I might as well start from scratch and design something new.
The main features are:-
1. It's got an LFO that modulates the delay time for chorus/vibe/tape flutter effects, a bit like a DMM.
2. Shock horror, it's not true bypass, that's because....
3. It can do delay tails, where you bypass it and the delays die away instead of being cut off instantly.
Here's the schematic (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/echobase.png)
The bypass is done using CD4066 switches and works like this. The signal goes through the input buffer which sends the dry signal straight to the output buffer, the signal also goes through the first 4066 switch (A) and into the PT2399. This section is mostly from the appnote on the datasheet with a few values tweaked, but with the output taken from pin 14 like on the Rebote 2.5, doing this taps off just the delayed/wet signal. The wet signal then passes through another 4066 switch (B) and gets mixed with the dry signal via the Level pot.
When the effect is on both of these switches are open. When it's bypassed one of the switches closes depending on the position of the Tails/Boss switch. In Tails mode the input switch (A) is closed, cutting off the signal to the PT2399, the wet sound then dies out naturally.
In Boss mode the output switch (B) closes so the wet sound is instantly cut off, the input to the PT2399 is still open. This is how Boss pedals work, hence the name.
The modulation is a simple triangle LFO hooked up to a PNP transistor in series with the delay time pot. It took quite a bit of experimenting to get this working nicely but I think it's a neater solution than using a LED/LDR combo.
Here's some sound clips, they're just guitar >> Echo Base >> Condor >> Soundcard.
Slapback (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebslapback.mp3) Bypassed then effect
Rhythmic repeats (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebspacey.mp3) Bypassed then effect
Chord stabs showing the longest delay time (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/eblong.mp3)
Chorus (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebchorus.mp3) Bypassed then effect
Heavy vibe (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebvibe.mp3) Bypassed then effect
Slow vibe (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebvibeslow.mp3) Bypassed then effect
Pitch bending (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebpitchbend.mp3)
Delayed vibes (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebvibedelay.mp3)
Example of delay tails (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebtails.mp3) This starts with some (bad) distorted lead then the distortion and the delay are turned off and you can hear the echoes dying away behind the clean playing. The switch pop is from the distortion pedal.
Here's a guts shot of the finished pedal, vero layout to follow shortly :)
(http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebguts.jpg)
Thanks go to R.G. and The Tone God for their electronic switching articles and Francisco Peña because if it wasn't for the Rebote I wouldn't have built this.
Enjoy :)
hey that's a great build! Makes me wanna to make one myself.
Nice work. 8)
Thank You!
That's one for the ever expanding "to do" list.
osa
That looks really nice. The modulation is cool and I really like the idea of it not chopping the tail off the repeats when you bypass.
Does it come with an Ion Cannon? :icon_wink:
Great work. I've got to do it. :icon_biggrin:
Delay Tails! I've had that idea before, but I didn't know how to do that. :icon_biggrin:
Now, a feedback loop (both internal and external) in that and it's done. :D
Cheers for the replies.
Quote from: soulsonic on August 27, 2007, 04:54:11 PM
Does it come with an Ion Cannon? :icon_wink:
No Ion Cannon, but I'm glad somebody got the reference :)
What can I say, I'm a child of the 80's.
Great work Ian, looks superb and a nice clean vero build too :D
Now i need a few chips .......
WoW!!
the vibe is even heavier than DMM!!
i did "echo tail" mod on my rebote2 by using a momentary switch
with a effect loop anyone can get the fabulous sound easily
Fan-freaking-tastic!
All great sounds and effects!
Vero layout would be great Slacker :)
Can't wait.
Great sounding clips and nice work on this one! I dig the modulation addition and the delay trails.
I've always though about incorporating a steep LPF and or HPF to the rebote ala dub style echoplex and space echo sounds.
I'll have to put that on the list of to dos
Thanks for sharing this.
John
Sweet slacker .....:o
Yup a wet only effects loop will do tricks ;D
cool :)
Wow! Ian, that is a great effort. I'll need to build this one.
:)
Very nice!
I'm glad I waited with my Rebote.. Got all the parts lying around allready!
Thnks!
Good work. I tried the LFO with a transistor. Mine didn't work so great, so I switched to and LED/LDR. It sounds like your is working very well. I like the idea of powering the LFO from the 5v supply.
I have been thinking about PT2399 delays a lot lately. A couple questions keep coming up.
First, the PT2399 chip runs off 5V so the signal fed into it should be kept in a range of 0 to 5V. The PT 80 delay uses a NE570 to compand the signal. But the Rebote and others usually use an op-amp with a gain of about 1 as the input buffer. My Rebote sounds pretty good. Is there a chance of clipping? Would it be better to use an input buffer with a gain of something like 1/2 and recover gain at the output buffer?
Second, most of the examples I see use inverting stages for the input and output buffer. An inverting stage at the input is more prone to noise. This is due to the need for large input and feedback resistors. Larger resistors create more noise but are required to keep the input impedance high. Then again my Rebote sounds good. Maybe the metal film resistors produce less noise, or any noise they create adds "mojo" to the sound.
Nice Job Ian, this is very impressive indeed! 8)
Thank you!!
sounds really great. the vibrato is impressive to say the least... :)
yeah, ian, i'm with everyone else here- this sounds great! awesome job
Great looking project, Slacker, can't wait for the schematic. BTW, I had to do a bit of a double take, but you have the terms "open" and "closed" with regards to switching switched around. "Closed" is generally understood to mean that the circuit is closed, i.e. completed. "Open" means the circuit is broken. Maybe counter-intuitive, and the opposite of my mother saying to "open the light", but there it is. :) So your CMOS switches are both closed when the effect is on and open when the effect is off, Boss-style.
BTW, the old-fashioed way to do delay tails is with a volume pedal in front of the delay. Of course, if you want to play over the tail, the VP has to be a panning type, with the second output going to the amp or a mixer. Your solution is obviously superior.
I bet with the settings right on this it does a really good imitation of a Magnatone Tremelo.
I have a couple spare PT2399 chips laying around here, I might build one of these.
Sounds great!
Cheers,
- JJ
Looks like a great project, I think i'll be getting into once I clear my current backlog!
Just a though, but have you considered adding the plug detector as a voltage input for the delay time??
I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it's basically a voltage output that increases with speed of picking. I'm thinking that would be a neat effect for the delay to track, though i've no idea how you'd calibrate something like that!
Thanks for all the feedback, some good ideas for mods. A wet feedback loop should just be as simple as breaking the connection between lug 2 of the feedback pot and the 20k resistor and splicing your sent/return jacks in there. So long as whatever pedal you put in the loop has a high input impedance I don't think you'll need a buffer.
Quote from: Ben N on August 28, 2007, 01:44:48 PM
BTW, I had to do a bit of a double take, but you have the terms "open" and "closed" with regards to switching switched around. "Closed" is generally understood to mean that the circuit is closed, i.e. completed. "Open" means the circuit is broken.
Slaps head! yeah you're right I got it the wrong way round, unfortunately I can't edit the post, hope it doesn't confuse too many folks.
Quote from: soggybag on August 28, 2007, 11:18:06 AM
I have been thinking about PT2399 delays a lot lately. A couple questions keep coming up.
First, the PT2399 chip runs off 5V so the signal fed into it should be kept in a range of 0 to 5V. The PT 80 delay uses a NE570 to compand the signal. But the Rebote and others usually use an op-amp with a gain of about 1 as the input buffer. My Rebote sounds pretty good. Is there a chance of clipping? Would it be better to use an input buffer with a gain of something like 1/2 and recover gain at the output buffer?
I think if you reduced the signal going in and then boosted it afterwards there would be a risk of increased noise. I've never heard anyone complaining about distorting a PT2399 based circuit so perhaps it's not a problem. I guess if the signal was loud enough to cause distortion it would already be quite dirty.
Quote
Second, most of the examples I see use inverting stages for the input and output buffer. An inverting stage at the input is more prone to noise. This is due to the need for large input and feedback resistors. Larger resistors create more noise but are required to keep the input impedance high. Then again my Rebote sounds good. Maybe the metal film resistors produce less noise, or any noise they create adds "mojo" to the sound.
I wondered about that, because I've read about noise caused by high value resistors, but never really understood what it meant.
The reason for using an inverting input buffer in these sort of things is that the easiest way to mix the wet and dry signals is with an inverting opamp mixer. To keep the dry signal at the output in phase relative to the input you then need an inverting input buffer. I did use a non inverting buffer originally but I figured as the dry signal would always be going through the pedal it was best to keep it in phase, so I switched to an inverting input buffer.
I can't hear any noise caused by the pedal, and it doesn't appear to colour the sound when bypassed so I'm happy with it.
Hopefully someone with a bit more knowledge can explain the noise issue and whether it's something to be worried about. Or maybe there's a way to bootstrap an inverting stage or something so you can get a high impedance without big resistors?
Quote from: Jaicen_solo on August 28, 2007, 02:07:25 PM
Just a though, but have you considered adding the plug detector as a voltage input for the delay time??
Interesting, I think you could do this or an envelope follower. Basically if you get the voltages right you could feed whatever CV signal you wanted into the base of the PNP transistor to control the delay time. I've thought about adding an expression pedal/CV input but I don't think I've got room in the current box.
I'll try and do some soundclips of the more subtle modulation effects, I think I went into "Demo mode" a bit with the original ones. Hopefully the schematic should be ready tomorrow.
Quote from: slacker on August 28, 2007, 04:19:39 PMSlaps head!
Which is exactly what I just did when I realized the schematic was linked in your first post. Looks fantastic, and the samples are awesome.
Is there a way, do you think to do a momentary-on switch using the 4066 (i.e. effect on only when holding the switch down), or something like the SIB Echo 'Slam" switch, with this circuit?
Ben
The bypass switch is just a switch to ground, when it's open the effect is bypassed, when it's closed it's on, got the terminology right that time :) If you used a momentary press to make switch instead of a latching one then it would stay on whilst you held the switch down. You could even wire a momentary in parallel with a latching one to get both options.
I think you could emulate the Slam switch, I had a look at the SIB website and it basically selects the shortest delay time and increases the feedback to maximum.
If you short out the delay time pot that gives you shortest delay time, then to increase the feedback you could short out the 20k resistor. That should work, I'll try it and let you know.
Great work slaker, thanks for sharing it.
For those "true-bypass-or-die" guys, since the tail will only last a few seconds (or less), i think you could add a classic 3pdt switch to bypass all the circuit.
If you place the two switches close enough you can play with the delay on (both switches 'on') then turn off the original switch to have the tail, when the tail ends you can push both switches so the circuit is fully bypassed with the original bypass set 'on' so next time you just have to switch the 3pdt (or you can 'turn off' the 3pdt and later turn on buth switches togheter).
I don't know if it's clear, and maybe is overkill, and not worth the extra work.
Also, now I'm thinking that, since delays are usually placed at the end of chain (o near it) the "always on" buffer could be useful for driving the signal through the cable to the amp.
Another idea to make use of hte tail. If it would be possibile to have infinite repeats (as in Rebote Delay, IIRC) it would be possible to have something like a pedal note, or a chord, or a very small riff, playing "forever" while you play over it...
Just some thoughts.
BTW, again, great project slacker, and thanks for it.
Actually Im completing my PT80 (I have the box already drilled and painted, and the PCB ready), but I'm sure I'll need an other delay in the future... ;)
i noticed that you don't have the same LPF'ing as in the rebote and i don't see any caps to ground on the echo base. the soundclips are pretty similar, though...how does your LPF'ing differ?
also, is it possible to splice in a send/return earlier in the circuit? i've heard people complain about effects loops on delays because there is always one clean delay, then the effected delays. is this a problem, here? i was thinking about trying to put one in after the 1uf but before pin16 of the rebote2.5, so i guess a similar spot would be before pin16 on the echo base?
Brian:
The trick is to place the external loop so that it affects the signal going to both the LEVEL and FEEDBACK knobs. That way you will get the effect on the very first repeat, with increasing effect on each subsequent repeat. If you place the send/return so that it only affects the FEEDBACK knob, the first repeat will be clean and the effect will appear on the 2nd repeat and build after that. Placing the send/receive so that it only affects the LEVEL knob will provide effect on the first repeat as well as the subsequent repeats, but the effect will not "build" over time due to multiple passes through the loop. I think all three options could be used musically, and it might even be desirable to have a switch that selects from the three modes.
-- T. G. --
Quote from: caress on August 29, 2007, 11:43:48 AM
i noticed that you don't have the same LPF'ing as in the rebote and i don't see any caps to ground on the echo base. the soundclips are pretty similar, though...how does your LPF'ing differ?
The first lowpass filter is the 20k resistor and 4n7 cap to ground in the top right of the schematic, and the components attached to pins 15 and 16 of the PT2399. The second is the components attached to pins 11 and 12 of the PT2399. These are basically the same as on the Rebote2.5 except that has an extra RC lowpass filter in front of those stages. It looks different because the Rebote2.5 schematic shows those pins as individual opamps which makes more sense to look at.
Quote
also, is it possible to splice in a send/return earlier in the circuit? i've heard people complain about effects loops on delays because there is always one clean delay, then the effected delays. is this a problem, here? i was thinking about trying to put one in after the 1uf but before pin16 of the rebote2.5, so i guess a similar spot would be before pin16 on the echo base?
Like T.G said if you put the loop before pin 16 then everything will get processed by what you put in the loop, but you won't get the layering effect where each repeat goes back through the effect.
On the Rebote2.5 if you splice the FXloop in between the 1uF cap off pin 14 and the top of the repeats/level pots, then the FXloop is in the feedback loop so you get the layering effect, and the first repeat will be processed.
excellent work slacker!! as i'm the only one who built the slackfilter...will have to give this a try :icon_wink: :icon_lol: ::) . Maybe i'll make a pcb for this...so any mods...are still on time. If you have a perfboard design, that i can take a look at, that would be great to have an initial kick, and maybe convert it to pcb. Thanks for sharing!!
Yo
That thing sounds great!
--Brad
Quote from: swt on August 29, 2007, 01:36:43 PM
excellent work slacker!! as i'm the only one who built the slackfilter...will have to give this a try :icon_wink: :icon_lol: ::) .
Yours is probably the only one in existence then, mines in bits ;D
Quote
Maybe i'll make a pcb for this...so any mods...are still on time. If you have a perfboard design, that i can take a look at, that would be great to have an initial kick, and maybe convert it to pcb. Thanks for sharing!!
If you or anyone else could do a PCB layout that would be great, I don't have any experience in that department.
Sounds really good! You did a great job setting all your LPFs to get that amount of delay time without noise!
I've been playing around with the same basic idea in my spare time (my resistor and cap values aren't all the same as yours but not surprisingly similar given the common origins). For the modulation, I decided to go with a very primitive 1-transistor LFO and use an LED/LDR just to keep the parts count low, and intentionally bias it into an asymmetrical waveform to give it a clunky, mechanical sound like a tape echo dragging. I'm trying really hard to get the "voicing" as close to my old tube Echoplex as possible.
I was actually thinking about using diodes to ground too, mainly just to prevent the signal from getting too loud when in self-oscillation mode. I take it yours doesn't distort from those diodes but just clips in case of runaway echoes, to keep the signal from going too high? The PT2399 really sounds awful when allowed to overdrive itself. Here's a clip of mine being played with by a friend... http://skreddypedals.com/circuits/delay/elctmst_echo.mp3 Apparently self oscillation is the main thing folks are interested in when they try out an echo. :P
wonderfull!!! is it capable of infinite delay/auto-oscillation???
btw i just wait for the vero layout!
greatings
Quote from: slacker on August 29, 2007, 12:43:14 PM
Quote from: caress on August 29, 2007, 11:43:48 AM
i noticed that you don't have the same LPF'ing as in the rebote and i don't see any caps to ground on the echo base. the soundclips are pretty similar, though...how does your LPF'ing differ?
The first lowpass filter is the 20k resistor and 4n7 cap to ground in the top right of the schematic, and the components attached to pins 15 and 16 of the PT2399. The second is the components attached to pins 11 and 12 of the PT2399. These are basically the same as on the Rebote2.5 except that has an extra RC lowpass filter in front of those stages. It looks different because the Rebote2.5 schematic shows those pins as individual opamps which makes more sense to look at.
Quote
also, is it possible to splice in a send/return earlier in the circuit? i've heard people complain about effects loops on delays because there is always one clean delay, then the effected delays. is this a problem, here? i was thinking about trying to put one in after the 1uf but before pin16 of the rebote2.5, so i guess a similar spot would be before pin16 on the echo base?
Like T.G said if you put the loop before pin 16 then everything will get processed by what you put in the loop, but you won't get the layering effect where each repeat goes back through the effect.
On the Rebote2.5 if you splice the FXloop in between the 1uF cap off pin 14 and the top of the repeats/level pots, then the FXloop is in the feedback loop so you get the layering effect, and the first repeat will be processed.
ahhh yes. thanks!
As promised, here's the vero layout, I haven't posted it directly because it's pretty big.
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/v/slackers-stuff/echobasefinal.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=0 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/v/slackers-stuff/echobasefinal.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=0)
Quote from: Skreddy on August 29, 2007, 04:41:56 PM
Sounds really good! You did a great job setting all your LPFs to get that amount of delay time without noise!
Cheers, I just started with the datasheet values and then increased the size of the caps until I was happy. The filter before the feedback pot seems to make the most difference as far as controlling the background noise goes.
Quote
I was actually thinking about using diodes to ground too, mainly just to prevent the signal from getting too loud when in self-oscillation mode. I take it yours doesn't distort from those diodes but just clips in case of runaway echoes, to keep the signal from going too high?
Yeah the diodes only clip the signal when it's self oscillating just to stop it getting too loud. Means you can play around making weird noises without going deaf. Nice soundclip by the way.
Quote from: Gila_Crisis on August 29, 2007, 05:14:12 PM
wonderfull!!! is it capable of infinite delay/auto-oscillation???
Yes it can do self oscillation. You can sort of get infinite repeats but because of the the filtering the sound eventually becomes muddy and turns to mush. You can't do a DD3 style hold that keeps going forever.
This is so cool! I wish I didn't just build a PT-80! Time to order another 2399!
Excellent sounding pedal! :)
I've built the rebote delay, but it always sounded kinda flat to me since it just repeats, there's no lush echo like in memory man for instance, but this one sounds it could do it.
Chorus sample is wow! Do you have any other samples? Can it delay with lots of echo going on? Good idea for delay tails!!
I'll try and do some more sound samples at the weekend.
I've just noticed an error on the vero layout, C2 should be 1n not 10n, I'll fix it.
Those clips are great! I would love to see a PCB of this one!
This sounds great! I'm glad you posted it when you did because I was just about to order parts for a Rebote. Thank you.
thanks for the schem and layout, this looks amazing.
I was wondering, would a 2N5087 be an appropriate substitution for the BC560C ?
Quote from: smccusker on August 30, 2007, 08:02:40 PM
thanks for the schem and layout, this looks amazing.
I was wondering, would a 2N5087 be an appropriate substitution for the BC560C ?
Thanks, I think a 2N5087 should be fine in place of the BC560. A 2N3904 can be subbed for the 2N5089.
I've fixed
Quote from: slacker on August 30, 2007, 08:22:43 AM
I'll try and do some more sound samples at the weekend.
I've just noticed an error on the vero layout, C2 should be 1n not 10n, I'll fix it.
Fixed :)
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/v/slackers-stuff/echobasefinal.jpg.html (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/v/slackers-stuff/echobasefinal.jpg.html)
It's possible I don't know how to count, but it looks like the layout is too big to fit on the stripboards that Aron sells. That's kind of a bummer. Is there a source for bigger stripboards?
Ian! Outstanding!
Don't have much time at the moment, but i can't wait to give this a shot.
How did you do the vibrato sound with the cmos switching ? From the schematic it looks like the clean sound is always connected to the output.
Yeah, you're right it's not proper vibrato where you would have 100% wet signal. The clean sound is always present, but with a high enough mix of the delayed sound it's not that noticeable. I did think about doing the mixing in a way that would allow anything from 100% dry to 100% wet, but this would have made the switching more complicated because you need some way to return the dry sound to unity when you switch to bypass.
Might be something to look at again if I do a version 2.
Just a cheeky bump really, but here's a couple more sound clips.
Shine On (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebshineon.mp3) Lush delay
Self oscillation (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebselfosc.mp3) Self oscillation and knob twiddling.
If anyone's interested the maximum delay time is about 720ms.
hey, thats a very good job!!
Im wondering if anyone has a PT2399 wich dont have a use.. I cant get it here in Argentina for a rasonable price. I could trade it for germanium or something similar. ( yes, i know i should post it on the trade subforum)
http://www.banzaieffects.com/search.php?mode=search
Don't know if they ship to Argentina, but that's where I buy all my parts.
would it be possible to add an LED indicator for the LFO?
Shouldn't be too hard to add an LED to the LFO. You might just be able to hook up a current limiting resistor and LED to pin 1 of U1 or if that doesn't work hook a simple transistor buffer up to pin 1 and run the LED off that.
Just found this project - it looks great!
Just wanted to ask how you found your guitar signal was affected when in "bypass" mode. My hearing is shot so it's hilarious how things I shouldn't hear drive me totally crazy. :) For example I hate the buffering in Boss pedals so much I can ony use them with a bypass box, yet for some reason the buffering in the Bad Monkey doesn't bother me in the slightest. Any insights on the 4066?
Thanks!
Jim
Edit! As a previous poster mentioned, it would be easy enough to true bypass it but keep the SPST to allow the "trails", which is a very cool idea by the way. Great pedal!
Quote from: Jim Jones on November 21, 2007, 02:57:01 PM
Just found this project - it looks great!
Thanks :)
I think the buffer is pretty transparent, I can't hear any real difference compared with guitar straight to amp.
The pedal has an input impedance of over 1Meg, the low frequency roll off is about 7Hz and the high frequency roll off is just under 16Khz so it definitely doesn't tone suck.
The 4066s are only in the delayed signal path the clean signal doesn't go through them.
Quote from: slacker on November 21, 2007, 06:33:01 PM
The 4066s are only in the delayed signal path the clean signal doesn't go through them.
Well then - I best get on it! Thanks again!!
Jim
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v368/soma_hero/echo_basecopy.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v368/soma_hero/echo_base_lay.jpg)
Thanks for doing that Michael, it looks great. Anyone fancy etching me one up?
Excellent, Michael, much appreciated!
The vero stuff is new to me and I admit it's confusing as hell at this point. Besides, I like playing with chemicals anyhow. :)
Thanks!
Jim
Late to the party on this one...
This is really impressive work! Nice job!
perfboard layout. enjoy it. thank you
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html
Thanks Junkwork! Nice one...
John
Hi, I'm new here, but already built a few stompboxes and other stuff...
Now I tried the Echo Base, stripboard Layout, but there's no signal coming out(not even in Bypass) and the 7805 is getting pretty hot.
So, obviously I did something wrong, but what?
Would appreciate it a lot, if someone could help me.
(I could also post pictures, if it helps)
you probably have a short somewhere. make sure all the components are correct values, make sure you have no solder bridges, make sure the parts are in the right place....
The 7805 regulator might be wired wrong, they get hot when this happens, and I'm not saying this from experience mind you, it's just a hunch...
Quote from: returntable on December 04, 2007, 11:21:30 AM
Hi, I'm new here, but already built a few stompboxes and other stuff...
Now I tried the Echo Base, stripboard Layout, but there's no signal coming out(not even in Bypass) and the 7805 is getting pretty hot.
So, obviously I did something wrong, but what?
Would appreciate it a lot, if someone could help me.
(I could also post pictures, if it helps)
Have a look at the image in the original post - make sure the 7805 is oriented properly. (FYI - In the picture, the board is upside-down compared to the vero layout - get oriented, then verify component placement).
REF: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.0
To help with the debugging here's some voltages and other info that we found useful when me and Mike F were debugging his.
PT2399
1. 5v
2. 2.5v
3. 0
4. 0
5. 2.89v
6. 2.5v
7. 0.5v
8. 0.5 v
9 - 16 all 2.5v
4066
Some of the voltages change depending on if the effect is on or bypassed (off) so I've shown the voltages for the different states.
1. 4.6v
2. 4.6v
3. 0.4v
4. 0.4v
5. 0
6. 0.45v off 4.5v on
7. 0
8. 9v
9. 3v on 0.32 off
10. 4.6v
11. 4.6v
12. 8.5 on
13. 8.5 on
14. 9
When the effect is off depending on which position the tails/Boss switch is in either pin 12 or 13 will be 1.25v the other will be about 8.7 volts.
The TL072 voltages are
U3 top left of vero
1. 5v
2. 5v
3. 5v
4. 0
5. 5v
6. 5v
7. 5v
8. 9v
U1 bottom left of vero, this is the LFO
1. changes
2. 5v
3. 5v
4. 0.8v
5. changes
6. 5v
7. changes
8. 8v
The voltages on the 5089 should change depending on the position of the bypass switch.
E. 0
B. 0.63v off 0 on
C. 0.89v off 8.5v on
These are audio probe results from the PT2399
16. very quiet signal
15. delay
14. loud delay with cyclic noise
13. nothing, or possibly a very quiet signal
12. delay with hiss
11. very quiet delay with hiss
10. very quiet delay with hiss
9 . delay with cyclic noise and hiss
Quote from: junkwork on December 02, 2007, 01:23:34 PM
perfboard layout. enjoy it. thank you
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html
nice work :) anyone read Japanese?
Thanks very much everyone :)
I checked every part again, but everything seems to be in it's right place.
I found one trace I forgot to cut and one soldering bridge. The result: the 7805 doesn't get hot anymore, but still no signal coming through, no matter wether with or without effect.
The voltages I meassured mostly don't fit the ones posted by slacker.
Here's what I meassured:
PT2399
1. 5,10v
2. 1,1v
3. 0
4. 0
5. 1,64v
6. 2,43v
7. 0
8. 0,58v
9. 0,16v
12. 0,27v
14. 1,28v
The others have 2,55v
4066
1-7. 0
8. 8,11v
9. 0,71v
10. 0
11. 0
12. 0
13. 1,22v
14. 1,24v
tl072 U3
1. 2,84v
2. 1,92v
3. 5,10v
4. 0
5. 8,11v
6. 6,5v
7. 0
8. 5,1v
U1
1. 5,35v
2. 0,1v
3. 5,1v
4. 0
5. 6,62v
6. changes
7. 5,10v
8. 0
5089
e0
b0
c1,27v-on 0,75v-off
Just wondering wether a transistor could be built in the wrong way. I had a few variyng pinouts on some transitors... maybe something between the american layout and the parts here in germany?
Quote from: returntable on December 04, 2007, 06:00:37 PM
Thanks very much everyone :)
I checked every part again, but everything seems to be in it's right place.
I found one trace I forgot to cut and one soldering bridge. The result: the 7805 doesn't get hot anymore, but still no signal coming through, no matter wether with or without effect.
The voltages I meassured mostly don't fit the ones posted by slacker.
Here's what I meassured:
.....
Build an audio probe and follow the signal. When Ian and I worked out my EchoBase, I had strange voltages and signal - once I probed the circuit, I found that I soldered R6 to track 8 instead of 7 - OOPS!! Never would have found it without the audio probe. Build one - follow signal - report back... it's worth the effort!!!
Mike
Yeah, I'll do that, when I find the time ;)
Thanks a lot :)
Edit: fortunately plans for tonight changed, so I was able to do the audioprobe right away...
And my first question will out me as an amateur ;)
Are the resistors R1 and R2 supposed to distribute the incoming audio signal to the other tracks? If so, they aren't... :icon_rolleyes: even though they are the right ones.
I finally found the mistake I made... There was a very small shortcut on the input track, where it should be cut.
Thanks to a magnifying glass I found it :)
It finally works and I like it a lot :)
I'm really sorry to bother all of you again, but unfortunately an other problem occured.
Turning the Mod Speed Knob gives to audible change. I resoldered the wires about 3 times now, but that doesn't seem to be the problem.
Could it be the Pot? I used a 1MLin pot.
Could you be more specific? What kind of change? what does it sound like?
Okay, more specific: The Pot has no effect on the sound at all. I can turn it as much as I want, but nothing happens.
EDIT: So, for some reason the Mod Speed Pot works now... I didn't change anything, i just played around with the delay and suddenly it worked.
calm down, look solder side CAREFULLY.
that's what I did about 15 times now. Didn't find anything...
Could it be possible that the Modulation sets out, when the pedal is powered with a not completely full Battery? I put in a new one and it worked for a while.
I'll test it with a DC Adaptor soon to see if this could be the case.
the modulation probably won't work with a weak battery, it's probably better to use a DC supply.
The current draw is about 25ma if anyone's interested.
yep, I can confirm now that there's no problems when using a DC Supply...
I'm just glad that all Problems are now solved ::)
I just found this project & this is exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks for sharing this.
BTW, can we use 2 switchable pot for "time" control ? This way we can have a switchable "preset" of short and long delay, like Blackbox Quicksilver delay ? Is it simply just by adding second pot & a SPDT switch ?
If that can be done, can we do the same to the "speed" control ? If it's a yes, I imagine that we can build a switchable chorus & delay in a box, that would be a great fun... ;D
Could I use a spare sad 1024 in this or is this a mad question?
Can a BC550 replace the BC560 that is called for in this circuit? :icon_question:
No a BC550 is an NPN transistor, you need a PNP transistor. 2N5087s have been reported to work, but any high gain PNP should work fine.
Quote from: slacker on February 08, 2008, 05:19:22 PM
No a BC550 is an NPN transistor, you need a PNP transistor. 2N5087s have been reported to work, but any high gain PNP should work fine.
Excellent... thanks for the killer clips, by the way. This box sounds like it'll be fantastic.
One thing I've always hated about the delay I've been using is the fact that the echos cut off when the effect is bypassed. Thumbs up for that fix!
8)
I'm no wiz in digital electronics, but let's try together:
And now the tap tempo hehe...
I looked at the PT2399 datasheet and it seems like only resistance to ground connected to the pin 6 has effect on the clock frequency, hm...
The only thing that pops into mind here is the... LED-LDR combo... The tap tempo could control the oscillator circuit and the oscillator circuit could control some other chip that will eventually control the led voltage, of course this could be hard to calibrate, but I think it's possible... And of course by controlling the led voltage, we control the brightness of it (the led), eventually the dark/light resistance of the LDR is the key part as it should fall into 1k to 50k territory, but that could be obtained by putting some resistors in parallel maybe to get the total LDR/resistor combo into 50k territory... Dunno, if anyone has any other idea, please share!
Help me out here, where should I start?
Im working on it but with a diferent idea.
When finished ill post it
With the LED/LDR model, it will take a ton of calibration to get the tap to match up with the delay time
but it sounds doable....
My common sense says: what's the use of taptempo when you only have ~300 ms of delay available? To me it seems like too much trouble for too small an advantage.
My DIY-heart says: Go for it! I'm really curious if you can come up with a working design. I have a slow project going on with another new delay (based on pt2395 instead of 2399) which has 800ms of delay... I need taptempo there too!
Yes, you're right for the delay time, guess I mistaked the 2399 for 2395, now the later one could use a tap function.
Generally, when doing delays on vocals in a live situation, dub-reagge or anything else, I usually find tap function useful between 200ms and 600ms, and it usually depends on the tempo of the song, never needed any longer delay time from 750ms for vocals, so I can see it could be useful with a guitar.
This actually has ~720ms of delay not 300ms but I'd agree with you, I don't think tap tempo is that useful. A much easier and IMHO more creative solution is to add an expression pedal to control the delay time, that's what I've done.
If you wanted to add tap tempo you wouldn't need to add an LED/LDR combo you could mod the part of the circuit around the PNP transistor because the delay time is proportional to the voltage applied to the base of this transistor. At the minute this is just driven by the LFO to get the modulation effects, but in theory a tap tempo circuit that produced different voltages for different times could be hooked up to it. This would work fine in theory but I don't know how easy it would be to acurately match the voltages to specific delay times. I guess it depends how predictable the response of the transistor/PT2399 combo is.
I'd imagine the hardest bit would be designing the actual tap tempo circuit, you're on your own there I'm afraid.
Yay for Star Wars references.
I've just built mine with no problems..and I must say that this is way better than the rebote 2.5. Just one comment, I think the 100K FEEDBACK pot is too large!!!Maybe 25K-50K would be fine because this acts like the REPEAT pot in Rebote 2.5 which is 25K. Beyond 9 o'clock will start to create oscilations!!!DELAY tails is cool!..non-true bypass is not an issue plus switching is very much silent.
I used 6458DS opamp for the LFO and worked fine since(I just saw it in an old radio PCB and give it a try). I'll try TL072 soon.
And also 2N3906 instead of BC560, 2N3904 for 2N5088, 78L05(TO-92) instead of 7805. PCB measures 60mm x 70mm. :icon_biggrin:
Cool, glad the part subs worked out, good to know it doesn't need specific parts.
If you want to make the repeats pot more controllable then replace R17 (20k) with a larger resistor, 100k is a good starting point.
Quote from: slacker on February 14, 2008, 07:56:37 AM
Cool, glad the part subs worked out, good to know it doesn't need specific parts.
If you want to make the repeats pot more controllable then replace R17 (20k) with a larger resistor, 100k is a good starting point.
thanks slacker.. btw, would it be the same if i'll change the pot(FEEDBACK) to a lower value i.e. 25K?
OK THAT'S IT....YOU GOT ME.... I'M BUILDING IT.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
IS THIS SCHEMATIC IS STILL THE LASTEST AND UPDATED ...
http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/echobase.png (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/echobase.png)
THANK'S
BENT
Quote from: DimebuGG on February 14, 2008, 12:30:24 PM
thanks slacker.. btw, would it be the same if i'll change the pot(FEEDBACK) to a lower value i.e. 25K?
I don't think changing the pot to a smaller value will make much difference, it's the resistor that controls the gain of the feedback.
Quote from: bent on February 14, 2008, 12:42:03 PM
IS THIS SCHEMATIC IS STILL THE LASTEST AND UPDATED ...
http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/echobase.png (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/echobase.png)
The latest one is here http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobase.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobase.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1)
Ok..i've just read the other thread regarding the feedback resistor..anyways that 1uF in the LFO ive been using was an electrolytic("-" side to the out of the opamp and "+" side to the "-" of the opamp)..i'll replace it sooner with tantalum and see how it goes..
But this sounds ok to me with this electro..IMO... :D
Quote from: slacker on February 14, 2008, 12:55:11 PM
The latest one is here http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobase.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobase.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1)
thank's slacker....
i think i find a error in the schematic ...
At U1B, i think you invert PIN 4 and PIN 8 , you put LFO+ on pin 4 and on the layout http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html you put it on the pin 8
and vice-versa with pin 8.....
Bent
yeah you're right I'll fix that.
Great sound, great project, I like it more than my robot 2.5 :icon_razz:
Thank you
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh217/pravudh/echo002.jpg)
It's me again ::)
This time I have a question about a possible mod.
I was just wondering, while I was building a parallel Universe with an additional LFO, if it would be possible to ad a waveshaper to the echoBase? It would be very cool if you could switch or blend between two waveforms like in this (http://experimentalistsanonymous.com/diy/Schematics/Oscillators%20LFOs%20and%20Signal%20Generators/Simple%20Dual%20LFO.gif) LFO Circuit.
I will try to figure it out myself as soon as I'll find the time, but until maybe someone here has an Idea... ;)
Yeah you could do that, the example you gave is basically the same sort of LFO I used. So if you comapare that schematic with the echobase schematic it should be fairly easy to figure out where to put the pot.
So long as the output voltages are in the right range to control the PNP transistor, you can basically hook any sort of LFO you want up to it.
A square wave LFO gives a sort of octave jumping effect, as the delay switches between a short delay and a long one.
If you want something really interesting try a random LFO or a sample and hold :)
Oh great :)
I will figure it out and post the results here as soon as I find the time.
Thanks a lot :)
is there a working layout for this? i saw one person did one some time ago.
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html
Has anyone verified and successfully built the Echo Base from this layout? I was going to attempt it this week? Thanks!
Quote from: Chawk on February 18, 2008, 07:41:27 PM
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html
Has anyone verified and successfully built the Echo Base from this layout? I was going to attempt it this week? Thanks!
Oh yes! That layout is correct and verified by me. It's not scaled but I made a scaled one in pdf format.
[/quote]
Oh yes! That layout is correct and verified by me. It's not scaled but I made a scaled one in pdf format.
[/quote]
Thanks for the reply, DimebuGG! Would it be possible for you to email the scaled pdf that you made to me?
Quote from: Chawk on February 18, 2008, 10:19:57 PM
Thanks for the reply, DimebuGG! Would it be possible for you to email the scaled pdf that you made to me?
No problem just PM me your email.
Quote from: slacker on February 17, 2008, 07:46:37 PM
Yeah you could do that, the example you gave is basically the same sort of LFO I used. So if you comapare that schematic with the echobase schematic it should be fairly easy to figure out where to put the pot.
So long as the output voltages are in the right range to control the PNP transistor, you can basically hook any sort of LFO you want up to it.
A square wave LFO gives a sort of octave jumping effect, as the delay switches between a short delay and a long one.
If you want something really interesting try a random LFO or a sample and hold :)
Okay, I figured out where to put the pot... now the next question, which value should the pot have? Is 1K(like in the schem i found) okay?
Well, I found spare 25K lin Pot and tried it... it works perfectly fine :)
The Squarewave gives this delay an even more interesting sound range...
I love it! And I'm gonna try the Sample&Hold Option you were talking about... I also wanted to add a second delay time pot and a DPDT, to easily switch between two preset delay times
So, now I need a new enclosure for this sweetie. ::) And while I'm experimenting with it anyway... is it possible to make the LFO switchable too? I mean turn it on and off?
In my imagination it would be easy to put a switch between R34 and Q3... but maybe my imagination simplifies things too much ;)
I've drawn the Waveshape Pot into a part of the schematic, so that everyone can try it...:)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2281910125_d26cfe48f4_o.jpg)
I jsut now looked at this post... nice work. There's some cool effects in this circuit. :icon_cool:
just an idea - how difficult would it be to make the modulation random? could lead to some interesting sounds. maybe some sort of noise source and a S&H.
just a silly question ! ;D
for the tails/boss system to work...if i'm right....it cannot be true by-pass, cause with the footswitch we cut the in and out of the effect...i dont see how it could work....so how do you wire the in/out with the switch to make the tails effect to work proprely ??? :-\ ??? :-\
sorry for the stupid question :icon_redface: but it's really not clear to me....
bent
You're right it's not true bypass. How it works is explained in the first post in this thread :)
Basically the input and output wire go straight from the board to the in and out jacks. The circuit is always in the signal path and the stompswitch then contols the CD4066 switches to turn the effected signal on or off.
DOH ! :icon_eek:
:icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:
just found it on the schematic....... have about 20 build in my back and i didn't see that one... :icon_redface: :icon_redface: :icon_redface:
did i mention it was a stupid question...hope my brain wake's up .... :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes:
Well.... let's build it now....
thank's slacker
bent
Just finished building this last night:
http://chawk.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/cimg2189.jpg
http://chawk.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/cimg2190.jpg
This circuit sounds amazing! Slacker, thank you for putting this together!
It's not true bypass but I've never heard a cleaner delay than this. Better than the Memory Man in my opinion. To call this a delay isn't doing it justice it easily turns into chorus/vibrato/reverb/modulator.
Can't wait to try out the wavechange mod.
Chawk,
Can you email me the scaled layout that you used?
Chawk, I'd also like it if possible.
In fact if anyone has the DIY:Layout program file for this, that would be great as well. :icon_cool:
Cheers,
- JJ
Here's the resized layout based on anonymousfacelesscoward's version.
http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf
By the way... Slacker, is there any way to get an led rate indicator modded into this circuit. I imagine it could be placed on the trace leading from pin 5 of the pt2399 but I'm just guessing. Any thoughts?
Matt
Quote from: Chawk on February 29, 2008, 03:52:06 PM
I imagine it could be placed on the trace leading from pin 5 of the pt2399 but I'm just guessing.
Correction... I meant pin 6.
bump
Do you mean a delay time indicator? I'm not sure you can do this, there were some threads a while ago about pin 5 having a a frequency on it that related to the clock speed. I think someone was working on a circuit to convert this into something you could use as a delay time indicator, but I'm not sure how it worked out.
If you want an LFO speed indicator just hang an LED and current limiting resistor off pin 1 of U1.
excellent.. i'll give the LFO indicator a try... thanks for the tip! And thanks again for this killer pedal. :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: bent on February 15, 2008, 06:42:41 PM
Quote from: slacker on February 14, 2008, 12:55:11 PM
The latest one is here http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobase.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobase.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1)
thank's slacker....
i think i find a error in the schematic ...
At U1B, i think you invert PIN 4 and PIN 8 , you put LFO+ on pin 4 and on the layout http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html you put it on the pin 8
and vice-versa with pin 8.....
Bent
sorry i don't know. where is that error??
The error is only on the schematic, the layout is OK. Whoever made it must have noticed the mistake and corrected it.
All the other layouts are correct as well.
Quick question...
I was going about fitting the finished circut into the box I had just drilled and when I fired it up everything worked fine but the mod speed pot no longer was functioning. I thought it might have been a short of some kind so I took everything out of the box, but it was still not working correctly. I thought I may have burned out the pot so I swiched it up with another but no luck. I got frustrated and just put it down for the night. This morning, however, I went to take a look at it before heading out to work and, ta-dah, everything was working perfectly. I played with it for a few moments and then it crapped out again. Is it possible I have a bad cap in there? I'm wondering if I burned something when I was putting it into the box. Any ideas?
???
Thanks,
Matt
Mine was pretty finicky when it came to the power supply. Make sure you have a fresh battery or a good 9V adapter..
Did you ever get yours working Michael?
Yeah I use a dedicated 12v supply now and it works fine!
happy easter to all ya!
ive planned to build a delay long time ago, and this project finaly got me working on one. thanks slacker for sharing this!
ive built one using the japanese layout: http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/folder/903906.html had to scale it a bit
to make it fit to the components, but in the end the pcb came out perfect.
i used a 50K pot instead of a 47K for the time pot, and i didnt had BC560 here so i used a 2N5087G, which was reported to be fine.
the sound of the delay is super, i really like it, but there seems a little problem with the modulation.
trying to describe what happens, its a bit confusing, so if its unclear just ask back :)
i started out with medium delays, and started to turn mod depth knob, but in a way it not only add's the modulation it also seems to affect the delay time. when i have repeats in the delay and i turn the moddepth knob up you get that sound like youre turning the delaytime knob to a slower time, the tone of the repeats decreases.
on slapback i get around 300-400ms echo that way, even on long delay it sets delays slower.
when i set on long delays it also add's crackle noise when i turn time knob up (starts about 75% open, might be the 50Kpot?) and when i turn the moddepht up the crackle gets a bit louder and turns to a slower rate.
strange.
ok, i skipped the project for a few days and got back to it, doublechecked the solder side for cuts/bridges, seems to be fine, no strange spots there. also a friend checked it for me, because i might oversee something. then ive checked the cap values and the colorrings of the resistors, also that polarized caps. ic's are ok.
with the trannies im not shure, i might have put the 2N5087G the wrong way in, ive checked on alldatasheet.com but stupidly i took the 2N5087 datasheet than the G which has diff. pinout :( so it was wrong around first. turned that trannie then to have collector looking to the time pot (its the other way around than displayed in the layout.)
pinout is
(|
C
B
E
if i look from above when the piece is insertedin pcb. maybe ive @#$%ed that trannie when ive puttet it the wrong way round?
i have some spare here but first i need to have it clear which way it has to be, before i @#$%up another one.
today i had some time to check the voltages that slacker posted, heres my measures, the arrow points to my results.
ive runned it off a stab. dc supply, also changed that to a boss PSA but that didnt help with the problem.
PT2399
1. 5v -> 5,03v
2. 2.5v -> 2,5v
3. 0 -> 0v
4. 0 -> 0v
5. 2.89v -> 3,03v
6. 2.5v -> 2,5v
7. 0.5v -> 0,56v
8. 0.5v -> 0,58v
9 - 16 all 2.5v -> alle 2,51v
4066
Some of the voltages change depending on if the effect is on or bypassed (off) so I've shown the voltages for the different states.
1. 4.6v -> 4,37v
2. 4.6v -> 4,37v
3. 0.4v -> 0,15v
4. 0.4v -> 0,15v
5. 0 -> 0v
6. 0.45v off -> 0,19v 4.5v on -> 4,26v
7. 0 -> 0v
8. 9v -> 8,8v
9. 3v on -> 1,8v 0.32 off -> 0,19v
10. 4.6v -> 4,68v
11. 4.6v -> 4,68v
12. 8.5 on -> 8,7v
13. 8.5 on -> 8,7v
14. 9 -> 8,89v
When the effect is off depending on which position the tails/Boss switch is in either pin 12 or 13 will be 1.25v the other will be about 8.7 volts. -> 1,2v + 8,7v = ok
The TL072 voltages are
U3 top left of vero
1. 5v -> 5,03v
2. 5v -> 5,03v
3. 5v -> 5,03v
4. 0 -> 0v
5. 5v -> 5,03v
6. 5v -> 5,03v
7. 5v -> 5,03v
8. 9v -> 8,89v
U1 bottom left of vero, this is the LFO
1. changes -> changes
2. 5v -> 5,03v
3. 5v -> 5,03v
4. 0.8v -> 0,8v
5. changes -> changes
6. 5v -> 5,03v
7. changes -> changes
8. 8v -> 8,1v
The voltages on the 5089 should change depending on the position of the bypass switch.
E. 0 -> 0v
B. 0.63v off -> 0,63v 0 on -> 0v
C. 0.89v off -> 0,86v 8.5v on -> 8,5v
so, the voltages seems to be fine except for the 4066.
any suggestions to hunt the error down ?
thanks in advance
Quote from: Michael Allen on March 16, 2008, 04:34:37 PM
Mine was pretty finicky when it came to the power supply. Make sure you have a fresh battery or a good 9V adapter..
Hey Michael,
Thanks for the response. After poking and prodding around in the trouble area near the LFO stage it magically began working perfectly. I have no explanation as to what went wrong or why it started to work again but it IS working so I guess that's all that matters. Ian believes that I may have inadvertently knocked loose a solder bridge. Thanks for the suggestion about the battery though. It may be that was the problem as well.
Matt
k, worked further on this baby.
ive found some bc560 i had around :) so now that part is fixed now.
but, i still get longer delays as i turn mod depth up.
after inserting the bc560 ive checked again the voltages, and discovered this:
4066
pin1 4.37v off | 4.68v on
pin2 4.37v off | 4.68v on
pin8 1.8v off | 8.8v on
???
maybe that helps a lil bit forward
Quote from: Chawk on February 29, 2008, 03:52:06 PM
Here's the resized layout based on anonymousfacelesscoward's version.
http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf
By the way... Slacker, is there any way to get an led rate indicator modded into this circuit. I imagine it could be placed on the trace leading from pin 5 of the pt2399 but I'm just guessing. Any thoughts?
Matt
I'm interested in building this, but what are the specifications? As in what is the max delay time, what does that toggle do,...
The 4066 voltages won't be related to the delay time problem. Does the bypass work properly? If it does don't worry about the 4066 voltages.
Turning the mod depth up will make the delay slightly longer, because the modulation works by increasing and then decreasing the delay time. It shouldn't increase it by enough to be really noticeable though.
First thing I'd check is the 39k resistor across the BC560, that sets how much the maximum modulation is. If it is a larger value then the delay change will be bigger so that might be the problem.
Another thing to do to check if everything is working properly is to set the delay time pot and mod depth pot to minimum and then you should get a very short delay almost like a chorus sound rather than a definite echo. If you get an slapback sort of delay or a longer one with the settings on minimum then you might have a larger problem. Hopefully not :)
Quote from: Valoosj on March 24, 2008, 06:15:33 PM
I'm interested in building this, but what are the specifications? As in what is the max delay time, what does that toggle do,...
The max delay time is about 700ms. For an explanation of the toggle read the first post in this thread :)
thanks slacker for help i appreciate it.
just came home and checked the things you said. so first off the bypass works perfect.
ive checked the suspected 39K near BC560, measured it with an ohmmeter to ground -> 39K.
also doublechecked from the lug of the BC560 and from lug 3 of the time pot to make sure the connections there are ok -> 39K.
then i set time and mod depth to minimum, no slapback or so, i dont even can hear a repeat, as you said the pedal
reminds more like a chorus (set very decent) or a booster in this way. so no major probs :)
im gonna measure out the rest of the circuit later this evening, now its time to cook something.
(http://chawk.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/0331081405.jpg)
Here's the delay all boxed up. The etching didn't come out as perfectly as I had hoped but it gives it a vintage look that's kind of cool.
nice :)
Slacker, I was wondering if you could show me how to add a second PT2399 in series with the first, so I can obtain a clean delay of about 1000-1400ms?
The schematic on page one, is that the right one, or have there been corrected versions? I read through the topic, but I couldn't find any others.
Ok, I got some help from Auke on this.
Can I get double delay time by adding the second PT2399 like in this pedal?
http://buildyourownclone.com/pingponginstructions.pdf
Yes that would give a longer delay. You still need quite a lot of filtering to keep the noise down though so you will probably be able to get about 1000ms of delay but it wont be clean like a proper digital delay.
If you like I'll draw a schematic of how to add an extra PT2399 to the echo base at the weekend.
That would be awesome. But you got reasonably clean delay out of 1 pt2399, and that was about 600 or 700 ms, why couldn't you get 1000ms clean with two PTs then?
With 2 chips at 1000ms the sound quality will probably be similar to the longer delays on the echo base, if that's clean enough for you then that's great.
I was really just trying to point out that you won't be able to get super clean sounds, like a digital delay where the delay sounds the same as the original signal. Just making sure you don't spend a lot of time building something and end up disappointed with the results :)
But when I listened to your soundclip in the first post, that was pretty long and clean delay. I thought it would be possible to double that time (and staying as clean as it was) with an extra PT2399. Or am I dreaming now :)
Here's the schematic for adding an extra PT2399 for potentially double the delay time.
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasemod.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasemod.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1)
This could be added as a separate board fairly easily, and that's probably the best way to build it because it's completely untested at this point. I did try something similar on breadboard and the basic idea does work.
When the short/long switch is closed the extra chip essentially does nothing, when it's open it adds a preset amount of delay in addition to that selected by the original time pot. The value of the resistor marked XXX determines how much extra delay is added. I did it like this because it's easier than changing the delay time on both chips simultaneously.
Enjoy :)
Thanks a lot Ian!
No problem. I've just realised the schematic might be a bit confusing because the extra PT2399 is drawn flipped vertically. I'll redo it, but if you're following the schematic just go by the pin numbers not the actual drawing and it will be fine.
I think that makes sense ???
The numbering of the ic is wrong? If you tell me where I should put pin 1 I'm fine. I guess 1 should be where you wrote 8 right and 16 where it says 9?
The numbering is correct and the components are attached to the correct numbers, but the image is flipped. So the numbers and components that are down the right hand side should be down the left had side and the ones down the left hand side should be down the right hand side.
If you compare it to the original schematic you'll see what I mean. I'll correct it tonight.
The revised version is up now
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasemod.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasemod.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1)
should be clearer.
I have the vero for this all populated, but nes pas le echo.
I need to debug it.
Congrats on a great project.
Thanks Ian! I just need a little switch for that short/long to make it work?
The long delay resistor, what would be the 'longest' clean value? Just to get an idea which values I should get for testing.
You also said something about other values I might need to change, can you clarify that a bit? That way I can get some testing values within a certain range.
Thanks a lot already for this project!
Quote from: nelson on April 17, 2008, 01:34:27 PM
Congrats on a great project.
Cheers :) Hopefully you'll get yours debugged.
Quote from: Valoosj on April 17, 2008, 03:46:26 PM
Thanks Ian! I just need a little switch for that short/long to make it work?
Yeah, when the switch is shut the 100R resistor is connected to ground giving the extra PT2399 has a very short delay which you won't hear when combined with the original one. When the switch is open the 100R and the XXX resistor are connected in series to ground so you get a delay from the extra PT2399 which is added to the original one to give the longer settings.
Quote
The long delay resistor, what would be the 'longest' clean value? Just to get an idea which values I should get for testing.
I'd try values between about 30k and 47k.
Quote
You also said something about other values I might need to change, can you clarify that a bit?
I'm not sure if anything will need changing but with 2 chips there will be a bit more noise than with one so you might need to change some of the capacitors to filter it out. At a guess the 4n7, 15n or 470p capacitors might need increasing in size, so maybe get some extra 1n, 10n and 22n caps to experiment with.
Like I said this mod works in theory but I haven't actually built it so we might have to figure it out as we go :)
Ok thanks. I'll order my stuff soon and keep you posted.
I want to order parts for the echo base, but I only have one question before I do so. This was asked once before(not by me) but wasn't verified. So, Is it possible to make the lfo switchable?? to turn it on and off as one pleases?? Thanks, peace...
you could hook up a spdt switch before the 220R resistor connected mod depth pot. one lug goes to the mod depth pot, other lug goes to ground, middle lug goes to 220R resistor.
Another way to do it is to short out the cap in the integrator part of the LFO, this stops the LFO. To do this add a switch that shorts out pins 1 and 2 of the LFO opamp.
by short out do you mean simply lifting one leg of the cap(1uf) or to bridge both legs together(so that both pins 1 and 2 bridge)??
Just bridge pins 1 and 2 together.
got it, thank you very much!
Built it and sounds great. I dig the lfo better than the commonsound add on one. I'll have to try the waveshaper mod. I used the anonymousface layout. For some reason i thought all the ics faced the same direction and fried one of the tl072s. Better that than the pt2399! So be careful! Anyway, I am in the process of boxing this up and have got a rad graphic and plan on clearcoating it. I would like to keep it true to the original and call it ECHO BASE in the same font thats on the schematic. Anyone know the font name?
Thanks for a fun build slacker and anonymousface!!
Cheers, I can't remember what the font is called off the top of my head. I've still got it on my PC so I'll have a look for it later..
Thanks, I'll be sure to check back.
It's called checkbook, I think I got it from here http://www.1001freefonts.com/checkbook.htm (http://www.1001freefonts.com/checkbook.htm).
ok, i'm back with just one more question. Since the wet signal is being mixed to the dry signal via the volume pot, how could I add a pot to control the volume of only dry signal?? can it be done??
I believe you can control the dry volume by wiring up a pot for the 10k resistor between pin 1 and pin 6 of the u3 TLO72. Slacker, thanks for the font!
Yeah that would work, putting say a 100k pot in series with the 10k would let you reduce the dry level. If you also changed the 10k to a smaller value that would let you increase the dry volume.
The only problem with doing this is that the dry signal is present when the effect is bypassed so the dry volume pot would affect the bypassed volume. There's no easy way to change the dry volume only when the effect is engaged.
of course, you could hook up a volume pot mod so you could control the mix in realtime, and then put it back to 10 for the bypass.
right?
Thinking about it, if you put a pot in series with the 10k resistor as mentioned above you could then use a switch to short out the pot when you bypass the effect that would return the volume level to unity.
You could do this by using a DPDT switch for the bypass switch and use the spare halve to short out the pot.
great! i'll give it a try then and see how it works out. thanks a lot!
Hey Ian
Beginning of Juli I'm going to try the extra time mod, and let you know how it works out.
In the meantime I was thinking that it might come handy if you were to make a settings list on how to get the chorus, pitch bending,...
After listening to the clips in the first post and on page two I wonder how you are able to get all these nice sounds.
I have been meaning to build the Echo Base for a while now. I just started last night. I'm using Junkworks layout here: http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html
I'll be using that same layout. It's postponed until my exams are finished though.
Hi there,
sorry, but I'm not able to understand all the tone-filtering and shaping in this circuit, maybe someone can point me to the parts where most of the filtering is done so I might to experiment with tone-controll for the delays?!
Thanks,
Timm
Hi..it is possible to add a loop send-return between the 20K resistor and the 100n cap across the pin 2 of the feedback pot? In this way, connecting an effect in this loop, this effects influences the repeats always more..right? If we use, for example, an octave up in the loop, the first repeat would be 1oct up, the second would be 2oct up, etc.. (obviously the feedback pot should be set low, with a few of repeats, otherwise the pitch grow to much)
Another question: why there are 2 1N4148 across the feedback pot?
thanks so much!
Dimitri
Adding a send return where you've suggested would work fine. You might want to add a buffer to the return and possibly one to the send but it will probably be fine without any.
The diodes don't really do anything unless you turn the feedback pot up very high then they clip the signal and stop the repeats getting too loud. The pedal will still do the usual feedback sounds you get from delays but the volume stays at a more usable level.
Quote from: slacker on July 09, 2008, 12:20:30 PM
The diodes don't really do anything unless you turn the feedback pot up very high then they clip the signal and stop the repeats getting too loud. The pedal will still do the usual feedback sounds you get from delays but the volume stays at a more usable level.
I added a "feedback" switch and pot to my Rebote 2, could I also put two diodes on the pot as you did here to control the high volume with feedback?
Here is how I have it wired up...
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c153/kahelia/pedalia/Dealy_mom_feedback.jpg
Yeah just put the diodes from lug 2 of the repeats pot to the outer lug that is connected to ground. I originally did this as a mod to my Rebote 2.5 and it works fine.
Awesome! Do the diodes need to be anti-parallel ? One facing one way and the other facing the opposite way?
yeah anti parallel, basically they're just clipping diodes like you get in distortion pedals.
After some hours of soldering ( it's 1AM overhere...) I can say that this pedal rocks!
I added the extra time mod (see pics below for layout and mod to motherboard) and it works. The only thing is that my feedback started oscillating very soon. Since the pedal isn't finished yet I cannot say if this is my fault or not. The oscillation started even when the pedal was off. But no true bypass so...
I'll flip the switch to turn the extra time off so I can see if this is causing it. Otherwise I'll flip the feedback pot back to a 5-10K.
Slacker, any chance of getting some nice settings you use?
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/Valoosj/Echobasepnp.gif)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/Valoosj/EchoBaseaddon-1.gif)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/Valoosj/PnPEchoBaseadd.gif)
what is the above echo base add on for? and how does it connect to the main board?
-Aaron
edit: Is it this mod?
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasemod.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
Yeah it's the extra delay time mod.
Yorick does the mod work Ok, how clean are the longer delays?
The reason it's oscillating very easily is probably because the mod will add a lot of extra volume to the delayed signal. I didn't think about this when I drew it up. To solve this you could try making the 47k resistors on pins 14 and 15 of the original PT2399 smaller that will reduce the volume in that stage. Or you could just make the 20k resistor after the feedback pot bigger, making the feedback pot smaller won't do very much.
Sorry but I can't give you any example settings at the moment because I don't have the original pedal and I haven't had time to build another one :(
I'll try that 20K thingie. Today I had rehearsal so I just took the pedal in it's current state, with the knob for extra time on the inside. The speed pot wired backwards, and the feedback pot causing oscillation after turning the knob from 0-2. I hope the increase in resistance after the pot will cure it, since I can't really dial in the ammount of feedbacks. Either 1, 2 or 500000 :D
The delay is reasonably clean, but I really need to test it a bit more.
As for adding it to the original echo base with the above layout, check the schematic and the original pnp. I have added some holes, and you need to leave out one jumper (top left). The notes on the add on board show you where to add it. If it works the way it should I'll make notes on the motherboard for the echo base so it's easy to know how to add it.
Finished mine about a week ago and the only thing I did to it was the waveshape mod which is really cool(I'll do more to the next one!). Could this(waveshape pot) be done to a Deluxe Memory Man?? and maybe add a speed control to the lfo also??
I just fired it up again. Increased the 20 up to 100. Turning the feedback pot up to half makes it go crazy with feedback, which is cool. I do wish I could just get 1 delay sound when turning the pot to zero. I always hear some quieter delays.
When bypassed I also keep hearing a delayed sound albeit very quiet. Is this normal?
The delayed sound get some OD when you add the extra delay time. If I could get the sound during bypass out of the pedal and be able to tune in just 1 delay sound then it will be a keeper on my board.
Are these problems with the extra board attached? If they are try removing it and making the pedal stock, if the problems go away then it's probably the increase in delay volume added by the extra board that's the problem.
Try changing the 47k resistors attached to pins 14 and 15 of both PT2399s to 27k that should give the double version about the same gain as the single version which will hopefully solve the problems.
I'll give it a try.
I joined this forum just for this. Guess I'm a little late to this party but this is very cool 8)
Quick question - how does it switch between the modulation types? I'm pretty unfimiliar with some of thhe chips in there, so it could be a stupid question. I have every intention of building this in a month or two :D
Welcome aboard :)
The way the modulation works is like this, the delay time of the PT2399 is set by the resistance between pin 6 of the chip and ground, the greater the resistance the longer the delay. The BC560 transistor is used as a variable resistor and this is driven by a triangular wave the speed and voltage of which are controlled by the Speed and Depth pots. As the voltage driving it goes up and down the resistance of the transistor goes up and down and so the length of the delay goes up and down. It's basically like getting any delay and turning the delay time pot backwards and forwards whilst you're playing, only you don't need 3 hands to do it :)
The different modulation sounds are made with different settings of the Speed, Depth and Time controls there's no switching between different sounds.
Basically if you want the chorus type sounds you set the Time to a very short delay, set the Speed to what ever you like and keep the Depth quite low, increasing the depth gets you the vibe sounds and increasing it further gives you the pitch bending.
The modulated echo sounds are made in the same way but with the Time set to a longer setting.
Hey thanks a lot :)
I'm not going to lie, it could be the coolest, most useful effect that ever happened. Even before an overdrive :icon_twisted:
It was definitly the clip of Shine On You Crazy Diamond that sold me. Thanks again for teh awesomeness.
Can I use BC550 instead of 2N5089? Well, I know I can, but will it make any difference? It's in the bypass section, so I don't think it makes a big difference...
Thanks
(JD)^S
That should be fine, the transistor is being used as a switch so any NPN transistor should work.
i think i'm going to build this one, but instead of the common Level control I wanna add a Mix/Blend pot (think like the deluxe memory man).
do you think this way is gonna work???
(http://i34.tinypic.com/bjaayt.png)
of coarse i'm gonna build it with out the boss/tails switching system, but with a normal true bypass
That should work. Personally I would put caps between the opamps and the mix pot so that there is no DC on the pot and then connect the wiper of the pot straight the 100k resistor. You might also need to experiment with the pot value, because using a 100k you might get a volume drop in the centre position, maybe try a 20k instead.
You might also need to reduce the volume of the delayed signal so it is about the same level as the dry signal in the 50/50 mix position. To do this you can increase the value of the 10k resistor connected to pin 6 of the opamp.
The only other slight concern is that the delayed signal can possibly travel through the pot and back into the effect. I don't know if this is actually an issue and the DMM seems to mix the 2 signals in the same way so it's probably fine.
You could put a buffer between the input opamp and the mix pot, that will make sure this isn't an issue, but I would build it without first and see what happens.
Good luck with it :)
thank you a lot!
i'll let you know when i got some results
I've set tommorow aside to try and build this thing. I was going through all my parts just now and I realized that I accidentally ordered an electrolytic for C25 (the 1UF between the LFO oscillator's output and inverted input) and I'd like to know if this is still usable, and if so, how should I orient it?
I think it will work and it doesn't matter which way round you put it. I think it's probably better to replace it with a non polarised cap though if you can.
Sweet, changing the 2 47Ks to 20K worked. When I hit a chord in bypass, and immediatly mute it you still hear a faint repeat. This is probably normal as the pedal isn't true bypass. Other than that, this is a really cool delay. Definetly a keeper. Thank you slacker!
as for the extra delay time, if anybody asks for it I can post the adapted layouts and stuff. The repeat gets some OD, but that doens't bother me at all.
Quote from: Valoosj on July 28, 2008, 05:07:11 PM
Sweet, changing the 2 47Ks to 20K worked. When I hit a chord in bypass, and immediatly mute it you still hear a faint repeat. This is probably normal as the pedal isn't true bypass. Other than that, this is a really cool delay. Definetly a keeper. Thank you slacker!
as for the extra delay time, if anybody asks for it I can post the adapted layouts and stuff. The repeat gets some OD, but that doens't bother me at all.
I'm interested in the adapted layouts, post 'em up!
Quote from: evilpaul on July 28, 2008, 07:34:21 PM
Quote from: Valoosj on July 28, 2008, 05:07:11 PM
Sweet, changing the 2 47Ks to 20K worked. When I hit a chord in bypass, and immediatly mute it you still hear a faint repeat. This is probably normal as the pedal isn't true bypass. Other than that, this is a really cool delay. Definetly a keeper. Thank you slacker!
as for the extra delay time, if anybody asks for it I can post the adapted layouts and stuff. The repeat gets some OD, but that doens't bother me at all.
I'm interested in the adapted layouts, post 'em up!
+1
Sorry for the delay ;D (pun very much so intended)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/Valoosj/Echobasepnp-1.gif)
Now I just have one question for you. I want to use an LDR to add more feedback since I love the oscillation. How should I wire it? Hook up one leg to lug 1 and the other to lug 3 of the feedback pot? I want it to increase in feedback as I dim the light on the LDR.
Is the schematic on the first page 100% correct?
I was able to successfully build one using the schematic on the first page. Just the feedback resistor needs to be selected for your personal taste.
Quote from: DWBH on August 06, 2008, 06:58:55 PM
Is the schematic on the first page 100% correct?
Yes, it's correct. The version in my layout gallery had a few pin numbering errors on the 2 opamps but I've corrected that now as well.
Use the verified layout in the pdf file. I used that pcb to add the extra time mod.
Nobody knows how to do the thing I asked in my previous post?
Is there a wiring diagram for the jacks and switches? I'm kinda new to reading the layouts. Also, is their a replacement for the 7805 transistor? Small bear doesn't carry them. Thanks
-John
My vero layout show the wiring for the jacks and switches, it's the same which ever layout you use.
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/echobasefinal.jpg.html (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/echobasefinal.jpg.html)
The 78L05 that smallbear carries should be fine, I think other people have used them.
http://www.smallbearelec.com/Categories.bok?category=ICs+-+Voltage++Regulators+and+Converters (http://www.smallbearelec.com/Categories.bok?category=ICs+-+Voltage++Regulators+and+Converters)
Thanks Slacker!
Since no one feels like answering my question I'll come up with the solution. Slacker, could you verify this?
If I add and LDR on LUG 2 and 3 (left and middle with the shaft down and the lugs facing me) would that increase the feedback when I dampen the incoming light on the LDR?
I haven't been able to test it, but I think this should do it.
Here's a pic of my finished Echo Base fields.
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/Valoosj/DSC_3137.gif)
Regarding verified layouts, I can attest that the latest anonymousfacelesscoward layout is good. Some may like it as it's a good bit smaller than his original one. I was able to squeeze it into a 1590. I won't post it since it's not mine but you can find it on his site.
i built it and i'm really pleased, it sounds really really good!!!
btw what value do you suggest for R17? on mine i used the standard 20k resistor, but it's too low, already before 3/4 of the feedback pot it start selfoscillating!!! :icon_eek:
what type of switch? i know you only need single throw, but is it momentary like boss that is required or is latching required?
For the bypass footswitch you need a SPST latching or use a half a SPDT latching as they are probably easier to get hold of.
Is the toggle switch a on(on) w/ 3 lugs? I thinks that's right, but just checking before i pick one up. Also, on the newer layout, do all the ic's face the same way? thanks
Yeah the tails/Boss toggle is a SPDT on/on latching switch.
Not sure about the layout, you mean the compact anonymousfaceless one?
yes, the anonymousfaceless one. It appears they all face the same way, but I think I read that someone fried an ic assuming the same thing. Thanks Slacker!
Quote from: Gila_Crisis on August 11, 2008, 05:01:56 PM
i built it and i'm really pleased, it sounds really really good!!!
btw what value do you suggest for R17? on mine i used the standard 20k resistor, but it's too low, already before 3/4 of the feedback pot it start selfoscillating!!! :icon_eek:
Gila, Slacker suggests trying a 100K resistor there. I found that mine would oscillate very quickly with the 20K resistor so I changed it and now it won't start oscillating till about 4 O'Clock. Further on from that gets pretty crazy which is great. Hope that helps.
Quote from: ppatchmods on August 12, 2008, 12:26:19 PM
yes, the anonymousfaceless one. It appears they all face the same way, but I think I read that someone fried an ic assuming the same thing. Thanks Slacker!
If you look closely at the compact layout you'll see that anonymousfacelesscoward made pin 1 of each IC square to make orientation easier. That layout is so teeny that it's easy to miss them so look closely ;)
Just make sure that pin 1 of your IC is in that pad and you should be dancin'. Hope that helps.
Thanks Filament! This should do it for the questions, but I was wondering if someone had the wiring diagram for the pots, switches, etc for the anonymousfaceless layout? It is a little different from the original and I am new to reading the layouts. Thanks
Quote from: Filament on August 12, 2008, 02:34:25 PM
Quote from: Gila_Crisis on August 11, 2008, 05:01:56 PM
i built it and i'm really pleased, it sounds really really good!!!
btw what value do you suggest for R17? on mine i used the standard 20k resistor, but it's too low, already before 3/4 of the feedback pot it start selfoscillating!!! :icon_eek:
Gila, Slacker suggests trying a 100K resistor there. I found that mine would oscillate very quickly with the 20K resistor so I changed it and now it won't start oscillating till about 4 O'Clock. Further on from that gets pretty crazy which is great. Hope that helps.
thank you! it's what i allready did and now it works fine! maybe i'll give a try to a more higher value but with 100k it really better than before!
btw awesome sounding delay!!!!
i'm glad i built it!
Is there anyplace I could purchase a couple of boards for the Echo Base?
theehman, john lyons printed me up one real nice like!
Tonight at rehearsal I discovered a flaw in the extra time mod. You have to put the switch so that the extra time works. If not the delay does not function at all. After you connected the power you can set the switch any way you want, but when you plug in the power it has to be set for long delay.
That's weird, the long/short switch just changes the delay time on the extra board, I can't see how it could stop the pedal working. You sure it's wired correctly, it looks like it is on your layout but it might be worth checking it.
Everything works as it should. Just not when the switch is on short delay when you connect the power. I've done enough exprimenting tonight to be sure.
Try turning it on with the switch in the short position and then measure the voltages on the 5 volt regulator, I'm wondering if it's possible that the second board draws slightly to much power in the short position and that stops the regulator working properly when you turn it on. It shouldn't do if you used a 7805 and even if you used a lower power 78L05 I think it should have enough power, but I can't think what else it could be.
yesterday i was playing with it. on clean it's super quiet, but on crunch and lead sounds when it's on and i don't play i can haer a really low tick-tick coming from the lfo, which disappers when i turn the speed-knob all the way up.
there is a way to solve this little problem?
Having trouble finding a 1uf non-polarized cap. Is there anything I can replace it with? Maybe a different value or can I use a polarized cap? thanks
I used a polyester cap for mine. Little bit bigger than a 100 nano greencap and supposedly quite stable. But its only built and untested yet. I'm just doing a new pot on my test amp. But even two 470 nano green caps in parallel will do the trick... but they're quite big.
Quote from: ppatchmods on August 13, 2008, 04:24:54 PM
Having trouble finding a 1uf non-polarized cap. Is there anything I can replace it with? Maybe a different value or can I use a polarized cap? thanks
instead you can use two 470nF in parallel or a 680nF in parallel with a 330nF
I just used 2 470n ceramic caps in the original.
i almost resolved my tick problem with the lfo. i putted a 4558 instead of the TL072 for the lfo and it' seam to be quiter, btw the click is only hearable with the guitar volume fully closed.
well tomorrow i'll try to shorten a bit the wires of the depth and speed pots.
Quote from: Gila_Crisis on August 13, 2008, 10:25:19 AM
yesterday i was playing with it. on clean it's super quiet, but on crunch and lead sounds when it's on and i don't play i can haer a really low tick-tick coming from the lfo, which disappers when i turn the speed-knob all the way up.
there is a way to solve this little problem?
for the "thik" put a 100 ohms resistor in series whit the 9 volts +
Hey Slacker, off topic, but will those 4066's switch a pulsed DC on the in outs, Y and Z, controlled, EN, by a timed pulse from a 555 without the two timings interacting? So do you know if the in and outs of the 4066 are completely uninteractive with the control?
I wanna switch a kids music toy with pulsed DC and control it with a 555 driving a 4017 decade counter so I can sequence up the toy.
Hi,
Just built this today using the PCB layout by anonymousfacelesscoward- many thanks to Ian (slacker) for designing this, thanks to anonymousfacelesscoward for the layout. I'm very impressed with it.
I couldn't get my hands on a BC560, so I used a 2n3906 and can report it works fine.
At first I used a LM358 instead of a TL072 for the LFO, just for lower power draw and decreased chance of ticking - but the LFO didn't work, so I swapped in a TL072 and it worked no problems. No ticking anyway!
Thanks again, nice to finally have a DIY delay that I'm happy with
Jonathan
in mine i add a strange problem. the padel started to do a strange noise at high delay times. something like a blub-blub-blub.
i went mad about this, but i solved the problem by changing the caps across pins 9-10 and 11-12 of the PT2399. instead of 100nF i found out that using higher values make the pedal quiter and killed the noise.
the best was using a bigger value on pin 11-12 (680nF) than on 9-10 (220nF).
anther way to solve this was using a bigger value for the cap across pins 13-14 (10nF was the best) but then the repets become really dark sounding (so i went back to 1nF). if you want here just use max. a 3.9nF cap.
this mod lower a bit the feedback range but you can always change the resistor on lug 2 of the feedback pot (on mine i add a 100k instead of the 20k).
Hi everyone I'm anonymousfacelesscoward. I prepared sound samples of my EchoBase.
http://warehouse.nusutto.jp/diy.html
In case no one else has done so, let me say THANKS!
Would you say this is on par with the sound quality of a Boss DD-4 or DD-5 ??? I've tried a few different things to get my Rebote 2/2.5 sounding better (cleaner sounding delays, less treble roll off, more real sounding) and I've been unimpressed. I might give this one a try instead of buying the Boss.
It has a lot less filtering than the rebotes, as I wasn't trying to get an analogue delay type sound, so it is brighter/cleaner sounding. Having said that it's not as clean as a DD3 especially on longer delays, I guess it's somewhere between the two.
The sound clips in the first post give a pretty good impression of what it sounds like.
Have people found that the depth control works well? It seems odd to me that the LFO output is centered around +5V, but the depth control is tied to ground. This means the bias on the transistor will change as you adjust the depth. Maybe there should be a cap off the output of the LFO?
Here's how the modulation works hopefully this will explain the depth control. The resistance of the PNP transistor is proportional to the voltage on its base the greater the voltage the greater the resistance. With 0 volts on its base the resistance is so small that it doesn't affect the delay time of the PT2399 the maximum resistance is set by the parallel resistance of the transistor and the 39k resistor across the collector and emitter.
The depth pot is connected to ground so that when it's turned all the way down there is 0 volts on the base of the transistor which turns the modulation off.
Like you said the voltage of the LFO is centred around 5 volts and swings between about 3 and 7 volts. It then goes though the voltage divider made up of the 240k resistor and the depth pot which lowers it. If you turn the depth pot all the way up the base of the transistor swings between about 1.8 and 2.6 volts and the resistance sweeps from something low up to the maximum so you get a large change in the delay time.
With the pot turned almost all the way down the voltage on the base swings between much lower voltages say between 30 and 40mv so the resistance is much lower and only changes by a small amount so you only get a small change in the delay time.
Hope that makes sense :)
Quote from: slacker on August 25, 2008, 06:58:46 AM
Here's how the modulation works hopefully this will explain the depth control. The resistance of the PNP transistor is proportional to the voltage on its base the greater the voltage the greater the resistance. With 0 volts on its base the resistance is so small that it doesn't affect the delay time of the PT2399 the maximum resistance is set by the parallel resistance of the transistor and the 39k resistor across the collector and emitter.
The depth pot is connected to ground so that when it's turned all the way down there is 0 volts on the base of the transistor which turns the modulation off.
Like you said the voltage of the LFO is centred around 5 volts and swings between about 3 and 7 volts. It then goes though the voltage divider made up of the 240k resistor and the depth pot which lowers it. If you turn the depth pot all the way up the base of the transistor swings between about 1.8 and 2.6 volts and the resistance sweeps from something low up to the maximum so you get a large change in the delay time.
With the pot turned almost all the way down the voltage on the base swings between much lower voltages say between 30 and 40mv so the resistance is much lower and only changes by a small amount so you only get a small change in the delay time.
Hope that makes sense :)
I think that does make sense. Thank you.
So, where did you source most of your parts? I've never seen caps like that before. I try to order from mouser but even the resistors are confusing (like what size and stuff, I just dont know). Also, what size board is that? Did you get it from DIYStompboxes store? Any help would be great :icon_mrgreen: I think I'll start building it soon.
Quote from: mth5044 on September 04, 2008, 03:19:40 PM
So, where did you source most of your parts? I've never seen caps like that before. I try to order from mouser but even the resistors are confusing (like what size and stuff, I just dont know). Also, what size board is that? Did you get it from DIYStompboxes store? Any help would be great :icon_mrgreen: I think I'll start building it soon.
I believe most people etch their own PCBs but I can tell you that John Lyon's will etch one for you and at a very fair price.
As for resistor sizes, typically you'll want to order 1/4 watt resistors. Hope that helps.
I bought stripboard from Aron (diystompboxes) to build this, but it was the wrong size, I had to tighten up slacker's layout a little bit to make it fit. It was a good learning experience for me, but I think I'd definately get a pcb if I was ever going to build another one of these..
I used all 1/8watt metal film resistors in my build. I do the search and then sort by price and get whatever's cheapest and always get extras. If you're building on perf using slacker's layout, I'd try not to get all boxed film capacitors (the little colored square capacitors) because they usually have short leads and can't be flexed too much. I think the only onboard component I wasn't able to get from Mouser for this was the PT2399, and I got that from Small Bear as well as the enclosure, switches, pots, knobs, jacks, led/bezel. I'm sure some of that stuff could be gotten from Mouser, but the price isn't that different between the two.
futurlec and others (digitech, mouser, allied) sell larger vero boards, although kudos for supporting aron!
Quote from: Filament on September 04, 2008, 04:35:16 PM
Quote from: mth5044 on September 04, 2008, 03:19:40 PM
So, where did you source most of your parts? I've never seen caps like that before. I try to order from mouser but even the resistors are confusing (like what size and stuff, I just dont know). Also, what size board is that? Did you get it from DIYStompboxes store? Any help would be great :icon_mrgreen: I think I'll start building it soon.
I believe most people etch their own PCBs but I can tell you that John Lyon's will etch one for you and at a very fair price.
As for resistor sizes, typically you'll want to order 1/4 watt resistors. Hope that helps.
Echo Base PCB for sale (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=70121.0/)
Thanks for the plug Joe and Dave!
I do still have some Echo Base boards for sale.
(http://www.mrdwab.com/john/EchobasePCB.jpg)
John
So can someone tell me whats the difference between this delay and the PT-80 delay on tonepad or ggg? Deciding which one to make, which ones better.
i'm all out of .1uF!!!!!! i'm also out of tlo72. I will trade an etched echo base board to anyone who can give me a bunch of .1uFs and a bunch of tl072...
Quote from: rm -rp ./Matt* on September 05, 2008, 01:05:08 AM
So can someone tell me whats the difference between this delay and the PT-80 delay on tonepad or ggg? Deciding which one to make, which ones better.
..modulation. I'd say start reading page one and listen to the samples
Quote from: Barcode80 on September 05, 2008, 01:37:33 AM
i'm all out of .1uF!!!!!! i'm also out of tlo72. I will trade an etched echo base board to anyone who can give me a bunch of .1uFs and a bunch of tl072...
where are you from??
Quote from: Gila_Crisis on September 05, 2008, 07:57:18 AM
Quote from: Barcode80 on September 05, 2008, 01:37:33 AM
i'm all out of .1uF!!!!!! i'm also out of tlo72. I will trade an etched echo base board to anyone who can give me a bunch of .1uFs and a bunch of tl072...
where are you from??
USA, TN
I've problems with my Echo base but after seeing the demon delay, or something like that, I've realised that in my hurry to copy, and not properly check, my original schematic drawing I put a 100 nano cap between pins 13 and 14 instead of a 1nano. No wonder theres no output on pin 14. I think I said I had a bigger output on 12 than 14 and know I know why. From here on in I'll be double and triple checking my drawings.
Quote from: Dimitree on July 08, 2008, 12:35:54 PM
Hi..it is possible to add a loop send-return between the 20K resistor and the 100n cap across the pin 2 of the feedback pot? In this way, connecting an effect in this loop, this effects influences the repeats always more..right? If we use, for example, an octave up in the loop, the first repeat would be 1oct up, the second would be 2oct up, etc.. (obviously the feedback pot should be set low, with a few of repeats, otherwise the pitch grow to much)
Another question: why there are 2 1N4148 across the feedback pot?
thanks so much!
Dimitri
I'm sorry to pull out this older post, but I'm not sure if I understand this one correct ... Am I right assuming that the loop should be inserted between the 20k connected to the Feedback-pot lug2 and the 100n following this 20k? Or should it be inserted at pin3 of the Feedback-pot? I've seen talking of both ways and am not sure which one is the right one or if both are working the same ... thanks!
I just replaced the wrong 100nano with the proper 1nano and it all goes fine but I noticed that endless repeats were real easy to get and suffered very quickly from heavy bass, I suppose from the pick attack, coming through so I changed the 100nano after the 20k from the feedback pot to 15nano and immediately found I could get longer repeats before oscillation began with the attack noise from picking so I might just put a buffer in there with a bandpass filter so I can get lows dropped at about 1.2 -1.6k and cut highs a few octaves above that and, of course, that means I could use the same set of buffers to create a send and return path so in answer to the question above I think the point between the 20k and the 100 nano is a good place to put in the send and return. Oh the other thing I'll do is remove the 10k resistor between the input and output amps and throw a 100k - 250k log pot in there so I can cut the intial unaffected signal and just have the delayed signal at the output. With all those knobs to twiddle the original signal just gets in the way.
Oh, and an envelope filter, like a slow gear or anything that rolls up the volume from 0, is going to be great with this gizmo.
My hats off to Mr Slacker at last, lazy and impatient me realises it's all my fault that its taken so long, for a great build! :icon_biggrin:
just a quick question :icon_question:
can the circuit be powered by 12 volt instead of 9 volt ? or do i have to change some value to make it work on 12 volt ?
thank's
bent
It will work fine on 12 volts with no modifications. The only thing to take care of is if you're using an unregulated power supply just make sure the voltage doesn't go above 15volts or you'll destroy the CD4066.
Quote from: slacker on September 06, 2008, 11:51:43 AM
It will work fine on 12 volts with no modifications. The only thing to take care of is if you're using an unregulated power supply just make sure the voltage doesn't go above 15volts or you'll destroy the CD4066.
thank you very much slacker... :icon_biggrin:
cool effect by the way.... :icon_wink:
bent
Do we need "specially selected gains" for the bc560 & 5089? Or can I just solder randomly selected ones in without a worry?
No need for any selecting, any will work fine.
Quote from: Barcode80 on September 05, 2008, 01:14:25 PM
Quote from: Gila_Crisis on September 05, 2008, 07:57:18 AM
Quote from: Barcode80 on September 05, 2008, 01:37:33 AM
i'm all out of .1uF!!!!!! i'm also out of tlo72. I will trade an etched echo base board to anyone who can give me a bunch of .1uFs and a bunch of tl072...
where are you from??
USA, TN
mh... it's a bit too much far away from switzerland......
hey there, well this is a little offtopic but I tried getting help in it's own topic with no luck and since the idea came from the echobase I thought maybe I could try here. Since I really like the echobase with the waveshape control, I'd like to add one to my deluxe memory man if that is possible. Below the LFO section of the DMM. Any info greatly appreciated.
(http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/1081/lfomemorymanop4dh1.png)
I would suggest that the oscillator is basically fine as it is but VR5 becomes depth and R57 is replaced with pot which becomes speed then R58 is also replaced with a pot, becoming triangle/square and the centre lug goes to thhe top lug of VR5 which is cut from pin 7 and the switch. I'm not sure but that would make it essentially the same as the LFO on the echobase except for the transistor that adjusts the length of pulse over the delay time setting.
hey sean k, thanks man. What value would you suggest to use?? I'll do it as soon as I get a new voltage regulator which I shorted and fried while measuring(D'oh!)
It ain't gospel buddy, I'm just making a semi literate guess and hoping someone else will pipe up and set us straight. Usually bigger resistance in a oscillator equal lower hertz and the same with caps, bigger caps equal longer wavelengths, so it looks like chorus should be vibrato and vice versa. The 910k could be a 1MB or a 500k with a 470k switched in or out for short and long and the others, the triangle/ square wave would be 100k I suppose with a 20k resistor in series with the square wave end which I think is pin
(carried on, opps) 7. Look back earlier in the thread for the schematic for the mod to the Oscillator and you'll see the similarities. But lets see if someone jumps in and confirms what I'm hoping is right.
Just bought a PCB from John. I am beyond excited. :icon_mrgreen:
Except I still have to manage to put together a mouser list, which will take me at least a week :icon_mad: stupid mouser and your confusingness.
Just finished my echobase, but got a few problems:
1. the dry signal is not as loud as the delayed signal
2. the volume pot is not working(could be the reason for #1)
3. the delayed signal still comes through when bypassed when the boss/tails switch is in boss mode
4. lots of noise
5. the feedback oscilates infinity at about 10 o'clock
I realize that some of these problems can be related, but the best advice comes from experience!
The delays sound great, but I'm trying to troubleshoot those problems. I am using the newest layout on a John Lyons blue board.
Thanks for any help you can offer!
-John
Quote from: ppatchmods on September 21, 2008, 07:30:09 PM
Just finished my echobase, but got a few problems:
1. the dry signal is not as loud as the delayed signal
2. the volume pot is not working(could be the reason for #1)
3. the delayed signal still comes through when bypassed when the boss/tails switch is in boss mode
4. lots of noise
5. the feedback oscilates infinity at about 10 o'clock
I realize that some of these problems can be related, but the best advice comes from experience!
The delays sound great, but I'm trying to troubleshoot those problems. I am using the newest layout on a John Lyons blue board.
Thanks for any help you can offer!
-John
1 and 2 are obviously related, as the "volume" knob is actually a dry/wet mix, not an actual volume control.
3 is usually a miswiring of the tails switch. if you reverse any of the wires, then you essentially keep the delay on in one setting
4 and 5 are likely relayed too. 5 is a known issue from earlier in the thread. if you raise the value of the resistor going to lug 2 of the feedback pot, it will tame the feedback. adjust to taste for at what point you want the feedback to oscillate. the oscillation builds noise pretty quick, so this could be where you are hearing noise too.
Thanks barcode80! I remember reading about the feedback resistor now that you mention it. I'll check those things and see if that does it. Thanks a lot!
-John
At a guess your level and feedback pots are wired wrong. One of the lugs of each of these should be connected to ground so turning the level pot all the way down should mute the delayed signal likewise turning the repeats pot all the way down should give you just one repeat. If they don't do this that's where I'd start looking.
If your pots look like they are wired correctly check that all the grey traces on the layout are connected to ground, there's a couple of jumpers on those traces and if you've missed them that would cause the problems you're having.
Once the level and repeats pots are sorted you might find the other problems go away, if not check the voltages on the 4066 using the info a few pages back to make sure the boss/tails switch is working.
Thanks Slacker! I have found that the volume knob doesn't seem to have any affect. I will check the traces and jumpers tonight.
-John
My echobase is doing some crazy modulation and making tons of noise! The delay signals are louder than the dry and I'm frustrated! I think I'm going to get another pcb made and start over!...it looks good in the case though :icon_biggrin:
-John
Don't chuck it away yet, the layout is known to be good so if yours isn't working then you must have made an mistake of some sort. Starting again isn't going to guarantee success and everyone knows pedals that need a lot of debugging have extra mojo :)
Just in case you've wired it up wrong here's a wiring diagram for the anonymousfacelesscoward's board.
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=36730&g2_serialNumber=1)
Once you're sure the wiring is correct turn all the controls all the way anticlockwise except the delay time, put that somewhere in the middle. That should give you no delay, if you can still hear the delay then check around where the level pot connects for shorts that might be letting the delayed signal bypass the pot. Once you've got no delayed sound turn the delay level up until you can hear the delayed signal, you should get just one repeat. If you get more than one repeat check for shorts around where the repeats pot connects. If you only get one repeat turn the repeats pot up until you get 4 or 5 repeats. These should have no modulation to them, if they do check round the mod depth pot for shorts.
Thanks Slacker! You talked me down from the ledge! :-\ I'll give it a go and see what happens.
Well, it is not 100% Echo Base... but...
I added the LFO section of the Echo Base to my PT-80 and man... AWESOME. What a great addition!
Thanks Ian!
Here's a pic, as you see I made a PCB for the LFO-section:
(http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7315/image009hk1.jpg)
Anyone have any additional soundclips for the Echo Base?
I'd like to add some to my site here. (http://www.mrdwab.com/john/soundclipspage.html)
Clips with the modulation in context would be nice.
Keep em under 1MB please.
Let me know.
thanks!
John
Quote from: Auke Haarsma on September 26, 2008, 02:17:38 PM
Here's a pic, as you see I made a PCB for the LFO-section:
Great! Would you mind to share the layout, as I'm interested in combining the PT-80 with the LFO (and the trail-able-switching also ... but that's another story ;))
Sure, I'll prepare the layout and post it any time soon.
Here is the PCB to use the EchoBase LFO section on a PT-80 delay. I am pretty sure it will work on a Rebote as well, but I have not tried that.
Just the PCB, size is correct if printed at 600 dpi:
(http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/15/pt80modpcb600dpivk5.th.png) (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pt80modpcb600dpivk5.png)(http://img101.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif) (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
And the layout:
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2086/pt80modlayout05fq1.png)
thanks!
How do I wire it up to have an external feedback loop?
Here's a movie of my Echo Base
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYSLb5HcJtk
so i built one and it sounds great. i built another and though the led switches on and off (which i assume means both the mechanical switch and the 4066 chip are functioning) i get no delay signal. I can also tell the LFO is working because i hear the faint ticking in the background which changes as i increase the rate pot. so here are my thoughts on possible causes:
1) fried pt2399 - i don't think so, but maybe
2) fried tl072 - same as above
3) i've increased the feedback resistor to 30k, which i'm wondering if it may be too high to allow feedback. i don't think this is it either, as i have a momentary switch wired in that puts a 10k in parallel with it, thus causing (at least on my working unit) endless oscillation when functioning. this switch isn't functioning on the new unit.
ideas?
do you get any sound at pint 14,15 of the PT2399?
Quote from: Auke Haarsma on October 08, 2008, 08:39:50 AM
do you get any sound at pint 14,15 of the PT2399?
actually, i found it. apparently the voltage regulator was bad and not supplying enough juice to the pt2399. replaced it and now i'm delaying like crazy. :)
Quote from: Auke Haarsma on September 26, 2008, 06:02:54 PM
Here is the PCB to use the EchoBase LFO section on a PT-80 delay.
What IC are you using, and have you tried it on a Rebote yet?
A TL072 will work fine for the IC. It will work on any of the PT2399 based delays.
Cool I'll have to give it a shot!
Hey, I don't this this was discussed yet, but does the bypass switch have any kind of signal going through it that would be degredated if it was put through a long amount of wire? I'm gonna house this into a box to put ontop of my amp, and I was going to put a remote switch down on the floor via a stereo 3.5mm chord. I haven't really studied the circuit, but I see its coming from a 4066, which I think is used for switching. So as I'm writing this I'm guessing the bypass switch is momentary too? Eh I guess I'll go reread the 15 pages :icon_redface:
Quote from: mth5044 on October 08, 2008, 09:09:15 PM
Hey, I don't this this was discussed yet, but does the bypass switch have any kind of signal going through it that would be degredated if it was put through a long amount of wire? I'm gonna house this into a box to put ontop of my amp, and I was going to put a remote switch down on the floor via a stereo 3.5mm chord. I haven't really studied the circuit, but I see its coming from a 4066, which I think is used for switching. So as I'm writing this I'm guessing the bypass switch is momentary too? Eh I guess I'll go reread the 15 pages :icon_redface:
You should be able to run the bypass cable through a pretty long cable without any problems. The switch is latching, not momentary.
hello everyone, after looking through all 15 pages, i decided im definitely building this awesome effect. after looking through im going to build it with a waveshape pot, changing feedback resistor to around 100k, hook up a current limiting resistor and LED to pin 1 of U1 for lfo indicator, and hopefully hook up another pot and switch to switch between short and long delays. does this sound correct, how would i hook up the long/short switch thanks.
Alex S.
Quote from: mth5044 on October 08, 2008, 09:09:15 PM
...and I was going to put a remote switch down on the floor via a stereo 3.5mm chord. I haven't really studied the circuit, but I see its coming from a 4066, which I think is used for switching. So as I'm writing this I'm guessing the bypass switch is momentary too? Eh I guess I'll go reread the 15 pages :icon_redface:
That will work fine, the audio signal doesn't go anywhere near the switch. The bypass stomp controls a transistor switch which then switches the 4066 that turns the delay on and off. The switch is latching.
Quote from: hendrix2489 on October 09, 2008, 11:06:04 AM
...and hopefully hook up another pot and switch to switch between short and long delays. does this sound correct, how would i hook up the long/short switch thanks.
I'd do it like this. Put the second pot in series with the original one, wired the same way. Then use a SPDT switch and connect the middle lug to where the pots join and the outer lugs to the outside of the pots, like this
Pin6----1---Pot-2--Pot--3-- Numbers are switch lugs
That way the will change between the 2 pot values without any break in the connection.
Quote from: slacker on October 09, 2008, 01:43:40 PM
That will work fine, the audio signal doesn't go anywhere near the switch. The bypass stomp controls a transistor switch which then switches the 4066 that turns the delay on and off. The switch is latching.
Ah ok thanks. So it's something similar to the 'wicked switch' on the Tone God's site? Maybe. Eh. Thanks for the info!
Yeah it's the same concept. I only need one inverter for my design so I used a transistor instead of a CMOS chip.
Quote from: slacker on October 09, 2008, 01:43:40 PM
I'd do it like this. Put the second pot in series with the original one, wired the same way. Then use a SPDT switch and connect the middle lug to where the pots join and the outer lugs to the outside of the pots, like this
Pin6----1---Pot-2--Pot--3-- Numbers are switch lugs
That way the will change between the 2 pot values without any break in the connection.
thanks, for the quick reply, cant wait to build it.
Alex S.
re LFO switch discussed earlier in this thread.
An SPDT (or half a DPDT) with Pin 1 of the LFO opamp in the centre, Pin 2 on one outside lug and nothing on the other would be the simplest way wouldn't it? Is there any way an indicator LED could be added using a DPDT or 3PDT? Could be more hassle than worth seeing as the modulation should be pretty obvious.
I'm planning my build and am considering what extras to add.
Cheers.
Took a bit of debugging with the condensed pcb layout, but this is a great sounding delay! Sounds great by itself, but really shines when you dial in the more subtle tone shaping sounds that you would use in a real band context.
Thanks Slacker!
Son of a...
I got the wrong 7805 voltage regulator didnt I?
Here is a pretty awful picture
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg114/mth5044/P1010011.jpg)
It looks like the middle leg is missing? And it doesnt have that loop on the top to attach the heat sink too.
On the top it says 7805BD2T RPU730 G
and this is the page I bought it from on Digi-key http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=MC7805BD2TR4GOSCT-ND
So.. is there a way to save this piece.. like just solder bridge up to that second missing leg or am I going to have to place a whole new order :icon_evil:
That's some sort of surface mount part, it will work though and the pinout is the same as for a normal one.
You could try soldering leads on to the tags or just do your solder bridge idea.
Actually if it's got a metal portion on the back you could solder a wire to that because that is connected to pin 2.
just a quick question, are the orientations of the diodes in this layout correct, because the band on the diodes are not in the square pads located on the pcb.
http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf
(http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf)
thanks, Alex S
The way they a shown on the layout is correct. The band of the 1N4001 goes to 9 volts.
For the 1N4148s the band of one goes to ground and the band of the other goes to lug 2 of the feedback pot. It doesn't matter which one does what.
Hey!
Slacker, great job with this pedal! And a what a fantastic job with the support :) Great to see. I will be building one of these suckers over the weekend.
I just noticed though (good thing too 'cause I was just about to print my PnP) that the last layout you posted with the wiring diagram is different from the PDF file found here: http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf.
Is there a PDF (or at least a jpg or png) of the transfer for that layout? Looks a little tighter than the layout from the aforementioned PDF as well. Smaller the better!
Anyway, thanks again for this fantastic project. I'll be sure to post with my results!
Sean
Thanks for the comments.
Here's the newer layout by anonymousfacelesscoward http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/23693577.html (http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/23693577.html).
I am new to this board, but have built 30-35 pedals and done my own layouts before so I am not a noob or an expert.
I built the Echo Base using anonymousfacelesscoward's layout^^^^^^.
My issue is having only wired stuff for true bypass, I don't think I have this thing wired right. The LED works but am ONLY getting a loud ground him whether in bypass or not bypass. No signal what so ever. Using a Godlyke 9v power supply.
My basic wiring is as follows:
The pots are correct because I check them multiple times after an early mistake. The LED is obviously right, it works.
The DC Jack Ground is going to Input shield. At the input shield I have the LED-, Ground from Board and Output Shield connected.
The DC Jack Positive is going to 9V+ on Board.
The Tips of the Jacks are wired to the indicated places on the board.
And assuming the DPDT footswitch lugs I am using are labeled as: 1 4
2 5
3 6
The switch is wired as LUG 4 to the Bypass solder pad further from the CD4066 (to the BAse of the 2n5089, etc.) and LUG 5 to the solder pad closer to the CD4066 (Pins 5 & 7).
All component values are exact as the layouts/schematic except I used a 2n5087 for the BC560, which seemed to OK/workalike as previous indicate.
Is my wiring even the problem? I made sure there is no joined trace as it is a tight board. All jumpers seem to be in place (no empty solder holes on board).
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Bump for this guy....I'd like to know too. ;D
That sounds right for the wiring, theres a wiring diagram on page 14 of this thread if you want to double check. Your bypass switch wiring is correct and the fact that the LED works means that the 4066 part of the circuit is working.
First thing I'd do is check the orientation of the TL072s, they're upside down compared to the 4066 and PT2399, so pin 1 is bottom right. If you've put them in the wrong way round unfortunately you've probably killed them so they'll need replacing.
Slacker, thanks.
I had the TL072s orientated wrong. Replaced them and the 7805 which was defective and things are delaying now. Still have a little LFO/clock bleed and some settings are a little weird (whistle-type sounds?!), but I think these are problems people had and will check the thread for some help. You may see me posting again, when I get a chance to debug these minor issues some more.
I may wire it for true-bypass, because I don't mind the cutting off of the delay tails.
Sounds good though, outside of the issues.
Good job, slacker.
Would this pedal improve powering it with 12V or higher (without considering the 4066, I would remove it because I don't need tails) instead of 9V? If yes, what would improve?
In theory running it at a higher voltage would give the opamps more headroom. However, in practice I don't think it's very likely that you would overload the opamps at 9 volts, or if you did the signal would already be so dirty that any extra distortion from the opamps wouldn't make any difference.
More importantly the PT2399 only runs at 5 volts so it will distort long before the opamps do.
Thanks Slacker! I wanted to know if, besides the input and output opamps, there would be some improvements on the delayed signal..but the answer is no :D
The PT2399 can only run at 5V? the datasheet I have doesn't tell that..
I'm asking that because I only need one strong (as the signal level) and clear repeat of about 220ms, as "digital" as possible.. just that.. :)
I still haven't build this pedal so please tell me if it can do that..
Hello everybody!!
Finally I was admitted to the forum...
I read and studied all the 16 pages of the thread..
So 2 weeks ago I decided to build the echo bases because I like a lot the idea of tail circuit.
After lots of problems the fx now works well...
I post my build report, maybe some information
I would be happy if I could help someone that have problem to start echo on it's own fx.
19.11.2008 Italy
At the first the fx didn't work at all.
The only sound emitted was a bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz like a "wonderful" short somewhere in the circuit. AARRRGGHH!
After triple check of components and a night past over the pcb I found no errors in connections.
I was sure that the pt2399 was working well as i used to hear behind the bzzzz the echo.
I also tried to change one operational (4558) with other 2 similar.
At the end I discovered that the problem was due to the lfo operational..
I discovered also that the 2 others 4558 that I tried to change was shorted
I was so mad... I was getting literal crazy.
3 operational broken from the start... never happened before... (Hope nevermore)
After replacing the lfo op the sound It's ok.
It has a good sound..
The repeats become a little "harsh" as you increase the speed pot (after 500ms). but It's ok, it's like my others reb2.5.
I like a lot the tail switch tail... It is a wonderful idea (useful to me)
(feedback pot too big, I'll replace with another one like 25k)
The LFO modulation is a strange point. After a while I found a good setting.
I see that the depth pot affect the speed of the repeats of the pt2399.
Maybe as I use a bigger pot than the one in the scheme could it be the cause?! Infact at that position the depth is too deep... and become a strange funny fx that bends the notes played.
Now I'm happy of my new delay. So now I 've 4 delays in my fx chain: rebo1e 2.5 - rebo2e 2.5 - the danelectro reel echo.... and the echo base that I will call "The last Echo" (I like p.floyd sound so now I can become crazy with all those delays :P)
Another good fx after my other builts: Rat, Small clone chorus, 2 ts808, phase90 and tube amp P1-ex.
Bye and thanks at all, I'll be around this forum for long time.
Paolo R
I am still having 2 weird issues:
A. No matter what speed the settings are set at, I only get one "repeat" or "echo" per note. I am certain I don't have a wiring issue with the "Time" pot, which I double checked multiple times.
B. Also, in the last 15% - 20% of the rotation of the "Level" control, the clock noise starts to bleed through.
Any Ideas?
Quote from: prnet on November 19, 2008, 09:22:08 AM
Hello everybody!!
Welcome to the forum :) Glad you like the pedal.
Quote
Maybe as I use a bigger pot than the one in the scheme could it be the cause?! Infact at that position the depth is too deep... and become a strange funny fx that bends the notes played.
How big is the pot you used?
If you used a much bigger one, that would increase the amount of modulation like you said. If you want less modulation using the same pot then make the 240k resistor before the pot bigger.
Quote from: Bucky Weaver on November 19, 2008, 11:08:20 AM
A. No matter what speed the settings are set at, I only get one "repeat" or "echo" per note. I am certain I don't have a wiring issue with the "Time" pot, which I double checked multiple times.
Check the wiring of the feedback pot and the components around there. If you're only getting one repeat that's most likely where the problem is.
Quote
B. Also, in the last 15% - 20% of the rotation of the "Level" control, the clock noise starts to bleed through.
Not sure about this, see if you can get everything else working first. Hopefully then it will be Ok.
Hello, here I posted a pic of my new echo base, with some of his friends ;D
http://www.fennecelectronics.it/smf/index.php?topic=1517.msg39920#msg39920
Hi everybody, After looking at the Echo Base project, I decided to edit it to my taste. I made it true bypass (the tails feature is a very nice idea, but I dont find it necessary for my application), and added a Modulation on/off switch. This is the schematic:
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b305/simonstaal/EchobaseTB.jpg)
Are there mistakes in this schematic? I hope I removed the boss/tails correctly, and implemented the mod on/off in the correct way. Thanks.
Yes you've removed the tails switching correctly.
The method you've used to switch the modulation on and off will work but you might get some strange noises when it switches. Basically, if the switch breaks before it makes there will momentarily be an infinite resistance between pin 6 and ground which will cause the delay to switch to a very long delay time causing a nasty sounding spike in the signal.
A better way to do it is either to have the switch ground the base of the BC560 or make it short out C5 both of these will kill the modulation cleanly. I prefer to short C5.
By the way welcome to the forum :)
Did I need a fixed switch for active bypass, or simple button? SPDT, on/on, not fixed? For schematic on the first page.
For the bypass switch you need a latching SPST switch. Or you can just use half of a SPDT switch, which are probably easier to find.
This pedal is way cool! Thanks, slacker!
For my purposes, I'm replacing the delay level pot with the blend mod that someone very kindly posted earlier in this thread. With the delay level control hardwired for maximum level, the blend control seems to work well enough on it's own, going from totally dry at unity to a good 50/50 mix to a slightly boosted delay.
Something else I came up with for this pedal is an add-on envelope detector for an alternate modulation source. It doesn't play very nicely with the LFO mixed in, but I think it's cool enough on its own to include on a little daughter board and be able to select either LFO or Envelope for the modulation source. Here are some quick clips I made (playing bass... of course!) comparing the LFO to the Envelope detector...
Set 1
LFO modulation source 1 (http://moosapotamus.net/EchoBaseLFOmod1.mp3) - slow speed
Envelope modulation source 1 (http://moosapotamus.net/EchoBaseENVmod1.mp3) - slow attack
Set 2
LFO modulation source 2 (http://moosapotamus.net/EchoBaseLFOmod2.mp3) - fast speed
Envelope modulation source 2 (http://moosapotamus.net/EchoBaseENVmod2.mp3) - fast attack
And for good measure, here's the schematic as it stands for now.
(http://moosapotamus.net/EchoBaseENVmod_sm.gif)
It seems like the Attack control can be set to attack faster than the delay Time. When a short Attack setting is combined with a long delay Time setting, the delay sound seems to get cut off before it gets to the output. Can sound gated and distorted in a very short sputtery kind of way. Was a problem when I was trying to use a 100K pot for the Attack control. But with the 500K pot it seems like it's now possible to find an Attack setting that sounds good at any delay Time setting.
Would be interested in any comments and/or suggestions that folks might have about possible improvements. 8)
~ Charlie
dug a little deeper:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?p=31391466#post31391466
Clari(not)!
Hey moosapotamus, the Envelope Detector Mod is really cool!
I guess I'll have to build another Echo Base, because I'm not able to squeeze another PCB in the enclosure...
But Maybe I just try to make the Stereo/PingPong Version... :icon_rolleyes:
The Clari(not) also sounds very cool. Did someone from this Forum build it?
Very cool Charlie, I might have to try that out. Have you tried hooking the output up to the base of the PNP transistor instead or the top of the modulation depth pot instead of to the delay pot, that might give a better effect.
Hi Ian. Yeah, I tried both of those spots and got no action. Tried some other stuff, too. Like driving a vactrol with a transtistor and attaching the LDR leads to pins 4 & 6 of the PT2399. Got nothing with that either. Basically just tried a bunch of stuff until something started sounding good. Again, hats off to you for creating this circuit and posting it for everyone. For my needs, I simply can't get by with a delay pedal that does not allow the tails to play out after you stomp it off. So this is great! Now I just wish I could mod my stereo memory man with a tails switch. 8)
Thanks
~ Charlie
yeah the clari(not) is my doing ;D
i love the echo base!
its the only delay on my board now!
i added a momentary switch as well as the latching so i can just give it a wack and do dub spaceship stuff.
real fun pedal!
:)
Quote from: doug deeper on December 02, 2008, 08:29:06 AM
yeah the clari(not) is my doing ;D
cool Pedal!
Wanna share the schematics? or maybe tell us how you did it(similar to the echo base?)
If not that's perfectly fine though :)
well, its just an envelope follower controlling the delay time.
add some fuzz a blend control and whatever you'd like and you'll get pretty close!
Ah okay... so what I imagined was actually pretty close ;)
Ian, would it be possible to add a tap tempo switch?
The simple answer is no you can't add tap tempo. It's probably technically possible using a PIC or some other sort of micro controller but as far as I know nobody has done it yet and I certainly don't have the skills to do it, sorry.
I have a couple Echo Base boards left if anyone wants one.
They are $14 total including shipping.
Paypal is good for me...just PM or email me.
John
Hello,
I just wanted to say thanks for this wonderful proyect. I have made mine with a chorus on/off switch, by just sending to ground lug 3 of time pot (Chorus Off).
Congratulations, again for this beautiful effect :icon_cool:
You can watch a demo (loooong demo...) of mine here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGRhp4bn6CI
Bye!
Nice demo, thanks for posting that :)
What is the extra knob for?
That's the waveshape mod... I just named it "Shaper". I forgot to show the sounds that knob gets :icon_redface:
Suddenly i'll be recording another [planned and shorter] demo and i will show more of the capabilities of the "Echo Waves" ;)
Bye.
Quote from: moosapotamus on November 30, 2008, 04:31:54 PM
(http://moosapotamus.net/EchoBaseENVmod_sm.gif)
~ Charlie
Hey Charlie, any more updates on this? Sounds like a great idea. Do you have a layout by chance?
Also.. is it possible to put this into the circuit without doing the blend pot mod? I'd prefer the delay level, but I want to give your Envelope Detector a try! Thanks!
I'm trying to decide on which digital delay to build. I've read all the pages before this pretty well. I skipped a lot of the debug, but I tried to pay attention to the thoery and the schematics. So far, the benefits of all of the pedals I've read about come to this:
Echobase- allows for delay tails to continue after bypass, has a lot of really cool modulation effects and is really variable. All of the modulation is digital.
Rebote 2.5: Simple build, allows for infinite delay, straight forward.
PT-80: uses extensive filtering to make the angular "square" parts of digital signals to become more rounded, providing a more analog sound.
These details do not seem exclusive to me. I'm a little confused about how the rebote's infinite delay can be reset (or stopped), but I haven't heard an argument why the other two can't have it as well. Is it also impossible to alter the digital signal slope of the echobase to make it more "analog"? I know that Slacker's intent was not to make an analog-sounding pedal, but is it possible?
What I want from my delay is much less extensive than the echobase, but I'd like a little more than the others. Also, the time is really limited. I know that these are not meant to be looper pedals, but I think it could have some limited use in that regard. I play bass, and it might be nice to have one note repeat somewhat rhythmically while the notes played over do not change. I think this can be easily achieved by altering the tails just slightly. The input to circuit can be switched off, allowing infinite repeats to continue being heard, but not added to. Another switch, possibly momentary, will reset the chip so that it stops the infinite repeat. In this regard, depending on how many chips can be used together, it seems like this project is not that far from being a looper. I do not necessarily want a DIY looper, but the thought occurred to me while reading.
I think some of the modulation is really cool, but I'd rather make an analog chorus/flanger/phaser setup (for my personal neuroses). I would, however, find the note sculpting (if there's a better verb, let me know) of the PT-80 to be very useful, but do the lengths to be "analog" go too far?
Also, I like the idea of the longer delay times, but I don't think I've read about a completely confirmed use of multiple chips to make that happen. If anyone can show me, that would be cool. I know earlier in this article there was mention of using two chips, but there were some unresolved problems.
I don't think any of these builds are too far out of my comfort zone (I haven't had a pedal yet that didn't need some diagnosing), but I want to make sure I make the right one. It's a pain in the ass when you know what you want but have none of the skills (except soldering) to make it happen.
Any feedback (pun intended) will be helpful. You guys are making some great stuff. Slacker, your echobase is really an impressive unit.
Thanks,
Conrad
Somebody should make a PDF file of this excellent build. I've got no idea how to or I'd give it a whack. The valvecaster PDF was a total life saver and possibly a PDF could help people get a bit more organized for their build.
Just a thought :icon_cool:
Quote from: mth5044 on December 15, 2008, 08:44:23 PM
Somebody should make a PDF file of this excellent build. I've got no idea how to or I'd give it a whack. The valvecaster PDF was a total life saver and possibly a PDF could help people get a bit more organized for their build.
Just a thought :icon_cool:
Agreed!
On that note, if anyone can find which page the Blend mod is on, I'd be very grateful. I'm in the process of building (http://notinteractive.com/stuff/guitar/fx/repeat-offender/etch.jpg) an echo base and can't find the details in this thread..
Found it!!
Blend mod - http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg556933#msg556933
Quote from: Radamus on December 15, 2008, 08:22:56 PM
I'm trying to decide on which digital delay to build. I've read all the pages before this pretty well. I skipped a lot of the debug, but I tried to pay attention to the thoery and the schematics. So far, the benefits of all of the pedals I've read about come to this:
Echobase- allows for delay tails to continue after bypass, has a lot of really cool modulation effects and is really variable. All of the modulation is digital.
Rebote 2.5: Simple build, allows for infinite delay, straight forward.
PT-80: uses extensive filtering to make the angular "square" parts of digital signals to become more rounded, providing a more analog sound.
Thanks,
Conrad
As far as i know the modulation of the Echobase is analog,the repat filtering trick can be implemented in any digital delay in order to make it sound "analog", and the infinite repeats of the rebote it's not really infinite; i´ve built two of them one with a switchable infinite mode, and the other with the infinite repeats resistor stock. The delay is nearly infinite only with longer delay times, with shorter you get self oscillation wich is also cool, but i think you can add a trimpot or full sized pot in series with the infinite repeats resistor in order to adjust infinite repeats with shorter delay times.
Then is there a mod someone can recommend me for (near) infinite repeats on the Echo Base? And from what I understand the modulation has to do with the delay, or am I mistaken? And how would I go about rounding the edges of the digital signal on this pedal, if that's what I wanted? I find this sort of thing really fascinating as I had no idea that a digital delay pedal was even possible for DIY. These projects are really creative.
Thanks for your response, chilecocula.
If You have built the veroboard version you can exchange R17 (20K) with a 100k trimpot. Solder the trimpot to an extra space on the board, connect it to where R17 went and don't forget to cut the traces, so the trimpot doesn't interfere with the rest of the circuit. Then, with the feedback pot set to max, You can dial in the wished for infinite repeats with the trimpot.
If You have used a PCB (with no space for a trimpot), exchange R17 with an ordinary 100k pot (or higher), dial in the infinite repeats again, then measure the resistance of the setting and replace the pot again with a resistor of that value.
done!
Ah yes, I also have a minor problem with this wonderful circuit...
The status LED function is reversed, means it's off when the effect is on and vice versa.
Anybody got an idea what that could be?
Slacker, again muchos gracias for this little wonder.
Quote from: Radamus on December 16, 2008, 05:15:33 AM
Then is there a mod someone can recommend me for (near) infinite repeats on the Echo Base?
The echo base will do near infinite repeats already, no mods are needed. This doesn't sound like the hold mode on something like a Boss DD3 though, the delayed signal loses clarity over time and will eventually become distorted. The Rebote does the same, you can't get infinite clean repeats with a PT2399.
Quote
And from what I understand the modulation has to do with the delay, or am I mistaken?
The modulation signal is analogue, there's no digital chips used to generate it, but the sound you hear is coming from the PT2399 so I suppose you could say it was digital as well.
Quote
And how would I go about rounding the edges of the digital signal on this pedal, if that's what I wanted?
I'm not sure what you mean by this, there's no digital edges to round off, the sound that comes out of the PT2399 is analogue, the chip is only digital internally. If you want to make it more "analogue" sounding compare the values of the components around pins 16,15,14 and 13 of the PT2399 with those of the rebote, that should give you an idea where to start.
Quote from: sovtek50 on December 16, 2008, 06:28:38 AM
The status LED function is reversed, means it's off when the effect is on and vice versa.
Anybody got an idea what that could be?
That's strange, which layout have you used?
Quote from: mth5044 on December 15, 2008, 08:44:23 PM
Somebody should make a PDF file of this excellent build. I've got no idea how to or I'd give it a whack. The valvecaster PDF was a total life saver and possibly a PDF could help people get a bit more organized for their build.
Just a thought :icon_cool:
Cool idea I'll see if I can do something over the Christmas break.
Quote from: mth5044 on December 15, 2008, 08:44:23 PM
Somebody should make a PDF file of this excellent build. I've got no idea how to or I'd give it a whack.
Here is how: Toss MS Office, download openoffice for free (openoffice.org) type it up and just save it as pdf. Btw. openoffice also supports saving/opening MS Office files, so no problems there.
Quote from: slacker on December 16, 2008, 05:55:21 PM
Quote from: Radamus on December 16, 2008, 05:15:33 AM
Then is there a mod someone can recommend me for (near) infinite repeats on the Echo Base?
The echo base will do near infinite repeats already, no mods are needed. This doesn't sound like the hold mode on something like a Boss DD3 though, the delayed signal loses clarity over time and will eventually become distorted. The Rebote does the same, you can't get infinite clean repeats with a PT2399.
Quote
And from what I understand the modulation has to do with the delay, or am I mistaken?
The modulation signal is analogue, there's no digital chips used to generate it, but the sound you hear is coming from the PT2399 so I suppose you could say it was digital as well.
Quote
And how would I go about rounding the edges of the digital signal on this pedal, if that's what I wanted?
I'm not sure what you mean by this, there's no digital edges to round off, the sound that comes out of the PT2399 is analogue, the chip is only digital internally. If you want to make it more "analogue" sounding compare the values of the components around pins 16,15,14 and 13 of the PT2399 with those of the rebote, that should give you an idea where to start.
Thank you for the in-depth reply. I'm still a little confused about the modulation. I probably do not understand how chorus, ect. work well enough to figure this out completely, but from what I can tell, there's no chorus circuit, it's just one method of using the delay to make the chorus sound. I know it's ultimately futile to argue analogue versus digital, but I like the analogue methods because they make more sense to me. If I'm wrong on this, please let me know. I don't mean to sound like I don't think what you've designed is great, because it really is amazing, I just want to make sure I understand it.
As for the analogue sound, I'm confused because it seems that the sampled sound comes out as a semi-square wave. I was also told that the square-ness could be rounded off. I'm curious how that works.
Thanks again for the excellent project.
Conrad
Quote from: Radamus on December 17, 2008, 05:17:46 AM
Thank you for the in-depth reply. I'm still a little confused about the modulation. I probably do not understand how chorus, ect. work well enough to figure this out completely, but from what I can tell, there's no chorus circuit,
The modulation works the same way as in an analogue chorus. If you look at a chorus schematic like this one http://www.hollis.co.uk/john/zombie.jpg (http://www.hollis.co.uk/john/zombie.jpg) the signal goes through the first opamp then splits, some goes through the MN3007 and the second opamp stage and some goes straight through the 10k resistor at the top of the schematic this "dry" signal is then mixed with the delayed sound.
To make the chorus effect the 2 opamps at the bottom of the schematic make an LFO and the CD4046 converts this signal into something that can drive the MN3007. The sound that goes through the MN3007 gets delayed and the delay time changes in time with the LFO speed. The changing delayed sound mixed with the clean sound give the chorus effect. All analogue choruses work basically the same even if they use different components.
The modulation in the Echo Base is exactly the same, if you look at the schematic on the first page of the thread the signal goes through the first opamp (U3A) then splits, some goes straight through the 10k resistor to pin 6 of U3B. The rest of the signal goes through the 4066 switches and the PT2399 to pin 6 of U3B where the delayed sound is mixed with the "dry". If you ignore the 4066 switches and the feedback and level controls that's basically the same as the analogue chorus with the PT2399 replacing the MN3007. U1A and U1B then make an LFO that creates the changing delay time.
Hope that makes sense and don't worry about asking questions it's great that people are still interested in this after over a year :)
Quote
As for the analogue sound, I'm confused because it seems that the sampled sound comes out as a semi-square wave. I was also told that the square-ness could be rounded off. I'm curious how that works.
This is just wrong, sounds like you've been talking to someone who hates digital delays :)
I guess the difference is that the MN3007 is an analog BBD device, and the PT2399 is a digital echo device. I think that's where I was getting confused. So in typical analog choruses, the the chorus is created by an analog (though imperfect) device, whereas this one uses a digital.
As for the partially squared sound, I'm thinking back to the PT 80 pdf document that said something to that effect. The sampler takes a sample at every x interval, and when the sound comes out, it only has those x intervals to work with. So the ordinary "analog" sine wave isn't as round. It has edges where each sample leads into the next. But I understand that those can be rounded to look more like a sine wave again. Does the PT2399 do that internally or is that something that has to be done elsewhere?
And for the infinite delay, how does that work with the delay tails? It would need another switch to stop it from pulsing, wouldn't it?
Quote from: slacker on December 16, 2008, 06:16:47 PM
Quote from: mth5044 on December 15, 2008, 08:44:23 PM
Somebody should make a PDF file of this excellent build. I've got no idea how to or I'd give it a whack. The valvecaster PDF was a total life saver and possibly a PDF could help people get a bit more organized for their build.
Just a thought :icon_cool:
Cool idea I'll see if I can do something over the Christmas break.
I would also appreciate something like this. There's been so many modifications on this board, and also on the stereo delay board, that it would be a lot of work for someone like me to try to figure out where all the pieces are and how they fit together. I'm not sure it's your intent to put all of those together, but that would be really helpful. I guess this project could fill up a several gallon box if you wanted it to. Thanks again for the great work.
what is the "range" of the waveshaper mod? I'd like to add that..but..what kind of additional waveforms could I get with this mod?
just a hint, if it could help... :icon_wink:
i was having trouble with the speed pot, it seem's to do nothing on the sound....after spending lot of time to debug, change pot, verify evething...i found out that the problem was the battery....a battery running at +/- 7.5 volts makes the speed not fonctionnary .... i put a new 9 volt and "voila"...problem sovled, evrything works as normal....
bent
Quote from: Dimitree on December 17, 2008, 05:06:59 PM
what is the "range" of the waveshaper mod? I'd like to add that..but..what kind of additional waveforms could I get with this mod?
The "stock" LFO Waveform is a Triangle. The Waveshape Mod allows you to blend between a triangle and a squarewave.
The squarewave LFO is pretty cool, because it adds kind of pitchshifting effects to the delay signal.
i have a little problem....
there's a little "tic...tic...tic" in the sound that goes faster or slower when i turn the speed pot....
only mod made is the wave pot 25kb....
anyone have a clue?
bent
Quote from: bent on December 21, 2008, 11:56:26 AM
i have a little problem....
there's a little "tic...tic...tic" in the sound that goes faster or slower when i turn the speed pot....
only mod made is the wave pot 25kb....
anyone have a clue?
bent
see earlier in the thread on ways to reduce noise, it's just your LFO ticking. It should in fact change with the speed pot.
Quote from: slacker on December 16, 2008, 05:57:01 PM
Quote from: sovtek50 on December 16, 2008, 06:28:38 AM
The status LED function is reversed, means it's off when the effect is on and vice versa.
Anybody got an idea what that could be?
That's strange, which layout have you used?
I used the vero layout. Lately, the tail/boss switch ain't working either. The unit seems to be working perfectly, except for the switching... hmmm...
I made a new film showing my echo base and some settings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG0SCmy4wRU
Quote from: bent on December 21, 2008, 11:56:26 AM
i have a little problem....
there's a little "tic...tic...tic" in the sound that goes faster or slower when i turn the speed pot....
only mod made is the wave pot 25kb....
anyone have a clue?
bent
I had the same problem, it was more notorious with distorsion after delay, i simply solved it by using Polyester Box caps (bought at RS..) and changing the 100nF capacitor between lugs 11 and 12 of the PT2399 for a 220nF cap.
Hope this can help you, at least my tic is now gone... ;)
BTW, i used NE5532 ICs for LFO U1 and Out.
Hello!
What's the Waveshape mod for?
I did it, but i can't hear major differences with it :D
And what's a Modulation on/off switch for?
maybe next time, before you post a question, you should try to search and read through the thread for an answer...
Only 5 Posts before your question I explained it.
Quote from: returntable on January 01, 2009, 09:36:00 AM
maybe next time, before you post a question, you should try to search and read through the thread for an answer...
Only 5 Posts before your question I explained it.
Sorry...it's a very long topic and i didn't read all carefully :(...is there a problem if i used a 22K linear pot instead of 25K?
It will be better if you use a 50k linear pot, the effect will be more notorious.
Good Luck ;)
Thx Slade...i will try these days!
Quote from: Slade on January 01, 2009, 12:12:24 PM
It will be better if you use a 50k linear pot, the effect will be more notorious.
Good Luck ;)
Thx a lot Slade for this advice...now the effect of the pot it's obviously stronger!
You're welcome ;)
Now post some demos! ;D
Quote from: Slade on December 30, 2008, 06:52:09 PM
Quote from: bent on December 21, 2008, 11:56:26 AM
i have a little problem....
there's a little "tic...tic...tic" in the sound that goes faster or slower when i turn the speed pot....
only mod made is the wave pot 25kb....
anyone have a clue?
bent
I had the same problem, it was more notorious with distorsion after delay, i simply solved it by using Polyester Box caps (bought at RS..) and changing the 100nF capacitor between lugs 11 and 12 of the PT2399 for a 220nF cap.
Hope this can help you, at least my tic is now gone... ;)
BTW, i used NE5532 ICs for LFO U1 and Out.
thank's SLADE, i try it before...
i change between lugs 11 and 12 to 560nF (see earlier post), and between lug 9 and 10 to 220nf, didn't change anything...i try with a mc4558 in both place, and still nothing change...
still have this f**** tic...tic...tic...
i use polyester box caps.....
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
great project, but can't used it....
bent
Quote from: slacker on November 26, 2008, 01:10:08 PM
The method you've used to switch the modulation on and off will work but you might get some strange noises when it switches. Basically, if the switch breaks before it makes there will momentarily be an infinite resistance between pin 6 and ground which will cause the delay to switch to a very long delay time causing a nasty sounding spike in the signal.
A better way to do it is either to have the switch ground the base of the BC560 or make it short out C5 both of these will kill the modulation cleanly. I prefer to short C5.
To short C5, does this mean you would just add a switch between C5 and R6/3? (I'm referring to simons' schematic on this one)
Yeah that's right. One side of the the switch goes to R7/C5 and the other side goes to C5/R6/R3.
Quote from: bent on December 21, 2008, 11:56:26 AM
i have a little problem....
there's a little "tic...tic...tic" in the sound that goes faster or slower when i turn the speed pot....
only mod made is the wave pot 25kb....
anyone have a clue?
bent
Is this ticking all the time, in bypass as well as when the delay is on?
What happens if you remove the wave shape pot?
Quote from: slacker on January 04, 2009, 09:24:24 AM
Quote from: bent on December 21, 2008, 11:56:26 AM
i have a little problem....
there's a little "tic...tic...tic" in the sound that goes faster or slower when i turn the speed pot....
only mod made is the wave pot 25kb....
anyone have a clue?
bent
Is this ticking all the time, in bypass as well as when the delay is on?
What happens if you remove the wave shape pot?
Hi slacker,
got the same problem as mentioned above. In my case it still tics in bypass. But for me it's not that worse, because youn can barely hear until you put a distortion device after the delay., which I never do. Strange but true: If I turn another device in front of it on e.g. an Orange Squeezer the tic is gone? Might something to do with grounding?
Regards
Helge
Quote from: Slade on January 02, 2009, 06:22:33 PM
You're welcome ;)
Now post some demos! ;D
Thx a lot!
I have no microphone, so my clips will sound crappy :D, but i will try as soon as possible.
Quote from: slacker on January 04, 2009, 09:24:24 AM
Quote from: bent on December 21, 2008, 11:56:26 AM
i have a little problem....
there's a little "tic...tic...tic" in the sound that goes faster or slower when i turn the speed pot....
only mod made is the wave pot 25kb....
anyone have a clue?
bent
Is this ticking all the time, in bypass as well as when the delay is on?
What happens if you remove the wave shape pot?
always there, even in by-pass...
even when wave shape pot is remove...
bent
I'm not interrested to get auto-oscillations, so how i can to extend the scale of the feedback pot (to get a more usable length of it)?
if you raise the resistor that leads to it (as mentioned earlier in the thread), you can eliminate oscillations altogether if that's your aim. You have to be careful though because if you raise it too much, it will stop the delay completely. try putting a trimpot in that resistor's place and adjust to get the most useable pot swing.
Thx a lot Barecode80!
Can you tell me which is exactly the resistor involved?
This one:
(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1557/feedbackresistorpl4.jpg)
Increasing this you will have less feedback (auto oscillation).
yep thats the one.
Thx a lot Slade and Barecode80!
I have a question to anyone who knows...
What are the 1N4148 diodes for? What is their function?
Thanks.
They are there to clip the feedback signal when you make the pedal self oscillate, without them it gets much too loud for my liking. With them I can mess about with extreme setting without having to turn the level down.
They might also clip the signal a bit if you run a really loud signal into the delay, this will probably sound better than the PT2399 distorting.
Thanks for your soon answer, slacker, i imagined that but i was not sure.. much clearer now ;)
Was that your idea?
Greetings!
Slacker, thank you for a great project. Which enclosure is pictured on your very first post? And can you provide the dimensions of the perfboard as well?
Hi,
I build the echobase with a pcb from John Lyon. (great pcb although you really need some good eyes :icon_wink:)
It is a very nice echo and the modulation works great. (Slacker thanks for the project)
I have build a PT80 as well and so I can compare both:
I do like the fexibility that the modulation gives but the echobase does not sound as clean as the PT 80.
The PT80 has a very nice analogue like sound that only gets darker in the multiple repeats.
The echobase I build sounds already darker and a bit distorted on the first repeat.
I am using a guitar with humbuckers so the signal is a little hotter than with single coils of course.
Does this have to do with the compander that is in the PT80 design, that might deal better with a hotter signal?
Marc
Hi all
Dumb question but I can't find the transistor substition charts that I used to use. So does anyone know what I could substitute the 2n5089 for, having difficulty finding them in my usual haunts. I'm guessing a 2n2222 will do it, just a general purpose NPN?
And does anyone know where I might find one of those transistor equivalence charts? I'm sure I used to have a couple bookmarked but my google-fu has lost it's mojo.
Cheers,
Ian M
(not that one)
Welcome to the forum, Ian :)
Any general purpose NPN transistor will do, it's just being used as a switch so specs aren't important.
Ow yeah, a big thanks, yet again for this project Ian.
Here are the Echo Bases I've built so far, and I have 2 more coming up. My friends just love them.
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/ValoosjFX/DSC02043.jpg)
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/ValoosjFX/DSC_3137.gif)
(http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/Valoosj/DSC02005.jpg)
(bottom right)
[Image] (yet to be painted ;D)
Hi,
Has anyone tried to modify the echo base schematic to make it work with a pt-2395? I think that the sound quality would be far better compared to the double delay time mod that uses two pt2399´s ?
This circuit looks interesting:
http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs44_ddb.html (http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs44_ddb.html)
Immo
Quote from: Valoosj on January 13, 2009, 02:33:42 PM
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm227/ValoosjFX/DSC_3137.gif)
niice! I've always wanted to use bubble chamber art for something...
what's the difference when putting an effect loop before pin 16 or putting it after pin 14?
I guess you'll get the same results, right? the dry stays dry, the wet is processed by the effect in the loop, even the first repeat, and then every repeat get always more effected.. this is what I want ;D
where is the correct place to achieve this? I guess before pin16
If you do either of those the first repeat will be effected by the loop and every repeat will go through it and get more effected. They will probably sound different though because of where the loop is.
If you put the effects loop before where the 10k and 47k resistor join before pin 16 then the input signal will be processed by what ever is in the loop before it gets to the PT2399 so the first repeat get the effect. Then the feedback signal will get fed through the loop so every repeat will be effected.
The loop will be after the feedback pot so it will control the level going into the effect in the loop.
The loop is before the delay so you'll be hearing effect in the loop after it's gone through the PT2399.
If you put the loop after the 10k resistor from pin 14 but before where the two 100n and the 15n capacitors join then the input signal will go through the PT2399 and then through the loop so the first repeat will get the effect. The volume of the PT2399 is very loud at that point though so some effects might not like it. Then the effected signal from the loop will go through the feedback pot and get mixed with the input signal so all the repeats will be effected.
The feedback pot will be after the loop so it will control the level of the effected signal that gets mixed back into the delay.
The loop is after the delay so you'll hear the delayed sound processed by what ever is in the loop.
I don't know which would be better but it should be easy enough to try either option or even do both.
Quote from: roseblood11 on January 14, 2009, 10:20:13 PM
Has anyone tried to modify the echo base schematic to make it work with a pt-2395? I think that the sound quality would be far better compared to the double delay time mod that uses two pt2399´s ?
I don't think anyone has, it should be possible though.
You could keep the input and output buffers, the switching and the LFO and redesign the rest of the circuit around the PT2395. I don't know what the shortest delay times for the PT2395 are though so you might no be able to get the chorus effects, you could do the modulated delay effects though.
thanks Slacker!
so what place do you recommend? I'm going to place a 1:1 gain effect, like an harmonizer, whammy, etc.. I want the first repeat effected (the dry, and then the second repeat re-effected again, so effected two times, and so on..
If I put it before the join between 10k and 47k on pin 16/15, it should sound as natural as possible, right?
what is happening on the signal with that filter on 16/15, and what with the filter after 14/13?
If I wanted to add a tone control that would effect the repeats only, at what point would I insert it? I am thinking of adding a simple tone knob, maybe using the Stupidly wonderful tone control ( or similiar) to better control the tone range of the repeats, while attempting to preserve the tone of the original signal. Is this even possible? Has anyone done this before? Can anyone suggest a suitable tone control? Any suggestions? Slacker?
sorry for the flurry of questions, and thanks in advance for any guidance,
rogeriniowa
Roger: I've done what you are proposing; the tone stack goes in the same place as the FX loop, as discussed in the posts immediately prior to yours. I used a variation of the SWTC along with a gain recovery stage and internal trimpot to set the output of the gain recovery stage. In testing I found that if you dial out the bass the repeats sound louder and you need less gain recovery, but if you cut the treble the reverse is true. Ideally I would have preferred a dual-gang pot so that the gain recovery could be inversely proportionate to the amount of treble being cut, but my enclosure didn't have room for a dual gang pot.
Thanks for the great ideas, Andrew. I was reading the post about adding the FX loop and thought that the insertion mentioned might make sense, so that is why I asked. Woul you be willing to give any details on
1) your variation on the SWTC?
2) what you did for a gain recovery stage?
I'll bet that there are more than a few of us who are interested in this concept and would love to see the details of how you did it.
thanks,
R
Sure Roger, but I did nothing original.
I used Jack Orman's variation of the SWTC - http://www.muzique.com/lab/swtc.htm
and the gain recovery stage was based on a Trotsky Drive / Electra distortion without the clipping diodes and using an old NEC transistor form a bunch of stuff I picked up in a surplus place in Tokyo. Any simple clean boost will do the job, but my build is supposed to be lofi and the modded electra added to that nicely. My build is still full of bugs which I might look into today, but the EQ / gain recovery portion works fine.
Just make sure you don't boost the signal above unity gain. You'll know it if you do :D
thanks for the detailed tips, I am off to the breadboard!!!
really appreciate it
rogeriniowa
Hi,
- what other op-amps can I use instead of the TL072´s?
I´ve got NE5532AP and OPA2134PA here...
Immo
They should both work fine. I'd use the OPA2134 for the buffers and an NE5532 for the LFO.
I used a TL062 for the LFO as it has less current draw because I had/still have a minor problem with ticing. It helped to calm it down a bit without generating any noticable noise but it's still there. So I would say don't care to much about the OPs as long as they are Dual OPs.
Mine doesn't have any ticking and I spent quite a lot of time making sure it didn't, I wonder if it might be a layout issue, which one did you use?
Hi Ian,
I used this one: http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/ebwiring.jpg.html
Maybe I got a too tight fit, as I put it into a B enclosure.
If I wanted to put this board into a 1590b and didnt need the controls for the modulation section, could I just jumper where the modulation control pots go?or is there a better tactic ? I want to build a 3 knob echo base in a smaller case,leaving off the pots for mod speed and depth....just using the controls for delay level, repeats, and time.
forgive me if this was covered somewhere else in this thread, but my eyes glazed over after reading all 21 pages.
Any suggestions?
If you don't want the modulation at all then on the schematic (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobase.png.html) remove U1 and everything connected to it up to and including the BC560. Then replace the 39k resistor with a 100R resistor and remove the 220R resistor and 47u cap connected to "LFO+"
If you compare the values on the schematic to the layout it should be easy to see which parts to remove, it's basically everything bottom left on the anonymousfacelesscoward layout.
If you've already built it and don't want to remove everything just pull U1 and remove the mod speed and mod depth pots and the BC560, and replace the 39k resistor with a 100R.
slacker
I see exactly what you are saying on the schematic and layout, and thanks again for the quick response, the great tips, and the versatile circuit!
Hi everyone, I've just finished building an Echobase and am stumped by a problem I'm experiencing. Let me preface this by saying I just joined this great community last month, and that this is my first-ever circuit build. Since the first day, I've been eating up all the wonderful information found here and have been so impressed with the generosity of everyone in this forum. A special thanks to Ian for this great project.
When I felt up for the challenge, I read and re-read this entire thread, absorbing the knowledge and noting various issues folks had with their builds. I also practiced my soldering skills by building a passive A/B switch, and a TB Dual Looper, my first two stompboxes. Needless to say, the last few nights have been incredibly frustrating as I have tried to troubleshoot the problem with my build. Any tips and insight would be appreciated.
1.What does it do, not do, and sound like?
With effect on, and all knobs set to minimum, I can hear the dry signal fine, which means there is no problem with the TL072's.
Also, with Time pot at 12o'clock, and everything else at minimum, I hear only the dry signal. This is a good thing.
After turning up the Level, and Time pots (and leaving others at minimum), and a quick guitar strum, I hear a very, very faint repeat of the chord, but I really have to strain to hear any semblance of what I played. Any repeats after that (if I can hear them) are incredibly distorted. In fact, no setting enables me to hear what I consider an actual set of clean, delayed repeats, at least nothing anywhere near Ian's original sound clips. One other way to describe it is that whenever I play a note, I can tell that there IS a delay, and that the Time, Feedback, Depth, and Speed knobs function if I turn them, but I don't hear what I played being repeated or affected in any clear fashion. It's like my note gets thrown down the side of a waterfall and I'm listening and listening, but hear only a faint echo, which quickly gets overcome by noise from all sides. Increasing the Level knob only turns up the noise(and of course, after 2 o'clock, the whole thing melts into self-oscillation like a Roland Space Echo - I'm assuming this is ok, bc it's part of the Echobase appeal to me). All the while, the clean signal is clearly audible throughout this. Also, the bypass switch works, and the tails/Boss switch works too. I have seen others post a similar issue as mine, but I was not able to fix it by checking for shorts around the pot connections.
2.Source of the circuit (URL of schematic or project) = I used John Lyons' PCB, based on anonymousfacelescoward's layout. All jumpers confirmed. No solder bridges that I could detect. It all fits into a 1790NS enclosure.
3.Any modifications to the circuit? NO.
4. Any parts substitutions?
Parts all stock except for:
a) 78L05 instead of 7805
b) 2N5087 instead of BC560
c) TIME POT: 50k lin instead of 47k lin
Note: I looked up each transistor's datasheet and confirmed that I placed the E,B, and C in the correct sockets, remembering that the orientation for 78L05 and 2N5087 are both opposite from the 7805 and BC560, respectively, in the layout.
5.Positive ground to negative ground conversion? NO.
6. Out of circuit battery voltage => USING 1SPOT 9V pedal power supply.
7. Voltage at the circuit board end of the red battery lead = around 9.5
8. Voltage at the circuit board end of the black battery lead = around 0
9. Voltages: Oddly, voltages on the PT2399, the two TL072's, and the 2N5089 all match the voltages provided by Ian. The differences appear solely with the 4066, as you'll see:
U4 - CD4066
--PIN - (Ian's Voltages)
P1 2.88 (4.6)
P2 2.88 (4.6)
P3 .03 (.4)
P4 .02 (.4)
P5 0 (0)
P6 .44 off - 2.88 on (0.45v off 4.5v on)
P7 0 (0)
P8 8.45 (9)
P9 nothing (this pin leads to the LED) (3v on 0.32 off)
P10 2.88 (4.6)
P11 2.88 (4.6)
P12 7.78 on (8.5)
P13 4.92 on (8.5)
P14 9.5
Is this something really obvious that I'm missing? I just don't understand how my readings are almost half of what they are supposed to be.
I know the voltage regulator works, since the other IC's show 5.04v. Is there a chance that the 4066 is malfunctioning? Why would it only read 2.88v if everywhere else on the circuit appears to be getting the proper voltage? Should I change the voltage regulator? Does it have any relevance at all?
I haven't had a chance to systematically troubleshoot with the audio probe (I have a 21-month son and pregnant wife so I can only work on this a couple hours a night) but will do so ASAP. I would also post some pics but am at work and may do so later if it would help.
Thank you anyone who can offer any insight for this frustrated noob. Through the distortion, I can almost hear the glory of the Echobase.
Wow, building this as your first project, that's quite impressive. I hope the frustration of debugging it doesn't put you off building anything else :)
Looks like you've done the right things so far to try and debug so hopefully we can get it to work.
The strange 2.88 volt readings might be caused by your meter, some meters give false low readings when trying to measure voltages where large value resistors are involved. There's an explanation of why here if you're interested (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=67213.0)
If you want to see if this is the case you can remove the CD4066 and measure the voltages of the pads that are giving you 2.88 volts, if they now give you nearer to the correct voltages then it means the CD4066 is bad, if not it's probably just your meter.
Whilst the CD4066 is removed you can also try this to see if it is causing the problem. Get a couple of short pieces of wire and use them to connect pads 1 and 2 together then do the same thing with pads 10 and 11. If you've used a socket just jam the wire in the holes, if not temporarily solder those pads together. This basically hardwires the pedal into the on position, if the problem is just caused by the CD4066 you should now hear it in all it's glory :)
If not let me know and we'll have to try something else.
Thank you, Ian! I'm thrilled to have some concrete steps to take tonight. I'm really hoping it's just the 4066 gone bad.
At this point, I think I'd be okay with having the the pedal 'always on'. :)
Will report back...
So I removed the 4066 from the socket and hardwired Pads 1-2, 10-11, but still had the same sound problem.
Then I measured each socket hole as well as each joint on solder-side and got slightly lower values than before (with exceptions). See below.
-PIN - My original voltages - (Ian's Voltages) - After 4066 removed
P1 2.88 (4.6) 2.02
P2 2.88 (4.6) 2.02
P3 .03 (.4) 0
P4 .02 (.4) 0
P5 0 (0) 0
P6 .44 off - 2.88 on (0.45v off 4.5v on) .85 on
P7 0 (0) 0
P8 8.45 (9) 9.42
P9 0 (3v on 0.32 off) 0 on
P10 2.88 (4.6) 2.02
P11 2.88 (4.6) 2.02
P12 7.78 on (8.5) 7.78
P13 4.92 on (8.5) 8.98
P14 9.5 (9) 9.5
So I put the 4066 back in. Bypass, tails/Boss, LED all work fine.
So clearly it wasn't the 4066 gone bad, which I think means that you're absolutely correct about the DMM bringing down the measurements, but since there is still the identical sound issues, does this mean there is likely a short somewhere? And is it possible that too much solder can be a problem? Is it possible that it's any of the transistors? Over the course of the build I did have to take them out to orient them correctly. Could this have damaged any of them? (Even though they appear to be oriented correctly, based on the pinouts I looked up) Again, when I turn each of the pots, they seem to function as they should. What do you think I should do next? Maybe after you've heard the sound clips below it might be easier to diagnose.
Here are two short sound clips to give a clearer idea of the problem I'm having:
Each clip has 3 takes showing various combinations of Level/Time. 3 guitar stabs per setting.
1st Clip
http://www.box.net/shared/4gfkyktodg (http://www.box.net/shared/4gfkyktodg)
Take 1: Time knob at 12. All else at minimum.
Take 2: Time at 12. Level knob at 9o'clock.
Take 3: Time at 12. Level at 12o'clock. Then turning Level up to 3o'clock.
2nd Clip
http://www.box.net/shared/n3cavh94b0 (http://www.box.net/shared/n3cavh94b0)
Take 1: Level at 12. Time at 12.
Take 2: Level at 12. Time at 2.
Take 3: Level at 12. Time at 3.
I also used my audio probe to try and detect anything else. I traced the audio from the TIP IN, and it was a clean signal all the way to the 4066. It's still clear on Pins 1 and 2. But terribly distorted at 10 and 11. Maybe this is obviously a symptom of the problem, but thought I'd lay it out in case. I wasn't sure how the "SIG D IN/OUT" and "SIG D OUT/IN" on pins 10/11 from the datasheet work. Could this mean there is something in between the 4066 and PT2399 that is wrong? And by the way, probing all the pins on the PT2399 yielded not a single clear signal.
I've also included a pic of my build. I don't expect you to study my soldering, but it's just to give you an idea of how I put everything together, in case there's some glaringly obvious mistake that I made. Note that the colored wires going to the pots are not uniform for all the pots. They are just what I had available, and helped me to keep each pot's lugs connected to the correct point. Also, added a 4.7k resistor to the LED (because my first one burned out).
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3426/3237988979_0952a79fbc_o.jpg)
Thanks Ian (and to anyone else following this).
From the sound clips and everything else it sounds like the CD4066 is working properly. Did you try jumpering the pins with it removed just to make sure.
It sounds like the problem is somewhere around the PT2399 as the sound is clear going into it but not coming out.
Sounds like the PT2399 is doing something because you can hear a delay and the knobs seem to be working.
Out of interest on the clips where is the Feedback pot set?
I would try audio probing around the PT2399 again and see how your results compare to these.
Pin 16. very quiet signal
Pin 15. delay
Pin 14. loud delay with cyclic noise
Pin 13. nothing, or possibly a very quiet signal
Pin 12. delay with hiss
Pin 11. very quiet delay with hiss
Pin 10. very quiet delay with hiss
Pin 9 . delay with cyclic noise and hiss
I would also double check all the resistor values attached to the PT2399 because if any of those are incorrect they could be causing the distortion. If you've got a spare one try swapping the PT2399, someone who was having problems similar to yours had a bad chip.
Your build look pretty neat, looks like there's some big blobs of solder but so long as they aren't touching anything they shouldn't be they are fine.
Yes, I removed the 4066 and jumpered the pins on the socket. Same values as I reported.
The Feedback, Depth and Speed knobs were all kept at minimum in both clips.
Tonight I will check the resistor values and see if I can try swapping out the PT2399. Will also re-probe, referencing your values.
Thanks Ian.
I am VERY happy to report that the circuit is working now! After double-checking the resistor and cap values around the PT2399, I also noticed some shoddy soldering around the socket, where the pads were not completely covered. I re-soldered those spots, and miraculously the effect worked. Funny, whatever I fixed also reversed the feedback knob's connections, so I had to switch those around, which means I had them backwards. After that, everything appears to be working fine. Although I do hear some faint ticking, no matter where the speed and mod knobs were set. It only goes way with guitar volume pot at 0. I will check out other folks' solution to this shortly.
Thank you Ian for the great support. IMO, this effect approaches the sound of my Space Echo, and is the better alternative for live shows.
Glad you got it working, hearing that it sounds good compared to a Space Echo is really nice.
Shame about the ticking, I think I'm going to have to get hold of a PCB and see if I can figure it out. If it stops when you turn the guitar volume down to 0 it sounds similar to a problem someone was having with an easyvibe pedal recently, where the tick is getting into the input.
Could you or anyone else try putting a buffered pedal like a Boss in front of it and see if that stops the ticking?
You could also try removing the 2M2 resistor that goes from the input to ground, as that might stop it.
Hi Ian,
as I already did mentioned somewhere here before, mine does stop ticking with e.g. an engaged orange squeezer in front of it. Will try in a second if a pedal with outbuffer in front of it will solve the problem too. Only got one pedal, which is not build by my own (they're all true bypass).
Regards
Helge
i really hope someone find the ticking... cause so far i search on mine and can't find where it came from....only know that it goes faster or slower when i turn the speed pot...
bent
Mine does that too, so I would say it's for sure that the lfo cricuit around the BC-whatever BJT has something to do with it. Maybe it's the current draw caused by it that bleeds into Vref and therefore is noticable in the signal path? But on the other hand, if this is the reason for the ticking it should also be noticable for say in the vero layout made by slacker himself. Strange.....
It's definitely caused by the LFO signal bleeding somewhere it shouldn't. I don't think it can be affecting vref because that's supplied by the regulator so it should be rock solid, plus if it was that the ticking wouldn't go away when the input is grounded by turning the guitar volume all the way down.
You could try temporarily adding a big cap directly from pin 3 of the LFO opamp to ground to see if that helps but I don't think it will.
The fact that another pedal in front stops it makes me think it's basically the same issue that's being discussed here http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=72395.20 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=72395.20). That's why I thought removing the 2M2 from the input to ground might solve it.
Another possibility might be to try the same bodge as John Hollis did on the easyvibe and put a large cap from pin 7 of the LFO opamp to ground, that should round off the edges of the square waves produced by the LFO which might help.
This morning I confirmed that the ticking went away by placing a Boss pedal in front of the Echo Base. Then I played with the Echo Base by itself and got to enjoy several hours of use, until I reinserted my Boss DS-1 in front, and the echo base effect suddenly turned into endless self-oscillation. The only way to get it to stop is to unplug the DC power supply. Then, when I play a note, the delay quickly self-oscillates and turns into lots of noise.
I didn't get a chance to check voltages on the PT2399 after the unit suddenly started working last night, but I checked tonight, and the trouble spots are on pins 7 and 8, which read over 3V, when they are supposed to be .5v. I'm supposed to get a new chip tomorrow, so I'll see if that's the problem. Meanwhile, will make another pass over my noob soldering joints just in case...
I also wondered whether sharing the 1Spot power supply with the DS-1 may have contributed to this?
today i finally managed to do a mod i wanted to do since a while. since my echo base is True Bypass (i built it without the 4066), i took away the level pot and instead i added a blend/mix pot like in a Deluxe Memory Man.
the whole run like this:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2uhxxdj.png)
the 10k trim on U3B sets properly the output volume of the wet sound.
So after swapping out the PT2399, and hearing the same self-oscillation, it all ended up being a simple fix: I just pushed the chip a little harder to fit in the socket better, and the Echo Base is now working again. I didn't realize a socket can be that finicky. The voltages now read correctly.
I haven't tried any of the tick fixes yet, but when it appeared this now even with a Boss pedal in front, I eliminated it by moving the pcb away from the depth/mod pots so the board wasn't directly on top of them once the back cover was screwed on. Now the tick is only there without the Boss pedal in front, and I will attempt one of Ian's fixes the next chance I get. For now, it doesn't bother me that much since I always have at least one Boss pedal.
Quote from: slacker on January 31, 2009, 04:32:17 PM
Another possibility might be to try the same bodge as John Hollis did on the easyvibe and put a large cap from pin 7 of the LFO opamp to ground, that should round off the edges of the square waves produced by the LFO which might help.
YEAHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_twisted:
IT WORK'S..... :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
NO MORE F**** TIC TIC TIC... I PUT A 2.2 UF TO GROUND....AND IT FINALLY GET RID OF THE TIC-TIC....
THANK'S SLACKER....I JUST FINISH PLAYED FOR 2 HOURS WITH THIS ECHO!!!!! ;D
I REALLY REALLY REALLY LIKE IT :icon_razz: :)
BENT :icon_wink:
^^^
lol someone is happy :icon_mrgreen: :)
Quote from: Gila_Crisis on February 01, 2009, 11:33:48 AM
today i finally managed to do a mod i wanted to do since a while. since my echo base is True Bypass (i built it without the 4066), i took away the level pot and instead i added a blend/mix pot like in a Deluxe Memory Man.
the whole run like this:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2uhxxdj.png)
the 10k trim on U3B sets properly the output volume of the wet sound.
Fantastic, thanks for sharing.
I think I wouldn't put the trimmer but a Level pot, for I find it much necessary (one of the features I like of the Echobase is that you can drive a higher level delayed signal than the original signal).
Greetings.
Quote from: bent on February 04, 2009, 02:33:09 AM
Quote from: slacker on January 31, 2009, 04:32:17 PM
Another possibility might be to try the same bodge as John Hollis did on the easyvibe and put a large cap from pin 7 of the LFO opamp to ground, that should round off the edges of the square waves produced by the LFO which might help.
YEAHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_twisted:
IT WORK'S..... :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
NO MORE F**** TIC TIC TIC... I PUT A 2.2 UF TO GROUND....AND IT FINALLY GET RID OF THE TIC-TIC....
THANK'S SLACKER....I JUST FINISH PLAYED FOR 2 HOURS WITH THIS ECHO!!!!! ;D
I REALLY REALLY REALLY LIKE IT :icon_razz: :)
BENT :icon_wink:
Excellent news, hopefully that will solve it for everyone. I'll add this to the documentation when I get round to doing it.
Quote from: slacker on January 31, 2009, 04:32:17 PM
It's definitely caused by the LFO signal bleeding somewhere it shouldn't. I don't think it can be affecting vref because that's supplied by the regulator so it should be rock solid, plus if it was that the ticking wouldn't go away when the input is grounded by turning the guitar volume all the way down.
You could try temporarily adding a big cap directly from pin 3 of the LFO opamp to ground to see if that helps but I don't think it will.
The fact that another pedal in front stops it makes me think it's basically the same issue that's being discussed here http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=72395.20 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=72395.20). That's why I thought removing the 2M2 from the input to ground might solve it.
Another possibility might be to try the same bodge as John Hollis did on the easyvibe and put a large cap from pin 7 of the LFO opamp to ground, that should round off the edges of the square waves produced by the LFO which might help.
Cool trick for LFO tick
Quote from: bent on February 04, 2009, 02:33:09 AM
Quote from: slacker on January 31, 2009, 04:32:17 PM
Another possibility might be to try the same bodge as John Hollis did on the easyvibe and put a large cap from pin 7 of the LFO opamp to ground, that should round off the edges of the square waves produced by the LFO which might help.
YEAHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :icon_twisted:
IT WORK'S..... :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin: :icon_biggrin:
NO MORE F**** TIC TIC TIC... I PUT A 2.2 UF TO GROUND....AND IT FINALLY GET RID OF THE TIC-TIC....
THANK'S SLACKER....I JUST FINISH PLAYED FOR 2 HOURS WITH THIS ECHO!!!!! ;D
I REALLY REALLY REALLY LIKE IT :icon_razz: :)
BENT :icon_wink:
Dude, I think we have most all likely felt that brilliant moment of truimph when it not only works, but works quite well, Congratulations!
I remember reading this at some point in the 24 pages, but can you use an effects chain in the feedback loop of the PT2399 so that, for example, the fuzz increases with each repetition?
anyone know of a good way to brighten up the repeats just a little?
To get the repeats brighter you can reduce the value of the 15n cap before the feedback pot.
thanks!
Quote from: slacker on February 06, 2009, 11:48:28 AM
To get the repeats brighter you can reduce the value of the 15n cap before the feedback pot.
I had originally posted in this thread looking for tone control concepts that would effect the repeats...But now I wonder if maybe the answer isnt a tone control
pot so much as a
series of caps on a rotary switch to allow differing shades of bright and dark repeats.....the 1P6T mini rotary that Small Bear sells (http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=581) might work well for this application using a selection of caps in the 15nf to 1nf range, a person could choose the best sounding 6 from that range, or start above the 15n range (I dont know, maybe 18nf to 25nf) for some darker sounds as well....I like this rotary switch: it is well made, affordable, and hardly larger than a Zvex style 9mm pot!
I guess you might end up with a "tone control with detents" that effects the repeats across a six position range of brightness.....
Just thinking
R
I guess it could work, but don't really know about the range of values of the "bright cap", maybe slacker could give us a guide about it.
I was thinking about it many times before and I think it's a really good idea to have this "options" for the repeated signal ;)
Greetings!
Hi,
Thanks, Slacker, for this great project.
I've been working on a dual Echo Base design, a little different to CPM's ping-pong.
What I want is two more-or-less separate delays (the delay lines are parallel, not in series like in the ping-pong), that I could use to generate rhythms. I have most of the routing sorted (i.e. buffers, clean path, two delay paths, switching for mono or stereo output, tails or true bypass, grounded delay input when bypassed, etc), but the time functions have me a little stuck.
My first idea was to have a dual gang pot, so that both delays could be adjusted to the same delay time, and then a "fine" pot would change delay 2 by a bit.
Of course, I realised that this is not what I need.
I need a delay time for delay 1 (resistance "R" at the VCO lug (6) of the PT2399), and then the same resistance value is then divided for the delay time of delay 2 (i.e. R/2, R/3, R/4, R/6).
I'm assuming that smaller values for R give shorter delays.
I've hit a brick wall w.r.t. my knowledge and experience. Does anyone have any suggestions?
(I'll post a diagram of where I'm up to once I have my horrible scribblings converted to a nice circuit diagram).
Thanks in advance,
Christopher
Quote from: Slade on February 06, 2009, 11:14:00 PM
I guess it could work, but don't really know about the range of values of the "bright cap", maybe slacker could give us a guide about it.
I was thinking about it many times before and I think it's a really good idea to have this "options" for the repeated signal ;)
Greetings!
I dont
really know about the ranges either, I guess I would need to breadboard them them to see starting with the stock 15n(?) and moving up and down from there...with that switch I mentioned I figure I may as well try to utilize all 6 throws, not too sure if all settings would be usable.. let alone musical. I plan to just run jumpers from the 15n cap spot on the PCB to a small breadboard and audition some differing values of caps. Who knows what might come of it!
just thinking
R
Quote from: rogerinIowa on February 07, 2009, 01:25:49 PM
Quote from: Slade on February 06, 2009, 11:14:00 PM
I guess it could work, but don't really know about the range of values of the "bright cap", maybe slacker could give us a guide about it.
I was thinking about it many times before and I think it's a really good idea to have this "options" for the repeated signal ;)
Greetings!
I dont really know about the ranges either, I guess I would need to breadboard them them to see starting with the stock 15n(?) and moving up and down from there...with that switch I mentioned I figure I may as well try to utilize all 6 throws, not too sure if all settings would be usable.. let alone musical. I plan to just run jumpers from the 15n cap spot on the PCB to a small breadboard and audition some differing values of caps. Who knows what might come of it!
just thinking
R
I think that cap is acting just a high pass filter to the delayed signals, so it would be easy to find several usable values for this.
How much current does this unit draw? I'm going to be building this and a power supply, and I want to make sure I order the right transformer. Thanks.
Quote from: FunkyGibbon on February 07, 2009, 09:10:53 AM
Hi,
Thanks, Slacker, for this great project.
I've been working on a dual Echo Base design, a little different to CPM's ping-pong.
What I want is two more-or-less separate delays (the delay lines are parallel, not in series like in the ping-pong), that I could use to generate rhythms. I have most of the routing sorted (i.e. buffers, clean path, two delay paths, switching for mono or stereo output, tails or true bypass, grounded delay input when bypassed, etc), but the time functions have me a little stuck.
My first idea was to have a dual gang pot, so that both delays could be adjusted to the same delay time, and then a "fine" pot would change delay 2 by a bit.
Of course, I realised that this is not what I need.
I need a delay time for delay 1 (resistance "R" at the VCO lug (6) of the PT2399), and then the same resistance value is then divided for the delay time of delay 2 (i.e. R/2, R/3, R/4, R/6).
I'm assuming that smaller values for R give shorter delays.
I've hit a brick wall w.r.t. my knowledge and experience. Does anyone have any suggestions?
(I'll post a diagram of where I'm up to once I have my horrible scribblings converted to a nice circuit diagram).
Thanks in advance,
Christopher
Perhaps one way to tackle this might be to slave the second delay chip from the first one's clock out, and use some kind of frequency multiplier before it goes to the second delay. I'm trying to read about this now, but does anyone already know how this is done?
Thanks,
Christopher
Quote from: Slade on February 06, 2009, 11:14:00 PM
I guess it could work, but don't really know about the range of values of the "bright cap", maybe slacker could give us a guide about it.
If you just want to brighten it a bit I'd try 10n, the problem is if you go too small it starts getting noisy on longer repeats. One thing I tried was to replace the 15n with a 100n in series with a 47k pot. This gave a reasonable tone control that goes from a bit brighter to much more filtered.
Quote from: Radamus on February 07, 2009, 08:45:43 PM
How much current does this unit draw?
Mine draws about 25ma.
Quote from: slacker on February 08, 2009, 05:09:38 AM
Quote from: Slade on February 06, 2009, 11:14:00 PM
I guess it could work, but don't really know about the range of values of the "bright cap", maybe slacker could give us a guide about it.
If you just want to brighten it a bit I'd try 10n, the problem is if you go too small it starts getting noisy on longer repeats. One thing I tried was to replace the 15n with a 100n in series with a 47k pot. This gave a reasonable tone control that goes from a bit brighter to much more filtered.
Thanks, slacker, I like that, I'll give it a try.
Does anybody know the metric dimensions for the second, smaller layout pcb by anonymousfacelesscoward?
Much appreciated.
Hey Slacker, I added a passive send/return loop just before the filter on pin 16/15, so before the join of 10k and 47k..
Results: every repeat gets effected always more (this is what I want), but soon it get to feedback and oscillation (and the volume level is high).. I putted on the loop a whammy, then another delay..but it always oscillate.. Now I should try to put the loop after the 10k on pin 14, so before the splitting to out and to feedback.. You said that in this place the level is very high, so I'm not sure that there it would work well.. I want to send to the effect loop a "guitar" signal, if you know what I mean (sorry for my bad english)..
or maybe the problem is that this loop is passive?
Dimetree: I had the same problem, and I was using a JFET buffer on the send and another on the return. I ended up putting the loop after pin 14 and it worked well. I never check the level without the buffer, but if it is high the buffer is taking care of it without adding any clipping.
wow thanks for the info!
so you mean right after the pin 14, or after the 10k resistor?
I think that would be the perfect place, because the output signal is taken there, so why not take a part of this signal, put an effect on it and then bring it back to delay :D
Inserted at the junction of the 10k and the three caps, as slacker described in an earlier post.
With phaser, chorus or envelope filter is sounds great but with distortion effects it still howls a bit.
When I get home from work I'll write up the details of the EQ mod I did. I messed around with various tone and gain recovery circuits but the end result is quite useful without much loss in repeats or additional noise.
repeat clipping - my echo base tends to clip with a humbucker guitar, even though the pickups are only ~8k. Can anyone suggest mods to raise the headroom? If it's likely to fix it, I'm willing to add a 9V regulator and run the opamps off a higher voltage. Any suggestions are very welcome :)
So I successfully eliminated the ticking by placing a 4.7 uF cap from Pin 7 of the LFO op amp to ground. (That was the only cap I had). Thanks for that tip, Ian.
Quote from: andrew_k on February 08, 2009, 05:52:05 PM
repeat clipping - my echo base tends to clip with a humbucker guitar, even though the pickups are only ~8k. Can anyone suggest mods to raise the headroom? If it's likely to fix it, I'm willing to add a 9V regulator and run the opamps off a higher voltage. Any suggestions are very welcome :)
andrew_k: I was going to post the exact same problem. I just noticed that there is clipping/distortion on the very first repeat when playing through my Ibanez PF200 (Super 70's humbuckers pickups). The only way I could minimize/eliminate the clipping is by turning down the guitar volume quite low. It's not a problem playing through the single-coils on my Strat. I too hope there is a mod that can address this.
Quote from: andrew_k on February 08, 2009, 05:52:05 PM
repeat clipping - my echo base tends to clip with a humbucker guitar, even though the pickups are only ~8k. Can anyone suggest mods to raise the headroom?
I take it the dry sound is fine, which means the problem isn't with the opamp input and output buffers.
A couple of people have mentioned problems with humbuckers, unfortunately none of my guitars had hot pickups when I built it so it wasn't ever a problem for me.
I can think of a couple of things that could be causing it.
1. If your signal is hot enough it could be causing the diodes in the feedback loop to clip, especially at higher feedback levels. Try removing the diodes connected to the feedback pot and see if that solves it. If it does then either leave them out completely, or try replacing them with 2 diodes in series each way, or even LEDs. The only downside to doing this is that the self oscillation will be louder, which may or may not be a problem :icon_twisted:
2. The opamp stages in the PT2399 might have too much gain. You can reduce this by reducing the size of the 47k resistors attached to pins 14 and 15. Try temporarily putting another 47k in parallel with one or both of them and see if that solves the problem. If it does then replace them with 20k - 30k resistors, you might find the tone of the delay changes a bit doing this, but if it solve the clipping problem, I'll figure out how to change the caps in those stages to get the tone the same.
It might also reduce the volume too much for you, but you can probably get that back by decreasing the size of the 10k that follows the level pot.
Thanks Ian :)
The clipping diodes idea came to me last night but I didn't have a chance to test it. When I first built the E.B. I tried some Ge diodes and of course the result was heavy clipping... all the time! Of course if I switch to LEDs I'm going to have to mount on so it's visible from the top of the pedal ;D
I'll try your suggestions tonight and report back.
I also have delayed signal bleeding through when bypassed. Quite a bit actually, enough to make it unusable at gigging volumes. BUt one thing at a time, I'll focus on the clipping first.
Thanks again.
What type of stomp switch is used in this circuit?
I have one built up...just need to go pick up the switch.
Thanks
Quote from: slacker on February 08, 2009, 05:09:38 AM
Quote from: Radamus on February 07, 2009, 08:45:43 PM
How much current does this unit draw?
Mine draws about 25ma.
Thanks.
Quote from: Dimitree on February 08, 2009, 03:13:27 PM
Hey Slacker, I added a passive send/return loop just before the filter on pin 16/15, so before the join of 10k and 47k..
Results: every repeat gets effected always more (this is what I want), but soon it get to feedback and oscillation (and the volume level is high).. I putted on the loop a whammy, then another delay..but it always oscillate.. Now I should try to put the loop after the 10k on pin 14, so before the splitting to out and to feedback.. You said that in this place the level is very high, so I'm not sure that there it would work well.. I want to send to the effect loop a "guitar" signal, if you know what I mean (sorry for my bad english)..
or maybe the problem is that this loop is passive?
When you get that figured out, I would really like to see a schem for the mod. I think having that option would be really cool, like running it through an envelope filter, so every delay becomes more focused at the low end, etc. It's like one of those DJ effects.
Quote from: bayonetblue on February 09, 2009, 04:10:47 PM
What type of stomp switch is used in this circuit?
I have one built up...just need to go pick up the switch.
Thanks
I used a DPDT stomp switch (just one side of it).
REPEAT CLIPPING If your echo base build has distorted repeats (but clean bypassed signal) remove the clipping diodes next to the feedback pot.
I love it when the simplest solution is the one that works! ;D
Quote from: andrew_k on February 10, 2009, 06:26:43 AM
REPEAT CLIPPING If your echo base build has distorted repeats (but clean bypassed signal) remove the clipping diodes next to the feedback pot.
I love it when the simplest solution is the one that works! ;D
Great. Will try this tonight. By the way, do we need to remove both diodes? What happens if you remove just one?
And don't the diodes prevent the feedback from getting too loud (when knob is turned CW all the way)?
Does anybody know the metric dimensions for either of the Echo Base pcbs by anonymousfacelesscoward?
Much appreciated.
Quote from: bayonetblue on February 09, 2009, 04:10:47 PM
What type of stomp switch is used in this circuit?
It only needs a SPST, but you can use SPDT or DPDT or even a 3PDT foot switch, and just use 1 pole and 1 throw of them.
Quote from: andrew_k on February 10, 2009, 06:26:43 AM
REPEAT CLIPPING If your echo base build has distorted repeats (but clean bypassed signal) remove the clipping diodes next to the feedback pot.
I love it when the simplest solution is the one that works! ;D
Cool :)
With the bleed through does it stop if you turn the level all the way down? If it does then it might be worth trying a different CD4066 to see if there's a problem with yours.
just drop by to say thank you!
I was just about to buy a used DD-3 but then i found this thread.
cuz this was my 1st DIY.. it took me a month to build it (on and off). But I'm glad I did it. Way more cheaper & way more satisfied than DD-3.
here's the pic http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36392.msg602428#msg602428
definitely gonna try the "repeat clipping" mod.
Quote from: slacker on February 10, 2009, 01:14:54 PM
With the bleed through does it stop if you turn the level all the way down? If it does then it might be worth trying a different CD4066 to see if there's a problem with yours.
It only happened when I was using another effect in front of it; in this case a Subdecay Prometheus. I can't make it happen when it's just guitar > echobase. I don't think I have any more CD4066 on hand but I will try the level control test after work and report back.
Oh and Ian, thank you so much for the all your work supporting this effect. Designing and releasing it is one thing, but 24 pages of helping people build them is another thing entirely. :)
Quote from: slacker on February 09, 2009, 12:46:37 PM
I take it the dry sound is fine, which means the problem isn't with the opamp input and output buffers.
A couple of people have mentioned problems with humbuckers, unfortunately none of my guitars had hot pickups when I built it so it wasn't ever a problem for me.
I can think of a couple of things that could be causing it.
1. If your signal is hot enough it could be causing the diodes in the feedback loop to clip, especially at higher feedback levels. Try removing the diodes connected to the feedback pot and see if that solves it. If it does then either leave them out completely, or try replacing them with 2 diodes in series each way, or even LEDs. The only downside to doing this is that the self oscillation will be louder, which may or may not be a problem :icon_twisted:
2. The opamp stages in the PT2399 might have too much gain. You can reduce this by reducing the size of the 47k resistors attached to pins 14 and 15. Try temporarily putting another 47k in parallel with one or both of them and see if that solves the problem. If it does then replace them with 20k - 30k resistors, you might find the tone of the delay changes a bit doing this, but if it solve the clipping problem, I'll figure out how to change the caps in those stages to get the tone the same.
It might also reduce the volume too much for you, but you can probably get that back by decreasing the size of the 10k that follows the level pot.
Unfortunately, removing the diodes didn't eliminate the distortion for me.
Is there a way to try #2 above without having to dismantle my wiring (to turn over the pcb), and without having to actually remove the existing resistors?
Quote from: andrew_k on February 10, 2009, 05:24:49 PM
Oh and Ian, thank you so much for the all your work supporting this effect. Designing and releasing it is one thing, but 24 pages of helping people build them is another thing entirely. :)
Thanks Andrew, appreciate it.
I figure people have spent a fair amount of time, money and effort building it, so the least I can do is help them out with a bit of debugging.
Quote from: fhsueh on February 11, 2009, 01:03:13 AM
Is there a way to try #2 above without having to dismantle my wiring (to turn over the pcb), and without having to actually remove the existing resistors?
If you can get to the solder pads or just the exposed leads to the resistors, you should be able to tack another resistor in parallel to them. You could probably just wedge another resistor in place or even hold a resistor with the leads touching the right places just to test it.
YEAH! I fixed the distorting problem to a very acceptable threshold by adding a 47k each in parallel with the two 47k's off of Pins 14/15 of the PT2399. This lowered the overall effect level as Ian predicted, and so I put a 4.7k in parallel with the 10k after the Level pot, and this did the trick (it was the only other acceptable value I had available). Now I have to try Very hard to make it distort. Thanks again, Ian for all the support. I'm psyched to put this pedal into action finally.
I started building this today, hopefully there won't be too many hiccups along the way!
One question though: I want to add an LED that will flash with the delay time... is there a reasonably simple way of doing this?
Quote from: npx on February 17, 2009, 11:00:44 AM
I started building this today, hopefully there won't be too many hiccups along the way!
One question though: I want to add an LED that will flash with the delay time... is there a reasonably simple way of doing this?
search the thread. it's in there.
Quote from: npx on February 17, 2009, 11:00:44 AM
I started building this today, hopefully there won't be too many hiccups along the way!
One question though: I want to add an LED that will flash with the delay time... is there a reasonably simple way of doing this?
That depends on your definition of
reasonably simple(http://notinteractive.com/stuff/guitar/fx/delay-tempo.gif)
Ahh cool, thanks... I did go through all 24 pages of this thread before I asked that, I must have missed it!
I don't even know if it was posted in this thread. I had it filed away on my computer so I just uploaded it when you asked for it. I didn't design the layout and have never tested it. It was marked as verified in the thread I saved it from.
Yeah, I don't remember seeing it. Looks interesting, but a little more trouble than it's worth... especially since I already have a 2nd pcb for the short/long time mod. I'll keep that pic for a rainy day though!
Hello sort of new to the forum.. I really want to build one of these but want to make it true bypass.... can anybody post a vero layout with the 4066 and associated parts removed.... I've built several pedals but I know nothing of theory of electricity just really good at following directions. Any help would be appreciated. Thank You
Welcome to the forum :)
The easy way to make it true bypass is just build it stock on my vero layout or the PCB and just leave out the tails switch, the footswitch and the LED, that makes it "always on". Then just wire up your true bypass switch using whatever method you like. That way if you decide to go over to the dark side and experience the joy that is delay tails you can ;D
If I get time I'll butcher the vero layout to remove the switching.
Thanks Slacker :) I can't wait to build this... and would love to see a butchered layout... my order of pt2399's probably will not come for another week ;)
Hello!. I built my echobase but i have a really really bad backgroud noise and i wonder if i fried the 2399, after that i tried the ic in a rebote delay and have the same horrible noise (like a cloud of white noise that not change if i move the pots). I have put 2 wrong value components: 10k instead of 10M in the 4066 and 1n instead of 1uf in the lfo. I measured all the voltages and are close to the posted voltages ???. Any help will be appreciated.
Pd: I tried a ht8970 delay ic and worked well, but the repeats dont sound good :icon_cry:
sounds like a fried chip. although i'm surprised your circuit switching works with the resistor you used on the 4066, those two part errors shouldn't make the unit not function properly. i've gotten that white noise from a fried 2399 before.
Ok :'(,thanks Barcode80. Time to order another PT2399...
I wired up the pots on my echo base build (afc layout) today and I'm in the process of debugging.
At the moment I get no delays, but the guitar comes through fine... however, if I flick the tails switch, I hear the delay tails and all pots respond to them. Can anybody point me in the direction of what I might have done wrong?
UPDATE: Here are some of the voltages I'm getting... the ones that Slacker posted are included for reference, mine are in brackets.
The PT2399 seems fine, but the 4066 is weak on most pins. Pin 2 of The first TL072 (U3) is half what it should be.
The other TL072 (LFO) has a much higher pin 4 reading and the pins that are supposed to fluctuate don't do so.
The only place that connecting or disconnecting the bypass seems to make any difference is at the 5089 – the base changes voltage but the collector doesn't.
PT2399
1. 5v (5.05v)
2. 2.5v (2.52v)
3. 0 (0)
4. 0 (0)
5. 2.89v (2.69v)
6. 2.5v (2.52v)
7. 0.5v (0.54v)
8. 0.5 v (0.63v)
9 - 16 all 2.5v (All 2.52v)
4066
1. 4.6v (2.91v)
2. 4.6v (2.91v)
3. 0.4v (0)
4. 0.4v (0)
5. 0 (0)
6. 0.45v off 4.5v on (0.08v) No difference bypass off/on
7. 0 (0)
8. 9v (2.05v)
9. 3v on 0.32 off (0) No difference bypass off/on
10. 4.6v (2.05v)
11. 4.6v (2.05v)
12. 8.5 on (1.14v)
13. 8.5 on (6.77v)
14. 9 (8.25)
TL072 (U3)
1. 5v (5.05v)
2. 5v (2.43v) ***
3. 5v (5.05v)
4. 0 (0v)
5. 5v (5.05v)
6. 5v (5.05v)
7. 5v (5.05v)
8. 9v (8.38v)
TL072 U1 (LFO)
1. changes (7.45v constant)
2. 5v (5.1v)
3. 5v (5.05v)
4. 0.8v (5.65v)***
5. changes (5.1v constant)
6. 5v (5.05v)
7. changes (7.48v constant)
8. 8v (8.07v)
5089
E. 0 (0v)
B. 0.63v off 0 on (0.74v off 0v on)
C. 0.89v off 8.5v on (0.79v off 0.79v on)***
Any help is much appreciated!
The first thing you need to sort out is why the 2N5089 isn't working, if the the collector stays low then the effect is always bypassed, that's why you can't hear any delay. Make sure the transistor is the correct way round, on my vero layout the collector is at the bottom. After that check for shorts or wrongly placed components or component values.
Same things apply to your funny pin 4 voltage on the LFO opamp, it looks like it's shorted to one of the other pins, also check the value of the 220R resistor to make sure it's correct and that it's connected to ground. Hopefully once that's fixed the LFO will work.
Hope that helps :)
Quote from: championdjk on February 21, 2009, 12:32:18 PM
Thanks Slacker :) I can't wait to build this... and would love to see a butchered layout...
Here you are :)
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasebutchered.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasebutchered.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1)
I couldn't be bothered corrected the component numbering, but it should be easy enough to figure out.
Quote from: slacker on March 01, 2009, 06:47:57 AM
The first thing you need to sort out is why the 2N5089 isn't working, if the the collector stays low then the effect is always bypassed, that's why you can't hear any delay. Make sure the transistor is the correct way round, on my vero layout the collector is at the bottom. After that check for shorts or wrongly placed components or component values.
Same things apply to your funny pin 4 voltage on the LFO opamp, it looks like it's shorted to one of the other pins, also check the value of the 220R resistor to make sure it's correct and that it's connected to ground. Hopefully once that's fixed the LFO will work.
Hope that helps :)
Thanks for the help, Slacker! I pulled out the 2N5089 and the delays started working, even without it. I've socketed it now and it's working. Bypass works as it should.
I'm getting good voltage on pin 4 of the LFO opamp now which is a start, but the other pin voltages that are supposed to change still don't. The Modulation Depth pot seems to just act like a second Delay Time pot. I can't see any obvious mistakes. I'll have another hunt through this epic thread for answered posts about lfo problems.
Cheers!
Cool, glad it's almost working. The LFO doesn't like a weak battery so try a fresh one or use a 9 volt power supply and see if that fixes it.
Battery is measuring 8.2v. No difference with a power supply. I'll poke around the lfo section some more...
Quote from: slacker on March 01, 2009, 06:49:49 AM
Quote from: championdjk on February 21, 2009, 12:32:18 PM
Thanks Slacker :) I can't wait to build this... and would love to see a butchered layout...
Here you are :)
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasebutchered.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasebutchered.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1)
I couldn't be bothered corrected the component numbering, but it should be easy enough to figure out.
Thanks Slacker!!!! You are the best!!!
I finally got the LFO working... Woohoo! There was a short UNDER the lfo IC socket. Lots of crazy sounds hiding in that pedal!
I've promptly broken it again however, attempting to add the extra time mod. :) Hehehe, back to the troubleshooting!
Got my PT2399's from Futurlec today :) Can't wait ot build this!
Does anyone have the dimensions for the tiny layout? or even better the DPI of the image so I can drop it into a photoshop document?
I'll crack mine open and measure the PCB for you tonight.
hmm, any other suggestions about brighter repeats? i lowered the cap going to the feedback pot down to a .068, but that introduced a lot of noise. Also, my pedal has developed a good bit of white noise in the background, anyone had that?
Quote from: andrew_k on March 03, 2009, 05:28:36 PM
I'll crack mine open and measure the PCB for you tonight.
That'd be great! Cheers! 8)
I just finished perf'ing up a Rebote 2.5. My plan is to put this in a box with an Echo Base to create the ultimate delay box. I am just going to give each 1/4" in and out jacks so I can patch them together in either order.
Anybody ever try running one delay circuit through another like that? Is there anything I need to watch out for?
Thanks!
Quote from: doc_drop on March 05, 2009, 04:00:38 PM
Anybody ever try running one delay circuit through another like that? Is there anything I need to watch out for?
Ummmm... chaos?
Seriously though, I used to do this. It's great for some awesome-crazy noise, but I found it coolest when the first is set really fast like a slap-back, and the other is set slow. You can get this nice, morse-code type texture; di-di-dit....... di-di-dit........ di-di-dit.........
Know what I mean?
Oh yeah Mike, I know what you mean. That is exactly the kind of madness I am curious about...
I'm really a synth guy, so the more chaos the better. Depending on the type of chaos. I am looking forward to seeing what I can squeeze out of those guys!
here is a good link for you,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGGtgL91GG4
he is a synth person also. you might want to make yours switch the same as his.
Cool "New P."
I will check out the video at home tonight. Thanks for the link!
Quote from: kierc on March 04, 2009, 12:13:54 PM
Quote from: andrew_k on March 03, 2009, 05:28:36 PM
I'll crack mine open and measure the PCB for you tonight.
That'd be great! Cheers! 8)
sh*t, forgot all about this, very sorry! I've written myself a note to do it when I get home. :icon_redface:
That two in one delay almost sounds like a multihead delay.
Or a multi-tap delay.
I took a look at the box I want to put these guys in, and I don't think they will fit. Besides I am kind of bored with the PT2399... So, the new plan is to put a Noisy Cricket in the box, and make a practice amp with a psuedo reverb/delay. I'll be perfing it up tomorrow.
Does anybody know why on the Beavis site, the schematic has different cap values than the breadboard diagram?
I'm in the process of creating my own pcb for the EchoBase. Since I want to use 9mm alps pots and my supplier only has 10k or 100k pots... I need to change the LFO.
My guess is that the LFO is scalable. But, could someone point me in the direction on how to arrange the values if I use an 100k pot for the LFO section?
Much appreciated!
So,increase the cap in integrator of LFO to 10 uF and decrease the resistor 27k to 2k.
Ah thanks for the pointers. I'll give it a shot in my testrig!
Auke, just buy from Banzai... They have everything except for 2K, which is not used in this pedal.
yeah, I may have to do that if scaling the LFO does not work out. However, I do not like banzai, so I prefer to use the pots I have at hand.
Making the changes D.O.O.H.H. suggested will work fine. Technically the cap needs to be non-polar but instead you can use two normal 10uF electrolytic caps, connect the negative ends to the opamp pins and connect the positive ends together, that makes a non-polar cap.
It'll probably work fine with just a normal 10uF electro though.
Just wanted to say I've got the tiny layout the right size now!
Printed it at 200.25 DPI to get the right size, as with all diylc traces :)
anybody have any ideas about what i posted earlier? about how to increase highs on the repeats without changing that cap near the feedback pot? when i lowered it down it caused quite a bit of distortion and I was wondering where in the circuit a different change could be made cap wise or maybe even a good place to install a high pass filter...
I've also been caught by the Echo Base virus!
I designed my own pcb, which is currently being tested. Added a tempo-led mod (by André) which works nicely (makes use of a PIC).
I'd like to mention (repeat) a couple of things which I solved with the help of this thread, which I think could be common issues:
LFO ticking
This can easily be solved by putting a 2.2uF elco from pin 7 of the LFO IC (U1b on Slackers schem) to ground.
Distortion on repeats, especially with hot pickups/humbuckers
Just leave the two diodes in the feedbackpath out. Did the trick for me.
I tried with two yellow LED's, but they didn't do anything. The LED's are rated to conduct at 2.1V, the diodes I used (1n914) at 1V. Something in between would be nice (~1.5V).
Feedback pot causes too loud feedback too soon / oscilliation
There is a resistor to tweak here. Focus on the 20k resistor running from the middle lug of the feedbackpot. Raise this value to tame the feedback pot. I swapped in a pot and dialed my 'perfect' value. Turned out to be 135k. No resistor with that value in my stash ofcourse. 120k would still cause oscilliation before reaching the end of the feedbackpot, so I put in 150k. Does the trick. I'd would probably be a good idea to replace the 20k resistor with a trimpot (say 150k or 250k).
There are plenty of great layouts posted already, which are probably easier/better than mine. But if there is interest, I'll gladly share mine once I finish verifying it.
i'd like to see yours posted. you never know, someone may have an easier time trimming a board to fit with a different layout.
I'll upload the layouts. In my multi-fx thread I posted a couple of pics already. Just a repost here:
(http://xs537.xs.to/xs537/09123/p1010265887.jpg)
(http://xs537.xs.to/xs537/09123/p1010276615.jpg)
I'll upload two version. The one above (with boardmounted pots and footswitchs) and another one, with the offboard stuff really offboard (so the pcb is a bit smaller).
Nice looking board, thanks for the report as well. When I get some spare time I'll change the schematic and my vero layout to include the extra 2u2 cap, and maybe make a few other tweaks based on the information different people have posted here.
Ive built my echobase from a board I got from John Lyons, populated it according to the anonymousfacelesscoward ?? layout and I cant get anything out of it. My audio probe only gets sound out of the first couple solder terminals. Anyone else have this problem? Ive looked for solder bridges all over and I cant find any. Im hoping someone else has had this same problem and can tell me where to start looking on such a big board. (this is my most complicated build to date)
Thanks in advance.
Ill follow up with pics and pinout voltages.
Hi, pics and voltage readings will help!
Can you read the schematic? If so, use that as a guide to follow the audiopath. check it from input to the first IC, out of the first IC, into the next etc.
(http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/mikemaddux/IMG_2286.jpg)
(http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/mikemaddux/IMG_2285.jpg)
(http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/mikemaddux/IMG_2284.jpg)
(http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/mikemaddux/IMG_2282.jpg)
pin voltages to come
I do love them blue boards!
I could be optic-illusion, but from the pics I'd say look at the area's I marked below:
(http://xs537.xs.to/xs537/09134/pcb721.jpg)
I looks like there are some shorts there. There may be more, I did just a quick scan.
Quote from: slacker on March 09, 2009, 02:29:06 PM
Making the changes D.O.O.H.H. suggested will work fine. Technically the cap needs to be non-polar but instead you can use two normal 10uF electrolytic caps, connect the negative ends to the opamp pins and connect the positive ends together, that makes a non-polar cap.
It'll probably work fine with just a normal 10uF electro though.
hi, is this mod in order to use a 100k pot instead of the 47k delay time pot?
if so which cap is being changed (is it c25 on the vero layout?)
it would be useful to me as I have only 100k spare for the delay time pot
..if not would using the linear pot trick work ok http://www.diystompboxes.com/analogalchemy/emh/emh.html (http://www.diystompboxes.com/analogalchemy/emh/emh.html)
excellent project btw ;D
the mod mentioned was just for the 1M LFO pot.
However, I am using only 100k lin pots for all the pots in the echbase.
For the delay-time, just throw in a 100k pot. You'll get the possibility to get longer delays, no adjustments needed.
Quote from: Auke Haarsma on March 26, 2009, 07:56:52 AM
the mod mentioned was just for the 1M LFO pot.
However, I am using only 100k lin pots for all the pots in the echbase.
For the delay-time, just throw in a 100k pot. You'll get the possibility to get longer delays, no adjustments needed.
sweet ;D thanks.
Quote from: mikemaddux on March 26, 2009, 06:35:23 AM
(http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/mikemaddux/IMG_2284.jpg)
On this picture it looks like your opamps are the wrong way round. On that layout the opamps are upside down compared to the other 2 chips, so looking at the board with the slanted corners at the top the spot, which normally tells you where pin 1 is, should be bottom right of the chip.
Unfortunately if you've put them in the wrong way round you've probably killed them :(
Quote from: Auke Haarsma on March 26, 2009, 06:44:18 AM
I do love them blue boards!
I could be optic-illusion, but from the pics I'd say look at the area's I marked below:
(http://xs537.xs.to/xs537/09134/pcb721.jpg)
I looks like there are some shorts there. There may be more, I did just a quick scan.
Thanks for the help!
The lower left one is a jumper that is arched over the trace. I forgot to put the jumper in under the IC :icon_redface:
Ill look at the other two tonight when I get home. I know, chances are its probably a shoddy soldering job on my part.
this is a little OT but does anyone know if I can get a fine pencil tip that will screw on to my soldering iron?
My regular one just isnt cutting it for tight boards like this one.
your welcome.
Please also check Slackers post about the IC's being oriented incorrectly. I just looked at the pic, Slackers looked at the layout!
Quote from: Auke Haarsma on March 27, 2009, 04:03:03 AM
your welcome.
Please also check Slackers post about the IC's being oriented incorrectly. I just looked at the pic, Slackers looked at the layout!
" I just looked at the pic, Slackers looked at the layout!"
I dont quite get what you are trying to say...
Quote from: mikemaddux on March 27, 2009, 08:46:54 PM
Quote from: Auke Haarsma on March 27, 2009, 04:03:03 AM
your welcome.
Please also check Slackers post about the IC's being oriented incorrectly. I just looked at the pic, Slackers looked at the layout!
" I just looked at the pic, Slackers looked at the layout!"
I dont quite get what you are trying to say...
Hi Mike,
He just means that he didn't compare the layout to your picture so didn't notice the TL072's were installed the wrong way around.
Take care,
dave
I now see what he was saying, I had missed slacker's earlier post.
I switched around the TL072s and am now getting bypassed signal and a slightly lower volume uneffected signal when the effect is on.
Ill search around the 20 some odd pages in the post to debug this problem tomorrow.
Ive got to say this board is driving me nuts. I may have to scrap it and start over.
there is a good chance the tl072 chips are blown since they were in backwards. You may need to replace those...
pin voltages would help debugging!
Yeah check your voltages against the ones on page 4 of this thread that should help figure out what's wrong.
looking at the board, component side up, with the cut corners at the top.
top right TL072
8.75
2.66
0.28
0.00
0.28
8.72
8.75
9.36
bottom left TL072
8.29
4.06
0.28
0.41
5.67
0.28
8.32
8.92
PT2399
0.20
0.10
3-16 0.00
CD4066
0.16
0.16
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.82
0.00
9.25
9.25
0.16
0.16
7.67
8.81
9.39
This thing seems really screwed up...
doesn't look good indeed...
what's coming out of the 7805? (voltage reg)
Do you have to use that 7805? or can you use a 78L05?
I always mix those up ;) 7805 and 78L05 should both do the trick. 7805 is overkill though.
Yeah a 78L05 will be fine, I used a 7805 because I had some lying around.
Mike, something is very wrong there, looks like there's a problem with the voltage regulator, because you're not getting 5 volts anywhere.
Try pulling all the ICs and then measure the voltage on all 3 pins of the regulator, with the layout how you had it for your other measurements you should get 9 volts on the top pin, 0 on the middle, and 5 volts on the bottom. It might also help to look at the the layout here (http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/folder/903906.html?m=lc&p=2) the red traces should be 9 volts and the orange ones 5 volts.
If you still don't get 5 volts where you should it probably means you've got a short somewhere, pulling the 5 volts down, in which case the regulator will probably be hot. Or you've got the regulator in the wrong way.
If you do get 5 volts with the ICs removed then the most likely thing is that you didn't replace the TL072s and they have been damaged by putting them in the wrong way round and are shorting the 5 volts out.
I did replace the ICs when you said to.
The 7805 i used was getting hot when I first built this. I assumed I had it the wrong way and rotated it 180 degrees. Just to be clear, that was b4 I posted my problem on here.
I dont get any voltage out of any pins of the 7805.
I had purchased this board and when I changed the orientation of the 7805 one of the solder pads fell off.
Could it be an issue with a low quality board?
So have I now fried all the new ICs I put in there?
I don't think it is a low quality board (it is from John right?). However, a board can be damaged during soldering. Happens to me sometimes too. Doesn't mean the board cannot be used anymore. You just have to make sure the connection that is damaged gets restored.
Here are some points to check to help you debug.
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/21f8ac7c58.jpg)
The yellow area (1) is the main +9V line. Here is where the 9V enters the PCB. Measure here. Do you get +9V ?
Next, go to yello area (2). This is where the 9V gets to the 5V regulator. I can see now that the area is damaged. Check that the pin makes contact with the 9V trace. From your report I expect that that there is a problem here.
If there is no contact, you can swap in a new regulator and bent the pin for 9V to the trace. That's how I often solve these issues.
Now check blue (3). This should be reading 0V since it is connected to ground. Does it read 0V?
Finally check pink (4). This is where you would expect 5V coming out of the regulator.
Your voltagereadings do suggest there is more wrong than just the 5V reg. However, I'd say first try to fix/verify this.
update:
I checked the solder joints on my 7805 regulator, the damaged joint had come loose again so I soldered it back in place and
1) I am getting 8.1 at the input
2) It was damaged as you thought and like I said above I reslodered that joint and I am getting 8.1 at that junction
3) I am getting 0.00 at the ground connection
4) The regulator is outputing 5.08 at this point.
I checked all these with the chips removed. I removed the battery and replaced all the chips. I pluged the battery back in and smelled that smell we all dread the most. I felt all the chips and the top right TL072 was very hot and I removed it immediately.
Since it was plugged into my demo amp it started producing a strange circuit bent type chirping noise. all the pots respond and slow the pitch/speed/volume.....
Thanks for the help everyone. Auke, great walkthrough. BTW I wasnt implying anything about John's PCB etching abilities. He is the man when it comes to etching, Ive completed two of his other boards successfully. I was more asking about separation of copper from PCBs without applied pressure as ive never had this happen before.
Ill reply with pin voltages. Thanks again.
OK so I plugged the old TL072 that I had pulled out when slacker told me they were backwards.
I imagined that since the TL072 was getting hot it must be in the wrong way. I flipped it around and started to mess witht the wires on the 100K delay volume pot. I noticed when I applied pressure to the pot it would work.
I replaced that pot and now have a semi working echobase.
the repeats seem pretty distorted so im sure there is more to this debugging, but at least all the knobs, switches, and LED work.
Thanks again guys. Anyone know about the distorted repeats?
Hi!Distorted repeats?Ok.Replace two res.47k(pin14 and pin15 of PT2399) to 22k or 24k,decrease feedback pot to 47k and replace res.20k(out of feedback) to a trimpot 47k.And sorry,friends,for my very-very bad English,I'm from Ukraine(offtopic).Good luck! :icon_wink:
it depends on the cause of the distortion. If you have a fully functional echobase but get distorted repeats with signals (like humbuckers) but clean with not-so-hot-signals (like single coils), I'd suggest to drop the feedback-limiting diodes.
i just finished building one using the anon-faceless-coward layout. i've managed to get it to work, had some problems with noise early on and some overlooked jumpers. my only problem now is a very hot signal. what would be the easiest way to tame the echo base's output?
I think my self-quote below could help you out. With too hot a singal out of the EchoBase, I assume you mean the volume of the delayd signal?
Quote from: Auke Haarsma on March 22, 2009, 06:16:04 PM
(...)
Feedback pot causes too loud feedback too soon / oscilliation
There is a resistor to tweak here. Focus on the 20k resistor running from the middle lug of the feedbackpot. Raise this value to tame the feedback pot. I swapped in a pot and dialed my 'perfect' value. Turned out to be 135k. No resistor with that value in my stash ofcourse. 120k would still cause oscilliation before reaching the end of the feedbackpot, so I put in 150k. Does the trick. I'd would probably be a good idea to replace the 20k resistor with a trimpot (say 150k or 250k).
Auke, i did read about feedback resistor tweak but the loudness problems i'm having are related to the total output. even with bypass on i get a very hot signal, way hotter than unity. the pedal works, i just have to turn my amp way down. if i attempt "normal" amp settings i get ridiculous volume and amplified noise, whether it be with our without delay.
any ideas? i'll post my voltage readings shortly.
That's very strange, the bypass signal is just a couple of buffers so it should be the same volume as your guitar straight into the amp.
I would check the value of all the resistors around the input and the op amp that makes up the buffers, especially the 2M2 and 10k resistors, if some of those were incorrect values or if they were switched around that could cause it to be louder than it should be.
thanks slacker, i'll check when i get home. i'm pretty certain i used all the right values but i might have read a resistor code incorrectly. last time i put a 75k into what was supposed to be a 15k because i mistook purple for brown. some of those colors are hard to read. on top of that, my etch was pretty dismal. some of my traces are razor thin. i got impatient and rather than etching a second board i got to work right away. while all the traces pass continuity tests, the board is a total mess. next build should be prettier.
on another side note, i'm using a recycled box i purchased in a lot with a bunch of other guys from the board. i'm thinking of adding a 6th pot for wave shape control, since the box would lend itself for that very nicely. earlier on the thread there was a post regarding the wave shape pot's location, and i believe it was posted via schematic. while i'm sure i can figure out where to drill the holes for the pot's leads from that schematic fragment, i would like a second opinion. i used the layout that was originally on the japanese page.
i appreciate the help.
Quote from: slacker on April 02, 2009, 05:00:46 PM
That's very strange, the bypass signal is just a couple of buffers so it should be the same volume as your guitar straight into the amp.
I would check the value of all the resistors around the input and the op amp that makes up the buffers, especially the 2M2 and 10k resistors, if some of those were incorrect values or if they were switched around that could cause it to be louder than it should be.
the two 10k resistors under the buffer were actually 30k. this is why one shouldn't solder for 6 hours straight. after taking those off and replacing them with 10k the volume dropped considerably. its still a bit loud but its not ridiculous like it was before.
regarding this:
Quote from: burdt on April 02, 2009, 06:10:31 PM
on another side note, i'm using a recycled box i purchased in a lot with a bunch of other guys from the board. i'm thinking of adding a 6th pot for wave shape control, since the box would lend itself for that very nicely. earlier on the thread there was a post regarding the wave shape pot's location, and i believe it was posted via schematic. while i'm sure i can figure out where to drill the holes for the pot's leads from that schematic fragment, i would like a second opinion. i used the layout that was originally on the japanese page.
y'all can forget about that. i'm quitting while i'm ahead. i want to play so i boxed it into the recycled box and left a bunch of open holes. it is a prototype after all. i'll call them speed holes, like homer simpson...
hi, just starting the debug of my vero build, so a couple of points I could use help with...
I had c24 (47u) connected 1 row lower than on the vero layout (pin 6 instead of 5 on U1 ), I sorted this..hopefully it didn't damage anything!!
also I'm using a bc558b for q3 <-- is this OK?
and bc548b for q1 (sure this is ok)
also I have a 100k trim for r17 for the feedback (i also added a 47k after this to the wiper).
basically I'm getting mega oscillation, or with level zeroed it get clean guitar,
I get "some" response from all the pots with exception of mod speed pot.
I will check the voltages this afternoon if I have the time :)
geoff.
EDIT: I had a L7805 in and the pinout is different :-[ will I have fried my chips!!
Quote from: fegg on April 03, 2009, 08:07:39 AM
hi, just starting the debug of my vero build, so a couple of points I could use help with...
I had c24 (47u) connected 1 row lower than on the vero layout (pin 6 instead of 5 on U1 ), I sorted this..hopefully it didn't damage anything!!
That won't of damaged anything.
Quote
also I'm using a bc558b for q3 <-- is this OK?
and bc548b for q1 (sure this is ok)
also I have a 100k trim for r17 for the feedback (i also added a 47k after this to the wiper).
Those changes should all be fine.
Quote
EDIT: I had a L7805 in and the pinout is different :-[ will I have fried my chips!!
If you were unlucky you might of fried the PT2399, everything else should be Ok. What I always do is power the circuit up for the first time with none of the chips in and then measure the voltages on the power pins of the sockets to make sure I'm getting 9 volts, 5 volts and ground in the correct places, that way you'll hopefully spot any errors and you don't risk frying the chips.
Finished mine yesterday! ;D
When adding the 2.2uF to stop the LFO bleed, does the polarity matter? which way should I connect it?
Thanks!
The positive end of the cap goes to pin 7 of the opamp the negative end goes to ground.
I've been enjoying my Echo Base for the past month and it occurred to me that an external button-type switch to dial the feedback pot up/down would be really useful. I personally am not very adept at using a wah (something about the balancing act :icon_redface: ). But if I could step on a button switch and hold it down to dial up the feedback as I'm playing, I'm thinking it could create some really expressive sounds on-the-fly. Releasing the button would return the feedback level to the setting on the pedal itself. Of course, this would be cool for any of the pots. Does anyone know how this might be done? Thanks in advance!
Have a look at RG's LERA design http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/lera/lera.htm (http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/lera/lera.htm). That could probably be made to do what you want, you'd just have to figure out the best place to put the LDR, from the top of the feedback pot to after the "feedback" resistor would probably work.
You could also add this to the delay time or mod speed pots.
Thanks Ian! I took a look at the LERA, and clearly R.G.'s other article "Add an Expression Pedal to Any Effect" lays out the easier method - I just have to be willing to use a rocker assembly I guess.
Just built this today from a Veroboard layout I found, it had a few minor errors which might have been fixed since but I noticed them as I was building so all was well. I was very pleasantly surprised that it fired up and worked first time! Sounds great and I'm really happy with it, will be boxing this one up for sure.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v48/MikeyJazz/09042009143.jpg)
Thanks very much to the original designer and the person who made the layout, great pedal!
Cool, glad you like it.
That looks like my "true bypass" layout from here (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasebutchered.jpg.html). If it is if you let me know what errors you found I'll correct it, I did it very quickly because someone asked for it, I didn't bother checking or building it.
Actually just looking at it now I can see one straight away, the top left opamp has no ground connection :icon_redface:
Welcome to the forum :)
Quote from: slacker on April 09, 2009, 11:44:49 AM
Cool, glad you like it.
That looks like my "true bypass" layout from here (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasebutchered.jpg.html). If it is if you let me know what errors you found I'll correct it, I did it very quickly because someone asked for it, I didn't bother checking or building it.
Actually just looking at it now I can see one straight away, the top left opamp has no ground connection :icon_redface:
Welcome to the forum :)
Cheers! That was the only major one, the other two were just missing part number labels, I believe on the main 9V filter cap (C26) and also the coupling cap to the Feedback CW lug (C16), however that aside it was all completely fine, you have no idea how big the smile was on my face when I fired it up and it worked first time. I've built a fair few pedals before, but only in the Boost/Drive/Distortion or Tremolo realm, Delay is completely magical to me and when I came across this layout I couldn't resist and did the parts order. Now it's working I can't wait to get it boxed up and on my board, I think my Deluxe Memory Man is going under the bed in it's box to accumulate value instead!
Thanks for that, I'll correct the layout.
I'm loving mine, but it's quite noisy...
I'm running it off a 9v battery inside the enclosure, could this be why?
Everything seems to work as it should, just noisy, both bypassed and engaged - also the LFO still bleeds through when bypassed even though I added the 2.2uF...
What type of caps did you use around the PT2399?
mine is working perfect after reading all this page.
debugging and modified. I put dry/wet signal ,changing two 47k
and 200n connected to feedback. and now i can control the feedback
all the way up. the blend is really cool as well you can put to pure delay
to normal guitar signal. Many Many THANKS to SLACKER!
@ ShortscaleMike
I used those little yellow box caps, 1 ceramic, and the electro's were either miniature or micro-miniatures (all from Rapid)
Could the yellow boxes just not be good in delays or something?
If you have a bleed of the wet signal which you can, albeit softly, hear in bypass, what is the first place to look/modify?
Quote from: kierc on April 11, 2009, 08:22:12 AM
@ ShortscaleMike
I used those little yellow box caps, 1 ceramic, and the electro's were either miniature or micro-miniatures (all from Rapid)
Could the yellow boxes just not be good in delays or something?
I dunno, I used mainly WIMAs and mine is very quiet.
All finished in fact, thanks again slacker and all for their input in this thread.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v48/MikeyJazz/180420091072.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v48/MikeyJazz/180420091075.jpg)
I was going for a two tone metallic finish with Green for the Delay section and Blue for the Modulation.
Quote from: kierc on April 10, 2009, 09:37:18 AM
I'm loving mine, but it's quite noisy...
I'm running it off a 9v battery inside the enclosure, could this be why?
Everything seems to work as it should, just noisy, both bypassed and engaged - also the LFO still bleeds through when bypassed even though I added the 2.2uF...
Batteries will actually give less noise, providing they are new and giving out a nice and healthy 9V.
I know it's been discussed many times in this thread; but can someone give a comprehensive post, with hopefully a wiring diagram showing an effects loop in the Echo Base?
I had went thru the entire thread and made a bunch of notes about it where I saw it mentioned, but now lost the notes and am not looking forward to going thru all that again. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I know there's two different places that the loop can be placed, so a good explanation of each place would be appreciated as well.
hmm ???
May have to check all the grounding then? The battery is fresh out of a packet ( a Woolworths one in fact! was saving it to sell for profit but I wanted to test this out lol )
I did use all single-core wire though, and it was a pretty tight squash into a BB...
Click thumbs for better size
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/kier357/th_P1020881.jpg) (http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/kier357/?action=view¤t=P1020881.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/kier357/th_P1020889.jpg) (http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/kier357/?action=view¤t=P1020889.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/kier357/th_P1020890.jpg) (http://s68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/kier357/?action=view¤t=P1020890.jpg)
The wires on the solder-side are for the 2.2uF to stop the LFO bleed when bypassed - but for some reason it doesn't work! (same as without it - still bleeds through)
Mine is solid-core wire too, it's all I use for pedals.
Here is a demo video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlSsMIK0s4
Quote from: kierc on April 10, 2009, 09:37:18 AM
- also the LFO still bleeds through when bypassed even though I added the 2.2uF...
Raise the 2.2uF till you find a quite value. I just figured out 100uF (yup, one hundred uF) works for me.
well, just raised even further...470uF. And it does have an effect on the modulation. Kind of like it.
Quote from: ShortScaleMike on April 18, 2009, 02:44:47 PM
Mine is solid-core wire too, it's all I use for pedals.
Here is a demo video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlSsMIK0s4
Ah it's you!! lol
I've seen quite a few of your demo videos, keep doing the good work ;)
Gonna have a poke around when I have some spare time, I'm not too bothered about it though as I mostly just play clean, but like to have some fun now and then 8)
edit : after listening to your demo - yours sounds alot better than mine :( ( well the first 3 mins anyway - my net is too slow at the moment to load it all! )
Quote from: kierc on April 18, 2009, 04:16:59 PM
Quote from: ShortScaleMike on April 18, 2009, 02:44:47 PM
Mine is solid-core wire too, it's all I use for pedals.
Here is a demo video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlSsMIK0s4
Ah it's you!! lol
I've seen quite a few of your demo videos, keep doing the good work ;)
Gonna have a poke around when I have some spare time, I'm not too bothered about it though as I mostly just play clean, but like to have some fun now and then 8)
edit : after listening to your demo - yours sounds alot better than mine :( ( well the first 3 mins anyway - my net is too slow at the moment to load it all! )
haha Cheers man. I'll keep demoing stuff as I come across it. Unfortunately after an initial flurry of stuff I owned at the time and could borrow now I can only demo as I buy/sell/build which is pretty slow. I've become boringly satisfied with my setup!
I'm sure you'll figure out what's wrong with it, sometimes it's just worth walking away from it for a while, but I know how hard that can be.
Quote from: jimosity on April 18, 2009, 01:44:34 PM
I know it's been discussed many times in this thread; but can someone give a comprehensive post, with hopefully a wiring diagram showing an effects loop in the Echo Base?
I had went thru the entire thread and made a bunch of notes about it where I saw it mentioned, but now lost the notes and am not looking forward to going thru all that again. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I know there's two different places that the loop can be placed, so a good explanation of each place would be appreciated as well.
I concluded that the best spot was before pin 14. The point where the 4n7 meets the 10k and 47k at the top right of the schem. The 4n7 is the send. You can wire up a DPTP to bypass the loop, or switching jacks if you like.
This way should make each repeat more effected, the first repeat will be effected, and also the level going into the loop should be tamer than the other way. My Echo Base isn't done yet, so I can't say how well this works yet.
Quote from: Taylor on April 18, 2009, 08:57:24 PM
Quote from: jimosity on April 18, 2009, 01:44:34 PM
I know it's been discussed many times in this thread; but can someone give a comprehensive post, with hopefully a wiring diagram showing an effects loop in the Echo Base?
I had went thru the entire thread and made a bunch of notes about it where I saw it mentioned, but now lost the notes and am not looking forward to going thru all that again. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I know there's two different places that the loop can be placed, so a good explanation of each place would be appreciated as well.
I concluded that the best spot was before pin 14. The point where the 4n7 meets the 10k and 47k at the top right of the schem. The 4n7 is the send. You can wire up a DPTP to bypass the loop, or switching jacks if you like.
This way should make each repeat more effected, the first repeat will be effected, and also the level going into the loop should be tamer than the other way. My Echo Base isn't done yet, so I can't say how well this works yet.
Thanks man, I'll try that here shortly.
Are you saying make 4n7 the send before it goes to the resistors or before it goes to pin 14?
I'm thinking you mean that it sends from the 4n7 before it goes to the 10k and 47k and the return comes back in to those two resistors; correct?
Yep, that's right, the return is the junction of those 2 resistors.
Quote from: Taylor on April 18, 2009, 08:57:24 PM
Quote from: jimosity on April 18, 2009, 01:44:34 PM
I know it's been discussed many times in this thread; but can someone give a comprehensive post, with hopefully a wiring diagram showing an effects loop in the Echo Base?
I had went thru the entire thread and made a bunch of notes about it where I saw it mentioned, but now lost the notes and am not looking forward to going thru all that again. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I know there's two different places that the loop can be placed, so a good explanation of each place would be appreciated as well.
I concluded that the best spot was before pin 14. The point where the 4n7 meets the 10k and 47k at the top right of the schem. The 4n7 is the send. You can wire up a DPTP to bypass the loop, or switching jacks if you like.
This way should make each repeat more effected, the first repeat will be effected, and also the level going into the loop should be tamer than the other way. My Echo Base isn't done yet, so I can't say how well this works yet.
Just wired it up this way and can confirm that each repeat does NOT get more and more effected.
With this wiring; the direct signal goes thru and then the first repeat is effected and all repeats after are the same as the first repeat.
I tested with an octave pedal in the loop and all repeats are the same octave pitch; not gradually going up or down as I had hoped.
Does anyone have a perf-layout with the mods?
Or can anyone make one?
I'd do it myself, but my layout-making skills are few and I just follow the schematic so the layout turns out HUGE!
OK - I just verified two more things;
1) Where the feedback pot lug 2 connects to the board; there's a 20K resistor. Replacing with a 100K resistor tames the feedback pot so that it doesn't oscillate as quick and is much more controllable; this was mentioned early in the thread, but I wanted to bring it up again since it does help the oscillation too early issue I was having.
2) To add the WET effects loop (each repeat is more effected) - take the wire from lug 2 of the feedback pot and it goes to the tip of your SEND, then the tip of your RETURN goes to where lug 2 would have gone on the board.
**This version of the wet loop gives you one normal repeat and then each subsequent repeat is more and more effected. This is NOT the mod where the first repeat is effected.
I added shunting jacks and am using both the dry loop and wet loop for some real insanity. Another delay in the wet loop with a slapback delay almost turns into a reverb sort of effect that kicks in around the third or fourth repeat... I tried a second delay in the dry loop and a third delay in the wet loop and my mind started to turn to mush...
Then I crammed it all back into the box and now I'm only getting one repeat no matter what on my feedback loop so I need to do a little troubleshooting before I do much else.
Starting to think I need a larger enclosure....
Check it out (CLICK HERE (http://www.bmfelectronics.com/pedals/echobase.jpg))
I use PCB layouts; so I can't give you a perf layout; but heres the layout that I used showing the mods...
I know there's two different versions of the anonfacecow layout; but this is the one I've used a couple times without any problems, so I keep using it.
(http://www.bmfelectronics.com/pedals/EchoBaseWithMods.jpg)
Here's the layout with the change to give you send/receive for the dry loop mod; since there's no traces needing cut for the wet loop mod, no layout change is needed for that mod.
(http://www.bmfelectronics.com/pedals/EchoBaseWithDryLoopModLAYOUT.jpg)
THANKS ALOT!
Quote from: jimosity on April 19, 2009, 12:36:10 PM
Starting to think I need a larger enclosure....
Check it out (CLICK HERE (http://www.bmfelectronics.com/pedals/echobase.jpg))
you sure like your delays! How would I connect these two loops? Would it not be better with a toggleswitch to choose between the dry/wet? or?
Quote from: kristoffereide on April 19, 2009, 12:55:48 PM
Quote from: jimosity on April 19, 2009, 12:36:10 PM
Starting to think I need a larger enclosure....
Check it out (CLICK HERE (http://www.bmfelectronics.com/pedals/echobase.jpg))
you sure like your delays! How would I connect these two loops? Would it not be better with a toggleswitch to choose between the dry/wet? or?
I suppose you could do it with a toogle, but I wanted to be able to use both at the same time with different effects in each loop; so I chose to keep them separate.
I'm using shunting jacks so that when nothing is connected; it's just as if the loops were not there at all.
To wire the shunting jacks; I've got them like this:
Wire from SEND on board (or pot depending on which mod you're doing) goes to the TIP of the shunting jack, which will be your SEND jack.
Wire from RETURN on board goes to the TIP of the RETURN jack, which is just a standard mono jack.
There is a second wire between the RETURN jack TIP an the shunting pin of the SEND jack.
The shield of both the send and return jacks has no connection to them at all.
Like this:
(http://www.bmfelectronics.com/pedals/shuntingjacks.jpg)
oh, yes I understand how to wire the pedal, but I was thinking about the connection of the loops. What pedals do you have in the dry loop, and what pedals in the wet? I guess you have the pedal on at all times?
not sure if this has been covered, but i want to add an expression pedal jack to 2 of the pots. I want to use the same jack and switch between them via toggle. what type of toggle would i use? maybe a dpdt or 3pdt? i was thinking the speed pot and either the delay time or mix pot. thanks
Well I've checked all the grounding - that seems fine...
I've also upped the 2.2uF (for the LFO bleed) to 100uF, and then to 220uF - still bleeds and still very noisy both engaged and bypassed ???
The modulation doesn't sound as good as ShortScaleMikes', so could a chip be bad? I have some spare PT2399's, don't think I have any of the others spare though...
Also, I couldn't get a hold of some 100K Logs, so I used Lins with a resistor across pins 1 and 2 (wiper and right - looking at it from the back) - the pots are the green plastic ones from Rapid aswell - could these be causing it?
What sort of noise is it?
In "bypass" there shouldn't be any noise, I would remove the CD4066, PT2399 and the LFO opamp and see if the noise goes away. If it does plug them back in one at a time and see when the noise comes back, that will give you an idea what's causing it.
If it's still noisy with those removed you've either got a dodgy opamp in the buffer/mixer or you've got a more serious problem possibly incorrect component values somewhere.
Voltages would help :)
I've got an Echo Base that is not getting any LFO at all.
It's liketh Mod Depth acts as a "fine tune" for the delay time and the Mod Speed does nothing.
Any ideas?
Quote from: jimosity on April 23, 2009, 10:11:20 PM
I've got an Echo Base that is not getting any LFO at all.
It's liketh Mod Depth acts as a "fine tune" for the delay time and the Mod Speed does nothing.
Any ideas?
Turned out to be a flaky TL072, replaced and works just fine.
I love how I keep answering my own questions! HA!
Glad you sorted it out :)
I done what you suggested Slacker, except I remebered it wrong and removed all but the LFO chip :icon_rolleyes: lol
Anyway, it went pretty quiet, and stayed the same after I had replaced the chips, bar the PT2399, so I put a different one in and it's now pretty much there :)
ALOT better now! Might try and replace the LFO chip with a spare and see if the modulation gets any better...
Thanks for the great help and for your project 8)
I perfed one of these, it didn't work, and I decided that debugging such a cramped circuit on perf was a nightmare. So I got a couple of PCBs made, made one up, and it worked on first power-up.
This thing is so much fun. The effects loop I added (thanks to Jimosity) is awesome. I have a Ring Stinger ring mod in the loop, so each repeat is more ring modulated. A lot of settings of the RS are too noisy with this approach, but when I get it dialed in right, and figure out the magic notes to play, it becomes this insane alien arpeggiator sound.
I've never had an analog-style delay before, only purely digital, and I have to say I really like the sound, even if this is not actually analog. Cranking the repeats and fiddling with feedback time, then trying tremolo in the loop, I can get all kinds of weird synth sounds without even playing anything on my instrument.
Nice job, Slacker! Also thanks to John Lyons for the nice boards - after perfing a ton of stuff, it's so luxurious to build on a really nice PCB.
Nice Job Slacker!, I'm using the LFO driving a Rebote (I like the filtering from the rebote), i'm trying to use it as a chorus but I have a problem:
With the Time pot on 0 (short delay for chorus effect) when I power the pedal it doesn't work. If I turn the Depth pot all the way up to the maximum modulation the pedal works perfect or if I set the delay time a little up, like a slapback time or something like that. In any other point of the pot the pedal doesn't start. It's really anoying being a couple of hours setting the depth, speed and delay time for the perfect sound and then have to move it arround for the pedal to work. :icon_neutral:.
I've checked all the traces, shorts, bad soldering, layout, components (replaced IC's, used TL072, LM358, replaced BC560, checked the orientation for the transistor, etc, etc, etc). I have no idea what can be, any ideas??
I'm now using TL072 for the LFO. I put a 1N4148 in series with the LFO Output to pin 6 (anode to pin 6), worked fine for a while and then again the same problem. Any ideas?
i would like to know what could be a suitable replacement for the CD4066 since i cant find it in my local electronic store. :icon_sad:
thanx
CD4016
I had posted in an earlier thread about where the dry loop and wet loops are located; indicating that I had tested these locations and verified that they work where I said.
Seems I may have mistaken the dry loop. I had said it was this:
"I concluded that the best spot was before pin 14. The point where the 4n7 meets the 10k and 47k at the top right of the schem. The 4n7 is the send. You can wire up a DPTP to bypass the loop, or switching jacks if you like."
I had tested this with a distortion unit and an octave unit in the dry loop and each repeat was dirty and nasty, so I thought that was from the distortion or the crappy octave unit in the loop; assuming that it was working correctly.
HOWEVER; It seem that I was mistaken, it was giving harsh distorted repeats at this location no matter what effect was in the loop.
I probed around and found another good spot to put the return (the send is in the same spot and the trace is still cut where indicated).
See the updated graphic below, just tapping the return at the same spot as the 100n and 100k (change from original value to tame feedback pot) gives a good dry loop.
(http://www.bmfelectronics.com/pedals/EchoBaseWithMods2.jpg)
Hello again,
I just want to talk about an issue with the "delay version" of this pedal, I mean the echobase without modulation, removing the LFO and changing the 39 K r for 100 Ohm r. I have built this "version" and tried it in a Fender Sidekick Reverb amp and it has a lot of "hiss" noise. I really don't know where the hiss can come from.. Is there anybody that have built this version of the pedal with the same problem?
Thanks.
If all you have done is remove the LFO it should sound exactly the same as the normal version, there's no reason why it should hiss.
Yes, that's all I did. I think ther could be a problem with the amp.. I',m gonna try it in another amp.
I sent a partially working board to a forum member to debug/rebuild and got a completely different board back that has no sound whatsoever...and he charged me tons of cash. But enough about that. I posted a question earlier with no reply so here it is again:
"not sure if this has been covered, but i want to add an expression pedal jack to 2 of the pots. I want to use the same jack and switch between them via toggle. what type of toggle would i use? maybe a dpdt or 3pdt? i was thinking the speed pot and either the delay time or mix pot."
Thanks guys...& yes. I quoted myself! :-\
I don't think you can very easily use 1 jack and switch it between controlling 2 pots. There's too many connections that would need switching, plus the fact that the delay time and the mod speed use completely different pot values. I guess if you really wanted to do it some sort of multipole rotary switch might do the job, but it would be a lot of effort.
Actually there might be a way to do it, let me think about it.
Hey slacker (or anyone for that matter), did you try out PTAP on the echo base yet? I can't wait to see some end results.
Not yet, haven't had time. I'm definitely going to order one though.
I got kinda bored and made up a tap tempo PCB off of the two IC's and schematic from the PTAP. Not sure if they are right, but oh well, maybe someone can see some fix. I don't know if there is a layout/PCB for it yet, but here is another one anyway. About 1"x 1.2", so pretty small. Could be smaller I guess. I put on the 5v reg because the notes say it should have its own, or it could introduce noise.
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg114/mth5044/tap.gif)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg114/mth5044/tappnp.gif)
http://thoughtprocessinc.com/files/PTAP%20Controller%20Manual.pdf
Like i said, could be smaller, but it's such a small circuit anyway, why not have a little solder room :)
It also has this note:
"NOTE: Both the timing calculations and current-limiting considerations are based on this series resistor
being 1k, which is the standard value for most PT2399 kits. Other values will results in incorrect timing,
and values lower than 1k will cause the digital pot to exceed its maximum pin current."
Is it 1k in the echo base?
Quote from: mth5044 on May 16, 2009, 03:39:18 PM
Is it 1k in the echo base?
The Echo Base doesn't have that resistor. The minimum delay time is set by the resistance of the PNP transistor and is less than 1k. To use the PTAP you'll need to add the 1k resistor. Like I mentioned in the PTAP thread this might affect the ability to get the chorusy sounds.
Built th Echo Base (Thanks Ian!) and after realizing I had switched my in/out wires, I got it (mostly) working. Delay, level and feedback work great, but I don't have any modulation.
I checked voltages and I am finding some things that confuse me.
PT2399
All normal, except:
7 and 8 are 3.3v instead of 0.5
4066
1 and 2 are 2.8 should be 4.6
3 and 4 are 0.0 should be 0.4
5 is 0.0, normal
6 is really weird. It should be 0.45 on 4.5 on, but I get .08 off, and when it is on and I touch it with the meter lead, the effect turns off.
7 is 0.0, normal
8 is 2.26 should be 9.0
9 is 1.92 on and 0.0 off should be 3.0 on and 0.32 off
10 and 11 are 2.89 should be 4.6
12 is 8.5 on, normal
13 is 7.5 should be 8.5
14 is 9.0, normal
TL082, top left of vero, U3
all normal except:
6 is 3.37, should be 5.0
TL072, bottom left of vero, U1
all normal except:
2 is 3.62 should be 5.0
5 stays at 4.12, should change.
Voltage regulator and all transistors work the way they should. Any thoughts?
Quote from: mth5044 on May 16, 2009, 03:39:18 PM
I got kinda bored and made up a tap tempo PCB off of the two IC's and schematic from the PTAP. Not sure if they are right, but oh well, maybe someone can see some fix. I don't know if there is a layout/PCB for it yet, but here is another one anyway. About 1"x 1.2", so pretty small. Could be smaller I guess. I put on the 5v reg because the notes say it should have its own, or it could introduce noise.
One note: the delay pot is just forming a voltage divider for the MCU to read, but it has to divide the 5V, not the pedal's main 9V. So I would put a 5V pad on there for pin 3 as well (and pin 1 is grounded, which I assume is one of the "GND'd stuff" connections).
Quote from: slacker on May 17, 2009, 05:55:04 AM
Quote from: mth5044 on May 16, 2009, 03:39:18 PM
Is it 1k in the echo base?
The Echo Base doesn't have that resistor. The minimum delay time is set by the resistance of the PNP transistor and is less than 1k. To use the PTAP you'll need to add the 1k resistor. Like I mentioned in the PTAP thread this might affect the ability to get the chorusy sounds.
If I understand the explanation of modulation section correctly the PNP transistor and the 39k resistor in parallel form a small voltage controlled resistance, and it is at its minimum R when modulation is off. So with the modulation pot dialed to 0 we can measure the delay pot and the voltage on the collector, and derive the equivalent resistance. From there we know what value needs to go in series to total 1k.
This still doesn't help with the chorus sounds as I think they are supposed to be around 30ms and a 1k min resistance is equivalent to about 50ms. I really should just sit down and build the modulation section and test this myself. :)
Can someone help me out?
The bypass and boss/tails work perfectly.
Just double checked the whole back of the board with a 7x loupe. No solder bridges, incomplete trace cuts or anything.
Speed and modulation knobs are effecting voltage change on the PNP's base.
I replaced the transistor, no luck. Then, just for giggles, I turned it around in case my transistor had a weird pinout. It worked exactly as before. ??? What is going on? Voltages above.
This is very strange. What voltages do you get on pin 1 of the LFO opamp and what voltages do you get on the base of the transistor with the mod depth pot on maximum?
If you turn the delay time pot to minimum what sort of length delay do you get?
It's very tough to help people troubelshoot their boards without being able to see them, but I'll share my number one debug tip with you:
Go through and reheat every single solder joint. I have debugged many things this way, including some huge PCBs, and this has solved way more problems for me than my meter has. Just reheat and let the solder flow. This fixes some invisible problems with joints, where the solder has domed over the component leg without making good contact.
Isn't there any webpage about this pedal, with all the usefull info bundled?
Or do I have to go through 30+ pages? :-\
Quote from: carrejans on May 27, 2009, 03:23:52 PM
Isn't there any webpage about this pedal, with all the usefull info bundled?
Or do I have to go through 30+ pages? :-\
This (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.0) IS the webpage! :icon_surprised:
Yeah this is it ;D
I keep meaning to do a pdf or something with all the useful info in, I just haven't had time yet.
Quote from: carrejans on May 27, 2009, 03:23:52 PM
Isn't there any webpage about this pedal, with all the usefull info bundled?
Or do I have to go through 30+ pages? :-\
this is just a tad ungrateful, please be respectful. this is a community, not a service. please don't complain about how such a great project is developed and shared, just enjoy the project!
Quote from: Barcode80 on May 27, 2009, 03:56:26 PM
Quote from: carrejans on May 27, 2009, 03:23:52 PM
Isn't there any webpage about this pedal, with all the usefull info bundled?
Or do I have to go through 30+ pages? :-\
this is just a tad ungrateful, please be respectful. this is a community, not a service. please don't complain about how such a great project is developed and shared, just enjoy the project!
I wouldn't call it ungrateful. While I salute and respect the work others have put into this, it IS a bit tiring to go through so many pages for the information. It would be great if the first post on any build thread was left for constantly updated information. It could include the schematic/PCB layout (updated as it changes), parts list, troubleshooting tips w/ thread links, etc. I think it would cut down tremendously on the constant posts for help with problems that were covered 2 or more pages ago.
If you just want to build it stock all the info you need apart from the PCB layout is in the first 4 pages. Point taken though, it would be nice to be able to add things to the original post to keep it up to date.
I will say it might be helpful if we established a "projects" section like certain other forums so all the specific information on a pedal can be consolidated in one place. Though it would require more moderation which I'm not sure Aron really has the time for :)
hej since i cant find a CD4016 or CD4066, i was wondering if its possible to make the Echo Base with something like the buff n blender, and still keep the echo tails feature?
(http://seanm.ca/stomp/images/bblender.gif)
or maybe some other way that doesn't requiere that exotic componentes :-\
The CD4066 or CD4016 shouldn't be hard to find, I would think almost any electronics store would have them and there's plenty of places to buy them online. The place you are buying the PT2399 from will probably have them, Smallbear and Banzai definitely do.
If you really can't find any in theory you could change the pedal to use the stomp switch to instead of the CD4066, I can draw a modified schematic if you like. You might get problems with switch pop though.
Or you could use fets to do the switching instead, I haven't tried that though.
Hmm... I might have to build this one. I have another PT2399 based echo pedal, and it's a lot of fun with the tone control it has. I like the modulation feature on the Echo Base, though. It would be really, really cool if I could get something that does modulation and also has a tone control so you could get analog delay type sounds, too.
Quote from: theehman on May 27, 2009, 04:16:24 PM
Quote from: Barcode80 on May 27, 2009, 03:56:26 PM
Quote from: carrejans on May 27, 2009, 03:23:52 PM
Isn't there any webpage about this pedal, with all the usefull info bundled?
Or do I have to go through 30+ pages? :-\
this is just a tad ungrateful, please be respectful. this is a community, not a service. please don't complain about how such a great project is developed and shared, just enjoy the project!
I wouldn't call it ungrateful. While I salute and respect the work others have put into this, it IS a bit tiring to go through so many pages for the information. It would be great if the first post on any build thread was left for constantly updated information. It could include the schematic/PCB layout (updated as it changes), parts list, troubleshooting tips w/ thread links, etc. I think it would cut down tremendously on the constant posts for help with problems that were covered 2 or more pages ago.
Thank you EHman. That's what I was thinking too.
So Barcode; don't judge me. I wasn't ungratefull.
Thank you, slacker, for all your work. I just asked, because maybe there already was some kind of webpage or pdf, that I didn't notice.
Slacker, is it possible to use the part of the delay-tails on an AD3208?
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 28, 2009, 10:09:14 AM
Hmm... I might have to build this one. I have another PT2399 based echo pedal, and it's a lot of fun with the tone control it has.
Depending on where the tone control is on your pedal it should be possible to add it to the Echo Base, apart from the switching it's a pretty standard PT2399 circuit. Or you could add the modulation to your pedal, it will work with any PT2399 based pedal, I know some people have added it to the Rebote and PT80.
Quote from: carrejans on May 28, 2009, 11:09:54 AM
Thank you, slacker, for all your work. I just asked, because maybe there already was some kind of webpage or pdf, that I didn't notice.
No problem, no offence taken :)
Quote
Slacker, is it possible to use the part of the delay-tails on an AD3208?
It should be, you'd just need to decide where to put 4066 switches. Probably in between the first opamp stage and the SA571 and then after the second SA571 would be easiest.
Quote from: slacker on May 28, 2009, 12:52:53 PM
Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 28, 2009, 10:09:14 AM
Hmm... I might have to build this one. I have another PT2399 based echo pedal, and it's a lot of fun with the tone control it has.
Depending on where the tone control is on your pedal it should be possible to add it to the Echo Base, apart from the switching it's a pretty standard PT2399 circuit. Or you could add the modulation to your pedal, it will work with any PT2399 based pedal, I know some people have added it to the Rebote and PT80.
Yeah, the modulation part wouldn't be too hard. I don't know how I would add it to the pedal I have... I don't have a schematic for it.
I think this would be something to mess with on a breadboard using a building block approach and tweaking it as necessary to get the desired result.
Quote from: mth5044 on May 16, 2009, 03:39:18 PM
I got kinda bored and made up a tap tempo PCB off of the two IC's and schematic from the PTAP. Not sure if they are right, but oh well, maybe someone can see some fix. I don't know if there is a layout/PCB for it yet, but here is another one anyway. About 1"x 1.2", so pretty small. Could be smaller I guess. I put on the 5v reg because the notes say it should have its own, or it could introduce noise.
Just noticed that the connections for the 5V regulator are wrong. That could be trouble. :) Try:
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6743/ptap.gif)
(http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/8873/ptappnp.gif)
So you don't have to look back a page, my voltages are:
PT2399
All normal, except:
7 and 8 are 3.3v instead of 0.5
4066
1 and 2 are 2.8 should be 4.6
3 and 4 are 0.0 should be 0.4
5 is 0.0, normal
6 is really weird. It should be 0.45 on 4.5 on, but I get .08 off, and when it is on and I touch it with the meter lead, the effect turns off.
7 is 0.0, normal
8 is 2.26 should be 9.0
9 is 1.92 on and 0.0 off should be 3.0 on and 0.32 off
10 and 11 are 2.89 should be 4.6
12 is 8.5 on, normal
13 is 7.5 should be 8.5
14 is 9.0, normal
TL082, top left of vero, U3
all normal except:
6 is 3.37, should be 5.0
TL072, bottom left of vero, U1
all normal except:
2 is 3.62 should be 5.0
5 stays at 4.12, should change.
Voltage regulator and all transistors work the way they should.
Quote from: slacker on May 27, 2009, 07:47:01 AM
This is very strange. What voltages do you get on pin 1 of the LFO opamp and what voltages do you get on the base of the transistor with the mod depth pot on maximum?
If you turn the delay time pot to minimum what sort of length delay do you get?
It appears mod depth has NO affect on the voltage of either pin 1 of the LFO opamp or the Base of the transistor. speed however, in addition to affecting speed, also effects voltage. On pin 1 with speed at max, voltage is 4.5-5.56. with speed all the way down, it is 3.2-6.0, and changes faster. same thing with the Base.
As for the delay pot, the minimum is about 300 milliseconds, max is about 1 second, and slightly distorted. Feedback start to self oscillate about halfway up.
I replaced to 2339 chip, with no effect.
Quote from: slacker on May 28, 2009, 08:12:00 AM
The CD4066 or CD4016 shouldn't be hard to find, I would think almost any electronics store would have them and there's plenty of places to buy them online. The place you are buying the PT2399 from will probably have them, Smallbear and Banzai definitely do.
If you really can't find any in theory you could change the pedal to use the stomp switch to instead of the CD4066, I can draw a modified schematic if you like. You might get problems with switch pop though.
Or you could use fets to do the switching instead, I haven't tried that though.
hi i think ill build it true bypass, since i have no idea how to make the fet shifting and i a future when i get my hands on a CD4066 ill build in the tails feature.
and the PT2399 i got when i mail ordered for some trans and switches, they send me 4 of them and i never ordered any ;D lucky me.
i dont order very often, i have to save up, and i live in chile so shipping is expensive, and components are expensive in comparision to your standards.
Quote from: svstee on May 29, 2009, 05:33:47 PM
It appears mod depth has NO affect on the voltage of either pin 1 of the LFO opamp or the Base of the transistor. speed however, in addition to affecting speed, also effects voltage. On pin 1 with speed at max, voltage is 4.5-5.56. with speed all the way down, it is 3.2-6.0, and changes faster. same thing with the Base.
The voltages on pin 1 of the LFO opamp look correct. If the mod depth pot isn't having any effect on the voltage on the base of the transistor It sounds like the mod depth pot isn't wired correctly or you have a bad pot. When the mod depth pot is turned all the way down you should have 0 volts on the base of the transistor. Double check that the CCW lug of the mod depth pot is connected to ground.
IT WORKS! I did not have the depth ccw hooked to anything :icon_redface:
I really like the chorus on this thing, the vibrato is a bit extreme for my tastes, and the way they can be combined with delay is great...
Cool, glad you got it working. With the depth pot not connected to ground the voltage on the base of the transistor would be too high, permanently turning the transistor off so that's why there was no modulation.
If the modulation is too extreme you can reduce it by making the 240k resistor before the mod depth pot bigger.
Good to know.
Thanks a lot for all your help with the debugging, and for coming up with the project in the first place. You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.
I just built this, but it didn't work. Loads of noise, and 10% guitar sound. No delay at all. I've checked all the solderings and I've got all the parts right. Any ideas?
BTW: I use the vero layout I found somewhere here, is there a new and corrected ( if it was wrong)?
Not even the LED lit up!
if the led didn't light up, first think i would suspect is a bad/blown 4066 chip. That could also cause the other problems...
ok thanks, I'll switch it for a new one.
If that doesn't work I'll go through the voltages.
Not familiar with debugging digital circuits though...
I guess I'll find what I'm looking for if I backtrack the posts
voltages are on page 4 of the thread.
ok, so I put in new chips, I switched the 2399 aswell, and now I at least get an echo to the noise. So it getting better. The tail/boss-switch is working fine, but the bypass has no effect ( that I can hear). It oscillates like crazy at high feedback, so I know I've done something right at least ...
Still no light, still no guitarsignal, still loads of noise and hum
Im getting very strange voltages but all the parts seem correct.
f.eks the LED+ 0,34V (4066 pin 13)
The PT2399 pin 7 and 8 are 4,5V!!!!) all the other vary with about 0.1V
Any ideas at all???
Now I get a clean signal through, but the delays are heavily distorted and controlled by the feedback-pot
Well, after spending some quality time with it I really feel I owe Ian another big thumbs up. This thing is really GREAT! The interaction between the controls is amazing, I really don't need much else on my board for modulation. The chorus, slapback echo, vibrato and delay are all superior to anything on my board now. Keep up the great work!
hi !
my echobase doesn't work!!!
i've got dry sound when the pedal is in and out, the led works
i change all the IC's, i check everythings but...
so there is some pictures, if you see something wrong!
(http://exterminatingangels.free.fr/ebase/01.jpg)
(http://exterminatingangels.free.fr/ebase/02.jpg)
(http://exterminatingangels.free.fr/ebase/03.jpg)
(http://exterminatingangels.free.fr/ebase/04.jpg)
(http://exterminatingangels.free.fr/ebase/05.jpg)
(http://exterminatingangels.free.fr/ebase/06.jpg)
I just made a second Echo Base. For this one, I decided to use a 1Meg linear pot for the delay time.
Haven't timed it yet, but at maximum I'd say this gives you around 10 second long delays. Of course, there is a fair amount of noise and distortion/bit crushing going on at this setting, but for my purposes it's quite fun. I stuck a lowpass filter after it. It's a bit more lo-fi than the Lo-Fi Loop Junky, and not as much time, but it has one excellent feature that no other lofi looper has - overdubs.
It sounds the same as my other one at short delay settings.
Unsurprisingly, high notes are useless here because you have to filter them out to filter out the noise, but for you guitar guys, the low end of the neck is reproduced reasonably well. The lowest octave of my bass doesn't come through so well at these long times; I think the low notes are creating too much distortion to be heard clearly.
So, overall, a very fun mod. If you're into weird stuff, give it a shot. It kind of makes the Echo Base into a whole new pedal - it was already an analog-ish digital delay, chorus, and vibrato, but now it's a lofi looper.
And now a question: I find the Mod depth and speed knobs to be hard to pin down. It seems that there's only a narrow area where the knobs do anything, which shifts around depending on other settings, and once you hit that area, you're immediately in Skronkville. Does anybody else find this to be the case? Any thoughts on how to make the Mod section a little more predictable?
Also, since people are using it to do chorus and vibrato, it might be nice to turn the delay volume control into a mix control, so you can have just the vibrato without the clean if you want. I don't have time right now to draw this up, but I think it would be more useful than the way it's currently set up.
EDIT: Don't try this yet! May be bad. See below.
So, after typing the above, I decided to go play with it some more, and find out the actual maximum time.
Now I have no delaying going on. Could I have killed my PT2399 by asking it to delay this long? I have more of them, but if the chip can't handle this, I don't want to keep frying them.
Is there any reason that underclocking the 2399 would kill it?
Edit: Well, it's not dead, because I turned it back on and it worked for a bit, then stopped again. Hmm, what's going on here?
The previous post made me wonder, would there be a way to add another footswitch and bypass the delay signal only and use the unit as a chorus pedal or vibrato only pedal?
You mean bypass the clean signal only?
If so, check out the 10k resistor that's attached to pin 1 of the upper right TL072 (assuming you're using the perf/PCB layout). I'm pretty sure you could use an SPST stomp to connect/disconnect that junction between the R and pin 1. This would still let the input go to the delay, and the delay to the output, but kill the dry signal.
No, I mean bypass the actual repeats and have only the mods.
Ah, well, that's not possible, because the modulation is the delay. You see, the vibrato is not just vibrato tacked onto delay. The vibrato is created by changing the delay time. By playing back the delay slower than you recorded it, the pitch goes down, and by playing it back faster than you recorded it, the pitch goes up. So there is no vibrato without delay.
You should be able to turn the delay time and repeats down all the way, and turn the mod depth low, and it should sound only like vibrato, without a noticeable delay between playing and hearing.
The only way I can think of off the top of my head to accomplish that would be to switch between sets of pots, either mechanically (4pdt?) or with some kind of relay setup. You would need to switch between delay time and modulation depth at minimum. I've thought about it, but it means too many pots for me.
Quote from: Taylor on June 15, 2009, 10:33:32 PM
And now a question: I find the Mod depth and speed knobs to be hard to pin down. It seems that there's only a narrow area where the knobs do anything, which shifts around depending on other settings, and once you hit that area, you're immediately in Skronkville.
The speed pot shouldn't be affected by other settings, the mod depth will be affected by the delay time, there's nothing you can do about that though.
It might just be that the controls have too much range for you, when I built it I deliberately made it so the pots could produce stupidly extreme sounds as well as useful ones, I figured this was better than limiting the pedal to more subtle modulations, when some people might like the madness.
If you want to tame the modulation depth then make the 240k resistor before the mod depth pot bigger. You'll have to experiment with values but hopefully that will give the pot more of a useful range. For the mod speed if you want the fastest speeds to be a bit slower then make the 27k resistor after the speed pot bigger, and if you want the less of a range overall make the speed pot smaller.
Quote
Also, since people are using it to do chorus and vibrato, it might be nice to turn the delay volume control into a mix control, so you can have just the vibrato without the clean if you want. I don't have time right now to draw this up, but I think it would be more useful than the way it's currently set up.
Someone has done this, there's a schematic somewhere in this thread. You have to go true bypass and lose the delay tails though. If you want to keep those you'd have to redesign the electronic switching.
Cool mod by the way. I don't think you can damage the PT2399 by underclocking it I seem to remember mine locking up sometimes when I tried it and it wouldn't work again until you pulled the power.
Quote from: jimosity on June 15, 2009, 11:31:29 PM
The previous post made me wonder, would there be a way to add another footswitch and bypass the delay signal only and use the unit as a chorus pedal or vibrato only pedal?
Simple way is have a switch that shorts out the delay time pot. That will set the pedal to the shortest delay time which will give the chorus/vibrato effect. This might not work too well in practice though, because the settings of the rest of the pots that sounds good for chorus might not work too well for delay.
Like Taylor said the modulation isn't a separate effect it's just sweeping the delay time, just like grabbing the delay time pot and turning it back and forth.
Quote from: exterm on June 15, 2009, 11:58:31 AM
hi !
my echobase doesn't work!!!
i've got dry sound when the pedal is in and out, the led works
i change all the IC's, i check everythings but...
so there is some pictures, if you see something wrong!
Welcome to the forum :)
I can't see anything wrong looking at the pictures. If you are getting no delay at all then it probably means the sound isn't getting from the PT2399 to the output. I would check the wiring of all the pots especially the level pot.
If that doesn't solve the problem then make an audio probe, have a look here for instructions http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/index.php?title=Debugging (http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/index.php?title=Debugging). Then use this to check for signal around the PT2399, that will hopefully show where the problem is.
Could be a way for this pedal to add a "Repeats Decay Pot", to control how the repeats decay?... If I wanted only 3 repeats, or 2 repeats at the same output level (or very closer)...
I think this would be a great mod, but I can't figure out how..
Quote from: slacker on June 16, 2009, 01:10:03 PM
Welcome to the forum :)
I can't see anything wrong looking at the pictures. If you are getting no delay at all then it probably means the sound isn't getting from the PT2399 to the output. I would check the wiring of all the pots especially the level pot.
If that doesn't solve the problem then make an audio probe, have a look here for instructions http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/index.php?title=Debugging (http://www.diystompboxes.com/wiki/index.php?title=Debugging). Then use this to check for signal around the PT2399, that will hopefully show where the problem is.
thanks! sorry for my poor english, so...
i check the trannies they 're ok, they "flip" with the switch.
i've got delay on the PT2399 (pin 13 if i remember!)
i've got time this afternoon, i will spend some time on it...
wait and see
Quote from: Slade on June 16, 2009, 01:19:59 PM
Could be a way for this pedal to add a "Repeats Decay Pot", to control how the repeats decay?... If I wanted only 3 repeats, or 2 repeats at the same output level (or very closer)...
I think this would be a great mod, but I can't figure out how..
i dont think thats possible with a single delay chip, when you get sound at the delay output you cant know how many times it has been "feedbacked"
you can have 2 (3,4...) single repeats using 2 (3,4,...) chips with no feedback, taping each ones output
Quote from: exterm on June 17, 2009, 06:16:41 AM
thanks! sorry for my poor english, so...
Your English is fine :)
Quote
i've got delay on the PT2399 (pin 13 if i remember!)
That's good that means the signal is reaching the PT2399. See if you have delay on pin 14, if you have check pin 10 of the CD4066 then pin 11 and on all the pins of the level pot. If the signal stops at any of these the problem is somewhere in that area.
thanks slacker, i will check this soon! in july...!
i want this working :icon_evil:
So, probably about a year later, I finished my echo base :) I've made a pact to start finishing things instead of ordering all the parts, soldering 4 resistors then starting something new :icon_mrgreen:
Besides the 5 volt reg and 4001 not fitting in my sockets (then a huge PITA to get the solder out), it went pretty swell. The sound is there, but I'm still getting around the modulation part (never had a modulated delay). Anybody know any good settings off hand?
The only actual problem I'm having is the LED doesn't work (of all things). I'm thinking I need to change the LED resistor, as the LEDs I have are beyond superbright.. you have to squint to look at my pedalboard :P
Anyway, cheers slacker, this is fantastic. I'm a bit bummed the PTAP couldn't get sorted out for this project. I don't think the delays are really long enough now that I've played around with it.
Oh well.
Fantastic Slacker. You win in my book :)
Quote from: mth5044 on June 20, 2009, 10:46:39 PM
... I'm a bit bummed the PTAP couldn't get sorted out for this project....
I've been getting quite a few emails about this recently so I finally sat down and built the LFO section and patched it in to my delay using a 50k analog pot. After playing around for a while (it does sound great, wish I had done this earlier :) ) I took some measurements.
1. I should have noticed this earlier from looking at the schematic and earlier posts in the thread, but the LFO is DC coupled into the delay control line. This means that the "Depth" pot & PNP transistor not only mix in modulation, they mix in what is effectively a DC offset as well which will in turn increase the base delay time. This is trouble since the higher the depth setting the further off the tap-tempo will be.
2. The PNP transistor / 39k resistor combo doesn't behave like an ideal resistor. With the depth control at minimum, which is the worst case current draw and the best chance the PTAP has for being able to calculate the delay time, there will be about 0.6V at the collector. If my arithmetic is correct then across the full sweep of the 50k delay pot the "effective resistance" due to the 0.6V can be anywhere from ~16k down to less than a hundred ohms. However the collector voltage itself varies with the delay pot setting in a non-linear fashion since it is dependent on the current flowing through it, not to mention the particular transistor being used.
So it looks like all the theory points to the Echo Base and the PTAP not being a good match. (Note that these problems are not present in an AC-coupled LFO scheme such as with the Magnus Modulus.)
However I still wanted to know what it would actually be like to play with the LFO & PTAP together. I put a 1k resistor in series with the digital pot and gave it a shot.
First I tried using no modulation and manual control of the delay. So far so good. I then dialed in a really nice chorus with the delay pot at min (plus the 1k). So we can get a chorus sound without breaking the digital pot at least. Finally I tried tap-tempo with the modulation off. As expected the timing was off due to the varying effective resistance of the transistor. I re-programmed it to try and take this in to account and it was much better, however there was still enough variation that I wouldn't call it a success.
In the end I think there are too many compromises to a stock Echo Base + PTAP. I did end up converting the LFO to be AC-coupled by mimicking the Magnus Modulus and everything worked that way just fine. So if you're thinking of adding a PTAP to and Echo Base I would first make this modification and make sure you're still happy with the sound and the effect of the controls as it is slightly different. Another possibility, if you don't mind having another control, would be to have a "modulation on/off" switch that swapped the PNP/39k with a 1k.
Hello,
I believe this echo base will be the first pedal I will build. I have made a parts list for myself, and decided to share it with everyone else so that its a bit easier for newcomers like me.
I believe I am not missing anything. All of these parts can be had from smallbear electric, although I'm buying a few parts from pedalpartsplus to save money :P.
echo base parts list:
(quantity and part name)
IC's:
2 tl072
1 pt2399
1 cd4066
diodes:
1 1N4001
2 1N4148
resistors:
3 2.2M
10 10K
5 1.5M
3 220K
1 10M
1 20K (or 2 20k resistors for people who don't want to change how fast it oscillates)
2 47K
1 39K
3 220
1 240K
1 27K
1 680K
1 100K
1 100K (this is for switching one of the 20k resistors to 100k, so that you get more usable feedback control)
NPN/general purpose amplifier?:
1 2N5089
1 BC560 <-- replace with a 2N5087 because I couldn't find it at pedalpartsplus or smallbearelec (this chip has to go in reverse)
capacitors:
12 100nF
2 47nF
2 1nF
2 220nF
1 4.7nF
2 15nF
1 470pF
1 1uF
3 47uF
1 100uF
Potentiometers
3 100k Log
1 1M Lin
1 47K Lin
1 25K Lin (if you want to do the wave shape mod)
OTHER
1 DPDT Foot Switch
1 BB case (or similar)
2 Mono 1/4" Jacks
1 DC Power jack
1 9V Battery clip
1 LED
and the necessary wire.
That should be everything, i used http://chawk.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf to make this parts list.
If I'm missing anything, let me know.
And if you guys have any tips for first time pedal builders, let me know :)
What kind of board are you building on? An Echo Base on perf or vero is a pretty ambitious first project. I would use a PCB if you can.
Quote from: Taylor on June 23, 2009, 04:24:19 PM
What kind of board are you building on? An Echo Base on perf or vero is a pretty ambitious first project. I would use a PCB if you can.
Definitely on the PCB. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to pull this off. I'll be building it with a friend (making two), and I plan on ordering the parts pretty soon. I live in Mexico, so it might take awhile before I go to the USA to pick up the parts though. Hopefully won't be too long.
Quote from: decc on June 23, 2009, 03:25:35 AM
Quote from: mth5044 on June 20, 2009, 10:46:39 PM
... I'm a bit bummed the PTAP couldn't get sorted out for this project....
I've been getting quite a few emails about this recently so I finally sat down and built the LFO section and patched it in to my delay using a 50k analog pot. After playing around for a while (it does sound great, wish I had done this earlier :) ) I took some measurements.
Well I'm glad I could be one of those emails :) That's fantastic that you went through all the trouble to see if it would work (and I didn't have to :P lol jk(ish)), but it's too bad it didn't work. I've got mine closed to all boxed up, so I'm not really up to doing the mods to get it close to working, but I do have a question for you, if slacker doesn't mind a slighty OT post. I've been thinking about making a digital binson echorec 'clone' by using 4 pt2399 chips in series to simulate 4 different tape heads. Could the PTAP be used to and significant use in this project? 4 tap tempos for 4 chips would be a little out of control, but could there be a way to get it to control all 4? Thanks :)
No reason there couldn't be a "PTAP4" for this as the code scales just fine. We would need a second dual digital pot and move to the next size up micro-controller for the additional 2 analog pots and second chip-select line. (I think the ATtiny48/88 is next at in 28-pin package. We could also sacrifice an LED output and stay with the 14-pin DIP depending on how you want the serial/parallel arrangement to work.)
There's a separate PTAP thread (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=75740.0) here if you want to discuss this further. Don't want to de-rail the Echo Base discussion or anything.
hi everybody
i've finally find some time to work on my non working echo base! (thanks Slacker!)
so i find one error on a strap and the delay works fine!!!, but the modulation is not working :icon_evil:
the "mod depth" pot add some delay time, (the time pot too!), and "mod speed" pot do nothing.
can you give me some advice... i'm lttle bit lost héhé
thanks
can anyone help with a small problem i have, i wired it all up and it worked fine i came to check again the next day to carry on doing some more and the mod speed pot doesnt seem to be doing anything at all, everything else is fine, thanks
I don't really have any idea, but do you have the depth pot up at all? I don't think the speed pot will do anything if you don't have any depth on.. dunno though. Might want to check out the mod IC too.
Quote from: ashaxx on June 29, 2009, 07:16:37 PM
can anyone help with a small problem i have, i wired it all up and it worked fine i came to check again the next day to carry on doing some more and the mod speed pot doesnt seem to be doing anything at all, everything else is fine, thanks
that's the same problem when first build this pedal, don't use 9v battery coz it easily drain your battery
use power supply 9v dc regulator and double check your layout compare it to schematic.
tried it with mains supply and it worked must just be batteries dont last very long with it or something, thanks
Yeah thats a known problem with the design, the LFO stops working once the battery voltage starts to drop. I don't use batteries so I didn't find the problem when was designing it.
It's caused because the LFO bias voltage comes from the 5 volt regulator so when the battery is new the bias voltage is about half the supply voltage so it works properly. As the supply voltage drops the bias voltage stays at 5 volts so it gets too high compared with the supply voltage and the LFO stops working.
It's possible to modify the design to make the LFO work on lower battery voltages, but by the time the LFO stops working the battery is probably already pretty much dead anyway. Think of it as a low battery indicator ;D
hi everybody
how can i add a led pulsing in time with the delay time?
Quote from: beatnik on July 02, 2009, 11:11:17 AM
hi everybody
how can i add a led pulsing in time with the delay time?
you can't.
I'm pretty sure someone in this thread made an add-on board to do just that. Was it ruled out as not working properly or something? This is what I don't like about these long threads - it's so hard to find individual topics that cropped up without reading every page again.
Yes you can.
TEH CLICKY (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg604091#msg604091)
Basically, it counts up to 684,000 and then resets. The left-hand chip counts to 1,000 and resets, sending a clock pulse to the right-hand one every time it does so. The right hand chip counts up to 684 and then resets. The number comes from a bit of arithmetic applied to the table in the PT2399 datasheet.
When the output at D10 goes high, the LED flashes briefly.
Thanks for posting that Mike, I had a look but I couldn't find it.
I believe Auke Haarsma has done a version using a PIC instead.
Hi.
I've been trying to build this on perf board. I found some incorrect voltages on U1 and U3. When looking closer to the layout and schematic I'm getting confused. For example, in the layout there is a 2M2 (R3) between pin 6 and 7 on U3. But in the schematic there is a 10k in this position. There are more of these "errors" around U3. I can't say if it's errors or if I'm reading it the wrong way.
Can someone explain?
I've been trying to look at this, the datasheet for the PT2399 and a few other PT2399 based echo/delays trying to figure out what is needed to get it operating in its most bare form. What is the absolute minimum to get it to echo/delay. I want to try to start from there and see if I can come up with anything neat off of it. Just need to get some free time together to really figure out how the chip works.
Quote from: BootCut on July 28, 2009, 07:39:13 PM
Hi.
I've been trying to build this on perf board. I found some incorrect voltages on U1 and U3. When looking closer to the layout and schematic I'm getting confused. For example, in the layout there is a 2M2 (R3) between pin 6 and 7 on U3. But in the schematic there is a 10k in this position. There are more of these "errors" around U3. I can't say if it's errors or if I'm reading it the wrong way.
Can someone explain?
The pin numbering on the schematic is wrong compared to the vero layout, not sure about other layouts. U3A with the 2M2 resistors should be labelled with pins 5,6 and 7. U3B with the 10k resistors should be labelled with pins 1,2 and 3. I'll correct the schematic.
Quote from: doitle on July 28, 2009, 08:02:11 PM
I've been trying to look at this, the datasheet for the PT2399 and a few other PT2399 based echo/delays trying to figure out what is needed to get it operating in its most bare form. What is the absolute minimum to get it to echo/delay.
The datasheet has schematics that show the basic configuration, or look at the original Rebote delay that's pretty much straight from the datasheet with some buffers added. R.G also has a very basic circuit over at geofex.
Look for the midfi clari(not) schematic, that is the most minimal parts usage of the pt2399 I've seen as of yet.
FOUND IT: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=74294.0
Yeah heading close to the clari-not is a bit more what I mean. I want to maybe take that reference design and only keep what is absolutely necessary to get it to function to see how spartan it can be. Then build off of that.
Quote from: slacker on July 29, 2009, 07:47:07 AM
Quote from: BootCut on July 28, 2009, 07:39:13 PM
Hi.
I've been trying to build this on perf board. I found some incorrect voltages on U1 and U3. When looking closer to the layout and schematic I'm getting confused. For example, in the layout there is a 2M2 (R3) between pin 6 and 7 on U3. But in the schematic there is a 10k in this position. There are more of these "errors" around U3. I can't say if it's errors or if I'm reading it the wrong way.
Can someone explain?
The pin numbering on the schematic is wrong compared to the vero layout, not sure about other layouts. U3A with the 2M2 resistors should be labelled with pins 5,6 and 7. U3B with the 10k resistors should be labelled with pins 1,2 and 3. I'll correct the schematic.
But even if I compare the perf board layout to the PCB layout by "anonymusfacelesscoward" I can't get it right.
I have put numbers on the pins in the pictures below. That is how I believe it should be, based on the connection between pin 3 and 5. In the perf board layout, R3 is connected between pin 6 and 7. R3 is a 2M2 resistor. In the PCB layout there is a 10k between those pins. Are the values in perf board BOM wrong?
(http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4458/u3perf.th.jpg) (http://img248.imageshack.us/i/u3perf.jpg/)
(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6118/u3pcb.th.jpg) (http://img406.imageshack.us/i/u3pcb.jpg/)
Ok I see what you mean now, the PCB layout follows the schematic, I didn't realise that. Sorry if what I said before confused things.
The PCB and vero layout are both correct though. The TL072 is a dual opamp, it's 2 opamps in one package, pins 1,2 and 3 are one opamp and pins 5,6 and 7 are the other one. They are both the same so it doesn't matter if you swap them over.
Ok, thanks slacker! I found an error on my board causing the wrong voltages. But it still doesn't work. It is like it's always in the bypass mode. The signal is going thru, but there is no effect no matter how I swith the bypass.
These are the voltages:
PT2399
1. 5v -> 5
2. 2.5v -> 2.5
3. 0 -> 0
4. 0 -> 0
5. 2.89v -> 2.87
6. 2.5v -> 2.4
7. 0.5v -> 0.8
8. 0.5 v -> 0.8
9 - 16 all 2.5v -> 2.5
4066
1. 4.6v -> 4.7
2. 4.6v -> 4.7
3. 0.4v -> 1.4
4. 0.4v -> 1.5
5. 0 -> 0
6. 0.45v off 4.5v on -> 0.79 off 4.4 on
7. 0 -> 0
8. 9v -> 9
9. 3v on 0.32 off -> 1.7 on 0.38 off
10. 4.6v -> 1.5 off 4.4 on (should it be different when off?)
11. 4.6v -> 4.4
12. 8.5 on -> 8.7
13. 8.5 on -> 8.7
14. 9 -> 9
When the effect is off depending on which position the tails/Boss switch is in either pin 12 or 13 will be 1.25v the other will be about 8.7 volts.
The TL072 voltages are
U3 top left of vero
1. 5v -> 5
2. 5v -> 5
3. 5v -> 5
4. 0 -> 0
5. 5v -> 5
6. 5v -> 5
7. 5v -> 5
8. 9v -> 9
U1 bottom left of vero, this is the LFO
1. changes -> changes
2. 5v -> 5
3. 5v -> 5
4. 0.8v -> 0.8
5. changes -> changes
6. 5v -> 5
7. changes -> changes
8. 8v -> 8
The voltages on the 5089 should change depending on the position of the bypass switch.
E. 0 -> 0
B. 0.63v off 0 on -> 0.61 off 0 on
C. 0.89v off 8.5v on -> 0.82 off 8.6 on
When I'm doing audio probe testing on the PT2399 there is no signal at all, except from pin 11 with a loud noise and hiss.
I can follow the input signal on the outputs on U3A and U3B. But I can't find it anywhere else on the board.
Any ideas of what could be wrong?
Thanks!
cant find a 47k linear pot at my local electronic store. any replacement suggestions
50k linear?
Or you could use a 100k pot w/ a 100k resistor across it. That would give you a slightly reverse-log 50k pot.
Quote from: waheng19 on August 17, 2009, 10:40:01 AM
cant find a 47k linear pot at my local electronic store. any replacement suggestions
Who the hell specified a 47k pot? ;D ;D That must be a joke. ::)
Quote from: WhenBoredomPeaks on August 17, 2009, 11:22:30 AM
Who the hell specified a 47k pot? ;D ;D That must be a joke. ::)
I did ;D it's a standard pot value, or it is my part of the world anyway. I can't help it if you crazy foreigners insist on using 50k instead.
we'll thanks for the info guys ???
Sorry :) A 50k linear pot will work fine.
Ian, is it normal that with a standard echo base with the extra time mod, that you have to set the delay to longer delays when plugging in the power?
If I do not set it to long delays when plugging it in, I get no delay sound whatsoever. I have this problem with both echo bases that I have built.
Did you put a second 2399 to get extra time, or just a bigger time pot? I did the latter and mine acts very strangely. My stock one is fine, though.
I added the extra PT2399. The mod is somewhere around page ten in this thread, with the extra litte pcb.
I don't think you should have to set it before plugging in the power. I haven't looked at that mod schematic for a while though, I'll double check it later just in case there's an error somewhere.
Quote from: slacker on August 17, 2009, 11:57:52 AM
Quote from: WhenBoredomPeaks on August 17, 2009, 11:22:30 AM
Who the hell specified a 47k pot? ;D ;D That must be a joke. ::)
I did ;D it's a standard pot value, or it is my part of the world anyway. I can't help it if you crazy foreigners insist on using 50k instead.
England and their crazy imperial system. ::)
(j/k ;D)
Quote from: WhenBoredomPeaks on August 18, 2009, 08:11:57 AMEngland and their crazy imperial system. ::)
(j/k ;D)
That we're no longer allowed to use in public ... :icon_evil: ;D
Quote from: Valoosj on August 17, 2009, 06:41:52 PM
If I do not set it to long delays when plugging it in, I get no delay sound whatsoever. I have this problem with both echo bases that I have built.
I've had a look at the schematic and the only thing I can think of is that for some reason the 100R on pin 6 is too small a resistance and does something strange to the chip when it's powered on. I take it switching between short and long works once you've powered it up in long mode.
I'd try increasing the 100R to 1k and see if that solves the problem.
I can't help any more than that I'm afraid, I never built it, I think you're the only person who did :)
SemiOT, but is it possible to to keep the entire Rebote 2.5 intact, including the 1k resistor, and just flip the time pot from ground to the one end of the 39k resistor and at the same time, just connect the other end of the 39k from pin 4? Then flip the switch that cuts the time put from the 39k to ground, then disconnects pin 4 from the other end of the 39k?
And probably make it 38k?
The reason I ask is I have a project with two seperate pt2399 and would like to have one mod circuit switched between the two of them, and an off position. This would be done on a rotary of course. Is this viable?
Yeah that would work, you can do it even simpler than that though. You can leave the 39k and the emitter of the transistor connected to pin 4 of one of the PT2399s, and just switch the time pot between ground and the other end of the 39k.
Thanks Slacker, you are fantastic.
I have a question.
I am making an echobase-type pedal (not the same design), and I am wanting to add tails but without the digital switching mechanism. However, as soon as I disconnect the path between the buffer and the first PT2399 chip, the repeats go to maximum and clip. I can't seem to figure out why this is happening, and I am just wondering if you experienced the same situation while designing the echo base and have discovered a way to fix this.
It's got rebote 2.5 style filtering, if that helps you visualize it a little better.
I never noticed anything like that, but I designed mine with the switching in place pretty much from the start.
Using the Rebote 2.5 as an exmaple, I think the problem is probably caused by the fact that the 12k and 1uF cap after the buffer are connected to audio ground at pin 7 of the opamp. So the 12k resistor and "red" feedback resistor form a voltage divider, lowering the the volume of the repeats signal. If you just cut the connection, between the buffer and PT2399 you're removing the voltage divider effect which might cause the problem.
I'm not sure how you're doing the switching but if you're breaking the connection between the opamp and the 1uF cap, try putting a pulldown resistor before the cap. That way the resistance to ground will be constant, whether or not the buffer is connected. That will hopefully solve the problem.
Quote from: slacker on August 27, 2009, 03:30:58 PM
I never noticed anything like that, but I designed mine with the switching in place pretty much from the start.
Using the Rebote 2.5 as an exmaple, I think the problem is probably caused by the fact that the 12k and 1uF cap after the buffer are connected to audio ground at pin 7 of the opamp. So the 12k resistor and "red" feedback resistor form a voltage divider, lowering the the volume of the repeats signal. If you just cut the connection, between the buffer and PT2399 you're removing the voltage divider effect which might cause the problem.
I'm not sure how you're doing the switching but if you're breaking the connection between the opamp and the 1uF cap, try putting a pulldown resistor before the cap. That way the resistance to ground will be constant, whether or not the buffer is connected. That will hopefully solve the problem.
It's just a mechanical switch. Nothing fancy.
I feel like that (grounding the cap) was the first thing I tried when troubleshooting it (This thing has been on my breadboard for a long time, and I just haven't worked on it in a long time... can't remember too well what I did)
Well, no harm trying it again. Maybe I really haven't done it yet.
Regardless, thanks a ton for the reply.
Quote from: slacker on August 18, 2009, 01:15:35 PM
Quote from: Valoosj on August 17, 2009, 06:41:52 PM
If I do not set it to long delays when plugging it in, I get no delay sound whatsoever. I have this problem with both echo bases that I have built.
I've had a look at the schematic and the only thing I can think of is that for some reason the 100R on pin 6 is too small a resistance and does something strange to the chip when it's powered on. I take it switching between short and long works once you've powered it up in long mode.
I'd try increasing the 100R to 1k and see if that solves the problem.
I can't help any more than that I'm afraid, I never built it, I think you're the only person who did :)
Thanks Ian, it works just fine now.
cool, that was easy :)
Hi, long time reader, first time poster here. I read through the topic, including the discussion about integrating a tap tempo module, which is of particular interest to me. However, I understand that the Echo Base's modulation section doesn't get along well with tap tempo, and that a non-DC coupled one (like from the Magnus Modulus) would. Is that correct? Should I expect any other problems with it, or is it expected to work more or less seamlessly?
The reason I'm asking is I'm building a PT2399-based delay (the Rebote 2.5 circuit, as I already have a PCB for it), and I'm planning on adding tap tempo to it. It's my own design, though pretty similar to the PTAP (except using an LED/LDR combo instead of a digital potentiometer). After reading this topic, though, I'd like to add a modulation section to my delay as well, so now I'm trying to figure out the best way to do that.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Do you think an LED/LDR will be accurate enough to work for this application? Seems like you need precision that they don't have.
Welcome to the forum :)
The issue with the PTAP and the Echo Base is that the PTAP is calibrated assuming a resistance of 1k between pin 6 of the PT2399 and the digital pot. The transistor used for the modulation on the Echo Base basically throws the calibration out.
The other issue was the change in DC level on the transistor caused by the modulation, but this can be solved by added a capacitor between the output of the LFO and the mod level pot.
For an individual build I would think you could just calibrate your set up to take into account the resistance of the transistor and use the Echo Base method.
Thanks for the info, slacker!
I'm not sure I understand the calibration issue completely. The resistance is what determines the delay time, right? The transistor basically varies that resistance periodically, which provides the modulation. How does one calibrate for variable resistance?
Quote from: Taylor on September 18, 2009, 02:19:58 PMDo you think an LED/LDR will be accurate enough to work for this application? Seems like you need precision that they don't have.
Unless I'm mistaken, an LED/LDR will have virtually infinite precision, on account of being an analog device. A digital pot, on the other hand, has a finite set of values. It, too, is sufficient for this particular application - given a maximum delay time of 500ms, a digipot with 8-bit output has a precision of 2ms.
For what it's worth, I'm planning on driving the LED/LDR from the microcontroller's PWM output.
Quote from: Indrek on September 18, 2009, 08:29:41 PM
I'm not sure I understand the calibration issue completely. The resistance is what determines the delay time, right?
As I understand it, the PTAP is programmed so that it gives you the correct resistance for a particular delay time taking into account the 1k of resistance in series with the digital pot. If you change the value of the 1k resistor then you wont get the correct delay time. On the Echo Base the resistance of the transistor when the modulation is off will not be 1k so the PTAP won't work properly. I haven't tried it, but if the resistance of the transistor is less than 1k you could just put a resistor in series with it to make the total 1k, then the PTAP would work when the modulation was off. If the resistance is more than 1k you could adjust that as well by playing with the 39k resistor in parallel with the transistor, but that might mess up the modulation effect.
For your design you could just measure the resistance of the transistor with the modulation off and take that into account when programming your system. Or have some way of adjusting the total resistance to take into account variances from pedal to pedal, you'll probably have to do that anyway if you're using a LED/LDR combo.
Quote
How does one calibrate for variable resistance?
I don't think you need to really. If you're only adding small amounts of modulation then the timing should still be accurate enough. If you're adding larger amounts of modulation then you're not really likely to be bothered about any sort of accuracy, you probably just want the tap tempo to give a very rough delay time.
To be honest personally I can't see the point of tap tempo when using modulation.
QuoteQuote from: Taylor on September 18, 2009, 02:19:58 PMDo you think an LED/LDR will be accurate enough to work for this application? Seems like you need precision that they don't have.
Unless I'm mistaken, an LED/LDR will have virtually infinite precision, .
A LED/LDR is analogue but they might not be predictable enough in how they change resistance for you to be able to program the chip with any accuracy. Even if you can do that, the PWM output is digital anyway so you will only have what ever precision you can get from that.
Quote from: slacker on September 19, 2009, 07:01:40 AMI don't think you need to really. If you're only adding small amounts of modulation then the timing should still be accurate enough. If you're adding larger amounts of modulation then you're not really likely to be bothered about any sort of accuracy, you probably just want the tap tempo to give a very rough delay time.
My thoughts exactly. I'm planning on using only small amounts of modulation most of the time, plus even if the individual delays are a bit off, they're still centered around whatever the tempo is, so it shouldn't be a problem.
I think I'll even use trimpots for the mod depth and speed and preset them to fairly low values.
QuoteA LED/LDR is analogue but they might not be predictable enough in how they change resistance for you to be able to program the chip with any accuracy. Even if you can do that, the PWM output is digital anyway so you will only have what ever precision you can get from that.
True, though PWM outputs usually have at least as good resolution as digital pots, at least from what I've seen. Plus, I'm having a hard time finding a digipot with 50k resistance and decent resolution.
Anyone know the specs of the pot that PTAP uses?
Edit: found it. MCP41050. Unfortunately it isn't available where I live.
Ian, I have another situation for you.
After the first repeat, the next repeats become very quiet, no matter how I set the feedback and volume knob. Is there anything I can tweak to make the 2nd, 3rd, ... repeat the same volume as the 1st? My feedback resistor is now 20K, as I am using the extra time board. Maybe I should try increasing this one? Or wouldn't that solve the problem and just cause it to oscillate a lot sooner? (with the 100K the delay oscillates very easily)
Hello,
Anyone has a PCB for the true-bypassed version of this fabulous delay?
Thx!
Quote from: gigimarga on September 26, 2009, 01:56:16 PM
Hello,
Anyone has a PCB for the true-bypassed version of this fabulous delay?
Thx!
???
Quote from: Valoosj on September 25, 2009, 05:57:14 PM
Ian, I have another situation for you.
After the first repeat, the next repeats become very quiet, no matter how I set the feedback and volume knob. Is there anything I can tweak to make the 2nd, 3rd, ... repeat the same volume as the 1st? My feedback resistor is now 100K, as I am using the extra time board. Maybe I should try increasing this one? Or wouldn't that solve the problem and just cause it to oscillate a lot sooner? (with the 100K the delay oscillates very easily)
Made a mistake in my explanation. And I just replaced that 100K with a trimpot, but this resistor is not causing the issue that every repeat after the 1st one is too silent.
I really don't know what I can try now to fix this.
Quote from: Valoosj on September 25, 2009, 05:57:14 PM
After the first repeat, the next repeats become very quiet, no matter how I set the feedback and volume knob. Is there anything I can tweak to make the 2nd, 3rd, ... repeat the same volume as the 1st?
I guess this must be something to do with the extra time mod, because the original doesn't have this problem. I'll have a think about what the problem might be.
Quote from: gigimarga on September 26, 2009, 01:56:16 PM
Anyone has a PCB for the true-bypassed version of this fabulous delay?
You can build the true bypass version on the normal PCB, you just leave out the switching stuff. I could do a schematic showing which parts to remove if that will help.
You can also just build the normal version and leave out the boss/tails switch, that makes it "always on" then just wire it true bypass.
Thx a lot slacker!
I've built it normal and I like it a lot, but I'm looking for a smaller PCB, that's what I want a PCB without switching :)
Gigimarga, on one of the first pages there was somebody that fitted it into a 1590B (zvex type).
Quote from: Valoosj on September 29, 2009, 05:01:48 PM
Gigimarga, on one of the first pages there was somebody that fitted it into a 1590B (zvex type).
Thx Valoosj!
I looked almost on all pages and I didn't find any layout...only a picture of a PCB from Auke Haarsma...I will look again when I will be more fresh :)
I think it was Chawk with the smaller layout, but his pics are gone.
Quote from: Valoosj on September 30, 2009, 04:54:25 AM
I think it was Chawk with the smaller layout, but his pics are gone.
Thx a lot Valoosj!
I will try to find one...no hurry :)
Quote from: slacker on September 29, 2009, 04:04:51 PM
Quote from: Valoosj on September 25, 2009, 05:57:14 PM
After the first repeat, the next repeats become very quiet, no matter how I set the feedback and volume knob. Is there anything I can tweak to make the 2nd, 3rd, ... repeat the same volume as the 1st?
I guess this must be something to do with the extra time mod, because the original doesn't have this problem. I'll have a think about what the problem might be.
Just wondering if you have had the time to have a look at this problem :)
Hi,
Long time lurker, first time posting.
I wanted to say thanks to Slacker for sharing the Echo Base and also for all the debugging advice. I've just built an Echo Base using the Vero layout and this thread has been invaluable.
I love this pedal and the sounds that can be got from it.
I now plan to build another Echo Base with true bypass
Thanks again.
Sorry for my laziness in not reading the post. Is there a version without the mod section but with a nice tone control on the repeats?
Quote from: FlyingZ on October 07, 2009, 12:52:41 PM
Sorry for my laziness in not reading the post. Is there a version without the mod section but with a nice tone control on the repeats?
I'm just working on a TBP version of the pedal with a repeats tone control, something like a "Echo-based Rebote".
I just need to know what should I do with the coupling capacitors of the circuit when taking out the CD4066. I'm doing it by comparing the echobase with the rebote 2.5 schematic, and the coupling capacitors are the only ones that get me in doubt. I'd appreciate some help with this. Thanks!
Anybody know what would cause the depth pot to act as a minimum delay time pot ??? It seems like the depth kind of changes over the sweep, but it's hard to tell. Unfortuantly, I don't have my DMM with me (forgot the box it was in :'() and I haven't replaced any parts yet because I'm not sure what to start with. I'm pretty sure nothing is shorting out with it though, as I've had everything out of the box and it still has the same effect.
Any ideas I can try before putting on my surgical mask?
Thanks :)
Tried the 10uF cap on the depth pot and it does wonders.
Strange part is though, that in the first enclosure I had this in I didn't notice it. Oh well. Love it.
Hello everybody!
This layout is correct or is there a mistake? I can build the Eco Base this file?
http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf
Thanks everyone
Please answer me!!!
Quote from: lucasventura on October 26, 2009, 03:03:02 PM
Please answer me!!!
Quote from: DWBH on August 06, 2008, 06:58:55 PM
Is the schematic on the first page 100% correct?
Quote from: slacker on August 07, 2008, 01:08:43 PM
Yes, it's correct. The version in my layout gallery had a few pin numbering errors on the 2 opamps but I've corrected that now as well.
read the topic, it's only 37 pages ;)
Cheers
Quick question (for anyone): Say I wanted to run several Echo Bases in parallel (for instance, if I was trying to simulate a tape delay...); could I use one LFO and mod depth pot (as shown on the schem) to drive multiple BC560s without any resistance changes, or would I have to make some sort of buffered splitter for the LFO signal?
Additionally, I know I've seen this question elsewhere, but my search-fu is weak: I should be ok with running multiple pt2399s off the same 5v regulator, correct? Just trying to pare down my parts count.
Major Slacker! First, I would like to congratulate you for the project that has impacted the world: the Echo Base. You are very intelligent. I would love to have the privilege to be able to have all this capacity. How do you prove to be a very thoughtful guy with the staff of the forum, I would like to know how you do to separate and understand the filters used by many pedals. Let me explain myself better. I've tried to design a pedal. But my greatest difficulty is knowing how to design filters. For example, in circuits
as its the beginning of the circuit has a low-pass filter, correct me if I'm wrong. Then I always get doubts cruel taking my night's sleep (shuhaush). How often the filter lets the guitar's signal pass, with signal fidelity, which filter to use and why to use?
Anyway, I'm your fan same guy. I would like you to recommend me, please, a bibliography or material on the Internet. The addresses on the internet that you wont to use to design the fantastic Echo Base.
Please help me Slacker. Sorry to bother you.
Luke Ventura
Sorry to bug you with this actually, but i'm really interesting in building this pedal.
but i just started and i have no idea how to wire up all the pots and the 3pdt switch.
could someone please show me using Aron's stripboard scheme?
thnx in advance.
-Kc
ok, going to finally get into building this puppy, but would love to have a wet/dry blend option. has anyone done a layout incorporating that? been trawling through this mammoth thread but can't see any such thing yet. a switch to kill the dry signal, or a blend pot woud be amazing.
many thanks
I just finished building this project yesterday, and I must say, this is a very awesome effect!!! I mostly just wanted to say thank you to all who were involved with creating and then tweaking this awesome sounding circuit. so......
THANK YOU!!! ;D
-Wade
Hi guys, i've finished the Echo Base, and it works good... except for the Feedback control.
When i start to control the feeback, the delay tails are regulated well, but it goes soon in loop (at about 1/3 of the total regulation range) and produces just noise with an increase of volume that dies only if I cut off the feedback with the pot.
This happens also if I do not play any note with the guitar... it goes in loop just controlling the feedback pot over.
i hope my english will help you to understand my problem... if not, i can post an audio sample of the problem ;D
If you change the 20k resistor on the wiper of the feedback control to something more like 100k-150k you'll get better control before it starts to self oscillate. I changed mine to a 150k and it doesn't start to self oscillate until the control is at the max setting. This works good for me.
I hope this helps!
Compuwade, thanks for your reply.
With your help now the feedback works well (with a resistor of 200k about, taken with a trimmer of 220k max), but now I've the same problem when I set at the max value both the mod-speed and time pots.
Can I solve the problem as the feedback, replacing some resistor?
...but what I think is: why I must change those resistor if other people don't do it? perhaps there's a problem with the circuit?
Thank you so much!
Sorry guys, i made a little bit of confusion with pots in the last post.
The problem is with TIME and mod.DEPTH: when time is at the max control range, as I control the depth it starts to self oscillate, at about 1/10 of the pot's total range (so i couldn't hear the tremolo effect very clear).
I think I can solve the problem as the feedback, changing the 220R resistor with a trimmer of more resistance (about 100k?)
... what do you think?
I haven't had this problem, so I really can't help. I would start by making sure all the resistors are the proper value and that all the solder joints are connected properly. It could be that you have a few components soldered wrong.
I don't know what to do... ???
I've checked all the components, all the solders, all the wires, all the pots, all the values... it seems to be ok, I cant' understand where's is the problem.
I tried to put a trimmer after the 270k but the problem is still there.
Here you can download a little sample I've made. At about 30s you could hear the oscillations.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BBJ52C6W (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=BBJ52C6W)
For some reason I can't download the file. If you could post the solder side of your board that would be helpful.
here it is: package .rar with photo and the layout i used.
I hope you will easily understand what I've done, if not... ask me :D
thank you
http://www.filefront.com/15038799/echo%20base.rar
I finished mine, but I can't make it work >:( . The only thig that it do is a little signal with low volume and no delay.
I look to the traces a long time and I test the IC's and transistors:
CD4066 pedal ON__________________4066 pedal OFF
Originals__________ Mine__________Originals____________Mine
1. 4.6v____________2.89v____________4.6v_____________2.89v
2. 4.6v____________2.89v____________4.6v_____________2.89v
3. 0.4v____________0v______________0.4v ______________0v
4. 0.4v____________0v______________0.4v_______________0v
5. 0v______________0v______________0 v _______________0v
6.4.5v____________0.78v____________0.45v _____________0.15v
7. 0_______________0________________0 ____________ 0
8. 9v____________1.89v_____________9v _____________ 8.64v
9. 3v____________1.82v____________0.32v _______________ 0
10. 4.6v__________2.89v____________4.6v______________2.02v
11. 4.6v__________2.89v____________4.6v______________2.04v
12. 8.5v_________ 8.35v ____________1.25v____________1.92v
13. 8.5v__________7.25v____________1.25v ____________7.14v
14. 9v____________8.84v____________9v ______________ 8.71v
U3 (NE5532):
Originals_________Mine
1. 5v ____________5.53v
2. 5v____________4.47v
3. 5v____________5.02v
4. 0_____________0
5. 5v____________5.02v
6. 5v____________5.02v
7. 5v____________4.52v
8. 9v____________8.82v
U1 (NE5532) LFO:
Originals____________Mine
1. changes____________5.25v
2. 5v________________5.02v
3. 5v _______________ 5.02v
4. 0.8v ______________1.23v
5. changes ___________4.48v
6. 5v ________________5.02v
7. changes____________5.02v
8. 8v_________________7.53v
PT2399
Originals____________Mine
1. 5v________________5.02v
2. 2.5v______________2.5v
3. 0 _________________0
4. 0 ________________0
5. 2.89v ____________3.09v
6. 2.5v ____________2.5v
7. 0.5v ____________changes between 2.8 & 2.9v
8. 0.5 v____________changes between 2.9 & 3v
9 to 16.all 2.5v_______2.5v all
Transistors:
bypass: I use 2N3904 replace to 2N5089. ON: E. 0v B. 0v C. 8.3v.
OFF: E. 0v B. 0.66v C. 1.64v.
BC560: ON & OFF: E. 0v B. 1.97v C. 2.5v.
Pictures:
(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/9184/img0085y.th.jpg) (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/img0085y.jpg/)
(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/8012/img0086g.th.jpg) (http://img130.imageshack.us/i/img0086g.jpg/)
(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/422/img0088f.th.jpg) (http://img266.imageshack.us/i/img0088f.jpg/)
Thanks I hope you can help me!
Greetings!
why pin8 of the cd4066 must be at 9V? there is a 10k resistor between pin8 and 9V!
anyway...I find the source of my problem: some copper removed between pin1 (TL072) and the 680k resistor, I didn't see it at first sight cause it was hidden by a pot wire. I bypassed it with a "flying" wire, and the problem with Time and Depth died.... but now, for unknown reasons, the circuit has gone to die totally, nothing is working: no delay, no chorus, no vibe ;D
many tension on the pt2399 and the cd4066 are out of range. the next days I'll re-check all the circuit to find the new bug :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: ancarano on December 02, 2009, 10:49:41 AM
why pin8 of the cd4066 must be at 9V? there is a 10k resistor between pin8 and 9V!
anyway...I find the source of my problem: some copper removed between pin1 (TL072) and the 680k resistor, I didn't see it at first sight cause it was hidden by a pot wire. I bypassed it with a "flying" wire, and the problem with Time and Depth died.... but now, for unknown reasons, the circuit has gone to die totally, nothing is working: no delay, no chorus, no vibe ;D
many tension on the pt2399 and the cd4066 are out of range. the next days I'll re-check all the circuit to find the new bug :icon_mrgreen:
Well I'm glad you figured out the original problem. It's too bad there is another problem now. My guess is that the wire connections are loose now. It happens to me just about every time I have to troubleshoot a circuit.
Good Luck!!
I've found the last (I hope) problem with a pot wire, and now the circuit seems to be ok, but I have a few questions:
1) on pin8 of CD4066 I have 1.85V instead of 9V, and on pin9 1.89V instead of 3V (values reported by Slacker as correct tensions): why? what I have to re-check?
2) the delayed notes seems to be a little bit "closed", like when you close the tone pot of the guitar: is ok?
2-b) I have to use this effect on bass guitar, do you suggest to change some capacitor?
Quote from: ancarano on December 03, 2009, 10:43:07 AM
I've found the last (I hope) problem with a pot wire, and now the circuit seems to be ok, but I have a few questions:
1) on pin8 of CD4066 I have 1.85V instead of 9V, and on pin9 1.89V instead of 3V (values reported by Slacker as correct tensions): why? what I have to re-check?
2) the delayed notes seems to be a little bit "closed", like when you close the tone pot of the guitar: is ok?
2-b) I have to use this effect on bass guitar, do you suggest to change some capacitor?
I'm not sure why the voltages are not right, but mine were not exact either for some reason. I decided on not using the LED lead from the 4066 because it didn't burn bright enough for me. So I just used a DPDT bypass switch and hooked the LED to that. I think due to some of the changes in the circuit through out development that some of the voltages have changed. I could be wrong, but I would say as long as your circuit sounds like it's supposed to, there is nothing to worry about.
As far as the Bass, This circuit is very transparent so it should work as nicely with a bass as it does with guitar without any changes. I think that you've probably done too many fixes to your circuit to try anymore changes. I would reccomend building another one if you plan on making any mods to it.
Just my opinion.
-Wade
I have the same problem with the led, it doesn't burn bright as I expected (actually is not useful to check if the effect is bypassed or not). I was thinking about the possibility to add a 3PDT bypass, so I could make it true-bypass and add the led.
As riguards the bass, I agree with you... this circuit seems to work without distinction between bass and guitar, infact I actually hear the same "closed tone" on both :D . I hope this can be solved.
Compuwade, thanks for your precious help and opinions.
Just to address the issue of LED not being bright enough, have you tried an ultra bright LED? With these you can run them at half a milliamp or less and they'll still be more then bright enough to be useful.
dave
I just finished my Echo Base (well the electronics part of it), it's awesome! I'm still trying to wrap my head around all the combinations of modulation and delay.
It did take some time to get parts that fit for the Ano......ward layout. That's a pretty tight layout, and my etch wasn't as good most of the others I etched myself. Also, for some reason oxidation of the board started pretty quickly, even though I cleaned it with fine steel wool, soldering wasn't the pleasure it can be.
Let's box this thing up!
hi guys i'm thinking of going for this echo base build..i like the idea of the tails switch too...
i found a pdf made by anonymousfacelesscoward...for the echo base...pcb version.
has anyone made this version?
and is it the same as the demo's on youtube?....
just want a few comments in case this isn't what it seems...... :icon_rolleyes:
its quite a big build for a bit of a novice like me, ive just built the rebote 2.5 tho..and i love it..
just want to be sure..anyone?
See above, I didn't feel like typing the whole anonymousfacelesscowardstuff, so I abbreviated it. But that's the layout I used, and it worked at first startup (despite the below-par etch job).
It is quite a big build, and a very compact layout. Sourcing of the right sized components is important (the film caps), use sockets for the IC's, pay attention to the jumpers beneath the sockets!
I wouldn't recommend this for a second build, but if you can solder properly and can work neatly and flawlessly, why not.
Quote from: deadastronaut on December 23, 2009, 12:07:42 PM
hi guys i'm thinking of going for this echo base build..i like the idea of the tails switch too...
i found a pdf made by anonymousfacelesscoward...for the echo base...pcb version.
has anyone made this version?
and is it the same as the demo's on youtube?....
just want a few comments in case this isn't what it seems...... :icon_rolleyes:
its quite a big build for a bit of a novice like me, ive just built the rebote 2.5 tho..and i love it..
just want to be sure..anyone?
ive made that version, its verified and it seems to be the same as the one on youtube - very cool pedal
Hi,
I decided to make a DIY delay using that chip, but what's the different between the "pt-80" and the "rebote delay" ?
I saw the first uses two additional chips , but I don't know more.
The PT-80 was designed to emulate an analog delay, that's why it's got a compander chip in there.
Ok thnaks.
Both seem cool , by the way.
hi guys have built the anon--coward echo base.....finally..god that was tight n precise...phewww...
anyway..it all works fine ...brilliant in fact........only thing is the wiring of a 3dpt switch!!!!
ive got 2 wires for a bypass..
and 3 wires for tails/boss.........whatever boss means?(boss pedal i guess)....... :icon_redface:
also is a hold switch mod possible on this?
any ideas.............??????
The echobase and that layout are intended for a momentary switch for bypass, unless you mod it for true bypass, in which case you can't use the boss/tails switch.
The two wires for bypass are just wired to the two poles. You need a seperate SPDT switch for the boss/tails switch.
And by momentary, I meant latching.. sorry about that :icon_redface:
I might get away with this question in this topic:
I have a PT2399 ic and most of the parts for building this, the Rebote 2.5 or the MagnusModulus.
But i am actually fancying buying a cheaper delay. (like the memory boy/toy or behringer digital/analog delay, GFS analog delay, or other stuff up to 100$)
I don't really need the other features (chorus, vibrato etc.) but i don't mind them, but i am looking for a delay in he first place.
Can a PT2399 offer a performance similar to the mentioned units? (i don't really looking for the lowpass filtered analog sound, the lower noise/cleaner the better)
Can those diy project offer better performance than the cheaper mass-product delays, or delay is an effect which is not really diy friendly?
In my opinion it depends what you want , if you want a super clean delay especially at longer times then you won't get that from a PT2399 based pedal, whether it's DIY or commercial, the chip just can't do it.
You can make a very nice sounding delay with them though, if you want something warm and vaguely analogue sounding then the Rebote 2.5 is a great pedal, if you want something cleaner sounding then the Echo Base does that plus you get the modulation.
Supposedly the GFS pedal uses a PT2399, as do a lot of cheap "analog" delays, so it probably is similar to a Rebote 2.5. I had a listen to some clips on Youtube and it sounds Ok, definitely no better than something you could build yourself though.
The Memory boy sounds nice, but the Echo Base can do similar modulation sounds, and you can change the modulation speed without having to use an expression pedal.
What I'd do seen as how you've already got some of the parts is build one of the DIY delays and then buy something like a second hand Boss DD3 or a Behringer rip off. That way you've got a delay with a bit of character and a nice clean delay, that should cover most things.
Quote from: slacker on January 14, 2010, 04:34:16 PM
In my opinion it depends what you want , if you want a super clean delay especially at longer times then you won't get that from a PT2399 based pedal, whether it's DIY or commercial, the chip just can't do it.
You can make a very nice sounding delay with them though, if you want something warm and vaguely analogue sounding then the Rebote 2.5 is a great pedal, if you want something cleaner sounding then the Echo Base does that plus you get the modulation.
Supposedly the GFS pedal uses a PT2399, as do a lot of cheap "analog" delays, so it probably is similar to a Rebote 2.5. I had a listen to some clips on Youtube and it sounds Ok, definitely no better than something you could build yourself though.
The Memory boy sounds nice, but the Echo Base can do similar modulation sounds, and you can change the modulation speed without having to use an expression pedal.
What I'd do seen as how you've already got some of the parts is build one of the DIY delays and then buy something like a second hand Boss DD3 or a Behringer rip off. That way you've got a delay with a bit of character and a nice clean delay, that should cover most things.
Thanks! Then i gonna go for the Echo Base, i have everything what it needs expect a few capacitors.
Quote from: WhenBoredomPeaks on January 14, 2010, 08:15:24 AM
I don't really need the other features (chorus, vibrato etc.) but i don't mind them, but i am looking for a delay in he first place.
Can a PT2399 offer a performance similar to the mentioned units? (i don't really looking for the lowpass filtered analog sound, the lower noise/cleaner the better)
Can those diy project offer better performance than the cheaper mass-product delays, or delay is an effect which is not really diy friendly?
if you are interested in, i've a layout (for stripboard ) of the echo base without the other effect -just the delay section- and true bypass.
it's not verified, but i took it from another verified stripboard layout (by GilaCrisis) of the complete echobase.
SOmeone put a "tone" pot like Carl martin did on its red delay on these PT2399 delay ?
Some people complains about the dark tone of rebote delay and watching the schema , there's a filter after the delayed signal path , maybe SOmeone has already tried to play with ?
Quote from: fuzzo on January 15, 2010, 09:02:39 AM
SOmeone put a "tone" pot like Carl martin did on its red delay on these PT2399 delay ?
Some people complains about the dark tone of rebote delay and watching the schema , there's a filter after the delayed signal path , maybe SOmeone has already tried to play with ?
I breadboarded the example circuit of the PT2399 (basically the Rebote 1.0) and its repeats are really noisy so thats why it sounds dark imo because the noise filtering is taking away the treble too.
Quote from: ancarano on January 15, 2010, 06:36:01 AMif you are interested in, i've a layout (for stripboard ) of the echo base without the other effect -just the delay section- and true bypass.
it's not verified, but i took it from another verified stripboard layout (by GilaCrisis) of the complete echobase.
Thanks, but i can remove it, but i think i gonna left it there, the more possibilities, the better.
going for a higher order output filter can help with the noise, and the steeper rolloff allows for a higher cutoff freq. (resulting in a less dark tone)
Quote from: WhenBoredomPeaks on January 15, 2010, 10:15:13 AM
Quote from: fuzzo on January 15, 2010, 09:02:39 AM
SOmeone put a "tone" pot like Carl martin did on its red delay on these PT2399 delay ?
Some people complains about the dark tone of rebote delay and watching the schema , there's a filter after the delayed signal path , maybe SOmeone has already tried to play with ?
I breadboarded the example circuit of the PT2399 (basically the Rebote 1.0) and its repeats are really noisy so thats why it sounds dark imo because the noise filtering is taking away the treble too.
Ok I thought that was desinged espcially for that kind of analog sound . The noise is really present on rebote delay ?
I have spoken to Ian and I may do a run of professionally manufactured Echo Base PCBs. These would be quality double sided boards with silkscreen and soldermask. I would most likely do PCB-mounted pots to cut a lot of the offboard wiring down. This will make for a nice clean and leisurely build. :)
I will be looking through this thread to check out all the variations and mods everyone's come up with since I built my Echo Bases last summer. But it would be helpful to hear from you guys what variants seem to be the most popular, so that I can include as many as possible into the PCB. It's always a balancing act between the flexibility to build different versions and an easy build. The more options you add the harder it is for someone who just wants to build the thing stock.
So what would be the top mods you think should be included?
Hi Taylor, that's great! I'm up for a couple strait away :)
I think double chip mod is good idea, also I would like to have FX loop and tap tempo in mine...
Thanks
Pawel
The double chip does the 2 chips in series for longer time, right? Not ping pong?
Would the tap tempo be for time or the LFO? Both might be a tall order... :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: Taylor on January 16, 2010, 02:51:09 AM
The double chip does the 2 chips in series for longer time, right? Not ping pong?
Would the tap tempo be for time or the LFO? Both might be a tall order... :icon_biggrin:
Hi, yes, double time, or simply cleaner repeats :) also tap tempo for time is what I was thinking of..
Other mods that we can do is switch that cut the speed in half like in Cornis T.E.S.. But it's offboard mod and easy to make, all you have to have is stacked pot and switch :)
Taylor i have posted somewhere how to control the delay time of 2 chips only with one pot, instead of setting the 2nd chip with a fixed time. This may be worth adding
Quote from: cpm on January 16, 2010, 04:21:24 AM
Taylor i have posted somewhere how to control the delay time of 2 chips only with one pot, instead of setting the 2nd chip with a fixed time. This may be worth adding
Quote from: RG KeenAnother way I've never seen done, but which works pretty darn well is to change the speed pot to a dual speed pot, both sections half the original resistance, but put in series. Each section contributes half the "slowness". By shorting across one, the speed doubles.
I could be wrong, but it sounds like RG is talking about a single delay chip in that quote...? I think cpm and RG are talking about different things there.
So for the circuits with 2 pt2399's, can you just smack the LFO onto each delay pot and have one modulation controlling multiple chips?
Yeah one LFO can drive more than one chip. Using the Echo Base method you just need a separate PNP transistor for each chip, then you can either have one depth control hooked up to both transistors or hook 2 depth controls up to the LFO, so you could have different amounts of modulation on each chip.
You'd get some pretty mad sounds if the 2 PT2399s were in series though, because the modulated signal from the first chip would then get modulated again by the second chip, might sound great might just be a complete mess.
The reason
Quote from: cpm on January 16, 2010, 04:21:24 AM
Taylor i have posted somewhere how to control the delay time of 2 chips only with one pot, instead of setting the 2nd chip with a fixed time. This may be worth adding
Yeah that's definitely worth looking at, the reason I did it with a fixed delay was that was the simplest way to do what Valoosj wanted, which was just more delay time.
Quote from: slacker on January 27, 2010, 01:12:20 PM
Yeah one LFO can drive more than one chip. Using the Echo Base method you just need a separate PNP transistor for each chip, then you can either have one depth control hooked up to both transistors or hook 2 depth controls up to the LFO, so you could have different amounts of modulation on each chip.
You'd get some pretty mad sounds if the 2 PT2399s were in series though, because the modulated signal from the first chip would then get modulated again by the second chip, might sound great might just be a complete mess.
Well that sounds easy enough. What if the cap/resistor set up was used? Would it be just repeat the 4.7u/4.7k combo for each chip?
(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/1205/modulusbaselfo.jpg)
FWIW, I still play my stock echo base just about every day. I absolutely love it :icon_mrgreen:
I get a kick out of seeing my goofy schems posted around the place... :D For some reason I used 2 different symbols for resistors in that one. ???
Let me comment by saying that I don't see any point in doing the modulation on both PT2399s if you have them in series. You will get modulation and double time just by sending the mod signal into one of them. If you're doing the ping pong thing I guess I can see it.
It will be for parallel (with the optional series, of course ;D)
I'm doing a pseudo echorec with 4 pt2399's.. so I'm trying to get that sliiight warble, but having the ability to take the mod deeper like in the echo base. I'd rather do the resistor/cap thing as me and transistors never get along :'(
I might as well ask, also, what's the point of having 8v on the TL072? Wouldn't be easier to just apply the 9v onto it?
Also, scratch that last question, as I think I found the answer. Pins 3 and 6 need to be half off the supply right? so if I supply the TL072 with 12v, I can connect 3 and 6 to 6v?
Quote from: mth5044 on January 27, 2010, 08:48:52 PM
I'm doing a pseudo echorec with 4 pt2399's.. so I'm trying to get that sliiight warble, but having the ability to take the mod deeper like in the echo base. I'd rather do the resistor/cap thing as me and transistors never get along :'(
Nice then we're working on a similar project. Are you having the PT2399's in series or parallel?
If in series you'd only have to modulate the first PT2399 to get the warble.
What are you doing with the post delay filtering for each of the PT2399's?
Regards,
Arnoud
Quote from: mth5044 on January 27, 2010, 08:48:52 PM
I might as well ask, also, what's the point of having 8v on the TL072? Wouldn't be easier to just apply the 9v onto it?
Also, scratch that last question, as I think I found the answer. Pins 3 and 6 need to be half off the supply right? so if I supply the TL072 with 12v, I can connect 3 and 6 to 6v?
If you mean the LFO, powering it off the lower voltage is to isolate it from the main power supply, the theory behind this is that it helps stops noise from the LFO getting into the audio. If you're running it off 12 volts, you might get away with connecting pins 3 and 6 to 5 volts like I did or use 6 volts.
hey what would be a suitable replacement for the 2N5089 i cant find it here, could it be mpsa18, 2n3919, 2n3904, bc547, 2n2222, bc172 ???
and i remember having seen a schem showing how to bypass the modulation and one how to make the led show the mod rate, i went through the 39 pages and didnt find any of the two >:(
i hope someone can help me
Any NPN transistor should work instead of the 2N5089, I would just use a 2N3904.
The schematic for the mod switching is in another thread http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=81668.msg676920#msg676920 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=81668.msg676920#msg676920)
Quote from: slacker on January 30, 2010, 04:02:47 PM
Any NPN transistor should work instead of the 2N5089, I would just use a 2N3904.
The schematic for the mod switching is in another thread http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=81668.msg676920#msg676920 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=81668.msg676920#msg676920)
thanks a lot this wil be fun, i wonder if its possible to connect it directly to the led or if it has to go through the 4066
Yeah you can just connect the LED and resistor directly to pin 1 of the LFO, putting it through the CD4066 is so the switching turns it on and off.
Quote from: slacker on January 31, 2010, 06:26:50 AM
Yeah you can just connect the LED and resistor directly to pin 1 of the LFO, putting it through the CD4066 is so the switching turns it on and off.
ok thanks maybe ill make it atlast ive been cirkulating around i for some months now, i moved from south america to europe so i been paused in the diy for some time
Hi everyone,
As you can see I'm new to the board so first of all a big THANK YOU to slacker for this awesome pedal and all his feedback to other people creating mods..I've gone through all 40 pages in the last couple of days and I've learned a lot! So yeah I'd like to build some version of the Echo Base myself (without the modulation bits)..unfortunately I only discovered it when I had already ordered all parts for a Rebote 2.5, but I'm pretty sure I can improvise with the parts that I have.. Since I've got quite some customising coming up anyway I've been trying to really understand all the pin assignments of the PT2399. The data sheet is a joke except for pins 1-6 which are pretty much self-explanatory, and I can't find the description of pins I thought I remembered from somewhere early in this thread..but let's try, based on the audioprobe-results:
16. LPF1-IN very quiet signal
15. LPF1-OUT delay
audio in, which makes sense since the signal has to go through an LPF first before being digitised.. Do I get it right that this is actually the input and output of an OpAmp, the two resistors before 15/16 controlling the gain? (sidenote: if I use a 10k/47k combination on the setup that I've got on my breadboard right now (pretty much the "typical configuration" setting from the datasheet with 10k/15k) I get some serious distortion, which might indicate just that.) And the 470pF cap between the two pins acts as yet another LPF?
14. LPF2-OUT loud delay with cyclic noise
13. LPF2-IN nothing, or possibly a very quiet signal
Anybody got a clue why there should be another LPF in the chip, particularly one for the output?
12. OP2-OUT delay with hiss
11. OP2-IN very quiet delay with hiss
10. OP1-IN very quiet delay with hiss
9 . OP1-OUT delay with cyclic noise and hiss
Pretty clueless, particularly about 9 and 10.. Can anyone with more experience with the PT2399 tell me what difference the cap between 9 and 10 makes? Here (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg563432#msg563432) somebody mentioned an effect on the internal clock bleeding through (which I also encounter when turning the delay pot past 40k), the post isn't clear about influences on other sources of noise though..
A lot of questions for a first post I know, but hopefully some of you can share your experience with customising the thing..will go straight back to meddling with it myself now ;)
Best!
Kevin
joke: http://www.princeton.com.tw/downloadprocess/downloadfile.asp?mydownload=PT2399.pdf
Oh wow, so I had the truncated version of the datasheet all along.. My bad in that case, sry :-\
I have a question. I built one of these recently and I love it. I use it all the time. But I've noticed that when I have it plugged in, whether bypassed or on, it introduces a small hiss into the signal. I know it's the Echo Base because if I remove it the hiss goes away. Has anyone else had that issue, or knows maybe why?
Thanks!
-Wade
Look into this:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78047.msg642754#msg642754
Thanks for that! I'll mess with the buffers a little and see how it goes.
OK I'm now ready to build an echo bass is there a final layout with all the changes and noise reducing updates Ian made?
I will be making my own PCB layout but would like to have the latest layout.
Thanks
No sorry I haven't done a schematic with all the changes on it yet.
The 3 schematics here show all the mods I've made to mine http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/?g2_page=6 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/?g2_page=6)
New here. Maybe somebody could help me with something. I want to build this delay, and I read somebody mentioned before that they added a momentary switch to increase oscillation to like a dub/infinite level on the fly, which to me sounds like an awesome idea. But in reading all 40 pages it was never really explained how to wire that up. Anybody know how? ???
Here's how I've done it.
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=42400&g2_serialNumber=1)
10k - 100k is probably good for the resistor after the switch, or you can use a pot so you can dial in the amount of feedback you want.
Welcome to the forum :)
Hi,
I'm gonna make one of these delay (first on breadboard ) and I'd like to add a kind of "dirt" or tinny saturation on delayed signal like , according to what I read, the real tape echo units do . Any ideas about incorporating that thing (setable with a pot) ?
Hi! If voltages on pins are correct, is it still possible that the IC is damaged? Cause yesterday it worked fine, but after cleaning and renewing joints it makes a lot of crackle noise on repetitions and bad distortion (not the saturated one)... I don't have other PT to substitute and i've checked PCB and wiring 1000 times.... everything's good...
Yes it's possible to get all the correct voltages and still have a damaged PT2399. Does all the distortion stop if you turn the Level pot all the way down? If it does then it's probably a bad PT2399.
Well it's not a distortion injectec in the signal path by the PT2399. No backgound noise or anything like that.. This crappy distortion appears just on the delayed signal, i tried to remove the PT and probe the signal on pins 16 and 15 and the sound is clean, so it's not a bad capacitor or resistor on the input. No problems on buffers or 4066... The distortion it produces is something like a bad biasing of a dr.boo, kind of fuzzy crappy, it's not a saturation it's an ON-OFF distortion like if there was a distortion threshold somewhere >:( ??? :(
The problem came out after renewing joints and after cleaning mounted PCB with alchol.. I could have burnt the PT i think but it seems to work... Voltages are ok and it makes delay.... don't know
I'm a big fan of this effect, and I wanted to build another of these with less noise and some tweaks, so I did a new PCB design and had some professional PCBs made up. I have some here if anybody's interested:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=83525.msg694322#msg694322
Just as I ordered a board from John, this comes out :icon_neutral:
Oh well... it does raise 3 questions:
1) Is John's board based on rev 1 or rev 2?
2) Are these the correct changes in rev2? (Except for the 1M resistor on the input)
(http://jonandtina.net/static/images/echobaserev2-changes.png)
3) Can these changes be made to the existing John Lyons board? The toughest one might be what looks like the input buffer, but I'm not experienced enough to know what the differences are between the old and new. I've read all 40 pages several times but pointers would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Sorry about that, it's really just a bunch of mods that that were already out there for the original. After Taylor did his PCBs I just thought I'd put them all together on one schematic. John's board will be rev 1. There's one other change that you've missed, that's the 2u2 cap connected to pin 7 of U1B, I don't think the PCB already includes that.
None of the changes are critical and apart from the new buffers and they can all be added to the original PCBs if you want them, the flashing LED might be a bit tricky.
To be honest I would just build it as rev 1 and then see if you need/want the mods.
The 2u2 is just there to stop a bit of ticking from the LFO that some people reported, I never had a problem with it, so if you don't get any ticking you don't need it.
The 10u cap before the mod depth pot reduces the interaction between the pot setting and the delay time. Basically on the original as you turn the pot up the delay time gets a bit longer, this bothered a few people. Again I'd build it without and see if it bothers you, if it does it's simple enough to add it.
The flashing LED mod (the 10k-50k resistor) is only really worth doing if you also add the modulation on/off switch.
The new buffers reduce the background hiss the pedal has, a few people complained about this and to be fair the original is quite noisy. Most people who have built it seem happy with it though, or if they aren't they haven't told me about it :)
If you do find it too noisy it's pretty easy to build the new buffers on a piece of vero or perf board and add them to the pedal, I don't think you can modify the PCB to include them, but I might be wrong.
Wow thanks, I love answers like that, I learn so much about how these circuits work!
I think a few of these might be easy enough to do, I think I'll take it one mod at a time, like you said.
I'm going to update the graphic, to help point out that capacitor. I did notice that one too, just forgot to circle it.
Cool, I'll have a look at the original PCB and see if I can show how to add the mods. I presume the PCB John's using is the anonymousfacelesscoward one?
Looks like with a bit of trace cutting and a couple of extra jumpers the new buffers can be added to the PCB.
Quote from: slacker on April 02, 2010, 04:51:42 PM
Cool, I'll have a look at the original PCB and see if I can show how to add the mods. I presume the PCB John's using is the anonymousfacelesscoward one?
Looks like with a bit of trace cutting and a couple of extra jumpers the new buffers can be added to the PCB.
Thanks again - I just got my PCB in the mail today (yay John!), and it does look like the anonymousfacelesscoward one, as you pictured here:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg571675#msg571675
I'm getting rather excited to put this together.
Quote from: slacker on March 03, 2008, 12:14:49 PM
The error is only on the schematic, the layout is OK. Whoever made it must have noticed the mistake and corrected it.
All the other layouts are correct as well.
Hello everybody! I have a doubt: the layout of Echo Base that link is totally correct? (Http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html).
I was reading this post and slacker said that the schematic was wrong. What is wrong?
Thank you all.
Pretty sure that is right. Besides the 'Verified' on the top, I think the problem with the schematic was within the first few pages of this thread, but it got all fixed up. John Lyons made me an anonymousfacelesscoward PCB and it worked well.
Quote from: lucasventura on April 11, 2010, 08:24:50 PM
Quote from: slacker on March 03, 2008, 12:14:49 PM
The error is only on the schematic, the layout is OK. Whoever made it must have noticed the mistake and corrected it.
All the other layouts are correct as well.
Hello everybody! I have a doubt: the layout of Echo Base that link is totally correct? (Http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html).
I was reading this post and slacker said that the schematic was wrong. What is wrong?
Thank you all.
I used this layout and it works great. The only issue with it is with the input buffer. It hisses a little with some amps. There is a thread with the fixes to this problem but I can't find it at the moment. Other than the little hiss, it sounds and works as described in the original post.
-Wade
Well, while troubleshooting my build, I let the magic blue smoke out of my only 78L05. :'( While I wait for another one... the bypass LED that goes to ground, is there an implied current-limiting resistor on that, or is it necessary? I put one in while testing... I suppose it can't hurt, just wondering if I can simplify this a bit.
I did notice while it was working, that the LED was always on, no matter what position my switch was in. No sound though...
While I'm asking dumb questions... I can't seem to find the pinouts for the 78L05 - on the datasheets I found it SEEMS to be output/gnd/input looking at it from the bottom - which means the parts layout I referred to above is backwards? Is that layout supposed to be "component side" or "solder side"? I wonder now about the other transistors and even if I blew up my ICs too. Ugh.
Quote from: BoxOfSnoo on April 12, 2010, 09:57:42 AM
Well, while troubleshooting my build, I let the magic blue smoke out of my only 78L05. :'( While I wait for another one... the bypass LED that goes to ground, is there an implied current-limiting resistor on that, or is it necessary? I put one in while testing... I suppose it can't hurt, just wondering if I can simplify this a bit.
I did notice while it was working, that the LED was always on, no matter what position my switch was in. No sound though...
While I'm asking dumb questions... I can't seem to find the pinouts for the 78L05 - on the datasheets I found it SEEMS to be output/gnd/input looking at it from the bottom - which means the parts layout I referred to above is backwards? Is that layout supposed to be "component side" or "solder side"? I wonder now about the other transistors and even if I blew up my ICs too. Ugh.
You do not need a resistor for the LED if you use the given connection from the PCB. However, from my experience the LED was very dim, so I used a limiting resistor and a DPDT footswitch to bypass the circuit and turn the LED off. This was better for me. If you use a superbright blue LED it should be plenty bright using the given PCB connection.
I believe the 7805 that was used in the original design was a TO-220 packaged version. It's a larger version that can handle more current than the 78L05. When looking at the flat side of the 78L05 (which is the version you have) the pinouts are: OUTPUT--GROUND--INPUT. When looking at the label side of the TO-220 version the pinouts are: INPUT--GROUND--OUTPUT. You can find this version at any radio shack if you are in the US.
Thanks, I think I've figured out the correct pinouts now. What confused me was the TO-92 pin #1 is the OUTPUT...
They do have the same package in The Source here in Canada, but it's $5! Is the higher current necessary (or worth it) for this project? If not, I may get a handful from SmallBear even though it's $6 for shipping...
Quote from: BoxOfSnoo on April 12, 2010, 09:57:42 AM
Well, while troubleshooting my build, I let the magic blue smoke out of my only 78L05.
Impressive, I've always thought they were pretty indestructible.
Quote
:'( While I wait for another one... the bypass LED that goes to ground, is there an implied current-limiting resistor on that, or is it necessary?
Like compuwade said you don't need a current limiting resistor there's already one on the board, it's the 10k connected to pin 8 of the CD4066. If the LED's not bright enough you could try making this smaller, I haven't tried this though.
Best thing to do for the 78l05 and the transistors is follow the datasheet for your particular ones rather than just following the layout. The other to watch out for is that on the layout the 2 TL072s are upside down so pin 1 is bottom right. If you've put them in the other way they are probably dead :(
Quote from: BoxOfSnoo on April 12, 2010, 01:02:59 PM
They do have the same package in The Source here in Canada, but it's $5! Is the higher current necessary (or worth it) for this project?
No there's no need to use the 7805 the 78L05 is fine, I just used one because I had a load of them to hand.
Quote from: slacker on April 12, 2010, 01:07:26 PM
Quote from: BoxOfSnoo on April 12, 2010, 09:57:42 AM
Well, while troubleshooting my build, I let the magic blue smoke out of my only 78L05.
Impressive, I've always thought they were pretty indestructible.
I'm getting good at destroying parts! :) I hope my 2 other chips survived the meltdown, those might be harder to find locally.
Quote from: slacker on April 12, 2010, 01:07:26 PM
Like compuwade said you don't need a current limiting resistor there's already one on the board, it's the 10k connected to pin 8 of the CD4066. If the LED's not bright enough you could try making this smaller, I haven't tried this though.
Best thing to do for the 78l05 and the transistors is follow the datasheet for your particular ones rather than just following the layout. The other to watch out for is that on the layout the 2 TL072s are upside down so pin 1 is bottom right. If you've put them in the other way they are probably dead :(
Thanks, again good to know what those parts do. I do have an ultra-bright LED on hand so that might fix it up if it bothers me that much. I did notice the TL072 positioning as I was soldering the sockets on... I was like, "hey, why is this one solder pad kinda square and the others.... OHHHHHH...." (reach for desoldering pump). At least I looked closely at that one.
I also discovered that the 2N5087 has a backwards pinout from the BC560, so I may need to replace that one too - at least for that one I wisely ordered spares.
Slacker, I sent you a private message regarding some questions about the delay? Did you happen to get it?
After a whole lot of x-acto work (John, a lot of those traces are awfully close together) and finding one mistake in a resistor value... I got it to mostly work. Right now I have the delayed signal louder than the direct signal, and the level pot does nothing. Pin 15 of the PT2399 seems to give both signals equally strong, so the direct signal is not getting through for some reason.
The next issue after that is that when the tails switch is on, the bypass doesn't bypass... could these be related?
If the level pot doesn't do anything it's probably connected wrong, double check the wiring. I wouldn't worry about the bypass problem until you've sorted that out..
I did it! :icon_mrgreen: :icon_mrgreen: It was more trace separation work that needed to be done. Man I learned a lot about debugging this time around. First time I used the audio probe successfully, actually...!
One question, there seems to be a fair bit of distortion in the repeats, is this inherent to the design of the circuit?
P.S. I really appreciate your help, you've been a great support and SUPER QUICK! It's inspired me to do the same for others, if I can.
Glad you got it working. Some people have mentioned that it sounds a bit distorted especially with hot pickups, I've never noticed on mine.
The first thing to do would be to remove the 2 diodes connected to the feedback pot and see if that stops it.
This is what it's supposed to sound like if you want something to compare yours to, to me this demo sounds the most like my pedal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlSsMIK0s4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlSsMIK0s4)
hey slacker just finished mine.,.,. just nodding the head and grinning,, awesome
Quote from: slacker on April 14, 2010, 04:32:21 PM
Glad you got it working. Some people have mentioned that it sounds a bit distorted especially with hot pickups, I've never noticed on mine.
The first thing to do would be to remove the 2 diodes connected to the feedback pot and see if that stops it.
This is what it's supposed to sound like if you want something to compare yours to, to me this demo sounds the most like my pedal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlSsMIK0s4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNlSsMIK0s4)
Yes, I see the diodes, that would make sense. I may try lifting them and see what it sounds like. I may even be able to put them on a switch if I can't decide which one I like better.
Ohh I watched that video many many times as I was contemplating building this pedal. I think my delays are slightly dirtier than that... my pickups aren't all that hot, I do have a Seymour Duncan JB, which is hotter than typical but not insanely hot. I'll play a bit with it (so easy to do now that it's working) and report back what the sounds are like.
Quote from: BoxOfSnoo on April 14, 2010, 06:05:25 PM
Yes, I see the diodes, that would make sense. I may try lifting them and see what it sounds like. I may even be able to put them on a switch if I can't decide which one I like better.
Actually I have another thought, after reading how clipping diodes work. According to a great post from R.G. a resistor in series with the diodes will blend in the straight signal. Is this what the 20k resistor before the diodes accomplishes? Would adjusting this value simply adjust the "dirtiness" of the delay? Or, if I add a pot between the diodes and ground, will this let me dial in the amount of clipping? Is there any practical limit (in either direction) for this resistor?
P.S. rewatching The Empire Strikes Back right now because of all of this :D
The 20k resistor is after the diodes so adjusting that won't affect the clipping, that resistor controls how easily the pedal self oscillates. If you wanted to try what R.G was talking about you would need to add a resistor between the wiper of the feedback pot and the diodes.
Yeah a pot between the diodes and ground would let you dial in different amounts of clipping, might be interesting to try that.
Quote
P.S. rewatching The Empire Strikes Back right now because of all of this Cheesy
Then my work here is done :)
Just like to say thanks Slacker for a wonderful pedal!
Finished mine lastnight, didn't work at first but a very easy debug found I'd missed a resistor and a trace cut out!! Idiot!
Loving the sounds, may do another one with a modulation switch and other bits and bobs.
Heres a pic of mine, kept the Starwars theme going!
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs379.snc3/24224_416456911139_627701139_5706555_451457_n.jpg)
The 2 blaster lines below the Feedback pot glow red when the effect is on :icon_cool:
Jimi
Quote from: Jimi W on April 15, 2010, 03:11:24 PM
The 2 blaster lines below the Feedback pot glow red when the effect is on :icon_cool:
Jimi
We're going to need pics of that.
Did you use a Dremel blade to do that, or...?
Nice one Jimi, that looks great. Definitely need to see those laser beams :)
May be a bit of a let down chaps!!!
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs399.snc3/24224_416477121139_627701139_5706776_6986273_n.jpg)
Was a bit tricky to photo and I need to make the LED a bit brighter. Forgot it wasn't a super bright LED! May actually swap it for a blue one?
Taylor, yeah I used a Dremel cutting disc, kinda wished I'd got a thinner disc though because they ended up a bit wider than I'd hoped for. Must say I was very nervous taking the Dremel to my first etched enclosure that I'd spent so long on!
Jimi
Quote from: Jimi W on April 15, 2010, 03:39:51 PM
May be a bit of a let down chaps!!!
No way, that looks really cool. I applaud you, sir.
Quote from: Jimi W on April 15, 2010, 03:11:24 PM
Heres a pic of mine, kept the Starwars theme going!
Awesome! Where did you find the font for that?
Quote from: BoxOfSnoo on April 15, 2010, 03:59:07 PM
Quote from: Jimi W on April 15, 2010, 03:11:24 PM
Heres a pic of mine, kept the Starwars theme going!
Awesome! Where did you find the font for that?
I just googled Starwars font and searched.....and searched! Its called StarJedi. You can get it for free here
http://www.dafont.com/star-jedi.font (http://www.dafont.com/star-jedi.font)
Works loads better for some words than others.
Jimi
Quote from: Jimi W on April 15, 2010, 04:09:02 PM
Quote from: BoxOfSnoo on April 15, 2010, 03:59:07 PM
Quote from: Jimi W on April 15, 2010, 03:11:24 PM
Heres a pic of mine, kept the Starwars theme going!
Awesome! Where did you find the font for that?
I just googled Starwars font and searched.....and searched! Its called StarJedi. You can get it for free here
http://www.dafont.com/star-jedi.font (http://www.dafont.com/star-jedi.font)
Works loads better for some words than others.
Hope you realize I am SO going to rip off your idea for this :) Don't be surprised if you see it in the pics thread.
I'm going to expose my geekiness (yeah right), but did the Rebels actually fire red lasers? Were they blue? I can't remember...
And I'm not knocking you bro, the pedal is sick! As someone already stated, I pretty much wanna rip off your design. In fact, a whole array of STAR WARS themed pedals would be awesome. Tatooine, Endor, Degoba... oh god... :D
Hi,
beautiful etch work. I personaly stopped etching my enclosures as it is way too time taking and sometimes unpredictable. Anyway I discovered a new method that works well for me - ceramic foils you usualy use to make your own coffee cups.:D No clear coating needed, no super skinny waterslide that rips off while trying to apply it.
Anyway, here's my (reworked) Echo Base V2 with true bypass.
(http://www.imagebanana.com/img/fwa2unwg/thumb/CIMG3328.JPG) (http://www.imagebanana.com/img/fwa2unwg/CIMG3328.JPG)
(http://www.imagebanana.com/img/xhy0qwmk/thumb/CIMG3329.JPG) (http://www.imagebanana.com/img/xhy0qwmk/CIMG3329.JPG)
Cheers
Helge
OOOOOHHHH SNAAAAAAAAP! I TOOOOOOOTAAAAAALY want one of those star wars enclosures!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Jimi W on April 15, 2010, 03:39:51 PM
May be a bit of a let down chaps!!!
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs399.snc3/24224_416477121139_627701139_5706776_6986273_n.jpg)
Was a bit tricky to photo and I need to make the LED a bit brighter. Forgot it wasn't a super bright LED! May actually swap it for a blue one?
Taylor, yeah I used a Dremel cutting disc, kinda wished I'd got a thinner disc though because they ended up a bit wider than I'd hoped for. Must say I was very nervous taking the Dremel to my first etched enclosure that I'd spent so long on!
Jimi
WOW I love it,excellent work mate.I can tell you put alot of effort into that build,The red lasers are sweet !!!!!You should make them pulse with the circuit as a speed indicator.
And the one by Fuzz Aldrin is way cool too !! I love the Fonts and color scheme very Star Wars.
Hey Fuzz you gotta link for those foils you used for the graphics ? That looks super pro,and way easier than the usual method.
Quote from: Fuzz Aldryn on April 15, 2010, 07:21:13 PM
Hi,
beautiful etch work. I personaly stopped etching my enclosures as it is way too time taking and sometimes unpredictable. Anyway I discovered a new method that works well for me - ceramic foils you usualy use to make your own coffee cups.:D No clear coating needed, no super skinny waterslide that rips off while trying to apply it.
Anyway, here's my (reworked) Echo Base V2 with true bypass.
(http://www.imagebanana.com/img/fwa2unwg/thumb/CIMG3328.JPG) (http://www.imagebanana.com/img/fwa2unwg/CIMG3328.JPG)
(http://www.imagebanana.com/img/xhy0qwmk/thumb/CIMG3329.JPG) (http://www.imagebanana.com/img/xhy0qwmk/CIMG3329.JPG)
Cheers
Helge
Hi Helge, That looks very nice! Can you please explain about the ceramic foils you used. I do not know this at all.
Thanks, Marc
Hi,
first thanks for your kind words. But I'm sorry, since I'm German I only can find german instrauctions for it - can't even find the right term for this kind of foil. Go to your local copyshop who offers also custom printed coffee cups and ask for it. There are also diy ceramic foils out there which work with inkjet printer but I don't recommand that - way more steps and less good results - spend that little extra money on your local copy dude and his laser printer.
How does work? Well, like the average watersilde decal. But since its laser printed you don't have to cover it with a small clearcoat film to protect it. Just throw it into the water, apply it to your enclosure, let it dry for several hours and then put into your oven at 170°C for about 40min. After that it's burned onto the enclosure and won't come off anymore. After that process it's also pretty resistent to scratches -tried to scratch it with scissors but no, no success it still sticks pretty well.
Cheers
Helge
Quote from: Fuzz Aldryn on April 16, 2010, 05:44:23 AM
Hi,
first thanks for your kind words. But I'm sorry, since I'm German I only can find german instrauctions for it - can't even find the right term for this kind of foil. Go to your local copyshop who offers also custom printed coffee cups and ask for it. There are also diy ceramic foils out there which work with inkjet printer but I don't recommand that - way more steps and less good results - spend that little extra money on your local copy dude and his laser printer.
How does work? Well, like the average watersilde decal. But since its laser printed you don't have to cover it with a small clearcoat film to protect it. Just throw it into the water, apply it to your enclosure, let it dry for several hours and then put into your oven at 170°C for about 40min. After that it's burned onto the enclosure and won't come off anymore. After that process it's also pretty resistent to scratches -tried to scratch it with scissors but no, no success it still sticks pretty well.
Cheers
Helge
Hi Helge,
Thanks for reacting.
What is the German word for it. It sounds like it is a waterslide decal??
Marc
Quote from: gitaar0 on April 16, 2010, 07:07:38 AM
Quote from: Fuzz Aldryn on April 16, 2010, 05:44:23 AM
Hi,
first thanks for your kind words. But I'm sorry, since I'm German I only can find german instrauctions for it - can't even find the right term for this kind of foil. Go to your local copyshop who offers also custom printed coffee cups and ask for it. There are also diy ceramic foils out there which work with inkjet printer but I don't recommand that - way more steps and less good results - spend that little extra money on your local copy dude and his laser printer.
How does work? Well, like the average watersilde decal. But since its laser printed you don't have to cover it with a small clearcoat film to protect it. Just throw it into the water, apply it to your enclosure, let it dry for several hours and then put into your oven at 170°C for about 40min. After that it's burned onto the enclosure and won't come off anymore. After that process it's also pretty resistent to scratches -tried to scratch it with scissors but no, no success it still sticks pretty well.
Cheers
Helge
Hi Helge,
Thanks for reacting.
What is the German word for it. It sounds like it is a waterslide decal??
Marc
Hi,
"keramikfolie" or "tassenfolie. And yes it is indeed a waterslide decal. A bit thicker and less damageable than the "normal" waterslide. Have a look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M20Q2aykIc8&feature=related Instead of protecting it with clearcoat you just put it into your oven at 170°C for about 40min.
And what I forgot to mention: You can easily drill through it after it is burned in.
(http://www.imagebanana.com/img/tm09vv6w/thumb/K1024_CIMG3268.JPG) (http://www.imagebanana.com/img/tm09vv6w/K1024_CIMG3268.JPG)
Cheers
Helge
Quote from: Fuzz Aldryn on April 16, 2010, 07:20:10 AM
Quote from: gitaar0 on April 16, 2010, 07:07:38 AM
Quote from: Fuzz Aldryn on April 16, 2010, 05:44:23 AM
Hi,
first thanks for your kind words. But I'm sorry, since I'm German I only can find german instrauctions for it - can't even find the right term for this kind of foil. Go to your local copyshop who offers also custom printed coffee cups and ask for it. There are also diy ceramic foils out there which work with inkjet printer but I don't recommand that - way more steps and less good results - spend that little extra money on your local copy dude and his laser printer.
How does work? Well, like the average watersilde decal. But since its laser printed you don't have to cover it with a small clearcoat film to protect it. Just throw it into the water, apply it to your enclosure, let it dry for several hours and then put into your oven at 170°C for about 40min. After that it's burned onto the enclosure and won't come off anymore. After that process it's also pretty resistent to scratches -tried to scratch it with scissors but no, no success it still sticks pretty well.
Cheers
Helge
Hi Helge,
Thanks for reacting.
What is the German word for it. It sounds like it is a waterslide decal??
Marc
Hi,
"keramikfolie" or "tassenfolie. And yes it is indeed a waterslide decal. A bit thicker and less damageable than the "normal" waterslide. Have a look here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M20Q2aykIc8&feature=related Instead of protecting it with clearcoat you just put it into your oven at 170°C for about 40min.
And what I forgot to mention: You can easily drill through it after it is burned in.
(http://www.imagebanana.com/img/tm09vv6w/thumb/K1024_CIMG3268.JPG) (http://www.imagebanana.com/img/tm09vv6w/K1024_CIMG3268.JPG)
Cheers
Helge
Ok, laser waterslide decals I know. Thanks
Yeah thanks, Papilio here in USA sells the same thing> vinyl water slide decals that you bake on for coffee mugs.
And you need a color laser printer for color graphics.
I am glad to know it looks so good and so durable when done properly,as they recomend allowing for alot of mistakes to get the sizing right.
Does it shrink alot when its baked?
Bryan
Quote from: Brymus on April 16, 2010, 01:15:28 PM
Yeah thanks, Papilio here in USA sells the same thing> vinyl water slide decals that you bake on for coffee mugs.
And you need a color laser printer for color graphics.
I am glad to know it looks so good and so durable when done properly,as they recomend allowing for alot of mistakes to get the sizing right.
Does it shrink alot when its baked?
Bryan
Mine does not. It measure before and after the process 105,5x55,5cm which ist my prefered size for Eddystone B typ enclosures. You only have to make clear that everything is 100% dry before put it into your oven otherwise it won't come out even. Another thing is it has to be 100% flat onto your enclosure - everything that goes around the rounded borders will lift and break of. So better be safe than sorry and stay away prox. 1mm to the border corners.
Here is my scratch test:D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-4mmB-sSbU
Cheers
Helge
Fuzz Aldryn, do you have any pics of the inside of your pedal? Also, which echo base layout did you use to get it into a 1590B enclosure? I would love to know.
Quote from: mattthegamer463 on April 17, 2010, 11:39:17 AM
Fuzz Aldryn, do you have any pics of the inside of your pedal? Also, which echo base layout did you use to get it into a 1590B enclosure? I would love to know.
That doesn't really look like a 1590B to me. I think it's the slightly bigger 125c. Taylor said his board should fit in there.
Quote from: YouAre on April 17, 2010, 11:48:30 AM
Quote from: mattthegamer463 on April 17, 2010, 11:39:17 AM
Fuzz Aldryn, do you have any pics of the inside of your pedal? Also, which echo base layout did you use to get it into a 1590B enclosure? I would love to know.
That doesn't really look like a 1590B to me. I think it's the slightly bigger 125c. Taylor said his board should fit in there.
No Sir, it is an Eddystone 27l34P which is the same size as a Hammond 1590B. Layout I used must be somewhere here on the forum - if I remind exactly it's the same that John Lyons sells.
Quote from: slacker on April 14, 2010, 04:32:21 PM
Glad you got it working. Some people have mentioned that it sounds a bit distorted especially with hot pickups, I've never noticed on mine.
The first thing to do would be to remove the 2 diodes connected to the feedback pot and see if that stops it.
Ok I pulled out the diodes and it doesn't seem to make any difference. Here is a very small clip (http://jonandtina.net/static/audio/distortedrepeats.mp3) of what I am hearing (the level pot is about 50%)
Is this correct?
Can any of you compare your working Echo Base to my (very small) MP3 demo above? Does it distort as much on the repeats?
Thanks in advance.
That doesn't sound right to me, I take it the loud sound is what you played and the quiet distorted sound is he delay?
I would double check all the resistor values around pins 12 - 16 of the PT2399 to make sure they are correct, also if you've got one try another PT2399, perhaps whatever killed your regulator damaged the chip as well.
Quote from: slacker on April 19, 2010, 03:25:34 PM
That doesn't sound right to me, I take it the loud sound is what you played and the quiet distorted sound is he delay?
I would double check all the resistor values around pins 12 - 16 of the PT2399 to make sure they are correct, also if you've got one try another PT2399, perhaps whatever killed your regulator damaged the chip as well.
Ugh. Resistors all test at their proper values. The only thing that doesn't seem right on the voltages of the PT2399 is pin 5 which reads 2.79v instead of 2.89v. Everything else is much closer to the voltages you posted before.
Too bad, I have to collect more stuff for another order including the chip. Oh well, it still sounds cool, it just limits the versatility somewhat.
Just trying to debug a few small issues with the echobase I just assembled (Taylor's PCB). It works quite well except for a few issues when the pots are set at certain levels..
If I turn the LFO depth pot right down it for some reason starts to hiss quite badly, but as soon as I turn that up past a 1/4 of the way it completely dissapears.
Also, if I have the Level pot past about 3/4 of the way up I can hear a clock tick, even though Taylor's pcb includes that 2.2uf cap from pin 7 of U1B to ground.
Has anyone come across the loud hissing only when the LFO depth pot is turned down? Any suggestions on what could be causing that?
And is there anything I could do to get rid of that ticking when the level pot is turned up?
I've read through this thread quite extensively, but haven't come across anything about the hissing from the LFO depth pot. Also haven't really seen any discussion of ticking when the 2.2uf cap has been in place.
Thanks for any help on the matter.
I think I've got the things in my previous post basically sorted out.. My next question is about distortion in the repeats.. I know that removing the clipping diodes and decreasing the gain on the op-amps lowers the distortion on the repeats, I've done that and noticed a decent change, it stays fairly clean with a clean signal going into it.
The only thing I'm noticing now is that if I run the delay after some hefty OD pedals or turn the gain up in my preamp (I'm running the delay pedal in the effects loop) the repeats become heavily distorted to the point that they almost seem to overload the pedal (sort of really heavy distortion and crackling almost).
Do I need to run this pedal before any OD? I thought that generally it's good practice to have the delay as late in the chain of effects as possible.
Any thoughts?
Quote from: thehoj on April 23, 2010, 06:24:36 PM
I think I've got the things in my previous post basically sorted out.. My next question is about distortion in the repeats.. I know that removing the clipping diodes and decreasing the gain on the op-amps lowers the distortion on the repeats, I've done that and noticed a decent change, it stays fairly clean with a clean signal going into it.
The only thing I'm noticing now is that if I run the delay after some hefty OD pedals or turn the gain up in my preamp (I'm running the delay pedal in the effects loop) the repeats become heavily distorted to the point that they almost seem to overload the pedal (sort of really heavy distortion and crackling almost).
Do I need to run this pedal before any OD? I thought that generally it's good practice to have the delay as late in the chain of effects as possible.
I have mine at the end, with almost all true bypass pedals in front, no gain pedals on and it still overdrives, as you may have heard above.
What do you mean about decreasing the gain of the opamp? How did you do that? I have a load of 4558 chips, but I figured those won't be as clean as the TL072s... or is that relevant in this circuit?
You can decrease gain by lowering the value of the resistor connecting the inverting (-) input and the output of the opamp. However, in my PCB, which thehoj is using I think, the input opamp does not have a resistor at all, so the gain can't be lowered there, it's already unity. You would only be lowering the output gain, and I don't see how that could be effecting the repeats at all, unless the distortion is coming from the opamp.
Quote from: Taylor on April 23, 2010, 09:34:51 PM
You can decrease gain by lowering the value of the resistor connecting the inverting (-) input and the output of the opamp. However, in my PCB, which thehoj is using I think, the input opamp does not have a resistor at all, so the gain can't be lowered there, it's already unity. You would only be lowering the output gain, and I don't see how that could be effecting the repeats at all, unless the distortion is coming from the opamp.
What I meant was just halving the 47K resistors (putting second 47K resistors in parallel with them). That did decrease the volume of the repeats by quite a bit though, so I've reversed that. The distortion of the repeats isn't bad at all with those 1n4148 diodes out of the circuit now. I just have to have the delay pedal basically right at the start of my effects chain, which I had thought would sound pretty bad, but I actually like, the repeats don't distort really, and it's sounds pretty natural even with the effects affecting the delayed signal. I guess this is just the way I need to use the pedal?
I do have a surprising amount of hiss when the pedal is in the loop though (even while disengaged), it's not too bad but definitely noticeable compared to not having the pedal in the loop at all.. So I'm thinking I may just use 3dpt switch to bypass the circuit completely when the pedal is disengaged.
As a few people have mentioned distortion problems recently I decided to take some measurements off mine to see if I can pinpoint what the problem might be. I fed the input with a 1Khz sine wave and adjusted the volume until I got visible distortion of the wave on my scope. The test was done with all the controls turned down, so it doesn't take into account the intentional clipping caused by the diodes.
I measured at the output first, to see when the input and output buffers would clip, and the signal was clean up until about 5 volts peak to peak, after this it clipped harshly. To me this says the buffers have plenty of headroom, so if you're getting distortion when the pedal is bypassed there's either something wrong with it or you just need to turn down whatever is in front of it.
Like most stompboxes it's not designed to go in effects loops though, so depending on the level of your loop I suppose the signal could be too hot for it.
Using a different opamp in place of the TL072 might give it more headroom but as 5 volts is the same as the PT2399's supply voltage it is going to clip at that point anyway.
Next I measured the signal at pin 14 of the PT2399, this is the output of the chip. The signal stayed clean with an input of up to about 400mV then it clipped. So I guess this confirms what people have said that hot pickups or a loud boost, overdrive, fuzz or whatever will cause distortion. I guess I must just have wimpy pickups and not run my pedals very loud because I've never heard any distortion from mine.
I'd try the suggestion from thehoj and others and reduce the value of the 47k resistors, maybe change them to 22k - 30k. To stop this reducing the level of the delay you need to also decrease the 10k resistor after the level pot by a similar proportion.
I am having a problem with my build, i've made it sound but as i turned the feedback higher, it starts to destroy the sound with just feedback motor machine sound, and as i turned the speed lower while my feedback is at zero position, the motor sound turns on again. I know this is quite done, but my question, is there any possibilities that my PT2399 chip was damaged? coz i can hear the delay sound at feedback - 0 , and speed - max. therefore, its good, besides the tweaking of those pots, it became horrible.. what could possibly be the problem?? :)
:) im trying to resolve this..
Quote from: slacker on April 24, 2010, 07:57:29 AM
I'd try the suggestion from thehoj and others and reduce the value of the 47k resistors, maybe change them to 22k - 30k. To stop this reducing the level of the delay you need to also decrease the 10k resistor after the level pot by a similar proportion.
I reduced these to 22k, and the 10k down to 3.3k and it's MUCH MUCH better! The repeats are much cleaner... I even put the diodes back in, just to keep the character of the delay. I may need to drop the 3.3k even more, as at the moment I have to turn the level pot up higher than I'd like.
There's also a motorboating sound (if I understand motorboating correctly) now when the level pot is maxed. I'll have to reread the thread to see if it's been mentioned, but for now, I just won't turn it up that high.
Ok sound clips, now that it's running well!
East Wes (http://jonandtina.net/static/audio/EastWes.mp3) (half without, half with EB engaged)
Cold Shot Vibe (http://jonandtina.net/static/audio/ColdShotVibe.mp3)
Godin Freeway Classic into my Vox AD30VT (Boutique CL mode)
Needless to say, I'm happy!
I threw together a rebote 2.5 but lost interest in it because of the amount of noise that was present when the delay pot was over 1/3 up. I've just replaced the ceramic caps I originally put in with film, it has made some difference to the noise level but not enough for my liking.
The general opinion on here is that the echobase is cleaner than the rebote, yet it effectively has less filtering going on. Is this possible?
Ta
Quote from: slacker on April 02, 2010, 04:51:42 PM
Cool, I'll have a look at the original PCB and see if I can show how to add the mods. I presume the PCB John's using is the anonymousfacelesscoward one?
Looks like with a bit of trace cutting and a couple of extra jumpers the new buffers can be added to the PCB.
Hi Ian,
Did you ever find out how to mod the original board to add the new buffer?
Thanks, Marc
I had a look at and it looked doable, I didn't get round to actually trying it though. I'll have a look over the weekend.
Yo fellas, I've added several mods including the "humbucker-friendly" resistors to the Echo Base PDF:
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Taylor/
Hey.
Just built this thing using a layout I tried making myself.
It seems to work alright - meaning I can get delays and modulation.
However, I get some pretty bad hum...even with the input grounded.
I'm in the proces of comparing it to the schematic, and haven't found any errors yet.
Also, the voltages seem ok, in relation to what's written at the start of the thread.
When poking around in it, I found that the first two 2M2 resistors by the input is very sensitive - when I put a finger close to them, I get a very audible noise.
Is this normal or?
Regards.
I was thinking about adding an expression pedal jack to my echo base, o control feedback.
Can you help me?
Is there an updated thread or sticky on this pedal that shows the newest version mods, etc, only? There's just too many pages and thread on this. Thanks alot!
As far as I know, the closest thing to that is my PDF:
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Taylor/
But it's aimed at my PCB so if you're using another layout or perfing/vero-ing it's not of much help.
Hey, was wondering if anyone might be able to offer any advice. Built my echobase sometime ago, it all worked fine then the feedback pot stopped working, tried a new pot, No good. Anyway left it, tested it out again and now everything except the speed and feedback knobs work, could it be ive blown one of the tl072s while messing with it?thanks for any advice x
When you say the feedback pot doesn't work, what does the pedal do?
If you just get one repeat then the problem has to be with the feedback pot or a bad connection to one of the components connected to it.
To figure out what the problem is with the speed pot measure the voltage on the pin of the opamp that connects to the 240k resistor before the speed pot. The voltage should go up and down between about 3 and 7 volts and the speed it changes at should be controlled by the speed pot. If it doesn't do this then you have a problem with that opamp or with one of the components connected to it or a bad connection to one or more of the components.
If you get a changing voltage then measure the voltage at the lug of the speed pot that connect to the 240k resistor and the wiper of the pot, also measure at the base of the PNP transistor, you should get a changing voltage at all those points.
If you don't then the point the voltage disapears is where the problem is.
If you get a changing voltage at all those places then check all the connections to the PNP transistor and pin 6 of the PT2399.
Ah thanks that sounds like some really good suggestions i'll try them all out when i get a bit of time, thanks a lot x
Quote from: beatnik on July 09, 2010, 11:19:30 AM
I was thinking about adding an expression pedal jack to my echo base, o control feedback.
Can you help me?
1. Get two stereo jacks
2. Get a stereo cable
3. Connect each lug, both from PCB and from the pot in your expression pedal to the respective lug on the jack (i.e. if you connect the wiper to the tip in the pedal, connect the tip to where the wiper would go on the PCB.)
4. Make sure your grounds are connected to the sleeve**
so i just started noodling around to try and resolve the problem and the feedback pot works if i hook up the other side of the resistor, (R17 on the vero layout) is it safe to just wire it to that point instead or shall i actually find out why it isnt working?many thanks
Does it go into self oscillation really easily with it connected there?
If you wire it to the other side of R17 and it works then all that can really be wrong is that R17 is the wrong value or is broken or you've got a short across D2 and D3. I'd fix it properly :)
I thought it would be one of the 2 problems you mentioned, either resistor or the diodes, im pretty sure it worked at one stage so is it possible to have blown a diode or somehting?thanks again for the help
Quote from: Taylor on May 18, 2010, 11:40:22 PM
Yo fellas, I've added several mods including the "humbucker-friendly" resistors to the Echo Base PDF:
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Taylor/
Hi, why can't I see the pdf on that link? Could you attach it here?
Hello,
After clicking on the link you provided, clicked on no thumbnail above Echo Base build PDF updated 051810 . On the page that takes you to look for Download document , (second column upper left) click on that and you should get to the necessary document. You can't attach pdf's in a post here so you need to provide a link to any pdf's you'd like to show. Hope that works for you!
dave
Thanks for helping with that Dave. Yeah, the gallery does do its best to hide the PDFs on those pages. I may start hosting them myself, but I do like the idea of having them hosted externally so if I get hit by a bus, people can still get the PDFs.
thank you! I couldn't see "download document"
I'm getting blind... and I'm an optician too! :o :icon_biggrin:
So, I've read almost every post of this topic, this pdf but I can't find an answer so i have to do a question: for the extra time mod with 2 pt2399 should I use a stereo pot for the delay time (if so: where do I have to solder its lugs?) or I can use a mono pot to drive both ICs?
Thank you in advance :)
Quote from: DLC86 on September 06, 2010, 07:45:30 PM
thank you! I couldn't see "download document"
I'm getting blind... and I'm an optician too! :o :icon_biggrin:
I lose things under my nose all the time, have to get a second pair of eyes to help me flush out the missing item even though it may be sitting right there out in the open, aging sucks!
dave
Ok, so I've studied it a bit and thought a stereo pot (or the 2nd one) should substitute R2 in the add-on board, and the 39k resistor near the time pot in the main board should have the same value of R1 in the daughter board to have the same delay in the two chips, please correct me if I'm wrong :icon_rolleyes:
But now I have another doubt: how the feedback works? I mean, if I put these 2 ICs in series (e.g: having the same delay time) won't I have the repeats with half time after the first one?
Example: den - - - den - den - den - den
^ [ ]
dry note repeats
I think to prevent this there should be a sort of "shared" feedback (I don't know how to explain it better), is this the case?
Example: den - - - den - - - den - - -
Please clarify me how it works, thanks :)
Hey gang,
i just built mine from the board that Taylor did and I love this pedal. I have a few general questions, sorry if some of it may have been covered before:
1) What are you guys doing to combat the clock noise? Can I swap out the "level" pot with a different value to maybe restrict the overall level? The noise only gets bad when the level pot is at 75%+
2) Is there a way to clean up the repeats, or is it a limitation of the PT2399? I know it's intended to be a low-fi effect but wondering oif that's a result of the circuit or chip.
3) anyone experience this: pedal will pass dry signal in both modes (bypass and on) but I get no repeats until i unplug/re-plug the power?
Thanks!
Quote from: DLC86 on September 07, 2010, 08:05:20 AM
Ok, so I've studied it a bit and thought a stereo pot (or the 2nd one) should substitute R2 in the add-on board,
Assuming you mean this layout? http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg560977#msg560977 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg560977#msg560977) then yes you can replace R2 with a pot or a stereo pot to control both chips at once. You don't need to change anything else.
The feedback is taken from the output of the second chip and then fed back into the first one, so the repeats are the same length as the total time from both chips.
Quote from: Leftwing73 on September 07, 2010, 11:17:12 AM
1) What are you guys doing to combat the clock noise? Can I swap out the "level" pot with a different value to maybe restrict the overall level? The noise only gets bad when the level pot is at 75%+
If you want to lower the maximum volume of the delay, then trace from the wiper of the level pot , the signal goes through a 100n capacitor and then a 10k resistor, sorry I don't know which one it is on Taylor's board. If you make the 10k resistor bigger that will lower the maximum volume of the delay. Changing the value of the pot won't do very much.
Quote
2) Is there a way to clean up the repeats, or is it a limitation of the PT2399? I know it's intended to be a low-fi effect but wondering oif that's a result of the circuit or chip.
The repeats should be fairly clean at short times on longer times it gets a bit muddy, but that's mostly a limitation of the chip. You need to filter out more highs otherwise the noise gets really bad.
Quote
3) anyone experience this: pedal will pass dry signal in both modes (bypass and on) but I get no repeats until i unplug/re-plug the power?
I haven't heard of this problem before. I know if you make the resistance between pin 6 and ground too small the chip can do this, but I've never had that problem with either of mine. If you set the delay time somewhere in the middle before you turn the pedal on does that stop it doing it?
With what you've said about the noise problem as well as this I wonder if you have a bad PT2399 or a bad connection somewhere around pin 6.
Quote from: slacker on September 07, 2010, 04:30:58 PM
If you want to lower the maximum volume of the delay, then trace from the wiper of the level pot , the signal goes through a 100n capacitor and then a 10k resistor, sorry I don't know which one it is on Taylor's board. If you make the 10k resistor bigger that will lower the maximum volume of the delay. Changing the value of the pot won't do very much.
It's the 10k directly to the left of pin 1 of the 4066.
Quote from: slacker on September 07, 2010, 04:20:01 PM
Assuming you mean this layout? http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg560977#msg560977 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg560977#msg560977) then yes you can replace R2 with a pot or a stereo pot to control both chips at once. You don't need to change anything else.
Yes, I meant that layout, I forgot to specify
Quote from: slacker on September 07, 2010, 04:20:01 PM
The feedback is taken from the output of the second chip and then fed back into the first one, so the repeats are the same length as the total time from both chips.
That's exactly what I wanted to know, so I could put all the add-on boards I want... But another doubt is coming... I think it could be deduced by your answer but I havent enough knowledge to do it, so...
I can totally control the feedback using one pot, right? Or is there a default fixed resisitor in the daughter board that I could substitute using a stereo pot (like R2 for the time pot)?
thank you very much ;)
Quote from: slacker on September 07, 2010, 04:30:58 PM
Quote from: Leftwing73 on September 07, 2010, 11:17:12 AM
1) What are you guys doing to combat the clock noise? Can I swap out the "level" pot with a different value to maybe restrict the overall level? The noise only gets bad when the level pot is at 75%+
If you want to lower the maximum volume of the delay, then trace from the wiper of the level pot , the signal goes through a 100n capacitor and then a 10k resistor, sorry I don't know which one it is on Taylor's board. If you make the 10k resistor bigger that will lower the maximum volume of the delay. Changing the value of the pot won't do very much.
Quote
2) Is there a way to clean up the repeats, or is it a limitation of the PT2399? I know it's intended to be a low-fi effect but wondering oif that's a result of the circuit or chip.
The repeats should be fairly clean at short times on longer times it gets a bit muddy, but that's mostly a limitation of the chip. You need to filter out more highs otherwise the noise gets really bad.
Quote
3) anyone experience this: pedal will pass dry signal in both modes (bypass and on) but I get no repeats until i unplug/re-plug the power?
I haven't heard of this problem before. I know if you make the resistance between pin 6 and ground too small the chip can do this, but I've never had that problem with either of mine. If you set the delay time somewhere in the middle before you turn the pedal on does that stop it doing it?
With what you've said about the noise problem as well as this I wonder if you have a bad PT2399 or a bad connection somewhere around pin 6.
Thanks for the help, ian. I'll throw in another PT2399 and see if the issues clear up.
Quote from: DLC86 on September 07, 2010, 07:36:10 PM
That's exactly what I wanted to know, so I could put all the add-on boards I want...
Yes in theory you can connect as many of the add on boards as you like. In practice it would probably get too noisy to be useful though after not very many.
Quote
But another doubt is coming... I think it could be deduced by your answer but I havent enough knowledge to do it, so...
I can totally control the feedback using one pot, right? Or is there a default fixed resisitor in the daughter board that I could substitute using a stereo pot (like R2 for the time pot)?
thank you very much ;)
Yes you only need one feedback pot, the signal just goes through however many add on boards you want, then you take the feedback from the last one and feed it back into the first one. You could also add feedback pots at any of the boards outputs and send it back to any of the previous ones to different length repeats.
Quote from: slacker on September 10, 2010, 12:29:39 PM
Yes you only need one feedback pot, the signal just goes through however many add on boards you want, then you take the feedback from the last one and feed it back into the first one. You could also add feedback pots at any of the boards outputs and send it back to any of the previous ones to different length repeats.
Getting into Arnoud's nifty echorec-esq delay :)
;D
Quote from: slacker on September 10, 2010, 12:29:39 PM
Quote from: DLC86 on September 07, 2010, 07:36:10 PM
That's exactly what I wanted to know, so I could put all the add-on boards I want...
Yes in theory you can connect as many of the add on boards as you like. In practice it would probably get too noisy to be useful though after not very many.
Quote
But another doubt is coming... I think it could be deduced by your answer but I havent enough knowledge to do it, so...
I can totally control the feedback using one pot, right? Or is there a default fixed resisitor in the daughter board that I could substitute using a stereo pot (like R2 for the time pot)?
thank you very much ;)
Yes you only need one feedback pot, the signal just goes through however many add on boards you want, then you take the feedback from the last one and feed it back into the first one. You could also add feedback pots at any of the boards outputs and send it back to any of the previous ones to different length repeats.
Thank you very much, now everything's clearer
Hey , just finally got this working!! (after numerous debugging hours - not really suitable for my second build!!).
All I can say is --AWESOME!!!!!!! Ian , you are a genius , thanks mate!! ;D ;D ;D
My echo base a week ago suddenly died(for about a year of usage), a dead PT2399 and the 4066 CMOS. I don't know how did it happened. It's giving me headaches really during live situation before it died. It exhibits some weird noises(such as LFO ticking) and switching malfunctions. Luckily, I got a spare PT2399 chip and decided to revise the layout and use JFET(J113) switching in place of 4066, a separate voltage dividers of the in/out buffers and the LFO. Delay trailing feature is still there. I would like to post the layout if someone's interested.
Quote from: DimebuGG on September 19, 2010, 05:56:34 AM
My echo base a week ago suddenly died(for about a year of usage), a dead PT2399 and the 4066 CMOS. I don't know how did it happened. It's giving me headaches really during live situation before it died. It exhibits some weird noises(such as LFO ticking) and switching malfunctions. Luckily, I got a spare PT2399 chip and decided to revise the layout and use JFET(J113) switching in place of 4066, a separate voltage dividers of the in/out buffers and the LFO. Delay trailing feature is still there. I would like to post the layout if someone's interested.
I'm interested :)
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b38ce0b/n/echobase.PDF (http://www.filefactory.com/file/b38ce0b/n/echobase.PDF)
PCB measures 5.4cm x 5.7cm.
Quote from: DimebuGG on September 20, 2010, 08:40:06 AM
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b38ce0b/n/echobase.PDF (http://www.filefactory.com/file/b38ce0b/n/echobase.PDF)
PCB measures 5.4cm x 5.7cm.
Thank you, very compact layout ;)
It's already verified, right?
Quote from: DLC86 on September 20, 2010, 06:24:58 PM
Thank you, very compact layout ;)
It's already verified, right?
Of course. ;)
Hi DimebuGG, could I use a j112 in place of a j113 in your layout? I saw the datasheets and the differences are in drain current, G-S cutoff voltage and D-S resistance. will it work properly? If not, could you suggest me a valid substitute for this FET?
Thank you again ;)
Dumb question, but I would assume the 2SK113 will work in place of the J113, correct?
Quote from: DLC86 on September 24, 2010, 03:38:17 PM
Hi DimebuGG, could I use a j112 in place of a j113 in your layout? I saw the datasheets and the differences are in drain current, G-S cutoff voltage and D-S resistance. will it work properly? If not, could you suggest me a valid substitute for this FET?
Thank you again ;)
I've found the answer on your signature site, I can even use a common j201. Thank you anyway
Quote from: Barcode80 on September 24, 2010, 04:54:21 PM
Dumb question, but I would assume the 2SK113 will work in place of the J113, correct?
I don't know if they are the same (I think so), you can check the datasheet
I'm no expert in electronics but I suppose those FETs will work. Better yet contact the electronic gurus in here. ;). I only used J113 since it's the only available FET I had which I removed from an old DOD pedal and also the only one with the "D S G" pinout(facing flat side). I could have used 2SK30's or 2SK184's which are commonly used in Boss pedals.
Quote from: DLC86 on September 24, 2010, 03:38:17 PM
could I use a j112 in place of a j113 in your layout?
I think so. :)
hi there,
First of all I would like to thank Slacker for this cool project! I etched my own pcb using anonymousfacelesscowards layout, also tried all the latest mods (thnx Taylor for all-in-one pdf, had to do a little trace cutting and extra wiring). The effect is great, the flashing light is sexy ;D!
My PT-80 delay didnt sount that good the decay was gated, so i'll be boxing EB instead. I had some distortion with my dimarzio pickups, so i replaced two 47k with 22k, that solved the distortion problem but it also made the repeats sounding thin. Next thing i'll do is try two 33k insted of 22k maybe it'll bring some life in to them :)
Ed
Hello
my english is not good and after reading the 45 pages I'm a little confused
This PCB is correct?
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html
thanks
Hi
Yes that PCB is correct.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAp9nKNCuQs
This is not an echo base anymore, but it was based on it, using the PWM output of a PIC 16F684 instead of the LFO. Please let me know what you think, or any suggestions on how to improve it's functionality.
Brief explanation:
Left Led (red) - tempo indicator.
Red and Green led - binary sequence that shows the current mode selection:
00 - Tempo and Load preset 1
01 - multiplier and Load preset 2
10 - mod speed and Save preset 1
11 - mod depth and Save preset 2
One button is for tap tempo, the second cycles through the 4 modes, and the third saves or loads a preset depending on which mode is selected.
The values are changed with a rotary encoder. The other two knobs are for the delay feedback and level.
When the unit is turned on, it loads preset 1.
Looks interesting, nice work :)
I just built mine up from Taylors PCB.
A big thank you to all involved, Slacker, Taylor. This is a great delay/modulation effect. Mine fired up first go, except for the fact that I had wired all pots in reverse, but 10 minutes later it was doing what it should. An excellent pedal! Cheers again!
Cheers :)
Just out of curiosity, I can use a 1N5819 schottky as a protection diode, right?
or will bad things happen to me if I put in an opposite-polarity jack? :icon_evil:
Should be fine. Probably even better than a silicon, because of the lower forward drop of a Schottky.
Nice. I can finally populate it
Thanks!
Hey, just getting onto the Echo Base boat here. I was reading through some of the older pages, but some links are broken. Anyone have the diagram for an effects loop on the Echo Base?
Also, is a dual PT2399 mod here possible? What about Tap Tempo? I understand the PTAP isn't being used any more, unfortunately...
Quote from: azrael on December 02, 2010, 07:49:32 PM
Hey, just getting onto the Echo Base boat here. I was reading through some of the older pages, but some links are broken. Anyone have the diagram for an effects loop on the Echo Base?
Also, is a dual PT2399 mod here possible? What about Tap Tempo? I understand the PTAP isn't being used any more, unfortunately...
I'm not sure about the PT2399 double up but I think it was mentioned in this thread that it is possible. ALso, there is a kit Aron sells (STORE link at the top of the forum page) called Taptation which is a tap tempo add-on for PT2399 circuits.
I remember looking there before I bought a PCB from Taylor, and not seeing any.
Double checked just now, I don't see them in stock anymore. :(
There's a double time mod that me and Valoosj did, the discussion about it starts on page 8 of this thread, there's a schematic and a layout.
For info about fx loops have a look at my post here http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39579&postorder=asc&start=375 (http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39579&postorder=asc&start=375)
Quote from: azrael on December 02, 2010, 08:20:08 PM
I remember looking there before I bought a PCB from Taylor, and not seeing any.
Double checked just now, I don't see them in stock anymore. :(
Yeah, for some reason it's not on there anymore. Odd.
Awesome, thanks slacker!
If only I could get tap tempo now haha...maybe someone has an extra board...
ran into a weird one today. I have an echobase build from taylor's pcb. I found out with the echobase off if I put my amp into standby mode and strum the guitar quick.
When I put the amp out of standby mode, the echobase generates white noise.
Until I unplug its power and plug it back in.
I'm guessing the issue is with the buffer...any one else run into this?
Aaron
I would like download PCB from http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html but I can't save this PCB to ORYGINAL Size. How to download this pcb in PDF file ? ofcourse to oryginal and appropriate size for all elements. If someone give me this PDF I will be really grateful! Greetings
Those files don't come out of DIY layout creator with the correct sizing. Resize the layout to 200.25 dpi and it will print marvelously.
this brings me to the question...
why do we always have to resize?....surely this breaks up/squares/pixelates the image, ???
or is it down to the author...hmmmmm.....you would think it was ready to print on a pdf eh?.. ::)
Quote from: deadastronaut on December 22, 2010, 12:40:30 PM
this brings me to the question...
why do we always have to resize?....surely this breaks up/squares/pixelates the image, ???
or is it down to the author...hmmmmm.....you would think it was ready to print on a pdf eh?.. ::)
1) it's a lot easier to code an export to gif than pdf.
2) when you resize to a smaller image, there is no pixelation. that's only going to happen when enlarging.
I personally use bullzip pdf printer to print a lot of my layout work straight to pdf from express, but that's a lot to expect of someone providing free layouts...
perhaps you are looking the gift horse in the mouth a bit? :icon_smile:
I tried prepare this PDF but I can't check appropriate size. I don't have printer in home. Can someone print this PDF and check it with several elements? I print this image to pdf file, I used to bullzip PDF printer and next Foxit PDF editor to rotate image. Sorry my english is not really good :) this link to pdf http://www.speedyshare.com/files/25858037/echobase_VER1.pdf
Quote from: Barcode80 on December 22, 2010, 02:37:19 PM
Quote from: deadastronaut on December 22, 2010, 12:40:30 PM
this brings me to the question...
why do we always have to resize?....surely this breaks up/squares/pixelates the image, ???
or is it down to the author...hmmmmm.....you would think it was ready to print on a pdf eh?.. ::)
perhaps you are looking the gift horse in the mouth a bit? :icon_smile:
yeah, perhaps.. :icon_wink:
i just thought the original author would have it ready to print, if they were going to the effort of putting it in a pdf..just seems like it would make sense
rather than resizing every time... :P
Here, I've made a ready to print pdf from anonymousfacelesscoward's layout:
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/barcode80/echobase.pdf.html (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/barcode80/echobase.pdf.html)
just hit "download document"
Barcode80 Thank You! I think that very much people will be grateful for you. Greetings!
Why do you post the old version again?
The buffers in that version produce way too much hiss. (That´s why I never used my first version Echo Base!)
There are better layouts from Taylor and Dimebugg that include the improved buffers that slacker posted a while ago...
So... Could you give here 100% correct the best of project echo base? From Taylor and Dimebugg latest final version.
Edit:
I looking for this layout from Taylor http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Taylor/ but I don't see PCB layout, in pdf documents is only parts of list but not PCB layout. Hm...
Crap, I just got done building a PT-80 that you could switch in the delay block for the SHecho. I thought I was all sitting high but dammit, now I gotta build this. Got chorus and vibe?? Aw man.
Quote from: matej_mlody on December 25, 2010, 07:13:04 PM
So... Could you give here 100% correct the best of project echo base? From Taylor and Dimebugg latest final version.
Edit:
I looking for this layout from Taylor http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Taylor/ but I don't see PCB layout, in pdf documents is only parts of list but not PCB layout. Hm...
taylor's layout is for his prefabbed board which is multi-layered and can't really be etched by hand. If you want to use that one, you will have to buy a board from Taylor.
for that pdf i posted, i just picked the first one, forgot that it had been updated for the buffering. I'll correct and re-post in a bit.
Quote from: Barcode80 on December 25, 2010, 10:07:37 PM
taylor's layout is for his prefabbed board which is multi-layered and can't really be etched by hand. If you want to use that one, you will have to buy a board from Taylor.
...that´s a good choice, I think. His board looks very well-made and it´s quite small.
If you want to etch a board yourself, use Dimebuggs version (posted a few sides back)
btw: Does Dimebuggs version fit into a Hammond-B enclosure? If I ever built the Echo Base again, I would really like to make it that small.
Quote from: DimebuGG on September 20, 2010, 08:40:06 AM
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b38ce0b/n/echobase.PDF (http://www.filefactory.com/file/b38ce0b/n/echobase.PDF)
PCB measures 5.4cm x 5.7cm.
Passt.
I made a list of all the mods I found in this thread, correct me if I missed one. It's hard to always search all the pages for a specific mod.
double delay time http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg560977#msg560977
double delay time schematic http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasemod.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
hold (infinite) delay http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg689765#msg689765
tempo indicator http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg604091#msg604091
blend/mix pot (remove vol. pot) http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg599999#msg599999
envelope detector http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg586937#msg586937
wave shape http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg518244#msg518244
modulation kill switch http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=81668.msg676920#msg676920
wiring http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg571675#msg571675
vero http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/echobasefinal.jpg.html
anonymousfacelesscoward pdf http://chawk.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf
Is the tap tempo mod really that easy to build? http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg628311#msg628311
I know there is another thread http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=81668.0 but I'm really tired now I'm going to read it tomorrow :D
Quote from: tuckster on December 27, 2010, 02:29:14 PM
Is the tap tempo mod really that easy to build? http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg628311#msg628311
I know there is another thread http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=81668.0 but I'm really tired now I'm going to read it tomorrow :D
The PTAP is no longer available. The only thing right now for tap tempo PT2399 is that Taptation available in Aron's store at the top of the forum. But it also hasn't been available for a while. I think Aron will have them at some point.
Check this out http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45688&sid=2a706a4dceffdc3a9bb89a3efff31ba1 (http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45688&sid=2a706a4dceffdc3a9bb89a3efff31ba1) the Echo Base goes modular :D
Ah, cool! If I ever get the time to begin my modular, I have 4 EB PCBs built up for it with pots wired that way.
Quote from: roseblood11 on December 26, 2010, 08:41:03 AM
btw: Does Dimebuggs version fit into a Hammond-B enclosure? If I ever built the Echo Base again, I would really like to make it that small.
I housed mine in a 125-B enclosure with a lot more spaces left. Bet it would fit in a 1590B types.
hey slacker..
how do you turn ON this circuit?
did you connect the 9V to the input jack so it would turn ON only when an input jack is inserted?
is the 9V still supplying the circuit even if it is bypassed?
You can wire it up so the power is only on when the input jack is inserted, just copy one of the wiring diagrams at General Guitar Gadgets or whatever. I never bother doing that though because I only ever use a power supply and that is only really useful for batteries.
Like all pedals, the power is supplied all the time whether it is bypassed or not.
What is the best place to buy the PT2399 chip in UK ?
I found it is available here:
http://www.doctortweek.co.uk/
Is this a good supplier ?
Thanks in advance for any help.
I've never used him but other people here seem to like doctortweek.
Many thanks.
One more thing, Will the strip-board layout fit in a Hammond 1590B (119x94x30) enclosure ?
If not what is the best enclosure dimensions ?
Yeah the stripboard fits in a 1590B.
(http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebguts.jpg)
@slacker
what will be the disadvantage if i rewired it in a way that the circuit will turn off when bypassed?
anyways, if you have a distortion pedal, a delay pedal and a noise gate, which pedal would you prefer to come first if you connect these in series?how would you arrange the 3 pedals in a way that you would still get a nice guitar sound output?
The disadvantage will be that no sound will come out :D
The bypass just switches the delay on and off, the dry signal passes through the effect all the time. Even on pedals where this doesn't happen turning the power off in bypass is normally a bad idea, because you get pops or other strange noises when you turn the power back on.
Delays normally go after distortion pedals, noise gate either before or after the distortion depending on which sounds best to you.
will it (noise gate) not affect the delay if you place the noise gate after the delay?
@slacker
i want to ask you something about true bypass..
i have sent you a PM.
is it ok if you make this into a true bypass?
will you still have the tails effect?
because i think if you make it a true bypass, then the output signal will be instantly cut off when bypassed and the delay signal will not die out naturally..
Quote from: mr_deadmaxxx on January 17, 2011, 11:38:29 PM
is it ok if you make this into a true bypass?
will you still have the tails effect?
because i think if you make it a true bypass, then the output signal will be instantly cut off when bypassed and the delay signal will not die out naturally..
You can't make this true bypass and still keep the tails effect, for the reason you state. The whole purpose of the electronic switching in this is to allow the tails.
Now technically you could make this true bypass while maintaining tails, if you programmed a microcontroller to control 2 relays: one for input and one for output. You switch the input directly when the pedal is bypassed. Then the microcontroller waits a few seconds and switches the output. This isn't something you could just mod into the circuit, though, it would be a complete redesign.
Can't you just wire it like this, and connect the board out with the output?
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:c3Fz9EZU7CSr9M:http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j6/IvIark_2006/DIY/3dpt_skreddy.gif&t=1)
Nice idea Yorick, but I'm afraid it won't work. The output of the pedal is a low impedance, and you'd be connecting it to the signal path so it would completely load down your signal so you'd get no sound or hardly any.
Taylor's relay idea either with a micro controller or some old school logic to generate the delay in the switching is the only way to keep the tails and make it true bypass.
How about my idea and putting a simple blender in between? Would that solve the issue?
Yeah a simple active blender would work, but that wouldn't be true bypass and, unless I'm missing something, the end result would just be the same as what the pedal already does.
Hah yes, off course, stupid of me ::)
I guess true bypass and the echo base will never be a good marriage if you want some tails.
Ya really need true bypass tho? Its just one pedal.
A simpler (electronically) way to do it is just to have the normal EB bypass switch, and a second true bypass switch if you're really into TB. Hit the normal bypass, let your tails die off, then hit true bypass to maintain yer tonez.
Or you could quit worrying about differences only a dog can hear ;)
It doesn't matter all that much to me, just wondering about the possibilities.
I built the stripboard version of Echo Base today and and currently testing the circuit outside the enclosure. I have some questions related to
the LFO section. From the measurements I did the LFO seems to work from ~0.55Hz to 20.79Hz, however, the output amplitude is not constant
across the frequency range. It varies from 100mVpp to 360mVpp, respectively. Also, for the lower frequencies the waveform is not triangular any more.
Is this normal or should I look for errors in my implementation ?
(http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/cctsim808/lfo1.jpg)
(http://s703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/cctsim808/lfo2.jpg)
I noticed on your picture there's a box that says AC, I guess that means you're measuring AC, which would explain your results. You need to be measuring DC.
If you measure straight from the opamp you should get about 3 volts peak to peak across the whole speed range.
The range of speeds is correct.
I see, for the very low frequency setting the oscillation appears as dc and it is blocked because of the setting.
I'll check it again with the dc option enabled, many thanks.
Another thing I noticed was related to the SPEED pot. It seems that the range ~1.5Hz - 20.79Hz is covered between 0 and 500k and
the remaining 500k rotation only covers ~1 Hz. I was wondering if there is a better way to utilize the SPEED range maybe by using a reverse log pot (?).
Yeah that's right, the AC setting probably has a capacitor to block DC, like the input capacitor in most pedals. This along with the input impedance of the scope will make a high pass filter so only frequencies above a certain speed will pass through.
A reverse log pot might work better and spread the speeds out more evenly, other similar designs use them. I just used linear because it worked well enough for me and I know some people find it hard to get reverse log pots.
hope someone is watching this as i'm going crazy...
built this today, and i'm getting no joy from it at all. nothing. i've checked every track and i've got no breaks or jumps.
i'm getting 2.9V across the battery when hooked up to the circuit, and same on the input of the voltage reg. any ideas at all what could be dropping the voltage down so heavily?
Sounds like a bum battery. Once you measured at the battery itself, you eliminated the significance of any voltage drop. If you are getting that little voltage across the battery, you have a dead battery.
@poodlebra
It might be best to open a new thread with this issue for a better response. This first post of yours is buried 49 pages deep in an older thread. I would also check out the sticky "DEBUGGING-What to do when it doesn't work" at the top, and be prepared with voltage readings and other pertinent information.
Welcome to this place.
thanks for the responses. tried three batteries (that's why i was so puzzled). i'll repost as suggested, and maybe try with a wallwart too, though plugging things into walls when they don't work always gives me the heebygeebies.
If the voltage is dropping before the regulator then you have something causing a partial short. This could be a small bit of solder between tracks, an incorrect component value or a bad IC. If you've used sockets remove all the chips and then measure the voltage on the input and output of the regulator, if you now get 9 volts and 5 volts, then replace the chips one by one. Hopefully that will show you if one of the chips is bad.
If the voltage is still wrong with all the chips removed then you need to check all the places that should have 9 volts to see if you can find the short. If that fails to fix it then the regulator could be bad.
i did find a 4.7k that was in instead of a 47k between 11-14 on the pt2399. voltage now down to .65V!
i disconnected pin 3 of the regulator and it then measures 9v/5v fine, so it's something after that.
measuring .65 with all the trannies and chips removed, so must be a dodgy component somewhere. i've been over and over the tracks and can't find any short. bummer.
may just rebuild it slower and more carefully.
aha. after much examination i found i'd missed the trace cut next to R26. Idiot. now i just need to find out why i'm getting a distorted mush. maybe i've fried the chips with my slap-dashery. have to wait for new ones arriving to test.
Does anyone have the diagram schematic version of the FETs of DimebaG?
Besides not using the 4066, the board is smaller.
Thanks and sorry my english!
The correct name of the member who made the PCB is DimebuGG, anyone have the schematic diagram of the PCB it?
The PCB not uses the 4066, but JFETs.
Follow the link to the PCB:
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b38ce0b/n/echobase.PDF
This link is on page 45, posted by DimebuGG.
Thank you and sorry for my english.
My successful cram-creation. Used Anonymousfacelesscoward's ultra-dense PCB to stuff this thing into a 1590B-equivalent box. Great pedal, thanks for the work Slacker.
Anyone find theirs oscillates like crazy when the repeat knob is past about 25%? I don't mind, it doesn't occur below that and it sounds pretty cool sometimes, before it gets mega-distorted.
Hope you guys like.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/mattthegamer463/Guitar%20Pedals/DSC05131Large.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/mattthegamer463/Guitar%20Pedals/th_DSC05139Large.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v321/mattthegamer463/Guitar%20Pedals/?action=view¤t=DSC05139Large.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v321/mattthegamer463/Guitar%20Pedals/th_DSC05136Large.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v321/mattthegamer463/Guitar%20Pedals/?action=view¤t=DSC05136Large.jpg)
Wow, i like this, it looks great!
Perfect!
What was the PCB that you used?
Thanks.
Quote from: rmachado on February 08, 2011, 09:09:03 PM
Wow, i like this, it looks great!
Perfect!
What was the PCB that you used?
Thanks.
Anonymousfacelesscoward made a tiny layout in DIYLC, about as dense as possible. Its in here somewhere.
I looked over the 49 pages and not found ...
Maybe my eyes tired ...
If you think the diagram schematic and PCB layout, post here.
Thanks!
Quote from: rmachado on February 08, 2011, 10:01:57 PM
I looked over the 49 pages and not found ...
Maybe my eyes tired ...
If you think the diagram schematic and PCB layout, post here.
Thanks!
This is gunna annoy you after 49 pages of searching but... First search result for Echo Base PCB
http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf
;)
Ok "Scruffie", but do not think this layout has been used in ecobase by "mattthegamer" ...
I searching for the schematic diagram of the board "DimebuGG".
Thanks and sorry my english.
Quote from: rmachado on February 09, 2011, 12:40:51 AM
Ok "Scruffie", but do not think this layout has been used in ecobase by "mattthegamer" ...
I searching for the schematic diagram of the board "DimebuGG".
Thanks and sorry my english.
He said he used
QuoteAnonymousfacelesscoward's
layout, which is what that is, DumbuGGs layout is a couple of pages back though if you want it.
Ok Scruffie, I saw the PCB DimebuGG two pages, I want the "schematic diagram" or "eletrical diagram", How do you prefer.
Thanks.
Quote from: rmachado on February 09, 2011, 11:58:24 AM
Ok Scruffie, I saw the PCB DimebuGG two pages, I want the "schematic diagram" or "eletrical diagram", How do you prefer.
Thanks.
http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/echobase.png (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/echobase.png)
hey guys...this is of topic but i need some help...has anyone built rebote 2.5 from tonepad?
Someone already made a two delay with PT2399 to increase the length of delay time? (no moduçaões only delay).
There is a PCB??
thanks.
Hello all,
I've been meaning to dive into another pedal build for a while now and the Echo Base is calling my name. Since I'd be getting mad custom anyway, I was wondering if it's possible to mod the thing to play back the repeats at twice the speed at the flick of a toggle. Some pedals have this feature and the resulting cascading octaves are ultra psychedelic. If it can't be done, i'll probably just add an effects loop and stick a pitch shifter in, but it would be kind of nice to have it all self contained.
No I'm afraid you can't make it do that. You can switch between two different delay setting using 2 delay time pots or preset resistors, but that won't do the cascading octaves thing, it will just change the pitch once when you switch and will probably sound pretty messy.
An effects loop with a pitch shifter would be the only way to do what you want.
Welcome to the forum :)
Quote from: slacker on February 14, 2011, 12:55:46 PM
No I'm afraid you can't make it do that. You can switch between two different delay setting using 2 delay time pots or preset resistors, but that won't do the cascading octaves thing, it will just change the pitch once when you switch and will probably sound pretty messy.
An effects loop with a pitch shifter would be the only way to do what you want.
Welcome to the forum :)
Alas, you can't always get what you want! Oh well, the effects loop will probably be more versatile. I'm excited nonetheless.
Thanks for the warm welcome!
Hello everyone.
I made a delay with 2 - PT2399 utilizing information here forum, it worked very well.
In the link below, put the schematic and board design, done in a primitive program ...
If someone is able to improve it, I will be grateful.
http://s1116.photobucket.com/albums/k567/lzeppelin/
is that 2 pt2399 based on the add on.?
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg560977#msg560977
will the tap tempo work with these?
i would like a series echo
delay w modulation into delay with tap tempo.
i have the echobase pcb from Taylor. and the taptation from here. still pondering implementation.
Dunno about the new stuff but just finished this guy and it sounds awesome! The modulation sounds to me like an army of drunk pacman ghosts...
First off, this is an amazing thread about and amazing circuit. Thanks so much to the creator and everyone else who added their great ideas. I've built a Clari(not) (with a fuzz lift switch and LFO added) a little bit ago. THANKS DOUG! A wonderful circuit, which kind of reminds me of this one, but it can only do one repeat.
Anyway, I'm about to place an order for parts to build the Echo Base. I'm going to use the anonymousfacelesscoward PCB thats been posted here. Pretty excited to slap it all together.
I've read all 50 pages of this thread (!!!), but I'm still unsure about a few mods I'd like to do! If ya'll can deal with me here...I have a few questions...
1. What exactly do I need to do to make this pedal true-bypass? I don't really need the tails after I turn the unit off.
2. How do I add the effects loop that will effect only the delays. I'd like to have it effect the very first delay.
3. LFO WAVE FORM MOD: Is it best to use a 25k or 50k pot?
Thanks for your help! Its much appreciated!
Actually, I think I'll use DimebuGG's PCB:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XBLxtjUxez0/TJmTVVgjW2I/AAAAAAAAAEw/ENMIxy_oWQA/s1600/echo+base.PNG
Any help with the questions above?
Quote from: kinski on February 24, 2011, 12:32:05 AM
1. What exactly do I need to do to make this pedal true-bypass? I don't really need the tails after I turn the unit off.
On any of the Echo Base layouts all you need to do to make it true bypass is leave out the bypass and tails switches and the LED, just don't connect them at all, this turns the effect permanently on. Then just use whatever true bypass wiring method you like.
I don't know if this works on DimebuGG's PCB because he's made quite a few changes to the circuit and I've never seen the schematic.
Quote
2. How do I add the effects loop that will effect only the delays. I'd like to have it effect the very first delay.
For effects loop info have a look at my post here http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39579&postorder=asc&start=375 (http://www.electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39579&postorder=asc&start=375) you probably want option A.
Quote
3. LFO WAVE FORM MOD: Is it best to use a 25k or 50k pot?
Makes no difference.
Hey, thanks for the response! I just saw you posted. For some reason, I did not get a notice that there was a response.
Very cool. So, which layout is best to use then? There are so many on here and so many slight variations. Do you recommend one to etch?
Oh, okay, also, the only info i can find is a schematic. I'll show my complete lack of skills here....I'm awful at reading schematics. Loop A is exactly what I'd want. Its there a layout or or a photo or something? Thanks!
Many Thanks for this build Slacker - this is my 8th or 9th build, certainly the most complicated and definitley the most rewarding to date! :icon_biggrin:
However, I do have one issue, it seems that my mod speed is fixed and the pot doesnt do anything - everything else is fine apart from I get white noise showing up in the last two tenths of the level pot (though this is not really a problem for me).
The mod speed pot is wired as shown in the vero layout, and I have tried a new TL072 in U1 to no avail
The U1 voltages are:
1) 4.81
2) 1.87
3) 4.42
4) 0.64
5) 2.28
6) 4.39
7) 1.96
8) 5.35
Any suggestions greatly appreciated
:icon_redface: Ok, ignore last post - I really must start remembering to clear dead batteries off my workbench!
Many Thanks Slacker!
Cuthbert 'Modulating' Griswold
Glad you got it working. Looks like you discovered the low battery indicator feature :)
I've had this thing built for about a week now and I love it! I didn't know analog delays were this different
Thanks, slacker!
Quote from: phector2004 on February 28, 2011, 05:47:45 PM
I've had this thing built for about a week now and I love it! I didn't know analog delays were this different
Thanks, slacker!
???
This is a digital one.
Digital chip, yes, but in an analog circuit... It behaves differently than those DSP "X repeats, Y ms delay time, Z... etc" 100-parameter digital delays I tried out a while back...
Does it count as analog? ???
Hi all,
Not sure whats taken me so long to get on the echo base train, but it's made the A list of next builds.
I may be way out of my depth here, but was thinking how cool it would be to have 2 of these boards, and set up some sort of ping pong effect. Due to the super simple wiring (I assume the bypass is just a open / closed switch for on / off?), i could wire up stereo with this one easily. My question is though, doing this will not give ping pong, it will just be the same signal to both amps. But, would something like the daughter board of the small clone, in tonepads mod section work with this idea? Or am i going up the wrong path with my "out of phase" idea? Any other simple way to do it? Sorry, im definitely no electronics expert :-)
Thanks for any help / ideas!
Paul
Quote from: phector2004 on March 01, 2011, 05:15:03 PM
Digital chip, yes, but in an analog circuit... It behaves differently than those DSP "X repeats, Y ms delay time, Z... etc" 100-parameter digital delays I tried out a while back...
Does it count as analog? ???
I don't think so. Usually when people use digital/analog terminology regarding delay pedals, it's referring to a chip. Something that uses a BBD would be analog.
This does sound very analog, though. :)
I actually think it's pretty murky when it comes to delay, because BBDs are not even really analog. They are digital in that they are sampled in discrete time, but analog in that the samples are continuous analog voltages. And the PT2399 is generally described as digital, but the sampling technique seems to me to be quite different than a general-purpose DSP chip. So maybe rather than 2 bins, analog and digital, we have a continuum.
tape - BBD - PT2399 - general-purpose DSP
Fair enough. I was speaking more about how guitarists perceive it, and use the terms, though, ya know? :D
Oh for sure. I mean, by conventional and proper terminology, PT2399 is digital, no doubt about it. So I'm not disagreeing at all, I was just proposing a bit of a new way of thinking about it.
But as far as how guitarists think about it, many guitarists think having any IC in a circuit means it's digital, so I don't think we should worry too much about their perspective... ;)
Hey can anyone tell me what lifting the 1N914 diodes will sound like? My board is face down and it be a hassle to try it out and put in another switch not knowing if id wanna keep it.
The diodes are mostly to limit the volume when the repeats pot is cranked right up, they don't do much if anything at lower settings of the repeats pot. If you hit the pedal with a hot enough signal they may add some slight distortion at lower repeat settings.
Quote from: Taylor on March 01, 2011, 08:41:20 PM
So maybe rather than 2 bins, analog and digital, we have a continuum.
tape - BBD - PT2399 - general-purpose DSP
The basically how I look at it, there's 2 types of digital delay. The first is where you have an analogue signal path and the only digital bit is what ever is producing the delay. This includes PT2339 based pedals and things like Boss DD3s, and a whole bunch of other older digital delays.
Then you have DSP based delays where the whole signal path is digital, like you get in multiFX pedals or newer EHX stuff. I don't really like these, not for the sound, some of them sound great, but because they don't have analogue controls, so you often can't mess with delay time in real time or they won't go into feedback for example. That's the main reason I stopped using a multifx board and went back to pedals and got into this whole business.
When people say they don't like digital delays I'm never really sure which sort they're talking about.
EDIT: Doh, just noticed that's basically what Phil said :)
Quote from: chromesphere on March 01, 2011, 05:42:14 PM
Due to the super simple wiring (I assume the bypass is just a open / closed switch for on / off?),
Yeah that's right one switch can control more than one board.
To do ping pong you would put 2 delays in series with both set to the same time, you could do this by using a dual pot for the time control or just set them both the same. Then you take feedback from the output of the second one back to the first. The output of one goes to the left and the output of the other goes to the right.
There's a ping pong delay at Build Your Own Clone, you could look at that for ideas.
Hey Slacker, thanks for the response, i think i'll look into doing this, doesnt sound to complicated.
Thanks for your help!!!
Paul.
hey...i found a lot of pdf's for this pedal...which one is the latest please? ;D
If you mean layouts then I think this is the one most people use http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/23693577.html (http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/23693577.html) this is based on the version 1 schematic on the first page of this thread.
As far as I know the only layout for the latest version is the one Taylor sells.
Quote from: slacker on March 06, 2011, 10:17:24 AM
If you mean layouts then I think this is the one most people use http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/18854450.html (http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/18854450.html) this is based on the version 1 schematic on the first page of this thread.
As far as I know the only layout for the latest version is the one Taylor sells.
ok thanks!pdf was not clear enough sorry! ;D i mean layout-schematic-wiring and so...!thanks again...
I want to know how wiring of the footswitch? I believe we have to connect +9v on it?
hi all.
anyone help with an echo base build that isn't going into bypass mode? i assume it'll be something to do with the 2N5809, though only as that seems the logical place. i won't pretend to know much about what i'm doing
i've measured the voltages on Q1:
On:
E 0, B 0.57, C 4.7
Off:
E 0, B 0, C 7.6
if that gives any clues i'd greatly appreciate any help, as this thing sounds pretty good, but isn't much use right now!
cheers
Looks like that's where the problem is, the collector voltage when On is too high, it should be about 1 volt or less. With 4.7 volts on the collector the switching will be on all the time.
Double check the connections and value of all the components around the 2N5089 and make sure the transistor is the correct way round.
If you want to check that everything else is working then touch the middle pin of the tails switch to ground and that should bypass the effect.
Ian
I am debugging an Echo Base that was built on one of Taylors boards by someone else. He has managed to install 1.5R instead of 1M5 resistors. I dont have any 1M5 on hand, only 1M. I am pretty sure the differences in the switching circuit are negligible, but what effect will putting a 1M in the feedback of U1B have verses a 1M5?
BTW, Taylor, you have the wrong pin numbers on your schematic vs the pcb. U1A 1, 2, 3 should be 7, 6, 5 and U1B 7, 6, 5 should be 1, 2, 3. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks,
Law
Quote from: Groovenut on March 31, 2011, 01:26:44 AMwhat effect will putting a 1M in the feedback of U1B have verses a 1M5?
It will slow down and increase the amplitude of the LFO.
QuoteBTW, Taylor, you have the wrong pin numbers on your schematic vs the pcb. U1A 1, 2, 3 should be 7, 6, 5 and U1B 7, 6, 5 should be 1, 2, 3. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
You might be right that they don't match, because the schematic was drawn by Slacker, independently, after the PCB was already designed. I'll check it out, thanks.
Thanks Taylor! I appreciate the input :)
Yeah Lawrence you're correct using 1M instead of 1M5 in the audio sections won't make any difference. There was no particular reason I used 1M5 other than I wanted a high value and I had a load of them to hand.
I just recently ordered the kit for a Thingamagoop 2. Me and a friend of mine who have an interest in electronics recently put it together. The only experience I have in electronics myself is I just recently finished a course on electrical automation. I enjoyed assembling the Thingamagoop 2 so much that I instantly went looking for another electronics project so I could further educate myself. I decided on building this delay pedal and have being trying to compile the parts for this pedal from the schematics. I've got most of them but am having a hard time finding the non polarized capacitors and when I go to order them online I'm finding the variety of capacitors a little overwhelming. I was hoping someone might be able to give me some guidance on how to properly order these following components. 100n, 1n, 470p, 15n, 47n, 4n7, 220n, 1u, 1n. I hope this question isn't too rudimentary for this forum but this is the only way so far that I know how to learn this stuff. So far it feels like I might have bitten off more than I can chew but I'd really like to see this thing come to fruition. It seems like this is a really great pedal and would be lots of fun to build.
Thanks.
smallbearelec.com carries the caps you need, and they have a small and focused enough selection that it won't be maddening to search through it all. :) When I buy caps from there, I get the Topmay TCM07 series.
Http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=892
Http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=894
Http://www.smallbearelec.com/Detail.bok?no=896
Now, for values below .001uf, which is also called 1n (http://www.justradios.com/uFnFpF.html), my suggestion would be to go with ceramic caps. There are film caps in those smaller values, but Small Bear doesn't carry them anymore. People argue sometimes over whether ceramic caps sound different from film - without getting into it, my personal belief is that, at least for a first pedal, I really don't think it matters.
Quote from: BitBum on April 08, 2011, 07:56:24 PM
I just recently ordered the kit for a Thingamagoop 2. Me and a friend of mine who have an interest in electronics recently put it together. The only experience I have in electronics myself is I just recently finished a course on electrical automation. I enjoyed assembling the Thingamagoop 2 so much that I instantly went looking for another electronics project so I could further educate myself. I decided on building this delay pedal and have being trying to compile the parts for this pedal from the schematics. I've got most of them but am having a hard time finding the non polarized capacitors and when I go to order them online I'm finding the variety of capacitors a little overwhelming. I was hoping someone might be able to give me some guidance on how to properly order these following components. 100n, 1n, 470p, 15n, 47n, 4n7, 220n, 1u, 1n. I hope this question isn't too rudimentary for this forum but this is the only way so far that I know how to learn this stuff. So far it feels like I might have bitten off more than I can chew but I'd really like to see this thing come to fruition. It seems like this is a really great pedal and would be lots of fun to build.
Thanks.
For the "non-polarized" capacitors, just get Film (polyester film) capacitors. They're always non-polarized. You may be trying to get non-polarized electrolytics, which are harder to find and also unnecessary for this project.
Note also that smallbear uses "mf" in his product listings where projects will typically say "uF". In this case, they're the same (but don't presume they're the same anywhere else).
Capacitor markings and types are always needlessly complicated... unfortunately.
Thanks so much guys! that's a big help. :icon_biggrin:
Hi Guys,
Just been reading through the thread in preparation for taking on this project. Looks like this one's really caught peoples imagination - thanks for sharing, Slacker!
I'm planning to keep things pretty standard, but one possible mod that really grabbed me was the idea of having a second switchable "Time" pot to give two presets - i2k posted about this back on page 5.
Does anyone see a problem with this? My limited knowledge and the other posts on this thread suggest that the process of switching between the two pots could result in momentary infinite resistance on pin 6 of the PT2399, leading to a signal spike.
Any alternative ideas about how this could be avoided?
Cheers,
Pete
you could try diodes...! ::)
Quote from: kipper_71 on April 13, 2011, 09:00:49 AM
My limited knowledge and the other posts on this thread suggest that the process of switching between the two pots could result in momentary infinite resistance on pin 6 of the PT2399,
Any alternative ideas about how this could be avoided?
Here's one possibility:
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j207/merlinblencowe/EchoBase1.jpg)
hi guys, i built this a long time ago..and f....... love it..best analog/digital delay pedal ever imo...thanks slacker.
ive noticed a few peoples echo bases with other mods though!..
is there an up to date list of possible mods for it now?.....
Quote from: merlinb on April 13, 2011, 09:59:05 AM
Here's one possibility:
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j207/merlinblencowe/EchoBase1.jpg)
That's how I'd do it, I think I suggested that method somewhere in this thread, thanks for posting that, probably much clearer than my explanation was :)
Quote from: deadastronaut on April 13, 2011, 10:07:49 AM
hi guys, i built this a long time ago..and f....... love it..best analog/digital delay pedal ever imo...thanks slacker.
Cheers.
Quote
is there an up to date list of possible mods for it now?.....
Taylor's build document for his PCB contains all the mods that I know of. The instructions only reference his layout but they all work with any version. I'll see if I can knock up a schematic showing them all for people who are building other versions.
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=43077 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=43077)
cheers ian, yeah i built the anonfaceless layout..
Quote from: slacker on April 13, 2011, 01:18:10 PM
Quote from: merlinb on April 13, 2011, 09:59:05 AM
Here's one possibility:
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j207/merlinblencowe/EchoBase1.jpg)
That's how I'd do it, I think I suggested that method somewhere in this thread, thanks for posting that, probably much clearer than my explanation was :)
Cheers guys, I'll give that a go.
Roll on payday ... :)
Quote from: merlinb on April 13, 2011, 09:59:05 AM
Quote from: kipper_71 on April 13, 2011, 09:00:49 AM
My limited knowledge and the other posts on this thread suggest that the process of switching between the two pots could result in momentary infinite resistance on pin 6 of the PT2399,
Any alternative ideas about how this could be avoided?
Here's one possibility:
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j207/merlinblencowe/EchoBase1.jpg)
specifically, what does this do to the effect output?
shouldn't affect the output at all. It's just allowing you to have two different delay time pots so you could switch between two settings instantly.
Is there a way to make one of the delay pots automatically go to 3/4 of the other? Then you could instantly switch from 1/4 to dotted 8th delays!
The only way I know would be to plunk down the measly 20 bucks on a taptation kit from aron's store. Then you get that functionality and tons of other cool options.
Just found details of Taptation - looked at the datasheet and interface app note - do I just replace the time pot with TapTation?
Is it that simple or are there better ways to do it?
Thanks
Bill
Quote from: bandmbill on April 18, 2011, 11:28:08 AM
Just found details of Taptation - looked at the datasheet and interface app note - do I just replace the time pot with TapTation?
Is it that simple or are there better ways to do it?
Thanks
Bill
It's that simple. Instead of wiring the time pot to the echo base board, you wire it per the schematic to the taptation circuit. Then just wire +5v, ground, and pin 6 of the PT2399 to the taptation circuit as indicated in the taptation schematic and you are in business.
That makes a wonderful pedal just about perfect!!
Thanks
Bill
slacker - it'd be super good if we could have a schematic showing all the mods. i've been trying to spot what should go where on dimebug's PCB but can't figure a few of them out (like the clean signal kill switch). there seem to be a few different component values on his compared to taylor's. cheers.
Quote from: slacker on March 14, 2011, 12:42:16 PM
Looks like that's where the problem is, the collector voltage when On is too high, it should be about 1 volt or less. With 4.7 volts on the collector the switching will be on all the time.
Double check the connections and value of all the components around the 2N5089 and make sure the transistor is the correct way round.
If you want to check that everything else is working then touch the middle pin of the tails switch to ground and that should bypass the effect.
just revisited this as it's been sitting in the 'to do' pile for a long time. i did have the 5089 the wrong way round :-\. thanks for the advice. i've just made dimebug's pcb, so want to build another with all the groovy mods once i can discern how they translate from taylor's board to DBs.
I want to add an effect loop to my Echo Base, but I don't know how to do it. According to Slacker there is 3 possible places to put an effect loop: "A", "B" and "C".
Here is the schematic: http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/echobasenotes.png (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/echobasenotes.png)
What I don't understand is if I break the circuit at one of those points to put a send and a return jack, the circuit will always be open if I don't put something in the effect loop. What can I do if I want the circuit to remain "close" when there is nothing in the loop?
Thanks to anyone who can help me with this.
^ [img=http://www.bakersfieldads.net/Oildate-/Manufacturing-/New-5-x-switched-mono-jack-socket-for-6-3MM-jacks.jpg]http://Jacks with normally-closed switches[/img].
Thanks egasimus, it should do the trick. The funny thing is that I already have a couple of jacks like that but I never knew what they were for.
So where can I find the latest layout.
Preferably with the latest mods. Or not. I can figure those out.
I have found myself with some "free time" over the next few weeks and would like to build another Echobase.
Built one a few years ago. Really liked it. Gave it to one of my students so I no longer have it.
Thanks
And great job slacker!
ahahah, you lazy old bum. :p:
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/18854450.html
check musicpcb.com for Taylor's build documentation to see some mods. :D
Managed to run across that after posting. Thanks though.
I'll check that site for the mods.
MC
Just wanted to say THANKS SLACKER!
Built a 'stock' Echo Base on vero - my 2nd build, and no 'debugging' required! (apart from a beginners mistake of using a metal DC socket - "it worked out of the enclosure!?!") I've also ended up putting the toggle switch in a silly place: too close to the footswitch really; no biggie though - just be careful not to STOMP!
Will now look into some of the mods - think the only one for me is the feedback time; adjusting the resistor for that pot, but I need to play with the pedal a bit more yet...
One issue perhaps: when the effect is 'bypassed', if i turn the feedback pot fully up I get noise as if the pedal was switched on (if the level is not on zero)...I assumed this was normal because of the type of switch bypassing?
Thanks again!
Thanks for the thanks :)
If the bypass is set to tails, then in bypass the output of the delay is still connected, this is how you hear the tails. Therefore if you turn the feedback all the way up so the pedal is self oscillating then you will still hear it in bypass.
If the bypass is not set to tails then you might still faintly hear the delay if it's self oscillating, I think this is just because the signal is so loud it bleeds though the CD4066, but it could be getting into the output by some other way.
It should be a pretty simple mod to fix this if it's a problem, I'll have a think.
Great!
I'm going to have a proper play with it tonight so will find out if I've soldered any problems into the circuit! :)
This may have already been covered (I don't have gumption to tackle the whole thread) but how essential is it to use the 20k resistors or can I just use 18k or 22k. If I have to parrellel or series it can you please give me explicit directions. I really appreciate any help.
Thanks
Jeff
You should be fine with 22k.
One 20k is part of a lowpass filter going into the delay chip. 22k will shift the cutoff slightly lower (1.5k vs. 1.7k) but I doubt the difference is noticeable. The other 20k limits the max feedback. Again the difference will be negligible, especially since you have the feedback knob.
Hello friends, sorry if I posted in the wrong place, but here it goes:
I recently bought a Boss PH-1r, and it not looks a lot like another PH-1r I had a few years ago.
What does the bias trimpot?, as shown in the schematic at this link:
http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/Boss%20PH-1r.pdf
Sorry my english.
Thank you all.
hmm, not sure why but my question seems to have disappeared...??? I wonder if anyone has the time or wherewithall to stick taylor's mods onto a schematic rather than his helpful (but hard to follow) document. i'm sure that's fine if you're using his multi-layer PCB, but i'm about to build dimebugg's PCB and i'm a bit stuck with a few of them?
thanks for this schem Slacker - i've already built one on vero and it works a treat, though it took a while to work out i had the 2n5809 reversed so it wouldn't bypass! :icon_redface:
I haven't had time to do the mods schematic yet, I'll see if i can do it over the weekend.
superstar! cheers
Here you go
http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/lfomods.jpg (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/lfomods.jpg) LFO mods
http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/audiomods.jpg audio mods. The schematic shows the input buffer and output mixer from Taylor's PCB not the original version. The mods are the same for either version.
perfect and outstanding. many thanks. :D
After much consideration, i've decided to go with this over the Rebote 2.5. But the modulation doesn't really interest me. Is it possible to just omit the modulation circuit and ground those pins that it was connected to on the PT?
Quote from: Sanguinicus on May 26, 2011, 11:44:00 PM
After much consideration, i've decided to go with this over the Rebote 2.5. But the modulation doesn't really interest me. Is it possible to just omit the modulation circuit and ground those pins that it was connected to on the PT?
If you look in Tyler's build document on his site, you can see how to do the modulation kill mod. Just wire it permanently instead of with a switch, and omit the pots for modulation.
If you don't want it at all then looking at the schematic leave out U1 and everything connected to it up to and including the BC560 and the 39k resistor. Connect the spare end of the time pot to ground same as on the Rebote.
Hi,
I'm new here, but long time reader of this thread. After finally managing to register here, I wanted to contribute some layouts for the Butchered TBP
version from slacker with the latest buffer version and the new buffer on it's own vero. It's not verified yet, but maybe someone might risk an eye...
http://forum.musikding.de/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=6894&d=1300543356 (http://forum.musikding.de/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=6894&d=1300543356)
http://forum.musikding.de/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=6895&d=1300543372 (http://forum.musikding.de/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=6895&d=1300543372)
Quote from: deafbutpicky on June 03, 2011, 07:58:48 AM
Hi,
I'm new here, but long time reader of this thread. After finally managing to register here, I wanted to contribute some layouts for the Butchered TBP
version from slacker with the latest buffer version and the new buffer on it's own vero. It's not verified yet, but maybe someone might risk an eye...
http://forum.musikding.de/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=6894&d=1300543356 (http://forum.musikding.de/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=6894&d=1300543356)
http://forum.musikding.de/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=6895&d=1300543372 (http://forum.musikding.de/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=6895&d=1300543372)
We can't see those attachments. Can you post them somewhere else?
Don't know if this has come up yet, but I'd just like to contribute something I discovered:
After building the echo base, I was thrilled, but over time it started acting funny. I'd get self-oscillation when playing with the Depth and Delay knobs with Feedback turned way down, and there was this horrible ticking coming from the LFO whenever I switched modulation on. Not too noticeable until you use a booster or something after the EB.
Well my brother's puppy decided to pee on my Uglyface and V847 last week, so I took my whole chain apart to clean up, unplugging my Echo Base for the first time since I built it (yes, it's that good, thank you ;))
All noise issues gone! I'm guessing sending it into oscillation over and over and over without powering off was the cause of this... Resetting was a quick fix for me. Could anybody else with ticking issues confirm?
Yep!pee works great!
Sorry for the link issues, somehow I can't edit my post so I'll try with this to fix the problem...
http://forum.musikding.de/cpg/displayimage.php?album=535&pos=0 (http://forum.musikding.de/cpg/displayimage.php?album=535&pos=0)
http://forum.musikding.de/cpg/displayimage.php?album=535&pos=1 (http://forum.musikding.de/cpg/displayimage.php?album=535&pos=1)
The buffer looks fine.
The butchered version looks good, except that shape cw should be connected to pin 7 of U1. I don't think it will work connected after R28.
As I took your vero for my own build and added the mods on this before I made my update vero, I tryied to stay as close to yours
as possible. This one slipped through. Actually the shape really acts a bit subtle, but I've got no comparison. Just in case,
here's another one. Had to add another line... darn :icon_wink:
http://forum.musikding.de/cpg/displayimage.php?album=535&pos=2 (http://forum.musikding.de/cpg/displayimage.php?album=535&pos=2)
During coffe break I took another look at my vero and guess what... found a mistake under U1.
corrected version here:
http://forum.musikding.de/cpg/displayimage.php?album=535&pos=1 (http://forum.musikding.de/cpg/displayimage.php?album=535&pos=1)
done.
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/446/1206111126.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/1206111126.jpg/)
@mr deadmaxxxx...
is that a 1590b?....if so which layout did you use?...i'd love to have a smaller echobase.....board space etc... ;)
layout from anonymousfacelesscoward.
dimebugg pcb should slot in there easy too
Taylor's PCB will fit fine as well.
Quote from: slacker on June 18, 2011, 06:54:38 AM
Taylor's PCB will fit fine as well.
I think he said it'd only fit a 125B actually, which is a tiny bit bigger.
Quote from: Scruffie on June 18, 2011, 12:07:08 PM
Quote from: slacker on June 18, 2011, 06:54:38 AM
Taylor's PCB will fit fine as well.
I think he said it'd only fit a 125B actually, which is a tiny bit bigger.
yeah i thought that box looked a bit bigger than a 1590b!...hmmm...
I made a new layout for the Little Angel, incl. the dry/wet mod and the pin 6 potentiometer mod. Should theoretically fit into a 1590a, too. Will post it when I have time.
Quote from: egasimus on June 22, 2011, 08:15:33 AM
I made a new layout for the Little Angel, incl. the dry/wet mod and the pin 6 potentiometer mod. Should theoretically fit into a 1590a, too. Will post it when I have time.
cool... :icon_cool:
Damn, wrong topic :-[ :-X
Would have been cool tho, an echo base in a 1590a 8)
^now that i'd like to see... :icon_eek:
Well, finally finished my build of this - certainly the most complex build I've ever attempted - and I was looking forward to a few evenings worth of debugging.
Plugged it in and ... it just works! ;D
I've since spent the last hour with a fat ass grin on my face playing and playing. This pedal is simply awesome.
Slacker - thanks, you are a true gent for sharing this. The switchable delay time pots work a treat too - you do sometimes get a bit of strangeness for a second right after switching, but that just adds to the fun!
Hi, I am finally building one of these... but as I am not familiar at all with cmos switching I decided to go the hard-way....
and it seems all features of the original echo base are still unchanged, as the tails-option. and more, as in the configuration I am presenting, also a third mode is present, this is how I would describe them:
tails: no need to explain
direct: both "delay out" and "feed" are switched on at the same time. this way the delayed signal starts to generate when you switch the effect on
flashback mode: the feed of the delay is always on, so as you engage the pedal there is already something being delayed. and this is probably the same as in the original echo base.
so the 2nd mode is the new feature, no big deal. the great thing for me is no need for cmos switching!
* i didn't read the whole post, so all of this might already be known...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5038/5893528138_ee7abc3672_b.jpg)
Nice idea, you might need to add caps between the opamps and switch 1 though otherwise it might pop.
You could add the direct mode to the original design if you wanted to using a rotary switch for the tails switch and wiring it so one setting connected to both points A and B on the original schematic.
Here's my stab at this ... not exactly minimalist! :D
(http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g402/kipper_71/IMG_0003.jpg)
Right hand footswitch is a momentary, left hand toggles between the two delay time pots.
Quote from: MarcoMike on July 02, 2011, 04:54:03 AM
Hi, I am finally building one of these... but as I am not familiar at all with cmos switching I decided to go the hard-way....
and it seems all features of the original echo base are still unchanged, as the tails-option. and more, as in the configuration I am presenting, also a third mode is present, this is how I would describe them:
tails: no need to explain
direct: both "delay out" and "feed" are switched on at the same time. this way the delayed signal starts to generate when you switch the effect on
flashback mode: the feed of the delay is always on, so as you engage the pedal there is already something being delayed. and this is probably the same as in the original echo base.
so the 2nd mode is the new feature, no big deal. the great thing for me is no need for cmos switching!
* i didn't read the whole post, so all of this might already be known...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5038/5893528138_ee7abc3672_b.jpg)
Juuuuust to make sure we're on the same page here, It seems that the way the switch is setup right now, it's in Flashback mode, correct? Because the input is feeding into the delay, but the output of the delay is disconnected (if we were to be in bypass). Am I correct?
That's what it looks like to me. The middle position of S1 is direct and the bottom position is tails.
So I just finished my first echo base, which was also my first ever build, and I must say that it is one sweet sounding delay!
I initially had some problems with the feedback pot, it didn't really do anything, and if it was turned all the way down, something would short in the potmeter.
I traced the fault back to a missing cut on the strip board, which meant that the feedback CCW was connected directly to +9V.
Other than that, the build actually worked pretty well, I had to change the feedback resistor value to 100K, at 20K and 37K it was either no feedback or selfoscillation madness, no middle ground.
Now I just need to cram it into a enclosure, unfortunately, the pots I ordered are waaay to big for the enclosure, so that will be a project for next week.
Thanks for a great design slacker!
Hi there,
I was getting ready to put one of these together, but I noticed the file I used to etch my board is different than the link on here.
This is the one I used:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn191/squigglefunk/echobase22-1.jpg)
so is this layout still useable or are the errors on it?
here's the one I saw on the link
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn191/squigglefunk/echobase22-2.jpg)
another question:
any reason the 7805 voltage regulator isn't listed on parts list? I ordered the parts and missed it on the layout. Oooops!
just built one on dimebugg's pcb and got nada. ???
1.06 v measured from +9v to GND. something's eating that there V up! etch another, start again....
Quote from: squigglefunk on August 05, 2011, 09:58:37 AM
I was getting ready to put one of these together, but I noticed the file I used to etch my board is different than the link on here.
As far as I know that layout is fine, the other one by the same guy is just a bit smaller.
Quote
any reason the 7805 voltage regulator isn't listed on parts list? I ordered the parts and missed it on the layout. Oooops!
Just a mistake I guess, it ain't going to work without it :)
thanks slacker, I appreciate your feedback, I can snag a 7805 at the local rat shack prob.
thanks, I'll let you know how I make out :)
@sqigglefunk: i built the top layout, it worked fine.... :icon_cool:
Hi everyone! I am building my second echobase and this time I want to leave out the tails switch. I never use it on my first build.
Can anybody tell me how to jumper the 'tails' section of the pcb, so I have tails always on. Thank you.
middle pad and left pad jumpered i would think....... :)
Sounds right to me, you want the jumper connecting the centre pad to the trace going to pin 13 of CD4066.
Thank you!!
Here's another question about tail switch.. i tried using the tails then turn the effect off.. my question is if the tail is on and the pedal is bypass/off is there delay even its bypassed/off?
thats what im getting ???
Yes, that is the function of tails. In tails mode, the delays fade out naturally and no new delays are created. In boss mode the delays stop immediately when switched off.
That is the only thinkg the tails/boss switch is for: delays or no delays after switching off. (therefore the echo base is not true bypass either)
Quote from: ~arph on August 25, 2011, 01:37:59 AM
Yes, that is the function of tails. In tails mode, the delays fade out naturally and no new delays are created. In boss mode the delays stop immediately when switched off.
That is the only thinkg the tails/boss switch is for: delays or no delays after switching off. (therefore the echo base is not true bypass either)
I'm not sure if he means he's getting bleed through though... in which case that isn't right.
Quote from: ~arph on August 25, 2011, 01:37:59 AM
Yes, that is the function of tails. In tails mode, the delays fade out naturally and no new delays are created. In boss mode the delays stop immediately when switched off.
That is the only thinkg the tails/boss switch is for: delays or no delays after switching off. (therefore the echo base is not true bypass either)
O my gosh.. mine is something wrong on it.. thanks for the reply mate really help :D gona check my tails/boss maybe there is bad happening there..
Quote from: Scruffie on August 25, 2011, 12:29:18 PM
Quote from: ~arph on August 25, 2011, 01:37:59 AM
Yes, that is the function of tails. In tails mode, the delays fade out naturally and no new delays are created. In boss mode the delays stop immediately when switched off.
That is the only thinkg the tails/boss switch is for: delays or no delays after switching off. (therefore the echo base is not true bypass either)
I'm not sure if he means he's getting bleed through though... in which case that isn't right.
yes scruff my tails is acting as bypass lol! im not sure why? maybe i was using on/off/on dpdt.. that's all i have in hand ... but it doesnt matter about the switch i think?
If you use an on-off-on switch the off position will disable the bypass and you will get delays all the time. The on positions should work fine. If you are getting delay all the time it sounds like a problem with the switch or the wiring to it.
Ohh gonna check it now thanks A lot! :icon_razz:
Hi guys, thank you for this awesome forum...I made the echo base true bypass following this layout ( http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasebutchered.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobasebutchered.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1) ) and I have a problem : the sound coming out is too low and the level pot at maximum let the pedal self-oscillate . ???
I am wondering if the layout is correct ... anyone can help me?
Sorry for my english...
Thank you again
P.s. with line signal the effect is working....
The layout is correct. I would check all the connections and the wiring of the level pot, the level pot at maximum should not make the pedal self oscillate.
Your English is fine :)
I double-checked everything... I try to substitute all the ics and the transistors ... I checked also the wiring of the pots and off-board one..
I can't understand why is so low volume with guitar signal...seems too be a simple thing to fix but can't find it out...
Thank you
Check the values of R1, R2, R3, R4, R5 and R6, if one of those was wrong it could make the volume lower.
I have just checked and it's all ok ... the values and the positions... c2, c3 , c5 , c21,c8 and c9 are ceramic caps... Can be a problem?
Ceramic caps are fine. Is it just the level of the delays that is too low or the level of the whole pedal?
The level of the pedal...if, with my finger, I touch r3 for example, I can hear clearly the dry and the wet signal ...and all the pots work correctly
Have you got the grounds connected correctly? A wire should go from where it says ground on the layout to the DC jack or black battery wire. The sleeve connections of the input and output jacks should also be connected to ground.
It's the thread's fourth birthday, help yourselves to cake :)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/-UXsRFZpXVPg/S1zqRihgqlI/AAAAAAAALIo/7iLKJ7LruCw/s576/DSCF0518.JPG)
Happy birthday thread!
The ground connections are correctly wired.... today I found that if I connect the right part of c1 to the upper part of r4 the volume of the effect goes up..the problem is that the repeats are higher than the dry signal. The level pot , as I turn it left, still works as the feedback one...
I can't understand...
Thank you very much..
Quote from: slacker on August 27, 2011, 07:56:03 AM
It's the thread's fourth birthday, help yourselves to cake :)
Congrats slacker! There are more Echo Bases out there on people's pedal boards than many famous boutique pedals. I've brought my own vegan brownies to celebrate. :P ;D
Wow! nice :D For the best Delay with the best designer :D
What enclosure is this one? I'd love to do something similar!
Quote from: kipper_71 on July 10, 2011, 03:26:52 PM
Here's my stab at this ... not exactly minimalist! :D
(http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g402/kipper_71/IMG_0003.jpg)
Right hand footswitch is a momentary, left hand toggles between the two delay time pots.
Quote from: forsakenrider on August 28, 2011, 11:15:25 AM
What enclosure is this one? I'd love to do something similar!
It looks like a 1590DD.
belated birthday wishes....this truly is a brilliant delay.....i love mine...thanks ian. :icon_cool: :icon_cool: :icon_cool: :icon_cool: :icon_cool: :icon_cool:
http://www.mojotone.com/amp-parts/Pedal-Parts/1590-DD-Clone-Pedal-Drilled-Powder-Coated-4-562-x-7-5-x-1-4 (http://www.mojotone.com/amp-parts/Pedal-Parts/1590-DD-Clone-Pedal-Drilled-Powder-Coated-4-562-x-7-5-x-1-4) try this enclosure
Happy Birthday! ;D
Here's mine, a Colorsound supa-sustainer, into a para-mix loop blender followed by the Echo Base, (though it's controls are layed out with the EB center).
I call it the' Rosenwinkel' as, with my D'Aquisto archtop and a (homebrew) Rat in the loop, I can aproximate those glorious Kurt Rosenwinkel type tones.
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z30/codtone/IMG_6630-1.jpg)
Echo Base board is at the bottom, not really visable. :icon_redface:
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z30/codtone/guts-1.jpg)
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z30/codtone/IMG_6640B-1.jpg)
I'm confuse because on the schematic R28 (27k) is between W+CCW 1M speed pot and pin 2 of IC1 while on the stripboard layout R28 is between CW speed pot and pin 7 of IC1. Are this 2 different connection are ok for the LFO speed?
Yes the two different connections are fine. They are electronically the same, you get a maximum resistance of 1,027k and a minimum resistance of 27k either way, the electrons don't care which order the components are in.
I probably drew the schematic first and then found it was easier to put them the other way round on the layout, I never noticed they didn't match, good spot :)
Thank for your answer. I built 2 echobase delay and the tails mode don't work on my 2 stompbox : I used some CD4066BE for IC4, does the problem could be this one?
I read another time explanation of the stompbox on the beguining of this thread?. I believe that my tails problem is due to the truebypass I did : I connected together bypass point 1 and 2 and make the truebypass with a 3DPT footswitch, that it?
Yes if you make it true bypass then tails won't work.
I've just managed to package my echo base and I must say it sounds terrific, many thanks Slacker.
I was dreading debugging given the size of the build but surprisingly it worked first time. I integrated on the strip board most of the mods in version 2.
In hindsight, the only mod I won't use is the LED flashing at modulation rate. It's not "dramatic" enough for my taste but unfortunately I drilled an
extra hole for this prior testing.
Anyway, may thanks again for this wonderful circuit.
Why not contented with the Mechanical bypass anyway? its way MUCH better than true bypass in fact Echobase bypass makes the signal clear and boost its clean... the true bypass sucks tone in long cable 20 meters rather than buffered bypass
i just stuck a true-bypass dpdt toggle switch for when it isn't being used on my pedalboard. no worries. simples. :)
Quote from: egasimus on June 22, 2011, 08:15:33 AM
I made a new layout for the Little Angel, incl. the dry/wet mod and the pin 6 potentiometer mod. Should theoretically fit into a 1590a, too. Will post it when I have time.
Were you put that? ??? layout PCB and all? ??? please man where? ???
has anyone built a working one with this AFC layout? i'm just getting clean signal :icon_cry:
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/23693577.html
@poodle : yep ive built that one..worked fine, first go...
i noticed you stuck a toggle for bypass on there,( from comment above)...could that have something to do with your problem?.or was it working ok then.....just a guess.. :)
edit whoops, i built this one! ::) the version you built has more jumpers (up the sides) so no sorry...
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg798276#msg798276
yeah, it's the super micro mini version that'll fit in an mxr-size box. i dpdt bypassed my original vero build. i need two of these on my board :icon_wink:
Quote from: poodlebra on September 09, 2011, 04:26:05 AM
has anyone built a working one with this AFC layout? i'm just getting clean signal :icon_cry:
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/23693577.html
Yes people have used that layout. Did you put the opamps in the right way round, they are upsidedown compared to the PT2399 and the CD4066.
yeah, they're the right way. i guess its a couple of long nights with the MM.
If it passes clean signal then the problem is probably round the right hand side of the PT2399. Audio probe pin 15 to see if the signal is getting to the PT2399 and pin 14 to see if it's getting out of it, that will give you somewhere to start looking.
I Slacker, first of all, thanks for all the work you did here. It's amazing. I ordered pretty much all the parts I need to build a couple of the Echobase pedal for me and a friend and I ordered one pcb from Taylor to add some mods. However, I intended to build the second pedal on a veroboard since I already have a bunch of those. My problem is I'm having trouble implementing the new buffer (as of 30/3/2010 schematic) on the veroboard layout. Is there a revised version of the vero layout? Or if anyone could help me with this since I'm not absolutely sure about what parts to change and how to connect the new buffer.
Thanks for any help,
Marc
Hi Marc
As far as I know there's isn't a vero layout for version 2, I keep meaning to do one but I haven't got round to it yet.
Here's quick snippet of the layout showing the changes for the new buffer, hopefully it makes sense.
(http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/eb2buffer.jpg)
Thanks, that's exactly what I needed. BTW, what king of software are you using for the vero layout? It pretty neat.
Quote from: poodlebra on September 09, 2011, 04:26:05 AM
has anyone built a working one with this AFC layout? i'm just getting clean signal :icon_cry:
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/23693577.html
What's the difference between the 2 layout? why is said updated? oops just saw the 104 cap through depth mod...
Quote from: modallaire on September 11, 2011, 08:30:30 PM
Thanks, that's exactly what I needed. BTW, what king of software are you using for the vero layout? It pretty neat.
Cool hope it works out. I just do my layouts using a graphics program, I use the GIMP but any would do. The components are some templates I found somewhere as is the board background, the components are just copy and pasted on to the board and the text and everything else added on top.
Draft strip board that I used for my build including most mods
(http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww40/cctsim808/echo_base_v2.png)
Vref filtering:
R50 = 47 Ohm
C50 = 47 uF
DC blocking capacitor for LFO output:
C51 = 10 uF
Anti tick capacitor:
C52 = 2.2 uF
New buffers:
R1 = 1 M Ohm
R2 = 1 M ohm
R3 = 3.3 k Ohm
@slacker
what's the usual knob settings so that the echo base will work like a chorus-type pedal?
heres mine if it helps. ^
That's a really nice demo Rob, thanks for doing that.
mr_deadmaxxx to get the chorus sounds delay time should be set very short, level should be turned up near maximum. Feedback and modulation controls set however you like.
do you guys have a PCB for this project? and maybe the parts are also placed? just like at generalguitargadgets?
please reply soon!
thank you!
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/barcode80/echobase.pdf.html (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/barcode80/echobase.pdf.html)
Click on "download document".
Hope this helps.
Thanks for that Jeff, don't think I've seen that pdf before.
If you want to buy a PCB rather than etch your own have a look here http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay/ (http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay/)
No problem, Ian.. I just found it while clicking back through this thread at random . :icon_lol:
Happy belayed 4th bday
Can someone give a definitive way to implement an FX loop on the Taylor Music PCB board please?
Id be ever so grateful. Thanks!
Quote from: LaceSensor on September 27, 2011, 01:00:45 PM
Happy belayed 4th bday
Can someone give a definitive way to implement an FX loop on the Taylor Music PCB board please?
Id be ever so grateful. Thanks!
Where do you want to loop to enter? On the wet signal?
I want it to effect the repeats (I think - building it for a mate, but that makes sense...)
So that if you plugged in a phaser for instance, it would get phased on the repeats..
You can do an effects loop by breaking the connection between the wiper and board of either the level or feedback pots and putting the the loop in there. If you use the level pot then every repeat will go through the loop once. If you use the feedback pot then the first repeat will be clean but every other repeat will go through the loop each time it repeats so every repeat gets more effected.
If you want every repeat to go through the loop and get more effected then you probably need to cut some traces and possibly add a buffer, there's a schematic showing how to do it somewhere in this thread, but I don't know where the relevant points are on Taylor's board.
Like the sound of the level pot actually.
So the send is the board connection for wiper of the level pot to tip of a mono jack, and return would from tip of another jack socket to the lug 2 of the Level pot?
here's an echobase I made with a photoeye mod
so far I'm quite happy with how it turned out. The echo base is a really nice sounding delay!
I added the second footswitch which activates the photoeyes and LED antennae. The eye on the left controls delay time, the one on the right controls delay feedback.
Thanks so much to slacker for the design!!!
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn191/squigglefunk/tapedelay.jpg)
^ nice build squiggle..
i mounted my ldrs in a different way...
i used a 5mm clear led, cut the legs off it, sanded the bottom of the led, then glued the ldr to the bottom of the led, then mounted in a 5mm bezel....works a treat and
looks like a standard led..just my 2p... ;) 8)
Quote from: LaceSensor on September 27, 2011, 05:48:30 PM
So the send is the board connection for wiper of the level pot to tip of a mono jack, and return would from tip of another jack socket to the lug 2 of the Level pot?
Yeah that's right with the connections except they're the other way round, Lug 2 is send and the board connection is return.
Amazing looking pedal squigglefunk.
Quote from: slacker on September 28, 2011, 07:34:42 AM
Quote from: LaceSensor on September 27, 2011, 05:48:30 PM
So the send is the board connection for wiper of the level pot to tip of a mono jack, and return would from tip of another jack socket to the lug 2 of the Level pot?
Yeah that's right with the connections except they're the other way round, Lug 2 is send and the board connection is return.
Amazing looking pedal squigglefunk.
thanks slacker :) , amazing
sounding pedal too, thanks to you! I am gunna have to try the effects loop mod too! :icon_twisted:
When implementing the Dub Madness mod, does the 3rd lug of the feedback knob need to be connected to the board and then you additionally wire the throw of the SPST to it (to connect or disconnect the extra 27 k resistor)
OR simply the dont solder the 3rd pot lug in, and then run the wire to the board?
Also, do you still have to have the 20k resistor on the board for this mod? It isnt mentioned to remove it?
Hope that makes sense.
Thanks
Ian
Here's a pic of my by build made with Taylor's pcb. It sounds great. Thanks Slacker for the great design.[img]http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6132/6205445293_e3a235f7f4_m.jpg/img]
However, I built a second pedal on veroboard with the new buffer as seen on page 57 and I am still in the debugging process. Maybe someone can help me. I first made the mistake of inverting the polarity and also putting the bypass 2 wire on the 9 volts rail (witch at this time was actually ground because of my previous mistake). By then, I had a clean signal when bypassed but only ticking when engaged. After measuring voltages around PT2399 and CD4066, I noticed I had negative voltages. I corrected the wiring and changed both TL072(just in case). Now there is only ticking on both bypass and engaged mode. I measured the voltage again and it shows 0.6 volts across ground and +9 V. (The pedal is powered by via an adapter so that's not the problem).
Does anyone see an obvious component that maybe fried, like D1 or something I should try first.
Thanks everyone,
Marc
Damn, my cover is busted...I don't know how to put a picture in the post... Lets try again.
[img]http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6144/6206057610_22e36118f0_m.jpg/img]
[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/68194440@N03/6206057610/in/photostream/img]
How the H...does it work? I can't preview the pic.
Marc
Here you go - you're missing the "[" right before "/img" at the end.
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6144/6206057610_22e36118f0_m.jpg)
I been through all these posts (seriously!) and whilst I was getting really eager to build one with the momentary footswitch for tap one recent post said it was not possible anymore.
Why? any alternatives?
I think for @deadastronauts despair I'll abandon distortion for a bit. I'll come back for that mean beast you recommended though!
Quote from: modallaire on October 02, 2011, 09:18:13 PM
Does anyone see an obvious component that maybe fried, like D1 or something I should try first.
Most likely thing is D1 is the wrong way round, that would also explain why you got negative voltages with the polarity reversed, if D1 was correct it should have stopped that. Before you fire it up again I would remove all the ICs except the voltage regulator, power it up and make sure you get 9 volts across +9 and ground and 5 volts on pin1 of where the PT2399 goes.
Quote from: jplebre on October 03, 2011, 12:18:35 PM
I been through all these posts (seriously!) and whilst I was getting really eager to build one with the momentary footswitch for tap one recent post said it was not possible anymore.
You can add tap tempo using the Tone God's taptation available from Aron's store. http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=86294.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=86294.0)
Quote from: jplebre on October 03, 2011, 12:18:35 PM
I been through all these posts (seriously!) and whilst I was getting really eager to build one with the momentary footswitch for tap one recent post said it was not possible anymore.
Why? any alternatives?
I think for @deadastronauts despair I'll abandon distortion for a bit. I'll come back for that mean beast you recommended though!
what post said this?!?!
always been able to do it with the taptation kit as an add-on to the circuit (see slacker's post above), and that hasn't changed. aside from that, there never was anything in the stock circuit for tap that I saw (although maybe I missed it...)
Quote from: Taylor on December 27, 2010, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: tuckster on December 27, 2010, 02:29:14 PM
Is the tap tempo mod really that easy to build? http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg628311#msg628311
I know there is another thread http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=81668.0 but I'm really tired now I'm going to read it tomorrow :D
The PTAP is no longer available. The only thing right now for tap tempo PT2399 is that Taptation available in Aron's store at the top of the forum. But it also hasn't been available for a while. I think Aron will have them at some point.
from here :)
Quote from: jplebre on October 03, 2011, 03:37:32 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 27, 2010, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: tuckster on December 27, 2010, 02:29:14 PM
Is the tap tempo mod really that easy to build? http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg628311#msg628311
I know there is another thread http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=81668.0 but I'm really tired now I'm going to read it tomorrow :D
The PTAP is no longer available. The only thing right now for tap tempo PT2399 is that Taptation available in Aron's store at the top of the forum. But it also hasn't been available for a while. I think Aron will have them at some point.
from here :)
Ah. Yes, Aron and Tony have kept the Taptation in stock in Aron's store much more reliably as of late. The taptation is the way to go.
Built an echobase with all the mods (bar tap tempo) inc an FX loop.
It was inserted between the level wiper and board.
Works great!
Here is a demo of all the pedal for the guy I am making it for.
Dammit. Another pedal I have to build. ::)
I think it's about time you read the code off your XP300 so I can make my XP100 into a space station.
Someone already did that I think.
XP300 kicks ass.
They did, but the code is not available. If we had the code, we'd all be doing it!
Nice demo, glad to hear the FX loop worked out.
Quote from: slacker on October 04, 2011, 04:25:17 PM
Nice demo, glad to hear the FX loop worked out.
All thanks to you and Tayloe, good sir.
Makes me wanna make another 'base and add more mods! Might just order another PCB...
Quote from: slacker on October 03, 2011, 12:52:46 PM
Quote from: modallaire on October 02, 2011, 09:18:13 PM
Does anyone see an obvious component that maybe fried, like D1 or something I should try first.
Most likely thing is D1 is the wrong way round, that would also explain why you got negative voltages with the polarity reversed, if D1 was correct it should have stopped that. Before you fire it up again I would remove all the ICs except the voltage regulator, power it up and make sure you get 9 volts across +9 and ground and 5 volts on pin1 of where the PT2399 goes.
Thanks, that solved one problem. But I still don't have any delay. Bypass switch doesn't do anything. I always have a clean signal with no delay. LED does not come on either. I have performed voltage and audio tests. Here are the results.
Pt2399 CD4066 U1 U3 7805
1 : 5V 16 2.5V 1 : 4.5V 14 : 9.3V 1 : 2V 8 : 8.7V 1 : 5V 8 : 9.3V In 9V G 0V Out 5V
2 : 2.5 15 2.5 2 : 4.5 13 : 9.1 2 :
7.9 7 : 8 2 : 5 7 : 5
3 : 0
14 0.08 3 : 0.1 12 : 8.9 3 : 5 6 : 5 3 : 5 6 : 5
4 : 0
13 3.5 4 : 0.05 11 : 4.5 4 : 0.6 5 : 0.4 4 : 0 5 : 4.5
5 : 0 12 4.8 5 : 0 10 : 4.5
6 : 4.2 11 0.9 6 : 0
9 : 0.087 : 4.2 10 2.5 7 : 0
8 : 28 : 0 9 2.5
Audio : no signal (sometimes noise) except those noted below :
PT2399 pin 15 : clean signal all other pins without signal
CD4066 Pin 1 and 2 : clean signal
U1 : nothing
U3 pin 1, 6 and 7 : clean signal
U3 pin 5 : clean signal + hiss noise
If anyone sees something that can help, it would help me greatly.
Marc
Quote from: Barcode80 on October 03, 2011, 10:31:23 PM
Quote from: jplebre on October 03, 2011, 03:37:32 PM
Quote from: Taylor on December 27, 2010, 02:37:32 PM
Quote from: tuckster on December 27, 2010, 02:29:14 PM
Is the tap tempo mod really that easy to build? http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg628311#msg628311
I know there is another thread http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=81668.0 but I'm really tired now I'm going to read it tomorrow :D
The PTAP is no longer available. The only thing right now for tap tempo PT2399 is that Taptation available in Aron's store at the top of the forum. But it also hasn't been available for a while. I think Aron will have them at some point.
from here :)
Ah. Yes, Aron and Tony have kept the Taptation in stock in Aron's store much more reliably as of late. The taptation is the way to go.
Damn! I was pretty sure I hit reply on this!
Thank you very much Barcode!
Been trying to figure out which mods I want. I found somewhere a mod for the hardwire version, which added a 3pdt switch.
My question is, what is that extra "Flashback" mode????
Also, I don't need the CD switching anymore, but, if I want to make the LED (for bypass) work with the timing (Layout posted here) should I use the 3rd pole of the 3pdt switch on the LED (after the board), on the 5v supply of that board, or between pin 5 and that board?
Hope I made sense....
Cheers
If you mean the one from MarcoMike a few pages back then "flashback" is the same as what I called Boss mode,the output of the PT2399 is cut in bypass but the input is left connected. The extra mode is "direct" where both the input and output of the PT2399 are cut when bypassed.
Not sure which layout you mean but you probably need the switch to break the connection to the LED, doesn't matter where before it or after would both work.
Hey Slacker! Thank you for your reply!
I was referring to these 2:
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd394/jplebre/5893528138_ee7abc3672_b.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd394/jplebre/delay-tempoLEDindicator.gif)
Hmm.... so what's the difference between direct and boss? I mean both i/p and o/p get cut, and the signal still goes through the i/p buffer. Isn't there a mistake in that wiring?
For the LED question, that would be the second image. So, again, would be best to use the stomp switch for the LED on the power supply for this section, pin5 to this section or from this section to the LED?
Quote from: jplebre on October 15, 2011, 05:42:48 PM
Hmm.... so what's the difference between direct and boss? I mean both i/p and o/p get cut, and the signal still goes through the i/p buffer. Isn't there a mistake in that wiring?
When you only cut the output, the delay chip is still recording what you play - you just don't hear it. So if you have a long delay happening, and you play something right before you turn the EB on, whatever you were playing into it before you activated it will be echoing when the EB is activated.
When you cut both in and out, you only start recording into the delay when the effect is activated.
Quote from: modallaire on October 04, 2011, 11:32:29 PM
Quote from: slacker on October 03, 2011, 12:52:46 PM
Quote from: modallaire on October 02, 2011, 09:18:13 PM
Does anyone see an obvious component that maybe fried, like D1 or something I should try first.
Most likely thing is D1 is the wrong way round, that would also explain why you got negative voltages with the polarity reversed, if D1 was correct it should have stopped that. Before you fire it up again I would remove all the ICs except the voltage regulator, power it up and make sure you get 9 volts across +9 and ground and 5 volts on pin1 of where the PT2399 goes.
Thanks, that solved one problem. But I still don't have any delay. Bypass switch doesn't do anything. I always have a clean signal with no delay. LED does not come on either. I have performed voltage and audio tests. Here are the results.
Pt2399 CD4066 U1 U3 7805
1 : 5V 16 2.5V 1 : 4.5V 14 : 9.3V 1 : 2V 8 : 8.7V 1 : 5V 8 : 9.3V In 9V G 0V Out 5V
2 : 2.5 15 2.5 2 : 4.5 13 : 9.1 2 : 7.9 7 : 8 2 : 5 7 : 5
3 : 0 14 0.08 3 : 0.1 12 : 8.9 3 : 5 6 : 5 3 : 5 6 : 5
4 : 0 13 3.5 4 : 0.05 11 : 4.5 4 : 0.6 5 : 0.4 4 : 0 5 : 4.5
5 : 0 12 4.8 5 : 0 10 : 4.5
6 : 4.2 11 0.9 6 : 0 9 : 0.08
7 : 4.2 10 2.5 7 : 0 8 : 2
8 : 0 9 2.5
Audio : no signal (sometimes noise) except those noted below :
PT2399 pin 15 : clean signal all other pins without signal
CD4066 Pin 1 and 2 : clean signal
U1 : nothing
U3 pin 1, 6 and 7 : clean signal
U3 pin 5 : clean signal + hiss noise
If anyone sees something that can help, it would help me greatly.
Marc
Could someone find anything that could help me troubleshoot my pedal? I heard the result with my pcb build and am eager to play with this one.
thanks anyway,
Marc
Seems you have an issue with the CD0466. Pin 8 should be 9v.
I'm going through Slacker's reference chart posted at the beginning of the post.
Cheers
J
J's got it right, something is wrong round that part of the CD4066. Pin 6 has 0 volts on it which suggests the pedal is in bypass, but then pin 8 should have about 9 volts on it. More strangely pins 12 and 13 have about 9 volts on them, which they should only have if the pedal is on, but then pin 6 should also have 9 volts on it. I would check to see if pin 6 is shorted to ground, maybe to pin 7.
Something's not right with the PT2399 either which might explain why there's no delay, pins 11 - 14 should all be about 2.5 volts.
Check here for a full list of voltages http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg498824#msg498824 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg498824#msg498824)
Hello
Yeah I couldn't really tell if the pedal was on bypass or not because some switches had voltage, some hadn't.
Is it a fix 2.5v? Pin 5 of the PT is also 0v when you should read 3v
oppps silly me slacker posted the same table for voltages I had copied to my hard drive.
Quote from: jplebre on October 15, 2011, 05:42:48 PM
Hey Slacker! Thank you for your reply!
I was referring to these 2:
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd394/jplebre/5893528138_ee7abc3672_b.jpg)
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd394/jplebre/delay-tempoLEDindicator.gif)
Hmm.... so what's the difference between direct and boss? I mean both i/p and o/p get cut, and the signal still goes through the i/p buffer. Isn't there a mistake in that wiring?
For the LED question, that would be the second image. So, again, would be best to use the stomp switch for the LED on the power supply for this section, pin5 to this section or from this section to the LED?
is the tempo light indicator gonna blink? i want to put that in my EB to have a monitor..:))
As far as I know, that came from here (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=50185.0)
I wanted to find another post that I found about how it actually works. Aparently there was a flash every time this counted all the way up and reseted.
I've just been wondering whats the best way to wire this LED to the bypass :)
Bump anyone?
To make the LED go off in bypass you can either have the switch break the connection somewhere between +5 and the transistor, it doesn't matter where. Or you could make the switch short out the LED.
I think you could also make the switch connect the point where R3 and R4 join to ground, that should turn the LED off. This is probably the easiest way to do it, especially if you're using the other schematic as well, because you can connect the pole of the switch to ground, connect one throw to that point and the other to the negative side of the LFO LED. This will then turn both LEDs on and off at once.
Quoteswitch connect the point where R3 and R4 join to ground, that should turn the LED off. This is probably the easiest way to do it, especially if you're using the other schematic as well, because you can connect the pole of the switch to ground, connect one throw to that point and the other to the negative side of the LFO LED. This will then turn both LEDs on and off at once.
I like that! 2 birds, one stone! It would basically make the transistor always be off (no voltage at gate, no current drawn by the source). Did I get it right?
Yeah that's it.
Hi guys! I'm trying to decide wether or not to include the waveshape pot in my build. Is it useful? Or is it only fun as a noisemaker and would a switch be better? Or is it not useful at all? Any reply from someone who has experience with this mod would be appreciated.
Quote from: Fuhgawz on October 22, 2011, 09:03:59 AM
Hi guys! I'm trying to decide wether or not to include the waveshape pot in my build. Is it useful? Or is it only fun as a noisemaker and would a switch be better? Or is it not useful at all? Any reply from someone who has experience with this mod would be appreciated.
I don't know of a wave shape pot... i think you have this mixed up with the tap tremolo board taylor sells...
I think he's referring to this:
wave shape http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg518244#msg518244
hey guys!! mind if i request to anyone of you to please rescale this and put it in pdf format? :)) thanks!! ^_^
(http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/263/img914470210124770.png/)
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/23693577.html
thanks guys!!!
Fuhgawz, there's a brief demo of the wave shape here http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg810660#msg810660 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg810660#msg810660) about 1:30. I'd try it before you drill your box, it's easy enough to temporarily solder the pot in, then if you don't like it leave it out.
damn this thread goes a long way.. :)))
i think the wave mode just makes this pedal harder to balance.. for me I'd leave it out.. ^^
Yeap, no waveshape on my echobase (or there will be, as I'm still building it).
Has anyone used a different LFO waveform for the modulation?
I've experimented with a buffered ICL8038 (a little variation on the datasheet version) and found it to produce some dramatic effects, especially at lower frequencies. The only drawbacks seem to be that the ICL8038 requires a minimum of +10V, which can be tamed with a 12V regulator.
Kudos to slacker for his tireless responses.
I am now going to use some smileys because this is my first post:
:icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_mrgreen: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Quote from: jplebre on October 22, 2011, 05:02:51 PM
I think he's referring to this:wave shape http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg518244#msg518244
That's the one! It's also in Taylor's documentation, here (http://musicpcb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Echo-Base-build-PDF-updated-051810.pdf), on the last page. I have one of his PCB's.
Quote from: slacker on October 23, 2011, 06:01:38 AM
Fuhgawz, there's a brief demo of the wave shape here http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg810660#msg810660 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg810660#msg810660) about 1:30. I'd try it before you drill your box, it's easy enough to temporarily solder the pot in, then if you don't like it leave it out.
Thanks man! I can't believe I missed that demo, it's just a page earlier. D'oh! Those are some pretty crazy sounds though, I have to think about how useful those will be for me. I like to know before drilling the enclosure how many knobs I'm going to need, so the final assembly is easier. Just solder and hook up.
In that light I have another question: is it useful to add a flip switch for modulation on/off or is it enough to just turn the depth knob all the way down to turn off the modulation? In my view, less flip switches is better!
I think the wave shape is a useful mod, and its on that pink one I made, and also my own one.
However, for me its pretty set and forget. Id probably do it as an internal trimpot if I made another.
I like having the option to switch the LFO off, but really the modulation is so nice I always like it on.
Quote from: senko on October 23, 2011, 07:54:15 AM
Has anyone used a different LFO waveform for the modulation?
Random and stepped waves are quite interesting, I haven't played around with anything else.
Quote from: Fuhgawz on October 23, 2011, 08:58:25 AM
: is it useful to add a flip switch for modulation on/off or is it enough to just turn the depth knob all the way down to turn off the modulation? In my view, less flip switches is better!
Turning the modulation knob all the way down works fine. Using a toggle switch just lets you preset the depth, so if you find a nice setting you can leave the pot set there. I really added the modulation on/off to mine so I could turn the modulation on and off using a second stomp switch.
I am trying to build this as my first pedal build and there are a couple of things I am missing or don't understand. This biggest being when ordering parts (particularly resistors & caps) do I have to order a specific volt range? I am going off the PDF for this build and have done a lot of reading but just cant put it together. Thanks guys please be kind.
Hi
For resistors you want ones that rated 1/4 Watt you can use higher rated ones but they are normally bigger so won't fit the pcb or vero as easily. The other specs you'll see for resistors like the tolerance or material type aren't important.
For caps you want ones rated for at least 9 volts, anything higher than 9 volts is fine the actual value doesn't matter. After that look at the physical size of the caps to make sure they are not too big.
Hope that helps :)
YES!!! That helps an insane amount. I really am just starting to grasp this stuff. I have done some simple circuit bending, tube changing & biasing. This build is going into a childrens toy piano with a contact mic (piezo transducer) as a sound supply. Is this going to cause any problems? Also, which brand did you use mainly on the caps but resistors too if you can remember?
Just for some fun info, I recently brought a supro valco chicago 51 (1961) back to life (good cleaning and new tubes), my plan is to amp the setup with it.
PS- Here is a link to the piezo (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062402
(http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062402))
and just for fun a link to the piano (http://www.toypiano.com/product_information.asp?html_model_number=2522R (http://www.toypiano.com/product_information.asp?html_model_number=2522R))
and amp (http://www.valcopages.com/Amps.html (http://www.valcopages.com/Amps.html)) scroll down to view first amp with tele in pic
Hiyall!
Trying my first pedal build with the vero layout and i'm a bit new to electronics. Local electronics store didn't have 10M metal film resistor, can i substitute it with 9M9 ?
Would not like to hunt more parts, would like to solder the parts this weekend...
I have extra 100k carbon film resistors, and most of the build is carbon film due to having a box of those retma e12 series resistors, suppose would not
be good to slap one of those in series with 10M, due to difference in power rating?? But you tell. Don't really understand the circuit, just slapping the parts
together for now. :)
Quote from: hane12345 on November 18, 2011, 04:52:38 AM
Hiyall!
Trying my first pedal build with the vero layout and i'm a bit new to electronics. Local electronics store didn't have 10M metal film resistor, can i substitute it with 9M9 ?
Would not like to hunt more parts, would like to solder the parts this weekend...
I have extra 100k carbon film resistors, and most of the build is carbon film due to having a box of those retma e12 series resistors, suppose would not
be good to slap one of those in series with 10M, due to difference in power rating?? But you tell. Don't really understand the circuit, just slapping the parts
together for now. :)
Hey part hunter! ;D
Most resistors have a decline about +- 10% from the value that they are supposed to do...
You can use 9m9 instead of the 10m...
I don't think there would be problem if you used your 100k resistors but there is no need to do so....Don't do it! ;)
Quote from: hane12345 on November 18, 2011, 04:52:38 AM
Local electronics store didn't have 10M metal film resistor, can i substitute it with 9M9 ?
Hi
Yes you can use 9M9 if you have one, or a 100k will be fine. I can't actually remember why I used 10M, it could even be a typing mistake on my original schematic.
so, is this the last and verified TB version?
(http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd394/jplebre/5893528138_ee7abc3672_b.jpg)
and I would also ask Slaker about the PT2399 "hiss issue" and it's probable solution reported here: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92515.0
(cutting the connection between pin 3 and 4 it is)
does it work? do you suggest this mod?
thanks
This is the latest version of the true bypass version http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/tbeb2.jpg (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/tbeb2.jpg)
The schematic you posted just replaces the electronic switching with mechanical switches, it's not true bypass.
I tried the hiss reduction modification, I think I posted in that thread, to me it didn't seem to have any effect, but it did no harm.
thanks! :)
Hi Slacker, I am currently in the process of compiling info previous to start building my Echo Base :)
Got one question: since the version 2.0 has a different input buffering stage, the final signal is phase inverted. I was thinking (with my nulln knowledge of electronics theory) if it was not possible to revert this (i.e. making the output non-inverted) by taking signal from the 10k resistor coming from the delay level pot and instead of feeding into 2 of the opamp, feeding it directly into 3 with the existing resistor from Vref (similiarly to input buffer) and substituting the 1n/10k RC from 2 to 1 with just a jumper.
Do you think this is possible?
Thanks in advance and congratulations for all your work on this.
David
Hi
Yes you can do that, the problem with it is that the volume of the dry signal changes depending on the setting of the delay level pot, as the delay level is reduced the level of the dry signal goes down. Using the inverting input (pin 2) there is no interaction between the pot and the dry level.
If you want to keep the signal in phase with the input the easiest thing to go is make the input buffer inverting like in version 1, but use lower resistor values say 10k instead of the 1M. Then put a buffer in front of it, a simple JFet one will do, this gives a high input impedance so the pedal won't "tone suck" but should be quieter than version 1.
Personally I don't worry about the phase inversion, it only becomes an issue if you want to run different pedals in parallel, then the fact that the dry signal is out of phase may be a problem. The delayed signal won't be in phase anyway due to the fact that it's delayed. In a normal pedal board setup where everything is in series it makes no difference.
Thanks a lot, Slacker, for your explanation. Will let you know how it goes. Will be using Version 2 schematic so I will have to do some adaptations to anonymousfacelesscoward's PCB (which I have already etched). Surely I will need to mount ompamps and other components offboard.
Best,
David
Hi Echo Basers,
Well I finally put together my Echo Base rev. 2 (still in my lucky cardboard box, which has served as temporary housing for my DIY Sansamp Bass Driver Clone and Boss CE-2 chorus clone already).
I managed to use the first PCB layout by An....Face...Cow... and by doing some cuts, bridging, subbing and mounting of additional components (2.2uF for ticking, 47R and cap for Vrefon the same PCB well I do have a fully functioning EchoBAse rev 2.
I am very satisfied with it so far. I tried a very basic bandpass filter (hipass RC and lopass RC, 2 resistors, 2 caps) between the 10K resistor at pin 14 of the pt2399 and the 15n/100n caps junction. I did get some change in sound but presumably due to the so basic filtering the result wasmore like a loss in volume rather than authentic Boss DM-2 like degradation of highs and lows so I took it away. Would love anyway to be able to toggle some grainy repeats at will.
I am planning to build a second parallel output (with a TL071) mirroring the outpt buffer and have a jack that will interrupt the path between IN and OUT buffers so as to have completely separate dry/wet outputs. Might also add a level pot for the Dry. I take it than mirroring the output buffer from the 10K connecting to the neg input of the opamp onwards should do the trick, rite?
Finally there is something I would like to comment. Proably this is an expected behaviour. When bypassed in "Boss" mode I still can hear a VERY faint delay. If I stomp on the Echobase it will catch the repetitions from what I was playing while in bypass. Is there any workaround for this?
Thanks Slacker and all of you guys for sharing and commenting.
Warm regards from Argentina,
DAvid
EDIT: Browsing thru the post, I found this behaviour is referred to as "flashback" Maybe it can hel to describe more graphically my concern.
Nice work, converting the PCB to rev2.
Quote from: DavidM on December 06, 2011, 11:57:09 PM
I am planning to build a second parallel output (with a TL071) mirroring the outpt buffer and have a jack that will interrupt the path between IN and OUT buffers so as to have completely separate dry/wet outputs. Might also add a level pot for the Dry. I take it than mirroring the output buffer from the 10K connecting to the neg input of the opamp onwards should do the trick, rite?
Yes that should work, if you just want a separate dry out you can take the output from after the input buffer. If you then break the connection between the input buffer and the output mixer you get wet only out of the output mixer.
Quote
If I stomp on the Echobase it will catch the repetitions from what I was playing while in bypass.
That is how it is supposed to work, you should not be able to hear the delay when it's bypassed though. Some people have reported a faint delay when bypassed, on mine I can only hear it if I turn the level up and the feedback so it self oscillates, in normal use I don't hear anything. You could try changing the CD4066, using a different one might solve the problem. You could also try making the 1M5 resistor after the CD4066 pin 11 smaller, try values between 10k and 100k, that might solve it.
If you don't want it to "catch the repetitions" in bypass then you can wire the tails switch so in Boss mode it connects points A and B. That will completely remove the signal from the PT2399 in bypass.
Hi Slacker,
First of all, thanks for all your help. This is a beautiful project and I wonder what we Echobase fans could do for you. I am sure many of us would be willing to make at least a small donation or otherwise offer our help in whatever capacity. I am an English to Spanish localization professional so please bear that in mind should you need some translation work :)
Quote from: slacker on December 07, 2011, 03:17:24 PM
Nice work, converting the PCB to rev2.
I took some notes while doing this. I worked on the "old" AnonFaceCow PCB. It took me some patient reasoning and rechecking but in the end everything worked perfectly at first start. Should anyone be interested then I would be glad to help. I added all features in Rev 2 except for the flashing LED. Anti-ticking capacitor, decoupling capacitor for Mod Depth, Vref section and improved buffers were implemented and everything on the same PCB (did some side-mounting of components and careful wiring with heatshrink but turned out quite sturdy.)
I did change the two 47K resistors and used 27K instead. This cured at once 1) the higher level of the delayed signal relative to Dry 2) the feedback pot kicking in too early.
Quote from: DavidM on December 06, 2011, 11:57:09 PM
I am planning to build a second parallel output (with a TL071) mirroring the outpt buffer and have a jack that will interrupt the path between IN and OUT buffers so as to have completely separate dry/wet outputs. Might also add a level pot for the Dry. I take it than mirroring the output buffer from the 10K connecting to the neg input of the opamp onwards should do the trick, rite?
Quote from: slacker on December 07, 2011, 03:17:24 PM
Yes that should work, if you just want a separate dry out you can take the output from after the input buffer. If you then break the connection between the input buffer and the output mixer you get wet only out of the output mixer.
So you mean that I should be OK taking the output from INput buffer after the 10K and wire that directly without an output buffer if I wanted only dry? Please clarify since my idea is to have this option: "normal" Echobase and a second jack. When plugging into the second jack, it will break the connection from the "dry" signal coming from Input buffer. Then I would use a mirror output buffer for connecting the output of the Input buffer and thus have discrete separate ouptuts for Dry and Delay. From what I infer, your suggestion (if I understood correctly) not only makes a mirror output buffer redundant but would also provide a Dry output with the same phase as the original signal.
Quote
If I stomp on the Echobase it will catch the repetitions from what I was playing while in bypass.
Quote from: slacker on December 07, 2011, 03:17:24 PM
That is how it is supposed to work, you should not be able to hear the delay when it's bypassed though. Some people have reported a faint delay when bypassed, on mine I can only hear it if I turn the level up and the feedback so it self oscillates, in normal use I don't hear anything. You could try changing the CD4066, using a different one might solve the problem. You could also try making the 1M5 resistor after the CD4066 pin 11 smaller, try values between 10k and 100k, that might solve it.
If you don't want it to "catch the repetitions" in bypass then you can wire the tails switch so in Boss mode it connects points A and B. That will completely remove the signal from the PT2399 in bypass.
Strangely enough today I was not able to hear the faint delayed signal in Bypass mode. Maybe it only happens when maxing all knobs. Thanks again for the tips on this and especially on the Boss/Tails mod. Will try them and for sure let you know.
Best,
David
guys! mind if you properly document this? :))
include all the latest mods, revisions, versions and just put it into 1 pdf so that it would be easier to all of us.. :))
and also the ready-to-print pcbs :))
^ by all means, please do!
Quote from: DavidM on December 07, 2011, 11:17:04 PM
First of all, thanks for all your help. This is a beautiful project and I wonder what we Echobase fans could do for you. I am sure many of us would be willing to make at least a small donation or otherwise offer our help in whatever capacity. I am an English to Spanish localization professional so please bear that in mind should you need some translation work :)
Thanks for the kind words David, my Spanish extends are far as greetings and ordering up to cinco cervezas if I ever need anything else I may call on your skills :)
I thought a picture would be the easiest way to show what I meant with the separate dry and wet outs.
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=46718&g2_serialNumber=2)
The switch would be part of the dry out jack, which would be a switched type jack. With nothing in the dry out jack the Out would act as normal and give a mix of dry and delayed signal. Inserting a plug into dry out would break the connection giving only the delayed signal from the normal out. The extra 10k resistor to Vref is to correctly bias the U3A, I'm not 100% sure that it's needed but it will do no harm. There may be a neater way to do this but i think it should work.
Quote from: jan007magic on December 07, 2011, 11:33:35 PM
guys! mind if you properly document this? :))
It's something I keep intending to do but never get round to, nothing stopping anyone else from doing it ;)
Hi Slacker,
Thanks for your explanation. I am glad I will not need yet another opamp for this mod :)
As you might have inferred by now I have no real electronics knowledge, but nevertheless I am quite intuitive (if I say so) and am keen on learning by asking and comparing. Your picture is really clear to me. Aside from the fact I don't quite get why the Vref-10K to neg input of output buffer and the 100n were added, I came up with another way of accomplishing my goal. Please see picture:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7003/6480302651_910b2190a9.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmochen/6480302651/)
echobaserev2 dry out (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmochen/6480302651/) by **Timelord** (http://www.flickr.com/people/davidmochen/), on Flickr
This mod needs a Stereo jack with cut for the Dry Output. The cut works as expected and the Stereo lug allows to bridge the path from the 100K resistor to ground only when a the Dry output is used. What I perceive as a benefit with this way is that the Dry Output is totally isolated when nothing is plugged into it.
Please also noticed I made a small circle with an annotation (for lack of space) regarding addition of a 100K level pot-100n combo for the Dry, which would work both in normal mode and in Dry Output mode.
EDIT: Do you think this could work?
Once again, thanks very much for all your patience.
Best,
David
Yes what you've drawn will work, I was going to suggest the same thing but I couldn't think how to make the Jack break the connection between the output of U3B and the 10k resistor. You don't need to break the connection between the 100k resistor and ground, the opamp will happily drive the dry out with nothing connected with no ill effects, doing so won't do any harm though.
I've thought about what I drew some more and you don't need the extra 10k resistor to vref. The reason for the 100n cap is because pin 2 of U3A will be at 4 or 5 volts DC and you don't want this getting to the output, the cap blocks the DC voltage.
You can add a volume pot like you suggest, you will need a capacitor either side of the pot, the same as the level control. Or if you use my method, you can simply replace the 100k resistor with a pot and take the dry out and the switched connection from the wiper. This would give you control of the dry volume in both modes.
I really like these mods, I'm surprised it has taken so long for someone to suggest them :)
Excellent, Slacker. Will take some time to try these and then I will upload an updated schematic for the Dry Out mod I will end up using.
Will also have to try the Boss/Tails switch mod so as not to have the E.B. "catching in the background" whatever I am playing while in Bypass-Boss mode.
Aside from these mods, I am more than happy with my Echobase so far. I thought of implementing the second PT mod and while I could certainly do t (got a bunch of PTs in store) I am not really sure if i need that for my bass playing. The waveshape for vibrato looks cool but I don't think i will build that one either.
I might try a 3pdt switch for toggling between two sets of Time/Feedback so as to have a "slapback" preset setting and another setting. I checked one way to do this in which the time pots are in series but I was wondering whereas the position of the first pot will afect, even disengaged, the range of Pot 2.
I have built a Boss CE-2 clone and I was able to successfully implement a 3pdt for toggling between 2 rate knobs, each with its LED. So I would try something along those lines.
EDIT: Now I see your point in the cut breaking the connection from U3B into the 10K resistor. I think you are right in that there is no way of achieving it. I will try yor way then most surely.
Thanks forever :)
D
i'm not gonna build this.. yet.. :)) not until all the great mod ideashave been posted.. haha!! i think the ending of thisthreadisthat.. we'll have a stompbox with... drum roll please...
4-5 FW, 5-6 toggle switches, 7-10 potentiometers, 4-5 LEDs, with an fx loop.. :DD
Quote from: jan007magic on December 09, 2011, 09:05:28 PM
i'm not gonna build this.. yet.. :)) not until all the great mod ideashave been posted.. haha!! i think the ending of thisthreadisthat.. we'll have a stompbox with... drum roll please...
4-5 FW, 5-6 toggle switches, 7-10 potentiometers, 4-5 LEDs, with an fx loop.. :DD
Hi jan007,
The beauty of most DIY projects is precisely that they can be customized and tailored to death. Do not let that despair you.
Check http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=43077 for many mods ideas.
Then figure out what you need or want to try and look in the thread. I know... huge. But doable.
BEst
David
i know the echo base can work as a chorus pedal but i wonder if it works as great as compared to a "chorus" pedal itself. any ideas?
The chorus is a bit of a bonus feature, compared to a chorus pedal it's very limited. If you want a simple chorus pedal then you'd be better off building Rick's Little Angel.
Quote from: slacker on January 06, 2012, 11:53:40 AM
The chorus is a bit of a bonus feature, compared to a chorus pedal it's very limited. If you want a simple chorus pedal then you'd be better off building Rick's Little Angel.
i guess you're right.
OT.
the little angel VS this one "http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=92872.20"
which do you think should you build if you were in my shoes?and why?
thanks..
I haven't tried the other one, so I can't say. They're both easy enough to breadboard so try them both :)
Boss CE-2 for me, sirs. Built one and I love it.
EDIT: though it would not qualify as "simple", for sure...
Finally got my Echobase working, using the anonymous-etc layout. Was driving me absolutely nuts. None of the voltages were right and I couldn't get anything out of it. Checked and rechecked the board for solder bridges, cracks, and misinstalled components. Finally realized that the protection diode on the V+ input was in backwards so I flipped it around but that didn't do it, either.
Late last night, I tried connecting my battery snap to another point on the board, and when I unsoldered it and measured the voltage coming from the battery, realized that there was nothng on the board itself dragging V+ down to well under a volt, but that it was the damn battery snap itself doing it! Swapped in another battery snap for the old one, and bingo-bango it worked perfectly.
:icon_redface: :icon_redface: :icon_redface: (butt of hand against forehead) Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!!
Now to tailor it to taste. I haven't browsed through the 62 screens here, so someone else might have already done it, but I have to say the manner in which those "boingy" modulated repeats have a sort of call-and-response feel to them, it really prompts one to want to use momentary switches for this beast, so you can insert the responses but continue to play without creating more of them.
I like the term boingy, don't think anyone's ever called it that before. Quick word of warning if you're running it off a battery, the modulation stops working when the battery is worn but still has enough juice to power the rest of the circuit. It's a bit of a design flaw that's caught a few people out.
You can add momentary bypass by putting a momentary SPST stomp in parallel with the normal bypass stomp, or just replace the standard one if you only want the momentary. You can also add a second stomp. momentary or latching to short out the 1uF cap in the LFO, this kills the modulation.
Great ideas! Now I just have to figure out what I'm going to need to install it in to make use of those options. I suspect this will demand a 1590BB, even though the board and controls will easily fit into the 125-B. Adding the momentary will require placing the switches in a location where the box won't be flipped over when you step.
Well, did the machining and legending last night, with just a few more wires to connect before relaunch.
I installed it into a 1590BB. In retrospect, I should have installed it the "wide" way, rather than the narrow way, so that I could space the footswitches farther apart and make them easier targets, but I was too damn lazy to redo the wiring to permit spreading the 5 controls out along the rear skirt. (I'll mod this message and post a picture later tonight)
In any event, the build has two large-diameter momentary buttons on either side of the stompswitch: one called "punch in" and the other called "lfo kill". The punch-in is nothing more than a normally-open SPST momentary in parallel with the latching stompswitch, and essentially works in tandem with the tails switch. So, leave the tails on, and the primary stompswitch off, and you can "punch in" with the momentary for a phrase and just lift your foot off and keep playing with the dying repeats.
The lfo-kill works a little counterintuitively, but as a somethng-for-next-to-nothing feature, I can live with it. If you want to play without the modulation, you need to hold the button down, and releasing it brings the modulation back in. Personally, I would rather have it work in the opposite fashion, so that one could step on it for that momentarily wobblization, like John Scofield uses. I suppose I could do that with a normally-closed switch, but it would necessitate other changes to the circuit, and maybe another toggle for enabling.
I have to say that the use of SPST electronic switching makes a number of very useful performance features possible. Thanks! :icon_biggrin:
@mark: great idea on the punch in momentary with tails.......cool.. :icon_cool:
Thanks. While there are plenty of commercial delay pedals that offer a tails function, I'm not convinced they are all thought out in terms of usability for performance purposes. For example, my Echo Park pedal has tails, but only if you bypass the pedal with a footpress that is harder than the footpress required for tap tempo. And if you want another note or phrase to be repeated, you need to once again press hard to engage and press hard again to bypass and let the tails ring out. Great pedal but it is most certainly NOT compatible with an easy phrase-wise use of the feature. This latched+unlatched parallel arrangement allows for more seamless use of the tails feature by having a single foot motion represent "I want this", and lifting your foot represent "I don't want that". As such, it integrates into the cognitive planning of one's playing more smoothly. And heck, now I can play the solo at the end of "Don't Stop Believing" properly! :icon_mrgreen: (hmmm, now I wonder if the EHX Freeze would permit the addition of such an arrangement?)
David Torn has some big momentary pushbuttons on one of his Koll guitars for instaneous injection of specific sounds. I just adapted that to my scenario. Personally, I think pretty much every ring modulator ought to come with a momentary punch-in feature....but that's another thread entirely. :icon_wink:
Here's what I did, and described earlier today:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/mhammer/Echobase.jpg)
^ nice build..love those buttons.....they really suit it.... :icon_cool: :icon_cool: :icon_cool:
Thanks. Like I say, I'm kind of regretting that I didn't install along the other box orientation so I could spread the buttons farther apart. After I finished wiring it up in its new home last night, I tried it out, and while it is possible to use the momentaries in the manner described, you need to have good thoughtful aim. The punch-in button works great, but that's an awfully close mini-toggle, there, that demands care.
Next time I try something like this, it all goes in a different location.
Don't know how many of you are familiar with the units that the Electrix company out in Victoria used to make, like the Filter factory, Filter Queen, and Warp Factor. They were desktop/rack effects targetting DJs, that had momentary switches for pushbutton effects. Even if the poor locating of my own momentary buttons is not optimal for foot use, it still works nice for push-button use.
Looks great Mark.
Quote from: Mark Hammer on February 22, 2012, 09:46:38 AM
I have to say that the use of SPST electronic switching makes a number of very useful performance features possible. Thanks!
Yeah it's a shame that we're so stuck on the idea that True bypass is best, there's all manner of interesting things that can be done with electronic and other buffered switching arrangements if you can sell it to the masses. For example, another thing you can do with this, that I don't think anyone has exploited, is have the stomp switch remote from the pedal. So you can put the pedal on top of your amp or in a rack and have the stomp on your pedalboard.
Or you can switch it using an electronic singnal, low is on, high is bypass. I know a few synth guys have experimented with this, having gates and things turn it on and off.
Great suggestions. In truth, a great many time-based and modulation effects simply cancel the "non-dry" signal, and are quite amenable to remote switching. Most of them use flip-flops, however, so the momentary - whether remote or on-board - provides latched switching, with no other alternative. By use of a 4066, the EB provides non-latched switching as an option, which I find more flexible for doing the sorts of things I suggested.
Here's a pic of my completed Echo Base, with a few of the basic mods. I chose a waveshape switch to toggle between square and sine, since I wanted the option but doubted I would spend much time fiddling with that knob. I highly recommend the momentary foot switch ('punch'). Someday, I'll put it in an enclosure fit for such a fine circuit. Thanks Slacker!
(http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/148/ee2522d48fec4fb9aa23b5f481c265ff/l.jpg)
Nice work, garcho. Glad you like the punch-in function.
I hasten to remind folks that it can be located outside of the pedal itself, without difficulty. A little hole popped in the side of the box for a mini phone jack (or your connector of choice) will allow one to situate a/the momentary switch in another location where one can reach for it in as much haste and urgency as you want without having to worry about hitting anything else with one's steel-toed work boots.
Such momentary buttons are alsoa reason to consider using those trapezoidal boxes that Hammond came out with recently. Msst folks might look at them with the assumption that the wide side should be the rear skirt, bvut there is nothing wrong with making it thew front skirt, and spacing some footswitches a little farther apart.
(http://www.hammondmfg.com/jpeg2/1590TRPC_AB.jpg)
No offense, Mr. Hammer, your knowledge and gentlemanliness are part of what makes this the best DIY effects forum on the internet, but Slacker mentioned the momentary switch on page 2 of this thread. ;)
I love momentary switches, they're good for punching in lots of things: LFO depth, feedback loop, distortion for that one really intense measure, etc. But what could possibly beat a momentary on an Echo Base with tails?! King Tubby is smiling in his grave.
By the way, thanks for posting that enclosure, what an awesome shape! Time to order a few...
No offense taken. With so many dozens of pages of posts on this one, I knew I was bound to miss something! :icon_lol:
Gotta love King Tubby. Somewhere in the basement, I have my 7" copy of Augustus Pablo singing "Baby, I Love You So", which I seem to recall has a mix of "KT Meets the Rockers Uptown" on the flip side. Love that piercing echo. Replace the 100nf cap just after the repeat control with a smaller value, like 22nf or even 10nf for a progressive trimming of bass and mids on each repeat for that rub-a-dub-dub sound.
I have to order me a couple of those trapezoid boxes too.
QuoteReplace the 100nf cap just after the repeat control with a smaller value, like 22nf or even 10nf for a progressive trimming of bass and mids on each repeat for that rub-a-dub-dub sound.
Thanks for the tip!
Thanks Slacker for the great circuit.
Finally got mine debugged and working (vero layout).
here's the finished unit.
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m499/pyr08/My%20Pedals/EchoBase1.jpg)
Alan
NICE BUILD! can you post the whole schematic "MOD" :D thank you
@Garcho and Pyr0, nice builds.
Haven't had a chance or nerve to test it out yet but the voltages seem to be in order.
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_4024.jpg)
dave
Tried it out today and it's a blast, haven't had an analogue delay to play with before. Had the 560 in wrong way around (socketed) so fixed that and have the time and depth pots wired backwards (duh) no big deal. Nothing i can add that hasn't been said so thanks Ian for a great project and babysitting it through 60 odd pages and counting.
All the best!
dave
Is the link to the schematic in the first post the most current one?
I ask because I am going to build another one sometime this year.
But due to size constraints, its going to be SMD.
Probably won't be done until near the end of the year (2012) though.
I would build this version http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobaserev2.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobaserev2.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1) it has a number of improvements over the original. The buffers are quieter, the LED flashes to indicate modulation speed, and the modulation depth pot causes less interaction with the delay time.
I'd be interesting in seeing an SMD version :)
Quote from: slacker on April 02, 2012, 01:18:05 PM
I would build this version http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobaserev2.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobaserev2.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1) it has a number of improvements over the original. The buffers are quieter, the LED flashes to indicate modulation speed, and the modulation depth pot causes less interaction with the delay time.
I'd be interesting in seeing an SMD version :)
Yeah, me too :)
But like I said, probably be near the end of the year (2012).
I've never designed an SMD PCB, But I have built many, many of them by hand.
By the time I get started on it, it will likely change. Or Not.
I'll build a regular one first though. And maybe mess with it (I have a hard time leaving any designs alone, unless I'm going for authentic vintage).
Quote from: slacker on April 02, 2012, 01:18:05 PM
I would build this version http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobaserev2.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/slackers-stuff/album170/echobaserev2.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1) it has a number of improvements over the original. The buffers are quieter, the LED flashes to indicate modulation speed, and the modulation depth pot causes less interaction with the delay time.
I'd be interesting in seeing an SMD version :)
Could someone give me the vero layout of the newest version (with the three switches)? Thanks. :)
^ and the pcb layout too?..
Quote from: Shawbrook on April 25, 2012, 04:41:26 PM
Could someone give me the vero layout of the newest version (with the three switches)? Thanks. :)
I used the one from Sabrotone, Harald really does great vero layouts. I'm not sure if it's the latest, but it has options for most of the mods, I left out the humbucker switch on mine,
http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/EchoBase.gif
well worth building
Alan
Cool, never knew that existed, thanks for posting it and thanks to Harald for doing it. Yeah that's the latest version, same as Taylor's pcb version.
Quote from: Pyr0 on April 26, 2012, 07:32:25 AM
Quote from: Shawbrook on April 25, 2012, 04:41:26 PM
Could someone give me the vero layout of the newest version (with the three switches)? Thanks. :)
I used the one from Sabrotone, Harald really does great vero layouts. I'm not sure if it's the latest, but it has options for most of the mods, I left out the humbucker switch on mine,
http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/EchoBase.gif
well worth building
Alan
What exactly do the feedback and humbucker switches do?
Humbucker option is supposed to make the pedal behave better with humbucking pickups, but I didnt really notice much difference.
The feedback switch sends it into unstable self oscillations, I have a momentary footswitch for the feedback sw.
Thank you, also is this PCB of the final version: http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay/ ?
And also (probably a noob question) how do I add a feedback loop? :)
Yeah that pcb is the final version, very nice it is too. There's details for adding various fx loops/feedback loops in this thread search back through it.
Phew!! Reading this thread was a marathon endeavor, now I'm really pumped to make my echobase. Too bad I ordered the PCB but no PT2399 :icon_evil:
Oh well, a few more days and soon the echopocalypse will be cohmpleeetee :icon_twisted:
Got my echo base boxed and working, it's a great pedal indeed especially with all the mods. However, I'd like to add fx loop and have a dry/wet switch for that. Using this (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/echobasenotes.png) schematic I'm trying to switch between loops for A and B, but how would I do that? Do I need 4PDT for that? Also could it be possible to use on-off-on switch to turn off the loop?
Yes a 4PDT would work, you would need a separate switch to turn the loop off though an on-off-on would not work. You could use a 4P3T rotary switch to give you A - off - B.
hello, : ;)
I tried to read as much as possible this thread, but since it is in English I is laborious and only I could understand something. :-\
Question: This effect can function as true bypass? :-[
Because I think I read that this could not be done >:( , but I think, if I have the in and out of effect, with a dpdt or 3pdtd not sufficient to enable or disable it? :icon_razz:
Thanks for your responses.
Greetings from Peru.
Echo Base can be wired for true bypass. However, the circuit is designed to function without true bypass. This allows for the "tails" feature, where the effect continues and fades out after switching to bypass mode. I hope that answers your question :)
Thank you.
I understand something. So, I have no problem doing true bypass? Because I like the sound.
I'll do it anyway and for any doubt, count on you.
Like the Colonel said, you can wire it for true bypass but by doing so you will lose the possibility of the "tails" feature. In my opinion, it's a more useful feature than true bypass for this particular pedal.
Hi guys,
I've built my second EB but I have some problems with debugging.
What happens is that both in On and Bypass status the unit is not producing a clean sound but just a motorboating noise. The pots are changing the motorboat noise in some way, but I can't get the unit to work.
I post my IC voltages, I hope someone can chime in and give some ideas.
I've already checked components values, pcb traces (no shorts) and all the wiring. The only component substitution i had is a 2N5088 instead of a 2N5089.
Please help me
4066
1 6.75
2 6.75
3 0.93
4 0.55
5 0
6 0.55
7 0
8 8.91
9 0.44
10 7.2 (floating)
11 7.2 (floating)
12 8.72
13 1.39
14 8.91
2399
1 7.87
2 3.92
3 0
4 0
5 4.67
6 3.86
7 4.36
8 0.63
9 3.92
10 3.92
11 3.92
12 3.83
13 3.91
14 7.2 (floating)
15 3.92
16 3.92
072
1 7.57
2 2.25
3 7.87
4 0.83
5 5.61
6 7.87
7 2.16
8 8.18
072
1 7.57
2 6.9
3 7.87
4 0
5 7.87
6 7.87
7 7.87
8 9.04
Your regulator isn't regulating, pin 1 of the PT2399 should be 5 volts. Assuming you've used sockets, remove the PT 2399 and double check that the regulator is in the right way round and that all the connections to it are correct. Check the voltage on pin1 of the PT2399's socket and once you have 5 volts there, insert the PT2399. If you're lucky you haven't killed it everything should work. If bypass is fine but the delay doesn't work then you've probably fried the PT2399 :(
I have a question, is it ok to use electrolytics for the 1uf caps? and assuming the stripe side would be soldered to the side that traces to ground?
There's only one 1uF cap and it should really be non polarised, so use a film cap or a ceramic. Having said that an electrolytic will probably work fine, you can put it in either way round.
Sorry to paste this from another thread, but I could use some input:
Okay, heres a weird one... I want to trick this thing out and I need some help implementing an idea. I have a buddha machine on the way :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BUDDHA-MACHINE-III-CLEAR-DRONE-BOX-FM3-SUNN-0-/320921488125?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab8694afd
It is a drone generator with meditative sounds recorded on a chip. AFAIK the box itself has two controls : Play and Pitch. I want to take the board from this box and have it wired to play the loops through the effect. I'm thinking a parallel set of switches, a latching and momentary so you can either stomp it and just have the drone play continuously or hold the momentary for a bit of drone here and there. I guess it would also be desirable to have a toggle to select whether the drone plays through the delay or just goes straight through. The pitch control stays, I'm going to side mount the pot with a big knob so you can adjust it with your foot. Also the drone will need its own volume, that should be the easy part.
Anyways, thats my idea. It is an incredibly specific to the request of the guitar player in my band, he will create droning loops with his boss delay but it takes a bit to get something interesting going. We started playing with the Buddha Machine app on iphone and came up with the idea to have some way to really integrate a drone generator to the pedal chain. We had a few drinks...
Oh GeeWhiz! I built this already, I was meaning to post this for the Engineers Thumb Compressor, DOH! But I will take the advice accordingly! Thanks!
Quote from: Colonel Angus on June 15, 2012, 04:35:23 PM
Sorry to paste this from another thread, but I could use some input:
Sounds like a cool idea, you seem to have it pretty well figured out, what do you need some help with?
I guess primarily my question would be how to couple the buddha box output to the guitar signal. Would it just connect to the circuit input the same as the guitar? Also wiring a toggle and stomp in parallel, is that as obvious as it sounds?
We'll see what unknown challenges the Buddha box will present...
Just thought I would share a pic of mine. Awesome pedal.
(http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb321/bitracer/Pedals/012.jpg)
Very nice
Quote from: slacker on June 11, 2012, 02:19:41 PM
Your regulator isn't regulating, pin 1 of the PT2399 should be 5 volts. Assuming you've used sockets, remove the PT 2399 and double check that the regulator is in the right way round and that all the connections to it are correct. Check the voltage on pin1 of the PT2399's socket and once you have 5 volts there, insert the PT2399. If you're lucky you haven't killed it everything should work. If bypass is fine but the delay doesn't work then you've probably fried the PT2399 :(
Hi Slacker,
thanks a lot for your reply; your comment was spot-on! I had a regulator from a different manufacturer and I placed it without checking datasheet!
Replaced regulator and the fried 2399 and now we got echoooo o o o o o o
Thanks you!
No problem, glad you got it working.
Originally had a 5532 as the buffer opamp and things were extremely hissy. Changed it to a TL072 and that had a dramatic effect, hiss was only noticable if you were paying close attention wanting to hear it. Made up a little board with the new input buffer on it (passives for the output buffer are on the main board) and to my ear, the new buffer's transparent.
Only had to pull the TL072 from it's socket, plug it into the socket on the buffer board then plug the new board into the TL072's old socket and exchaged the input wires. A piece of weatherstripping on the back cover presses on the TL072 to keep it all firmly in place.
...and the latest schematic shows a new 2.2uf cap shown in the LFO section, what is the purpose of that cap? What do i stand to gain by adding one to my pedal?
Great pedal, loads of fun!
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_4405.jpg)
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_4407.jpg)
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_4397.jpg)
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_4465.jpg)
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_4463.jpg)
dave
Neat. What's the orangeish hookup wire? Looks classy!
Very clever Dave, I take it your little mod board gives you the non inverting input buffer off version 2?
Some people reported ticking from the LFO, the 2.2uF cap is to combat that.
^Yes the non-inverting buffer from version 2. No detectable LFO ticking so will leave well-enough alone.
The shiny orange wire is Teflon/Kapton sleeved coax. Great to work with, to prep the shield for connecting i just take off ½˝ or so of insulation, wrap the base of the braided shield with hook-up wire, solder the hook-up to the shield, trim off the excess shield and cover up with heatshrink. Never have to worry about creating a short between the shield and main conductor.
Nice small ×-section, bought a few years ago from John's Silver Teflon Shop,ebay. http://stores.ebay.com/Johns-Silver-Teflon-Wire-Shop
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/50-5.jpg) (http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/50-6.jpg)
too. many. pages.
can someone verify that this perfboard layout is up to date with any and all improvements/updates to this project? http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/EB01.gif
thanks!
No that layout is for the original version, wouldn't be too hard to modify it into the latest version, it's mostly changes around IC3. I might have a go, but I haven't got much time at the moment, maybe someone else could have a look.
As far as I know the only layout for the latest version is this vero one http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/EchoBase.gif (http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/EchoBase.gif)
Thanks a lot!
In that layout, though, I notice there are extra features. I'm fine with building one that just has the 5 knobs, a bypass and a tails switch. Are there many more differences between the perf layout and the one you posted besides the added features?
The main differences are that the new version uses a different input section that is much quieter than the original one, and the LED flashes in time with the modulation. The rest of the extra stuff on the layout are mods, they are explained here (http://musicpcb.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Echo-Base-build-PDF-updated-051810.pdf).
If you want to build it without any of the mods then just ignore Mod SW1 and Mod SW2, feedback SW1 and feedback SW2, just don't connect anything to them. Then use jumper wires to connect Dry SW1 to Dry SW2 and Humbucker SW1 to Feedback 2.
Awesome, thanks so much!
I just read the entire thread, and now am interested in a few of the mods. But let me ask just a couple final questions to clarify. When comparing that vero layout to the pdf you just linked too, I think all of the mods are the same but with different names. Can you verify for me that I'm reading this right?
"Dry SW" on your vero = "clean signal kill mod"
"Feedback SW" = dub madness mod
"Humbucker SW" = diode lift mod (BTW, what was determined to work better for hotter pickups, lifting diodes or changing the 47k resistors to 22k?)
"Mod SW" = "LFO sw"
I just want to make sure I've matched up these two documents correctly so I can decide which ones I want to incorporate into my build. Thanks so much, this is an awesome project!
Yes those are correct. Personally, I think for hot pickups changing the resistors to 22k is the best solution or the one to try first. The diode lift mod is more of a personal taste thing, some people like the bit of distortion they add at higher feedback settings some don't, the switch lets you have both options.
awesome. final question. where are you guys buying veroboard?
the store on this site seems to be out, mouser sells it for a ridiculous price, most of what comes up on ebay isn't actually stripboard, futurelec appears to be out, and my standby tayda electronics sells it but it is like two rows and 5 columns too small!
i'd gladly paypal a forum member if someone has extra they would like to get rid of for a reasonable price...
Hi everyone,
just one question: can I use a tantalum cap instead of film for the 1uF ? if so, polarity doesn't matter right?
thanks
nic
I have not tried it, but I think it should work, polarity does not matter. A ceramic capacitor would be better if you can't find a film.
ok, thank you!
i've seen some demos of this delay, and was looking for one to see if i should do the dry cut mod. i've had the thing built for a couple weeks and it is a blast, so i added the dry cut switch and got it to do some weird stuff, but i dont understand why people say you can use this to get a nice tremolo effect...without the dry signal, you get lag time between playing a note and hearing it, even on the lowest time setting. This totally throws me off and i can't see it being that practical. does anyone use this? someone want to do a demo of how to make it sound good?
thanks!
I've got no idea how you'd get a tremolo effect, never seen that talked about before. Very short times with no dry signal will give vibrato or pitch bending sounds. There will always be some delay between what you play and what you hear, same as any delay that has a wet only setting.
thanks, i always get vibrato and tremolo mixed up. i fooled around some more, its definitely interesting with the dry cut. however, i also notice that cutting the dry signal also affects it when the effect is not engaged, so no sound comes out with the pedal off and the dry cut on. any way around this?
Quote from: elflicho87 on September 18, 2012, 01:02:52 PM
Hi everyone,
just one question: can I use a tantalum cap instead of film for the 1uF ? if so, polarity doesn't matter right?
thanks
nic
Tantalum caps
are polarised.
Hi,,,best diy echo ever IMO. Second one i've built but I still can't get any difference in delay saturation with diode lift mod. I've even gone overboard with the diodes adding more for asymetrical but regardless I can hear no difference when toggled even when the echoes are wildly running away. Not a big deal just wondering if anyone else has noticed this. Should the diodes be across the entire feedback pot?? (lugs 1 and 3) and not wiper to ground?? Only other thing is has anyone come up with a solution to slow down the dub madness rise to oscillation? I've tried replacing the 27k mod resistor to a 100k pot and it's always the same. These are not big issues I know just looking for solutions to my finicky probs. THANKS!
Quotehas anyone come up with a solution to slow down the dub madness rise to oscillation? I've tried replacing the 27k mod resistor to a 100k pot and it's always the same.
I'd like to know that also.
I just finished this...with problems.
1. The delay time I get goes from way too long to painfully long. Is there not short dealy, like 100 - 200 ms delay?
2. I can't hear anything happening in the Mod section at all. I pretty much get a straight delay no matter how I set the Mod controls.
3. If I cut clean I get NO ouput on bypass. Is that normal?
4. Can't hear anything happening when I switch in Dub Madness.
Thanks.
Problems 1 and 2 are probably related, sounds like something is wrong between the LFO and the PNP transistor that is causing the transistor to be off all the time, this would give the long minimum delay times. I would start be checking all the connections to the PNP transistor and the mod depth pot, make sure all the connections are good and that there are no blobs of solder or anything shorting the connections.
No signal in bypass with the "clean kill" mod is normal. If you want bypass to work with the mod then use a DPDT switch for the bypass switch using one side for bypass and wire the other side across the clean kill switch so that in bypass it shorts out the switch. If that doesn't make sense let me know and I'll draw a diagram.
If the pedal self oscillates with the feedback on maximum but the dub madness doesn't work it's probably a wiring error. If the pedal doesn't self oscillate then you have some other problem.
THANKS!!!
I'll start with 1&2 first. I assume you're talking about the BD560. I'll check that first.
I'll probably need a diagram for the switch. I understand what you're saying, I just have a hard time visualizing it as I'm just getting started in the DIY world. I probably should have picked an easier project to start with. My next project is a Tremolo and that is already much simpler.
First of all, thanks Slacker for all of the time and patience you have with everyone in helping and answering questions, including all the other helpful members here who have done the same. This is an awesome pedal and I really appreciate you sharing your efforts for the DIY community. I have built this a few months back and it sounds great. My memory sucks, but I recall doing a couple of mods to combat the tick or "flup flup flup" noise I get with the pedal. If I recall I had put a 100ohm resistor and also changed the feedback value from "stock" so it would not get the self oscillating phenomenon too quickly. I read somewhere about changing caps on a couple of pair of pins on the pt2399. My pedal was built on vero from the Sabrotone website. I did omit the humbucker switch(if this is the pedal that had that, darn memory) I have sifted through most of these pages but there are so many and my connection rather slow that I get burnt out and by the time I get back to this I end up forgetting my decisions, lol. I have kept some condensed notes but still I end up spending time comprehending what I was going to do. Last I recall I had looked at the caps that were discussed and tried to figure out which caps on the veroboard to match up what to change, but it had seemed like those were already the values discussed. All in all, I really do not know enough about it and basically see several suggestions but am looking to narrow down to one or two areas that need changes and/or possibly cap trials to get rid of the noise. It doesn't come through when playing loud, but it isn't satisfactory if I need silence, and it is there and has a slight tone suck even if the pedal is off(tone suck is bearable and not a big deal but the noise I would like to do away with) Thank you for any input.
:) I'm very keen to start on this today and wondered if anyone could tell me where to connect the jacks for a dry loop?
:) Sorry, accidentally posted without completing my question! I'm using this layout http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/EchoBase.gif
Not sure what you mean by a dry loop, if you can explain what you want I can probably tell you how to do it.
:)Thanks Slacker. I mean the FX loop! I should sift back through the thread but became impatient sorry!
Also in Sabro's layout for C2, if I use an electrolytic cap which side is positive?
Thanks
good day! Im searching for its correct pcb layout (Echoebase). where can I see it? the correct and final one?
Quotegood day! Im searching for its correct pcb layout (Echoebase). where can I see it? the correct and final one?
Not to brown-nose, but if you have $14, Taylor's PCB (http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay/) is very high quality, comes with an extensive PDF, and will save you time and headache. It'll take you less than 10 minutes to populate the board. Considering it's a slightly complicated circuit and vero board isn't the cheapest, this is a great way to build the Echo Base.
Gary's right Taylor's PCB is great, if you want the latest version of the Echo Base then as far as I know that is the only PCB available. The layout for the earlier version is here http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171)
I'm going to attempt to build an Echo Base with almost every mod - not quite every, but most. I've bought a pcb from musicpcb.com and will put in all the mods suggested on the documentation (clean signal kill, diode lift, dub madness and wave shape pot). Simple enough - however i want to also add a taptation Tap tempo control and a Hi / Lo pass filter switch.
Firstly - does anyone know where i can get hold of a taptation chip?
Secondly - i've read that you just put the taptation circuit in place of the time pot, how does this work with the modulation part of the echo base circuit? Does anyone have a schematic of an echo base with a taptation circuit included, without having to loose the modulation part of the echo base circuit?
For the hi / lo pass filter im going to base the circuit on the tone part of a big muff pi, but using a 2P3T switch instead of a pot. Am i right in thinking that the 10K resistor coming off of pin 14 of the PT2399 and the 15n capacitor that follow it and goes to ground are what gives the Echo Base repeats the low pass filter? Therefore, If i remove these 2 components and make them switchable with different values i should be able to alter the tone of the repeats.
Thanks all
EDIT:
Taptation (http://diystompboxes.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=65)
Sorry, weird forum issues.
Read the Taptation PDF regarding pitch mod mod.
To hook the taptation up with the Echo Base's modulation you connect pin Pin 6 of the MCP41100 in the TT to pin 6 of the PT2399 and the collector of the PNP transistor in the EB to pin 7 of the MCP41100. Not sure offhand which of the delay time pots pads on the PCB those are but it should be easy enough to work it out.
You should note that the tap tempo probably won't be accurate when hooked up like this, the transistor adds some resistance even when modulation is turned off, the Taptation doesn't know about this so can't take it into account resulting in longer delay times than expected.
Here's some things you could try to get round this issue, this is taken from a discussion I was having with someone about this recently.
"...Here's a few things you could try to either solve the problem or get round it. First try replacing the 220 Ohm resistor connected to the base of the PNP transistor with a jumper, this might reduce the resistance of the transistor when the depth pot is turned down enough to improve the accuracy, I haven't actually tried this so it might do nothing. The resistor is attached to the wiper of the LFO depth pot, so hopefully it should be easy to find.
If that doesn't work you could wire up the Taptation with the EB modulation and add a switch from pin 7 of the digipot to ground, this would short out the transistor, which would kill the modulation but it would mean you would have accurate Tap tempo when not using the modulation.
Another thing to try would be a pot from Pin 7 of the digi pot to ground, like shown in the taptation document. This would take the transistor completely out of the circuit when turned down, over riding the original depth pot and might even allow small amounts of modulation with out affecting the accuracy too much. Obviously you don't want two separate modulation depth pots so if you try that and it works let me know and I'll tell you how to bypass the original one."
The middle suggestion will definitely work, I don't know about the other two, I haven't heard how he got on with them and I haven't had chance to try them myself.
Your tone control ideas should work, I haven't tried a high pass but that's the right place to experiment.
Good luck with it.
I started making pedals late last year, and I think I am ready to try and tackle this project. I am using sabro's vero layout, but I had a few questions:
1) can I replace the 27k resistor in front of the switch for the feedback mod with a pot so that i can adjust the level of feedback, and if so should I use a audio or log pot and should I use a 25k or 50k pot?
2) I plan on making it true bypass by using a 3pdt bypass circuit between the in and the out (this will serve the same function as the tails off switch), and using a dpdt in the normal spot as an effect on/of switch (this will serve the same function as the tails on switch). My question is, should I put a jumper between tails switch 1&2 or 2&3 on the vero layout so that the tails mod is bypassed with the tails set to "on"? I am not comfortable with my understanding of IC pin outs to do this wiring without seeking the advice of the DIY pedal gurus.
Thanks to everyone who has been contributing to this project, it's going to make me look really cool in front all my musical friends.
Yes you can replace the 27k resistor with a pot or different value resistor, I would try a 100k pot, log or linear doesn't matter. You might want to keep the existing resistor in series with the pot to limit the maximum feedback.
If you jumper Tails 1 and 2 that will hardwire it in tails mode.
Good luck with it.
Thanks for the advice. I'll have to make sure and post some pictures when I am finished with the build.
I was looking over the schematic last night and making a wiring diagram for myself and I got stumped in one spot. I am going to use the LFO wave shape mod and I noticed that on on Taylor's PCB it looks Ike the mod speed pot has lugs 1&2 jumped and on the strip board layout and older layouts it shows lugs 2&3 jumped. I'm sure as long as the pot is hooked up correctly this only effects the direction you move the pot to get a faster or slower rate of oscillation. But just for clarification, more resistance = slower rate of oscillation and less resistance = faster rate? Sorry if I am misusing the terminology.
Quote from: gcollective on January 10, 2013, 01:49:57 PM
But just for clarification, more resistance = slower rate of oscillation and less resistance = faster rate?
Yeah that's correct.
I think you're right, the way the mod speed pot is wired on that layout, fastest will be anti/counter clockwise. The wiper and anticlockwise lugs should be jumpered, so lugs one and and two by his terminology.
anyone running two (or more) footswitches and the vero layout - can you show me a gutshot of your pedal? I am having a hell of a time trying to fit everything into a 1590bb and I feel like it should be easier than this!
thanks!
Here's mine, this is using my vero layout, the Sabrotone layout is a few holes longer so it might not fit the same way.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/20/utyjynyq.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/20/uja5ygy4.jpg)
Is there any reason for using a 4066, and not a 3PDT and 2PDT to get on/off and tails/no tails? You can set it up that way.
Once I'd decided I wanted tails and therefore it wasn't going to be true bypass I decided to use electronic switching, I did toy with the idea of using mechanical switching but I didn't see any particular advantage over electronic. The CD4066 method also allows remote and momentary switching which mechanical switches wouldn't, having said that not many people have made use of those features.
Not sure exactly what switching method you're proposing, if you mean this http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95632.msg829073#msg829073 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95632.msg829073#msg829073) then that still needs part of the CD4066 switching or a transistor switch as well.
If I was going to do another version I'd do it like this http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=90460.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=90460.0) or go with Merlin's method to keep the true bypass fanboys happy.
This kind of thing. Much simplified, I've left all components out except the switching. the bold line shows where the dry/bypass signal goes (with 2 op amps) the rest the switching
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f175/hobkesh/echobase-switching_zps244ebc77.png)
Yeah that would work, from memory that's what I thought about using, except I think I had a DPST for tails/no tails shorting out either the send or return section of the on/off switch.
Somewhere back in this thread someone posted a similar arrangement with a DPDT centre off or maybe a rotary switch for the tails switch that gives a third bypass mode where both the send and return are cut in bypass. The same mode could be added to the existing switching as well.
Thanks for the advice Slacker - I've made the Echo Base and implicated the mods on the pdf.It sounds amazing! I've rigged up the hi / lo pass filter switch too. The lo pass filter sound great - really dark, although the feedback gets a bit carried away - maybe i need a higher value resistor than the 20k i'm using?
The hi pass filter doesn't work at all - infact, it seems to bypass the delay completely and i just get the unaffected guitar.
Here's the schematic of the switch
(http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/cdouch/echobasefilter_zps7e556fd5.jpg)
I haven't hooked up the taptation yet - want to get this bit working first.
Thanks
Try doing the high pass by putting the 22k resistor in series between the 3.9n cap and the switch, I don't think it will work like you have it because the resistor being connected to ground will mess with the bias of the opamps in the PT2399.
Yeah the feedback can be tamed by making the 20k resistor bigger, a lot of people like 100k.
Just had another thought, it might be your values, you've got the frequency set at about 1.8 KHz, with the low pass filtering elsewhere round the PT2399 there won't be much signal left that high.
Try 22n and 10k which gives about 720 Hz.
Does anyone have a drill template for the pedal using PCB mounted pots? Does anyone have a diagram on how to make an fx loop with the EchoBase? I'm fairly new to DIY pedals. Any help would be fantastic. Thanks!
I don't have a drill template but I can tell you how to add an FX loop.
1) You need to break the connection between the middle lug of the Level pot and the 100nF cap.
2) Solder the tip of the Send jack to the middle lug of the Level pot.
3) Solder the switching lug of the Send jack both to the 100nF cap that was previously going to the middle lug of the Level Pot and to the tip of the Return jack
Yeah, that's it. You can do the same thing with the repeats pot, this gives you an FX loop where the first repeat is clean but subsequent ones go through the loop each time they repeat.
Thanks again Slacker - putting it in series in the hi pass worked a treat. I experimented with a few reistor values till i got one that sounded right.
I've wired in the taptation circuit now but am having problems. I bought the pcb from the the below link:
http://www.jmkpcbs.com/JMK_PCBs/Store_files/%20Mini%20Taptation.pdf
I having trouble though - now the delay has just got really slow. The delay pot and tap do nothing. The LED does nothing. I accidentally made a bridge between the 9v input to the board and the pin 6 input. The taptation board started working although there was no delay signal. After releasing the bridge the delay was at the new tempo. I measured the voltage of the voltage regulator (78L05) and it's only giving 2.3v. Should it not be closer to 5v?
I'm really baffled as to what the problem is. Am i right in thinking that the momentary switch for the tap should be open and the beat of the tap is the closing of the switch?
Thanks for all the help.
Quote{Posted by Slacker Reply #299} I'd do it like this. Put the second pot in series with the original one, wired the same way. Then use a SPDT switch and connect the middle lug to where the pots join and the outer lugs to the outside of the pots, like this
Pin6----1---Pot-2--Pot--3-- Numbers are switch lugs
That way the will change between the 2 pot values without any break in the connection.
This has me confused, I have spent a couple of hours wrapping my mind around this and now I am tired. Pardon me if someone has already drawn a diagram or explained this more thoroughly to someone else, there are just so many pages... I have wired it up a couple of ways and from what I read, any break in the connection during switching causes overload and noise, this happens to me when I am switching from short to long feedback(or is it long to short :icon_redface:) Doesnt matter, one of the ways causes noise :icon_lol:. I am struggling with this picture and knowing for sure what "outside of the pots" and "to where the pots join", also is pin 6 connection going to lug one of switch originally went to lug 1 of the pot, or is this a second lead from pin 6? OK time for sleep! :icon_lol: Thanks for your help.
Here's a picture, courtesy of Merlinb, hope it makes sense.
Quote from: merlinb on April 13, 2011, 09:59:05 AMQuote from: kipper_71 on April 13, 2011, 09:00:49 AMMy limited knowledge and the other posts on this thread suggest that the process of switching between the two pots could result in momentary infinite resistance on pin 6 of the PT2399,
Any alternative ideas about how this could be avoided?
Here's one possibility:
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j207/merlinblencowe/EchoBase1.jpg)
That will work! Thank you!
OK, one more question. This schematic is showing pin six going into the side of the pot that also loops into the center lug. The one I built was on the Sabrotone site. And his pin six goes to lug one, and lugs 2,3 are connected instead. So would I simply just wire it up the exact way as the picture except reversing pin 6 and pin 4?(starting from left to right instead of right to left)
ok , I wired it up that way and it still does it, just not as long. so perhaps its correct. The noise I am hearing is a constant white noise for about a second. But now the feedback only repeats once, so I mustve knocked something loose, time to do a little debugging, YES!, Im so excited! :icon_mrgreen: I do love learning electronics! :icon_smile:
Getting around to building an Echobase.
Which of the mods in the PDF (or elsewhere) are worth doing?
QuoteWhich of the mods in the PDF (or elsewhere) are worth doing?
What, don't wanna read through 70 pages of thread? :P
Depends. What music are you going to make with it? Don't know? Then include all of them, none are complicated or expensive.
A 'punch-in' momentary is a MUST. The 'tails' feature is supremely celebrated with a punch-in momentary foot switch, even if you're not Scientist or King Jammy.
I ended up hard wiring a SPDT for the LFO shape, since I wasn't really fiddling with that knob. I usually just crank it to straight up square or triangle.
Dub madness is perfect for noisy/psych/dub/ambient music. You might want to tweak it to flavor - good to breadboard. I imagine it's pretty useless without a momentary foot switch.
I play with Gotoh humbuckers on a homemade strat and haven't felt the need for the diode lift. I'm not Mr. Clean, but I'm not a lo-fi garage punk either. Every once in a while...
Clean kill is great for new wave/noisy/psych kinda stuff, but I only made sense of it with a short delay and heavier modulation. One instance where the shape knob comes in handy, because it has a big effect on this feature.
Probably forgetting something.
Hi!
Some time ago I built the Echo Base with the Rapidriotboxes layout (http://rapidriotboxes.blogspot.com/2010/09/echo-base-digital-delay.html). Some time after that I ordered a tap tempo kit from UK-Electronic (http://uk-electronic.de/onlineshop/product_info.php?products_id=1797&osCsid=72647ebdf9572a193f1364a0f2dc568c) and wired it up according to the schematic provided. By doing so the modulation part went completely silent. My question is that is it safe to wire up the tap tempo kit as the regular potentiometer was according to the Rapidriotboxes layout. My goal is to get both of them to work.
Thanks!
I take it you've removed the delay time pot and connected the brown wire to where lug 3 of the pot was and the blue wire next to the brown one to ground, like how they explain. If you've done that then the modulation part of the Echo Base is completely disconnected so it won't do anything.
It's probably safe to hook the blue wire next to the brown one up to where lugs 1 and 2 of the delay time pot went, this should give tap tempo and modulation. The only way to tell for sure would be with a schematic or if you trace where the brown and blue wires go on the circuit board I can probably tell you.
The other blue wire connected to the time pot and the tap switch still needs to be connected to ground.
The tap tempo probably won't be very accurate if you use it with the modulation.
Welcome to the forum :)
Hi Dongeo,
I'm having a similar problem with a Taptation tap circuit - if the GND of the Taptation goes to ground it shorts the modulation, if it goes to where lugs 1 / 2 of the time pot should be, the delay just got really slow. The delay pot and tap do nothing. The LED does nothing. I accidentally made a bridge between the 9v input to the board and the pin 6 input. The taptation board started working although there was no delay signal. After releasing the bridge the delay was at the new tempo. I measured the voltage of the voltage regulator (78L05) and it's only giving 2.3v.
I'm not sure that anyone else has wired a tap control to an Echo Base yet (i can't find anyone on here that's done it) so not sure if it's even possible - lets hope we can work it out.
Please let me know how Slacker's suggestion works out for you.
The taptation works fine with the Echo Base if you wire it up like this.
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=48889&g2_serialNumber=1)
Ground goes to ground on the Echo Base. Pins 5 and 6 of the digipot go to pin 6 of the PT2399, pin 7 of the digipot goes to where lugs 1/2 of the time pot went. The only problem with this is that the tapped time won't be accurate, the resistance of the transistor used to do the Echo Base modulation throws out the timing. If you want the timing to be accurate then add a switch like shown above, this bypasses the transistor so the taptation will work accurately. Basically you can't have accurate timing and modulation.
You might not need to add the 1k resistor but the taptation datasheet recommends it, to prevent damage to the digipot.
Thanks Slacker,
I've hooked it up like this now but am getting a kind of short delay / ring modulator sound. The tap control and speed control do nothing. The voltage regulator on the taptaion board is only giving me 2v still. Do you recon i have a faulty part?
Yes, if you're only getting 2 Volts out of the regulator it sounds like something is damaged on the taptation board, do you have a link to the board you're using? That might help working out what is wrong.
I assume the Echo Base works if you pot the delay time pot back in and use it without the taptation.
Here's the board, I've bent up the leg of pin 7 of the digi pot to connect it to the Echobase. The Echobase was working perfectly before i added the taptation. I'm wondering if its the digi pot that's buggered. Here's the board I've got from Jacob, a man that seems to know his tatptations well:
http://www.jmkpcbs.com/JMK_PCBs/Store_files/%20Mini%20Taptation.pdf
I've ordered a new 78L05, I'll check it on a bread board first to make sure it's working okay.
Thanks for all the help, i really appreciate it.
PS. The Echo Base has to be the best sounding delay ever!
Does anyone have a drilling guide for the musicpcb PCB? 8)
Quote from: Kesh on January 20, 2013, 12:27:55 PM
This kind of thing. Much simplified, I've left all components out except the switching. the bold line shows where the dry/bypass signal goes (with 2 op amps) the rest the switching
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f175/hobkesh/echobase-switching_zps244ebc77.png)
Thanks Kesh,
That's what I was looking for! :icon_biggrin:
Regards
Ad
Hey everyone,
I had a working echo base a few months ago that didn't quite fit into the box I drilled :icon_evil: so I removed the circuit and it sat on my bench untouched.
I just rewired all the off-board components and am getting ready to rehouse it. it works - that is, the controls all do what they are supposed to, and there are delays. but the delays are massively distorted, and it goes into wild uncontrollable oscillation with only a slight turn of the feedback knob.
i've looked at the mods to reduce distortion - taking out diodes, reducing resistors - but I don't believe this to be the problem. There was nowhere near this much distortion when I had it working a few months ago. I'm also using the neck pickup of my tele here, there is no reason anything should be clipping. I feel like it has got to be related to the feedback problem. I have a trimpot in place of the 20k resistor off the feedback control, and even with it turned all the way to 100k, the thing oscillates like crazy.
Any thoughts? Voltage looks good at the pt2399....I'm guessing a must have a short somewhere but I don't see it. Any ideas would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
update: an audio probe shows clean signal through the input buffer (obvious since my dry signal sounds fine) and then a dirty signal coming out of the 4066...i'm not sure I'm tracing it right though. into pin 1 sounds fine, out of pin 2 sounds distorted. bad chip?
If you've used a socket you can do a quick check to see if it's the 4066. Remove the 4066 and jumper pin 1 to pin 2 and pin 10 to pin 11 on the socket, this puts the effect in the on position. If you then get no distortion the problem is around the 4066, voltages on all the pins in both bypass modes and effect on would be useful.
This is info for Mr Gambit07, tried to reply to your PM but it says your inbox is full. Thought I'd put his here in case you check out the forum.
As far as I know no one has made a DIY PCB layout for the latest version, the only PCB is the musicpcb one which you have to buy http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay/ (http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay/).
There is a vero layout with all the mods http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/EchoBase.gif (http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/EchoBase.gif)
There is a PCB layout for the first version here http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171).
If you have the skills you could probably modify this into the latest version, it is mostly changes around the top right hand TL072.
Here's an idea you could possibly use a 555 timer and a relay to switch to full by pass once the delay signal had totally faded.
just a passing thought.
Hi there.
I'm having a hard time visualising the off board wiring for the echo base. is it possible to have both dc input with 9v battery? and does the pedal 'turn on' when the guitar is plugged in, with a stereo trs socket (like a conventional true bypass pedal)?
How would I go about achieving these two things?
EDIT: another question. How does it turn on and off? It looks like the bypass switch just controls the 4066, and power is always connected.
If you want a battery then use a stereo input jack connecting the battery and DC jack exactly the same as you would for a true bypass pedal. This will turn off the battery when you remove the input jack, same as a true bypass pedal.
Yes, the bypass just cuts off the delayed sound, the dry sound still passes through the pedal, that's the only way to get delay tails. True bypass pedals don't remove power when bypassed either, they just remove the circuit from the signal path.
Thanks slacker, you're a gentleman.
Quote from: Michael Allen on November 24, 2007, 06:02:37 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v368/soma_hero/echo_basecopy.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v368/soma_hero/echo_base_lay.jpg)
Sorry if we've been over this, but has this layout been verified? Also, does anyone know what size the sides should be scaled to?
Thanks for any help!
Sorry I don't know if that one is verified, this one is http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171)
Hi all,
I still can't get the taptation to work with the Echo Base. I've replaces the voltage regulator and the MCP41100 but still no cigar. I checked the new 78L05 on a breadboard before installing - got 5.1v from the output. However, when i measure the output voltage when its installed i only get 1.72v - this is obviously why it's not working correctly. I can only assume that there's too much resistance coming from somewhere - i've triple checked all the resistor and capacitor values and all seems right. It work fine as a normal Echo Base when i just have a normal pot on instead of the tap circuit. I'm completely baffled. I would be eternally grateful if anyone has any suggestions as to what the problem is - here're some photos.
http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/cdouch/photo3_zps4e32ea5e.jpg
http://i1294.photobucket.com/albums/b605/cdouch/photo1_zpsbf52fb93.jpg
Thanks
Does the taptation work on its own?
I don't think so, when i take it off of the taptation circuit form the Echo Base board i only get 0.78v at the output of the voltage regulator. Although i'm using a 78L05 as stipulated, when tested on the breadboard, mine seems to have the input and output round the other way to how its depicted on the taptation board. I've tried it both ways round. One way i get nothing, the other i get the aforementioned values. Would it be worth trying a L7805 instead?
I would remove both the chips from the taptation board and see if you then get 5 Volts from the regulator, if you do put the chips back in one at a time and see which one causes the voltage to drop, that chip is possibly damaged.
I can't tell from the photo or the documentation which way round the 78l05 is supposed to go, using the continuity tester on your meter or by following the traces you should be to tell which pad is connected to the +9 pad, which one is it? If it's the top one then, unless you have some strange 78l05, the marking on the board is correct the rounded side faces the edge of the board.
I've tried it with both chips out and it gives me 0.78v on the output, it only goes up to 1.72v when connected to the Echobase. The Input (the top pad) is giving 9.3v. I have the rounded edge facing into the board as that was the way it seemed to work on the breadboard. Surely if its the wrong way round then there'd be 0 volage at the output pad? I've also just realised that there is only 116ohs resistance between the Input (9v) and the ground both with the chips in and out - connected and unconnected to the Echo Base. This makes me think that maybe there's a short somewhere? I'v looked over the board with a magnifying glass and can't see any solder bridges. What do you think?
Quote from: slacker on April 24, 2013, 01:33:49 PM
This is info for Mr Gambit07, tried to reply to your PM but it says your inbox is full. Thought I'd put his here in case you check out the forum.
As far as I know no one has made a DIY PCB layout for the latest version, the only PCB is the musicpcb one which you have to buy http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay/ (http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay/).
There is a vero layout with all the mods http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/EchoBase.gif (http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/EchoBase.gif)
There is a PCB layout for the first version here http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171).
If you have the skills you could probably modify this into the latest version, it is mostly changes around the top right hand TL072.
geez, thanks! didn't know my inbox was full... thanks again for the reply!
It works!!!! It turned out i'd replaced a faulty 78L05 with another faulty 78L05. Instead i used a L7805 and it worked. Controls are:
Level
Feedback
Speed
LFO Rate
LFO Depth
LFO Shape
Hi / Lo pass filter switch
LFO on / off
Clean kill
Diodes on / off
Tails on / off
Bypass
Tap control
All crammed into 1590XX enclosure.
Thanks for all the help, it sounds awesome.
Slacker - thanks for an incredible pedal!
Excellent good to hear you fixed it, that's bad luck having two faulty components.
can we compile this thread and put it on a pdf. covering the basic build upto the mods? :D
Quote from: jan007magic on August 17, 2013, 03:13:19 AM
can we compile this thread and put it on a pdf. covering the basic build upto the mods? :D
Me too!!!! someone else????
Quote from: jan007magic on August 17, 2013, 03:13:19 AM
can we compile this thread and put it on a pdf. covering the basic build upto the mods? :D
Yeah go for it :)
How would I add a modulation LED?
Would I use the top of the Depth pot (lug 3) as a point for the LED?
nevermind :P
Quotecan we compile this thread and put it on a pdf. covering the basic build up to the mods?
Great idea, I volunteer jan007magic.
I am wondering what the final resolution is of using Tapation tap tempo with the Echo Base.
From what I am finding, it seems that to make the tap tempo steady (and match what was tapped) I would need to completely remove the echo base modulation (and use taptation's). Has anyone been able to get Taptation to work with Echo Base "and" have the tap tempo match what was tapped?
I have built three taptation boards, one with a Rebote 2.5 that sounds great, one with a Deep Blue Delay clone that also sounds great (I like how the high end rolls off each repeat), this third board was destined to go into the echo base, but now I am thinking it isn't really worth it since I wind up with a useless speed knob.
Thoughts, insights?
- Thanks
It's not possible to keep the modulation and have the standard accuracy, according to Slacker. (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diystompboxes.com%2Fsmfforum%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D60662.1340&ei=yTEpUtejHaL4yQGw-YCYCA&usg=AFQjCNGAVfuThFJiY4cuoq5nSRAeqqdjag&sig2=XFC6RPfMqjRC2QFYxzoREQ)
Maybe try messing with vref on pin 2 à la Frequency Central and the Little Angel chorus (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=86297.0).
I just built two of these. The first worked fine. The second passes the dry signal but, has no delay. I get reasonable voltages at all of the chips. I can trace the input signal up to the 470p cap on the upper right of the PT2399. I don't get any signal at pin 16 of the PT2399.
If anyone has any suggestions on what to check next let me know.
I have tried to debug this one for a while now and made some progress, but still no success. I have used the layout from Sabrotone, but with the wavemod, and measured everything and compared to Slackers voltage reading on page 4. This shows that everything seems to be correct except for the 4066 chip, from which I get the following readings:
1. 4,6
2. 4,6
3. 4
4. 0
5. 4,3
6. 0,4 on 4,07 off
7. 0
8.
9. 3,2
10. 0
11. 0
12. 0
13. 9,0
14. 9,2
I have clean signal going through in both bypass and effect mode, but the dry switch kills the signal. The feedback switch works as well.
Some of them are correct according to page, but some of them are pretty wrong I think. I have checked for solderbridges and incorrect parts and values without success, and of course put in new IC's. Does anyone have any ideas on this? Any help is greatly appreciated!
The Sabrotone layout uses different pins of the CD4066 than my schematic, you should get the following voltages.
4066
Some of the voltages change depending on if the effect is on or bypassed (off) so I've shown the voltages for the different states.
1. 4.6v
2. 4.6v
3. 4.6v
4. 4.6v
5. 8.5 On
6. 0.45v off 4.5v on
7. 0
8. 9v
9. 3v on 0.32 off
10. 0
11. 0
12. 0
13. 8.5 On
14. 9
When the effect is off depending on which position the tails/Boss switch is in either pin 5 or 13 will be 1.25v the other will be about 8.7 volts.
It looks like you have a problem round pin 4, this will probably stop the signal getting to the PT2399 which is why you hear no delay.
Quote from: soggybag on September 08, 2013, 12:23:23 PM
I just built two of these. The first worked fine. The second passes the dry signal but, has no delay. I get reasonable voltages at all of the chips. I can trace the input signal up to the 470p cap on the upper right of the PT2399. I don't get any signal at pin 16 of the PT2399.
If anyone has any suggestions on what to check next let me know.
Do you get any signal on pin 15? If not I would check all your solder joints in that area of the board, it seems odd that you have signal on the 470p cap but not the pins of the PT2399 as it is connected to them.
Quote from: slacker on September 16, 2013, 02:13:08 PM
Quote from: soggybag on September 08, 2013, 12:23:23 PM
I just built two of these. The first worked fine. The second passes the dry signal but, has no delay. I get reasonable voltages at all of the chips. I can trace the input signal up to the 470p cap on the upper right of the PT2399. I don't get any signal at pin 16 of the PT2399.
If anyone has any suggestions on what to check next let me know.
Do you get any signal on pin 15? If not I would check all your solder joints in that area of the board, it seems odd that you have signal on the 470p cap but not the pins of the PT2399 as it is connected to them.
Thanks for the reply. I'll check tonight when I get home.
Quote from: slacker on September 16, 2013, 02:13:08 PM
Quote from: soggybag on September 08, 2013, 12:23:23 PM
I just built two of these. The first worked fine. The second passes the dry signal but, has no delay. I get reasonable voltages at all of the chips. I can trace the input signal up to the 470p cap on the upper right of the PT2399. I don't get any signal at pin 16 of the PT2399.
If anyone has any suggestions on what to check next let me know.
Do you get any signal on pin 15? If not I would check all your solder joints in that area of the board, it seems odd that you have signal on the 470p cap but not the pins of the PT2399 as it is connected to them.
After checking again with the audio probe, I definitely get sound at pin 15 of the PT2399, no sound at pin 16.
Your problem is somewhere later on then, it's normal to get very little or no signal on pin 16, if you have signal on pin 15 then signal is getting to the PT2399. Do you get delayed signal on pins 12 and 14? If you do trace the signal through pins 10 and 11 of the CD4066 and the wiper of the level pot, hopefully this will show where the problem is.
If you don't get signal on pin 14 the problem is somewhere around the PT2399.
Now it's working! Many thanks Slacker, you where right about pin 4 because after I took a better look at that area, probably for the tenth time, I found a missing cut in the vero... :icon_redface:
It sounds awesome! I have some noise issues though, but I think I've read about something similar earlier in the thread so I think I can sort it out. Thanks again!
Quote from: slacker on September 17, 2013, 12:37:36 PM
Your problem is somewhere later on then, it's normal to get very little or no signal on pin 16, if you have signal on pin 15 then signal is getting to the PT2399. Do you get delayed signal on pins 12 and 14? If you do trace the signal through pins 10 and 11 of the CD4066 and the wiper of the level pot, hopefully this will show where the problem is.
If you don't get signal on pin 14 the problem is somewhere around the PT2399.
I'm definitely not getting sound at pin 14, 10, or 12, only pin 15 has sound when I check with the audio probe. I'll check all of the parts in that neighborhood.
Thanks again for the help!
After a second inspection, the audio probe reveals audio at pins 15 and 9 of the PT2399. I'm getting audio at the output of the effect, but no echo.
If understand correctly, audio should go in at pin 15 and come out with echo at pin 14. In between the signal should run through the two built op-amps at pins 9 and 11.
I made the mistake of not using a socket. It's really difficult to get the chip out of there to determine if it is the problem.
ok - help please with the bypass switch
i'm trying to orient it correctly on my enclosure
:)
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171)
if the bypass switch is open (that is, the base of the 2n5089 is NOT grounded), the pedal is off
correct?
thanks
Yes that's right.
I have ran into some weird noise issue that seems to be related to the power supply in some way, but I cant figure out whats wrong. The pedal gives a noisy, compressed fuzz the first 10-20 second when it's first plugged in and I strum relatively hard, but then it disappears and the pedal sounds great and all controls seems to work as they should. When I try and disconnect the power and the start over, the same issue appears. It obviously seems to be related to the power, but I dont know where or for what I should look for errors. I have replaced all IC's and transistors at least two times without success. Any ideas on this? It super annoying to be this close to have it working properly... :-\
Anyone?
Sounds odd, have you tried a different power supply? Is it the only pedal you're running off the supply? What mods, if any, have you done?
Yeah, I think its pretty weird since everything works fine when the noise disappears. I have done the waveshape mod which works fine, but I haven't tried another power supply since I don't have any at hand, but I have thought of that as well. I will try a different amp and supply as soon as I get the chance.
If it only does this when you first power it up it is probably just the capacitors for the +9 and +5 and Vref charging up, and nothing to worry about. Until these are charged the opamps won't be biased properly and so won't work correctly which could cause fuzz.
Ok, that makes sense, thanks! So this is something I'll have to live with? Guess the problem will remain even if I replace the caps, or could that help?
Argh!
After testing everything backwards and forwards, I decided to desolder the PT2399 and put in a socket. I put in a new PT2399 and, it started working but, the echoes were distorted. I tested another PT2399 and it sounded fine. I think the first two chips were bad. Not sure where I bought these, maybe futurelec, I can't be sure, I bought them more than a year a ago. I had read people saying that not all PT2399 chips were created equal.
Note to self, in future always use a socket PT2399!
Thanks again for all the help.
Measuring pins 9-16 on the PT2399, I was getting weird numbers, like 3.8V and 4.56V. These pins should all be 2.5V. The only thing that I could think of that would throw these off is if the internal bias was not right. Each of the pairs 9-10, 11-12, 13-14, and 15-16 represent the output and non-inverting input of an internal op-amp. The inverting input to each of these op-amps should be biased at half the supply voltage, and so the output should settle at the vref for the chip.
As a test I disconnected the power and measured the resistance between each pair of pins: 9 and 10, 11 and 12, 13 and 14, and 15 and 16. I compared the resistance on both the working version and the non-working. The resistance was the same on both. So the surrounding parts should have been correct.
In the end the only thing I could think of was that the internal vref was off.
Hi, i'm trying to build this project.. At the moment the effect doesn't work, i listen only modulation effect but no delay, also feedback control doesn't work. With audio probe signal stop at C16, is it normal or that's a problem here? I tried to change capacitor yet. Maybe Diodes?
Thank you
EDIT: Offset voltage are ok for PT2399 and LFO, not sure about 4066, U3 have 2,5 V on pin 5 instead 5V, a problem on Vref too?
Alo, quite a noob here. Built this circuit using two different layouts (Anonfaceless' and Dimebugg's, bad idea, I know, I just thought maybe it would spare me from the debugging process) and I get dry signal on both; I did try replacing the 2399 but I guess there's still the chance they're faulty since I got both of them from the same store (I also have a few other ones which I don't really trust at all).
Either way, before looking for another 2399 replacement, or posting pics and voltage readings, I wanted to know how to wire it without potentiometers so as to leave it in a functional state and make sure the problem isn't the pots (I made two different boards but used the same pots). Also, could this be caused by diodes not pointing the correct way? I'm pretty sure I placed them correctly but still feel the urge to ask
By the way, I also have two question about Dimebugg's layout:
Is it ok if I just leave out the 1N4741?
I'm not sure I understand the bypass and tails switches wiring in the PDF, could someone explain it to me wire by wire?
First of all, welcome to the forum!
READ THIS (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=29816.0) if you want a response that helps you more.
Quotespare me from the debugging process
Ha! Yeah right. And yes, it is definitely a bad idea, dumb idea even. ;)
If all you get is dry it could be a problem with the 4066 and related soldering. Or a number of other things.
QuoteI wanted to know how to wire it without potentiometers so as to leave it in a functional state and make sure the problem isn't the pots
More work than it's worth. Turn power to the pedal off and check the resistances between the pots' terminals. Then double check your wiring. It's not any less complicated to wire up (and debug) static resistors. Unless a bunch of solder leaked into the pot, they're probably just fine. There might be an issue with the 'level' pot. It could potentially be mis-wired in a way that would prevent any processed signal (delay) and that's why you only get dry.
QuoteAlso, could this be caused by diodes not pointing the correct way?
Are you talking about the 1N4148s? As long as one "points" the opposite direction of the other, you're all good.
QuoteBy the way, I also have two question about Dimebugg's layout:
Then share a link to the layout.
QuoteIs it ok if I just leave out the 1N4741?
Why would it be ok?
QuoteI'm not sure I understand the bypass and tails switches wiring in the PDF, could someone explain it to me wire by wire?
Why not ask Dimebugg?
That's asking a lot from total strangers online when you don't go through the work of proper debugging, or use the forum's guidelines for posting about debugging, or providing any pictures of your wiring, or providing a link to the layout, etc.
Quote from: garcho on October 15, 2013, 12:39:07 PM
That's asking a lot from total strangers online when you don't go through the work of proper debugging, or use the forum's guidelines for posting about debugging, or providing any pictures of your wiring, or providing a link to the layout, etc.
Thanks for your reply, Garcho!
I actually breadboarded Dimebugg's layout using static resistors and I can affirm it works perfectly fine now, it seems some of the pots I've been using are faulty (or maybe I overheated them?).
Either way, I thought it'd be logic to assume the same solution would apply to Anonymous Faceless Coward's PCB since I was having the same problem, but nope, I breadboarded the whole wiring and I'm still getting a dry signal, I'm guessing it could be a problem with the 4066, since it seems to be the only substantial difference between this and Dimebugg's layout, I used two different 4066s (pretty sure they're from different manufacturers, too), and also tried a 4016 like they mentioned in some part of the thread, but neither of these seemed to change anything. Another difference is for this one I used a polarized electrolitic cap where it asks for a 1uf non-polarized cap, but I think I've read somewhere in the thread this should be fine?
Here's the layout I'm using:
http://img5.blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ybi/1/78/55/anonymousfacelesscoward/folder/903906/img_903906_23693577_0?1211991255
Here are some pics of the PCB:
http://i.imgur.com/v9DMK9nh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/fTCYFa9h.jpg (sorry about the hair)
And lastly, here are my -pretty odd- voltage readings:
2399
1. 5
2. 2.5
3. 0
4. 0
5. 5
6. 4.1
7. 0
8. 4.1
9. 0.6
10. 4.3
11 to 16. 2.5
4066
1. 2.9
2. 2.9
3. 0
4. 0
5. 0
6. 0.12 off 0.8 on
7. 0
8. 9.2
9. 0 off 9.2 on
10. 2.9
11. 3
12. 7.6
13. 8.8
14. 9.3
TL072 (i'm not sure which is U3 and which is U1)
1. 5
2. 5
3. 5
4. 0.7
5. 4.7
6. 5
7. 5
8. 8.6
1. 5
2. 2.6
3. 5
4. 0
5. 5
6. 5
7. 5
8. 9.3
5089
E. 0
B. 0.61 off 0 on
C. 1.4 off 8.8 on
It'd be greatly appreciated if someone could tell me which track should I trace or some idea of where to look since I really have no idea what could be giving me these values; the 7805 seems to work just fine, it's getting 9v and outputting 5v
Hey,
So I decided to build this pedal and I can say that I succeded and on the first run aswell... right after assembly... no problems to date...
I took the ver 2 schematic and made my own layout... this one is with SMD components... someone few pages back said it would be nice to see one so here it is :)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9dnfga10xeww3sb/IMG_0355.JPG (https://www.dropbox.com/s/9dnfga10xeww3sb/IMG_0355.JPG)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hfdvgt7k4ypqkl4/IMG_0356.JPG (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hfdvgt7k4ypqkl4/IMG_0356.JPG)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bxbm84c2oye2zap/IMG_0357.JPG (https://www.dropbox.com/s/bxbm84c2oye2zap/IMG_0357.JPG)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/u0ll832p2kwhk8p/IMG_0361.JPG (https://www.dropbox.com/s/u0ll832p2kwhk8p/IMG_0361.JPG)
Thank you guys for you contribution and thank you for making this public...
Wow that looks amazing nice work. I like the unusual layout.
Thanks! Unusual in what way, if I may ask?
My idea was to group all the functional blocks and put them together, since i did it double sided I had plenty of room to do that, nevertheless some components had to be put further apart than other since i wanted everything pcb mounted minus the leds and a switch... the pots take the majority of space.
I added a dual color led for the boss tails switch and on the bottom layer there are some zero resistors so I may swap the dc jack's tip and sleeve since some adapters have sleeve positive and tip negative and vice versa, just in case... another technique would be to add a rectifier bridge, but then you would have to accommodate the voltage drop (about 1.4V) and probably would need a supply that is 10.5-11 volts and that would be maybe not so readily available, but then again 12V PSU - diode bridge - linear voltage regulator or LDO for 9 volts would also do the trick, probably I wouldn't ever need it anyway since I know what kind of plug i need but there are plenty of dumbusers out there that just expect everything to be plug and play.
Hey All,
I hope this is the right place to post for questions. I've just built the echo base and everything seems fine except that the dubmadness mod is not working as it should. I purchased the board from music pcb and followed the instructions provided in the manual. What happens is that when the toggle is on I get heaps of feedback as expected, but when it's off, the feedback pot is not working at all and I only get one slap-back. When I remove the dubmadness mod the feedback pot works just fine.
Any ideas on where to start?
Thanks.
Hello everybody
It's my first reply here.
I built 1st version of echo-base according to anonymousfacelesscoward http://chawk.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf , but got a problem.
Board is self-etched. Everything was soldered very carefully. Jumpers in their places.
I used 1,6M instead of 1,5M, 40k(39k), 46k(47k), 1N4007(1N4001) and BC558(2N5089- i know i used PNP, my mistake, but before i had BC547 and i had same problem, however 4066 switches properly). Whole rest is same as in the schematic. 4066 bypass is working, 2399 is also working(100% sure, I had it in my rebote 2,5),
connections between pots and switches are OK(checked extra by measuring instrument). Got checked voltages with slacker's one's. I have only slight changes in few points.
PT2399
1. 5v
2. 2.5v
3. 0
4. 0
5. 2.89v [3,09V]
6. 2.5v
7. 0.5v [0,67V]
8. 0.5 v [0,68V]
9 - 16 all 2.5v
4066
1. 4.6v
2. 4.6v
3. 0.4v [0,7V]
4. 0.4v [0,7V]
5. 0
6. 0.45v off 4.5v on [0,4V off/ 4,35V on]
7. 0
8. 9v
9. 3v on 0.32 off [1,81V on/ 0,4V off]
10. 4.6v
11. 4.6v
12. 8.5 on [8,7V]
13. 8.5 on [8,9V]
14. 9
U3 - all good
1. 5v 2. 5v 3. 5v 4. 0 5. 5v 6. 5v 7. 5v 8. 9v
U1
1. changes
2. 5v
3. 5v
4. 0.8v [ changes between 0,7~0,8V]
5. changes
6. 5v
7. changes
8. 8v
BC560 on/off
E. 0V
B. 4~5V
C. 1,14V
2N5089(BC558)
E.0 V
B.9V 0V off
C.9V
I've looked over 70pages of this thread but I didn't find exact problem.
The problem:
The signal is very quiet and noisy. I have to turn up my amp to 50% of power to hear sounds.
I get only 1 repeat and its distored(humbuckers pickups, I could take out diodes but i want this thing to run first)
When i had my audio probe connected I could hear LFO working. The signal in the input(U3) was much quieter than in the output.
When I took tl072 from my rebote out, the sound with repeats was the same as in echo-base, quiet, noisy and distored
So i come to conclusion, something makes U3 opamp not working properly so my echo-base runs without a buffer, like rebote 2,5 without opamp. Maybe there are too much 2M2 resistors in the input(before pin 2 and between 2 and 1)
Any ideas how to debug this thing, gents?
I have been searching the forum but could not find what i need.
Is there an easy way to add an expression control to the echobase modulation speed that can be used with regular expression pedals?
Most expression pedal use a 10k pot and the speed contol is 1M.
Thanks.
Quote from: Marcvv on January 04, 2014, 05:18:10 AM
I have been searching the forum but could not find what i need.
Is there an easy way to add an expression control to the echobase modulation speed that can be used with regular expression pedals?
Most expression pedal use a 10k pot and the speed contol is 1M.
Thanks.
I would first try to use a LDR in place of the modulation speed pot: You could then use the expression pedal to control the brightness of an LED rigged up facing the LDR and control the speed this way: I have used the light/dark section (2N3904 + two LEDs) from Rob Deadastronaut's lightwah schematic with a Roland EV-5 expression pedal in place of the sensitivity pot and it works well in similar contexts: I'd put a small resistor from + to 9v the expression pedal lug3 to reduce the chance of accidentally frying the expression pot.
Quote from: nocentelli on January 04, 2014, 05:35:22 AM
Quote from: Marcvv on January 04, 2014, 05:18:10 AM
I have been searching the forum but could not find what i need.
Is there an easy way to add an expression control to the echobase modulation speed that can be used with regular expression pedals?
Most expression pedal use a 10k pot and the speed contol is 1M.
Thanks.
I would first try to use a LDR in place of the modulation speed pot: You could then use the expression pedal to control the brightness of an LED rigged up facing the LDR and control the speed this way: I have used the light/dark section (2N3904 + two LEDs) from Rob Deadastronaut's lightwah schematic with a Roland EV-5 expression pedal in place of the sensitivity pot and it works well in similar contexts: I'd put a small resistor from + to 9v the expression pedal lug3 to reduce the chance of accidentally frying the expression pot.
Thanks for the suggestion and sorry for replying late. Seems like I need to do some tweaking. I hoped someone had already found out how to do it. I will try your suggestions.
Is there a vero layout available for the "extra delay time" mod involving the second PT2399 chip? I would like to know how to incorporate this mod into the PCB for the Echo Base from MusicPCB, or if that's even possible.
I've never seen a vero for it, I think Yorick was the only person who ever built it. No reason it can't be done to the musicpcb version, you just need to find the right places to connect it, might need some traces cutting which might be tricky.
Well, I am game for giving it a try. I ordered two boards so if I mess one up I can figure out how to correct the mistakes.
I have a question about the mod, though. In the picture on your gallery, I can't tell if two wires are supposed to be electrically connected, or if they just intersect on the schematic but aren't supposed to actually connect. here's the pic, and I have circled the confusing area in red and highlighted it with an arrow:
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m533/mordechaibenzev/EchoBaseextradelaymod_zps6394035c.png)
I'd really appreciate some clarification if possible. Thanks!
They are not connected
Thanks...one more question about a mod. I am implementing the waveshape pot mod, and I am not sure about where a connection is supposed to go. I am talking about the wire leading to the 10-50K resistor...since the mod breaks the simple connection between Pin 1 of U1A and the 240K resistor, I don't know if the 10-50K resistor wire now connects to Pin 1 of U1A or to the 240K resistor. At the moment I have it going to the 240K as such:
(http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m533/mordechaibenzev/Waveshapemod_zpsf503e12c.png)
But do I have that right, or should it be connected to Pin 1 of the op amp?
Bump...
Any help on this? Should that 10-50k LED be connected to pin 1 of the op amp and NOT to the 240K resistor?
The resistor stays connected to pin 1. Having said that It might actually work like you've shown and would give an indication of the waveshape.
I'll give it a try both ways and report back. I wonder if the effect of the waveshape control would change somehow depending on where that resistor is connected...?
has anybody idea how solve my problem?
Hi sorry for not spotting this earlier. First a stupid question have you put the opamps in the right way? They're both upside down so pin 1 is at the bottom, if you've put them in the wrong way they're probably dead and will need replacing.
If they're in correctly, then we need to figure out where the problem is, if you probe on pin 1 of the opamp in the top right corner, is the signal there the same volume as the input or is it already noisy and quiet?
No problem, thanks for reply anyway.
Meanwhile, I managed to redo buffer section from version 2 http://jonandtina.net/static/images/echobaserev2-changes.png
I took 47n out and cable going to wiper and connected new pcb i made for that buffer(I wanted to save big one from cuts)
The op-amp was and is oriented in a good way. I also bought few new opamps more and all of them work. However effect is still the same - no repeats, distorion, no modulation, quiet signal.
I guess, by pin 1 You mean pin 5 now, so INput of buffer. When I probe the INput I get quiet signal in comparison to pin 1, or 2(OUTput of the buffer)
Bypass system works(with LED) and tails mod also works. I can hear quiet distored oscilation. Level, time and feedback pots are affecting that noise also.
It still looks like the buffer doesn't send enough signal through pt2399 to make it sound properly - thats my only feeling
The difference between version1 buffer and version2 buffer for me is, that
in v1 there was one louder repeat than dry signal everytime when I produced sound from probe, while
in v2 i have no repeats, but only noise and still quiet dry signal.
If you turn the level all way down so there's no delayed signal does the clean signal sound Ok, it should should exactly the same as going straight from guitar to amp? If it sounds Ok, I would trace through the circuit from the input towards the PT2399 and see where it starts to get distorted and quiet.
Now I tested this circuit with my guitar... and shock. I didn't check that before(only with my probe) but now the buffer works ::). Like You said, lvl turned down and I get clean signal like with guitar and amp only.
Bypass and tails still OK. Problem begins with repeats now. They get a little noise, first repeat is as loud as I set it via lvl pot, but rest of repeats are quieter or dissapear. I can get repeat louder than dry signal, which is also good for this circuit.
Still no modulation and sometimes the signal becomes oscilated and distored in one. The time pot works only half range - from long repeat to medium(I don't know if that is default property)
I'm not sure how I can get sure if circuit is good in some points with my probe, if it wasn't telling me truth about the buffer.
EDIT: I have touched this effect in few places and I found a way to make repeats in proper sound level and somehow for a while the modulation worked.
I'm going to check cables once again.
Hello everybody,
I built the echo base with the layout of Sabrotone.
At first it worked ok, but then when I switched it off and/or on again, there was only a distorted signal.
I started debugging but could'nt find anything wrong. With the level ccw, the result was the same, so I figured it was in the buffer. I replaced The TL072 . No result.
I got me a usb oscilloscope and discovered that when this distorted sound came, the output opamp was oscillating at approx. 533KHz. When I removed the output cable, all was quiet. I tried different resistors and caps but no improvement. I think the combination of cable and amplifier input made up a tuned circuit.
At last I replaced the TL072 for a NE5532 and yes, now it works fine!
Mayby if anyone has the same problem, this is useful.
Best regards
Ad
I finally sorted out this effect. Everything was about crappy cables(and buffer). Got few mods more: lfo kill switch, 2,2u pop cap, and changed 20k feedback resistor to 180k variable one.
Btw, one more question. Should "mod depth" pot affect "time" pot?
When my modulation is off and I turn down mod depth pot I can get slapback echo, but when I start turning it back slowly the time between repeats comes longer and there's no slapback.
Is that normal?
However its nice project. I love this effect :icon_mrgreen:
Here is how my pcb looks.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/34/t9y9.jpg)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/34/rbc4.jpg)
Quote from: bluescage on January 19, 2014, 04:56:49 AM
I got me a usb oscilloscope and discovered that when this distorted sound came, the output opamp was oscillating at approx. 533KHz.
Interesting information, I don't think I heard of that problem before, thanks for sharing. With the TL072 you might be able to stop it oscillating by putting a 100 Ohm or similar sized resistor in series with the output. That might stop it by isolating the output of the opamp from the cable capacitance.
Quote from: Mario44 on January 19, 2014, 12:53:36 PM
However its nice project. I love this effect :icon_mrgreen:
Thanks. Yes that is a known problem with the mod depth pot, it does the same thing when modulation is on but it's probably harder to tell. You can fix this by adding a 10uF Electrolytic cap between the 240k resistor and lug 3 of the mod depth pot. The positive end of the cap goes towards the resistor. There might still be a bit of an effect turning the pot but it's a lot less.
Quote from: slacker on January 19, 2014, 01:30:37 PM
Quote from: bluescage on January 19, 2014, 04:56:49 AM
I got me a usb oscilloscope and discovered that when this distorted sound came, the output opamp was oscillating at approx. 533KHz.
Interesting information, I don't think I heard of that problem before, thanks for sharing. With the TL072 you might be able to stop it oscillating by putting a 100 Ohm or similar sized resistor in series with the output. That might stop it by isolating the output of the opamp from the cable capacitance.
Thanks Ian, I will try this and report back.
Thank you for your projects and your effort to answer all questions!
Ad
Yes.
The 100 ohms did the trick, The TL072 is tamed! ;)
Thank you Ian for the tip!
Ad
Quote from: slacker on January 19, 2014, 01:37:01 PM
Quote from: Mario44 on January 19, 2014, 12:53:36 PM
However its nice project. I love this effect :icon_mrgreen:
Thanks. Yes that is a known problem with the mod depth pot, it does the same thing when modulation is on but it's probably harder to tell. You can fix this by adding a 10uF Electrolytic cap between the 240k resistor and lug 3 of the mod depth pot. The positive end of the cap goes towards the resistor. There might still be a bit of an effect turning the pot but it's a lot less.
Well, You couldn't see on these photos, but I had that 10u mounted on the reverse side of my fancy "panel" ;D
but instead of fixing, it made only dry signal going through the circuit, so no modulation and no delay. It was like You said, positive to 240k and negative to pot lug.
However, it's good for me.
Echo base builders: at very slow LFO speeds, is the modulation smooth? I'm working on a similar (and verified, I guess ) build, and the LFO is very square at the low speeds, where a triangle or sine would sound so much smoother. Thanks
The LFO output is triangular at all speeds, and the modulatation is smooth.
In what you're building is the problem with the LFO output or with what it controls?
Just looking at the LFO by itself. Goes down to .3Hz, but it is .6vp-p. up at 4Hz and above it is 1.6vp-p. starts to triangle there. The Magnus Modulus LFO, and the Jenny Greenteeth LFO. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57831278/JennyGreenteethBuildDoc.pdf (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/57831278/JennyGreenteethBuildDoc.pdf)
Update: I am wrong. The waveform at .3 hz is fine. I had my scope on AC coupling, and low frequencies like that confuse the scope. DC coupling reveals a perfect amplitude and triangle.
Yeah that's what I'd expect the waveform should be pretty consistant over the whole range. Your problem sounds like it is somewhere after the LFO. I'll take a look at your other post
Slacker/Ian, I've finished building an Echo Base over the past few days and just want to add my voice to the chorus of praise for this project, it really does sound amazing. And all your contributions to this thread over the past seven(!) years answered pretty much every question I came up with whilst debugging it.
To be honest, the whole build probably took longer than needed, because every time I went to test the pedal I couldn't help but noodle around for another 30 minutes :) In fact, when the board was first done, I had no output signal at all - even the clean part was being killed - and the modulation wasn't working. But I found the delayed output from the PT2399 with the audio probe, and had 15 minutes of fun just playing with that :) (I do have a soft spot for delays, admittedly...)
Simon.
Hi guys!
I hope you can help me! I've recently built an echo base and everything is working fine except for feedback.
This is how it sounds when there is no input signal and i "turn" feedback on:
http://www.4shared.com/mp3/suaA2F_5ba/echobase_feedback.html
I've checked the schematic, layout, devices and wiring for about five times now. I just can't find a mistake.
Maybe someone has a suggestion for me...
Hi
That sounds like it is going straight into maximum feedback, I would start by double checking all the connections to the feedback pot especially the one that is supposed to go to ground, also check the value of the resistor connected to the wiper of the feedback pot, it should be 20k.
Which layout are you using?
The resistor and the connections are fine.
I'm using my own layout in which I already included dub madness and diode lift mod. So maybe I've made a mistake there.
http://www.4shared.com/photo/exEp9IKRba/Feedback_Mods.html
The schematic looks correct for the dub madness and diode lift mods. It's a bit of a strange problem, just to check when you have the feedback turned all the way down it works fine and you just hear one echo? Then as soon as you start to to turn it up you get all that noise?
Yes, exactly. When feedback is turned off there is one echo and when I turn it up just a little there is feedback. But as soon as I turn it up more there is that noise.
I changed the 100k to a 50k and I get a bit more of the feedback function but in the end it's the same.
maybe take some voltages and post them here? Welcome to the forum!
It could be a problem with the dub madness mod, make sure the switch is connected so that it's normally open Ie: there's no connection between lug 2 of the switch and lug 3 of the level pot. Maybe check that there's nothing shorting the switch out on the layout, a stray blob of solder or something.
The other thing that could cause it is too much gain somewhere in the PT2399, perhaps check all the resistor values around pins 13, 14, 15 and 16.
Echobase and Taptation
Please don't all shout at me for this!
I have had a normal Echobase for a while - totally brilliant pedal - I bought two PCBs and have a second that I want to tie to Taptation - I would like to keep the Echobase mod controls.
I have the Taptation documents - the circuit in the PT2399 Interface Application Note gives a connection to pin 6 on the PT2399 - I have tried sifting through the Echobase and the Taptation threads on this forum but still haven't got it sorted in my mind how to sort this - anyone got a diagram?
Bill
Unfortunately you can't really have tap tempo and have the Echo Base's modulation at the same time, the PNP transistor used to do the modulation adds a different amount of resistance than the taptation is programmed for so the tapped tempo will not be accurate.
If you want to try it anyway, remove the Echo Base delay time pot and figure out which of the pads connects to pin 6 of the pT2399 and which pad connects to the PNP transistor. Then going from the taptation appnote (http://www.thetonegod.com/tech/datasheets/taptation_pt2399.pd) connect pins 5 and 6 of the MCP41100 to the pad going to pin 6 of the PT2399, and connect pin 7 of the MCP441100 to the pad going to the PNP transistor.
You've really got two options either add a switch that disconnects the modulation for when you want to use the tap tempo accurately or use the modulation from the taptation instead of the Echo Base's. Or a combination of both EB modulation or taptation modulation.
Thanks - I will have a play!
love this build. i need to build another with ALL THE MODS. i have one that i jumpered to never have tails, and the mod is always on so there is only a stomp and 5 knobs.
anyhoo, bump to an awesome build!
I built one of these during the last couple of weeks, using V1 of anon... PCB layout (I etched the board before I realised there was a V2 with better noise performance). Anyway it works great, I just have to mod it for v2 style buffers, and add a couple other things (like punch-in, great idea). Also, I think the time pot is wired backwards (in my head, delay time should increase as you turn the pot CW, on my build, CW decreases the delay time).
Anyway I'm mainly posting just to say thanks to Slacker for a great design and for the amazing number of years you have been helping people with their builds.
(And also ありがとうございます to anonymousfacelesscoward for the nice layouts).
Hello, sorry for digging upo this old post. I am building the echo base Version 2 (from 30/03/2010). I am making the vero board version. I was wondering if there is a schematic available for this version?
QuoteI am building the echo base Version 2 (from 30/03/2010). I am making the vero board version. I was wondering if there is a schematic available for this version?
There is a schematic for it. And good you dig this thread up because this is still one of the best DIY projects on the forum. Thanks Slacker! (and RG, Andrew, Francisco, et al.) This is how I search for something in long threads here, via search engine like DuckDuckGo:
"echo base version 2 schematic site:diystompboxes.com"
(http://jonandtina.net/static/images/echobaserev2-changes.png)
Thanks Garcho,
And thanks for the search-tip! I did not know it was possible to search like that in long topics. :icon_biggrin: I am even thinking of throwing out Google as my standard search engine. Is DuckDuckGo as good as Google?
Quote from: flagada on May 08, 2015, 04:33:12 AM
Thanks Garcho,
And thanks for the search-tip! I did not know it was possible to search like that in long topics. :icon_biggrin: I am even thinking of throwing out Google as my standard search engine. Is DuckDuckGo as good as Google?
duckduckgo has a problem searching for "images of a certain type" (wink, wink) if you know what I mean. it did last I tried it, anyway. worse censorship than chinese googoo.
Hi! I am new to your forums. I did the pedal, but the modulation it is not working correctly. Voltage op-amp U3 4558
1 - ~
2 - 5v
3 - 5v
4 - 0
5 - ~
6 - 5v
7 - ~
8 - 8v
Transistor BC560. Prompt where to look.
(http://savepic.su/5850962.jpg)
Hi all!
I've build v1 Echobase, and now when I tried it out, I have a few questions:
- I've expirienced some noise and hum when echobase is on, I suppose its some low quality capacitors or such, am I wrong?
- When I put to input some low frequency sound (from synth), it does not sound as same as from the synth itself (even with bypass). It lacks bass! I wonder if its a bug or a feature... What can cause this?
Can you please help me with those two "bugs"? :)
Thanks :)
Quote from: Coda on July 13, 2014, 07:06:41 AM
I built one of these during the last couple of weeks, using V1 of anon... PCB layout (I etched the board before I realised there was a V2 with better noise performance). Anyway it works great, I just have to mod it for v2 style buffers, and add a couple other things (like punch-in, great idea). Also, I think the time pot is wired backwards (in my head, delay time should increase as you turn the pot CW, on my build, CW decreases the delay time).
Anyway I'm mainly posting just to say thanks to Slacker for a great design and for the amazing number of years you have been helping people with their builds.
(And also ありがとうございます to anonymousfacelesscoward for the nice layouts).
do you have a link to the v2 layout?
What could cause the LFO to not work? My echobase was dropped, hard. A few wires came loose and the chips came out of their sockets. I put it all back, and its pretty much ok, but the LFO isn't working. Light won't pulsate, but the depth knob seems to add chorus. The speed knob does nothing. Unwired the LFO switch, no help. Once in a while this thing has acted funny (noisy, distortion) and unplugging and plugging it in makes it work correctly (before dropping I experienced this). I wonder if the PT2399 chip is bad... does the LFO depend at all on the PT2399 chip? Possibly the TL072 is bad in the mod section? (light still works but no pulsing anymore and the Mod speed pot does nothing now)
what a mystery... such a cool effect though. I've tried everything and i'm stumped. Anyone have any ideas?
I would check all the wiring and solder joints around the LFO section, could just be a loose connection. You could also try swapping the opamps in case the LFO one is damaged.
If that doesn't fix it if you could post the voltages for the LFO opamp that might give some clues.
seems like it was the opamp. I switched the two opamps and the LFO started working again, but now the volume is very low, which is the problem I had after it was dropped. Gonna go pick up a couple TL072 chips and replace both. I was reading somewhere that TL052 is a better quality chip that can be used, has anyone tried those instead?
and, while I have you attention, is there a cap that I can change somewhere that will allow more low frequencies into the delay circuit? Seems like (to my ears) nothing below about 300 or 400 hz is getting into the delay circuit due to a HPF designed into this circuit. Sounds pretty cool as is, but if I could dial in more bass I would like to try it. Been scratching my head over that one for a while but I am a musician, not an engineer :-[
Thanks so much Slacker! This is an amazing pedal that you simply cannot buy anywhere.
Quote from: slacker on August 27, 2007, 04:33:19 PM
Here's something I've been working on for a while, it's a PT2399 based delay called Echo Base. It started out with some ideas for mods for a Rebote, but after playing around for a while I thought I might as well start from scratch and design something new.
The main features are:-
1. It's got an LFO that modulates the delay time for chorus/vibe/tape flutter effects, a bit like a DMM.
2. Shock horror, it's not true bypass, that's because....
3. It can do delay tails, where you bypass it and the delays die away instead of being cut off instantly.
Here's the schematic (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/echobase.png)
The bypass is done using CD4066 switches and works like this. The signal goes through the input buffer which sends the dry signal straight to the output buffer, the signal also goes through the first 4066 switch (A) and into the PT2399. This section is mostly from the appnote on the datasheet with a few values tweaked, but with the output taken from pin 14 like on the Rebote 2.5, doing this taps off just the delayed/wet signal. The wet signal then passes through another 4066 switch (B) and gets mixed with the dry signal via the Level pot.
When the effect is on both of these switches are open. When it's bypassed one of the switches closes depending on the position of the Tails/Boss switch. In Tails mode the input switch (A) is closed, cutting off the signal to the PT2399, the wet sound then dies out naturally.
In Boss mode the output switch (B) closes so the wet sound is instantly cut off, the input to the PT2399 is still open. This is how Boss pedals work, hence the name.
The modulation is a simple triangle LFO hooked up to a PNP transistor in series with the delay time pot. It took quite a bit of experimenting to get this working nicely but I think it's a neater solution than using a LED/LDR combo.
Here's some sound clips, they're just guitar >> Echo Base >> Condor >> Soundcard.
Slapback (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebslapback.mp3) Bypassed then effect
Rhythmic repeats (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebspacey.mp3) Bypassed then effect
Chord stabs showing the longest delay time (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/eblong.mp3)
Chorus (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebchorus.mp3) Bypassed then effect
Heavy vibe (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebvibe.mp3) Bypassed then effect
Slow vibe (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebvibeslow.mp3) Bypassed then effect
Pitch bending (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebpitchbend.mp3)
Delayed vibes (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebvibedelay.mp3)
Example of delay tails (http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebtails.mp3) This starts with some (bad) distorted lead then the distortion and the delay are turned off and you can hear the echoes dying away behind the clean playing. The switch pop is from the distortion pedal.
Here's a guts shot of the finished pedal, vero layout to follow shortly :)
(http://www.eskimo.plus.com/fxstuff/ebguts.jpg)
Thanks go to R.G. and The Tone God for their electronic switching articles and Francisco Peña because if it wasn't for the Rebote I wouldn't have built this.
Enjoy :)
Hi , just seen this but the schematic link is dead do you know how i can get hold of a copy? Just learning and just made a simple PT2399 circuit (pcb already made) want to go to next level and eventually make a cv controlled one . Thanks for your time! :)
The version with some mods is a couple posts before yours. This changes normally are for better...
Fast search showed other versions with minor changes:
(http://i.imgur.com/XXFXY.png)
Quote from: Lumenus on July 22, 2015, 10:49:48 AM
Hi! I am new to your forums. I did the pedal, but the modulation it is not working correctly.
no offense, but looking at the solder side of your board makes me think there are some loose connections, cold joints, or solder bridges. i would triple check all the solder points. удачи!
Quote from: ropucha on August 17, 2015, 04:50:27 AM
I've expirienced some noise and hum when echobase is on, I suppose its some low quality capacitors or such, am I wrong?
how did you build it? taylor's musicpcb.com board or etch or vero? how are you powering the effect?
if you have no/bad caps filtering the power supply, you'd most likely get some 60Hz/50Hz hum.
for the most part, in guitar pedal universe, caps either work, or don't work; "quality" is not a linear continuum with caps the way it is with wine or fabric or wood. regarding guitar pedals, the quality of a cap would be how long it lives. don't tell that to the hi-fi crowd, unless you have a few spare hours and a high tolerance for BS.
Quote from: Mad Science on November 09, 2015, 07:45:54 AM
What could cause the LFO to not work? My echobase was dropped, hard. A few wires came loose and the chips came out of their sockets. I put it all back, and its pretty much ok, but the LFO isn't working. Light won't pulsate, but the depth knob seems to add chorus. The speed knob does nothing. Unwired the LFO switch, no help. Once in a while this thing has acted funny (noisy, distortion) and unplugging and plugging it in makes it work correctly (before dropping I experienced this). I wonder if the PT2399 chip is bad... does the LFO depend at all on the PT2399 chip? Possibly the TL072 is bad in the mod section? (light still works but no pulsing anymore and the Mod speed pot does nothing now)
wires shouldn't "come loose" from dropping something, no matter how hard you drop it. is your circuit board mounted? was there a battery inside the enclosure flying around? just like seat belts, one of the reasons to bolt things down is not just to protect the thing being bolted, but to protect everything else from said thing violently flying around free.
the depth knob is "adding chorus" - at any delay time?
QuoteOnce in a while this thing has acted funny (noisy, distortion) and unplugging and plugging it in makes it work correctly
IIRC that's happened to others with all types of PT2399-based circuits. not sure if there is a consensus on why/how. do a search, you'll find info.
QuotePossibly the TL072 is bad
with the exception of reversing the polarity of the voltage going to the power pins, it's actually pretty hard to electrically destroy an op amp, in guitar pedal universe anyway. sometimes they can even live through that (don't quote me, ha!).
Quote from: Mad Science on November 12, 2015, 09:58:39 AM
seems like it was the opamp. I switched the two opamps and the LFO started working again, but now the volume is very low, which is the problem I had after it was dropped. Gonna go pick up a couple TL072 chips and replace both. I was reading somewhere that TL052 is a better quality chip that can be used, has anyone tried those instead?
unless you know why an IC would be "better", don't bother. the TL052 has a higher bandwidth and slew rate than the TL072. neither matters in this application.
Quote from: thomasha on January 10, 2016, 05:31:08 PM
The version with some mods is a couple posts before yours.
i believe this is the up to date schematic:
(http://jonandtina.net/static/images/echobaserev2-changes.png)
Does anyone have a PT2399 spice model available? Thanks in advance.
hi guys!
this is my first reply on this forum and I wouldnt want to waste your time if I havent already wasted enough of mine:)
Im playing around with the tap tempo option (I've built the PTAP from this threath if anyone remembers it http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=75740.0)
I tursted it and made it myself
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/sik2w8cdbdf1ab5/ECHO%20BASE%20-%20PROJECT%20DATA%202.pdf?dl=0)
and I tryed it with one of my old cavedwellers first to see if there is any response from this. notning.... did everything i should - pin 5/6 from the MCP40150 to pin 6 of pt2399, then pin 2 from ATtiny to the lug 2 of the 50k Time pot.
I checked if I did a mistake with the regulator also nothing... the dweller is working as if there is no time pot... I have even started to thing that I need to programe the ATtiny with a software and some kind of board that connects chips... Im really desperate here.. so I really need to do this?
now my question: after extensively searching for any verification on this schematics for the PTAP I havent understood if it has been confirmed as working - has anyone had luck with this one on the echo base and does is work the same for all the pt2399 delays?
if so, I must be doing something wrong. if not, should I just try another option? I know there is the taptation but I dont think I can get it here in europe as fast as I would like to. :-\
... now I also found this: http://uk-electronic.de/onlineshop/product_info.php?products_id=1797&osCsid=9f026e3ce8c7f112ecbf2f4975e25fed
PTAP kit for most of the pt2399 delays - is this my solution if the other one is not working?
I would be most greatfull of anykind of help!
thank you!
sorry for the photo...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sik2w8cdbdf1ab5/ECHO%20BASE%20-%20PROJECT%20DATA%202.pdf?dl=0
Hi Welcome to the forum :)
Quote from: 1reeko1 on January 19, 2016, 07:46:44 PM
I have even started to thing that I need to programe the ATtiny with a software and some kind of board that connects chips...
Yes the Attiny is a microcontroller, basically a tiny computer, you need to program it with the code for the PTAP, it won't do anything until it's been programmed. If you can find the PTAP code you could buy a programmer and program the ATtiny, I don't know if the code is still available online the project is quite old and a lot of the links in the thread you posted are broken.
Quote... now I also found this: http://uk-electronic.de/onlineshop/product_info.php?products_id=1797&osCsid=9f026e3ce8c7f112ecbf2f4975e25fed
That is probably the easiest solution or buy a taptation.
Thanks a lot for your reply!
yes I figured it out once I started researching the attiny and how it works so I did exacly as you said.. I found a local forum with the electicians here and Im waiting for someone to reply with the positive "yes I will program it for you" ;D
I also ordered the ptap programed so lets see what comes to hand first.
I'm very greatfull for all the information on here and I'm learning day by day!
keep up the great work for this comunity!
I will get back to you when I have the ptap and echo base ready with photos and project report!
hey there!
me again!
so I've integrated the ptap into the Echo Base and I've cut off the modulation. To bias the flash light on the ptap I had to put a resistor on the lug 6 of the pt2399. it works ok but with a few problems.
1. the repeats are not even as half as loud as before (on the level pot 100% they are still not louder than the original signal) and the feedback doesnt get to the oscillation. ( I changed the resistor 20k after the volume pot to 8.2k and I got to the oscillation. but still the repeats seem week and not as loud as I would want them...
2. I think I'm getting a little his into the repeats too but it's not in the metal box yet so maybe that's why it seems so...
is there an easy way to fix this? where to look into to raise the repeats volume? and will that affect the feedback as well?
thanks a lot!
Hey guys!
I've finaly finished my build and it's awesome! thanks for all the help!!
I will make a video in the near future with sounds for you to hear. I'm really happy that I understand this build more now!
thanks slacker for your time an effort!!
here's the link to the image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7du8lz8cxy4mpbk/FullSizeRender.jpg?dl=0
p.s. I hope you can see the photo
Omg so many pages. Anyone have latest layout and pcb? Or link to containing page?
http://www.musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay (http://www.musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay)
^ Highly recommended, also comes with an extensive build thread (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=84109.msg700055#msg700055). Has the most common mods and how to wire them with the PCB in the documentation as well.
Quote from: 1reeko1 on March 16, 2016, 09:28:46 AM
here's the link to the image: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7du8lz8cxy4mpbk/FullSizeRender.jpg?dl=0
Looks great.
I was actually looking for a layout so I could etch pcb myself. Feel like im cheating a bit if I buy a premade pcb. Wouldn't really be a DIY if I didn't make it. Takes the fun out of the whole thing. ;) Plus I Have copper clads and ferric chloride already. But thanks for the link anyway. That will be my backup plan if etching doesn't go as planned.
So what is difference between Ver.1 and Ver.2 ?
Pros and cons if any?
There's a PCB layout for version 1 here http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf (http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf) I don't know of any layouts for version 2.
The main difference between the two versions is the input buffer, the original one was a bit noisy although plenty of people built it without any complaints.
It wouldn't be hard to hack the pcb layout to change the version 1 buffer into the version 2.
Quote from: slacker on March 21, 2016, 04:29:04 PM
There's a PCB layout for version 1 here http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf (http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf) I don't know of any layouts for version 2.
The main difference between the two versions is the input buffer, the original one was a bit noisy although plenty of people built it without any complaints.
It wouldn't be hard to hack the pcb layout to change the version 1 buffer into the version 2.
I made a little adapter board for the new buffer that plugged into the ic socket of the old buffer.
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_4407.jpg)
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_4406.jpg)
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc305/davent/IMG_4463.jpg)
That adapter board is great.
Do you have a layout for that?
Quote from: BoogiemanX on March 27, 2016, 01:23:04 AM
That adapter board is great.
Do you have a layout for that?
I think this does it, was along time ago and i messed up trying to upload...
A short stubby 47uf cap would fit normally, the one i had was too tall so needed to be flopped over.
http://www.aronnelson.com/DIYFiles/up/EchoBase_Buffer_Pcbdoc.pdf
dave
Hello
I tried to make a board with just the modulation part of the Echo Base.
Can someone tell me if it's correct?
http://postimg.org/image/9ztcep5dj/
And also, would it work as an add on board on other pt2399 delays?
Thanks in advance!
HI
Yes that looks correct to me and yes it should work with most PT2399 delays.
Welcome to the forum :)
Nice!
Thanks for the reply and the welcome!
Can't find PCB for Version 2. Is it exists?
...
Quote from: slacker on April 24, 2013, 01:33:49 PM
This is info for Mr Gambit07, tried to reply to your PM but it says your inbox is full. Thought I'd put his here in case you check out the forum.
As far as I know no one has made a DIY PCB layout for the latest version, the only PCB is the musicpcb one which you have to buy http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay/ (http://musicpcb.com/pcbs/echo-base-delay/).
There is a vero layout with all the mods http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/EchoBase.gif (http://www.sabrotone.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/EchoBase.gif)
There is a PCB layout for the first version here http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171 (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44171).
If you have the skills you could probably modify this into the latest version, it is mostly changes around the top right hand TL072.
Quote from: slacker on March 21, 2016, 04:29:04 PM
There's a PCB layout for version 1 here http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf (http://chawk.wordpress.com/files/2008/02/echo_base_pcb.pdf) I don't know of any layouts for version 2.
The main difference between the two versions is the input buffer, the original one was a bit noisy although plenty of people built it without any complaints.
It wouldn't be hard to hack the pcb layout to change the version 1 buffer into the version 2.
Your Vero has 36 resistors but schematic for Version 2 has only 35 resistors. There is no one 10k.
And building pdf has parts manifest with 37 resistors (two 22k) but in schematic in that pdf - same 35 resistors.
Where is the true?
Quote from: Bananas on August 27, 2016, 10:07:08 PM
Your Vero has 36 resistors but schematic for Version 2 has only 35 resistors. There is no one 10k.
I think R36 on the vero is the extra resistor, this is for the "dub madness" mod in the build pdf http://www.musicpcb.com/s/Echo-Base-build-PDF-updated-051810.pdf (http://www.musicpcb.com/s/Echo-Base-build-PDF-updated-051810.pdf) that resistor is not shown on the schematic.
Quote
And building pdf has parts manifest with 37 resistors (two 22k) but in schematic in that pdf - same 35 resistors.
Where is the true?
The two 22k resistors are for the "humbucker friendly" mod in the build pdf, they replace the two 47k resistors.
Well, going to try to draw PCB for version 2. Going to follow this schematic. I hope I'm not miss any thing:
(http://i.imgur.com/G26ApcS.png) (http://i.imgur.com/Mt12OLW.jpg)
Could you help me to clarify two detail about the schematic, please?
I'm not sure of the correct arrangement of the contacts of the potentiometer "Speed". Which of the contacts is directed to resistor R2 (27k), "1" or "3"?
And I'm not sure on the modification "LFO waveshape".
Where to connect the contact "3" of the pot "Shape"? In simple words, to the C25 or to the R2?
Hello Diyers,
i'm reviving an old thread, but I'm sure there are still a lot of people interested in this great projet.
I've built the delay on a breadboard to check it out, using the echobaserev2 schematics dated 30/03/2010.
Very very nice delay..but the modulation part is not working, and I can not find where I made a mistake..
I checked the circuit and the values several times..still no mod..
The only thing that happens when I move the Mod Depth pot is the Delay Time going very noticeably slower or faster.
The Mod Speed has zero effect..
I'm using 2x TL072CP from Texas Instruments, 1x 2N5089, 1x 2N5087, 1x CD4066, 1x PT2399 and a non-polarized electrolytic 1uF cap.
The one thing I'm confused with is how the CD4066 is powered and grounded, I can't find anything on this schematics, but still I put 9V on pin 14 and grounded pin 7.
Here are my voltages, some are a bit crazy indeed:
PT2399
1. 5v OK
2. 2.5v OK
3. 0 OK
4. 0 OK
5. 2.89v 3.35V
6. 2.5v ok
7. 0.5v 0.68V
8. 0.5 v 0.76V
9 - 16 all 2.5v OK
4066
Some of the voltages change depending on if the effect is on or bypassed (off) so I've shown the voltages for the different states.
1. 4.6v 2.05V
2. 4.6v 2.05V
3. 0.4v 0V
4. 0.4v 0V
5. 0 0.07V
6. 0.45v off 4.5v on 7.15V !!
7. 0 0.07V
8. 9v 2.5V
9. 3v on 0.32 off 2.5V
10. 4.6v 2.92V
11. 4.6v 2.53V
12. 8.5 on 7.39V
13. 8.5 on 8.50V
14. 9 9V
When the effect is off depending on which position the tails/Boss switch is in either pin 12 or 13 will be 1.25v the other will be about 8.7 volts.
The TL072 voltages are
U3 top left of vero
1. 5v
2. 5v
3. 5v
4. 0
5. 5v OK EXCEPT 5=2.5V
6. 5v
7. 5v
8. 9v
U1 bottom left of vero, this is the LFO
1. changes 5V
2. 5v OK
3. 5v OK
4. 0.8v 2.5V
5. changes 3.35V
6. 5v OK
7. changes 3.85V
8. 8v 6.41V
The voltages on the 5089 should change depending on the position of the bypass switch.
E. 0 0.05V
B. 0.63v off 0 on 0.05V
C. 0.89v off 8.5v on 8.5V
Any idea anybody?
Thnks a lot
b
HI
Going from your voltages something is wrong around the LFO opamp. I would check that the resistors going to pins 4 and 8 of the opamp are the correct value, they should be 220 Ohms, if you've used say 220k by mistake that could cause the problem you're having.
Welcome aboard :)
Thank you very much slacker,
and thanks for the warm welcome :)
I hate wasting people's time, but I've been browsing mostly all 76 pages of that thread, and couldn't find an answer..
(I'm just more motivated to make it work and try on those awesome mods!)
You were right, my 220R resistors were mislabeled! (I just got a huge assortment not long ago..)
They were really 1.2K!
And because I switch components when I troubleshoot, I just took some from the same mislabeled package without checking their actual value with a multimeter..
I had to replace them with 240R resistors though as I don't have any 220R
Also, instead of using a 10M resistor at pin 6, I used 2x 5.1M in series.
So now I got voltages right around the TL072 Lfo, but still the same symptoms and no mod..some weirdness remain for the CD4066's voltages and the other opamp:
4066
1. 4.6v 2.89V
2. 4.6v 2.89V
3. 0.4v 0V
4. 0.4v 0V
5. 0 0V
6. 0.45v off 4.5v on 7.15V !!
7. 0 0V
8. 9v 2.56V
9. 3v on 0.32 off 2.56V
10. 4.6v 2.88V
11. 4.6v 2.88V
12. 8.5 on 7.39V
13. 8.5 on 8.50V
14. 9 9V
When the effect is off depending on which position the tails/Boss switch is in either pin 12 or 13 will be 1.25v the other will be about 8.7 volts.
The TL072 voltages are
U3 top left of vero
1. 5v
2. 5v
3. 5v
4. 0
5. 5v OK EXCEPT 5=2.5V
6. 5v
7. 5v
8. 9v
I really can't find out where the next problem comes from..I've checked my values with a proper ohmmeter.
Any help would be greatly apprieciated!
b
Where you're measuring about 2.5 volts when you're expecting about 5 volts is probably caused by your meter, have a look at my post here for a explanation http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=110128.msg1009145#msg1009145 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=110128.msg1009145#msg1009145). If the pedal sounds ok and the bypass switching is working then there's probably nothing wrong.
Have you got the LED connected? If you have does it flash when the effect is on or is it just constantly lit? If it's not flashing then the LFO isn't working which is why you have no modulation. There is a known problem with the LFO in that it stops working if the supply voltage is too low but it looks like you have a good 9 volts so that shouldn't be the problem. I would suggest double checking all the component values and connections around the LFO or maybe just rebuild that section in case you've made an error.
Hello!
and thank you again for your help slacker..
It works!
It took me a closer look to how opamps really work to realize that shorting pins 1 & 2 would cancel the effect..I had the On/Off of the mod wrong.
The mod just started to work when I disconnected the jumper wire going from pin 1 to pin 2 of the TL072.
So thank you again, I just took on electronics a few month ago, this place looks like a great community! :)
Cheers!
b
Cool, good to hear you got it working.
Hello everybody!
I'm a little late to the party, but was hoping I might be able to get a little direction in my Echo Base build. I've been going over this thread, and checking and re-checking my work for about a month now. I'm definitely on the novice end of the spectrum, but have built two pedals without incident. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated - thank you!
I'm using the MusicPCB board.
Symptoms:
The effect is always on (bypass switch does nothing). The LED is never lit. I can hear the delay is working - i can get self oscillation and all the pots change the parameters, but no signal passes through the effect. I can hear the clean signal however. Its as though I have both the delay, and the clean signal but it is not passing through the effect.
By accident, I discovered if I bridge pins 13 and 14 of the 4066 or the E and B of 2n5089 the LED turns on (and pulses with the oscillation) and the pedal seems to work properly (although bypass still doesn't work); I can get the signal to pass through the delay and it sounds pretty close to how it should.
Things I have tried so far:
Checking all solder points, reflow solder, checking for bridges
Replaced all IC's with others, from different sources. (PT replaced multiple times with others, but from same source)
Replaced the 2n5089
Here are my voltages:
4066:
1. 4.4
2. 4.4
3. 0
4. 0
5. 0
6. .4
7. 0
8. oscillates between 3.6-8v
9. 0
10. 4.71
11. 4.71
12. 9.38
13. .86
14. 9.59
PT2399
1. 5.05
2. 2.53
3. 0
4. 0
5. 3.09
6. 2.53
7. .62
8. .62
Pins 9-16 are all 2.54
TL072 on the "IN" side of board:
1. 5.06
2. 5.06
3. 4.6
4. 0
5. 5.06
6. 5.06
7. 5.06
8. 9.57
TL072 on "OUT" side of board:
1. 8
2. 3.3
3. 5.07
4. .86
5. oscillates between 4 and 6
6. 5
7. oscillates between 2 and 8
8. 8.7
7805
1. 5
2. 0
3. 9
5089
E 0
B .6
C .84
BC560
1. 2.3
2. 2.9
3. 0
Any and all help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance!!
welcome to the forum, bccbass.
can you post some pics of that which you have built, please? board, component and copper side, and off-board parts, so's we don't miss anything.
there is something amiss around the "out" side TL072. pin 4 should be 0V, not some part volts, and pin 1 should be ~4V5. if you fitted the IC's in sockets, pull the IC's out (after powering off), power on and measure the voltages again on the empty IC socket pins.
Most certainly!
I re-measured the "out" TL072 and got more normal readings:
1. Oscillates between 4-6v
2. 5.06
3. 5.06
4. Changes between .7 and .86
5. Oscillates between 4-6v
6. 5.06
7. Oscillates between 3-8v
8. 8.8
With the IC removed, the sockets read:
1. 1.05
2. 1.05
3. 5.06
4. 0
5. .7 (then slowly reduces)
6. 5.06
7. 1.7 (then slowly reduces)
8. 9.6
My inclination would be to just buy another PCB and start over, but they're sold out. :/
Thank you!!
(https://s1.postimg.org/6mjt3acyzv/IMG_1177.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6mjt3acyzv/)
(https://s1.postimg.org/7ewol0vi63/IMG_1178.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/7ewol0vi63/)
(https://s1.postimg.org/1b4wiktgx7/IMG_1179.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/1b4wiktgx7/)
well, now you just have to hope slacker happens along.
while we wait for him ....... please be having a look at the resistor next to pin 14 of the 4066. read the colour bands for me, tell me what value you have fitted.
I can't see you led's orientation from the pics, and I'm a bit worried about how many solder blobs and heat melts I can see on the component side. but if it works, carry on.
Thank you for looking over my work! Yes - you are correct - the resistor by pin 14 is 10ohm, not 10k. I (very stupidly) put all 10k r's in as 10 Ohm. I must have missed that one - I'll fix now.
And yes, I agree, my board looks like its been in the wars - between the resistor debacle and me replacing transistors and trying to fix everything its taken a beating. I very well might try to source a new pcb and start over.
The LED is oriented correctly, I believe, because when I bridge those two aforementioned points it comes on pulses with the LFO speed.
Again - thank you kindly for taking the time to look over my shoddy work!
Resistor has been replaced - and is still performing as before except:
The bridge between 13 and 14 on the 4066 no longer makes it work, but the bridge between E and B of the 2n5089 does still make it work correctly.
well, that point to your bypass switch being bad, cause it's meant to short the 5089 base and emitter to pull the collector low, taking 4066 pin 6 with, and whichever of pins 12 and 13 is selected by the tails/boss switch.
but slacker will be able to clear all this up, I bet.
in fakt, looking at what I can see of your switch wiring, it appears you have connected to a lug of both poles, instead of a lug and the common of one pole [if that is a dpdt X-wing switch]. pick one wire, move it from where it is to the middle lug of the other switch half, report back.
Its actually a spdt switch - sorry for the unclear picture!
I agree - I think there is a problem somewhere in the switching section, but I think its more than just a wiring issue as the switch does nothing, and the delay is always on - its when I short that transistor that the audio signal is able to pass through the delay and be effected.
:-[
I have to admit that the more I walk around thinking about that transistor, the less I understand the working of it. you say shorting the transistor base to ground makes it work, but the switch action doesn't? also, I was wondering about that TL072 pin 4 that wasn't reading 0V. can you check continuity with ground on that IC?
I put the bypass transistor section on the bb to see what is. (I also saw on the circuit diagram the resistor to pin 4 from the TL072, so now that makes sense.)
with the switch on/short/closed/connecting, the transistor turns OFF, so there is no current in the collector resistor, and the collector then sits about 8V6. this pulls all those resistors hanging off it high/on/1.
when the switch is off/open, the c-b resistor provides base bias, the transistor turns ON, pulling the collector down to near ground/0V, I measured around 0V8, which SHOULD be low enough for the stuff following to think 0/off/low.
so - if you measure the collector voltage with the switch open, and then push the switch, does it swing? if no - does it swing when you short across the switch lugs?
geeze, I hope the problem really is that transistor ......
Hi all. Been a while since i posted here. Loving the echo base... excespt for one small bug.
Basically sometimes it loses volume. This happens when the effect is engaged or not engaged. Obviously the effect is always "on" because it's not true bypass, so it can happen in both instances. It's pretty annoying. Doesn't happen often and I don't know how to recreate the fault. Basically this stops it from being gig-worthy.
I have some other PT2399's lying around that i might try in the mean time. Anyone got any ideas?
Sounds like a bad connection. While listening with signal going through, gently wiggle wires around a bit, see if you can make it happen. Lightly prod the components on the board with a chopstick or similar. Could also be a bad footswitch, internally intermittant.
Hi,
I'm trying to make the V2 scheme in a PCB board in Eagle. I need some help:
1. Vref terminals. What are they and whether they should be connected to each other?
2. Why is the color changed (green and red) around the 4066, U4A and U4D ?
3. A/B ?? What should continue to "A/B".
4. Pin 3 and 4 from 4066 are not connected ?
I attached the scheme with some highlights on this questions.
Thank you,
(https://s13.postimg.org/73g9s1cyb/echobaserev2copy.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/73g9s1cyb/)
Hi Cenzoru,
Firstly, I should mention that I am not familiar with this particular schematic, but I have built the full version, with delay time modulation, so I may be of help.
1. Vref is short for voltage reference, in this case it provides DC bias for the two op-amp stages (U3A and U3B). Yes, you should tie every point labeled Vref together, they are all the same circuit node. It's the same as if there were wires connecting them, but instead they're labeled to keep the schematic neat and readable. The same happens with +9V and ground.
2. This one I can't answer. My guess is that someone highlighted those parts to illustrate their point in a discussion.
3. Connect "A/B" to "A" to get delay tails. Connect "A/B" to "B" to get Boss style delay (no tails, delayed signal is chopped off abruptly when effect is bypassed). This feature is explained in the original post of this thread. In the full feature schematic, node "A/B" is wired to an SPDT toggle switch so you can have both modes.
4. Yes, they are not connected to anything. The 4th switch on the CD4066 is not required and so it's left unused.
Hope it helps.
^ yes, no need to look at that schematic, look at the original:
http://www.musicpcb.com/documentation/ (http://www.musicpcb.com/documentation/)
find the Echo Base link at the bottom of the list and you'll open a PDF with not just the original V2 schematic but also the BOM, some mods etc.
Thanks for yours answers guys.
So far my scheme looks like a football camp, it's growing bigger and bigger and it's really complicated, because I couldn't divide for example the TL072 symbol in 2 different/independent pieces, so all the routes are really messy. Anyway I've started to learn some PCB components layout so this way it will be much easier to finish the board.
Quote from: Oolooloo on February 28, 2018, 06:50:25 PM
Hi Cenzoru,
Firstly, I should mention that I am not familiar with this particular schematic, but I have built the full version, with delay time modulation, so I may be of help.
Any chance to get that scheme or PCB layout for the full version ?
Thank you!
QuoteAny chance to get that scheme or PCB layout for the full version ?
did you see my post directly before yours?
here it is again:
Quote^ yes, no need to look at that schematic, look at the original:
http://www.musicpcb.com/documentation/
find the Echo Base link at the bottom of the list and you'll open a PDF with not just the original V2 schematic but also the BOM, some mods etc.
Hey folks,
I'm trying to clear out some old, half-finished projects and came across an old Echo Base PCB I had mostly populated eons ago. I've finished it now, but it's clear my soldering and quality control have come a long way in the last 8 years or so, so I've been re-doing portions of the board and re-checking components.
Suffice it to say, the delay now works, but I'm getting no love from the modulation. Here's what I know:
- The LFO LED lights up solid, no matter the position of the pots
- I can hear a faint ticking that changes in time with the mod speed pot
- My voltages are in line with those Slacker posted ages ago (here: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60662.msg498824#msg498824) except for pins 8 & 9 of the 4066.
Anyone have any experience similar to this?
The PCB I've got is an old one (not one of Taylor's). It's an older layout from Anonymousfacelesscoward:
(https://s17.postimg.org/i86sxqc8r/image.png) (https://postimg.org/image/i86sxqc8r/)
I'm not too bothered, as I've also got one of Taylor's PCBs kicking around that I figure I'll build up while troubleshooting this one, so I have a comparison.
Hey Paul,
From what I can gather from the layout, it's expected that the LED would light up solid. It's hooked to V+ and not the LFO.
Since you hear the ticking rate change with the pot, the LFO itself should be working. I would look for look for connectivity/wiring issues around the PNP transistor and Mod Depth pot. Remember to check transistor orientation (check the pinout if you subbed it for a different part).
I also noticed that this layout is missing the 10uF cap that is in series with the 240k resistor coming from the LFO, in more recent versions, which I believe serves to prevent the depth modulation from interacting with the delay time too much.
Quote from: Oolooloo on March 03, 2018, 11:10:43 AM
Hey Paul,
From what I can gather from the layout, it's expected that the LED would light up solid. It's hooked to V+ and not the LFO.
Since you hear the ticking rate change with the pot, the LFO itself should be working. I would look for look for connectivity/wiring issues around the PNP transistor and Mod Depth pot. Remember to check transistor orientation (check the pinout if you subbed it for a different part).
I also noticed that this layout is missing the 10uF cap that is in series with the 240k resistor coming from the LFO, in more recent versions, which I believe serves to prevent the depth modulation from interacting with the delay time too much.
Thanks! I had heard of various different layout options out there with older ones having an LED that doesn't blink with the rate, so that makes sense. I do believe this board is from long before things like Taylor's were ready.
It's interesting you mention the 10uf cap, as I was curious about that too. The mod depth pot does seem to have a small effect on delay time in this version.
It sounds like the LFO might actually be working then (the voltages around the TL072 in that area read as though everything is fine), but the actual signal isn't being modulated for some reason. I'll revisit it and scour that area. I may end up not spending too much more time on this, as I do have a brand new PCB from Taylor as well and this old board is starting to show the signs of too much monkeying around.
Got it sorted.
Turns out my BC560 isn't working (could have been fried somewhere in the process, I suppose), so I swapped for a 2N3906 (and switched the orientation based on pinout) and now it's great.
Thanks for your help!
For anyone who has done the dub madness switch, do you find it doesn't work when the feedback knob is set to a single repeat?
Quote from: davent on March 28, 2016, 01:31:23 PM
Quote from: BoogiemanX on March 27, 2016, 01:23:04 AM
That adapter board is great.
Do you have a layout for that?
I think this does it, was along time ago and i messed up trying to upload...
A short stubby 47uf cap would fit normally, the one i had was too tall so needed to be flopped over.
http://www.aronnelson.com/DIYFiles/up/EchoBase_Buffer_Pcbdoc.pdf
dave
Hi Dave, Hi Everybody.
could you help me to understand why on some schemes in TL072 pins 1 and 2 are connected together and on the other 6 and 7?
http://jonandtina.net/static/images/echobaserev2-changes.png
and your's example:
http://www.aronnelson.com/DIYFiles/up/EchoBase_Buffer_Pcbdoc.pdf
Thanks:)
Hi mastad - welcome.
There are two independent op-amps in a TL072. You can use either of them in whichever combination suits you. Here's a picture to illustrate:
(http://www.alexallmont.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/tl072.png)
When you tie the output pin to the inverting input, you make a buffer. So the first example you mention is making a buffer from the 2nd op-amp in the package - pins 5, 6 and 7. The other buffer circuit is using the 1st op-amp - pins 1, 2 and 3.
Hello everyone. It's been a while since my last visit to this great forum. Thank you for all your countless efforts helping all newbies like me to build again. I would like to ask again for your help based from this layout: https://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/anonymousfacelesscoward/19192939.html. Adding a momentary foot switch for those infinite repeats. My plan is to put 2 delays in one box. The other is the rebote 2.5 which I will put the momentary foot switch based from build notes of the said pedal. Thank you so much in advance!
Sent from my ASUS_X008D using Tapatalk
I'm about to build the Echo Base from Taylor's board and I just had a few quick questions if anyone knows.
There were reports of distortion with humbuckers so the recommended fix was to put 2x27k in place of the 2x47k as shown in the mod document, but there is also a diode lift option to reduce distortion, are these basically the same fix? Just two different approaches ? The diode lift indicates that it also changes the character of the repeats, would this be worth putting a couple sets on an on-off-on ?
The dub madness mod, puts a 27k in series with a switch, is it worth putting a pot in series with a switch to tweak/tame the runaway ?
I realize these are experimental options, but with damn near 80 pages of info I figured someone may have tried these things.
I was planning on putting the input gain values in series with a double gang pot so I could trim it depending on how hot my guitar signal is.
Thanks for looking
if you're up for having a large enclosure, with at least 2 foot switches and many pots, then just go ahead and add everything, almost nothing rewards knob wiggling and switch flicking like a delay, even one made with a PT2399.
otherwise i would breadboard it and tweak to fit your pickups and playing style and then hard wire whatever you can.
i would add the N.O. foot switch "punch in" option without any second thought, the most used "option/mod" of any pedal i've ever made, i can't understand why anyone would build a delay without that feature.
Yeah I usually add all the options with most stuff, as I'm not a gigging musician worried about board space. I built a ruthenium reverb to box with this in a DD sized box.
By the Punch In mod do you mean the dub madness?
Thanks
By "punch in" i'm referring to having a N.O. momentary foot switch in parallel with the normal latching foot switch. This way, when you actuate the momentary switch, you only have delay for as long as you hold it down. When you lift your foot off of the switch, the echoes trail off and your dry signal is unaffected. This only works in "tails" mode, if you have your delay wired in "true bypass" as soon as you lift your foot off the switch you'll hear an awkward, abrupt end to your delay echoes.
Why anyone would chose to not use "tails" is a complete mystery to me. Is it the cult of true bypass? If you care that much about your precious "tone", you might as well forget about using a PT2399 delay.
Anyway, with "punch in" you can select a brief moment to get delay-ed and the echoes finish off in a way that sounds natural. It's nice for when you want some echo but don't need a constant wash of delayed notes à la U2. It can be a very nice effect for say, the last few notes of your solo, or one staccato chord, or a pick scratch, etc. If you had to click the latching switch twice in a row quickly, things can get sloppy and clumsy, and if you had too much to drink, you'll fall over.
Ok yeah that makes sense with tails :icon_mrgreen: thanks for the idea, I always forget about tails and buffered effects typically only needing two poles.. I'm having some troubles with my Ruthenium so this may just end up in an XX by itself. Lots of room for all the mods and a momentary on switch.
Hi, everyone. I just ordered DIY Echo Base kit and I'm wondering is it useful at all to include 9V battery as an alternative power source to DC input or would this pedal drain the battery too quickly and it's not worth the trouble to add it to the circuit? It seems this could be the case...
Also, as I'm still a DIY newbie, where should I connect the 9V battery clip so the battery is used when there's no plug in DC jack? The bypass in this circuit is not what I'm used to see in my previous (and very simple fuzzbox etc.) builds. (See pic)
Any help will be appreciated.
(https://s8.postimg.cc/fwjc9g4ch/echobase.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fwjc9g4ch/)
I have honestly never run a delay off a 9V battery, but I'd imagine that it will tap out a battery pretty quick. You'd hook it up just like every other offboard wiring including a 9V battery, battery and dc jack grounds connected, and the battery power attached to the Battery lug on the power jack.
Hello, I've used the Echo Base v2 schematic to design my own PCB, I've soldered everything but I can't get it to work properly.
What happens is:
- when it's not bypassed and I turn the feedback knob up it self-oscillates quite loudly
- when it's bypassed I can't hear anything, if I pluck a string I can hear a single sound, but it's very distorted and it's more of a sound that an amp might make when turned on, or if you unplug your cable from the guitar and knock on the jack plug
I got the following voltages from PT2399 (measured when it's bypassed):
1 5.31
2 2.58
3 0
4 0
5 3.03
6 2.56
7 4.88
8 4.88
9-16 2.64
I also took oscilloscope screenshots of input and output signals, using a function generator as input - 440 Hz, 2 Vpp sine and square wave. Yellow is input, green is output. The screenshots are:
- sine input when it's bypassed
- square input when it's bypassed
- square input when it's not bypassed and I set the knobs randomly. If I fiddle with the knobs the output signal does change with square wave input and it does change in the way I would expect it to.
The output signal looks the same bypassed and not bypassed with sine input, which is why I didn't bother to make another screenshot. So overall it looks like it does something when the input is square but with sine it just doesn't work? Any ideas guys? Thanks in advance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TLkVx2xX/scope_0.png) (https://postimg.cc/TLkVx2xX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9wrGQ3Xw/scope_1.png) (https://postimg.cc/9wrGQ3Xw)
(https://i.postimg.cc/K4z7NT7c/scope_2.png) (https://postimg.cc/K4z7NT7c)
sounds like a problem around the first opamp stage.
The fact that it has a loud feedback means that the rest is probably working.
Check around the opamp/ input stage. Some pictures would help. You could try to use an audio probe and follow the signal path. That would definetely show where the signal stops or has a bad connection.
Thank you very much! It turned out to indeed be due to the input op amp, but it was a mistake on my part. I had connected the 1M resistor at the positive input to ground instead of Vref. I ran some wires to get around this bug and it seems to be working well, judging by waveforms. I will do some testing with the guitar later and modify this post.
About the battery question that was asked here before - I tried supplying the circuit from a 9 V battery, but it got drained very quickly -the voltage dropped to about 8.5 V (from 10.5) in like 20 minutes of testing.
Edit: I finally got around to test it with a guitar. I must say I am VERY surprised. This effect sounds really, really good. I can't seem to get anything good out of modulation, but I will find a knob setting that works for me I'm sure.
Couple questions about the schematic:
How is the "LFO" power source derived? Is it just a tap off the other 5volt rail?
I'm thinking of building this for line level source by using a balanced line receiver. Any idea where to start with that?
I'll probably use a BB ina 137 on the front end and a DRV 134 out. I feel like I could ditch U3 (TL072) in that case.
The VDD for the LFO op amps is via the 220Ω and 9VDC. The reference voltage is from the 5VDC off the regulator.
it's just a PT2399, you could configure the op amps as receiver/driver. what's your plan?
Quote from: garcho on January 30, 2019, 12:53:28 AM
The VDD for the LFO op amps is via the 220Ω and 9VDC. The reference voltage is from the 5VDC off the regulator.
it's just a PT2399, you could configure the op amps as receiver/driver. what's your plan?
Just after I posted I saw the LFO tap coming off the lm7805. Missed that before.
Not much of a plan yet, but I'm scheming a sorta lofi delay for mixing. I'd probably use a fixed modulation like an out of sorts tape machine and run everything off of +/- 16vdc
and I know Echoboy is awesome but where is the fun in that.
the schematic is gone
Her's a link to the schematic https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VGqzci8zidQ4iVsogg3Vu8R80TlXgEaV (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VGqzci8zidQ4iVsogg3Vu8R80TlXgEaV)
Hey, I just have a couple of questions - more for my own understanding than anything else..
What's the purpose of the 220r resistors on the 9v and ground connections from the modulation opamp?
I see that the 5v supply is being used as the reference voltage for the modulation opamp. Would it make any difference if I used a 4.5v reference voltage (I'm planning to build this in a box with some other bits and will already have a buffered 4.5v which I could use). It seems to me like using the 4.5v would make more sense but I might be missing something..
Thanks!
The 220R resistors are to try and keep noise from the LFO getting into the audio parts of the circuit by decoupling the supply to the LFO. To be honest I'm not sure the one to ground does anything, it could probably be replaced with a jumper.
It shouldn't make any difference if you used a 4.5 reference voltage instead of the 5 volts. When I designed it I just figured 5 volts was close enough to 4.5 so I'd save a few parts and use that as a reference. With hindsight this wasn't a great idea because the 5 volt supply can be a bit noisy.
If you're going to build this I would use this version instead, which has a better input buffer and quieter reference voltage.
Echo Base version 2 schematic (http://www.musicpcb.com/s/Echo-Base-build-PDF-updated-051810.pdf)
Thanks! And thanks for sharing the design!
Looking at the schematics I'm wondering, what need to be done in order to replace 50K time pot to the 10K to keep more or less the same delay time? Sorry if the question is silly.
I know, this thread is old, but I´ve got a question about the modulation of the Echobase:
I´d like to have the modulation slower. Is it possible? How can this be done?
In my version, the 27k in the modulation circuit is already lowered to 2,7k.
It´s such a great delay and with an underclocked pt2399, it almost sounds like a make noise strega delay...
Thanks! :icon_cool:
the 27k in series with the 1M Mod Speed pot? decreasing that value will faster the modulation. to slower it, I'd try adding to the 2u2 cap at pin 7 of U1B.
Quote from: delay dude on September 25, 2023, 09:36:52 AMI´d like to have the modulation slower.
For slower/lower: Bigger resistors or caps.