I ran out of Press n Peel the other day and recalled having seen a tutorial on using photo paper in place of P 'n P. I also had no photo paper but did have a stack of lightly coated glossy stuff so I gave it a try. I was amazed at how much better it works that PnP. It even worked for the tiny board lettering that I had never been able to get to work with the Pnp. Use it in the same manner you would use the PnP. The only change was to soak the board in cold water to remove the paper. Try it and see what you think.
Quote from: Pigyboy on April 03, 2010, 02:34:57 PM
I ran out of Press n Peel the other day and recalled having seen a tutorial on using photo paper in place of P 'n P. I also had no photo paper but did have a stack of lightly coated glossy stuff so I gave it a try. I was amazed at how much better it works that PnP. It even worked for the tiny board lettering that I had never been able to get to work with the Pnp. Use it in the same manner you would use the PnP. The only change was to soak the board in cold water to remove the paper. Try it and see what you think.
I often see people talk about this glossy paper and i'm often mystified...can you explain further where you got the paper, what brand, what it's normally used for, and the process you used step by step? would be much appreciated :)
cheers
phil
Here's one way.
http://www.mrdwab.com/john/How-to-make-PCBs.html (http://www.mrdwab.com/john/How-to-make-PCBs.html)
Thread
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=56270.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=56270.0)
Hello guys,
I can confirm that glossy paper (in romania you will find it as chalk paper) is better then press n peel and the tutorial from http://www.mrdwab.com/john/How-to-make-PCBs.html (http://www.mrdwab.com/john/How-to-make-PCBs.html) posted by JL is verry good.
Ohhh and btw i get glossy paper for about 3 cents / sheet in romania, the blue press n peel is like... 4$ per sheet.
Best regards,
Gabriel Tudoran
Analog Sound
HI,
Glad to see I am not the only one who has found this trick. The type of paper I used just happened to be lying on the copier at my wife's office. It was a tad thicker than normal paper but not card stock and had a slick, glossy coating that keeps the toner from fusing into the paper. Another thing I found was when transferring the toner to the board was that the glossy paper seemed to 'tack' to the lightly heated copper so the transfer did not slide around on top of the board. Press n peel needs the toner to tack it to the copper so if you do not get it just right the transfer does not come out clean. The glossy part of the paper sticks lightly at first and gives you time to make sure the alignment is right. Also check out this link
http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/tech_support/no_etching_tank/no_etching_tank.html
These guys offer a similar product as press n peel but the link shows how to use very little etching acid to etch a board in about 2 minutes. This technique involves wiping the etchant across the board with a sponge.
Check out their other product 'Decal Pro'. It is the best way to get professional graphics at a low cost and you don't have the lame looking water transfer or sticker edges anymore.
Let me know if anyone else has luck or new ideas with any of this.
Thanks John! Awesome tutorial, i read all of it including the thread here. Some q's though, you're talking about bog standard
photo paper, the kind you chuck in the inkjet to print family snaps etc? I have some 6"x4" that i got from Dick Smith but it's not
gloss finish (it's matte). It says on the box it's 260 GSM...it also says water-proof. Do you think it'll work ok?
EDIT: also i'm using Ammonium Persulphate, will that work in place of the Hydrogen Peroxide and Sulphuric Acid?
You will need to experiment with the photo paper, many people here will give you many opinions
on what they use. Plain paper, magazine paper, pnp blue, sticker backing sheets, transparency sheets etc etc etc.
Just play with you temperature, and pressure and you'll find something that works.
pnp and thin papers take less pressure. Thick papers take a littl more pressure, not much though.
The etchant isn't as critical just follow the directions for each. They will all etch fine, just take different times
but you can see the progress so it's not big deal.
Quote from: John Lyons on April 04, 2010, 10:50:44 AM
You will need to experiment with the photo paper, many people here will give you many opinions
on what they use. Plain paper, magazine paper, pnp blue, sticker backing sheets, transparency sheets etc etc etc.
Just play with you temperature, and pressure and you'll find something that works.
pnp and thin papers take less pressure. Thick papers take a littl more pressure, not much though.
The etchant isn't as critical just follow the directions for each. They will all etch fine, just take different times
but you can see the progress so it's not big deal.
Okay thanks, when I get around to etching (hopefully not far off) I'll let everyone know what happened.
BTW John, 4000 posts, nice! :)
Quote from: John Lyons on April 04, 2010, 01:43:52 AM
Here's one way.
http://www.mrdwab.com/john/How-to-make-PCBs.html (http://www.mrdwab.com/john/How-to-make-PCBs.html)
Thread
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=56270.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=56270.0)
Hey John, did you try the -Sterling Ultra Digital- paper yet ? You are still running on the old Staples, or you found something else ?
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=78859.msg650102#msg650102
I am also using a regular Photo paper. You can buy it from any photo store or computer store. Its just a paper that is ment for printing photos on. So its very common stuff.
For PCB you just print on it with regular laser printer and iron the print on a PCB, just like with thet Blue sheet, only difference is that the quality is actually better, its cheaper and you can get it easily.
I have a stock of Staples paper for now.
I meant to try the sterling paper but have not
tried it yet.
I´ve tried all those different papers and found that simple catalogue paper works best for me.
I use the catalogue from reichelt.de
I used the articles from Playboy ::)
But the thinner paper in " Entertainment " magazine worked well too.
You can see the toner just sitting on the surface its kinda cool.
I also found you need less pressure when using glossy paper as it will smear/thicken the traces a little if you press too hard.
Use those old '70s playboys for a truly vintage big muff pi
How much heat do you apply?
Quote from: Pigyboy on April 04, 2010, 07:31:27 AM
HI,
Glad to see I am not the only one who has found this trick. The type of paper I used just happened to be lying on the copier at my wife's office. It was a tad thicker than normal paper but not card stock and had a slick, glossy coating that keeps the toner from fusing into the paper. Another thing I found was when transferring the toner to the board was that the glossy paper seemed to 'tack' to the lightly heated copper so the transfer did not slide around on top of the board. Press n peel needs the toner to tack it to the copper so if you do not get it just right the transfer does not come out clean. The glossy part of the paper sticks lightly at first and gives you time to make sure the alignment is right. Also check out this link
http://www.pulsarprofx.com/pcbfx/main_site/pages/tech_support/no_etching_tank/no_etching_tank.html
These guys offer a similar product as press n peel but the link shows how to use very little etching acid to etch a board in about 2 minutes. This technique involves wiping the etchant across the board with a sponge.
Check out their other product 'Decal Pro'. It is the best way to get professional graphics at a low cost and you don't have the lame looking water transfer or sticker edges anymore.
Let me know if anyone else has luck or new ideas with any of this.
this product in your link is truly awesome. the best i've found.
Finding this just now as I'm about to jump into etching PCBs.
mrdwab links are dead but I found a mirror.
http://web.archive.org/web/20080827214718/http://www.mrdwab.com/john/How-to-make-PCBs.html
John's web site has changed. The article is now here: http://www.basicaudio.net/how-to-make-pcbs.php.
And a recent very sad update on the OP here...
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=110554.0
dave
Just a general comment on the process and glossy paper. That sure seems like an awful lot of labor getting that paper off compared to PnP etc. Seems like the labor exceeds the price of the PnP.
I have recently done some testing just using plain transparencies, came really close but haven't gotten the transfer quite as good as PnP which I have had really good luck with. I just ordered a Fab-In-A-Box kit out of interest though.
Quote from: karbomusic on April 14, 2015, 02:42:24 PM
Just a general comment on the process and glossy paper. That sure seems like an awful lot of labor getting that paper off compared to PnP etc. Seems like the labor exceeds the price of the PnP.
I have recently done some testing just using plain transparencies, came really close but haven't gotten the transfer quite as good as PnP which I have had really good luck with. I just ordered a Fab-In-A-Box kit out of interest though.
I use my thumb to get the majority of the paper off.
After that I use a medium stiffness toothbrush to get the rest of it off.
Works like a charm.
Quote from: CodeMonk on April 14, 2015, 04:45:09 PM
Quote from: karbomusic on April 14, 2015, 02:42:24 PM
Just a general comment on the process and glossy paper. That sure seems like an awful lot of labor getting that paper off compared to PnP etc. Seems like the labor exceeds the price of the PnP.
I have recently done some testing just using plain transparencies, came really close but haven't gotten the transfer quite as good as PnP which I have had really good luck with. I just ordered a Fab-In-A-Box kit out of interest though.
I use my thumb to get the majority of the paper off.
After that I use a medium stiffness toothbrush to get the rest of it off.
Works like a charm.
I get it but just the thumb/brush part seems like a lot more than "peel". I think it takes me about 2 seconds with PnP or a transparency, literally. Of course I get such good results, maybe I'm spoiled. I might try glossy just for fun though. The big trick IMHO with PnP is running it under cold water for a few seconds to harden the toner to get it really crisp FYI.
I'm probably not as experienced as most of the people on this thread but thought I could vouch for glossy paper. I've done about a dozen toner transfers using glossy paper. As a day job I manage a warehouse dealing with copy machines and supplies. Of course it's filled with surplus machines and paper. So I found some Canon double side gloss paper that seemed to be okay for laser printers and I haven't really looked back. High density settings on the machines help also.
Since I have no experience with other medias I can't compare here but I will say that the bigger the transfer the more you're going to rub that hot iron around. I usually get it to the point that the toner starts to press through the top so I actually can see where the toner has softened/adhered and where it hasn't. Over heating/rubbing could mess the transfer up. Practice makes perfect. One problem I sometimes have is the transfer doesn't take with some traces or pads. But that could be due to the board not being cleaned thoroughly enough before hand. Stand by with a sharpie for touche ups but don't be afraid to start with a clean slate if it's too much. Let it soak in cool water, agitate the water to help the paper soak. With the paper I use I know it's a good transfer when I go to peel it and it separates into two layers. Then I thumb the rest off under cool water. Same procedure if/when applying a component layout on the board. Accept I spend a little more time rubbing the paper off to bring back the semi-gloss of the toner.
Oh wait I have used magazine paper before. It worked okay but it was very flimsy and could easily get jammed in whatever printer I would use.
Sorry that was allot of info lol. Hope someone finds it useful.
I want to add that when using glossy paper I've realized that I have to use a chunk of PBC bigger than the transfer. If it's snug(transfer fits PCB closely) I sometimes have problems with the transfer taking around the edges.
QuoteLet it soak in cool water, agitate the water to help the paper soak. With the paper I use I know it's a good transfer when I go to peel it and it separates into two layers. Then I thumb the rest off under cool water. Same procedure if/when applying a component layout on the board. Accept I spend a little more time rubbing the paper off to bring back the semi-gloss of the toner.
So out of sincere interest. Do you guys go through this extra work/waiting because of the price difference per sheet? I'm trying to find a worthwhile reason but am having difficulty doing so. Mainly because if I have to soak in water and take these steps/precautions just so I can use photo paper, I've lost the savings in waiting/labor. My normal process is pretty much 5 minutes (not including the printing) and the results are nearly flawless...
(http://i.imgur.com/R8lM5I8.png)
(http://karywall.smugmug.com/Stompboxes/PCBs/i-gsCTDbk/0/M/78-M.png)
Again, a sincere question. Just trying to discover the value. If just in the spirit of DIY then I understand better but just wondering. :)
I haven't used PnP, but don't you still have to scrub the PnP from the traces and pads after etching? With glossy paper you don't need to do that, you just wipe the toner away with acetone. So isn't it pretty much the same deal - you have to scrub something off either before or after etching? And depending on the paper used, there is no scrubbing to do after the transfer. I've used a no-name photo paper and vinyl shelf liner that both peeled off completely cleanly.
Cost is probably a factor for most (would be for me anyway), but the main factor I think is the ease and quality of the toner transfer. Once people find something that works for them they stick with it. And not everyone likes the PnP.
QuoteI haven't used PnP, but don't you still have to scrub the PnP from the traces and pads after etching? With glossy paper you don't need to do that, you just wipe the toner away with acetone.
Nope, a quick swipe with acetone and it's gone in seconds. All PnP does, is contain a substrate that acts as a carrier for the toner to facilitate its transfer to the copper. Thusly, getting it off is probably the quickest step of the entire process. That's why I'm asking, I had seen the photo paper reference a while back, tried it and it was such a mess (comparatively), I ditched the idea out of ignorance.
What is (now) ironic, is as soon as I saw all that paper melted to my PCB I considered soaking it but it was obvious my PnP process was many times faster/easier. I had not seen the soaking piece of this thread back then so it all makes much more sense to me now, hence all my questions over the last day or so on the subject.
On a related note, I have gotten *very* close by using plain clear transparencies (basically PnP minus the substrate) but it wasn't repeatable enough so I decided to revisit later. I'm surmising that toner (being basically a form of plastic) needs a lower melting temp than transparencies so you can actually print on them. So, there is some room for ironing the toner back off the transparency and onto the copper.
Edit: My main interest is that PnP isn't something I can grab in a crunch. I have to order it and wait. If I were to find myself on a plane that is going down and someone screams "Is there anyone who can etch a PCB on the plane?" I'd like to be able to improvise quickly and say "Why yes, I can". :D
I have experimented with most diy toner transfer solutions and have found that the backing of self adhesive labels has produced the best results, and performed consistently. The only other popular medium that I have not tried is transparencies, though many get excellent results with them. I have collected the self adhesive backing from many sources like the large decal sheets that come with kids corvette beds. I have also purchased a roll of self adhesive shelf liner, which probably has a lifetime supply of the coated paper. Just my .02
what printer brand/toner are you using with your PnP blue? Iron temp and time? Looks like you have your settings down nicely.
Quote from: karbomusic on April 14, 2015, 07:05:51 PM
QuoteLet it soak in cool water, agitate the water to help the paper soak. With the paper I use I know it's a good transfer when I go to peel it and it separates into two layers. Then I thumb the rest off under cool water. Same procedure if/when applying a component layout on the board. Accept I spend a little more time rubbing the paper off to bring back the semi-gloss of the toner.
So out of sincere interest. Do you guys go through this extra work/waiting because of the price difference per sheet? I'm trying to find a worthwhile reason but am having difficulty doing so. Mainly because if I have to soak in water and take these steps/precautions just so I can use photo paper, I've lost the savings in waiting/labor. My normal process is pretty much 5 minutes (not including the printing) and the results are nearly flawless...
(http://i.imgur.com/R8lM5I8.png)
(http://karywall.smugmug.com/Stompboxes/PCBs/i-gsCTDbk/0/M/78-M.png)
Again, a sincere question. Just trying to discover the value. If just in the spirit of DIY then I understand better but just wondering. :)
Quote from: newperson on April 15, 2015, 03:46:53 PM
what printer brand/toner are you using with your PnP blue? Iron temp and time? Looks like you have your settings down nicely.
Printer: I use a HP LaserJet Pro 200 M251nw but that was not by choice, just the printer that I already owned. I have had some issues with 3rd party toners however. Some are not so good. I may go find a monochrome version of the same printer so I can afford HP toner.
Temp: Need to check. I began at 325F but is hotter than that now. Once I realized that the temp is more related to not being so hot that the substrate attaches to the PCB and doesn't melt the transparency, I keep it pretty hot now and don't worry about it. I'll actually measure the temp later this evening and report back.
Time: A couple/three minutes. I begin with a sheet of printer paper over the top then remove that and iron out any spots that don't appear fully transferred. I do manually finish it off with the tip of the iron.
I really should just do a short video since my etches started off not so good then got much better over time. It's all in the technique me thinks. I can say the top few are...
1. Clean the copper, use #0000 steel wool under running water and get it super shiny and clean. I typically favor circles instead of straight lines. Make sure there are no burrs around the edges.
2. Dust, it's amazing how those transparencies get statically charged and suck dust out of the air. You can't even see the dust without magnification. Inspect as you are initially placing on the copper and remove it because wherever it lands, toner won't transfer.
3. Watch it closely when ironing as you can literally see where it is transferring or needs more work.
4. Take it straight to the sink and run cold water on top at an angle which sucks the heat away and solidifies the toner. Don't peel it off when warm or you'll pull the toner right back off.
5. Peel just a small corner at first to confirm. That way, if it isn't right you haven't ruined the "registration" and can lay it back down and work it more (though that never occurs if 1-4 are done properly).
Following up on temperature as promised. It's not as high as I thought, my previous heat measurement was flawed. This time however, by using my meter with temperature probe again, setting it under the paper and actually imitating doing a transfer, I'm getting between 300-325F; the variance is due to the thermostat turning on and off. I feel pretty good about the accuracy of the probe because a 50/50 mix of ice/water = exactly 32F. Probe agrees when submerging in that mixture. There is still some room for error between that calibration point and 300F but nevertheless close enough for grenades, horseshoes and DIY etching. :icon_lol:
I have that same printer karbo in addition to a Samsung monochrome. I just got the HP and used it to do my first color decal. Seems to work pretty good but I haven't tried an etch yet.
Quote from: bloxstompboxes on April 15, 2015, 08:33:53 PM
I have that same printer karbo in addition to a Samsung monochrome. I just got the HP and used it to do my first color decal. Seems to work pretty good but I haven't tried an etch yet.
I've had great luck with it actually for both etching and all my waterslide decals. The only bad luck is I've had two different third party cartridges that were of poor quality. Once I fixed by shining up the copper contacts, the other just didn't print well, and the third's plastic strip that blocks the toner broke and I was unable to get it out. The HP cartridges that came with it were much better across the board. I need to find a reliable third party refill if such a thing exists because the HPs are too darn expensive.
I made a video tonight. Took a little over 30 minutes which includes the exports from Eagle, extra preparation in Photoshop, printing etc... I did time compress it quite a bit so as not to be boring and normally would have been a tad less sloppy but video file sizes add up fast. Hopefully it gets the idea across. This isn't about press and peel per se, just felt like a good time to document something...