Hello everyone im glad i found this great site, anyway i have tried numerous overdrive-distortion pedal and none seam to achieve what im looking for,the van halen 1 sound, so i thought about building a bsiab II pedal i have heard good things about this pedal,i was wonder if this pedal can achieve the van halen 1 sound(first album tone),i play though high gain amps and it seams to me when you listen to van halen 1 it sounds like its beyond high gain if you know what i mean,i have read all the early 70s interviews about Ed and what he used to achieve that tone but i take those early interviews with a grain of salt,alot of BS,i have owned and played early marshall plexis and superleads none of them sounded like that,i also tried the variac thing and that didnt do much,even modded marshall dont achieve that tone so thats why i believe and many other guitar players believe that Eddie did have some type of overdrive-distortion pedal in front of his amp to achieve the van halen 1 sound,if you listen to van halen II and the rest of the van halen albums none of them have that type of over the top crunch,edgeness that was achieved on van halen 1 so i just wanted to get your inputs and thoughts,thanks.........
Yeah i know what you mean about interviews and stuff about how musicians get there sound and it's usually biased by who sponsors there equipment, eg every Van halen 5150 amp head weather its a peavy or the new fender one he now uses "this is the best i have played " quotes etc.
Anyway Van Halen did use Plexi's on the 78 era sounds and i do believe he also used MXR dist+ ( unknown if it was modded or not)
I can say the BSIAB11 goes a long way to getting that VanHalen sound especially if a phaser is used as well
The closest i have got is with my Marshall JMP1 set on a clean ch which is set quite bright with a BSIAB11 before it, with gain set at about 3/4 and the tone set nearly full up and the phaser set for slow/medium for lead. with those settings i can get a good eruption sound with the phaser off its a good rhythm. With the phaser on you can also get a very accurate "atomic punk" intro.
I'd so go for it and build the BSIAB11
I think some of the unique sound came from the frankenstrat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenstrat
Quote from: MoltenVoltage on November 19, 2009, 01:47:26 AM
I think some of the unique sound came from the frankenstrat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenstrat
Do you have a tone control on your guitar?
No tone control, a paf pickup is clean to begin with,the first album(van halen 1)all the non-trem songs were done with a so-called ibanez destroyer(explorer guitar)and all the trem songs were done with the frankenstrat guitar,Ed so-called, took a paf pickup from a 1961 gibson es-335 guitar and stuck it in the frankenstrat,for effects Ed did use a original mxr phase 90,mxr flanger,ep3 echoplex,mxr 6 band eq,now i do believe but Ed doesnt say,when you listen to van halen 1 could he have used the original mxr distortion +,does it sound like it when you listen to van halen 1 ?,there is something in front of the amp to achieve that type of over the top crunch and edge,no stock marshall plexi or for that matter modded plexi will give you that type of crunch,tubes can only distort so much.If i did build a bsiab II pedal or some type of pedal that can achieve the van halen 1 sound i would like to have someone build it for me,im not very good with a soldering iron if thats possible.
Oh man total geekdom going on here :icon_eek:
Plexi + BSIAB II + Phaser + (EQ to your hearts content) goes along way to getting the sound
Thats eaiser said then done.....
I'm sure with a good amp/effects set-up you can get very close, without Eddie's brain and fingers close will have to be acceptable.
I guess I just don't get the obsession of trying to get the "exact" sound of Van Halen, SRV, etc. There are so many dynamics involved other than the technology that go into it. I can get pretty darn close to the sound of these guys. Not the exact sound because I don't hold my pick exactly the same way, apply the same pressure on certain strings,etc. But you get my drift. This discussion goes on foreeeeeeeeeeeeever on how do I get the sound of so and so on the such and such album. You could have the exact same setup and equipment and still not nail it exactly.
Preface:
The tone heard on the record player speakers has been through many a process in addition to pickup>effect>amp>Speaker.
100w Plexi is such a nice name, and such a brutal beast, scale it down if you want to tame it without getting in trouble, that amp is a cop magnet, requires gargantuan speaker force transduction etc.
There's a tendancy to skip right over a make or break topic...the room, or hall, or theatre. the early reflective surfaces and distant RS's, their accoustic properties etc., is a make or break situation, how well does the system fit' in the room[s ["side-chambers"?, size, shape and surface composition matters, scaling down the system to what the room will accomodate is strongly recommended, 2watts is about right for nice sound, and loud without drums in a large living room.
...starting at the speaker end of the chain...
Cabinet: closed back, doesn't have to be a 4x12'' 1960, but the basice volume per cone area dimension is a little tight [small], this is the design to get or look at when mulling designs [the Marshall 4x12'' cabinets are built a certain way so as to have a bouncy projection, also called 'punchy'].
Speaker: This is one of those things I just can't see, same with the box and the guitar body, hard to tell what is actually in it. Greenbacks or similar I suppose, something with easy break over and punch-projection.
So now you have a cabinet with X# of speakers [choose for amplitude = application, too big is just too big to punch a certain way, turning down is what you don't want to have to do, cranking is what you'll need to do].
OT: I think Ed did real good here, better or best is a great place to start, second best tends to sit in the closet too much.
PT: Same here, very smooth power supply that is 'crunched' is, I believe part of the distortion/tone of the sound you're looking for, cheap probably won't cut it.
Now you get to the 'amp'...18watt comes to mind, mind that it is Loud through effecient speakers, say 1:2 as far as amp watts/speaker watts.
You'll have to pick tubes etc., I like 'better' [premium] tubes, Blackplates or 'best NOS' I reserve opinion on.
Then some dirtbox..more on that later.
Pickups...Dimarzio Super Distortion pickup, bridge [just a hot, well rounded suggestion I know well], something hot @@R@ate.
I also like maple necks that are skinney between the frets and back for the brightness and ability to use finger mechanics [pulloffs/hammerons].
Now, last but not least, Distortion. Distortion + is a fine platform to discuss, if it's not grinding fast enough, boost what goes into it, then use the topology, choose where to select values, add switches/extra knobs etc.
Choose the distortion circuit, modify it.
I used to build 2, and 'race' them. Setting one up with say BTB symmetric diodes and treble / gain [and pre-booster] settings, the other with...something else, then A/B test.
Boil and filter the distortion box down to where it's a 2 knobber again, perhaps an added switch.
I'm using PAF pickups and a pre-Dist+ booster. Phase 90...they say script logo, but researching the circuit pretty much allows anything from the MXR-VH-90 through script and block logo 90's.
Reverb for sure, compression/eq?
PA or stereo, but mostly automotive speakers is what I'm hearing when I'm hearing VH.
Mic, board, processing, bigamps>PA speakers thing certainly helps add dimensions to the guitar sound mix, a whole different sound than guitar-effects-amp, sounds like all that's in there too.
That 6 band MXR EQ pedal is known for adding some flavor of its own. I definitely do not hear a DIST+. He does not sound like Randy Roads! There was someone on this board a couple years ago making the MXR EQ pedal saying it worked better as a boost than anything else he had ever tried. And I know it's pretty amazing the different tones you can coax out of a overdrive or amp by using an EQ pedal in front of it. That is something people always miss when trying to cop the Slash tone too. He hits the Marshall with an EQ'd boost.
But I don't hear DIST+. Not at all. I hear boosted tube amp, like this:
http://www.runoffgroove.com/salvo.html
Scroll down to the Omega sounds. Hit Clip 3.
from Wikipedia:
Tuning
Though rarely discussed, one of the most distinctive aspects of Van Halen's sound was Eddie's tuning of the guitar. Before Van Halen, most distorted, metal-oriented rock consciously avoided the use of the major third interval in guitar chords, creating instead the signature power chord of the genre. When run through a distorted amplifier, the rapid beating of the major third on a conventionally tuned guitar is distracting and somewhat dissonant.[citation needed]
Van Halen developed a technique of flattening his B string slightly so that the interval between the open G and B reaches a justly intonated, beatless third. This consonant third was almost unheard of in distorted-guitar rock and allowed Van Halen to use major chords in a way that mixed classic hard rock power with "happy" pop. The effect is pronounced on songs such as "Runnin' With the Devil", "Unchained", and "Where Have All the Good Times Gone?".
With the B string flattened the correct amount, chords in some positions on the guitar have more justly intonated thirds, but in other positions the flat B string creates out-of-tune intervals. As Eddie once remarked to Guitar Player:
A guitar is just theoretically built wrong. Each string is an interval of fourths, and then the B string is off. Theoretically, that's not right. If you tune an open E chord in the first position and it's perfectly in tune, and then you hit a barre chord an octave higher, it's out of tune. The B string is always a mother@#$%er to keep in tune all the time! So I have to retune for certain songs. And when I use the Floyd onstage, I have to unclamp it and do it real quick. But with a standard-vibrato guitar, I can tune it while I'm playing.
+1 Petemoore Stuff you hear on home speakers has been heavily processed, even if attempts were made to keep the original sound. The actual recording process is still imperfect enough (now 30 years ago) that trying to cram a Raging Marshal Stack (RMS) into 5" speakers is not going to work. Thru my own recording I realize that EQ changes, Dynamics change, etc. Where is Ted Templeman (record producer) in a Box. He did a great job of capturing the RMS of EV.
Having said that, using some of the better distortions from around hear with the correct EQ (including guitar, amp, speakers, etc.)(which will vary from guitar to amp to speakers to room to recording process) will get you close...
:icon_cool: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_twisted: :icon_wink:
Over the years I have been a session player, engineer and producer. Like most people I started out trying to capture the sound of my amp, or someone else's, and most always failed. Even when I succeeded the results where often quite "wrong" to sit well in the mix and a lot of post processing was required. Now, when I record my own guitar I tend to set up a cabinet in the recording room and take my amp head and all of my effects and set up in the control room. I "build" the guitar sound from the control room, listening through studio monitors, playing along with the mix. Often I will get great sounds then wander out into the room where the cabinet is to listen. The guitar sounds are often hideous! It is the combination of guitar/effects/amp/speaker/room acoustics/mic/placement/mixer/monitors and, most importantly, the player that create the final sound in the control room.
Should you abandon the search for the EVH tone? No, but don't get too caught up in the details. The guitar sound you are looking for probably never existed except on your home stereo. You will find his tone more in your fingers than with any piece(s) of gear.
A plexi or 2203/2204 may not nail it but I think it is the place to start. I've always thought that technique is important but without out the right rig Eddie would NOT get the sound he does. Read the EVH thread on the Metroamp forum. A member named Rockstah has EVH clips with different rigs. I think the 2203 with low filtering nails it but others prefer other clips. Alot of people think EVH slaved his amp into another power amp and that clip sounds good too(1959). I read one post where someone said he could tell Rockstah had been practising. Rockstahs comment was that he hadn't practiced at all, he just finally had a rig that allowed him to do it. I can't play like EVH and don't want to copy him but I do want to try playing through a similar setup. I disagree with anyone who says it's ALL in the fingers. The hard part is coming up with and crafting the songs, which does require great technique. Just my opinion.
One thing that's missing, I forgot to add earlier, is that scaling is different of course than stack or stax, in that there is a phase delay [and other cabinet/room resonances] involved with having multiples of speakers.
This seems to be true of multiple amplifiers in general and in a particular instance: how much phase shifter sound is heard in front of an amp/speaker which sees only the guitar pickup, but happens to be sitting next to a guitar>dist>phase shifter effected amp/speaker.
Check out some of his live videos on youtube. You'll find that he didn't have the same sound live. Of course, he took newer production marshalls on the road with him instead of the old plexi, but still, like mentioned earlier, a good bit of the sound was done in the studio.
this is about the tallest order in stompbox design, right up there with a tube simulator.
the slaving thing is nice sounding, and will get you pretty close. i do not believe Ed slaved early on (I'm a member of the metro forum, we talk about this all day at the EVH section) but slaving is a good way to cop the sound you want. Do not underestimate the importance of the EP-3, the MXR 6-band, Sunset Sound, or Ted Templeton and Don Landee in the studio helping produce the final tone on the record.
I can tell you all kinds of things to dispute slaving, and point out the lack of evidence for it, etc, but at the end of the day it does sound good. So if someone were to ask me how to get Ed's sound, I'd tell them to give slaving a try despite the fact he likely didn't use it until the early 80's, when we have proof he slaved into those awesome H&H poweramps.
The basic key to the early album sound is just a cranked plexi hitting the speakers and getting gobs of speaker distortion. In the studio there were two mic's set to different spots on one speaker, essentially one was for the lows and the other was for the highs. There may have also been some EQ in post. The recording was then put through a high-end speaker in the Sunset Sound reverb room to create a wet track. The end product on the album was a result of good production and a fantastic guitar player. It's not the type of thing you can slap together in your spare time, or hope to get from a stompbox. Slaving though, does have it's sonic appeal, so I suggest giving that a shot first. Slaving also allows you to run time based effects after the first amplifier, yielding less noise in the case of old tape delays and probably better sounding modulation since it doesn't have to run into a wide open plexi.
As has been stated, all this will do nothing for you without Ed's hands. More specifically, Ed's 1978 hands. Unfortunately, you will have to settle for having your own sound :icon_biggrin:
One word: "Variac". I submit to you that he could have gotten that sound simply by cranking the amp while it was operating on a Variac, which is something that he reportedly used to do back in the day. What that does is lower the B+ voltage in the amp, which in turn lowers the headroom, which in turn makes it distort more. This might also account for the crunch in the tone. He might have also used a pedal of some sort, too, but I think his use of the Variac is probably the biggest factor in his tone on the early albums.
http://mr5150.vhvault.com/evh-brown-sound.html
Look at Wamplers Pinnacle pedal. This is a pedal you can buy, since you mentioned you are not good with a iron. Or if you want to try I do have the schematic for this pedal, it is a modified BSIAB2. Or check out the Thor by Runoffgroove .com. I also have been looking for the Brown sound, and I like the Pinnacle, and Thor, so far.
I think I get pretty close with my Crunch Box, some EQ and some reverb. I think Eddy could have played through anything in this tonal ball park and made it sound great.
Forgot to mention Metropoulos amps. Check out plexireplicas.com, and look at 12000 series. Curious to know what they sound like, or to see a schematic.?
Got my 50w Plexi working last night, Ceriatone board with Magnetic Component transformers, fuse holders/pots from Apexjr. I guess my next stop is attenuator/ variac. Also been checking out the power scaling boards, kind of like a variac but keeps the heaters at 6.3v. Ever played a cranked plexi, cut the power off, and kept playing? It's magic for about 5 seconds. I remember thinking I wish I could get it to stay like this. I think maybe Eddie figured it out. I guess if you slave, the amp is a stompbox so ok to talk about on this forum? Maybe need a channel switcher to actually stomp though.
I know the studio adds a lot to the sound. Even the Rockstah clips I was talking about have a little reverb added with protools. But you have to start the tone quest somewhere. I heard VH live with SH, not the record but still sounded pretty good to me.
Try the metal simplex. I changed the diode to a zener and the input cap to a 2.2 and it has that loose, edgy plexi thing going...
Quote from: spaceace76 on November 19, 2009, 08:48:43 PM
The end product on the album was a result of good production and a fantastic guitar player. It's not the type of thing you can slap together in your spare time, or hope to get from a stompbox.
I agree with this 100%. People tend to get caught up with copping the sound they hear on a record. But first they need to understand and separate what part of the sound is raw guitar tone and what part of it is production. As others have mentioned, the reverb and mic-ing are a big part of that sound. With slaving, as spaceace76 mentioned, you can put your time-delay fx behind the distorting amp. With that setup if you run that into a stereo wet-dry or wet-wet pair of amps, you can start to mimic some of the production aspects of the sound. Once you start experimenting with this stuff, you start realizing that the exact distortion sound or technique is much less significant than you first thought it was.
The same goes for Page and those early LZ records. The ambient mic-ing and production is a big part of what makes the guitar sound huge. And for the huge tone Iommi got on the early Black Sabbath records, try doubling the guitar with a delay and running in stereo (after tuning to C# or course). A lot of those guitar tracks were double-tracked.
I suck on guitar, so even if I had his exact setup, I couldn't sound like him. That said, I did have a rig that came extremely close to it when played by someone who could play. (basically, anyone other than me. :) ) It was a Plexi6V6 that I built through a 2x12 sealed cab w/ well broken-in greenbacks in a mostly concrete big-a$$ box of a room. The room added the reverb part. :) At the amp show, one of the locals here who can probably play every van halen song exactly as intended fired it up with my Agile AL-3000 (Les Paul copy. But a really good one. Couldn't do any whammy-bar dive-bombs though). All of us were floored. I've got the recordings here somewhere and I'll link to them when I find them.
I've played the same setup in the same place, but it just sounded like some dork trying to play the guitar.
I built a Thor that comes pretty close, but it was too dark for me.
Matt.
dont forget the pickup. Eddie used an old Gibson PAF. most of the time these came with non matched coils, since they just "wound until full". the missmatch in numer of turns often gives a little extra edge to the high end that has bite but doesnt screech, if you know what I meen...I personally love the PAF replicas Gibson make these days. especially the Burstbucker #2( I love the way these clean up when turning down the volume knob)...but unfortuanatly, they are not waxed, so you need to do that yourself before installing...and also they cost A LOT ( but stay away from Classic 57...dull, tired and boring sounding in comparison)...and using a single 4x12 loaded with 25watters when running a 100watter on full gives you speaker saturation too...
j
Quote from: DougH on November 20, 2009, 09:19:21 AM
Quote from: spaceace76 on November 19, 2009, 08:48:43 PM
The end product on the album was a result of good production and a fantastic guitar player. It's not the type of thing you can slap together in your spare time, or hope to get from a stompbox.
I agree with this 100%. People tend to get caught up with copping the sound they hear on a record. But first they need to understand and separate what part of the sound is raw guitar tone and what part of it is production. As others have mentioned, the reverb and mic-ing are a big part of that sound. With slaving, as spaceace76 mentioned, you can put your time-delay fx behind the distorting amp. With that setup if you run that into a stereo wet-dry or wet-wet pair of amps, you can start to mimic some of the production aspects of the sound. Once you start experimenting with this stuff, you start realizing that the exact distortion sound or technique is much less significant than you first thought it was.
The same goes for Page and those early LZ records. The ambient mic-ing and production is a big part of what makes the guitar sound huge. And for the huge tone Iommi got on the early Black Sabbath records, try doubling the guitar with a delay and running in stereo (after tuning to C# or course). A lot of those guitar tracks were double-tracked.
I got the best studio quality sounds, when I got a multi amp system.
I used plugging my guitar into my phase 90 / Dist+ / flanger then splitted into my 100W Super Lead / 4x12 and into Intellifex and a stereo 200+200W FBT (A cheap transistors PA amp) / 4x12
Echo, reverb and chorus won't "disturb" the punching Marshall sound :)
Phaser before distortion (both from Dist+ and Marshall) really helped.
Another phase trick:
split the guitar cable, one into Dist+ / Marshall1
and the other into phase / Marshall2
Quote from: caspercody on November 19, 2009, 10:59:04 PM
Look at Wamplers Pinnacle pedal. This is a pedal you can buy
I have one of those. Great pedal.
All the replys listed on this i have tried and also know about as far as rocksta's clips on metro amp(which i have visited that site many times)they dont sound like van halen 1(first album),he has a nice tone but there is some over-the-top crunch needed,i think some people who are after Eds first album tone are believeing the BS Ed would say in early interviews and are excepting his BS,like Ed said that he never used a overdrive-distortion unit for van halen 1(recorded in 1978)which to me and many others know its BS,so that missing link(which overdrive-distortion,maybe homemade unit by Ed,hard to say) which unit is a mystery.
hear how much post-processing was done to get that sound.
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/AtomicPunkGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/EruptionGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/FeelYourLoveTonightGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/I'mTheOneGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/MeanStreetGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/SomebodyGetMeADoctorGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/YRGMGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/Ain'tTalkin'BoutLoveGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/AndTheCradleWillRockGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/BeautifulGirlsGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/DanceTheNightAwayGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/EverybodyWantsSomeGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/HangEmHighGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/HearAboutItLaterGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/Jamie'sCryin'GuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/JumpGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/LittleGuitarsGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/LossOfControlGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/PanamaGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/PrettyWomanGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/RomeoDelightGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/RunningWithTheDevilGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/UnchainedGuitarTrack.mp3
I have a huge pile of Guitar Player and World magazines dating back from 1979 and I have read every page of them back in the day .. Based on memory, I am pretty sure that Mike Soldano said Eddies amp was a '67 Marshall Super Lead amp on the first album(s?), and that they used a variac to drop the voltage a bit and a dummy load to crank all juice from the EL34 power tubes (making the Super Lead act as his "stompbox"). Also the EQ probably acted as a booster in front.. Studio post processing, like heard above, is a major part of that sound.
For what it's worth, I really like the Wampler Pedals Pinnacle demos I've heard. I had a hard time choosing between ordering the Pinnacle or the Super Plextortion.
I chose the Super Plextortion for versatility and I hope to get it in the mail next week.. but for EVH tones the Pinnacle would have been nicer. :icon_wink:
(http://img.skitch.com/20091122-d9nmcg53kk652w5jfinr1b2e9i.png)
All the post processing listed above i have seen-heard, the van halen 1 songs listed above on the process list dont sound like a 100 watt marshall it sounds more like a 50 watt or smaller amp or something in front of the amp like a overdrive-distortion unit.Eds marshall was a 67-68 marshall 100 watt,12000 series serial # (supposenlly used to record the first album,van halen 1)Ed also used 50 watt marshalls.Ed didnt use EL 34 tubes he used sylvania big bottle 6ca7 tubes which is the American version EL34,as for the photo above thats van halen in the studio recording van halen II,there are no photos of the band when they recorded van halen 1(i wish there was),as for mike soldano, he wasnt around back then(mid to late 70s),the person who took care of Eds marshalls was jose arrendondo(no longer with us,passed away).Some people should read my original post,i have tried and know about some of the things the people have already said after my original post ???.I have also read all the mid 70s interviews from different guitar magazines and take them with a grain of salt.(mis-leading and some BS)
There's no doubt that studio processing took place. EVERY album ever recorded has some of post processing going on. That's what "mastering" is all about. Don't be misled into thinking "mixing" and "mastering: are the same thing." They are distinctly different. In listening to the clips linked above, the CORE of the sound is there, pre-processing. As a matter of fact, I don't hear much post processing going on in those clips. I've heard bootlegs of early live recordings, and the tone is there, as well. The assertion that studio processing is the root of the classic "brown sound" is not wholly true.
listening to the clips above i do hear something in front of Eds amp(overdrive-distortion unit of somekind)pushing the front end,i dont hear a stock marshall plexi,marshall plexis are clean sounding to begin with especially a cranked marshall plexi,they get very loud but clean, they dont produce the crunch-over the-top distortion Ed achieved on van halen 1. No stock-cranked-variaced- down marshall plexi,it just doesnt happen and alot of people believe that,i tried this many times its not going to happen,the missing link is what Ed used in front,overdrive-distortion unit,there is no dought.
I had a '73 Les Paul Deluxe and a 100W JCM800 8X12 stack (bought new in 1981) in my younger days. The only 3 stompboxes I used were a Microamp, MXR Chorus and Crybaby. With a %^&*ed wah and Microamp pushed up to max, the result wasn't too far from that sound. Perhaps you need to experiment with tone control as much as overdrive. A good parametric EQ with Q control may be a good place to start.
Quote from: jessej on November 22, 2009, 07:42:17 AM
I have a huge pile of Guitar Player and World magazines dating back from 1979 and I have read every page of them back in the day .. Based on memory, I am pretty sure that Mike Soldano said Eddies amp was a '67 Marshall Super Lead amp on the first album(s?), and that they used a variac to drop the voltage a bit and a dummy load to crank all juice from the EL34 power tubes (making the Super Lead act as his "stompbox"). Also the EQ probably acted as a booster in front.. Studio post processing, like heard above, is a major part of that sound.
I rest my case (about the use of a Variac). I don't think EVH ever used any distortion pedals until later in his career. I'm pretty sure not on the early recordings anyway.
Allan Holdsworth is another guy who likes to eke power tube distortion out of his amps by using a dummy load of sorts that he designed himself. He has some of the best guitar tones if you ask me. That's one reason I really dislike these amp distortions that create it all in the preamp. I think that sounds terrible in comparison with power amp distortion. I much prefer power tube distortion in conjunction with some from the OT with something that's pushing the front end of the amp a little bit.
In a lot of the early interviews with EVH i have to agree that that the Variac was mentioned a lot about how eddy got his tone, but i do have to say one of the important things not mentioned here is getting the correct reverb/echo setting.
In the mix on Van Halen 1 Ed's guitar is panned left (not new info) and the reverb/echo tails are on both sides, ok that doesn't mean anything when your playing through your amp (left/right) but a good reverb setting with a little echo/delay will make all the difference. I also don't think his sound is hugely overdriven as opposed to driving the amp hard. You just have to listen to some of the tunes where he backs the guitar volume off just a little and it cleans up nicely but still biting. I think Ed also has some nice high end in there , probabaly presence.
Ed's always been upfront about his experimentation with the Variac. I've even seen some pics of his setup from way back when that showed the Variac. If I'm not mistaken, he'd feed the amp about 40V from the Variac, causing the amp to break up at a much lower volume setting. Is it not unreasonable to assume that because the amp was driven into distortion sooner, the amount of saturation available increased over the sweep of the volume knob, to some degree enabling the distinctive crunch? There's also no denying that there were effects in front of the amp - notably an Echoplex unit and the MXR Phase 90. If Ed truly used some mystery stompbox to aid his distortion, is it much of a stretch to think that we'd now have the EVH Distortion to accompany the EVH Phase 90 and Dunlop's EVH Wah? Imagine the killing the distortion unit's manufacturer would make if all that was need to sound like Ed Van Halen was a stompbox! I've also heard Ed play through rigs that weren't his own, and the resulting sound is unmistakably Edward, indicating that much of the brown sound is in his fingers, as well.
Getting back to the OT, I've found the BSIAB2 to be a reasonable facsimile of the classic VH tone. I get thisclose to the tone with my BSIAB and diy Phase 90. Now, if there were a talent stompbox, I'd certainly have it made!!
Im wasting my time here....................... :icon_rolleyes:
You're not wasting your time at all. There have been several suggestions/opinions about pedals that might get you to the tone you're looking for. The bottom line is that the only one who can really get EVH's tone/sound is EVH himself. It's all a combination of everything - fingers, playing style, guitar, pickups, pick, effects pedals, amp, volume/tone settings on amp, studio "magic", etc... I get close to the tone with the following: Peavey Wolfgang through BSIAB II, Phase 90 (w/Script mod), and Rebote 2.5 delay into Peavey ValveKing 212.
Eds tone changed from album to album, his fingers didnt change,his equipment changed or should i say Eds not being honest,again im talking about his first album sound(van halen 1),im very knowledgeable about his sound,some people here are not.I know about what Ed used,i do believe that Ed is not shooting straight when it comes to his early sound.
Quote from: halen on November 22, 2009, 11:15:23 PM
I know about what Ed used.
So why don't you post the list about what he used so we can get started with the pedal? Who's the one wasting time here?
Also, what amp/speakers are YOU using?
I did that,look at my early posts......... :icon_rolleyes:
Quote from: GtrmanMoe on November 22, 2009, 06:43:31 PM
Ed's always been upfront about his experimentation with the Variac. I've even seen some pics of his setup from way back when that showed the Variac. If I'm not mistaken, he'd feed the amp about 40V from the Variac, causing the amp to break up at a much lower volume setting. Is it not unreasonable to assume that because the amp was driven into distortion sooner, the amount of saturation available increased over the sweep of the volume knob, to some degree enabling the distinctive crunch?
If that's true, then that would have cut the headroom very dramatically. That's probably how he got those tones. The power tubes would have been operating far into that non-linear region, in a fashion similar to those "starved" preamp tube distortion pedals out there. There would be as a result a ton of distortion happening in the amp. I am not sure that anything would happen if he set it to 40V because the tube heaters probably would have too low of a voltage for thermionic emission to occur, however.
Quote from: GtrmanMoe on November 22, 2009, 06:43:31 PM
Getting back to the OT, I've found the BSIAB2 to be a reasonable facsimile of the classic VH tone. I get thisclose to the tone with my BSIAB and diy Phase 90. Now, if there were a talent stompbox, I'd certainly have it made!!
The Wampler Pedals "Pinnacle" I think sounds pretty good for getting that EVH sound. I veered to the topic of the Variac because there probably isn't any way to absolutely recreate that sound in a pedal due to the physics involved between vacuum tubes operating in an undervoltaged condition vs. solid state devices.
Crunch Box... just turn down the gain a bit and play with the presence and tone knobs...
Quote from: halen on November 22, 2009, 09:25:47 PM
Im wasting my time here....................... :icon_rolleyes:
Again, the "EVH in a box" thing really is like asking scientists when the flying car will be made. I can make all sorts of suggestions for OD's, hell I'll make some now based on what people have used over the years. The MXR Distortion+ was popular for copping Ed's tone back in the day. Apparently everyone used them to get semi-close while using similar gear. There is some talk about it on the Metro forum, Ralle made a clone and tweaked it to sound closer. I once read a suggestion for a Jordan Bosstone without the clipping diodes. Sounded okay. Obviously the more plexi-voiced overdrive pedals previously mentioned here will do a better job.
And yes, there WAS a distortion/OD in front of Ed's amp. The EQ pedals he used had a whole bunch of gain on tap. Though I've never personally used either the MXR or the Boss GE-10, I built a BYOC EQ for kicks a while ago, and it had a very pleasing (but noisy) overdrive to it. Didn't sound like anything else, just sounded like my setup, but with more push to it. This was a totally different circuit, but what I'm getting at is that's a big part of the sound. Now look at this picture:
http://wwwc.dcns.ne.jp/~epi/EffectersPhotos.jpg
The pedalboard, pictured in the top right, has the MXR EQ on it that particular day. Check out the sliders. At least one slider is up all the way, and none are on the 'cut' position. The pedal claims +18dB of gain, which is a LOT. The GE-10 has something like +10dB. Either of these pedals hitting the front of Ed's amp was big-time distortion. Since he also tended to crank his plexi up all the way, and supposedly used rock standard Greenback speakers, those speakers would be creating tons of speaker distortion. If you listen to AC/DC, you know a bit component of the sound is the speaker distortion. Ask anyone who's tried to get the Angus sound at bedroom levels ;D
One thing I can mention though, since a few of the Isolated guitar tracks have come out some have said they don't really hear a PAF. They hear a Super70 (standard in the Ibanez Destroyer) and possibly a Mighty Mite Distortion pickup. Both of these are higher output than a PAF. Ed has said a few times he was disappointed with his tone on the first album, and there is a possibility that he went to a lower output humbucker for the second album. That makes sense, since that signature VH1 drive is gone from the second album.
And don't discount superlead's just because they didn't do it for you, "modded" or not. No two Marshalls are alike. Parts substitutions, in value and type were just how things were done back then. There is NO complete circuit "evolution" because there are always exceptions to every theory. Factor in that components can sometimes drift in value, and you've got a wide range of possibilities. And just saying a plexi is modded is very unspecific. Like most vintage circuits they are very simplistic, so the mods could really be anything. Another thing to consider is that preamp tubes will shape the tone quite a bit, and there's basically no information about what Ed used.
Of course, all this will only work for you if you're looking for the live tone. The studio was a big factor in the recorded sound, as has been with every coveted sound in the history of Rock. Those who use slaving say they love it for the studio tone. I'd give that a shot before trying the endless stream of pedals on the market. Once again, I don't personally believe he slaved, live or in the studio, until later albums/tours, but it sounds good.
As unfortunate as it sounds, unless you're 1978 Ed himself, you'll never sound like him. By all means chase the sound, but don't expect miracles.
Quote from: spaceace76 on November 23, 2009, 07:04:53 AM
As unfortunate as it sounds, unless you're 1978 Ed himself, you'll never sound like him. By all means chase the sound, but don't expect miracles.
I agree. You can say that for many other guitarists. Jimi Hendrix comes to mind, too. A lot of guys go out and get exactly everything that Jimi had, but that's not going to make them sound like Jimi. Like any other good guitarist, he would sound like himself no matter what he played, because as they say, "it's in the fingers".
I have tried the wampler pedals,nice sounding pedals but not van halen 1 sounding,as far as what spaceace76 is saying the photo that he mentioned above is van halen in the studio recording van halen II not van halen 1,like i said before there are no photos of van halen recording van halen 1,as far as the mxr eq and the boss ge 10 eq(which i have tried both,bad results doesnt add the crunch-type of distortion Ed achieved) Ed used them sparingly,when he had to which guitars(example:explorer guitar sounds fatter then his frankenstrat)or if a venue or staduim they played sounded different and he would use it for that type or size of the room(acoustics),the variac thing i have also tried and it didnt do much,Eds early interview about the variac he first said that he ran the variac at 140 volts(you will fry the amp,not a good idea)which was a lie,and then another interview he said that he lied about that he really ran the variac at 90 volts,(i tried that also it makes the amp sag alot,far from the van halen 1 sound),as far as speakers go i use celestion greenback 25 watt,i believe that was the speaker of chose Ed used he also used jbl 120 speaker also, so Ed tends to though people off and to BS about what he used,as for the ibanez super 70 pickup(which is a low output 7.5k copy of a paf pickup,japanese copy)which was a complete rumour(people who assume about Eds tone,they have no idea),anyway i have never tried the bsiab II pedal,like i said am not good with a soldering iron so if there is a reputable person out there that would build one for me,i will supply the parts-kit,also as far as the guys on metro amp,they have some great sounding clips but they are not van halen 1 sounding,in my opinion they do need more crunch-over-the-top in there clips.
Quote from: halen on November 23, 2009, 10:10:57 AM
the variac thing i have also tried and it didnt do much,Eds early interview about the variac he first said that he ran the variac at 140 volts(you will fry the amp,not a good idea)which was a lie,and then another interview he said that he lied about that he really ran the variac at 90 volts,(i tried that also it makes the amp sag alot,far from the van halen 1 sound
90 volts is more believable. 140 volts would be dangerous for an amp, if not fatal. I wonder where in the world he ever came up with the idea of using a Variac anyway?
You're right, Paul. 90 volts sounds a lot better. It's been a long time since I read about it, but for some reason "40" was stuck in my head.
To the OP:
I'm not trying to be rude here, but if you are so knowledgeable about Ed's 1978 sound, why do you need us to recommend/build you a pedal? Like it's been said several times now - the only way to sound like EVH is TO BE EVH. Many of us have gotten close, but none of us are him, so that is the key missing ingredient.
Like i said i have tried numerous pedals but i have never tried the BSIAB II pedal,im not very good with a soldering iron so thats why i would like a reputable person to build me one,i will supply the parts-kit,my thread opener was "van halen 1 sounding overdrive-distortion pedal",to get more opinions and thoughts,that was it.
The photo I posted was taken on the Japan leg of the 78 tour. Note the stage lights in the EC-80 bomb picture.
I think Ed "using the EQ's sparingly" was sort made up. He might have just used them early on so tone would be consistent while still using different/rented gear, but there would be no reason to do this while on tour, which we have photos of him doing.
The variac's are always present in early photos. They definitely add to the sound. Let me ask, since you've tried lots of the pieces of the setup, how much of it have you used all at once? The signal chain should be something like:
Destroyer/Single humbucker Strat-->
MXR Flanger>MXR Phase 90>EP-3's in series>EQ pedals-->
Circa 1968 Superlead, (running Sylvania 6CA7's, and unknown preamp tubes, Variaced to 90 volts, (the 140 volts thing is a one time deal that was mis-quoted. he variac's down, not up.) The amp was reportedly dimed, and the signal was run into the high input of the first channel. Specific specs of the amp remain unknown, as does the mysterious "white knob" shown in the VH2 recording shots. Later photos of the amp show the knob replaced by a screw. Whatever it was, it was removed.) -->
Marshall 4x12's, one cab from the first tour had 2 JBL D120's, the rest were supposedly 25watt Greenbacks. The JBL's are absent in the VH2 recording photos, and seem to be absent from that point on.
I've heard the BSIAB2, I don't personally think it does the VH thing all that well, but there are tons of youtube clips to look at, decide for yourself.
Also, how do you know Ed's use of a Super 70 was a rumor? There's nothing to suggest that, even the pictures kind of support him using them. I don't think they were totally low output, but they were certainly PAF voiced.
A lot of the over-the-top crunch you're hearing is Ed's attack on the strings. He hits pretty hard, and close to the bridge. I remember Carlos Santana talking about how there were so few guitar players that the instant you heard them, regardless of the equipment they were on, you could recognize them. Ed is certainly that caliber of player, and had a very unique way of doing things. Even if you built a time machine, went back and inspected his gear top to bottom, came back and set it all up, it wouldn't completely sound like Ed.
Have you tried a Colorsound Overdriver? Micheal Anthony used one on the first world tour and on the VH2 recordings, maybe Ed borrowed it...
And what about slaving? I could walk you through that if necessary.
Spaceace76, i have tried it all at once ???.Eqs Ed used like i said its the place or room they played and the variac thing yes Ed used it but they wont achieve the edge or distortion Ed achieved.As for Eds pick attack,then how come each album sounds different,van halen 1 is the most aggressive over the top crunch out of all the van halen recording,i believe fingers play a important role to a certain extent,if you play though a dirty amp its going to sound dirty no matter what,same with a clean amp,as for the super 70 pickup they were low output 7.5k alnico 8 magnet pickups which i also have tried.So going back to the bsiabII,so if you dont think the BSIAB II pedal is van halen sounding then give me your opinion and thoughts that you think would be.
I built the BSIAB II, and did not think it was as close to the Brown sound as I thought it would be. I have since converted this to a Pinnacle, and this was much closer. I also built the Thor, and thought this was close. Check out the sound clips for Thor at Runoffgrove.com. And it sounds like you know about the Pinnacle. Also check out some video clips from burger666 on youtube. He tests a lot of different pedals.
Halen is just looking for someone to build him a BSIAB. It may not satisfy him in the end, but will someone build one for him. Originally I told him to get a CMATMODS brownie from Chad, or talk to John Lyons, but Paul, you are starting up a shop, no?
It's not, in the end, a DIY thread - halen has no interesting in talking up a soldering iron, and I've seen halen post this elsewhere...will anyone who could 'use the few bucks' do it for him? I thought these flowers were well watered. :D
So people have different versions or different meanings of the so-called brown sound,the brown sound is van halens first album(van halen 1)its not van halen II so-on-and-so on,(the rest of the van halen catalog) it is van halen 1,its very bright and edgey,over-the-top-crunch,it sounds like its beyond high gain if you know what i mean,you hear every note,alot of strengh in the tone. If by having someone build me a BSIAB II pedal and some of you think it would be a waste of time(BSIAB II pedal not van halen sounding) then i wouldnt want it,thats why i joined this site to get some opinions and thoughts to see what would be the closest to that sound,especially a site like this where custom made and experimentation is done.
Another factor is his guitars tuned to Eflat. What string gauge? That's going to make a big difference in sound. A lot of bands nowadays tune low for that bigger sound.
The BSIAB will get a nice simulation of that tone - listen to the CMATMODS brownie sample.
However you seem pretty exacting in your search. We don't know your gear or how you play or what the 'key elements and frequencies' you are listening for. We know the pedal, and in our own gear and sound contexts at that.
The BSIAB is a brilliant circuit for many. But around here it's a DIY schematic. Many of us mod it, tweak it, or just straight up prototype it first and do what we want with it, or more. We mod it to our tastes, our ears, our gear, our preffered setting, etc.
I think if you are comparing it to other pedals, it will be much be closer than this sound than most other pedals--much closer than a tubescreamer or a Box Of Rock, or a DS-1, definitely. But you don't seem to want just 'closer,' you seem to want exact, and for a time it seems you thought the BSIAB was 'the ticket.' It's great, but it's just a pedal.
The way you talk, my concern is that you seem really intent on something specific tone-wise. Well, this pedal was designed for a guy playing a strat into a fender super reverb with the bright switch on, and trying to get a 'Brown Sound in a box.' Is that your point of reference?
I think you need a tech who will built/tweak/mod if with you as a consultant. Not to be harsh but...you could also just man up, and go DIY, and put your efforts into obsessing over the sound into learning electronics and prototyping. That's what got me here in the end.
Otherwise, pay the price and buy a Marshall, a Soldano, or a Bogner and possibly pay them to consult on modifications to your exact specifications. In the end, I think nothing less than someone modding it to your exact tonal desires is what you need - and that can either be you, or someone you pay for consultation. A good amp is more likely to meet demanding players distortion needs anyhow...I prefer the OD tones I'm getting from my own pedals, but that is rare. OD Pedals offer versatility and variety of tone. If you want an exact tone, you might find it better in a tweaked out amp. Like Eddie did. See what I am saying?
Alanlan,strings are very important,Ed used fender XL150 9-40 set,same strings i use,also tuned down 1/2 step.Liquids i have tried and owned many boutique amps from A-Z also some early marshall plexis,the amps that i use and have been using for sometime now,they have the base foundation the the sound we are talking about are the VHT Deliverance heads(single channel heads with no bells or whisles),im just looking for that extra "THING''(pedal)to push it there.
Thing is: no-one here seems to have the undisputed answer to your question. It would be an expensive option to have someone make one (BSIAB that is) for you to find that it's not the ticket with your particular rig. But, if you ask me, that sound does not come from a conventional distortion pedal feeding the amp. To my ears, it's more like the sound I used to have with some tonal differences i.e. high gain boost and/or tone/graphic EQ into amp. This is just my opinion, but I've never heard a distortion pedal that does it for me like the aformentioned combination. The BSIAB clips I've heard don't clean up in the same way and also, they seem quite a bit noisier. If you've got the dosh to experiment with the BSIAB, feel free but I reckon you'll be disappointed.
One other point, in RWTD for example, the verse guitar bits seem like he could be reducing the drive a bit and then wacking it back up for the chorus and solo's may even be an extra boost. One thing I used to do was run 2 micro-amps in series with one set for decent crunch and the other for full on solo tone. this worked really well although in this case i think you'd hear the switch unless it was done with a variable control.
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=80351.0;topicseen
Quote from: alanlan on November 23, 2009, 05:23:03 PM
Thing is: no-one here seems to have the undisputed answer to your question. It would be an expensive option to have someone make one (BSIAB that is) for you to find that it's not the ticket with your particular rig.
True, but people seem willing to pay the price for a pedal, since it's very modular, easily bought and sold...less risky, less dough, and less heavy than a new amp head if your on a tone quest.
Quote from: alanlan on November 23, 2009, 05:23:03 PM
The BSIAB clips I've heard don't clean up in the same way and also, they seem quite a bit noisier. If you've got the dosh to experiment with the BSIAB, feel free but I reckon you'll be disappointed.
They are. Stock, it's got too much gain and potentially noisy. And it cleans up poorly. Even Ed seems to advise not using J201s these days. With Mpf102s/2n5459s at the front pair an more so in all the mu-amp positions, its far more dynamic, for starters, as a drop in replacement, and still has plenty of gain on tap even for classic VH rythms.
Halen, since you are talking purchasing rather than building, also check out the Catalinbread Dirty Little Secret sound clips. It's getting some great reviews these days for a rock sound...it's two gain stages rather than three, less gain, but still mu-amps.
In the end, I think the ticket for you is going to be jfet mu-amps. Which variation on that you go with...there are abundances. But even tonight I was comparing CMOS inverter type ODs (Red Llama, 4007s-based, etc) and also op amp clippers. I forgot just how much more real mu-amp types sound, as a starting point. BSIAB is just one of many pedal (these days) that use mu-amps for distortion, and speaking general, if you want a pedal, that's what I'd advise is a good way to narrow it down, especially assuming you've tried the endless garden variety of op amp diode clipping distortion pedals....
Not that there aren't plenty of good opamp clippers...Barber stuff comes to mind if you want affordable, quality, heavy variations on that theme.
I reckon all he needs is a burst box...Wait, I mean a box with a burst button on it... :icon_lol:
In all seriousness, there are so many variables that you can't have a set formula that will nail the exact tone. It just can't be done. There are variations between batches of transistors used in the pedals, variations in every component along the whole chain. And all these small differences propagate through to the end tone.
I appreciate the quest for the EVH grail, but...isn't the idea to have your own original sound?
Unless of course you're an atomic punk
http://www.theatomicpunks.com/
Quote from: halen on November 23, 2009, 05:04:43 PM
Alanlan,strings are very important,Ed used fender XL150 9-40 set,same strings i use,also tuned down 1/2 step.Liquids i have tried and owned many boutique amps from A-Z also some early marshall plexis,the amps that i use and have been using for sometime now,they have the base foundation the the sound we are talking about are the VHT Deliverance heads(single channel heads with no bells or whisles),im just looking for that extra "THING''(pedal)to push it there.
Sorry halen, but if you "tried and owned" every musical stuff known to human kind and you still didn't find what you were looking for, why on earth might you achieve that unique tone with different stuff or pedal?
you'd better ask Eddie if he can borrow you some stem cells, maybe :)
Quote from: halen on November 22, 2009, 11:15:23 PM
Eds tone changed from album to album, his fingers didnt change,his equipment changed or should i say Eds not being honest,again im talking about his first album sound(van halen 1),im very knowledgeable about his sound,some people here are not.I know about what Ed used,i do believe that Ed is not shooting straight when it comes to his early sound.
More like EVH doesn't remember the setup from the first album, or more likely he doesn't
care.
EVH doesn't sound like VH1 anymore, right? So he's evolved and doesn't
want to sound the same...
Quote from: gmoon on November 24, 2009, 08:29:59 AM
More like EVH doesn't remember the setup from the first album, or more likely he doesn't care.
EVH doesn't sound like VH1 anymore, right? So he's evolved and doesn't want to sound the same...
It can be like that with anyone. I still sound like me, just like I did ten years ago, but my guitar tone is significantly different. I say it's even better now, but someone else may still come back and say "I like your old sound." It's a valid opinion.
As mentioned in the link to the 'ephemeral nature of tone' thread linked here, let's also not forget about what things like the recording room, microphones used (!), recording format (tape, presumably), mixing (things that sound amazing in a recording mix can often sound unnatural when you isolate the track) mastering, etc, do.
But that hunt fuels the guitar market....just go to GC and see. :)
Quote from: liquids on November 24, 2009, 09:03:40 AM
It can be like that with anyone. I still sound like me, just like I did ten years ago, but my guitar tone is significantly different. I say it's even better now, but someone else may still come back and say "I like your old sound." It's a valid opinion.
I agree completely, and was only taking exception to the belief that EVH was being
deceptive about the gear on the first album...
Quote from: MoltenVoltage on November 23, 2009, 11:07:18 PM
I appreciate the quest for the EVH grail, but...isn't the idea to have your own original sound?
I was going to ask "why not find your own sound?" earlier in this thread, but I don't know all the details about why he wants to get that sound. I don't want to jump to conclusions.
However, IMO, I think it's much better to find your own sound rather than trying to copy someone else's sound, unless you are in a band that is trying to nail tunes exactly as they sound on a recording (which can be extremely difficult). Even then, I prefer to make stuff my own with my own sound rather than trying to be a mockingbird imitating something it hears.
Quote from: gmoon on November 24, 2009, 08:29:59 AM
More like EVH doesn't remember the setup from the first album, or more likely he doesn't care.
EVH doesn't sound like VH1 anymore, right? So he's evolved and doesn't want to sound the same...
I read a number of interviews from EVH and he seems downright bitter that people try to copy his equipment. Maybe he just spreads as much BS as possible because they've already coped his playing style and equipment... there must be a secret weapon in there somewhere. I might do the same thing if I were him...
I would too if I invented the Burst Box for VH1 and that damn Jack White let the cat out of the bag and used one in public. ;D
Some time ago someone at the metroforum posted isolated guitar tracks from RWTD, one track with the greenbacks, one track with the JBL's (D-120's?). From those tracks you can (only IMO) come to the conclusion, that the JBL's are big part of that 'sizzle' in the high frequencies. Of course, in combination with a plexi and correct pup's etc. I don't believe he used pedals for overdrive/distortion.
Ah! What you really need to sound just like EVH is one of these, an Eddy's Tone Box (http://www.hammondmfg.com/eddydwg.htm). Hope that helps!
:icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: frequencycentral on November 25, 2009, 07:00:45 AM
Ah! What you really need to sound just like EVH is one of these, an Eddy's Tone Box (http://www.hammondmfg.com/eddydwg.htm). Hope that helps!
Cool, it's just like an instant mix... just add water. Voila! Now you're Eddie Van Halen. Cool, all I need to find now is a box that turns me into Allan Holdsworth. :icon_lol:
you simply need to swap the Eddie's Tone Box screws with "Alle(a)n" wrench screws :)
Probably most of you have heard the bootlegs of Van Halen in a club. Although it's just audience recorded, his playing does sound like the recording. I don't think he slaved during the early days. I also believe like others that there are lots of conflicting info re: variac, distortion pedal etc...
All I know is that from building our fun boxes, no single box will give you the Van Halen tone OR the sound/feel of a great cranked amp all by itself. Not to mention the player aspect.
Quote from: Fender3D on November 25, 2009, 02:14:36 PM
you simply need to swap the Eddie's Tone Box screws with "Alle(a)n" wrench screws :)
Gee, that's simple! Why didn't I think of that? :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: halen on November 22, 2009, 11:15:23 PM
Eds tone changed from album to album, his fingers didnt change,his equipment changed or should i say Eds not being honest,again im talking about his first album sound(van halen 1),im very knowledgeable about his sound,some people here are not.I know about what Ed used,i do believe that Ed is not shooting straight when it comes to his early sound.
I am not personally familiar with Eddie's gear. I know and followed his early playing. As an amp tech I sorta need to know something, and there is the grapevine among tech's. From credible reports, the amps were gently modded. Reports vary, but are within the range of mild, moderate gain mods and may have varied from year to year and amp to amp. This is pretty consistent with what we hear. Yes, the variac was turned down, not up. Eddie simply @#$%ing lied about that and a wide range of other subjects. He is not to be believed when he talks about gear. Maybe that's changed with years and maturity**.
I say you can get that sound (or as close as you can get that sound) with the usually accepted rig, Variac, modded Marshall, boost in front, stereo delay off the amplified sound, not going into the amp. Don't forget, an SM57 in front of a speaker is the world's most perfect compressor.
** So little Tommy goes to his mother and says "Mommy I wanna be a lead guitar player when I grow up." Mom gently reminds him "Oh, Tommy, you know you can't do both."
Quote from: the_stig on November 22, 2009, 01:20:35 AM
hear how much post-processing was done to get that sound.
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/AtomicPunkGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/EruptionGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/FeelYourLoveTonightGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/I'mTheOneGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/MeanStreetGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/SomebodyGetMeADoctorGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/YRGMGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/Ain'tTalkin'BoutLoveGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/AndTheCradleWillRockGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/BeautifulGirlsGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/DanceTheNightAwayGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/EverybodyWantsSomeGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/HangEmHighGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/HearAboutItLaterGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/Jamie'sCryin'GuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/JumpGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/LittleGuitarsGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/LossOfControlGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/PanamaGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/PrettyWomanGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/RomeoDelightGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/RunningWithTheDevilGuitarTrack.mp3
http://www.studiobergman.com/VH/UnchainedGuitarTrack.mp3
Is it just my PC or do these clips not play properly , mine stutter speed up and slow down. i Would like to listen to them properly. DOH !!!
It does the same thing on my computer, drives me nuts...
Was listening to the radio today and heard "Beautiful Girls" and thought, man, that was some damn good tone (and a great groove).
It seemed a little less gainy, chunkier and meaner than the vh1 album.
Believe it or not, I think there was great tone on 1984... Drop Dead Legs sounds like it was recorded LOUD... or maybe just the right amount of slapback delay will get you that ambience. Nah... I bet it was LOUD.
Quote from: Ed G. on December 11, 2009, 11:24:03 PM
Was listening to the radio today and heard "Beautiful Girls" and thought, man, that was some damn good tone (and a great groove).
It seemed a little less gainy, chunkier and meaner than the vh1 album.
Believe it or not, I think there was great tone on 1984... Drop Dead Legs sounds like it was recorded LOUD... or maybe just the right amount of slapback delay will get you that ambience. Nah... I bet it was LOUD.
I think that they were at their peak when they recorded "1984". That guitar tone was great, too.
the tracks posted were pulled from an XBOX360 copy of the new guitar hero Van Halen game. the current copies are glitchy, but are being worked on.
and yeah, lots of post processing to get that sound, a lot more than you'd think. especially on Van Halen 1, where the Sunset Sound reverb room was used to create the wet tracks you hear on the album. Real reverb is almost impossible to capture in a plugin or stompbox, and is definitely an integral part of the sound. this and many other reasons make it way too hard for the average joe to accurately reproduce the album tones. a simulation is definitely possible, but the accuracy some folks seek is probably a recipe for disappointment. the same can be said for nearly any professionally recorded music. without the proper tools it won't matter if you have the right amplifier, stompbox, or guitar.
Quote from: Ed G. on December 11, 2009, 11:24:03 PM
Was listening to the radio today and heard "Beautiful Girls" and thought, man, that was some damn good tone (and a great groove).
It seemed a little less gainy, chunkier and meaner than the vh1 album.
Believe it or not, I think there was great tone on 1984... Drop Dead Legs sounds like it was recorded LOUD... or maybe just the right amount of slapback delay will get you that ambience. Nah... I bet it was LOUD.
Absolutely, "Beautiful Girls" is one of the best of the brown sound tones I've heard and also one of my fav riffs, I also think Eddy's sense or rhythm is fantastic, no matter how many times i play that song i can never get it the way eddy does.
I also agree that "Drop Dead Legs" has that great sound that you ONLY get by playing LOUD. You can hear on the intro before the guitar vol control is turned up that the tone is there just asking " Go on turn the volume knob if you dare" and what a riff that is as well.
I also have to mention the sound on the album "Diver Down" not a great album but the tones on "Hang Em High" are fantastic
I just read on some Van Halen site that there might be some new tunes getting released in 2010 with DLR singing as well. Rock on
spaceace76 you post on metro amp
back in 1979 In a issue of a r&r mag there was a picture of van halen surrounded by beer cans ..roth's ankle was in a cast...on the floor there was a marshall amp sitting backwards with the back cover off....It was a 66-68 marshall plexi ..the model with a Lay-Down Mains..with no filter caps on the top of the chassis...those amps sound much better than the ones with the caps on the top...I own both of those models...the lay down version sounds much better in my opinion.....also I would say Ted Templeman probably had something to do with the sound on that record..in 1978 he had a large bank of amps stacked up...which included various marshalls..and musicman among others...so who knows for sure...If I was him I wouldnt say either...It is a combination of things amps/guitars/playing approach/direct mics/room mics...even different brands of recording tape affect the sound
What we end up doing is trying to build is a pedal that not only sounds like the original amp, but also includes the studio processing that occurred, plus whatever coloring your playback system adds to it and the amp your playing it thru and the difference in your guitar, etc. ;)
I've come a lot closer to "the sound" building and modding amps than I ever did with pedals.
Quote from: fpaul on February 26, 2012, 04:41:15 PM
I've come a lot closer to "the sound" building and modding amps than I ever did with pedals.
Just as a counterpoint to this view - I've worked with both a fair amount, and gotten better to as-good-as results from semiconductors as compared to amps. I think it depends on what you do with either one.
I think that no one should feel like they have the short end of the stick if they can only do pedals, because I am one person who can do both, and prefer the tones I get from semiconductors (into my dead clean tube amp :))
Both 'sources' are potentially good sounding, and potentially awful sounding - it depends what you do with them, and often moreso, how familiar you are with either. I've come to think that with enough know-how, any tone is within reach. Actually, why wouldn't it be?
Pedals do unfortuanately also depend quite a bit on what you are doing with the amp you run the pedals through...so there are 2 variables in that realm. Fewer variables can make things simpler to hone in, though it also can be a limitation...it often depends how your brain is wired.
I think that in general, if someone is merely following available schematics and doesn't have the time/patience/investment to get creative in adjusting and compiling circuit pieces, one WILL probably get a lot closer, faster, to the 'classic' guitar sounds by working with amps. ...well, unless you have to play them very quietly.
9v stuff has the too-overlooked advantage of being a lot more compact, and a lot safer, all else being equal.
my guess is he used an mxr micro amp for that little bit of edge pr gain on top ofthe plexi at. 89volts through the variac
Bet it's the pick. Ed says he uses a .6 now, and used "thinner ones in the eighties". Gotta be the pick.
Quote from: Paul Marossy on November 19, 2009, 09:19:00 PM
One word: "Variac". I submit to you that he could have gotten that sound simply by cranking the amp while it was operating on a Variac, which is something that he reportedly used to do back in the day. What that does is lower the B+ voltage in the amp, which in turn lowers the headroom, which in turn makes it distort more. This might also account for the crunch in the tone. He might have also used a pedal of some sort, too, but I think his use of the Variac is probably the biggest factor in his tone on the early albums.
http://mr5150.vhvault.com/evh-brown-sound.html
+1
Having read some interviews with EVH from "back in the day", he had his Marshalls modified. There was also often a disclaimer by the editor that basically said "kids, do not try this at home". If I can find my old issue of Guitar Player from 1981 or so, I'll see if there's any tidbits in the interview with him. I think I recall the variac mentioned as well as a capacitor that was "as big as a stick of dynamite".
Regarding pedals - Phase 90 and maybe a flanger are all I recall him mentioning. Back then, his pedal board was his two pedals duct taped to a piece of plywood. There is an interview on You Tube from the last couple of years where Eddie states that he doesn't use any distortion before the amp because "it takes
away from the sound".
I do agree with other posts that EVH's sound is the result of a combination of things, with the indispensable item being his hands.
(Apologies if I've repeated something already mentioned. Too lazy to read through the entire thread.)
I got close to the basic sound by using a power starve box on my Boss OD-3.
Ah !!! the elusive EVH tone from a $79 overdrive or distortion box .... lol
Sorry , i just see this so many times over the years .
Think of your overdrive box like a mechanics wrench , it takes several tech's many tools to get John Force down the track weekend after weekend !
Same goes for the pro guitar player recording an album etc , the list of variables to make the guitar tone like Eddie did back then is numerous ...
Myself personally , i've had better luck trying to get EVH tone by driving a Marshall with an overdrive pedal , than any distortion pedal ..... but thats just me .
Quote from: HOTTUBES on April 12, 2015, 03:39:04 AM
Myself personally , i've had better luck trying to get EVH tone by driving a Marshall with an overdrive pedal , than any distortion pedal ..... but thats just me .
Yeah, I would have to agree on that.
Looks like this post was resurrected from 2009.... :icon_confused:
You can stop searching for that tone! I found that you have to be a 14 year old girl with a Vigier endorsement and a Digitech RP500 FX processor.... :icon_wink: :icon_lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV6SmY04WdE
I had forgotten how much phaser EVH used on eruption and in the early days. :icon_cool:
https://youtu.be/Sl59RPs7PiI (https://youtu.be/Sl59RPs7PiI)
Quote from: DougH on April 14, 2015, 10:15:25 AM
https://youtu.be/Sl59RPs7PiI (https://youtu.be/Sl59RPs7PiI)
Cheers for that Vid Doug, Eddy is sounding back on form and off the drink, but when you hear DLR singing it's like WTF. There is always something to upset the apple cart in the Van Halen camp.
He talks about the variac a little in that interview. My impression is it was used as a way of controlling volume, nothing more. Of course, we all know that it decreases headroom too, and probably crunches it up a little more too.
Quote from: DougH on April 15, 2015, 09:24:53 AM
My impression is it was used as a way of controlling volume, nothing more.
Yep, he said exactly that if I remember. It was his way to keep the distortion/tone somewhat the same but change volumes for different rooms.
Funny... about that same time (as a much younger kid) I would run my FX loop w/no FX except I built a little pedal with a Pot and a switch. Basically, since I was using the preamp for distortion and the FX loop was between preamp and power amp, I had an adjustable lead boost switch that didn't change the distortion at all. Completely different approach yet oddly similar problem being solved.
He said he turned all the knobs to 10, and used the variac to control the voltage going to the amp. Less voltage for smaller rooms, and around 89 volts for the studio. From what I gather, by doing this, this would allow him to adjust the noise level for the room he was playing in.
I do not know much about tube amps, but is this also how he got is Brown sound? The lower voltage would not allow the tubes to distort at full range, starve them is what some I think call it. Wouldn't his distortion sound different at 60 volts for the smaller rooms, as opposed to what it sounded like at 89 volts (on the recordings)?
Thanks
Rob
Just like he "sounds like Eddie" no matter what song he plays, he sounds like Eddie no matter what he plays through which bleeds into the concept of "his tone". His tone and pushing for it surely made it's mark but he himself was always one of the variables in the list of variables when he was tweaking. Meaning, most any other person on earth would not have arrived at such a combination even using the same ideas because they aren't him.
Additionally, human brains have a very, very difficult time separating mechanical tone (gear) from human tone (playing the gear). I don't often see terrible players with killer, to die for tone in other words. :icon_mrgreen:
I read somewhere in a fairly recent interview that what the variac was really used for was to keep the output tubes from blowing so quick. With the amp wide open it was going through tubes very rapidly and sometimes taking the output transformer with them. He said he was told by Roth amoung others to never tell the truth about his tone back in the day. He says now that the amp wasn't modded at all.
To be honest I have read many articles of EVH being interviewed in guitar mags over the years and nearly every time he has been asked about tone and the variac it has been a different answer. At times in earlier interviews his comments on the variac were just wrong , technically speaking. Like most players that didn't/ don't understand electronics I think EVH just made shit up.
Still though no matter what, he still had and has a killer sound.
might help/might not but i remember when ed was doing his bit at les pauls birthday party show? i think, his tone was extra middy, i thought at the time, this is a little insight into the van halen sound/tone. he 'MIGHT' have been playing through a different rig, but i think it was more that it was his tone in a more raw, less post processed state and that it was his actual 'in the room' tone. so you might look it up on youtube and see what i mean as far as evh tone chasing...
I don't even think Eddie has the sound that he used to have back on the first two records..! I don't think he has had that sound/tone since the "Fair Warning" record.. There are many Marshall mods that damn near nail that early Eddie tone 100% and without using a variac! I have yet to hear anything in the form of a pedal that does it, not even close... The pinnacle, bsiab and Hot Mod 800 sort of get in the groove but still don't cut it in my opinion. The closest I have heard in a stomp box was from a sansamp classic with tube screamer in front of it with some post EQ then into a mosvalve power amp.
We're quite happy with the performance of the Thunderbird (http://runoffgroove.com/thunderbird.html) circuit for that sort of tone.
Madbean's Laserwolf is fairly specifically designed for this sound... I'd check that out.
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Laserwolf/Laserwolf_2015.pdf
Quote from: Willypp on April 21, 2015, 08:41:34 AM
Madbean's Laserwolf is fairly specifically designed for this sound... I'd check that out.
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/projects/Laserwolf/Laserwolf_2015.pdf
Nice, Overdrive ,phaser and echo all on one pcb. The overdrive part of the circuit is a BSIAB II. I didn't check component values for any alteration though.
The VH sound on the first two albums that is known as the brown sound really is down to volume(and variac) along with the production. There is a you tube vid kicking around which is a 1977 Demo of some of the early incarnations of a lot of the songs and the guitar sounds sort of there but not like the eventual released albums. It is quite good to hear VH's guitar in both left and right speakers though. :) I found the vid so posted it.
^^That is really cool. Thanks for sharing!
Quote from: DougH on April 21, 2015, 02:15:12 PM
^^That is really cool. Thanks for sharing!
I like that it has early demo's which are very different to what made the records, House of pain which I think went on diver down is recognizable but very different.
Is this the demo that Gene Simmons was involved with?
Listening to this, it's obvious to me that so much of his "sound" had to do with the studio production. The guitar sound here is generic bar band cranked Marshall, pretty typical for the time period.
well to get his sound you need to hire ted templeton.i think he used an mxr micro amp. i built one and run it through my JMP at about 3-5 oclock it adds that spongy sizzz on top. its just enoughto get the brown sound. growing up we always assumed he used a distortion plus but i have had one for years its not right. the micro amp is closer i think. dont fprget he used that eq pedal as well
in the nineties he was using a boss super overdrive . thats what i have been using since 1985 . that and a jmp is about as good as it gets. the mxr micro amp as a boost works really nice i am finally happy with my tone at least till i get bored with it.
I don't think the early Van Halen "brown sound" is as difficult to get as everybody thinks... There are scores of amp modders/builders today that offer any number of mods to get you anything from Ed's VH1 and all 50 shades of brown in between, to anything ever recorded on through a Marshall, or whatever. The thing that can't be replicated is that day decades ago when some kid picked up the 8 track cassette of the first Van Halen, pushed it into the slot and these magical mind blowing guitar sounds started to flow into world. They didn't stop after just one song either, they kept coming and coming like a freight train from one song to the next, one record to the next... It was something new, totally different and had an aggression and style like nothing before it! The guitar sound itself for that time period was totally different but, that coupled with Ed's playing was Legendary. Changed guitar playing forever... Can you imagine knowing that something you created changed the face of music forever!?!? Millions upon millions of kids tried to emulate your sound, your guitar, the paint job on your guitar, your amps and last but not least your playing and style.. and they still do today!!? That is truly a gift, truly humbling! There are millions upon millions of guitar players today that are unbelievably good but, there is still only 1 Ed Van Halen and that as far as I am concerned that is only where the true "brown sound" comes from! I always thought that Ed conveyed a real "be yourself" kind of mentality... And rules do not apply.. Nobody told me about the laws of gravity so, I flew away!
Satriana will know
The closest thing I heard that actually sounded close was the Yamaha practice amp that they sell. THR series. I think it sounds awesome. I should get one.