This build was a bit of an accident. I recently built a Phase 45 with JC Malliet's mods. The original concept was to fit the entire circuit including the pots on a piece of 9x37 hole perf. After buiding and testing the main board I wasn't really happy with the quite subtle phasing. All that hard work wasted? No way was that going to happen - so I cludged in a further two phase stages on a daughter board for a deeper phase effect. I never would have been able to squeeze a Phase 90 onto a board that small, so adding the 6x14 hole daughter board was a bit of a win really, getting the flexibility of the Maillet mods with a four stage phaser in the size of enclosure I chose, and with the pots mounted on the board which is my preferred building method.
As it evolved from one thing into another, there are two boards. If I was doing this again as an intentional build, I'd do a different layout with everything on one board. The possibility is also there to add as many daughter boards as you wish.......
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0003-6.jpg)
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0002-6.jpg)
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0009-5.jpg)
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/000_0010-2.jpg)
Here is my original Phase 45 with JC Maillet's mods layout. R23 is mounted on the copper side of the board:
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/Phase45.gif)
Here's the layout above but with the daughter board hookup points indicated:
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/PhaseEvolution.gif)
Here's the daughter board layout. C4 is mounted on the copper side of the board between pins 1 and 5 of the 4558. R4 and R5 (both 10K) are mounted under the 4558's socket:
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/2stagedaughterboard.gif)
Here's JC Maillet's original schematic, the red letters, A,B, C and D correspond to where I hacked in the two extra stages:
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/JCphase45modded-1.gif)
Here's the daughter board schematic:
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/2stagedaughterboardschematic.gif)
Finally, here's a link to JC's project on his site: http://www.lynx.bc.ca/~jc/pedalsPhase45.html
:icon_eek: Simply amazing Rick.
I don't think I could pack all that stuff so nicely and neatly into a box three times it's size.
The outside looks great too!
Outstanding 8)
hmm im looking through your layout and i think i have found a mistake you hav made. rick, there are no tubes!!!!!
all kidding aside though awesome build, i might just have to get my feet wet in the phaser world with this :icon_mrgreen:
Where do you get that ribbon wire?
Quote from: Taylor on May 23, 2009, 01:58:30 PM
Where do you get that ribbon wire?
Ebay, search for 'rainbow ribbon cable'. I wouldn't build without it.
Quote from: frequencycentral on May 23, 2009, 02:03:02 PM
Quote from: Taylor on May 23, 2009, 01:58:30 PM
Where do you get that ribbon wire?
Ebay, search for 'rainbow ribbon cable'. I wouldn't build without it.
Not a pretty but another option is to use strips of cable taken from a hard drive / floppy drive cable, that's what I use.
Now...what everyone wants...clips?
This thing looks might tasty, and might be perfect for my needs!
Quote from: azrael on May 24, 2009, 02:51:43 PM
Now...what everyone wants...clips?
This thing looks might tasty, and might be perfect for my needs!
Ok, later this week!
Cool, I'm looking forward to it. I find the Phase 90 too phasy, but still have reservations about the 45.
That said, I own a fulltone deja-vibe. :D
One can never have too many pedals, though, haha. ;)
Quote from: azrael on May 24, 2009, 09:52:58 PM
Cool, I'm looking forward to it. I find the Phase 90 too phasy, but still have reservations about the 45.
That said, I own a fulltone deja-vibe. :D
One can never have too many pedals, though, haha. ;)
Too phasey - is there such a thing? I found the stock 45 far too subtle though. I'm on a phase odyssey ATM, I'm just doing a perf layout for R.G's Phase 180 Plus (http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/p180plus.gif), using LM324 quad opamps to keep it managable, though matching 8 FETs will be a giggle. Planning to do an 8 stage Ross too. You're right, you can't have too many pedals, I have half a dozen dirt boxes, so why not do a few phasers............
Haha. Maybe too phasey is the wrong phrase? Dunno, the Phase 90 just wasn't for me.
Man, I've been more active on DIYSB, and I gotta say, builders like you are killing me, haha. I have this unnatural urge to build lots of stompboxes now...The Vibracaster, DLS clone, new phaser, etc...Good stuff!
Looks very nice, I'm a Badstone man myself :icon_cool:
^Haha, actually, that was the other phaser build I was looking at doing. Did quite a bit of reading on it, found the layout at topopcione that you (I believe?) and some other users contributed to.
Looked like quite an undertaking!
Also, the manual feature of the Bad Stone reminded me of the Deluxe Electric Mistress's manual mode. Pretty neat!
I am also not sure how a person could find something "too phasey", but I do understand where a person might want a subtler sweep since the P90 has no depth/width control as a standard feature. If you stick a 500k pot in series with the 1M fixed resistor feeding the gates of the FETs you can tone down the sweep to something approaching agentler shimmer or undulation. You may even want to make that a 1M pot instead of 500k (haven't tried that value yet).
Note that the net effect of the added resistance is to constrain how high up the sweep goes. It has no effect on the low end of the sweep. Stated another way, it does not reposition the sweep to a different range, but simply limits the maximum amplitude/width of the sweep from its initial starting point.
Just a point worth mentioning in passing. The P45 appears to have the resistor/cap network between drain and gate which is supposed to reduce distortion of the FETs by transient peaks. http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~houshu/synth/PhaseFet0205.GIF
Quote from: Mark Hammer on May 25, 2009, 08:41:51 AM
I am also not sure how a person could find something "too phasey", but I do understand where a person might want a subtler sweep since the P90 has no depth/width control as a standard feature. If you stick a 500k pot in series with the 1M fixed resistor feeding the gates of the FETs you can tone down the sweep to something approaching agentler shimmer or undulation. You may even want to make that a 1M pot instead of 500k (haven't tried that value yet).
Note that the net effect of the added resistance is to constrain how high up the sweep goes. It has no effect on the low end of the sweep. Stated another way, it does not reposition the sweep to a different range, but simply limits the maximum amplitude/width of the sweep from its initial starting point.
Well worth looking at R.G's Phase 180 Plus (http://www.geofex.com/FX_images/p180plus.gif) for implementation of this idea, ie the 'Width' pot.
I'd still recommend inserting a fixed resistor in series with that pot if you want the full rotation of the pot to be of use. All well and good to have that sucker sweep waaaaaaaayyyyyy up high, but a notch or 2 or 3 well above the range of the instrument or speaker is a notch unheard.
Usually I feel lazy after seeing a thread like this, but I have 2300 boards shipping in from China sometime this week :D.
Here's to hoping that all of the boards artwork is correct!
Ohhh where are the sound clips? ;D
Quote from: Cliff Schecht on May 26, 2009, 02:40:45 AM
Usually I feel lazy after seeing a thread like this, but I have 2300 boards shipping in from China sometime this week :D.
Here's to hoping that all of the boards artwork is correct!
You don't do a two-board prototype build on new artwork?? :icon_eek:
Quote from: mth5044 on July 10, 2009, 04:59:47 PM
Ohhh where are the sound clips? ;D
Ah! I didn't get around to that, I'll add some soon!
Quote from: R.G. on July 10, 2009, 06:30:50 PM
Quote from: Cliff Schecht on May 26, 2009, 02:40:45 AM
Usually I feel lazy after seeing a thread like this, but I have 2300 boards shipping in from China sometime this week :D.
Here's to hoping that all of the boards artwork is correct!
You don't do a two-board prototype build on new artwork?? :icon_eek:
Is a compliment?
Quote from: frequencycentral on July 10, 2009, 06:51:59 PM
Quote from: R.G. on July 10, 2009, 06:30:50 PM
Quote from: Cliff Schecht on May 26, 2009, 02:40:45 AM
Usually I feel lazy after seeing a thread like this, but I have 2300 boards shipping in from China sometime this week :D.
Here's to hoping that all of the boards artwork is correct!
You don't do a two-board prototype build on new artwork?? :icon_eek:
Is a compliment?
I don't think he's talking about your phaser, I think he means that it's a good idea that, whenever you're doing PCB artwork for a huge run of boards, it's a good idea to get just a couple of boards made first, to build. This way you can be sure there's no tiny (or huge) screwup somewhere in the layout, so you're not sitting on 2300 boards that can't be used or sold. I guess 2 just to make sure the first one's not a fluke?
Ah, ok, I understand now! :icon_redface:
Clips??
Quote from: R.G. on July 10, 2009, 06:30:50 PM
Quote from: Cliff Schecht on May 26, 2009, 02:40:45 AM
Usually I feel lazy after seeing a thread like this, but I have 2300 boards shipping in from China sometime this week :D.
Here's to hoping that all of the boards artwork is correct!
You don't do a two-board prototype build on new artwork?? :icon_eek:
No traces or parts were modified, just a few silkscreen tweaks. I checked the boards extensively with multiple gerber viewers. Not the same as holding physical evidence in your hand but gives one a good idea of what the silkscreens will look like. Plus it was 12 different boards, not 2300 of the same thing!
Quote from: Cliff Schecht on August 02, 2009, 03:20:13 AM
No traces or parts were modified, just a few silkscreen tweaks. I checked the boards extensively with multiple gerber viewers. Not the same as holding physical evidence in your hand but gives one a good idea of what the silkscreens will look like. Plus it was 12 different boards, not 2300 of the same thing!
OK, my faith in you is much restored. :icon_biggrin:
My experience is that Mother Nature is much better at remembering picky rules of what has to be perfect than I am. :icon_lol: If it's just silkscreen changes, that makes perfect sense. My own rule is (a) never, never commit to PCB something you haven't prototyped in perf or plugboard and (b) never, never commit production quantities until you have tested a short-run proto of the actual (copper) artwork.
The worst nightmare I ever had as an engineer is the idea that something I'd overlooked would let the protos and test victim units work OK, but would fail after a few days in the customer's hands. There is not a good resolution to that scenario.
Clips??
remind me to never show you the insides of my projects ;D
Quote from: Top Top on August 05, 2009, 08:37:59 PM
remind me to never show you the insides of my projects ;D
this is my thought. my bass fuzz is a jumble mess of wires to the pots switches and jacks i se that and my jaw hits the floor. i'm new to this and all, but i'm pretty sure i'll never get to designing a second part of a phaser.
your work is amazing dude
Quote from: frequencycentral on August 05, 2009, 07:22:54 PM
Quote from: El Heisenberg on August 01, 2009, 07:39:35 PM
Clips??
Quote from: El Heisenberg on August 05, 2009, 07:21:12 PM
Clips??
Did someone want clips? OK, tomorrow. I promise.
lol thabks. Im waiting on parts for a phase 45 and am interested in doing this. And now that i know wuts possible with perf populating ill have ta push myself to go smaller and smaller. I thought i was pretty good! I build point to point alot.
Aw man no sounds :(
i need to match the transistors. Im not sure how to do this. But i only have 4 anyway :-\
For my regular phase 45. I will get around to adding the other stages later. I cant hope to build it that tightly and clean.
JFET matching fixture: http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folders/fetmatch/fetmatch.gif
I haven't forgotten about soundclips - it's just finding time.
Yea i was looking at that earlier. There was also somethibg on runoffgroove in the fetzer valve article, but i only have 4 2n5957s anyway.
Anyone notice that on the jc mallet schem, it shows a diagram of the pinout for the dual op amp and it is totally wrong???
Quote from: El Heisenberg on August 11, 2009, 12:40:22 PM
Yea i was looking at that earlier. There was also somethibg on runoffgroove in the fetzer valve article, but i only have 4 2n5957s anyway.
I've read that some folks don't bother matching - so you might be lucky. I personally find that matching is fun.
Quote from: El Heisenberg on August 11, 2009, 12:40:22 PM
Anyone notice that on the jc mallet schem, it shows a diagram of the pinout for the dual op amp and it is totally wrong???
Yeah, he's reversed the +ve with the output. I never noticed that before. I tend to have pinouts for opamps (and tubes) permanently written to my inbuilt organic hard disk anyway, so didn't even look at JC's pinout. Suffice to say, the pinouts in my layout are correct.
Ugh, the phase 45 always gives me problems. This is the third time ive ever breadboarded it and this is the closest ive gotten to get it workin. Only a few tiny substitutions for resistors. But the volume is way low. Unusable. A boost in front will make the signal loud enough, but theres no phase effect. Bwah! Nothing else does this to me! Ive built bigger crazier circuits than this. But i cant even get it rite on the breadboard!
With four fets will it be much more crucial to match them alm thab if i just used two??
i rebuilt the Normal phase 45 On the breadboard, got the same problem. Low output. Phase works fine.
Matching is important to get a balanced phasing sweep--I'm not sure that the mismatch would cause your volume problem. It's debug time!
I only have 4 :(
Out of .01 caps too. :(
so poor
Which resistors did you sub with different values? It's important that all the 10K are 10K for example.
Alrite i got it workin! I think my breadboard is messed up.
Only thing i did dufferent from original phase 45 schen (without mods) was the led. I used two 4k7 resistors.
Now to put together the two extra stages...
I substituted the 3M9 resistor with a 3M3. Only thhing else i have is 4M7 and 1M. Used two 8k2s for the 4k1 resistor. Besides that, its all according to the schem. Three tlo72s and 4 2n5952s.
I went ahead and breadboarded the extra phase stages. I think that theres less phasing because the fets arent matched. Might be my imagination. It works tho. Im not sure about the blinking LED. Is the resistor supposed to be 24k or 2.4k?? I think it has an effect ob the phasing when i switch them out. Maybe my imagnation again. Guess i gotra go to radioshack and stuff all the fets they have ib my pocket! No way im paying 3 bucks for one j201 or mpf102.
Also it seems to act weird with voltage. I use rechargable batteries so they run out a little fast. When it was the original phase 45, the phasing stopped at like 6 volts. When i put the extra stages in, it stopped working at like 8.5! Maybw its my batteries. I then tried a duracell and it worked great.
dude, order some from the store--you get a whole crapload of 'em.
If i could i would. I know about the internet! You need a credit card or a bank account.
Quote from: El Heisenberg on August 14, 2009, 07:03:48 PM
I substituted the 3M9 resistor with a 3M3.
That 3M9 is pretty important - have you a 560K or a 680K that you can put in series with the 3M3?
Quote from: El Heisenberg on August 14, 2009, 07:12:16 PM
If i could i would. I know about the internet! You need a credit card or a bank account.
that is surely incorrect. i have used SBE many a times. paypal the first. then switched to postal money orders. i do the sam for trading. a little riskier than paypal but i have no B/A so the post office is my friend. its $1.10 per money order. i suggest doing $50+ orders from a business.
But i got no money either lol!
Why is the 3M9 so important? I already triwd putting a 470k in series with it (its all i got) and it didnt sound like it did much.
The 3M9 sits between the LFO and the FET VCRs. It's value defines how 'high up' the phasing goes. A lower value than 3M9 will mean that all the good stuff is still happening, but at frequencies above your hearing range. You pet bat will adore it however.
ugh, ok, ill try the 3m3 with 470k and 150k in series.
Could u clear up the led thing for me? Im not sure what the rwsistor is supposed to be. 24k or 2k4? It looks like 24k but the led is really dim. Does this affect the sound much?
I didn't bother with the flashing LED, as I'm wary of flashing LEDs causing audible ticking as they draw current when turning on and off. Besides, who needs to 'see' the speed of the LFO when you can hear it?But the resistor value is certainly more likely to be 2K4. The flashing LED really is optional, and wasn't included in the original MXR P45. It won't affect the sound in any way, apart from if you do hear ticking, the LED turning on and off is likely to be the culprit.
I used a 4.7 zener diode but i only measure 3.7 on the negative end of the diode. Is it an error in the circuit or wut? I got it from "the shack", package said 4.7! Ive seen schems that say 4.7 some say 5.1.
Sorry about all the questions, i appreciate ur help. But can i use MPF102s for the FETS? Irs all they got at radioshack now. Guess they stopped carrying J201s.
Quote from: El Heisenberg on August 15, 2009, 09:46:32 AM
I used a 4.7 zener diode but i only measure 3.7 on the negative end of the diode. Is it an error in the circuit or wut? I got it from "the shack", package said 4.7! Ive seen schems that say 4.7 some say 5.1.
Yes I've seen schematics with 4.7v and 5.1v too. Your measurement of 3.7 volts is fine, as the zener in combination with the 10K resistor right above it form a quite stable voltage divider. Don't expect it to read the same voltage as the zener you use - it won't.
I don't think MPF102s would be a suitable sub for the 2n5458s, as the MPF102s Vgs would appear to -8v, and the circuit is probably looking for -0.8v.
Worthwhile reading: http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/fetmatch/fetmatch.htm
A quick montage of clip, nothing special, just a bit of noodling with a few different settings, the dirt pedal at the start is ny very own Promiscuous Girlfriend:
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/967492/Phase%20Evolution.mp3
Signal path:
Squier Telecaster Custom (bridge humbucker) >>> Promiscuous Girlfriend (just on the dirty bits) >>> Phase Evolution >>> Shure SM58 >>> >>> Event Gina 24 Soundcard >>> Wavelab
Gents, need some help here...built the normal version using the layout below. The sound goes thru the circuit (no sound if battery disconnected) but got no phasing. Tried several j201 and 5457. not matched, but some phasing should occour, or luck and several tries could lead me to one almost matched pair.
Anyway, I got unaffected sound even with NO trannies in their sockets.
Got some clues?! I can post voltages if needed. Please help me phase!!! :icon_frown:
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/Phase45.gif)
Ok, a few things before we get onto voltages. Did you remember to add R23 on the copper side of the board, and are you sure it's in the right location? Does the LFO appear to be working? To test it hook up your DMM to one side or the other of R22, you should measure a moving-up-and down voltage (!). You could even hook up a LED to the LFO as per J.C.'s schematic, to assure yourself that the LFO is working. You could also try wiggling the bias control manually, as this would imitate the action of the LFO. With only 2 FETs in the normal version, the matching would be even more critical, so try matching your FETs using the FET matcher at GEOFEX. With my (4 stage) version I find the deepest phase is with the bias at the mid point and the mix control at 2 o'clock. I find the best way to test phasers is with a nice fat distorted guitar sound - it gives those notches something to eat away at, it'd sound much more subtle with a clean guitar. OR maybe, like me, you're finding 2 stages is just too subtle - I rememeber when I first built the 2 stage version I thought it didn't work when I first hooked it up, but a little knob tweaking just proved to me that it did work but it was very subtle.
Quote from: perfboyfromhell
Did you remember to add R23 on the copper side of the board, and are you sure it's in the right location?
Not on the copper side, but it is as it should be, one leg at IC1 pin7 and the other at IC2 pin2 with R11
Quote
Does the LFO appear to be working? To test it hook up your DMM to one side or the other of R22, you should measure a moving-up-and down voltage (!). You could even hook up a LED to the LFO as per J.C.'s schematic, to assure yourself that the LFO is working.
Put a LED's legs between R19/R20 and ground (it should be correct following the schem) but no, I got it always lit.
thx for replying Rick!
Quote from: Valvy Junkie
Put a LED's legs between R19/R20 and ground (it should be correct following the schem) but no, I got it always lit.
As this is an unbuffered LFO, a LED without a series resistor may be loading down the LFO enough to stop it oscillating (maybe ?). Try adding a resistor.
Did you try waggling the bias pot? Let your fingers be the LFO, if the LFO isn't working you'll still get phasing by wiggling the bias pot. ;)
Quote from: perfboyfromhell
:icon_mrgreen:
:icon_lol:
ok I'll try! THX for now...goin' out to see a gary moore tribute band!
NEWS on this one after a week...
It appears (to me at least) that the bias pot is quite useless!!! I got no phasing as I didn't play around with it too much...
It seems to have a sweet pot at about 9/10, either than that I cannot hear any difference turning that pot down or to 10/10.
Also the mix pot is not that great to my ears, yes you can hear some slight differences here, but the deepest depth (sorry) I can have is on 9/10. turning it down cuts it someway and no dramatic phasing on 10/10.
I thank Rick for his layout (still I HATE perf!!! Now more than ever, that was challenging for me!!!) and didn't find it that subtile, but my next one will be a standard one with the univibe mod only (the only addon I find useful!)
And yes, that Gary Moore tribute band has been GREAT!!! Been there with a close friend for a good chat, have a couple of Desperados with that band nailing those classics!!!
EDIT - I was looking at the original unmodified schem and the schem with mods, both by Justin Philpott - I see that the bias part is almost the same, with a 250k trimmer subbed with a 100k pot. But those 2 47k res on lugs 1 and 3 aren't in the original schem - what if I replace those 2 res with jumpers?!
Heres is a version of the Phase Evolution with mods on the coupling caps alla Univibe
0.015uF
0.22uF
470pF
0.0047uF
in the video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZem8BVMe40 ) i found I have to play more with the trimmer to make it a deeper phasing efect, but sounds pretty awesome with mi KETCHUP Overdrive
My 45 is officially done. It has the standard pot, replaced the bias pot with a 100k trimmer and took away the mix pot.
When the trimmer is in the right position, it has a good depth!!! Not so subtle...
I left the univibe switch, very good mod.
I'm gunna have to revisit this when i get enough FETs and put in the univibe mods.
The one I built a while back wasn't FET matched and the phasing is unbalanced or something. It sounds best with a distortion before it. Plus this was a while back and the biggest perf project I'd ever done to that point. I went through a big dark and hectic few days trying to figure out what was wrong with it, resoldering joints and checkin a rechecking the schem. I had put the freakinh zener diode in backwards and since it was verticle I guess I couldn't recognize it fast enough. Dammit. Now that I look at it again, If I just had the matched FETs Id do this again no sweat.
Quote from: richon on May 11, 2010, 07:29:16 PM
Heres is a version of the Phase Evolution with mods on the coupling caps alla Univibe
0.015uF
0.22uF
470pF
0.0047uF
in the video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZem8BVMe40 ) i found I have to play more with the trimmer to make it a deeper phasing efect, but sounds pretty awesome with mi KETCHUP Overdrive
now with another mods (taken from some post and thoughts of JC Maillet): the eight 10K resistors (two for each JFET) where changed for eight 100K resistors: check the new vibey sound http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iz4tiCmsY
Hi Rick.
After successfully building your "Little Angel" and "Casuality 4," I'm movin on to the "Phase Evolution."
One quick question: on the schematic for the daughter board you have two 9v inputs to the dual opamp. Should one of those be a ground?
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/2stagedaughterboardschematic.gif)
Thanks so much for putting together such great projects! I was originally intimidated by phasers but somehow your circuits have given me confidence that I can build anything if I put my mind to it. :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: Pakaloabob on November 15, 2010, 08:09:26 AM
One quick question: on the schematic for the daughter board you have two 9v inputs to the dual opamp. Should one of those be a ground?
Yes, one should be to ground. My mistake, a copy-and-paste error.
Quote from: Pakaloabob on November 15, 2010, 08:09:26 AM
Thanks so much for putting together such great projects! I was originally intimidated by phasers but somehow your circuits have given me confidence that I can build anything if I put my mind to it. :icon_biggrin:
That's really nice. The P45 is a good place to start. Being so simple everything is clear.
Ok. Got the regular Phase 45 circuit on the breadboard with the JC Maillet mods and it sounds mighty fine to me :icon_smile:
Haven't added in the extra stages yet, but I will try that tonight if I get time.
Out of 10 FETs, I was able to match a couple of pairs. The ones I used were 1.478v and 1.488v. I have a set of four that are somewhat close: 1.640,1.698, 1.726, and 1.751v. I hope these are matched close enough to use with the 2 added stages. If not, I have ordered a set of four matched ones from Barry.
Anyway, the "vibe caps" are great and I really like the mix option. I like the idea of the bias pot, but I am worried about the functional range. I haven't measured the exact resistance, but the range on my 250k trimpot is verysmall. I think the 100k pot with 2 47k resistors will be more range than I need/want.
I would love to hear what anyone else has used for their bias pot. I will do some experimenting tonight, but it would be nice to know what others have used.
Just to follow up, here's where I'm at with this project:
I tried out my supposed quad set of FETs with mixed results. As far as I could tell, the ones with Vgs of 1.640 and 1.698 (3.5% difference) did not phase as well as my original ones (<1%). The 1.726 and 1.751 (1.4%) were a better, but I think the original ones were easier to bias.
The GEOFEX article only says "To make matched sets, pick devices that are within a few percent of the same Vgs." It seems from my experience that Vgs matching should ideally be within 1%, but definitely less than 3%.
When I put together the 2 extra stages on breadboard I got a much deeper effect , as expected. However, the total difference between these four FETs varies up to 6.8%. I believe when I get a properly matched quad set I will be even more impressed.
I tinkered with the bias pot as well, but have not really gotten satisfying results. With the recommended 100k pot and 47k resistors I got most of the useable range in the first 10-20 percent of the pot. Most of the rest of the rotation did nothing. In order to center the bias, I found that a 50k pot with 122k (100k + 22k resistors) on one side and 33k on the other to be pretty close to the feel I was looking for. I did try several other combinations, but this was the closest I could come. Still not very useable in my opinion. My hope was that I could have a small range in the "sweet spot" of the bias and be able to tweak within that range. So far it hasn't worked out and I may decide to omit the bias pot.
The only other thing to consider is the resistor from the speed pot wiper. I think stock is 7k5, but the common mod seems to be 4k1. I am using 4k7 which should still be faster than original, but I am not sure how much of a difference it makes. I don't really care for the super fast speed anyway, except in vibrato mode.
All in all I am very happy with this project. I am glad I decided to go beyond the stock circuit. "Vibe" cap switch is a must and the mix pot is pretty essential as well. If I could figure out how to switch the added stages in and out I might consider that as well so I would still be able to hear the original Phase 45 sound.
In the next couple of days I will probably commit this to a PCB. I already have etched and drilled one from the Tonepad layout. I'll add wires to add the extra stages, maybe using FC's addon board.
There should be a couple of ways to switch between 2 and 4 stages. The easiest would be to tap off the output from an earlier stage, using a switch to select either 2 or 4 stages. here's a schematic to illustrate what a so-called Phase Evolution looks like, including the 2/4 stages switch:
(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/frequencycentral/JCphase45modded2.gif)
Brilliant! Much simpler than I thought it would be.
A complete 4 stage schematic, plus the pinout of the dual opamp has been corrected. Nice work FC! You've been such a great help ;D
you will made a layout with PCB please!!!!
Nice!!
Last night I started populating the Phase 45 PCB from Tonepad.com. I was looking for places on the board to tap into the LFO and Vref for extra stages - Voila! :o In the upper right hand corner there is a large pad where the Vref trace curves around a .01 uf cap. Another large pad to the right of the 3M9 resistor for the LFO. Just drill 2 little holes and wires can be soldered in place.
Since I plan on using the mix pot mod, I have left out the two 10k resistors that lead from pin 7 of the two opamps. Pin 7 of IC2 will have a wire leading from the red dot to the input of the extra stages board. The output of the extra stages board will go to lug 3 of the mix pot. Lug 1 of the mix pot will go to the green dot, and lug 2 the yelllow dot.
In order to insert a switch to select 2/4 stages, lug 3 of the mix pot would be connected to the center of a SPDT toggle switch instead of the output of the 4th stage. The outer 2 lugs of the switch will be attached to the output of stage 2 or stage 4.
I didn't get a chance to try this out yet so it is NOT VERIFIED. I won't have time to try it out until saturday.
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=44011&g2_serialNumber=6)
@bob, i built this version of the phase 45, i made sure i matched the fets etc..but it is very very weak on actual phasing...
i tried various trannies but its still weak..
any ideas on this?..
i ended up building the ggg version...with no problems... an phases great.
but i would like to get this one going too...rob.
I finally got my Tonepad Phase 45 PCB circuit working. I had a little bit of troubleshooting because of a sketchy trace between the speed pot and 4k7 resistor (7k5 stock).
I am happy to report that the wiring from my diagram works as planned for adding extra stages.
I am in the process of designing a perfboard layout for the extra stages plus spots for the stock/vibe caps and the 2/4 stages switch.
@Rob H.
I wasn't sure if you meant this version, as in the tonepad PCB or FC's phase evolution perf layout.
I myself am very new to building phasers. My only other experience was Causality 4 (great circuit :icon_biggrin:).
If you built the GGG Phase 45 successfully, I guess you know what it is supposed to sound like and that it is not an in-your-face type of effect.
Did you use the same kind of FETs for both versions? I have read that some FETs do not work as well as the Fairchild 2N5952 that I used. I also found that I had to match the FETs very closely to get a good efffect. I believe that even a 3 percent difference will make it hard to dial in the bias properly. Did you try swapping the FETs you matched from one version to the other?
I also think the pinout for the FETs and the ICs are reversed between Tonepad and GGG versions. You'll see the notches of the ICs are together in the Tonepad PCB, but at opposite ends in the GGG version
I find the bias range is a bit touchy, but again, if you have built one version of the Phase 45 circuit you will know that.
By the way, did you do any of the mods? I really like the vibe caps and mix pot. The extra stages really spices up the phasing too.
Quote from: Pakaloabob on November 20, 2010, 11:05:55 PM
I finally got my Tonepad Phase 45 PCB circuit working. I had a little bit of troubleshooting because of a sketchy trace between the speed pot and 4k7 resistor (7k5 stock).
I am happy to report that the wiring from my diagram works as planned for adding extra stages.
I am in the process of designing a perfboard layout for the extra stages plus spots for the stock/vibe caps and the 2/4 stages switch.
@Rob H.
I wasn't sure if you meant this version, as in the tonepad PCB or FC's phase evolution perf layout.
I myself am very new to building phasers. My only other experience was Causality 4 (great circuit :icon_biggrin:).
If you built the GGG Phase 45 successfully, I guess you know what it is supposed to sound like and that it is not an in-your-face type of effect.
Did you use the same kind of FETs for both versions? I have read that some FETs do not work as well as the Fairchild 2N5952 that I used. I also found that I had to match the FETs very closely to get a good efffect. I believe that even a 3 percent difference will make it hard to dial in the bias properly. Did you try swapping the FETs you matched from one version to the other?
I also think the pinout for the FETs and the ICs are reversed between Tonepad and GGG versions. You'll see the notches of the ICs are together in the Tonepad PCB, but at opposite ends in the GGG version
I find the bias range is a bit touchy, but again, if you have built one version of the Phase 45 circuit you will know that.
By the way, did you do any of the mods? I really like the vibe caps and mix pot. The extra stages really spices up the phasing too.
yep i meant the one above, not ricks one (which always sound superb).
it is very weak indeed, i sold my other one so i couldnt nick the fets out to try it..
i wasnt after a deep phase anyway,but just a bit more than this has...
but i may have to bite the bullet and build a proper kick ass rick phaser...and be done with it. :) cheers rob.
When working on my breadboard build I used JC Maillet's schematic and Rick's layout which have the Source going to Vref. I then noticed that the Tonepad layout has the Drain of the FETs going to Vref. Is this possible because the FETs are acting as variable resistance elements controlled by the Gate voltage?
Quote from: Pakaloabob on November 22, 2010, 08:05:45 AM
When working on my breadboard build I used JC Maillet's schematic and Rick's layout which have the Source going to Vref. I then noticed that the Tonepad layout has the Drain of the FETs going to Vref. Is this possible because the FETs are acting as variable resistance elements controlled by the Gate voltage?
Source and Drain are interchangeable in most applications (if I have my facts right), I don't think it would be that. You are correct that the FETs are acting as variable resistance elements controlled by the Gate voltage.
As I said in the first post of this thread:
Quote from: frequencycentral on May 23, 2009, 09:31:04 AM
After buiding and testing the main board I wasn't really happy with the quite subtle phasing.
....that was before I added the extra stages. TBH I can't remember back to exactly what it sounded like, it just wasn't what I was after. You got me thinking now maybe there's an error in my original layout - now I'll have to check it again to be sure. But then again, my FET's were not matched as closely as you're saying they need to be, so maybe it was that. Either way, I still adore my
Phase Evolution, despite it sitting right next to my
Sonic Death Ray.
EDIT: Another thing to try (which I didn't) with the 4 stage version is a Phase-90-Block-type fixed regen resistor. If you compare the above with a Phase 90 Block schematic, you'll easily see where to add it. As is, the 4 stage Phase Evolution is more akin to a Phase 90 Script but with less distortion, courtesy of the improved circuitry around the FETs.
Quote from: frequencycentral on November 22, 2010, 01:17:47 PM
TBH I can't remember back to exactly what it sounded like...
... that's exactly why I decided to add a switch for 2/4 stages. I definitely enjoy the deeper four-stage version, but it is nice to still have the option to hear the original circuit.
I was slightly concerned about the D-S orientation because I used the FC layout for my daughter board, but the Tonepad PCB for the main board which has the D-S junction reversed. I guess they must be interchangeable since it seems to work fine.
And just when I thought I had the circuit tweaked to my liking you suggest the regen. path! :icon_surprised:
Maybe I'll try out a pot for even more tweakablility, but I have read that there still needs to be some sort of fixed resistance in place to prevent self oscillation IIRC. The phase 90 regen. resistor is 22k. Maybe 10k pot with a 10k resistor as in Causality 4?
With FET phasers I find that 12K is really the minimum value you'd want for a regen resistor to avoid self-oscillation. So try a 12K with a 10K pot, bearing in mind that 22K of total resistance will still give you some regen, so if you want to be able to return to your pre-regen sound you'd want a higher value pot. 22K, or 47K even, whatever value you find gives the most pleasing range.
hi guys,
sorry to necro, but i've come across this and am curious to try the additional 2 phase stages because it doesn't seem to involve much mutilation of the original board.
have i got this right, and would it work for a switched version (see super-pro diagram)?
(http://i.imgur.com/xNaR1K7.png)
(original here: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-L2bL1ktlylg/UBaHQm0J0JI/AAAAAAAACDQ/22foalfFnOA/s1600/MXR+Phase+45.png (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-L2bL1ktlylg/UBaHQm0J0JI/AAAAAAAACDQ/22foalfFnOA/s1600/MXR+Phase+45.png))
the letters correspond to Rick's markings on the JC Maillet schematic earlier in the thread. if it helps, blue wires represent "inputs" to the switch, yellow is "bypassed" back to the board (ie. 2 stages), red is to daughterboard, grey is from daughterboard back to main board.
both "bypass" and daughter board output would converge at the same spots on the board (D and C) - could that be a problem? all i have are DPDT switches. i guess i'd need a 4PDT to rectify any issues?
my FETs aren't socketed, as i didn't really plan to build my Phase 45 but i've come to love it and it's part of my live rig. so i'm paranoid about replacing the original FETs (i don't wanna go without when i have shows coming up), and i can't remember the matched values i put in there lol (but it's one of a handful of possibilities), so it'll involve much testing. not to mention wasting cash on 10x 2n5952s that might not match.
cheers!
the daughter should wire in just like if you were doing a true bypass. which of course, you are. draw your circuit with 4 opamps instead of 2, draw the fets on the first and last stages, add the double pole switch after 1st/before 4th stage, link the 2 million 10k resistors, and that's it.
I refuse to read vero. and you made me follow a link to another vero.
noted, and my apologies! i somehow thought "oh, i'm only asking em to look at one part of vero" lol. i'll save you a 3rd episode with the daughterboard layout i did last night. if i just do a regular TB (the bypass, not tuberculosis) setup then i could maybe get a status LED in there too for ease of use.
thanks! will probably be a while before i try this, but i'm waiting on a new soldering iron & glue gun in the post so i'm over-compensating with the theoretical side of things.
you wanna join us overthinking the noise gate?
the "...Tonepad Revisited" thread? i built/regularly use one that's based on an amalgation of that and all the suggested fixes around the web, minus the momentary switch, not sure i'll have much to offer and i can't remember the circuit all that well but i'll have a read
Just wanted to thank you for the daughterboard layout. I just added it to my phase 45, and love it like that! I find that it doesn't quite sound like a phase 90, but more like a cross between 45 and 90, which I like. The ratio switch is subtle but worth it in my opinion. I already had installed a mix pot and a volume pot (full vibrato tends to be louder, that way I can still get unity gain).
Now thinking of a regen path, but in a 1590b enclosure it's gonna be tricky... :)
Thanks a lot for all the useful information!
Hi !
I m looking for cool mods & upgrades for a mxr phase 45 like.
I saw you made a 4 stage version :o :-* , it does interest me so so much but, if I understand how it should be done with a daughter board, I don't think I ll be able to do it all by mysaelf: to follow your exemple, I may need , your exemple !
...links of pictures and schematics don't work... :-\
Could someone publish them or send it to me ? ? ?
:icon_neutral: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHN6AViJAvI :icon_neutral: