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DIY Stompboxes => Building your own stompbox => Topic started by: Thomeeque on August 06, 2009, 06:57:44 AM

Title: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on August 06, 2009, 06:57:44 AM
 Hello!

 I'm helping to juancra with development of an MN3007 based daughter-board replacement of SAD1024 for markusw/gaussmarkov 9V Electric Mistress clone (http://gaussmarkov.net/wordpress/circuits/9v-electric-mistress/) - same concept as an original oldschoolanalog's A/DA Flanger retrofit with MN3007 (http://moosapotamus.net/IDEAS/ADAflanger/ADA_MN3007/ADAflanger_MN3007.html).

 Based on info extracted here and there (some of you may recognize fragments of their work, so thanks to all of you! :)) and on some of my previous expreriences (gained mostly on my TDA1022 based EM9V clone (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=74867.0)) I did came up with following daughter-board schemo:

 (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3007/em9v_sad_repl_v0_1.gif)

 Changes on (and connections to) the EM main-board (tonepad's schemo (http://www.tonepad.com/project.asp?id=54) used) would look like this:

 (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3007/em9v_sad_repl_v0_1_main.gif)

 (plus 47pF capacitor in the clock circuitry /between ground and pin 3 of LM311 comparator/ would be halved to 22pF to double base clock frequency).


 So, what you say? Do you see some catches?

 What I'm probably most scared about is doubling of the base clock generator frequency - will it still tick? Did somebody experimented with EM's clock circuitry this way, did somebody tried already to replace that 47pF cap by 22pF to double it's frequency?

 Any comments and thoughts are welcome!

 Thanks, T.

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: juancra on August 08, 2009, 09:25:00 PM
Hi tom!

I Think we were not so lucky with this post! Maybe we just go and build it and see what happens! I'll give it a try next thursday, after a final exam I must pass. Thanks a lot for all your hard work!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: juancra on August 08, 2009, 09:25:25 PM
Moderators, Please delete this post!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: bluesdevil on August 08, 2009, 09:31:46 PM
I just received a SAD1024 for an Electric Mistress build, but I also have a MN3007 handy... looking forward to your results!!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: quarara on August 16, 2009, 05:46:09 AM
it's incredible that this post was at third page with just a couple of replies!
guys, i'm looking forward for your results too, thanks for your work.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: mudmen on August 16, 2009, 07:26:32 AM
What about 18V Mistress? Will this mod fit this circuit too?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Auke Haarsma on August 16, 2009, 08:53:53 AM
Keep it up guys! I'll keep a close watch on this thread. Good stuff, very good stuff!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on August 16, 2009, 06:14:09 PM
What about 18V Mistress? Will this mod fit this circuit too?

 I'm not sure, which one is it exactly - could you post (link to) schematic here, please?

 Thanks, T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: WLS on August 17, 2009, 04:35:33 AM
Tom,

I think he is speaking of GGG's DEM. On his site it is referred to as a 18 Volt version running off a transformer with filterring. Their are other differences in the layout. Mostly from what I can tell it incorporates one more IC a TL-071 in the beginning of the signal path.

My thoughts on this is even if it might be a pin for pin swap AND WOULD NOT TRUST MY SKILL LEVEL TO DETERMINE THAT. The capacitors and restore values would have to change simply due to that the curcit is running in the 15 volt range instead of 9.


My two cents :)

Bill


Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on August 17, 2009, 08:47:43 AM
 OK, thanks guys for your interest - I did made just two small changes to original schematic (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3007/em9v_sad_repl_v0_1a.gif) (renamed to v1.0a now), schemo above should be now actualised (v0.1, 10.8.2009 - you may need to refresh this page to overrule your browser cache). 1st change is about separating of VCC for BBD part and clock buffer part (to allow bi-wiring or other approaches for better power filtering), 2nd is about R3 value set from 13k9 to 14k (it's the best value for this resistor and good suplier should have it in stock, it's E48 (http://www.logwell.com/tech/components/resistor_values.html) standard). I did created PCB layout based on this updated schemo, and juancra is about to verify it - right, Seb? How did exam go? ;)

 About GGG DEM: this retrofit should fit there nicely as well (MN3007 should even profit from those 15 volts there). No values have to be changed, only 15+ volts capacitors have to be used - connections would be:

GGG/DEMRetrofit
AVCCb
BVCCa
CCLK+ (or CLK-)
DCLK- (or CLK+)
IC3, pin 2 or 15  IN
IC3, pin 6 or 12  OUT
GNDGND

 Only change necessary on GGG board would be halving clock capacitor C17 and of course proper bias and gain adjustment (bias adjustment remains principially same, for gain adjustment divider made by R12 and R13 could be used*).

 Only change on retrofit board would be not loading of C3 (there's no LPF applied directly to SAD's output on GGG's DEM, so retrofit should not do it either).

 Anybody willing to try? :)

 T.

* if the unity gain (R12=min, R13=max) was not enough, lowering of R14 would allow to achieve required boost.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on August 17, 2009, 09:51:20 AM
 There's one thing I did overlooked about GGG's DEM: To be able to dial whole DC bias range stated by MN3007's d/s (5 to 10V) by bias adjust trimmer (R7), the R6 should be lowered to cca 5k (5k1). But it may not be necessary (original GGG's DEM range with R6=8k2 is approximately 0 to 8.24 volts, it may be sufficient for typical MN3007 chip..?).

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: kupervaser on August 17, 2009, 10:01:04 AM
Awesome, who will try this first?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on August 17, 2009, 10:24:31 AM
Awesome, who will try this first?
Hmm...
Who indeed?
 :icon_lol:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: mudmen on August 17, 2009, 10:27:06 AM
I think he is speaking of GGG's DEM. On his site it is referred to as a 18 Volt version running off a transformer with filterring. Their are other differences in the layout. Mostly from what I can tell it incorporates one more IC a TL-071 in the beginning of the signal path.

No, I thought about NON-DELUXE, 18V version. Here's how it looks:
http://www.pink-floyd.es/imagenes/sonido/ElectricMistress.jpg

And links to schematics:
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9172/18vmistressschmhr5.gif
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/5590/ehelectricmistressukhq5.jpg
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on August 17, 2009, 10:35:02 AM
 For the most impatient ones:

 PCB_v0_1_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3007/PCB_v0_1_1200DPI.png)
 PCB_v0_1_1200DPI_mirror.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3007/PCB_v0_1_1200DPI_mirror.png)
 PCB_v0_1_layout_1200DPI.png (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3007/PCB_v0_1_layout_1200DPI.png)

 ;)

 Good luck, T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on August 17, 2009, 11:00:48 AM
I think he is speaking of GGG's DEM. On his site it is referred to as a 18 Volt version running off a transformer with filterring. Their are other differences in the layout. Mostly from what I can tell it incorporates one more IC a TL-071 in the beginning of the signal path.

No, I thought about NON-DELUXE, 18V version. Here's how it looks:
http://www.pink-floyd.es/imagenes/sonido/ElectricMistress.jpg

And links to schematics:
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9172/18vmistressschmhr5.gif
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/5590/ehelectricmistressukhq5.jpg

 OK!

 From the BBD point-of-view it's almost identical as an 9V version, so same applies here as in original post - only thing to worry about is the DC bias adjust range (from 0 only to approx. 6.1-6.7V depending on version /black versus green values on 18vmistressschmhr5.gif (http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/9172/18vmistressschmhr5.gif)/), which maybe not sufficient. And it would be bit more complicated to extend this range here, since the bias adjust trimmer is part of voltage stabilizer circuitry..

 From the clock point-of-view it's question, how to double base frequency here - will halving of that 470pF cap do it? Somebody would have to try..

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on September 21, 2009, 12:16:50 PM
Awesome, who will try this first?
Here you go:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/oldschoolanalog/DSC01233.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/oldschoolanalog/DSC01234.jpg
Works/sounds great.
More later...
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: quarara on September 21, 2009, 01:14:02 PM
i miss the times in which there weren't projects for flangers... now i have to build them all...
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on September 21, 2009, 01:54:22 PM
Awesome, who will try this first?
Here you go:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/oldschoolanalog/DSC01233.jpg
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w121/oldschoolanalog/DSC01234.jpg
Works/sounds great.
More later...

 Ho hooo, good news everyone!

 (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/pic/goodnews.jpg)

 :icon_mrgreen:

 Nice, Dave, congrats and thanks for sharing!! :)

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on September 21, 2009, 08:04:20 PM
If anybody is interested in the changes done to make this work let me know.
If not, I won't waste my time posting info that is of no interest. :P
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Toney on September 21, 2009, 08:31:18 PM

 Hey oldschoolanalog...

 Looking great.
 I just found this thread and I am more than interested.
 I have had a drilled 9v EM board packed away for years - no SAD1024
So, yeah really appreciate what you have done here.  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: intripped on September 21, 2009, 08:49:59 PM
I'm interested too!!!!
this is my first post here on diystompboxes so I would like to thank everybody for the immense help you gave and are giving me on building my effects - a further strong passion beyond music: seems to be a fever...

back on topic: not going to build it right now, there are too many projects going on, but for sure i'll try and build it!!
...still debugging my ADA flanger clone... with poor results :'(

you're not wasting your time!
thanks again
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: cathexis on September 22, 2009, 01:40:57 AM
If anybody is interested in the changes done to make this work let me know.
If not, I won't waste my time posting info that is of no interest. :P

I'm interested, the EM drove me to the brink of murderous rage half a year ago. I had to hide my non-working boards, but I'm ready to take them out again.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: shadowmaster on September 22, 2009, 08:17:14 AM
No one gets enough from building guitar effects in this forum.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on September 22, 2009, 08:47:11 AM
Glad there's some interest. :icon_cool:
All the info on the way this afternoon ;)

PS: Be careful what you wish for. Tha guy behind the masonry (see sig) just wanted some Sherry...
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on September 23, 2009, 05:16:00 PM
OK, here goes. First the necessary disclaimer. The work & results presented here are what worked well for me, and sounded good to me. If there is a better way to do any of this please say something. I don't want a repeat of the A/DA/3007 "issues". I  am by no means an expert when it comes to this. I am learning as I go. There are folks much more qualified to do this work (you know who you are ;)). All I have going for me is a willingness to learn and to try to take on projects that are discussed but not tried out. 
I read/research/study/compare/test & test & test some more. Such is my method.
Diatribe over. ::)
Thanks...
See post below.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on September 23, 2009, 05:16:18 PM
Reference material:
9V EM PCB, schematic & layout: http://www.aronnelson.com/DIYFiles/up/9V_Mistress_project_file_v11_update.pdf
3007 retrofit board thread: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.0
Good reading:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=63044.0
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=34607.0
First, parts not used/installed:R23,R19,R11,R12,,D1,D2,C5,C9. Changes: new value & explanation in (parenthesis): R5(jumper), R17(47K, improved bias range), C19(10pf, This was done to raise the max clock f), R38(15K, As you raise the max clock f, the low f goes up w/it. This restored the low clock f), C14(Added 3n3 in parallel w/the existing 2n2 [5n5 total], the regen was way too "thin sounding". This "fattened" things up a bit), The clock trim pot was wired as in the DELUXE EM schem. This gave a wider clock range. I put 47R in series w/R29, at their junction a 22uF cap was connected to GND. Also, 100n PS bypass caps were installed at every IC (3007 board also). These 2 things are there to provide a measure of "insurance", so to speak. Also, I was running short on certain parts, so for the retrofit board I used 22uF caps for C1,2,4 and I used 47R for both R1&5. Hookup of the retrofit board is fairly obvious. See photos, a few posts back (If you want more details, just ask! :icon_cool:) Just remember to DOUBLE THE CLOCK f's WHEN SETTING THIS UP. Double the BBD stages; double the clock f. Please feel free to ask Q's. Also, as I mentioned earlier, if anybody sees a way that this can be improved upon or done better; or; if anything is obviously incorrect, please say something. I feel this works and sounds as good, if not better than the EM's I have heard/owned in the past. Now who will be the first to try this?
Have Fun!
Dave


Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: quarara on September 24, 2009, 08:11:56 AM
I  am by no means an expert when it comes to this.
this statement is clearly at odds with the huge amount of data you posted. ;)
great job!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on October 12, 2009, 01:06:24 PM
oldschoolanalog

Sorry about my small knowledge, but what do you mean with " DOUBLE THE CLOCK f's WHEN SETTING THIS UP. Double the BBD stages; double the clock f " ? I wired the 3007 board like yuor pictures but no efect appears, just clean sound. I left the zenner.
Thanks to all who worked in this project.

     Jorge
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on October 12, 2009, 03:32:12 PM
Hi Jorge,
First read the factory setup instructions posted here:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=67766.0
They are all a bit different, however where the factory notes spec a clock f of 20kHz or 35kHz (at pins 1 & 5 of the 4013). This is the setup f's for a 512 stage BBD. The 3007 is a 1024 stage BBD. To maintain the same delay one needs to double the clock f. Somewhere between 40kHz - 70kHz at pins 1 & 5 of the 4013. Experiment to see what sounds best to you.
If you have only clean sound, check the bias trim first. Let me know what happens.
I'll post more detailed hookup instructions later. Can you post a pic? That might help...
Dave
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on October 13, 2009, 08:32:54 AM
Hi Dave

Here a picture:
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1824/mistress.jpg

Now I understand the clock setup. Thank you for the answer. I´ll use a friend´s oscilloscope and try to set it.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: loss1234 on October 14, 2009, 08:38:51 AM
this looks great

however...seeing as how i am partial to mn3207's...does anyone know if this will work with the mn3207 using the changes that same changes that were put up by moosapotamus (Sp?) for the ADA flanger?

anxious to try it on the breadboard!

thanks

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on October 14, 2009, 09:36:45 AM
Here a picture:
http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/1824/mistress.jpg
From your pic it looks like R22(10k, by the output wire of the daughterboard) is not installed. Install it. I have that resistor soldered to the copper side of the board. That was done so the board could be installed taking up a minimum of height. Also; I can't see the component side of your daughterboard (my x-ray vision is not working today :D); but make sure you are getting power to VCCa & VCCb. They are independent of each other. So, assuming the yellow wire is IN and the green wire is OUT and the white wires are CLK(+)and (-); everything looks like it's installed OK.
Quote
Now I understand the clock setup. Thank you for the answer. I'll use a friend's oscilloscope and try to set it.
:icon_cool:
...does anyone know if this will work with the mn3207...
Only one way to find out... Give it a try!
There's no reason it shouldn't work (famous last words :icon_lol:)
Dave
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on October 14, 2009, 01:45:56 PM
Dave

You are right.  I forgot to instal R22, a mistake in checking the schematics.
Now the effect appears beautifully. Very good!!!
I´m sorry about your x-ray vision. I hope you fix it soon  :D   :D  :D

Thank you again and for all.

     Jorge
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on March 22, 2010, 08:50:26 PM
Hi

I'm going to have a crack at this - I'm just trying to all the info together as it seems to be scattered around a few places.  I've got two questions:

1) There are two different values proposed to replace C19 (47pF) in the clock circuitry.  Should it be changed to 22pF or 10pF?

  (plus 47pF capacitor in the clock circuitry /between ground and pin 3 of LM311 comparator/ would be halved to 22pF to double base clock frequency).

First, parts not used/installed:R23,R19,R11,R12,,D1,D2,C5,C9. Changes: new value & explanation in (parenthesis): R5(jumper), R17(47K, improved bias range), C19(10pf, This was done to raise the max clock f), R38(15K, As you raise the max clock f, the low f goes up w/it. This restored the low clock f), C14(Added 3n3 in parallel w/the existing 2n2 [5n5 total], the regen was way too "thin sounding". This "fattened" things up a bit), ...

2) Is there a complete schematic for the fill circuit with revisions?  If not I'll have a go at drawing one up.

Thanks

John
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on March 23, 2010, 12:17:17 AM
Start w/10pF. That's what worked for me.  You can always tack on other caps (in parallel) if you want to experiment w/larger values.
Complete schematic w/revs?
Not to my knowledge. I just went w/what Tomas posted at the start of this thread.
All the Best!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on March 23, 2010, 04:33:54 PM
Thanks Dave  :)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on March 26, 2010, 07:21:00 AM
I'm going to have a crack at this...

 Hi!

 What exactly do you plan to do? Complete build of original (SAD1024) version of EM9V (Markus W. layout?) + this retrofit? Or you have already SAD1024 version completed and you need only SAD1024 replacement?

 In the first case you may be interested in my EM3207 project. It looks like this at this moment:

(http://www.thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/DSCN9885_800.jpg) (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/DSCN9891_800.jpg)

 It is again original 9V EM adapted for use of MN3207 chip this time :), it is very close to the original, but it is slightly tweaked - besides inevitable clock circuitry adjustments (analogically to this retrofit) it's tweaked mainly to have unity gain (no volume drop compared to true-bypass) without need of additional amplification and there are few other minor changes (e.g. additional VCC filtering for LFO section to lower danger of LFO ticking leaking into the audio signal via supply track).

 As you can see from the pics, it's almost done but there's still some tweaking going on (it works, but it definitely needs some adjustments yet). I did few interesting findings in the process btw. (I'll get to them later here).

 I did interrupted my work on this at this state before four months approximately (I've switched myself to other build), but I may return to it soon again - so if you don't need exact 9V EM and if you have some patience, you may wait for my results.

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: quarara on March 26, 2010, 09:28:57 AM
flangers are blooming these days! Good to know! :)
Thomeeque, that board looks awesome!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: azrael on March 26, 2010, 11:53:13 AM
^^whoa! Eagerly awaiting your results. :)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on March 26, 2010, 05:19:09 PM
Wow that's nice... weirdly i've found MN3207 harder to come by and more expensive in the U.K but maybe that's just me.

Still that looks like an awesome project, i've been looking for a small flanger to build and that looks pretty tight to me.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on March 27, 2010, 04:40:30 AM
What exactly do you plan to do? Complete build of original (SAD1024) version of EM9V (Markus W. layout?) + this retrofit? Or you have already SAD1024 version completed and you need only SAD1024 replacement?

Hi Tomeeque.  I'm planning on doing the EM9V (Markus W. layout) + this retrofit.  Your new project looks very cool.  Looks like a nice compact layout.  I've already got most of the parts for the other build and John Lyons is in the process of making up the boards for me so I'll probably just go ahead with that for now.

Thanks to both you and Dave for your work on this so far.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on March 28, 2010, 03:34:45 PM
flangers are blooming these days! Good to know! :)
Thomeeque, that board looks awesome!
^^whoa! Eagerly awaiting your results. :)
Wow that's nice... weirdly i've found MN3207 harder to come by and more expensive in the U.K but maybe that's just me.

Still that looks like an awesome project, i've been looking for a small flanger to build and that looks pretty tight to me.

 Thank you guys for the compliments :) and for your interest! I'll keep you updated..

weirdly i've found MN3207 harder to come by and more expensive in the U.K but maybe that's just me.

 Oh, I hope so, I did pick MN3207 as the cheapest and the most widely available BBD chip, it would be bummer if it started to vanish.. :(

Hi Tomeeque.  I'm planning on doing the EM9V (Markus W. layout) + this retrofit.  Your new project looks very cool.  Looks like a nice compact layout.  I've already got most of the parts for the other build and John Lyons is in the process of making up the boards for me so I'll probably just go ahead with that for now.

Thanks to both you and Dave for your work on this so far.

 Sure, you're welcome :) Good luck and please let us know, when you're finished with the build - as this is still very "young" project (two builds so far?), every feedback is interesting!

 Btw. one request in advance (for every builder of this retrofit): when you'll get to measurements of the clock circuitry, note somewhere the highest clock frequency you've been able to dial (if you'll have chance to measure it of course) and let me/us know. AFAIK Dave was able to get slightly above 1MHz (1.08?) even when trying different parts, my EM3207 gets to 1.2MHz max. (again independently on used parts), maybe it's partly layout dependent..? It would be interesting to know..

 Cheers, T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on March 28, 2010, 03:47:45 PM

 Thank you guys for the compliments :) and for your interest! I'll keep you updated..

weirdly i've found MN3207 harder to come by and more expensive in the U.K but maybe that's just me.

 Oh, I hope so, I did pick MN3207 as the cheapest and the most widely available BBD chip, it would be bummer if it started to vanish.. :(
I look forward to your updates!  :)

Yeah, it's probably more available so it makes sense to pick the 3207 especially with the V3207 still being in production by Cool Audio & the BL3207.

It's more that on ebay I can pick up 5 MN3007s for Ł5-6 but for MN3207s it seems to be about Ł10 (and there are alot less of them) but alot of the 3007s are probably fakes etc. it's probably just a case of location, I can easily get 3207s from Smallbear anyway.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on March 29, 2010, 06:58:43 AM
Nice compact design Tomas :icon_cool:
...Dave was able to get slightly above 1MHz (1.08?) even when trying different parts, my EM3207 gets to 1.2MHz max. (again independently on used parts), maybe it's partly layout dependent..?
What value did you use for C19?  I used 10pF silver mica 1%. In the component layout pic the value shown is 47pF. I can't see the actual value of C19 on the board in your pic. If you used 10pF maybe the difference is in component tolerance(?).
FWIW/IMHO, a 1MHz clock is more than enough for this (EM) circuit. It was never intended to be clocked into A/DA territory.
What is needed is for somebody who owns an EH/EM (any flavour, 9V, "Deluxe", whatever) to step up and take some clock measurements. This is one commercial flanger I no longer have in my collection. If I had one I would have done this a long time ago. I've stepped up & opened up my A/DA, MXR, Ross, etc. to take readings for the sake of R&D. Time for somebody else to follow suit.
C'mon, somebody has to have an EH/EM; or access to one (friend, band member, whatever). Please?
@Tomas: Could you post a schematic "snippet" that shows the changes you made?
Thanks!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on March 29, 2010, 07:10:04 AM
Btw. one request in advance (for every builder of this retrofit): when you'll get to measurements of the clock circuitry, note somewhere the highest clock frequency you've been able to dial (if you'll have chance to measure it of course) and let me/us know. AFAIK Dave was able to get slightly above 1MHz (1.08?) even when trying different parts, my EM3207 gets to 1.2MHz max. (again independently on used parts), maybe it's partly layout dependent..? It would be interesting to know..

Will do.  [Patiently waiting for parts to arrive...]
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on March 30, 2010, 08:09:32 AM
Nice compact design Tomas :icon_cool:

 Thanks Dave! :)

...Dave was able to get slightly above 1MHz (1.08?) even when trying different parts, my EM3207 gets to 1.2MHz max. (again independently on used parts), maybe it's partly layout dependent..?
What value did you use for C19?  I used 10pF silver mica 1%. In the component layout pic the value shown is 47pF. I can't see the actual value of C19 on the board in your pic. If you used 10pF maybe the difference is in component tolerance(?).

 It's an ordinary 15pF ceramic disc now - but I've tried different 10 to 33pF caps (IIRC) with no influence at maximal possible clock achievable (even for 33pF I was able to dial 1.2MHz by clock trimmer - IIRC again, it's 4 months ::)).

==============================================
 I should probably state at this place that by working clock I mean whole clock generator circuitry up to BBD clock inputs working - LM311 stage is able to tick at higher frequencies, but 4013 is not able to process more than 1.2MHz (in my case - even when trying different 4013 brands/types) at outputs.
==============================================
 

FWIW/IMHO, a 1MHz clock is more than enough for this (EM) circuit. It was never intended to be clocked into A/DA territory.

 Yes, I agree (but some headroom for experiments would be nice, right? ;))

What is needed is for somebody who owns an EH/EM (any flavour, 9V, "Deluxe", whatever) to step up and take some clock measurements. This is one commercial flanger I no longer have in my collection. If I had one I would have done this a long time ago. I've stepped up & opened up my A/DA, MXR, Ross, etc. to take readings for the sake of R&D. Time for somebody else to follow suit.
C'mon, somebody has to have an EH/EM; or access to one (friend, band member, whatever). Please?

 Yes, please! :)

@Tomas: Could you post a schematic "snippet" that shows the changes you made?

 Anything you say, Dave! ;)

(http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/sch/EM3207_v1_0_diffs_1280.gif)

600DPI version for printing (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/sch/EM3207_v1_0_diffs_600DPI.png)

Thanks!

 You're welcome, thanks for feedback! T.


Btw. one request in advance ..

Will do.  [Patiently waiting for parts to arrive...]

 Thank you (in advance :))! T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: 12Bass on March 30, 2010, 09:27:29 AM
Great work!

Did you ever finish the schematic for the MN3007?  Suppose it could be drawn from the MN3207 version with a few changes....
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on March 31, 2010, 09:14:37 AM
Great work!

Did you ever finish the schematic for the MN3007?  Suppose it could be drawn from the MN3207 version with a few changes....

 Thanks!

 I did never start actually ;), but it would be really easy - switch R9 & R10 values and pins 1 & 5 of IC2 and you're there, at least theoretically - but please note, this schemo is not final (what I don't like for 100% yet is LPF filtering at BBD's output and dry/wet mix ratio), even the changes should be minor already.

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on April 10, 2010, 02:34:41 AM
While we're here... just thought i'd bring this thread back up http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=46157.0

Perhaps we could combine Thomeeques MN3207 Electric Mistress with that and have the first simple, available chips, cheap TZF flanger project  :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on April 14, 2010, 05:36:03 AM
The original project docs (http://www.aronnelson.com/DIYFiles/up/9V_Mistress_project_file_v11_update.pdf) don't seem to have a layout showing part references.  The values are shown but this makes it hard to identify parts on the schematic when there are 4 resistors with the same value.

I've retraced and redrawn the layout for the MN3007 retrofit which I think is correct.  I based the retrofit board connections on the photos from oldschoolanalog's build (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.msg653227#msg653227) since I haven't built this myself yet (not far away now though).

Can someone who has already built this please check what I've done and let me know if you see any mistakes: Electric Mistress MN3007 retrofit layout (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Just1More/layouts/Electric+Mistress+MN3007+Layout+v0-4.png.html) (click the image to see full size).  Hopefully this will make it a bit easier for others to pick up and run with.  I'll try to do an updated schematic soon as well.

Thanks
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on April 21, 2010, 08:26:13 PM
First thing: Hi everybody, this is my first post! I registered today, but if I started reading this forum a few years ago and I've learnt lots of things from you... :icon_biggrin:

to Just1More: I checked your layout and it seems ok to me, I just haven't found where you read about leaving out R20 & R21
    Then a question: why didn't you use oldschoolanalog's components values for the retrofit?

to Thomeeque: why don't you make a PCB layout for the 3207 retrofit?  ;)

     Thanks everyone  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on April 21, 2010, 09:19:13 PM
First thing: Hi everybody, this is my first post! I registered today, but if I started reading this forum a few years ago and I've learnt lots of things from you... :icon_biggrin:

to Just1More: I checked your layout and it seems ok to me, I just haven't found where you read about leaving out R20 & R21
    Then a question: why didn't you use oldschoolanalog's components values for the retrofit?
...

Hi DLC86.  Thanks for checking the layout and welcome to the forum.

Right back in the very first post Thomeeque shows a segment of the Tonepad schematic.  R20 (on Markus' schematic) is replaced with a jumper and R21 is left out entirely.  Oldschoolanalog has a good summary of other changed/deleted values in this post (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.msg653667#msg653667).

Why did I use oldschoolanalog's component values?  No real reason - as good a place to start as anywhere.  I haven't had the time to build this yet and I'm still waiting on some parts to arrive.  I might be able to comment further on the values once that's done.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on April 22, 2010, 05:32:56 AM
I've retraced and redrawn the layout for the MN3007 retrofit which I think is correct.  I based the retrofit board connections on the photos from oldschoolanalog's build (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.msg653227#msg653227) since I haven't built this myself yet (not far away now though).

Can someone who has already built this please check what I've done and let me know if you see any mistakes: Electric Mistress MN3007 retrofit layout (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Just1More/layouts/Electric+Mistress+MN3007+Layout+v0-4.png.html) (click the image to see full size).  Hopefully this will make it a bit easier for others to pick up and run with.  I'll try to do an updated schematic soon as well.

Thanks


 Hi John!

 Impressive work! :icon_exclaim: However I cannot check it properly (I did not build it ;)), I have just one small note - as I advice in the first post, I would not feed it from SAD socket - even Dave proved that it is nothing crucial actually, I would still advice to feed it this way (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/Electric Mistress MN3007 Layout v0-4-ThmqsNote.gif) as it should minimize risk of unwanted interferences between retrofit and rest of the circuit via feeding tracks.

 Good luck, T.

to Thomeeque: why don't you make a PCB layout for the 3207 retrofit?  ;)

 I've saved this task for *YOU* :icon_wink: T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on April 22, 2010, 06:40:12 AM
Hi John!

 Impressive work! :icon_exclaim: However I cannot check it properly (I did not build it ;)), I have just one small note - as I advice in the first post, I would not feed it from SAD socket - even Dave proved that it is nothing crucial actually, I would still advice to feed it this way (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/Electric Mistress MN3007 Layout v0-4-ThmqsNote.gif) as it should minimize risk of unwanted interferences between retrofit and rest of the circuit via feeding tracks.

 Good luck, T.

Thanks Tomas.  I'll factor in your suggestions as I eventually get around to building it.

Other than comparing the PCB layout against the schematic I can't take much credit.  I've collected a set of component libraries for Inkscape that have been contributed by other members at various times.  I'm pretty artistically challenged - but I'm ok at recycling and reusing stuff  ;)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: mongo on April 22, 2010, 07:26:16 AM

 I know this is maybe slightly off topic but I have a non working original EM, and before trying to make this mod I'd like to bring it back to life!

 just to be sure, what would be the proper Zener diode in this unit?  some schems I've seen call for a 1n961B, other call for something different. Please, Any advice?

 My EM is a non deluxe 18v unit.

 THANKS IN ADVANCE!

 Andy

 (sorry if I hijacked the thread, if anyone has any advice please respond in PM)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on April 22, 2010, 07:40:58 AM
Right back in the very first post Thomeeque shows a segment of the Tonepad schematic.  R20 (on Markus' schematic) is replaced with a jumper and R21 is left out entirely.  Oldschoolanalog has a good summary of other changed/deleted values in this post (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.msg653667#msg653667).

Oh, you're right, I din't see it
Now I'm gonna order parts for your layout and when it's done I'll let you know how it works, but I'd want to try the 3207

I've saved this task for *YOU* :icon_wink: T.

Ok, I'll try, but it's not a good idea, I'm not very expert...   :-[
The only differences between 3007 and 3027 are in the retrofit (R9, R10 and pins 1 & 5), right? Or will I have to change some components even in the main board?
Thanks
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on April 22, 2010, 08:09:28 AM
switch R9 & R10 values and pins 1 & 5 of IC2 and you're there, at least theoretically

Probably I'll do a stupid question but, why do you say to switch pins 1 and 5? I saw that 3207 and 3007 have the same pinout  ???
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on April 23, 2010, 05:12:01 AM
switch R9 & R10 values and pins 1 & 5 of IC2 and you're there, at least theoretically

Probably I'll do a stupid question but, why do you say to switch pins 1 and 5? I saw that 3207 and 3007 have the same pinout  ???

 If you want to use MN3207 instead of MN3007 (anywhere, not just here), you have to use it kind of upside-down. Pinout is same, basic internal circuitry is same as well, but where MN3007 uses P-channel FETs, MN3207 uses N-channel FETs. Check datasheets, you will see that where MN3007 expects negative voltage (VDD, VGG, VBIAS), MN3207 expects positive voltage (relative to chip's GND node).

 And here I see that I have forgot one important TODO for use of MN3007 in my EM3207:

switch R9 & R10 values and pins 1 & 5 of IC2 and hook R11 to VCC instead of GND and you're there, at least theoretically..

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on April 23, 2010, 09:59:54 AM
If you want to use MN3207 instead of MN3007 (anywhere, not just here), you have to use it kind of upside-down. Pinout is same, basic internal circuitry is same as well, but where MN3007 uses P-channel FETs, MN3207 uses N-channel FETs. Check datasheets, you will see that where MN3007 expects negative voltage (VDD, VGG, VBIAS), MN3207 expects positive voltage (relative to chip's GND node).

 And here I see that I have forgot one important TODO for use of MN3007 in my EM3207:

switch R9 & R10 values and pins 1 & 5 of IC2 and hook R11 to VCC instead of GND and you're there, at least theoretically..

 T.

Ok thanks.
I've done the layout following your instructions, but I just modified the 3007's one because I'm too lazy and ignorant to make a new layout.
Here are the PCB and the layout for MN3207 retrofit. Please check'em and let me know if they're ok  :P
http://img203.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207pc.jpg/ (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207pc.jpg/)
http://img220.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207lo.jpg/ (http://img220.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207lo.jpg/)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: papar0ni on April 29, 2010, 09:54:12 AM
hello everyone, this is my first post here in DIYstompboxes.
i would just like to ask if the circuit of 9V EM MN3007 replacement is verified?

does anyone of you successfully built it with MN3007/MN3207?
if yes, how does it sound? any reviews? news?

i'm very eager to build a flanger pedal, electric mistress is my 1st option, but sad to hear SAD1024 is no longer available.

thanks guys more power!
 :)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on April 29, 2010, 10:06:07 AM
hello everyone, this is my first post here in DIYstompboxes.
i would just like to ask if the circuit of 9V EM MN3007 replacement is verified?

does anyone of you successfully built it with MN3007/MN3207?
if yes, how does it sound? any reviews? news?

i'm very eager to build a flanger pedal, electric mistress is my 1st option, but sad to hear SAD1024 is no longer available.

thanks guys more power!
 :)

 Hi! Be so kind and read whole thread first, then ask..
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on April 29, 2010, 11:10:41 AM
I've done the layout following your instructions, but I just modified the 3007's one because I'm too lazy and ignorant to make a new layout.
Here are the PCB and the layout for MN3207 retrofit. Please check'em and let me know if they're ok  :P
http://img203.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207pc.jpg/ (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207pc.jpg/)
http://img220.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207lo.jpg/ (http://img220.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207lo.jpg/)

 I have checked layout picture and I'd say it's OK (good work with the graphic editor btw.!), just two small notes:

 - make somehow visible on the layout and the PCB, that it's not EM RF V0.1 to avoid further confusion with original MN3007 version (maybe just add N as N-channel to version number like V0.1N)
 - I have used same circuitry in my EM3207 and as I say above, I'm not 100% satisfied with the result yet - but you may be, it's really just a note ;)

 Good luck!

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on May 03, 2010, 10:35:13 AM
I have checked layout picture and I'd say it's OK (good work with the graphic editor btw.!), just two small notes:

 - make somehow visible on the layout and the PCB, that it's not EM RF V0.1 to avoid further confusion with original MN3007 version (maybe just add N as N-channel to version number like V0.1N)
 - I have used same circuitry in my EM3207 and as I say above, I'm not 100% satisfied with the result yet - but you may be, it's really just a note ;)

 Good luck!

 T.
Thanks for having checked. I followed your suggestion, here the renamed layout and PCB:
http://img689.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207pc.jpg/
http://img256.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207lo.jpg/
I remember they're for MN3207

About the satisfaction, I can only be happy because I've never owned an analog flanger, so I have nothing to compare it with. But if I'll have an issue or I'll try some different components I'll let you know, I'm going to build it next week.
Thank U again

Regards
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: shadowmaster on May 09, 2010, 11:29:37 AM
Here are some pics of my build.

(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/ryanogal/stompboxes/flanger/P5090675.jpg)

(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/ryanogal/stompboxes/flanger/P5090677.jpg)

(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/ryanogal/stompboxes/flanger/P5090678.jpg)

However I do have some questions.

Was this clone build designed to have it's knobs work in reverse? Full counter clockwise is max speed, max range and max feedback. Looking at gut shot pics of those who built it, I really think that such is the case.

During slow settings, I am hearing some thump (tik-tak). It's very noticeable and and I want to eliminate it. It happens at a slow to mid rate setting. On slower settings, I would hear a dry and wet signal that alternates and the thump seems to sound at the start and end of the wet signal (sweep). I'm guessing that the 4013 flip-flop is responsible for this. Am I correct?

Other than the above issues, my build does what it supposed to do.

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on May 09, 2010, 01:20:34 PM
Here are some pics of my build.
Good stuff! :icon_cool:
Quote
Was this clone build designed to have it's knobs work in reverse? Full counter clockwise is max speed, max range and max feedback. Looking at gut shot pics of those who built it, I really think that such is the case.
I know what you mean. Just reverse your black & red pot leads. I did this on mine and it works great. The taper of the C1M has a more "correct" feel also.
Quote
During slow settings, I am hearing some thump (tik-tak). It's very noticeable and and I want to eliminate it. It happens at a slow to mid rate setting. On slower settings, I would hear a dry and wet signal that alternates and the thump seems to sound at the start and end of the wet signal (sweep).
Try these things. First, I can't see the values, but try putting larger caps across the PS. Markus suggests this in the notes on his schematic for the original project.
Next, try this. (From Pg. 2; Reply 26; this thread.)
I put 47R in series w/R29, at their junction a 22uF cap was connected to GND. Also, 100n PS bypass caps were installed at every IC (3007 board also). These 2 things are there to provide a measure of "insurance", so to speak.
The first suggestion "isolates" the LFO. The second one is a matter of "proper etiquette". Often overlooked.
Quote
Other than the above issues, my build does what it supposed to do.
Time to box it up & get rockin'! ;D
All the Best!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on May 09, 2010, 05:00:23 PM
Here are some pics of my build.

(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/ryanogal/stompboxes/flanger/P5090675.jpg)

Nice work. Mine is close to finished too. Just waiting on a couple more parts to arrive - should be here this week.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on May 09, 2010, 06:08:45 PM
Hello

I've made a new layout joining both Gaussmarkov’s layout and daughter-board by Tomas (Tomeeque).
It's already tested and working. I Used the mods suggested by Dave W.(oldschoolanalog).
Schematics later (I'm lazy now  ;D)

http://www.4shared.com/document/wPcCxA3H/Mistress_9v_MN3007.html

I hope you like it !

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4800/ehem.jpg)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on May 09, 2010, 07:16:09 PM
Nice work Jorge! 
Looks like there might be enough room on the PCB at the output to squeeze in a FET for a bit of volume boost.
Just a thought...
Glad to see more folks giving this retrofit a try. :icon_cool:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: shadowmaster on May 09, 2010, 11:28:24 PM
Quote
I know what you mean. Just reverse your black & red pot leads. I did this on mine and it works great. The taper of the C1M has a more "correct" feel also.

That's why I asked. It defeats the purpose of having a reverse log taper on the rate pot if installed the other way around.

Quote
Try these things. First, I can't see the values, but try putting larger caps across the PS. Markus suggests this in the notes on his schematic for the original project.
Next, try this. (From Pg. 2; Reply 26; this thread.)
I put 47R in series w/R29, at their junction a 22uF cap was connected to GND. Also, 100n PS bypass caps were installed at every IC (3007 board also). These 2 things are there to provide a measure of "insurance", so to speak.
The first suggestion "isolates" the LFO. The second one is a matter of "proper etiquette". Often overlooked.

I did not suspect the LFO as the cause of the thumping since I don't hear the thump at higher speed settings and immediately blamed the flip-flop isntead.  :icon_redface: 

Good thing you pointed out the notes on Markus' schematic. I overlooked some of the notes written on the schematic especially the one on the top.

Will try those big cap replacements first and see what happens since this does not require drilling additional holes or flying components. :icon_mrgreen:

The addition of resistor and cap network on the LFO supply should likely solve my problem if the first countermeasure fails.

Anyway thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: benqbasic on May 10, 2010, 07:55:39 PM
Hello

I've made a new layout joining both Gaussmarkov’s layout and daughter-board by Tomas (Tomeeque).
It's already tested and working. I Used the mods suggested by Dave W.(oldschoolanalog).
Schematics later (I'm lazy now  ;D)

http://www.4shared.com/document/wPcCxA3H/Mistress_9v_MN3007.html

I hope you like it !

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4800/ehem.jpg)



Sweet Just etched the GGG version. Might save myself the daughter board and etch this.

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DiamondDog on May 10, 2010, 11:44:29 PM
Wow! I've been away for quite a few months and come back to something like this!

Kudos to everyone involved in this the and the other 30/3207 retrofits.

I'm not in a position to be a pioneer testing the "complete" layout- I still time constraints- but once it's sorted it will be on the list of to-dos for sure.

DD
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: shadowmaster on May 11, 2010, 12:00:49 PM
I am still having issues with my Mistress. Here are some of my observations on my build so that you can easily help me figure out the problem.

1 ) My initial suspicion is its not the LFO. On higher speed settings the ticking goes away.  But I did not discount the possibility that it may still be the LFO.

2 ) I am using a regulated and well-filtered power supply to power my builds. My BSIAB2 and my Dr. Boogey are quiet when I power them with it.

3 ) Replaced C1 with 1000uF and nothing happened. My Phaseur Fleur kept its ticking into tolerable levels after installing a big cap to the rails. So I was surprised by the result with what happened to my EM. So I went straight to isolating the LFO and did not bother to change C2 and C3 anymore as advised to lower clock noise on its schem.

4 ) Lifted R29 from its V+ terminal and replaced it with one terminal of 47Ohm. I joined the remaining resistor terminals together and added the positive side of a 22uF electrolytic capacitor. The negative side of the 22uF goes to ground. Ticking is still present.

5 ) Temporarily removed the MN3007 from its daughterboard and ticking is not present. "Dry" signal is clean at the output.

6 ) Audio probed input and output terminals of Ic2. Ticking is only present at pin 6 and 7. Loud ticking also is present at pin 3 of MN3007.

7 ) On certain settings, the ticking goes away when Speed is changed. Ticking goes away too sometimes when Range and clock bias are fiddled. So the Speed, Range and clock bias have an of influence to the ticking.

8 ) No ticking at all on Filter Matrix mode regardless of the settings of the knobs.

9 ) Below is a sample soundclip of my EM. First and second samples shows the ticking. I was tweaking the range knob before going on to record the second sample. You will notice that the ticking slowed down a bit compared to the first. The third sample is set at higher speed and with no ticking present.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6983360/EM2.mp3 (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6983360/EM2.mp3)

Any ideas? Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on May 11, 2010, 12:28:46 PM
Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

 At higher frequencies the amplitude of the LFO signal is lowered by two 1uF capacitors on it's way to the clock generator. That would explain, why it behaves differently..

 This and some other symptoms lead me to the idea, that it could be some kind of clock signal dropouts - but it should happen even in Filter-Matrix mode - does it really work in Filter-Matrix mode for full range?

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: shadowmaster on May 12, 2010, 11:46:23 AM
Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

 At higher frequencies the amplitude of the LFO signal is lowered by two 1uF capacitors on it's way to the clock generator. That would explain, why it behaves differently..

 This and some other symptoms lead me to the idea, that it could be some kind of clock signal dropouts - but it should happen even in Filter-Matrix mode - does it really work in Filter-Matrix mode for full range?

 T.

Yup. No tick on Filter-Matrix. However while turning up the Range from 0% up to about 15% of the rotation CW it would tick once but then would be completely gone. So if I try to rotate that knob go back and forth to that 15% mark of rotation, a tick would be heard on that mark regardless of the setting of the Speed knob. I don't know if this of any significance. Other than that the Filter-Matrix mode is OK. No annoying continuous tick.

Probed the oscillator and there's nothing in there. The rhythm of the ticking is the same rhythm as the one I hear when I probed the node of clock outputs of the 4013 or clock inputs of the MN3007. I don't think I am supposed to hear anything on that node if the signal passing on that is beyond audio frequencies. If I would adjust the clock bias to eliminate the ticking but later on when changing the setting of either the Speed or the Range knob, the ticking would re-occur.

I have already changed the clock bias connection and followed the way the clock bias of the Deluxe is wired which I did not do the first time around. I am starting to suspect that I am not clocking it high enough or there must be some problems on one of my components that I can't clock it high enough. I don't own any oscilloscope so I cannot measure the clock frequency. I only use a freeware software oscilloscope and an external soundcard for some of my builds which I believe is not capable to measure anything above the audio spectrum so nada. Ticking still occurs on either the extreme sides of the clock bias trim.

Ideas anyone??? Thanks!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on May 12, 2010, 12:23:05 PM
Yup. No tick on Filter-Matrix. However while turning up the Range from 0% up to about 15% of the rotation CW it would tick once but then would be completely gone. So if I try to rotate that knob go back and forth to that 15% mark of rotation, a tick would be heard on that mark regardless of the setting of the Speed knob. I don't know if this of any significance.

 You bet it is! :) In FLANGE MODE signal from LFO does exactly same thing (well, almost) as is continuous rotating of RANGE pot from the left to the right and back in FILTER-MATRIX mode! So the LFO goes periodical thru this 15% point up-and-down and cause this periodical ticking. I have to go now, more later..

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: shadowmaster on May 13, 2010, 09:19:53 AM
Yup. No tick on Filter-Matrix. However while turning up the Range from 0% up to about 15% of the rotation CW it would tick once but then would be completely gone. So if I try to rotate that knob go back and forth to that 15% mark of rotation, a tick would be heard on that mark regardless of the setting of the Speed knob. I don't know if this of any significance.

 You bet it is! :) In FLANGE MODE signal from LFO does exactly same thing (well, almost) as is continuous rotating of RANGE pot from the left to the right and back in FILTER-MATRIX mode! So the LFO goes periodical thru this 15% point up-and-down and cause this periodical ticking. I have to go now, more later..

 T.

 :icon_biggrin:  Cool. Thanks for helping me out Thomeeque! Let me know if you need any more information.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on May 13, 2010, 05:51:00 PM
:icon_biggrin:  Cool. Thanks for helping me out Thomeeque! Let me know if you need any more information.

 You're welcome!

 Well, I'm 99% sure that there's something wrong with the clock generator, most probably it drops out in 0-15% range (no clock signal for BBD). Plus I would say, when listening to the sample, that you are in lower frequency range than you should be..

 Is there a chance you could borrow oscilloscope and/or DMM capable of frequency measurement? Or visit somebody with these tools?

 Drop-outs you can check relatively easily even without these tools*, but for proper tuning it would be much better to have them.

 What transistor, diodes and capacitor (Q1, D1, D2 and C15 at this schemo (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/sch/EM3207_v1_0_diffs_1280.gif)) exactly you have used in the clock generator? What is approximate RT3 value dialed?

 T.

* For example you can create simple probe from normal LED and 4k7 (or 10k, something like that) resistor in series: connect cathode of the LED to circuit's ground, anode to one leg of the resistor and some wire to it's second leg - loose end of the wire makes measuring tip of the probe. When you connect this probe to one of clock signal pins at BBD (pin 2 and 6), you should see either

EDIT: Or you can just listen to the BBD output ( pins 7 and 8 ) by audio probe, there will be no signal passing thru BBD, if clock is stuck. :) What suits you better.. :)

(use either RANGE pot in FILTER-MATRIX mode or slow RATE in FLANGE mode)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: shadowmaster on May 14, 2010, 08:33:13 AM
Quote from: shadowmaster
During slow settings, I am hearing some thump (tik-tak). It's very noticeable and and I want to eliminate it. It happens at a slow to mid rate setting. On slower settings, I would hear a dry and wet signal that alternates and the thump seems to sound at the start and end of the wet signal (sweep).

This is what I've mentioned earlier. There should be no dry signal at all in the first place. It should be all wet at the output. The dry signal appears because of clock dropouts. Correct?

Quote from: Thomeeque
(use either RANGE pot in FILTER-MATRIX mode or slow RATE in FLANGE mode)

You gave me a lead about Q1, D1, D2 and C15 so I began to check where have I gone wrong in these area. The only one easily replaceable among these components was the transistor since it was socketed, so I took out the 2N5087 in there and just tried to pop in a 2N3906 not expecting anything from it.

Turned the Range knob and there was no more ticking. I was surprised. Fiddled with the Speed knob and the clock trim and still no ticking while listening to a beautiful flanged sound at the output. Popped the 2N5087 back in there and the ticking was back.

WOOOHOOO!!! Success! The culprit causing the clock droupouts was the 2N5087 transistor.

Many thanks to the guys who contributed on this 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007 project especially Dave and Thomeeque.

Well I still want to know why the 2N5087 caused the dropouts and it's not with a 2N3906. Other future builders should benefit from the answers of our flanger gurus here.

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on May 14, 2010, 07:51:33 PM
OK, got mine built.  We have flange!!

Some questions though:

1. The alignment procedure info (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=67766.0) talks about a gain trim and a balance adjust trim.  This build doesn't appear to have these.  I take it you just skip these steps...?

I'm just using a free signal generator app for the iPhone which is far from ideal and still trying to work out how to drive the o-scope I have borrowed which isn't making things any easier.

2. I've notice an obvious volume drop when the effect is engaged.  I was under the impression from the notes on the schematic that some changes had been made to the original circuit to address this issue.  Just wondering if others had this issue or it is just a side effect of not having the trimmers correctly calibrated yet.

Thanks

John
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on May 14, 2010, 10:23:24 PM
OK, got mine built.  We have flange!!
  :icon_cool:
Quote
1. The alignment procedure info (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=67766.0) talks about a gain trim and a balance adjust trim.  This build doesn't appear to have these.  I take it you just skip these steps...?
Since you can't adjust what's not there; "adjust what ya' got." ;D
Quote
I'm just using a free signal generator app for the iPhone which is far from ideal and still trying to work out how to drive the o-scope I have borrowed which isn't making things any easier.
There are several simple signal generators you can put together real quick. Use The Search Function (UTSF).
Quote
2. I've notice an obvious volume drop when the effect is engaged.  I was under the impression from the notes on the schematic that some changes had been made to the original circuit to address this issue.
Yes, very obvious. This issue arose when the original circuit was changed to TBP. The easiest solution is to put something at the output to give a bit of boost. A simple op amp based circuit will do just fine. The notes on the schem referred to the original non TBP unit, IIRC.
Quote
Just wondering if others had this issue...
You are not alone.
Quote
...or it is just a side effect of not having the trimmers correctly calibrated yet.
No, although the trimmers do have to be correctly adjusted.

All the Best!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on May 15, 2010, 09:42:04 AM
Dave, thanks for your responses.

I'm in business.  At this stage I've calibrated by ear, but it's sounding good.  I'll try and fine tune a bit more when I have some more time to sit down and work out how to drive the o-scope better.

Re: the volume drop, the simplest thing might be to try the buffered bypass (assuming that actually fixes the problem).  As long as it's got a decent buffer I don't really care.  I also found a schematic for a boost stage in the TZF conversion thread so that's Plan B.

The only other issue I've got is that you can hear the sweep in the background when not playing.  That was with a (switch mode) power supply connected.  Running off a battery it's virtually silent.  I will play around with the PS filtering and see if I can tame the background noise some more.

The next challenge is to try and find a 1790NS sized box somewhere here in Australia otherwise shipping is going to cost me about 3 times the price of the box.

Thanks everyone for all the work on this - great project!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on May 15, 2010, 09:45:01 AM
Just in case it's useful, here's what I did to calibrate by ear:

Bias: With the bias trimmer at the centre position I had a distorted flanged signal.  Backed the bias off just enough to remove the distortion.  Rotated Range pot through full range to double check.

Clock: Set switch to filter matrix mode.  Set trimmer to get 70kHz at pins 1 and 5 of the 4013 when measuring with my DMM.  Tweaked a bit in either direction to try and make it a bit quieter.  Finished up at about 75kHz from memory.

Feedback:  Max the feedback pot.  Increase the feedback trimmer until it starts oscillating and then backed it off to clean the signal up.  Double-checked by working through the full range and rate.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: shadowmaster on May 17, 2010, 05:53:07 AM
Quote from: shadowmaster
Turned the Range knob and there was no more ticking. I was surprised. Fiddled with the Speed knob and the clock trim and still no ticking while listening to a beautiful flanged sound at the output. Popped the 2N5087 back in there and the ticking was back.

I stand corrected on what I've said here. I was still able to hear a clock dropout/tick with the 2N3906 on slower Rate with the clock trim set high but backing the clock trim a bit totally eliminated it.

Just in case it's useful, here's what I did to calibrate by ear:

Bias: With the bias trimmer at the centre position I had a distorted flanged signal.  Backed the bias off just enough to remove the distortion.  Rotated Range pot through full range to double check.

Clock: Set switch to filter matrix mode.  Set trimmer to get 70kHz at pins 1 and 5 of the 4013 when measuring with my DMM.  Tweaked a bit in either direction to try and make it a bit quieter.  Finished up at about 75kHz from memory.

Feedback:  Max the feedback pot.  Increase the feedback trimmer until it starts oscillating and then backed it off to clean the signal up.  Double-checked by working through the full range and rate.

 :) Nice. No plans to attempt MN3007 TZF version? Someone among you here should do it. :icon_lol:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on May 17, 2010, 11:20:52 AM

Looks like there might be enough room on the PCB at the output to squeeze in a FET for a bit of volume boost.
Just a thought...

I think there is enough room too. But I'm not smart enough to do the booster. If you or anybody else  make the schematic, I'll put it on the layout to solve the volume drop problem.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on May 17, 2010, 01:11:13 PM

 :) Nice. No plans to attempt MN3007 TZF version? Someone among you here should do it. :icon_lol:
I've been offered a spare bit of space (about a 1590BB size) on a 4 layer Express PCB Board order... if I could get some help I could have a TZF board made up and prototyped professionaly... could be the next A/DA Group buy if it works...

But when I posted the idea and the seperate thread... there wasn't too much interest.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on May 20, 2010, 08:07:54 AM
Here's an update to my redraw of the layout.  I've built it an it sounds good so I'm prepared to declare it verified. (Click image for hi-res version.)


(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=43082&g2_serialNumber=1) (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Just1More/layouts/Electric+Mistress+MN3007+Layout+v1-0.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1)


I tried the buffered output and it is not to my liking.  The effect/bypass levels are very similar, but there is definitely some colouration to the bypassed tone and it doesn't sound as full as the direct signal.  It really needs a boost if you go with true bypass though.  I've tried out the recovery stage in the TZF conversion (http://www.aronnelson.com/DIYFiles/up/TZF_Mistress_v11_project_file.pdf) and it does the job nicely.  I still want to play around with the LPB/BMP style transistor boost stage too because I can probably make this a little more compact.

I have done some experimentation with the power filtering but I'm not there yet. It's still not acceptable when powered with a 1-Spot but silent when running from a battery.  This is the first time I've had any issues with this power supply.  I'm open to suggestions...
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on May 20, 2010, 07:20:20 PM
>I have done some experimentation with the power filtering but I'm not there yet. It's still not acceptable when powered with a 1-Spot but silent when running from a battery.  This is the first time I've had any issues with this power supply.  I'm open to suggestions...<
Have you tried it with an "old style" 9VDC regulated PS or wall wart?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on May 20, 2010, 07:25:49 PM
>I have done some experimentation with the power filtering but I'm not there yet. It's still not acceptable when powered with a 1-Spot but silent when running from a battery.  This is the first time I've had any issues with this power supply.  I'm open to suggestions...<
Have you tried it with an "old style" 9VDC regulated PS or wall wart?

No.  The only other power supply I've got is an old unregulated wall wart.  It's marked as 9V, but puts out just shy of 15V with nothing connected.  I'll give it a try. Better double check some datasheets first.  Is the MN3007 OK at that kind of voltage?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on May 20, 2010, 09:21:59 PM

 :) Nice. No plans to attempt MN3007 TZF version? Someone among you here should do it. :icon_lol:
I've been offered a spare bit of space (about a 1590BB size) on a 4 layer Express PCB Board order... if I could get some help I could have a TZF board made up and prototyped professionaly... could be the next A/DA Group buy if it works...

No Love at all for this? It's just board space going to waste otherwise but I need a bit of guidance to get it off the ground... by a bit I mean alot.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on May 24, 2010, 04:56:05 PM
A question for those who have completed this build. How quiet (or otherwise) should it be?

Mine is either still not callibrated correctly or has some other problems. I can the LFO sweep way too clearly when not playing so last night I experimented further with the trimmers.  I adjusted the bias a bit and found I could eleminate the noise, but then the flanged sound was distorted so backed it off again.

Next I played with the clock trim. This affects the pitch of the noise so I tried dialing it up till I could no longer hear it. That was fine, but instead there was a loud "tick tick" as the sweep changes direction.

Admittedly it's not boxed up yet, but I don't expect that will do much for this kind of noise. Just trying to find out whether I need to lower my expectations or keep working on it.

On an unrelated note, I've dealt with the volume drop issue by adding a LPB-1 boost stage to the end of the circuit which works nicely.  I'll build this on another daughterboard if I get the noise issue sorted.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on May 24, 2010, 05:28:32 PM
..Just trying to find out whether I need to lower my expectations or keep working on it..

 Maybe record some samples for us, it's hard to tell from what you have written.. T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: shadowmaster on May 25, 2010, 12:09:12 AM
Just recently boxed-up mine. Here are some pics.  :D

Still naked but with the rest of the offboard components installed.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/ryanogal/stompboxes/flanger/P5230690.jpg)

Now mounted to the enclosures.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/ryanogal/stompboxes/flanger/P5230691.jpg)

Here with the PCB shot.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/ryanogal/stompboxes/flanger/P5230694.jpg)

Mission accomplished.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/ryanogal/stompboxes/flanger/P5250695.jpg)


A question for those who have completed this build. How quiet (or otherwise) should it be?

The clock noise in mine can be heard around the same level as the hum in my amp. I'm lovin' mine. Should post some soundclips soon so as to inspire others to build this and also share their own experiences where others can also learn from.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on May 25, 2010, 07:47:38 AM
Mission accomplished.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l91/ryanogal/stompboxes/flanger/P5250695.jpg)

Nice work shadowmaster!!  Great looking build.  Where did you get the enclosure? - that looks great.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on May 25, 2010, 08:38:32 AM
Maybe record some samples for us, it's hard to tell from what you have written.. T.

Tomas

I've played with the trimmers some more.  This is about as good a balance as I can strike at the moment - certainly better than it was.  I think there is still some distortion on the flanged signal but backing the bias off further will introduce more noise.  I'll hook it up to the scope later in the week just to verify.

This is very crappy but will do the job - just recorded on my iPhone because I don't have any other recording gear available.  The level is pretty low - you'll probably want headphones.

Noise sample (http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Just1More/Electric+Mistress+noise.mp3.html)

Signal path is is guitar -> test rig (Electric Mistress powered by a fresh battery) -> Noisy Cricket amp -> speaker.  I put the iPhone right up against the speaker to get a reasonable recording level.

First there is clean guitar, then with the effect.  I cranked the amp output at the end so you can hear the noise more clearly.  There are some grounding buzzes in there - don't worry about them it was just my clumsy fingers touching things they shouldn't.  I varied the Rate pot so you hear the effect but Feedback and Range are maxed out the whole time.  The noise is much less noticeable at more moderate feedback and/or range settings.

I also used an el cheapo (free) SPL meter iPhone app just to compare levels a bit.  Loudest parts are about 80dB with iPhone 6 inches from the speaker in this test.  The background noise sits around 30dB but jumps to 40dB as the sweep changes direction.  For a reference point I checked this against my Rat clone.  Background noise never gets anywhere near 30dB from that pedal which is one of the noisier ones in my collection.

I tried adding the 47R resistor and 22uF cap near R29 as suggested but this made no noticeable difference.

I've started out with the audio probe.  The signal is clean at pin 1 of the 4558.  At pin 5 the sweep noise is very evident and also at the wiper of the feedback trimmer.  You can hear it at pin 6 but it's not nearly as obvious.  That's as far as I've got at this stage....

Here's some images in case it's helpful:
(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=43124&g2_serialNumber=2)

(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=43128&g2_serialNumber=2)


BTW here's the clock readings I got in filter matrix mode as previously promised:
Range pot fully CW: 76.1kHz
Range pot fully CCW: 1.11MHz
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: shadowmaster on May 25, 2010, 10:49:36 AM
Nice work shadowmaster!!  Great looking build.  Where did you get the enclosure? - that looks great.

Bought it during one of my business trips in Japan. The name of the manufacturer is Takachi. Try to google and maybe find their local distributor in your place.

Here's the link to their site.

http://www.takachi-el.co.jp/data/h_english/english00.html (http://www.takachi-el.co.jp/data/h_english/english00.html)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: azrael on May 25, 2010, 11:29:02 AM
Am I missing something? shadowmaster, Play1More, the offboard wiring for your daughter board looks a little different, in regards to C2.  ???
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: shadowmaster on May 26, 2010, 11:09:41 PM
Am I missing something? shadowmaster, Play1More, the offboard wiring for your daughter board looks a little different, in regards to C2.  ???

I believe you are talking about the power and ground connections of the daughterboard going to the mainboard. Below is the answer sir. If you want a bulletproof build, follow how the experts do it.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.msg699802#msg699802 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.msg699802#msg699802)


 Hi John!

 Impressive work! :icon_exclaim: However I cannot check it properly (I did not build it ;)), I have just one small note - as I advice in the first post, I would not feed it from SAD socket - even Dave proved that it is nothing crucial actually, I would still advice to feed it this way (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/Electric Mistress MN3007 Layout v0-4-ThmqsNote.gif) as it should minimize risk of unwanted interferences between retrofit and rest of the circuit via feeding tracks.

 Good luck, T.



Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on May 31, 2010, 08:05:30 AM
Here's some further info to my previous post.  I've got the voltages now on all the active components.

(http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=43178&g2_serialNumber=1)

Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  This one is really starting to frustrate me.  Everything seems to work as expected but I'm sure there shouldn't be so much noise.  The only thing I've really got to compare against is a Boss CE2 and it's pretty much silent.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on June 01, 2010, 07:59:53 AM
OK, I'm a goose  :icon_redface:

Obviously my build really hates power supplies like the 1-Spot.  Although the EM was running off a battery, my LM386 test amp was using the 1-Spot for its power supply.  Today I switched back to my normal amp with the EM running off a battery and it's nearly silent except for the most extreme settings.

At least I've got a workaround now.  I'll see if one of my mates has a transformer based power supply and whether that's any quieter.  I might have to finally invest in a proper isolated power supply.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on June 02, 2010, 06:02:13 AM
OK, I'm a goose  :icon_redface:

Obviously my build really hates power supplies like the 1-Spot.  Although the EM was running off a battery, my LM386 test amp was using the 1-Spot for its power supply.  Today I switched back to my normal amp with the EM running off a battery and it's nearly silent except for the most extreme settings.

At least I've got a workaround now.  I'll see if one of my mates has a transformer based power supply and whether that's any quieter.  I might have to finally invest in a proper isolated power supply.


 Hi John!

 I'm glad you have found cause of the issue - I know how this kind of issues can get frustrating!

 Extreme settings are noisier principially, so you are probably OK now. :)

 About your PSU: is it this one

 (http://www.visualsound.net/images/product_images/additionals/1spot.png) (http://www.visualsound.net/index.php/products/pedal_power_supplies/1_spot_power_supply)

 ? Well, normally I would simply say get rid of it (I'd never choose switching PSU for pedals), but Visual Sound = R.G. (http://www.visualsound.net/index.php/resources/rg_keen) and R.G. usually knows what he's doing - maybe you could try to consult with him? There still may be some simple solution how to make your pedal and your PSU good friends :)

 Good luck, T.

Btw. thanks for the clock readings! - was it maximum where you could get without dropouts?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on June 02, 2010, 07:55:52 AM
Hi John!

 I'm glad you have found cause of the issue - I know how this kind of issues can get frustrating!

 Extreme settings are noisier principially, so you are probably OK now. :)

 About your PSU: is it this one

 (http://www.visualsound.net/images/product_images/additionals/1spot.png) (http://www.visualsound.net/index.php/products/pedal_power_supplies/1_spot_power_supply)

 ? Well, normally I would simply say get rid of it (I'd never choose switching PSU for pedals), but Visual Sound = R.G. (http://www.visualsound.net/index.php/resources/rg_keen) and R.G. usually knows what he's doing - maybe you could try to consult with him? There still may be some simple solution how to make your pedal and your PSU good friends :)

 Good luck, T.

Btw. thanks for the clock readings! - was it maximum where you could get without dropouts?

Yeah, that's the one.  I have similar noise issues with another switching PSU (Diago Powerstation (http://www.diago.co.uk/pedal-power/pedal-power/)) with this pedal.  Despite some bad press about switching PSUs, with my setup I've never had an issue before.  I know some pedals are more susceptible than others - may the EM just doesn't get on well with them.

I could probably squeeze a little more out of the clock.  The minimum setting went up to about 84kHz or 86kHz before I started getting dropouts, but I'm not sure what the maximum was.  I'm happy to have another fiddle with it if you want me to take another reading - especially given the amount of assistance you've provided me with this build. Thanks again.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on June 21, 2010, 08:57:10 PM
Dunno if anyone's interested but I re-drew the SAD1024 TZF Board to use the MN3007 and this seemed as good as any place to add it, Entirely Untested & Unchecked -

(http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Scruffie_Crow/TZFEM.jpg?t=1277168120)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Marcos Camara on June 22, 2010, 08:20:28 AM
Friends,
in my arose the following problems:
The guitar signal does not go along with it;
Presented something like a whistle and a siren unbearable;
Stirring the pot I saw clearly that they work by changing noises and whistle;
I noticed the flanger effect manifests itself, but along with noise and whistle. But nothing of the sound of the guitar show.
Reviewed every little thing, every little thing and nothing.
Does anyone have an idea of what??

Note: I used BC557 and BC549 (reversed) as equivalent.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: StephenGiles on June 22, 2010, 10:38:34 AM
What is the advantage of this 4049 inverter buffer circuit. Why not 3 and 3??
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on June 22, 2010, 11:43:34 AM
What is the advantage of this 4049 inverter buffer circuit. Why not 3 and 3??

 I believe I was inspired by your post here (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=72329.msg585416#msg585416) ;) I was sure that if it's good for ADA it should be good for EM as well..

 Btw. would you have these two documents stored by any chance please (www.film-tech.com seems to be down now), I'd like to see them if possible:

 http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/KINTEKKT24.pdf (http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/KINTEKKT24.pdf)
 http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/SMARTSR330.pdf (http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/SMARTSR330.pdf)

 Thanks, T.

Dunno if anyone's interested but I re-drew the SAD1024 TZF Board..

 Hi! This board is an overkill (needlessly complicated clock mainly, LPF maybe too) - I'll try to draw something lighter, if I'll have a minute.

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on June 22, 2010, 11:47:44 AM
double-post, sorry
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on June 22, 2010, 11:49:25 AM
Dunno if anyone's interested but I re-drew the SAD1024 TZF Board..

 Hi! This board is an overkill (needlessly complicated clock mainly, LPF maybe too) - I'll try to draw something lighter, if I'll have a minute.

 T.
Ah, that would explain this quote from the original thread
Quote
I know there are some things that could be simplyfied, but hey... it works Wink

I had no idea what was needed or not and just copied it straight from the TZF Thread Schematic & Converted it, i'm glad it can be simplified though, if you do get a minute that'd be great to see what you come up with  :)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on June 22, 2010, 01:00:32 PM
Hi! This board is an overkill (needlessly complicated clock mainly...)
Can't this be done w/just a 4046, 4049, and "associated components"?
Quote
(...LPF maybe too)
The LPF seems simple & functional enough. If it ain't broke...
Quote
- I'll try to draw something lighter, if I'll have a minute.T.
As always, your efforts are appreciated!  :icon_cool:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: StephenGiles on June 22, 2010, 05:02:23 PM
What is the advantage of this 4049 inverter buffer circuit. Why not 3 and 3??

 I believe I was inspired by your post here (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=72329.msg585416#msg585416) ;) I was sure that if it's good for ADA it should be good for EM as well..

 Btw. would you have these two documents stored by any chance please (www.film-tech.com seems to be down now), I'd like to see them if possible:

 http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/KINTEKKT24.pdf (http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/KINTEKKT24.pdf)
 http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/SMARTSR330.pdf (http://www.film-tech.com/warehouse/manuals/SMARTSR330.pdf)

 Thanks, T.

Dunno if anyone's interested but I re-drew the SAD1024 TZF Board..

 Hi! This board is an overkill (needlessly complicated clock mainly, LPF maybe too) - I'll try to draw something lighter, if I'll have a minute.

 T.

Ah yes, thanks for the reminder!

I'll have a look for those documents.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on July 13, 2010, 06:35:06 AM
Well, I finally got mine finished - or so I thought.  Once it was all boxed up I found yet another problem.  There's an annoying ticking sound which is pretty obvious with both the effect engaged and when bypassed.  I hadn't seen this on my test rig - only since it was boxed up.

Speed varies as the Rate control is adjusted so I'm guessing it's LFO related.  So far I've done a quick bit of poking around with the daughter-board and the input, output and flange/matrix switch wiring with no change to the ticking.  Looks like yet more debugging ahead of me  >:(

I'll keep working on it, but any advice would be welcome...

Here's some pics anyway:

(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa88/scullenj/Electric%20Mistress/EM003.jpg)

(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa88/scullenj/Electric%20Mistress/EM006.jpg)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on July 13, 2010, 07:59:27 AM
Well, I finally got mine finished - or so I thought.  Once it was all boxed up I found yet another problem.  There's an annoying ticking sound which is pretty obvious with both the effect engaged and when bypassed.  I hadn't seen this on my test rig - only since it was boxed up.

 Nice build, congats!

 I've had same issue, solution is relatively simple - LFO section (including speed pot wiring) works (thanks to present square wave signal of big amplitude) as a pretty strong transmitter of electro-magnetic pulses, signal path (including in/out jacks) is pretty sensitive receiver. Solution is to keep these parts electro-magnetically isolated. Either you try to keep them far enough from each other or to use electro-magnetical shield between them. In your case second way is probably more suitable. Have a piece of metal plate (e.g. from empty beer can) and wrap it around LFO section, don't forget to connect it conductively to the ground. That should help.

 Good luck, T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on July 13, 2010, 07:37:25 PM
Nice build, congats!

 I've had same issue, solution is relatively simple - LFO section (including speed pot wiring) works (thanks to present square wave signal of big amplitude) as a pretty strong transmitter of electro-magnetic pulses, signal path (including in/out jacks) is pretty sensitive receiver. Solution is to keep these parts electro-magnetically isolated. Either you try to keep them far enough from each other or to use electro-magnetical shield between them. In your case second way is probably more suitable. Have a piece of metal plate (e.g. from empty beer can) and wrap it around LFO section, don't forget to connect it conductively to the ground. That should help.

 Good luck, T.

Thanks Tomas.  My next move was to try some grounded aluminium foil shielding, so thanks for validating this idea  :)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DiamondDog on July 13, 2010, 08:05:49 PM
If anybody is interested in the changes done to make this work let me know.
If not, I won't waste my time posting info that is of no interest. :P

Please post- I'm very interested in this.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on July 14, 2010, 07:55:41 AM
Page 2, reply 26. This thread.
Reference material:
9V EM PCB, schematic & layout: http://www.aronnelson.com/DIYFiles/up/9V_Mistress_project_file_v11_update.pdf
3007 retrofit board thread: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78270.0
Good reading:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=63044.0
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=34607.0
First, parts not used/installed:R23,R19,R11,R12,,D1,D2,C5,C9. Changes: new value & explanation in (parenthesis): R5(jumper), R17(47K, improved bias range), C19(10pf, This was done to raise the max clock f), R38(15K, As you raise the max clock f, the low f goes up w/it. This restored the low clock f), C14(Added 3n3 in parallel w/the existing 2n2 [5n5 total], the regen was way too "thin sounding". This "fattened" things up a bit), The clock trim pot was wired as in the DELUXE EM schem. This gave a wider clock range. I put 47R in series w/R29, at their junction a 22uF cap was connected to GND. Also, 100n PS bypass caps were installed at every IC (3007 board also). These 2 things are there to provide a measure of "insurance", so to speak. Also, I was running short on certain parts, so for the retrofit board I used 22uF caps for C1,2,4 and I used 47R for both R1&5. Hookup of the retrofit board is fairly obvious. See photos, a few posts back (If you want more details, just ask! :icon_cool:) Just remember to DOUBLE THE CLOCK f's WHEN SETTING THIS UP. Double the BBD stages; double the clock f. Please feel free to ask Q's. Also, as I mentioned earlier, if anybody sees a way that this can be improved upon or done better; or; if anything is obviously incorrect, please say something. I feel this works and sounds as good, if not better than the EM's I have heard/owned in the past. Now who will be the first to try this?
Have Fun!
Dave
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Just1More on July 15, 2010, 08:16:32 AM
Nice build, congats!

 I've had same issue, solution is relatively simple - LFO section (including speed pot wiring) works (thanks to present square wave signal of big amplitude) as a pretty strong transmitter of electro-magnetic pulses, signal path (including in/out jacks) is pretty sensitive receiver. Solution is to keep these parts electro-magnetically isolated. Either you try to keep them far enough from each other or to use electro-magnetical shield between them. In your case second way is probably more suitable. Have a piece of metal plate (e.g. from empty beer can) and wrap it around LFO section, don't forget to connect it conductively to the ground. That should help.

 Good luck, T.

Thanks Tomas.  My next move was to try some grounded aluminium foil shielding, so thanks for validating this idea  :)

Tried this out with some grounded kitchen foil - works like a charm  ;D.  I'll try and put a more permanent solution together on the weekend.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: SpufuZ on July 21, 2010, 12:20:19 PM
Hello

I've made a new layout joining both Gaussmarkov’s layout and daughter-board by Tomas (Tomeeque).
It's already tested and working. I Used the mods suggested by Dave W.(oldschoolanalog).
Schematics later (I'm lazy now  ;D)

http://www.4shared.com/document/wPcCxA3H/Mistress_9v_MN3007.html

I hope you like it !

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4800/ehem.jpg)


The link doesn´t work anymore!?
Have you completed the schematics?

//David
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on July 21, 2010, 12:38:43 PM
Hello

I've made a new layout joining both Gaussmarkov’s layout and daughter-board by Tomas (Tomeeque).
It's already tested and working. I Used the mods suggested by Dave W.(oldschoolanalog).
Schematics later (I'm lazy now  ;D)

http://www.4shared.com/document/wPcCxA3H/Mistress_9v_MN3007.html

I hope you like it !


The link doesn´t work anymore!?
Have you completed the schematics?

//David
Works fine for me.

Any news on the TZF Board Thomeeque?  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: SpufuZ on July 21, 2010, 12:57:00 PM
Yes!
Now it worked.
The schematic would be nice now!  :D

Are the two layouts in the PDF on page 2 identical?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on July 22, 2010, 08:39:37 PM
Are the two layouts in the PDF on page 2 identical?

Yes they are!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on July 24, 2010, 03:01:57 PM
Any news on the TZF Board Thomeeque?  :icon_mrgreen:

 TZF3007 - TZF (short delay) module, MN3007 based (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=85977.0)

 Note for myself: never make promises lightly :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: azrael on July 28, 2010, 01:57:41 AM
Gosh, I need to get an o-scope so I can bias this thing. That's the only reason I haven't built one. :(
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: 12Bass on July 28, 2010, 08:30:49 AM
Gosh, I need to get an o-scope so I can bias this thing. That's the only reason I haven't built one. :(

Although helpful, it is not necessary.  BBD bias can be adjusted by ear.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: theehman on July 28, 2010, 08:32:08 AM
Gosh, I need to get an o-scope so I can bias this thing. That's the only reason I haven't built one. :(

Although helpful, it is not necessary.  BBD bias can be adjusted by ear.

+1.  In all the years I've been doing repairs, I've always biased BBDs by ear.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on September 15, 2010, 11:56:18 AM
Hello

I've made a new layout joining both Gaussmarkov’s layout and daughter-board by Tomas (Tomeeque).
It's already tested and working. I Used the mods suggested by Dave W.(oldschoolanalog).
Schematics later (I'm lazy now  ;D)

http://www.4shared.com/document/wPcCxA3H/Mistress_9v_MN3007.html

I hope you like it !

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4800/ehem.jpg)


If I got it right, to change this PCB from a 3007 to a more adequate 3207 just requires a change on pins 1 and 5, modify the values of R9 and R10 (don't imagine the right values) and conect R11 to Vcc instead of ground. I'll try to do an update drqwing of that.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on September 15, 2010, 07:33:37 PM
If I got it right, to change this PCB from a 3007 to a more adequate 3207 just requires a change on pins 1 and 5, modify the values of R9 and R10 (don't imagine the right values) and conect R11 to Vcc instead of ground. I'll try to do an update drqwing of that.
You just have to exchange R9 and R10 (in the retrofit layout), for the other stuff you're right  ;)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on September 16, 2010, 04:40:28 AM
OK. The resistors it's easy: just swap R9 with R10 and connect R11 the other way around. For the IC: I was reading Panasonic's MN3207 and 3007 datasheets and found out that they have exactly the same terminal assignments. pdf files are too large to upload but it goes like this:
1-GND    8-OUT2
2-CP1     7-OUT1
3-IN       6-CP2
4-Vgg     5-Vdd

If this is correct we don't have to invert the IC. I'm right or did I miss something?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: StephenGiles on September 16, 2010, 06:43:26 AM
Gosh, I need to get an o-scope so I can bias this thing. That's the only reason I haven't built one. :(

Although helpful, it is not necessary.  BBD bias can be adjusted by ear.

+1.  In all the years I've been doing repairs, I've always biased BBDs by ear.

The sound heard out of the BBD when adjusting the bias trim should be nothing/distortion/clear/distortion/nothing, so set it at a point where clear sound is heard.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on September 16, 2010, 07:04:50 AM
OK. The resistors it's easy: just swap R9 with R10 and connect R11 the other way around. For the IC: I was reading Panasonic's MN3207 and 3007 datasheets and found out that they have exactly the same terminal assignments. pdf files are too large to upload but it goes like this:
1-GND    8-OUT2
2-CP1     7-OUT1
3-IN       6-CP2
4-Vgg     5-Vdd

If this is correct we don't have to invert the IC. I'm right or did I miss something?

You can find the answer on page 3 of this topic. The 2 ICs have the same pinout but MN3007 has P-channel FET while MN3207 has N-channel FET so you have to exchange just pins 1 & 5 to compensate this difference. You can compare my retrofit for MN3207 with the original 3007 one to see the changes I did
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on September 16, 2010, 07:22:49 AM
OK! It was just an English issue (not my mother language). When I saw change pins 1 and 5 I thought the chips were different (kind of mirror image). Know it's even easier than I tougth. Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on September 20, 2010, 03:24:03 PM
Hello

This is the new version with output boster and the complete schematic.:

(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2349/mistressmn3007boster2.jpg)



The link for PDF:

http://www.4shared.com/document/8sQgOJF0/Mistress_MN3007_English.html

Tested and working.I  hope you like it.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on September 20, 2010, 03:28:06 PM
sorry
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on September 20, 2010, 05:12:10 PM
Nice work jorge! :icon_cool:
One suggestion/BIG favor... Could you please put some send & return pads for the TZF option on the board? Just refer to the original markusw schematic/PDF for placement. I have a TZF board on the way and want to use this layout for the main flanger circuit. If all goes well then maybe the EM & TZF boards can be incorporated on one PCB.
Thanks!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on September 20, 2010, 05:39:19 PM
Could you please put some send & return pads for the TZF option on the board?

Yes , will be a pleasure. Tomorrow I'll do it !
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on September 21, 2010, 09:58:11 AM
oldschoolanalog

Here is the send/return version:

http://www.4shared.com/document/xNi5MG7d/Mistress_MN3007_SendRet.html

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on September 21, 2010, 10:18:44 AM
Thanks! ;D
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Ummagumma on September 21, 2010, 02:43:48 PM
now with 3207 please!!!  :icon_wink:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on September 21, 2010, 03:21:02 PM
I can do it with 3207, but I can´t test it and I need to read how to do it, so takes more time...
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3207
Post by: JRM on September 30, 2010, 11:59:57 AM
I was trying to base the 3207 pcb layout on jorge's 3007 but I've discovered that the 3207 scheme (on the 1st or 2nd page of this thread) is not exactly the same, with several changes and specialy with less components (8 resistors and 3 caps if I've counted correctly). 3007 scheme is nearer the original SAD1024 scheme. Can somebody explain me why?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on October 04, 2010, 03:16:46 PM
Hi
I 've exchanged pins 1 & 5 in the layout. Is that enought?
If someone wants to try...

http://www.4shared.com/document/ZahcEM1H/EM_3207_test.html

IT IS NOT TESTED!!!

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on October 04, 2010, 06:58:15 PM
Hi
I 've exchanged pins 1 & 5 in the layout. Is that enought?
If someone wants to try...

http://www.4shared.com/document/ZahcEM1H/EM_3207_test.html

IT IS NOT TESTED!!!


No, it's not enough, but it won't be that hard to complete the job
Just compare these two layouts and you'll see the differences, the first is the mn3007 retrofit and the second is the mn3207 one.
http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3007/PCB_v0_1_layout_1200DPI.png
http://img135.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207lo.jpg/
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on October 04, 2010, 08:29:51 PM
DLC86

I can't open the 3207 image!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on October 05, 2010, 04:12:51 AM
It's working for me... BTW, try this other link:
http://it.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=169oo45&s=7
If it doesn't work please explain me how to attach images here ???
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on October 05, 2010, 09:04:15 AM
I can't see the image yet.
But like JRM said, in the schematic at page 3, there are  a lot of changes, like suply filtering.
Looks like I need change parts in the main board too, and not only the daughter board .
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on October 05, 2010, 01:14:32 PM
I'm sorry but I think the problem is in your browser because I can see them both with my computers.
However i paste the suggestion I received from thomeeque when I was building the 3207 version (which is working very fine for 5 months 8)).
switch R9 & R10 values and pins 1 & 5 of IC2 and hook R11 to VCC instead of GND and you're there, at least theoretically..
R9 & R10 are 14k & 1k. R11 is 47k

I didn't check the schematic, I followed this layout for the main board which has several changes compared to the original schematic, I don't know if they're right for mn3207, maybe thomeeque can give you clearer answers
http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/Just1More/layouts/Electric+Mistress+MN3007+Layout+v0-4.png.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

BTW, in the next weeks I'm going to build the 3007 version and I'll let you know if I can hear or see any difference between the twos
Bye :)

EDIT: reading the posts on page 3 and the schematic i can assume the changes made in the main board are for both versions, not only mn3207 one, they're thomeeque mods to improve the circuit. In the top-left corner of the schematic you'll see what these mods do. To just swap the 3007 with the 3207 you just have to see the components in blue box in the schem, aka see what I wrote above. I think now everything should be clearer ;)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on October 05, 2010, 08:45:58 PM
Here is the layout, so. I think it's OK now.
Thanks for help DLC86 !! :icon_smile:

Not tested yet. If someone wanna try, please post the report.

http://www.4shared.com/document/cY9BWoBM/Mistress_MN3207.html
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on October 06, 2010, 05:08:11 AM
Here is the layout, so. I think it's OK now.
Thanks for help DLC86 !! :icon_smile:

Not tested yet. If someone wanna try, please post the report.

http://www.4shared.com/document/cY9BWoBM/Mistress_MN3207.html

I think it's ok too, well done! ;)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on October 06, 2010, 06:27:20 AM
OK! Now it's crystal clear! Thanks's Jorge for your work. One should mark that it's the MN3207 retrofit WITHOUT the mods of unity gain, the one called "Vref covers the BBD bias" (I haven't studied what that means yet) and additional filtering for LFO.

Allow me to thank Jorge in our common language:

Um grande obrigado deste lado de cá do Atlântico.

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on October 06, 2010, 08:15:54 AM
OK! Now it's crystal clear! Thanks's Jorge for your work. One should mark that it's the MN3207 retrofit WITHOUT the mods of unity gain, the one called "Vref covers the BBD bias" (I haven't studied what that means yet) and additional filtering for LFO.

Allow me to thank Jorge in our common language:

Um grande obrigado deste lado de cá do Atlântico.


The unity gain mod is useless in this layout because of the output boost stage. But maybe he can add these mods in the prevoius layout... ;D
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on October 06, 2010, 08:24:23 AM
Another one? Is there any other topic with so many layouts?   ;D ;D ;D
Remambering that if you don't want the booster stage, just don't instal its parts (red ones) and use the "OUT 1" !

Um abraço JRM!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on October 06, 2010, 08:52:08 AM
I think it's better to keep it as close to the original as possible, without any mods except from the retrofit.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DLC86 on October 06, 2010, 08:58:34 AM
Another one? Is there any other topic with so many layouts?   ;D ;D ;D
Remambering that if you don't want the booster stage, just don't instal its parts (red ones) and use the "OUT 1" !

Um abraço JRM!
I was joking, :D I think we're ok for now.
I think it's better to keep it as close to the original as possible, without any mods except from the retrofit.
I agree, but maybe with those mods and without the booster a smaller layout could be drawn... but we must send jorge some money for his work! ;D
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: gefi on October 06, 2010, 09:07:38 AM
Hello

I've made a new layout joining both Gaussmarkov’s layout and daughter-board by Tomas (Tomeeque).
It's already tested and working. I Used the mods suggested by Dave W.(oldschoolanalog).
Schematics later (I'm lazy now  ;D)

http://www.4shared.com/document/wPcCxA3H/Mistress_9v_MN3007.html

I hope you like it !

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4800/ehem.jpg)


Hello
This verified the PCB?, it works correctly?
thanks in advance
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on October 06, 2010, 10:06:30 AM
gefi

The layouts with MN3007 were tested several times and are working.

 ... but we must send jorge some money for his work! ;D

HAHA ! no way, I'm just having fun!!! ;D
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: gefi on October 20, 2010, 07:11:32 AM
Hello
I already assembling and working, now I have to adjust trimpots


(http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6049/img5230j.jpg) (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/img5230j.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Greetings
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on October 20, 2010, 09:34:03 AM

(http://cdblog.centraldesktop.com/thumbs%20up.jpg)

 :)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3207
Post by: JRM on November 12, 2010, 12:32:10 PM
Hi,
I'm redesigning the board of the MN3207 retrofit on Eagle in order to have only one board but without the output booster (I'd rather do the unity gain mod). All was going nicely till the point a difference showed up: On the last retrofit board I had, one should conect legs 2 and 5 of CD4013 to leg 7 of CD4049 and leg 1 of 4013 to leg 5 of 4049 but on the scheme drawn by Thomeeque I see it the other way around. Does this make any difference (sorry for my too poor knowledge)? If so, which one is correct?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on November 13, 2010, 07:32:07 AM
Sorry folks! After reading again the datasheets I've understood that it's the same: all in/out of CD4049 are the same, it's just a logical operator
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on November 13, 2010, 04:18:40 PM
HAHA ! no way, I'm just having fun!!! ;D
*Cough* http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78741.0

And the award for the least subtle hint goes to...  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on November 13, 2010, 10:30:17 PM
HAHA ! no way, I'm just having fun!!! ;D
Having fun? I lost 4 hours and my board is still a mess and with a lot of work to do! And I'm doing it with Eagle... Updating the schematic was OK but populating the board is a nightmare!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on November 18, 2010, 02:01:47 PM

Having fun? I lost 4 hours and my board is still a mess and with a lot of work to do! And I'm doing it with Eagle... Updating the schematic was OK but populating the board is a nightmare!

I spent a week (6 afternoons) just to reorder those two boards. To redraw it all...           ...maybe after Christmas !!!! ;D ;D

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on November 19, 2010, 09:36:21 AM
I understand you perfectly: I've given up and I'll just not install the boost section. The intention was to shorten the board a little bit but it doesn't pay the effort.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: bazant17 on November 22, 2010, 04:27:14 PM
Today I've finished assembling. I made the pcb a bit more compact and managed to fit it into Hammond 1590BB enclosure. I used the version for MN3207 and it seems to work very well! Nevertheless, I've only adjusted the trimpots by ear, but as soon as I get an access to the scope I will carry out a proper alignment procedure. As far as I know, the MN3207 version should work better with low voltages (look at the THD figures in datasheets).

I've also changed the booster stage to lower the gain (now it's set to about 3).

Thanks for the layout!

A photo:
(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/1824/mistress.th.jpg) (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/mistress.jpg/)

Greetings from Poland,
Mat

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on November 22, 2010, 04:41:39 PM
Nice work/first post :icon_cool:.
...and welcome aboard!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Cerberus on November 24, 2010, 01:17:48 PM
Build this flanger from the pdf file of jorge_r some pages back, it works in the sence that it get dry signal but no effect what so ever, not even a tick.

Compared voltages with the list from Just1More and its about equal with the exeption of 8.4v on pin 5 and 6 on the 3007.

Swapped the 3007 with my diy small clone and it works in there so its not the chip.

So i'm kinda lost in where to begin debugging, maybe some1 has some pointers for me?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Cerberus on November 24, 2010, 02:17:33 PM
Ignore post above, forgot to solder pin 8 of the 3007 socket  :icon_redface: .... flanging now :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on December 14, 2010, 06:55:06 AM
Hi guys I'm going to pick up my pcb today. During the weekend I've taken a final look at the schematics and I've found something odd: if one takes the original EM9V schem (by Markus W.) and the retrofit board (by Thomeeque) and compare it with Tomeeque's 3207 schem, there are this differences (appart from other that are mods by Thomeque: unity gain, additional supply filtering for LFO and BBD bias cover):

1- There's a 100R resistance between VCC and pin 5 of MN3207 in the retrofit board that disapears on Tom's 3207 schem;
2- There's a 47uF cap between pin 5 of MN3207 and ground in the retrofit board that disapears on Tom's 3207 schem;
3- There's a 10R resistance between VCC and pin 1 of CD4049 in the retrofit board that disapears on Tom's 3207 schem.

Of course one can replace all this with jumpers but the important question is why were that components there and why were they removed?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on December 14, 2010, 10:16:31 AM
Of course one can replace all this with jumpers but the important question is why were that components there and why were they removed?

 Hi JRM!

 These parts form supply voltage filters for different sections (on the retrofit there is one for the BBD and one for the clock buffer).

 This improves supply voltage filtering of each section and prevents ripple & peaks generated by one section to get into supply rails of other sections.

 In the retrofit I've wanted to be save, because I don't know nothing about EMs (or other BBD circuits eventually) people are going to put it in (and this can be very topology and even PCB layout dependant) - this way should be the risk of the host circuit being negatively influenced by the retrofit (or vice versa) minimal.

 In the case of my EM3207 project I'm there from the beginning and completely so I have more control and therefor I may try to go more risky way (with the advantage of the lower part count leading to simpler and smaller PCB etc.).

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on December 14, 2010, 11:58:50 AM
Thanks a lot for your answer Tom. As I'm using jorge r's pcb layout which is mainly a retrofit embedded on the original board, I'll keep those 3 parts. As soon as I finish construction I'll post my results.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on December 21, 2010, 06:03:55 PM
After forgetting the Zener for my Order to finally finish this thing, while searching to see how vital it was I found this old post by Markusw-

Quote
4) Will work. However, I recommend you to use a 15V Zener and run the thing with 12V (or even 15V) supply. Really sounds better!  Wink

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=57937.20

Might be worth a shot for anyone interested in improving the sound.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: jorge r on December 30, 2010, 06:37:39 PM
Several handmakers, including me, have used 12v supply (but with 12v zenner) and the result is much better. But please, don't do it with MN3207 version.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: azrael on January 13, 2011, 12:57:31 PM
I etched one of jorge's boards. It looks great!

Now, I'm a bit confused here. I would like to add TZF, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it. Can someone explain it to me?
I need to etch one of Thomeque's daughterboards, and thus need a second 3007, right?
Then I need to connect the daughter board's in/out to the send/return points on the Mistress, right?

Any help would be great. :D
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: azrael on March 01, 2011, 05:03:53 PM
anyone?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on March 02, 2011, 07:04:23 AM
I etched one of jorge's boards. It looks great!
Now, I'm a bit confused here. I would like to add TZF, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it. Can someone explain it to me?
I need to etch one of Thomeque's daughterboards, and thus need a second 3007, right?

 To achieve real-time TZF effect you need to delay "dry" signal before it's mixed with "wet" signal by few milliseconds, so the sweeped delay of "wet" signal can swing around it in both directions (so delta of these delays goes from negative value thru zero to positive and back).

 One of possibilities how to delay "dry" signal is to use one of my daughterboards (TZF3007 or TZF3207) - I'd advice you to use the variant using same BBD as the host circuit, if you have a choice. Unfortunately none of these modules was fully verified yet (AFAIK).

Then I need to connect the daughter board's in/out to the send/return points on the Mistress, right?

 Yes, that's the interrupted path where "dry" signal goes to mix with "wet" signal, TZF3007 and TZF3207 are designed to fit there, read the notes in TZF3x07 thread (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=85977.0) for more details.

 My advice would be to have bypass toggle switch for the TZF module, most time you won't probably use it (if you are building flanger pedal for guitar).

 T.
Title: Help debugging my EM build
Post by: juancra on March 04, 2011, 04:57:38 PM
Hi all

After a long time I decided to build an Electric Mistress using a MN3007. After all the soldering and since it's a big PCB,   I checked all vias and pads and spotted a few mistakes, that were corrected. Then I plugged the EM to my amp. There's when the problems came in: I started tweaking the Bias preset until I had flanged effects and oscillations of all sorts, but I couldn't hear the guitar .The only things I get are those oscillations and weird sounds. Using an audio probe and a audio signal generator I traced sound from the input and until the second 5k6 resistor (the one that goes to pin 3 of the 4558), but I checked the resistor and it's solderings and are fine. I've tested pin 7 of the 4558 and I've got a powerful oscillation such as those I've got on the output jack. I've switched the op amp to a tlc2272 I had on my bench and got no results. Any clues on what could be wrong?

Regards!
Sebastian
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: juancra on March 04, 2011, 10:19:40 PM
As a possibly useful note, I've removed the Mn3007 and I've got no dry signal out from the EM.

regards!
Title: Re: Help debugging my EM build
Post by: Thomeeque on March 05, 2011, 04:53:24 AM
 Give us DC voltages at all 4558 pins (relative to ground).. T.

 Edit: By audio probe check if the signal gets to pin 1 of 4558.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: 12Bass on March 05, 2011, 05:06:06 AM
As a possibly useful note, I've removed the Mn3007 and I've got no dry signal out from the EM.

If you've heard some BBD-type sounds with the MN3007 in place, then it appears that there is signal coming out of the BBD line.  Is the guitar signal getting into the BBD, or are you just hearing random BBD noises which are unrelated to the input?

Perhaps there is a break in the dry signal path.  The question is to find the open point.  If there's no signal getting into both the BBD and dry path, then the break should be before the BBD, which implies somewhere surrounding IC1A.  If the delay line is getting guitar signal, then you know that the circuit is okay up to that point, which would imply that the break is further on.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: juancra on March 05, 2011, 12:23:58 PM

Perhaps there is a break in the dry signal path. 

Indeed it was! I found a horrible solder point just before the first 5k6 resistor. Now I've got the effect running, but I presume it's still not working correctly.  I can get a lot of vibrato and chorus sounds, but no tipical 'Flanging' effects. I assume it needs more work on the trimpots, right?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: 12Bass on March 05, 2011, 03:35:23 PM
Indeed it was! I found a horrible solder point just before the first 5k6 resistor. Now I've got the effect running, but I presume it's still not working correctly.  I can get a lot of vibrato and chorus sounds, but no tipical 'Flanging' effects. I assume it needs more work on the trimpots, right?

Vibrato is what you should hear if only listening to the BBD output.  Are you hearing a modulated signal along with a dry signal?  VR1 will have a narrow "sweet spot" where the BBD signal is clean - it may take a bit of tweaking to get the bias set correctly.  From the sound of it, the clock speed may be set too low for flanging.  Try adjusting VR4 (clock trim) to raise the clock speed and see if that causes a flanging sound.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: juancra on March 05, 2011, 09:48:21 PM
Hi there!

If I turn the bias preset on one direction I only get dry signal, then I've got about 1/3 of the preset on which I have chorus signal too. I turned the clock pot to one direction and I can hear the sound speeding up, but i'm not listening flanging effect, just chorus. Besides this, I'm not seeing the effect of tweaking the feedback preset, does this play a part on the flanging sound too?

Cheers!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: pdub on March 18, 2011, 12:13:39 AM
I successfully built this today. It worked right away! It really sounds cool. Thanks to all who contributed to this great project!

I am trying to get the TZF Daughter board working now and I am running into some problems. Hopefully tomorrow I can figure it out.

Thanks, Charles.







Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: pdub on March 18, 2011, 11:14:51 AM
Here's a photo.

(http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu76/pdub_04/DIY/mistress.jpg)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on March 18, 2011, 06:44:28 PM
I successfully built this today. It worked right away! It really sounds cool. Thanks to all who contributed to this great project!

 Hi, Charles, that's great, congratulations! (and welcome on this forum! :))

I am trying to get the TZF Daughter board working now and I am running into some problems. Hopefully tomorrow I can figure it out.

 Wow, that's even greater :), you'de be the first who would fully verify this board (if you are talking about TZF3007 or TZF3207 module), I hope you'll sort those problems out.

Thanks, Charles.

 Thanks for your report and for the photo, cheers, T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: GodSaveMetal on March 18, 2011, 08:56:49 PM
I've made also this pedals two year ago but no photos here is my make up for the PCB:
Complete pedal parts--->>>>>>>>>>
(http://i.imgur.com/JfIMd.jpg)
Close up components side:::>>>>>>>>
(http://i.imgur.com/TkqWb.jpg)
Solder side complete...>>>>><<
(http://i.imgur.com/Am5ql.jpg)
Solder side close up;;;;;;;>>>>>
(http://i.imgur.com/2vaYO.jpg)
It's great a jet sound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: SISKO on March 18, 2011, 09:23:52 PM
Hey godsavemetal, thats a really coll build you got in there! How do you make (transfer) your pcb?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: GodSaveMetal on March 18, 2011, 10:00:13 PM
Hey godsavemetal, thats a really coll build you got in there! How do you make (transfer) your pcb?
The Iron method with couchette paper with toner transfer; the toner is by laser print the PCB, you have to iron this in the surface of the cooper PCB and put it in water; for 20 minutes, with your finger applied presion and peel the paper; with a toothbrush the surface an yet you have your PCB like this!!!! I USA you have a paper named PRESS N´PEEL in PERÚ that do not exist!!!!!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: ivanmarch on April 08, 2011, 07:56:04 AM
Amazing flanger!!!!!

Just finished it on the breadboard!!!
Working on the first attemp.

Tip for who wants to build one:   spend time to play around with the trim pots!
Bias and clock in particular. U can get many diff. sounds!

Thanks to all who made this happen!!!!!!
 
I will post few photos soon.

cheers.

ivan
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: GodSaveMetal on April 08, 2011, 10:38:38 AM
oldschoolanalog

Here is the send/return version:

http://www.4shared.com/document/xNi5MG7d/Mistress_MN3007_SendRet.html



Please Jorge r I want to make this whit the booster; but I don't understand how to do with the send/return and the out1 or out2; I think it would be with a 2dpt but how to active it with the MISTRESS?? I've made the one with no booster and the signal is very low!!! and these with the booster it will be better!!! please can you help??? thanks a lot it's a great job!!!!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Marcos Camara on April 18, 2011, 08:48:29 AM
The booster used in the Mistress is this:

http://www.4shared.com/document/Ak1WXK5d/Mini_Booster_EH.html


You can make an external PCB.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: GodSaveMetal on April 18, 2011, 10:37:30 AM
The booster used in the Mistress is this:

http://www.4shared.com/document/Ak1WXK5d/Mini_Booster_EH.html


You can make an external PCB.

Thanks a lot my friend; but I'm want an explanation of the mistress that already have a booster integrated the PCB how I connect the send return and the out 1 and the out 2 in the layout of JORGE????
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Marcos Camara on April 18, 2011, 12:21:22 PM
Remove the terminal of the capacitor of 220nF who joins of 100nF. In the end what remains of the 220nF you turn on the return. On the island was cut off one end of the 220nF cap, solder wire send.

Output 1, normal with no booster;
Output 2, with booster.

I do not know if that's what you want?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: GodSaveMetal on April 18, 2011, 01:04:53 PM
Remove the terminal of the capacitor of 220nF who joins of 100nF. In the end what remains of the 220nF you turn on the return. On the island was cut off one end of the 220nF cap, solder wire send.

Output 1, normal with no booster;
Output 2, with booster.

I do not know if that's what you want?

I want to make the booster send return with a 2PDT footswitch, I can do that???; thanks if I can use one of the out lugs for that??? I appreciate a drawing explanation; thanks a lot for it!!!!!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Marcos Camara on April 18, 2011, 01:19:27 PM
I'll make a design for easier then.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: GodSaveMetal on April 18, 2011, 02:22:04 PM
I'll make a design for easier then.

OK man thanks a lot!!! it is a great pedal!!! and function with 9V!!!!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: n.d on April 27, 2011, 08:04:47 PM
Obrigado, Jorge.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: n.d on April 28, 2011, 02:11:37 PM
Hey: I'd like to add a CV in, to override the LFO with the S+H signal from a FSH clone. Where do I have to interrupt the signal and put the one from the FSH? What voltage values must this be (range, I mean)?
Thanks.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on May 23, 2011, 10:30:07 AM
Guys, I'm in trouble again with this: after a long journey drilling and soldering the easiest to find parts I've started to order the hardest ones online and I have two versions of the CD4049, one Buffered and other Unbuffered. Which one should I buy for the MN3207 version of this pedal? I couldn't find the different datasheets on tge web.
I'm ordering from Banzai and you can see the two versions here: http://www.banzaimusic.com/CMOS-4000-Series/
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on May 23, 2011, 09:28:07 PM
Unbuffered.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on May 24, 2011, 05:41:25 AM
Thank's Dave! A lot. I was completly lost.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on May 27, 2011, 10:55:05 AM
Right... I finished my Electric Mistress today and played about with it, everything is working as it should and sounding great except I have a dead spot at the very top of the sweep, i'm sure i've read about this problem before but I can't remember the cause...

Granted I haven't played with the clock arrangements too much so I guess it could be that? It's definitley there though, I tried the pedal with a distortion in front and I could clearly hear the sweep stop while the distortion played through.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Fender3D on May 27, 2011, 11:10:54 AM
...I have a dead spot at the very top of the sweep, i'm sure i've read about this problem before but I can't remember the cause...
...
Any ideas?

Try lowering the highest clock frequency, maybe you've reached the point where MN can't work properly.
"Clock buffering" came after this after all.
It might be a layout issue (clock tracks too much long, or running too much near other tracks, thus suffering capacitive effect) though, not just a chip issue.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on May 27, 2011, 11:27:51 AM
Try lowering the highest clock frequency, maybe you've reached the point where MN can't work properly.

 I my case it was always already the clock generator (311+4013) itself causing clock drop-outs (IIRC 311 was still ticking, but 4013 was not processing signal properly from some point and outputs were frozen, probably due to cripled shape of the signal at 311 output).. Highest frequency at 4013 outputs I've got was around 1.2MHz..

 Scruffie, what exact diode do you have in the clock generator (between pins 3 and 7 of LM311)?

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on May 27, 2011, 12:07:37 PM
Try lowering the highest clock frequency, maybe you've reached the point where MN can't work properly.

 I my case it was always already the clock generator (311+4013) itself causing clock drop-outs (IIRC 311 was still ticking, but 4013 was not processing signal properly from some point and outputs were frozen, probably due to cripled shape of the signal at 311 output).. Highest frequency at 4013 outputs I've got was around 1.2MHz..

 Scruffie, what exact diode do you have in the clock generator (between pins 3 and 7 of LM311)?

 T.
Must just be the clock setting, as I said, I just got it flanging and left it, so i'm sure some tweaking will sort it out.

And I used a 1N4148.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on May 28, 2011, 01:22:34 PM

What exactly do you plan to do? Complete build of original (SAD1024) version of EM9V (Markus W. layout?) + this retrofit? Or you have already SAD1024 version completed and you need only SAD1024 replacement?

In the first case you may be interested in my EM3207 project. It looks like this at this moment:

(http://www.thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/DSCN9885_800.jpg) (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/DSCN9891_800.jpg)

Hey Thomeeque, what ever happened with this layout? I'm thinking another 3207 Electric Mistress with the TZF Mod in a 1590BB Could be nice...
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Govmnt_Lacky on May 28, 2011, 02:40:00 PM

What exactly do you plan to do? Complete build of original (SAD1024) version of EM9V (Markus W. layout?) + this retrofit? Or you have already SAD1024 version completed and you need only SAD1024 replacement?

In the first case you may be interested in my EM3207 project. It looks like this at this moment:

(http://www.thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/DSCN9885_800.jpg) (http://thmq.mysteria.cz/em3207/DSCN9891_800.jpg)

Hey Thomeeque, what ever happened with this layout? I'm thinking another 3207 Electric Mistress with the TZF Mod in a 1590BB Could be nice...

+1  ;D

Is there a sound clip of this in action? Are you going to share the layout? I am interested in an MN3207-based flanger.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: GodSaveMetal on May 29, 2011, 12:22:43 AM
yeah I'm too interesting in that layout and PCB also!!! please would you post that!!!!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on June 03, 2011, 09:34:40 AM

EM3207 (v1.1) - MN3207 based EHX Electric Mistress (9V) clone (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=91981.0)

 Roberto, Govmnt_Lacky, Scruffie - thanks for nudge :) T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Satchmoedie on October 11, 2011, 12:46:10 AM
I know I built a Paiaa or what ever they are OLD flanger kit from just the schematic. It called for the 1024, but at the time NTE had a 1024 type chip. Most of the things that were not on their version were internally connected and the schematic had them externally connected the same way, so I eliminated some of the pins connections and it worked fine using a VCO and compander and some other things for clocking and not the usual suspect chip(s). It worked fine. I like the buffer in this design. I have too tight a budget to pay $60 for an SAD 1024 right now.  :icon_cry: The MN series has worked well for me. I am crying about 1024 prices and dropped $10 on a 5000 chip that is analog computer delay line, and have no clue if it will work or not.   :icon_redface:  Try NTE's older books from the 1970s-80s. They made a 512 chip that some small shops still may have. It can be used much like the SAD 1024 and is the same thing as far as I can tell as it is a 512x2 chip. The pin out sure looks a lot alike to me, but I are not too smart~!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: antoniocnn on October 18, 2011, 08:56:25 AM
Sorry. I have a problem.
Why do 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007 burn 10R resistor?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on October 18, 2011, 09:06:24 AM
Sorry. I have a problem.
Why do 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007 burn 10R resistor?

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on February 07, 2012, 12:10:55 PM
Hi guys, I'm building the MN3207 retrofit with the layout designed by jorger. This is just to point out that the layout has a bug: the 22uF capacitor that is right next send/return holes has been moved in the silkscreen layout but NOT in the ready to transfer layout on the 2nd page of the pdf. So, if you don't need the TFZ S/R you can use that pads to place the 22uF capacitor but if you do you'll need to tweek it a little bit and solder the Send wire to one lug of the capacitor. I can't wait to finish it! Maybe tonight...
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on February 10, 2012, 01:28:20 PM
Just finished it and I have dry signal but no flanging :'(
Have to check everything... again...
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on February 10, 2012, 08:51:28 PM
hey guys, could someone please re-up the schematic for using an mn3007 for a sad1024?

i wanna fix my bud's old mxr echo, but don't wanna hassle with trying to find a sad1024 when i gotta bag of mn3007's

thank you!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: JRM on February 12, 2012, 10:55:17 AM
I've done the layout following your instructions, but I just modified the 3007's one because I'm too lazy and ignorant to make a new layout.
Here are the PCB and the layout for MN3207 retrofit. Please check'em and let me know if they're ok  :P
http://img203.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207pc.jpg/ (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207pc.jpg/)
http://img220.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207lo.jpg/ (http://img220.imageshack.us/i/sad1024retrofitmn3207lo.jpg/)

 I have checked layout picture and I'd say it's OK (good work with the graphic editor btw.!), just two small notes:

 - make somehow visible on the layout and the PCB, that it's not EM RF V0.1 to avoid further confusion with original MN3007 version (maybe just add N as N-channel to version number like V0.1N)
 - I have used same circuitry in my EM3207 and as I say above, I'm not 100% satisfied with the result yet - but you may be, it's really just a note ;)

 Good luck!

 T.
It's here. Mine is FLANGING :icon_biggrin: it was just a bridge to ground on the MN3207 circuit. Still got to tune the trim pots properly.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: trat rödenback on April 22, 2012, 05:43:55 AM
Hello,
I built the EM with the 3007 and it flanges happily. BUT it is very noisy. I have a lot of flanging going on even if the guitar isn't plugged in or if i'm not playing. Is this due to a faulty OP-Amp? Or maybe the gainboost at the end. I tried a fresh battery and a wallwart - both sound the same except the wallwart introduced some hum. I did an audio probe and the output of the mn3007 is not noisy but seems to have a tiny portion of the clock signal.... maybe i gave up too soon? If nothing helps i'd give the EM3207 a shot (although with the 3007).
Any help apreciated.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7219/6955468840_3069be90f1.jpg)

sorry for the quality. didnt have a camera so i scanned it.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: trat rödenback on April 22, 2012, 05:47:17 AM
oh, and I modified the layout a bit so i could squeeze it in a hammond 515-0910.
would it help if I posted audio examples?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: trat rödenback on April 22, 2012, 12:06:05 PM
here's a recording through a fender blues junior. the longer the delay time the more noise i get...
http://dl.tonfang.de/NoisyEM.mp3 (http://dl.tonfang.de/NoisyEM.mp3)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on April 22, 2012, 12:48:18 PM
longer delay always introduces more noise in analog bbd's i think.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Scruffie on April 22, 2012, 12:58:14 PM
longer delay always introduces more noise in analog bbd's i think.
This is true.

If anything is wrong (can't listen to the clip at the moment to tell) i'd put my money on you either have a wrong value, too much feedback or a cold joint is stopping some LPF working.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on April 22, 2012, 01:01:37 PM
hi scruffie,

i listened to his clip...the flanger sounds like it should, i think he made it kinda wet to make the problem more obvious, but it's just what the old guys used to call "blow"...a little noise in the background, and it DOES get more noticeable at the different settings.

i don't think it's anything to worry about...to my ears as an old guy, it's pretty quiet. once he's playing it won't really be noticeable. just a little bit of shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh in the background.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: trat rödenback on April 24, 2012, 07:02:39 AM
Hey! Thanks for your thoughts... hmm. Still, somehow the EM3207 seems more quiet in http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=91981.msg841053#msg841053 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=91981.msg841053#msg841053)

Maybe I'll give that a shot. Also a WAY smaller build. Anyone interested in my MN3007 EM ? It's based on jorge's layout but with switch and LED on the board.

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7097/7107322979_2e090de724.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mydocfots/7107322979/)
SS852912 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mydocfots/7107322979/) von test bue (http://www.flickr.com/people/mydocfots/) auf Flickr

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: 12Bass on April 24, 2012, 08:44:15 AM
Hey! Thanks for your thoughts... hmm. Still, somehow the EM3207 seems more quiet...

Not sure if there is a problem with your build or not.  However, the MN3007 should not be noisier than the MN3207, at least according to the datasheets.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on April 24, 2012, 09:07:39 AM
Not sure if there is a problem with your build or not.  However, the MN3007 should not be noisier than the MN3207, at least according to the datasheets.
MN3007 is quieter to my ears. I do use 12-15 VDC to power my 3007 builds though. Maybe that's the difference?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: pinkjimiphoton on April 24, 2012, 12:33:16 PM
trat,
what do ya want for it?

i may be interested...i'm a sucker for unwanted gadgets!!  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: alfafalfa on April 24, 2012, 12:39:01 PM
http://www.filefactory.com/file/complete.php/br45w20rdbj/ (http://www.filefactory.com/file/complete.php/br45w20rdbj/)

Here a very old ( 1974 I believe ) part of a song I played with my band back then . It has one of the very first electric mistress on the guitar in the backing track.  I always liked the moderately fast mode best.

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: alfafalfa on April 24, 2012, 12:45:01 PM
---
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: alfafalfa on April 24, 2012, 12:46:27 PM


Sorry this is the mp3 file , so much shorter.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/ia09sh4l9dh/n/flanger_part_Melodymaker.mp3 (http://www.filefactory.com/file/ia09sh4l9dh/n/flanger_part_Melodymaker.mp3)

Does anybody know a better upload host ?  Any suggestions ?

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: dgrech on May 23, 2012, 05:18:11 AM
Hi all.

I'm looking at building a Mistress type flanger and having found really good plans/posts/info for TDA1022 (EM1022) and MN3207 (EM3207) here I am seriously considering building one of these. The question is which one would you people recommend most?

Also, I'd like to thank everyone here for sharing their efforts and for the time put into this site and projects with a special thanks to Thomeeque for the EM1022 and EM3207 projects.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on May 24, 2012, 06:48:36 AM
Hi all.

I'm looking at building a Mistress type flanger and having found really good plans/posts/info for TDA1022 (EM1022) and MN3207 (EM3207) here I am seriously considering building one of these. The question is which one would you people recommend most?

Also, I'd like to thank everyone here for sharing their efforts and for the time put into this site and projects with a special thanks to Thomeeque for the EM1022 and EM3207 projects.

 Hi, my pleasure :) Definitely build one, you won't regret it ;)

 Are you able to get TDA1022 chip? With this chip you have theoretically better chance to get closer to the original EM character thanks to the same delay line length as the original EM used (512 cells). MN3x07 is twice longer and I (nor anybody else I know) did not succeed to make it work in the same delay range without unwanted side-effects. But there are other criteria (mainly gain/frequency and gain/clock characteristics), which differ between TDA and SAD anyway, that's why I say "theoretically". EM1022 project gives more added features (odd/even switch, volume knob, vibrato etc.) too, that's another fact to consider (you could add all these features to the EM3207 as well, but it's not there by default).

 EM3207 on the other hand is simplier build and MN3x07 chips are easier to buy. If you want simple EM like flanger, choose EM3207, I probably would.

 Both projects (all three actually, there's EM3007 yet) are verified.

 See demos, suit yourself, good luck.

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on May 24, 2012, 08:51:17 AM
The TDA1022 version has lots of cool switching options (vibrato, +/- f'back, etc.). Worth a look/see IMHO. ;)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: dgrech on May 28, 2012, 03:54:14 AM
Good morning Tomas and Dave,
thanks for your reply. I like the simplicity of the EM3007 but the love the the features on the EM1022. I think I can find the tda1022 here in the UK. I have looked for the EM3007 project but haven't found it yet. I'll have another look later on in the day.

DG
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on May 28, 2012, 04:37:58 AM
 Morning D.,

 EM3007 is little hidden, so just a small recapitulation:

 EM1022 project (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=74867.msg637491#msg637491)
 EM3207 (v1.1) project (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=91981.0)
 EM3007 (v1.1) project (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=91981.msg798618#msg798618)

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: dgrech on May 30, 2012, 03:39:00 AM
Cheers.  ;D

I'm still liking the EM1022 so provided I find components for it I'll be building that.

I'll let you know how it goes - but it might be a while - a bit busy these days.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on May 30, 2012, 11:49:30 AM
Go for it! You will have the 5th one in known captivity.  ;D
If you cant find the slide switches to fit the PCB, Small Bear has a nice one you can use as a substitute. You will have to change the pin spacing on the PCB artwork a bit, but if you get the switches in advance this is a no sweat issue. Alter the artwork and etch.
This one: http://www.smallbearelec.com/servlet/Detail?no=495  Better quality & action than the slide switches, IMHO. Well worth the extra money.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Prive on December 03, 2012, 04:29:34 AM
I'd like to build the Deluxe Electrix Mistress with mn3007, i read a lot here and there but i don't really know what to do, maybe build the GGG pcb and a second little pcb with the mn3007 circuit, what you think???

Thanks!
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: oldschoolanalog on December 03, 2012, 07:29:36 AM
Does it have to be the DEM?
There are nice PCB layouts around here for the 9V EM that already have the MN3007 retrofit in the artwork. A lot of work was done on this design and there are many verified builds.
Consider etching one. Or having somebody on the forum make one for you if you are going to buy one.
BTW; the 9VEM sounds great @ 12V.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: visualdistortion on August 08, 2014, 03:45:46 PM
Hi, I've an old EHX Electric Mistress but with no SAD1024, I've all the components (MN3007) except the 4049N, can I use this one?:
http://www.banzaimusic.com/CD4049-U.html

Thanks a lot
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: anotherjim on August 08, 2014, 04:40:13 PM
Often asked.
The 4049"N" is a far better driver because it has multiple stages per inverter - this is the "Buffered" version. The 4049"U" is un-buffered and is actually pretty poor at squaring up the edges of pulses (it gets more use as a pseudo op-amp in several stomp circuits).
I do wonder, if the design already provides the 2 opposite clock phases, if the 4050 couldn't be used instead. It isn't inverting, but it is definitely buffered.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: armdnrdy on August 08, 2014, 05:06:10 PM
Use this one for the reason that anotherjim stated.

http://www.banzaimusic.com/CD4049-buffered.html
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DrAlx on August 08, 2014, 06:15:35 PM
Use this one for the reason that anotherjim stated.

http://www.banzaimusic.com/CD4049-buffered.html

I have ordered lots of these buffered "B"chips from Banzai, and they are not quite as advertised !!!.
They are actually M74HC4049B1.
Larry spotted that the max supply according to the data sheet is 7V.

Having said that, I have used these chips as clock buffers on 5 different EM3207 type builds, all running a little under 9V supply and never had a problem with them.  I am guessing that is because everything is going at relatively low frequency for that chip (i.e. clock is only around 1MHz), and nowhere near the upper limit for the chip, so power dissipation is small.  I don't know what will happen if you run them with more than 9V supply (e.g. for a MN3007 type build).

Even though the unbuffered "U" chips that I have tried didn't keep the waveform square (easily seen using a scope) I could not hear much difference between the "U" chips and the "B" chips.
I have also noticed that the "U" chips are used in at least 2 other flangers (the Current Lover EM clone,  the Hartman Flanger (another EM clone)).
I don't know if there is some other version of the "U" chip that does a better job of keeping the waveform square.  I doubt it somehow.







Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Fender3D on August 08, 2014, 07:56:44 PM
...I don't know if there is some other version of the "U" chip that does a better job of keeping the waveform square.  I doubt it somehow.

Come on guys...
it's barely 1MHz, does it really need a buffer?
Have you ever try WITHOUT?

Anyway, you can use 2 mosfets one N and one P (or 2 transistors) per clock phase:
clock output at gates N's source to GND, P's source to Vcc and drains to BBD
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Mugshot on August 12, 2014, 11:52:26 PM
i currently have on bench an old Deluxe EM with a busted SAD1024. i etched the daughterboard and followed the connections to the wiring to the main board. however, i get no output; if any, there was only very faint signal and hum.

coupla questions:

1) i checked the MN3007 datasheet and saw pin1 connected to VDD and pin5 to GND. http://www.experimentalistsanonymous.com/diy/Datasheets/MN3007.pdf
the retrofit board has these the other way. what gives? is it because pin5 expects negative voltage? my head is so torched at the moment.

2) still with vintage DEM board, do i have to add decoupling caps and bias network (47K + 100K trim) to the input of the MN3007? do i also have to decouple the output of the retrofit board?

3) is there anything else i'd need to change?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: armdnrdy on August 13, 2014, 12:54:39 AM
If you look at the data sheet that you posted the link to, you'll see that the supply voltage is listed at -15V. for VDD.
Basically....Pin 1 has to be more negative than pin 5.
Out of all of the stomp box schematics that I have seen, The MN30XX series is rarely powered with negative voltage.

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: anotherjim on August 13, 2014, 11:33:45 AM
I think there's a difference in wanting squared up edges and driving load.
Buffered or Un-buffered, the last stage (the only stage in the un-buffered), is the same -  so it's drive capability should be the same. The Buffered will be better to square up a sloppy incoming clock, but may be no better in coping with the capacitive load of a BBD.
Also, some designs use 1 inverter driving 2 in parallel per clock line, so an un-buffered chip is given some help from the extra stage.

What might be considered when adding CMOS buffers, is that the load on the power supply is most felt during the switch in level - for a moment, both MOS transistors of a complementary pair are "ON" presenting a very low resistance across the power supply. With a buffered chip, 3 pairs in each inverter are on during the switch. Now put them in multiple - all switching at the same time. Well, consider that it could be doing you more harm than good ;)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: 12Bass on August 13, 2014, 04:34:41 PM
I seem to recall someone testing a triple buffer BBD clock arrangement and finding that it was actually worse than using only two in parallel.  On my SAD1024A A/DA build I have fairly healthy local supply bypassing.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Mugshot on August 13, 2014, 09:30:59 PM
If you look at the data sheet that you posted the link to, you'll see that the supply voltage is listed at -15V. for VDD.
Basically....Pin 1 has to be more negative than pin 5.
Out of all of the stomp box schematics that I have seen, The MN30XX series is rarely powered with negative voltage.



ah i see. thanks for that.

2) still with vintage DEM board, do i have to add decoupling caps and bias network (47K + 100K trim) to the input of the MN3007? do i also have to decouple the output of the retrofit board?

3) is there anything else i'd need to change?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on August 14, 2014, 02:01:20 AM
 Hi,

 we need exact schematic of your DEM first - if you don't have it, please match your vintage DEM with one of these (http://www.metzgerralf.de/elekt/stomp/mistress/index.shtml) (preferably by board number e.g. EH-5150-B)..

 T.

Btw. what you mean by "no output" - are you talking about output from the retrofit or from the whole effect? Because even with non working SAD or retrofit you should get clean signal at the DEM output.

EDIT: Hmm, actually, if you are sure there was SAD1024 (not RD5106A) it is probably safe to say that you don't need to add any extra parts (or extra mods on the DEM board), just fit retrofit there instead of SAD and adjust trimmers. But if you are not getting clean sound at the out now, problem lies elsewhere, not in BBD line.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Mugshot on August 15, 2014, 01:55:48 AM
Hi,

 we need exact schematic of your DEM first - if you don't have it, please match your vintage DEM with one of these (http://www.metzgerralf.de/elekt/stomp/mistress/index.shtml) (preferably by board number e.g. EH-5150-B)..

 T.

Btw. what you mean by "no output" - are you talking about output from the retrofit or from the whole effect? Because even with non working SAD or retrofit you should get clean signal at the DEM output.

EDIT: Hmm, actually, if you are sure there was SAD1024 (not RD5106A) it is probably safe to say that you don't need to add any extra parts (or extra mods on the DEM board), just fit retrofit there instead of SAD and adjust trimmers. But if you are not getting clean sound at the out now, problem lies elsewhere, not in BBD line.

thanks for the reply, man. it's this one, http://www.metzgerralf.de/elekt/stomp/mistress/images/deluxe-electric-mistress-v3-schematic.gif

i have changed the transformer to 220V and confirmed proper voltage (thru the 15V regulator) is supplied to all parts of the circuit.

with the retrofit board detached, i probed the thing: there is nice output on the 4558's inverting input (pin2), but considerably lower volume on pin1, and an even lower output on pin7 (very faint). adjusting the gain trimmer does nothing, so as with the bias trim. the balance trim i think is useless with the retrofit board, and maybe i can already remove it or short it out.

with the retrofit on, im getting loud hum on the 3904 emitter.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Govmnt_Lacky on August 15, 2014, 07:21:10 AM
Posting some voltages (as in the Debugging thread) might help identify the problem. Show voltages without AND with the adapter board  ;)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on August 15, 2014, 07:54:17 AM
thanks for the reply, man. it's this one, http://www.metzgerralf.de/elekt/stomp/mistress/images/deluxe-electric-mistress-v3-schematic.gif

 OK, this circuitry requires something at place of SAD actually even to pass dry signal. IC1a derives DC bias voltage from the SAD output (see 47k+5uF at positive input) - without SAD output it is biased to 0VDC, it will not pass audio signal (or very poorly).

with the retrofit board detached, i probed the thing: there is nice output on the 4558's inverting input (pin2), but considerably lower volume on pin1

 It sounds fishy - you should not hear much on negative input (right, guys?) and at output you should hear at approx. equally* loud signal as on the IC9a output.

 Post voltages of IC1 pins at least for starters..

 T.

* IC1a gain depends on frequency partially, unity gain is around 300Hz
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: DrAlx on August 15, 2014, 10:53:15 AM
Just looking at how that very first op-amp (IC9a) is biased.
There is a DC path from pin 3 to the output of the other op-amp (IC1a)
So if IC1a is not biased correctly than neither is IC9a.
So the BBD output is needed to set the bias for both op-amps.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on August 15, 2014, 11:07:25 AM
Just looking at how that very first op-amp (IC9a) is biased.
There is a DC path from pin 3 to the output of the other op-amp (IC1a)
So if IC1a is not biased correctly than neither is IC9a.
So the BBD output is needed to set the bias for both op-amps.

 Wow, right, totally missed that!

 So to check audio path without SAD and retrofit inserted connect pins 2 (or 15) and 6 (or 12) of SAD socket.

 Btw: check pinout of retrofit's Q1, I recall some issues with Eagle package I was using those days, 180° rotated to usual 2N3904..
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Fender3D on August 15, 2014, 01:25:11 PM
If you subbed the schematic at page 1 on this thread, you may try lifting Q1 and connect MN's pins 7-8 directly to gain trimmer.
I did this in my micro chorus retrofit and it works... I guess 10K is too much load for MN, maybe 47K will work better...  again maybe you'll have to lower the 160K resistor to restore a better wet/dry balance
This way you should be able to feed a proper bias with the trimmer on board.

Should the above not work then you should decouple input and output of the schematic above by placing 2 caps (one to MN pin 3, the other at Q1 emitter), 1 resistor at Q1 emitter (10K-100K) and a gain trimmer + 100K to MN's pin3; lift the 47K resistor going to the gain trim and connect it at board bias trimmer's wiper (trimmer near IC1b).
This way, board trimmer will feed bias for op-amps and retrofit bias trimmer will feed bias for BBD.

It might be not a "perfect" hack but it should work, try and report, we may then check if other mods are needed to work properly.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Mugshot on August 18, 2014, 01:50:51 AM
thanks for the replies guys. i havent seen any vintage DEMs on this thread using the retrofit board to compare the results, hence the clarifications. i followed your suggestions on the first page for the connections, btw.

i will be posting voltages tonight guys.

If you subbed the schematic at page 1 on this thread, you may try lifting Q1 and connect MN's pins 7-8 directly to gain trimmer.
I did this in my micro chorus retrofit and it works... I guess 10K is too much load for MN, maybe 47K will work better...  again maybe you'll have to lower the 160K resistor to restore a better wet/dry balance
This way you should be able to feed a proper bias with the trimmer on board.

Should the above not work then you should decouple input and output of the schematic above by placing 2 caps (one to MN pin 3, the other at Q1 emitter), 1 resistor at Q1 emitter (10K-100K) and a gain trimmer + 100K to MN's pin3; lift the 47K resistor going to the gain trim and connect it at board bias trimmer's wiper (trimmer near IC1b).
This way, board trimmer will feed bias for op-amps and retrofit bias trimmer will feed bias for BBD.

It might be not a "perfect" hack but it should work, try and report, we may then check if other mods are needed to work properly.

cant access the "regular" 9V schem right now, but i think i saved a copy somewhere. i guess i will have to mod the stages of the vintage DEM if the first suggestion doesnt work. i'll try firing up the iron tonight.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Govmnt_Lacky on August 18, 2014, 11:50:05 AM
Just want to throw this out there....

You guys know that there is already a fully tested and proven DEM build that runs off the RD5106A BBD (about the same price as the MN3007) and it sounds GREAT!!!

Do a search for "The Gilmour"

Just thought I would throw that out there.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Mugshot on August 18, 2014, 11:06:22 PM
here are the voltages i got for the vintage DEM (with the retrofit on, based on this schematic http://www.metzgerralf.de/elekt/stomp/mistress/images/deluxe-electric-mistress-v3-schematic.gif)

78L15 puts out 9.7V from the 11.23V rectified supply.

LM741
1) 0.0V
2) 6.03V
3) 6.03V
4) 0.0V
5) 0.0V
6) 6.2V
7) 8.87V
8) 0.0V

RC4558
1) 0.59V
2) 0.53V
3) 2.23V
4) 0.0V
5) 6.07V
6) 5.85V
7) 5.65V
8) 8.87V

LM311
1) 0.0V
2) 1.95-3.15V (sweeps)
3) 1.6-2.37V (sweeps)
4) 0.0V
5) 8.87V
6) 8.87V
7) 5.8-7.6V (sweeps)
8) 8.87V

LM324N
1) 1.4-6.7V (sweeps)
2) 4.04V
3) 3.3-4.7V
4) 8.87V
5) 1.29-1.65V (sweeps)
6) 1.29-1.6V (sweeps)
7) 1.4-3.3V (sweeps)
8) 3.42-4.6V (sweeps)
9) 4.08V
10) 4.08V
11) 0.0V
12) 1.03V
13) 1.03V
14) 1.03V

CD4013BE
1) 7.69V
2) 1.13V
3) 6.45-8.03V
4) 0.0V
5) 1.0V
6) 0.0V
7) 0.0V
8) 0.0V
9) 0.0V
10) 0.0V
11) 0.0V
12) 0.0V
13) 8.9V
14) 8.9V

2N5087
E 8.2V
B 7.75V
C 2.5-1.7V (sweeps)

RETROFIT BOARD

CD4049UBE
1) 8.95V
2) 8.86V
3) 0.0V
4) 0.0V
5) 8.89V
6) 1.08V
7) 0.0V
8) 8.9V
9) 8.9V
10) 0.0V
11) 8.9V
12) 0.0V
13) 0.04V
14) 0.0V
15) 8.9V
16) 0.12V

MN3007
1) 8.2V
2) 0.0V
3) 0.56V
4) 0.58V
5) 0.0V
6) 8.9V
7) 7.7V
8) 7.7V

2N3904
C 8.2V
B 7.7V
E 7.37V

i tried the first suggestion of lifting the BJT on the retrofit board and tying the MN's out output directly. nope, no dice.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Fender3D on August 19, 2014, 05:59:34 AM
If you want 15V from your 78L15, you should feed it with more than 15V...

At a first glance MN's pins 2-6 show you have no clock, and bias voltage is way too low at pin 3
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Govmnt_Lacky on August 19, 2014, 07:43:18 AM
78L15 puts out 9.7V from the 11.23V rectified supply.

If you want to get 15V from the regulator, you have to feed it AT LEAST near 17.5 to 18VDC. OTherwise... why bother having the regulator in there right?  ;D
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Thomeeque on August 19, 2014, 08:51:55 AM
If you want to get 15V from the regulator, you have to feed it AT LEAST near 17.5 to 18VDC.

 You can buy slightly more expensive Low Dropout Regulator, e.g. LM2940CT-15 (http://www.gme.cz/img/cache/doc/002/214/lm2940ct-15-datasheet-1.pdf) should be happy from 15.5 volts up (but please double check yet, I may be wrong).

You guys know that there is already a fully tested and proven DEM build that runs off the RD5106A BBD (about the same price as the MN3007) and it sounds GREAT!!!

 If it is possible to buy RD5106A, than it is maybe better option (MN3007 is too long BBD to make perfect retrofit for EM)

 T.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Mugshot on August 20, 2014, 01:13:23 AM
If you want 15V from your 78L15, you should feed it with more than 15V...



IIRC i simply subbed a 12-0-12 trafo (or was it 9-0-9?) for the busted 110V trafo it had. . i might as well use the outer lugs of the secondary coil of the trafo to go over/within the rated voltage the regulator needs.

Quote
At a first glance MN's pins 2-6 show you have no clock, and bias voltage is way too low at pin 3

how should it behave? this is my first time using bucket brigades.
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Fender3D on August 20, 2014, 05:51:37 AM
You have no clock @ MN's pins 2-6 and @ 4013's pins 1-2. (you should have ~1/2 Vcc)

If you attach a scope probe there, you should have a square wave @ ~35KHz-1MHz (double these values if you messed with clock setting as you should with retrofit board..).

BBD's bias should be ~1/2Vcc. Check setting procedure for a proper hmm... setting

BTW:

you said:
Quote
i currently have on bench an old Deluxe EM with a busted SAD1024

Are you sure it's SAD's fault or it's because the lack of clock?
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Mugshot on August 26, 2014, 10:23:40 PM
You have no clock @ MN's pins 2-6 and @ 4013's pins 1-2. (you should have ~1/2 Vcc)

If you attach a scope probe there, you should have a square wave @ ~35KHz-1MHz (double these values if you messed with clock setting as you should with retrofit board..).

BBD's bias should be ~1/2Vcc. Check setting procedure for a proper hmm... setting

BTW:

you said:
Quote
i currently have on bench an old Deluxe EM with a busted SAD1024

Are you sure it's SAD's fault or it's because the lack of clock?

im guessing it's the BBD, mainly. i subbed the DEM's bbd in a working clone theory, and no nothing.

will check the biasing of the clock later.

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: electronicnoobblog on July 11, 2015, 03:31:53 PM
Hello,

I'm not sure if here is a correct place to ask my question.

I have old MXR Flanger 117 - it was shoot to death via hi voltage spike from faulty power converter (external from 230V to 110V) in 80's.
I got this device without brain called SAD1024 and with notice - it was tried to fix but no positive result.

I done lot of searching and finally got Reticon SAD1024 but it is counterfeit (fake part) so i give up... the price for genuine is around 100USD looking at ebay.

Same time, anyway i went through flanger board  replacing all faulty IC-s - and finally manage to get on my scope 4 square clocks lines on SAD1024 socket (i'm unsure about frequency being correct because don't have anything to compare with).

I see in this topic about retrofitting SAD1024 by MN3007 and board.

I know this topic is to other effect but maybe someone know it possible to fit MN3007 in my use?

If someone of You can help me little bit i will be happy to read You

regards

Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: 12Bass on July 11, 2015, 05:51:30 PM
From the original MXR schematic, it appears that the SAD1024A is used with the two 512-stage sections in series, making a 1024-stage BBD.  So, it should be possible to use an MN3007 with some modifications.  The madbean Collosalus MXR 117 clone provides an example of how it can be done: http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Collosalus/Collosalus2015.pdf
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: Fender3D on July 11, 2015, 07:06:59 PM
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78741.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78741.0)
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: electronicnoobblog on July 14, 2015, 02:10:31 AM
From the original MXR schematic, it appears that the SAD1024A is used with the two 512-stage sections in series, making a 1024-stage BBD.  So, it should be possible to use an MN3007 with some modifications.  The madbean Collosalus MXR 117 clone provides an example of how it can be done: http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Collosalus/Collosalus2015.pdf

I check on them but they don't have PCB-'s available.

After reading thread's at Your forum, right now i would go to replace whole PCB inside and left only original enclosure.
 
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78741.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78741.0)

I see Your schematic and i can see PCB silkscreen You posted here:

(http://www.wizardinside.it/foto/schemi/flange_brd.gif)

It was long time ago, but maybe You still have pcb etch-able layout and could share?

I believe that eatching and fitting new board inside would be the best option.


Regards
Title: Re: 9V Electric Mistress retrofit with MN3007
Post by: 12Bass on July 14, 2015, 04:47:11 AM
Madbean shows the Collosalus PCB as available for $14.  I provided that link as a way of showing how the MN3007 could be used in place of the SAD1024A.  If you look carefully at the Collosalus schematic (or Fender3D's link), it is possible to see the necessary circuit modifications. 

Another option is to build a small MN3007 daughterboard which plugs into the existing BBD socket.  This only has a few components and is not that complicated, but it helps if you read through the previously linked thread and study the differences between the MN3007 and SAD1024A in order to understand the circuit.

In any case, there is no simple "plug and play" solution.  Some DIY work will be necessary to swap BBDs.....