DIYstompboxes.com

Hi
I've been working on the sustainer project based on a ruby schematic. My problem is the driver part. I have been searching and find info about the amplifier but not much about the driver.
I've tried with an old P90 pickup whitch is 8ohm and it did'nt wotk. I don't understand why ? What is the big difference between the drvier and a standard pickup with the right impedance ?
Do you know place where it's well explained ?
thanx

I'd say it has something to do with size or mass and its ability to resonate (don't really know - just a guess). I built my driver around a piece of steele cut from a PC-network card and around 200 rounds of copper wire. Works great!

I on the other hand have problems with the electronix part. My fetzer ruby tends to oscillate really easily.

I think the pickup was probably closer to 8K ohms
Try these threads:
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512

Quote from: suregork on April 07, 2010, 07:51:29 AM
I think the pickup was probably closer to 8K ohms

That sounds more like it.

Quote from: suregork on April 07, 2010, 07:51:29 AM
Try these threads:
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=7512

Unfortunately, "The Great Sustainer" thread the www.projectguitar.com forum has been deleted, apparently due to people getting stupid, but I do remember that "psw" had worked on it extensively. There are some things that you have to get right or it simply won't work.

Quote from: Paul Marossy on April 07, 2010, 12:10:12 PM
Unfortunately, "The Great Sustainer" thread the www.projectguitar.com forum has been deleted, apparently due to people getting stupid, but I do remember that "psw" had worked on it extensively. There are some things that you have to get right or it simply won't work.

Actually, it's back, but in locked and edited form :)

 i think its a question  of wire guage and current. i think a pickup has more windings of a very thin wire to arrive at 8ish ohms whereas a string 'driver' used after a 386 amp has thicker wire and less windings to arrive at 8ohms. i seem to remember someone managed to wind the extra driver winding around a regular'already wound' guitar pickup, without disturbing it. i'd search the sustainer thread for "wire guage"  and see about the guage wire and how many turns etc... otherwise a pickup and a driver coil are essentially the same thing right?
oi' is there a pdf or something on that sustainer?!? seems like an awful big thread to have to wade through. :icon_eek:

Mmm... the diy sustainer. I was in awe of the sustainer forum, so much so that I bought a cheap guitar just for the purpose of building the sustainer into it.  I spent an hour building the amp for it, not really that difficult for the standard model that was floating around at the time I started doing it.  Then I spent hours and hours trying to put the driver together.  Essentially I used the neck pickup from the Squire Tele I had bought to make the driver, I used the correct wire gauge, depth and measurements, ohms etc, and nothing would come out.  Although with the incorrect wire size I could get some sustaining.  Eventually I put the guitar in playable form without the sustainer and chalked it up to something inherently wrong with the design. The guy that ran that design could talk your ear off without being able to answer a question on the design.  I just gave up thinking someone would come up with the answer so I wouldn't waste any more time on the thing.  Well, I'm still waiting.

yeah, thats the impression i got. that there was no difinitive 'final design'. perhaps due to the driver being a handmade part. to many variables there... ??? if it COULD be made to work with an off the shelf pickup, that would be a big step forward

The www.uspto.gov website has the patent for the fernandes sustainer.  use the patent 'search', 'quick search', then 'guitar sustainer' in term 1, it's patent 5,585,588.  the fernandes problem is the same one the forum was having, the driver.  fernandes figured out how to make it work, the design the forum was working on didn't seem to address the issues that fernandes did, it seemed like the forum was using trial and error, fernandes was using science, obviously the forum was going to miss a lot before they got a working design.  I plan on sitting on it for a while then trying again having read through the patent grants.  Unless that forum employs science in their design they will never get it right.

psw is on this forum too: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?action=profile;u=2800;sa=showPosts

I had problems with the Ruby and sustainers, I don´t like LM386 very much  :(
Try this links, it´s simple, has a video and an MP3 sample and uses other IC for the amp.

http://www15.brinkster.com/zakzub/susdriver009/

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=42876

Good luck.

Quote from: space_ryerson on April 07, 2010, 03:36:18 PM

Quote from: Paul Marossy on April 07, 2010, 12:10:12 PM
Unfortunately, "The Great Sustainer" thread the www.projectguitar.com forum has been deleted, apparently due to people getting stupid, but I do remember that "psw" had worked on it extensively. There are some things that you have to get right or it simply won't work.

Actually, it's back, but in locked and edited form :)

Huh, good to know that. Thanks.

I'm following the same problems !!
Sorry for the ohm instead of khoms.

I've tried with a 0.5 wire with about 150 turns. The string just oscillate a bit with a big distort behind.

I'll try :

- 0.2mm wire

- lm386 n4 instead of lm386n1 !!

- i am looking over this chip interesting lm4250 (up to 30W !! ?)
http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/8911/NSC/LM4250CN.html

- maybe look also the magnets !!I've seen many differences.

My personal thought of the day (maybe a piece of crap) :
In my past experiment with mini speaker coils i'v notice that the fact the coil moves gives more strength to the string...
Let's make a moving coil ??!!

If you read through the patent description on the uspto site, it will tell you exactly how to make the thing. It has nothing to do with the amp, you can use any amp design, the problem with the design is the magnetic driver.  Fernandes figured out you cannot make just any old driver work, ie, 'the forum' says use a certain mm wire wrapped about 150-170 turns to make  an 8 ohm coil, but that is an extremely simplistic design and will not create a driver that will work like the Fernandes sustainer.  Fernandes describes that you need a rail pickup, not individual pole pieces like a typical Strat pickup.  The rail is then cut partially, in a fan shape, creating 6 variable width 'poles', each 'pole' is a different size for each string.  They later refined this to have three rail pieces of varying thickness for each string, all in parallel.   Fernandes figured out that each string needs a certain amount of magnetic flux to get that string working, and no single pole size works optimally for all strings.  Look over the patent description, read through the thing, and it will tell you exactly how to make the driver correctly, the simplistic 'forum' driver has not addressed any of the problems that the patent describes.

(http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y346/BRingoC/Fig18b.jpg)(http://i1028.photobucket.com/albums/y346/BRingoC/Fig21.jpg)

Figure 18(b) shows the bar magnet that is fanned out to give the strings their own sized 'pole'.  Figure 21 shows the three magnets that make up the driver.

wow
that's very interesting !
i'm impressed !! there is a lot to learn !!
That's funny because
I was wondering about pole pieces and that each string will react differently too...
Maybe the pole piece standard strat pickup could be wind differently
My idea is (tell me if it's crappy) :
winding each polepieces differently

witch would mean find the turns needed for each pole piece / string

But as you said and as show the picture 18(b) the pole pieces have different surfaces.

While mechanically they might seem similar, a driver is different from a pickup...they are not interchangeable. Pickups as stated are far more likely to be 8K or 8,000 ohms than anything like 8 ohms.

The design for a basic sustainer is quite clear...0.2 ohms wound to 8ohms with a thin profile. There are mods to the Fetzer/ruby circuit that make it more stable, that was not my suggestiong, but any number of non-loading (buffered or preamped) small amplifier circuits (typically LM386 based) will work. The secret is in the driver IMHO...

here's the shorter tutorial...

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984)

Here's a pictorial of actually winding a driver, this is built onot a pickup, but the procedure is identical for this desing...I don't see where the mystery is...

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211)

You do not need excessive power, more power generally causes more problems. The specs for a driver that will work are based on a many tests and verified by many, many people who have successfully replicated the design. There are all kinds of inductance and resonat issues behind why it work with these specs...but 0.5mm wire is so far out of the ballpark, it makes no sense. Also, 150 turns of 0.2mm usually gets you to about 8 ohms...so something seems wrong there as well.

The other issue that people often neglect is the potting...it will not work properly if the coil is not potted solid with glue...this is not a pickup!

Also...on LM386 circuits, I have consistently suggested a 100uF output capacitor to bias the circuit with these drivers to get a more even response and better high string response to it.

...

The Sustainer thread itself was an open thread for a lot of ideas and exploration...it is hardly fair to suggest the project did not have many successes from me and others in it, but it is not the thread on the design, it is the thread from which this and other designs emerged.

My design does work, is fully verified and duplicated over many years and extremely well publicized. What happens though is that people do not find the basic tutorials or follow the instructions given, make naive judgments or fail to understand what is required from the device and the requirements on it...IMHO.

I'm happy to attempt to answer questions if the tutorials are not clear...but if results are not forthcoming, blaming the design is not going to cut it because so many have been successfully made with the correct procedures and specs with complete success.

It's like saying that a stompbox design doesn't work because you thought it would be ok to use any 8pin chip or transistor that "looked" like the one specified, but had completely different pin outs or functions...or decided that glue would be a better option than solder to make it up...it really is nonsense. 0.2mm wire is quite specific enough, this will yield a driver that is efficient enough at the frequencies of the guitar and the power from a small battery power amp and not cause all kinds of EMI problems if built right (potting, care with winding, etc).

I've read most patents and discussed them over the years....for a basic working DIY sustainer, I'd not get to caught up in them. My design is quite different from the commercial versions in many ways anyway. The standard basic driver has been wound onto strat and even half HB pickups with complete success, added to passive strat pickups, or built as stand alone designs by myself and many others. Different pole pieces or a single blade has little effect on the performance of the device.

I spent a year on Hex sustainers (six separate drivers)...there are significant problems and hurdles...it really is not necessary. One thing to consider with such designs, how would you isolate one pole from another? Magnets that close to gether will be attracted to each other and therefore effectively linked. Your coil/s are also electromagnets working on this static field...how will you separate the influence of one on another. In the end, they tend to at least work as one.

This is of course only a necessary  solution if there is indeed a problem. The fact is you can get a pretty ggod response from a DIY device or a commercial version without going to such extremes.

thanx for this usefull reply,
i've been looking over the links you've post already. I'm waiting now for the wire i've order.

I'll test different stuff and let you know.
I've made the driver (without the bobine) with 2 pieces of epoxy and with a ferrite bar. Does ferrite is a good metal for this ?

I've seen over the tutorials that the bobine has to be thin. I did quite catch how wide it must be. Is it 3mm large ?
How does that affect the response of the driver ?

   I know that explained a lot because now I have many new curiosities.
   Magnitude of thanks to psw for sharing valuable information filtered and compiled, apparently from many hours of experimentation, study and good experience.

Quote from: BRingoC on April 09, 2010, 09:12:49 PM
Figure 18(b) shows the bar magnet that is fanned out to give the strings their own sized 'pole'.  Figure 21 shows the three magnets that make up the driver.

That's very interesting how that bar magnet is fanned like that.

I am actually considering a new home for all things DIY sustainers...and perhaps clearing out the nonsense so that at least my working versions are clear and a little more prescriptive. Of course, experimentation is encouraged, but often the failures are from not following the design that gives the results...we'll have to see about that...new home...hmmm

...

Anyway...

If you work for a driver coil in 0.2mm wire and about 3mm deep, you will get a coil (depending on the size of the core) roughly that of a single coil bobbin. A lot depends on that core size and winding and potting and materials and stuff, but generally that's what you will get...the turns will be perhaps 150-200 but measure it as in the pictures till you get about 8 ohms.

This design and formula will give you a coil of sufficient induction and resonance and whatever other criteria that is really behind why these things work and others don't and the formula matters.

The "thin coil" design came about from experimentation...but really, it makes most of the coil high up near the strings where you want the EM energy to be, lowers the profile of the device and so limiting the spread of EMI out of it, makes it conveniently small with the potential to be even smaller (like my later wafer coils), maximizes the amount of overlapping turns, etc.

...

Quote
I've made the driver (without the bobine) with 2 pieces of epoxy and with a ferrite bar. Does ferrite is a good metal for this ?

I'd have to be see it to be sure of what you mean. Ferrite isn't a metal really, it's a ceramic...like ceramic magnets...but as a core it has the right kind of properties (I have used some and extensively in the hex drivers) but they are very hard to "work".

Not sure if you have varried the design to the extent that you are actually winding around the magnet...this can be problematic. If you look at my tele's driver...

the specs again on the whole guitar project is here btw...

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=37370&hl=blueteleful (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=37370&hl=blueteleful)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/SMparts6.jpg)

You can see that this tiny driver is built on a 3mm steel core that sits a top 4 little ceramic magnets (craft shop) glued together to amke the right size. The coil depth is 3mm and very slim (8mm) but with a special epoxy winding technique and years of practice to get it this tight and self supporting...I would not attempt to do similar first go or if you don't have a good working knowledge of epoxies and can access the appropriate slow working and stuff that is this runny. I had to build special molds to do this by the way, but it was essentially "had wound" on a jig I made to do it.

So...it is a pretty simple device though and this clear one shows there are no tricks....it would work just as well with a "bobbin" on top as is usual. 0.2mm wire, 3mm steel core, extremely well potted so there is absolutely no internal vibration potential (the wood glue versions are fine though wont self sup[port themselves without a bobbin of course, but it has to be wound with the potting) basic ceramic magnets below.

But the design works well on say a strat pickups bobbins and pole pieces, so that's about a 5mm wide core. I did find that wider is a problem in response. If winding around the magnet to make things more compact...well, that can lead to some problems...it can work. Often though, people don't get simple things like the polarity right...on a single coil you need the Nth or Sth pole up. If multiple magnets you need the same consistently.

Really, I'd need to know exactly, probably with pictures, how the thing is put together and what you are proposing. While it may seem that if you want to make a super compact driver like the one on my tele, winding around the magnet is the obvious way, in fact winding round the magnets (which would be way to wide at about 8mm anyway on this...and don't go down the neodymium thing either) would make it less efficient and a lot bigger...

...

Ok...well take the patents with a grain of salt...most of these things never got anywhere near used or production or showed to be effective strategies anyway. The "fanned core" is an attempt to provide more balanced drive, particularly with the high strings. You will also note that there is an external shield with closer points to make the "appature" of the magnetic field smaller, especially important on high strings and relates to the core width problem...you could be trying to drive the string on a node and antinode and getting no response as a result at certain places and especially at higher frequencies. Many of these things are aimed to correct problems in the design.

It should be noted that most commercial sustainers also aim for a "bi-lateral" dual coil design...again, not like mine

Mine may seem ridiculously simple in comparison, and they are, but it is a fundamentally different approach. A narrow aperture on all strings is fine...hence I prefer a 3mm core or the standard fenders for the basic SC designs like this.

Things like the elaborate external shielding is to try and contain EMI getting into the pickups. My compact designs use their very small size as a means to contain EMI effects to a localized area.

...

That said, I am reminded to remind builders that these things still need a fair distance from the source bridge pickups and any other coils. In use, any other pickups on the guitar (say neck and middle on a strat) and in fact all wiring like the selector are completely bypassed. That means both the hot and ground are connected as noise can be induced in nearby coils (like a transformer effect) and leak into the ground and so the source pickup....this can lead to failure. In testing these things...either hold the driver above the neck far away...but when installed, cut all connections to other coils...and aim to switch these out with the on off switch...this will require a big 4pdt switch function.

The up side is that these things only draw power (unlike commercial sustainers) when the device is switched on and the guitar works as normal with your choice of pickups even without a battery...this applies to the pickup/driver combos too.

...

So, hope I have answered a few questions, it can be difficult to understand sometimes. Basically, the 'bobbin' is the forms that hold the wire on...how wide...well, depending on core size...with a depth of 3mm you should easily fit 8 ohms on a SC sized bobbin...that's about 10mm from side to side...including the core. This will work say with converting a SC strat bobbin and magnet array, filled at the bottom to allow for a 3mm gap at the top to wind to...this is a very common and successful way of doing it. Ding this to one side of an HB also seems to work fine with this technique.

Someone from here has built one quite a while ago by the way and put up something of a tutorial...

http://diy-fever.com/misc/diy-sustainer/ (http://diy-fever.com/misc/diy-sustainer/)

You can see this was wound on a single coil "blocked up" as suggested...as far as I know it worked ok...but another tutorial all the same.

this approach is probably the easiest and neatest approach to take, especially for a first time builder. Being on a pickup gives you more opportunity for height adjustment in the guitar and such.

...

I also looked at the "Ruby"...if the one I know of at RoG there is a buffer in front that will prevent loading...a transistor stage. With an effective driver, I have found a buffer with decent pickups to be adequate, too much preamp gains only going to introduce distortions that might affect efficiency...if the bridge pickup is low powered, well maybe a little bit more is required.

What it lacks is the provisions in the data sheet of the LM386 to prevent internal oscillation that I suggest...

(http://www.runoffgroove.com/ruby.png)

http://www.runoffgroove.com/ruby.html (http://www.runoffgroove.com/ruby.html)

Now...understand I have not built nor endorsing these things for this project...but there is no reason that an LM386 circuit can't work and that's what I use most of the time including my own new circuits. It is simply a small non-loading circuit design...

However...

Say, on the ruby to put it up to my specs...

that 220uF output cap...I use a 100uF to get better high string response and bloom in the harmonics...it biases the circuit to work the high strings higher and less "lag" that might cause a bit of phase problems...again with the high string response.

Ok...otherwise...I use a 10uF cap from 7 to ground and the same between pins 1 & 8 in circuit with the gain set pot there. This seems to help with internal oscillation a bit should that be a problem. That "zobel network" of the 10ohm and 47n is important...be sure that resistor is 10 ohms not 10K ohms or something silly! Those values seem about right.

I have a few extras typically on my boards, a power diode to protect things if the battery is put in back to front, a resistor to provide a separate power out for an LED, those kinds of touches, but they are not performance enhancing.

But...so much depends on the driver...no circuit will make a bad driver better. If it is inefficient or putting out excessive EMI or the aperture of the field is way out or excessive or the design is significantly altered...well more power is only going to make it worse! You may well find that you can not run these circuits at full power anyway with a good driver...and that's actually a good thing, more clean headroom, less EMI everywhere...all that matters is that it works right.

...

Ok...so will try and keep tabs on this thread, but am moving house. I have updated contact details...but you know...changing ISP, going wireless...all kinds of things can go wrong in this process...

...

PS...we will see how things go, but I do have my own "circuit design" and a "wafer coil" that I had planned to sell...that is why I am not completely forthcoming in what I use these days...though the past is there to see and it's a similar kind of thing with SMD's and a different control function. After this move I may be able to do something along those lines with built circuits that are tested...I might even reserect the "wafer coils" that fit a standard strat type pickup to convert the neck pickup into a pickup/driver...but we will see.

Also, suggestions for a new home for this project are welcome...email me perhaps to avoid politics

thank you very much for this answer with a lot of details !!

i've made my first try with my ferrite driver. It works quite well.
I did it with 0.2 mm²  wire as you said.
The only problem i have is with the high E string.
Something weird happen too. I could'nt check the impedance with my multimeter...
It gave me strange values....i've made around 175 turns and i check sevral time the resistance.
Here i'm around 16 ohm not kohm but ohms with 175 turns. Ive check my multimeter and it's ok working fine with known restance.

Weird isn't it...
I have already did some pickups with no problems checking the resistance time to time while winding but here it seems that there is a problem somewhere...

No way to modify a post here ?

I was thinking of my resistance problem
Maybe my wire is bad ? The enamel is perhaps bad....
I've changing values...

I took this one it's in french :
http://www.conradpro.fr/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=10051&productId=116094&langId=-2&ItemHighLightId=116098&from_fh=1&category=recherche

Here you can download specs :
http://www1.produktinfo.conrad.com/cgi-bin/dlc/dlc.cgi?art=607568&ins=62&lang=FR

I've already used the same wire with 0.05 mm for a pick up built and it works just perfect.
i've translate a few and it seems that it's enameled with polyurethan

Hello again...

Reading the resistance of a coil should be no different from reading that of a resistor. The enamel insulation needs to be well stripped and your probes clean to get a good consistent reading, an appropriate setting on the meter for low ohms is also required of course. This has been the problem for me when such things occur. The glue potting also can cause problems with making a good reading. The actual insulation enamel makes little to no difference, any loss of enamel occasionally in reading will be re-insulated by the glue potting. That sized roll of wire should make a couple of the things I think...it's much as I used to use.

You will see that I wind with glue in that pictorial but was well prepared and even soldered the hookup lead to the starting point to make reading occasionally as I wind possible, easy and accurate.

The resistance is a guide to the successful coil in this design specs. A bigger core will of course radically effect the number of winds, so that is why winds are not specified...but even winding style can effect things a lot. The real thing that is necessary is the resonance and inductance of these devices, so again, the wire gauge and other aspects of the design along with the resistance as a guide, should get you a driver with the required qualities to work fine. (note: resistance in terms of pickup power and qualities are the same, a guide and often misleading at that).

Now...if you have a driver of 16 ohms...it is way over spec, so it would not surprise me if the high e didn't respond as expected. Again, very little to go on here, no pics or details of circuit (are you using a 100uF output cap on a LM386 based circuit for instance). When you say ferrite driver, is this the core or is it a ceramic magnet. Recent new information leads me to believe that inductance wise, ferrite may well not be the best of inductance and so resonance reasons (it will not show in a resistance measurement either) and it is very hard to work with. More details and explanation for this deviation in design would help a lot.

It's with noting that as you wind, typically the resistance is very slow and you can go a haundred winds before close to spec...as you wind more the resistance increases fast. 175 turns is not unreasonable, but it depends a lot on what it is turned around of course...i think mine would be a little less. I have had drivers work very well with only slightly more than 7 ohms btw...so you do not want to go much higher than 8. If you are having trouble reading the things, it's hard to be sure what the actual value is. Don't forget the potting though, this is a crucial thing....there needs to be absolutely no internal vibration and the end result should be neat, reasonably tight (the sides pushed in) and wrapped in tape and let to set solid.

It could be though that you get high e drive if you were to tweak the circuit with the 100uF output cap or play around with values to get a response you find musical. The driver is much like a speaker, but you can not hear it, you need to go on the effect it is having. Now, if you had a speaker that was too bass-y, your response would be to turn up the treble to compensate...these are the kind of tweaks that make a working system into a great and musical sounding and responsive system and seems to be often overlooked.

Anyway, sounds like you are making progress. Few wind a great driver first time around even with sticking to the specs...some things can take a little practice. In fact, people who really get into this after having success, seem to be constantly building newer and more elaborate versions. There is a renewed interest at the moment in dual coil systems, I've not been entirely convinced of the benefits of this, but there are other design strategies that will work. For this design to work properly though, the details (wire gauge, potting, resistance, core, dimensions (thickness of coil) and such are important elements for results like I have been getting. Keep at it...

i've found where the probleme where.
I used crocodie type wire to connect my multimeter and burn the enameled to remove it.
That's bad !!
You must be plugged to the wire very close with the multimeter to have good value. And to remove the enamel use a knife because while burning i think few enamel stay on the wire. (am i clear enought)
I keep on improving stuff. I'll try to post photos and sound quick !

I'm also working on a double design : 6 long pole magnet sustainer/pickup at the same time
on top a 3 mm wide driver
under a pickup

YES...extremely bad. If you use long leads you are adding more length and so resistance to the coil. Burning wire is no excuse...gently scraping with the back of a knife or gently rubbing it with some light wet and dry will get a good connection. When potting with glue (an important part of the project) it is also easy to get glue everywhere, so this need to be cleaned of course...it does though  reseal the insulation to prevent shorts.

You really do not need an iron at all to build the driver till it is finished...best leave the thing well away!

...

QuoteI'm also working on a double design : 6 long pole magnet sustainer/pickup at the same time
on top a 3 mm wide driver
under a pickup

I may not be following this, but don't get too far ahead with the ideas and there is plenty of material to look at to get an idea on what has been attempted.

Putting a driver under a pickup will not work for instance...it needs to be as close t the strings as possible. Many have made dual coil systems including me, some with HB conversions...but there are some issues...you may need to get a far bigger grip on the problems at hand before getting to carried away with the things.

There is a project at the moment I know of that is a proposal for a dual coil bi-lateral design with coils optimized for each string set. He works more with the facts and figures than perhaps I do, but he is chasing increased efficiency to lower EMI and power consumption and for more control.

The specs I have given produces a coil generally with an inductance and resonance at 8 ohms resistance that will work throughout the range of the guitar with an appropriate amp. This is a wire gauge of 0.2mm. However, with alternate coil designs, this may be radiacally different to produce the same effects.

A driver below a pickup is not a practical proposition...a bit more study and or experimentation will reveal why. The project and principles are fairly basic, but the details are important and the whole thing is a balancing act. To have any effect on the strings at that kind of distance, you would need to feed it so much power and the eMI spread would make it squeal uncontrolably...or simply not work at all.

But as always...I may have envisioned the proposition wrong and need more details to properly assess it.

Oh...and if not mentioned earlier, swapping the output cap on an LM386 amp to 100uF tends to help bring out the higher strings a lot better...sometimes these circuits need a little tweaking to get the drivers to work to their best.

Quote from: BRingoC on April 07, 2010, 11:28:07 PM
The guy that ran that design could talk your ear off without being able to answer a question on the design.  I just gave up thinking someone would come up with the answer so I wouldn't waste any more time on the thing.  Well, I'm still waiting.

Hehe - I agree it seems puzzling how can a thread run that long & still (apparently) not even have an agreed basic circuit in the tutorials? I see a degree of repetition wrt the Fetzer Ruby being used, but never anybody actually coming right on out & affirming - "yep, the Fetzer Ruby is the best in class for a basic sustainer" ...which frankly in the light of 300+ page thread, is a little underwhelming.

The 300 page sustainer thread was an ongoing conversation that just simply grew out of my own personal work. Much of it explores the various options. If it were in search of the ultimate distortion and said, this is it...would anyone believe it, or would you simply get 300 pages of people chipping in with their own ideas and such...so please consider...

I agree with the standard circuit thing, the fetzer ruby is still a viable option and been successful for many, most have problems with the driver actually. Mods for the fetzer ruby and similar LM386 circuits have been posted and pictorials and tutorials plus various blogs of successful builders work based on the design are everywhere. There have been posted a few other basic amplifier circuits that have worked as well...some consider it to be "better"...but who's to say...

"best in class"...well, the whole point was that these things develop, but the basic designs work with any number of basic little amp circuits that are buffered. Unlike stomp boxes, this project is not about a 'circuit'...it is not about signal processing, but the physical activation of the string.

There are also a whole range of different responses and 'effects' available with this technology...there is "no best option"...it depends what you want out of the thing.

My systems tend to sound like a very loud guitar at any volume (even headphones)...in normal mode you get straight strong sustain, but the lower range blooms to a harmonic. In harmonic mode you get quite high predictable harmonics all over the neck.

Some don't want that sound which can be very dynamic. Some want a very even sound, good strong fundamental tones in the bass strings and less of the dynamic effect of the "loud guitar" feel and sound.

Something like this requires a different approach to circuitry. There is a circuit presented by col, much larger than mine, that includes 4 modes and a lot of control over the response and good bass fundamentals.

But still...there are more options should you be seeking them, many have gone out after hexaphonic drivers and influenced by the features of the Moog guitar for instance.

I personally have a range of extra criteria that I use to mark success...I do not want to lose the neck pickup or be forced to alter the guitar, I need very small circuits and switching systems that can cope with this stuff silently...all kinds of stuff...and to that extent I have developed a whole range of options (pickup/driver combos, very compact drivers only 4mm deep, circuits of only about 1"x1", etc)...but this is not what many others who contribute there want, I am one of the few that have done much work at all on multi-pickup guitar options.

It is not, and never been my responsibility to continue to come up with circuits and say 'this is how it is', I have had enough criticism over that kind of thing in the past...everyone wants something different. There is no "best in class" distortion, everyone likes a different flavor, why should this be any different or that I should be responsible for making that judgment for you. I dare say that you will get some response from all kinds of circuits...noisy cricket, gem, ruby...so many of these kinds of basic circuits...but there is no "best option" if people are not even sure what they want and are not prepared to have a go...and to put the work into the driver and installation issues that are far more important to success.

The level of experience and preparedness to do the thing right is the main problem with projects and much of the 300 pages is trying to fix problems caused by an underestimation of the specifications of drivers, the need to pot things with glue while winding and all the other basic aspects that are essential...no amount of circuitry is going to fix that. Only the other day someone again tried to make up for their poor work and failure to follow the directions by pumping 20 watts into the driver...having to explain that more power is only going to make things worse is a huge part of that 300 pages.

There are moves afoot though to revamp the whole project and start again if people are interested...if so, suggestions of what people expect from it would be appreciated.

As BringoC pointed out, when reading Project Guitar threads, often there a lot of words but the underlying question/issue is seemingly often deflected. Let's see if we can avoid deflection here ......

So, condensing all  you know & all you've learned over many years of researching sustainers  ...which circuit do you actually recommend people construct to go along with your driver type? (& why is there no reference to it in your sustainer tutorial - the driver without a circuit isn't a whole lot of use! It's akin to saying "Here's the stompbox chassis - it's up to you to put what you want inside it...you're on your own")

Or has an actual sustainer circuit not been nailed yet, therefore no recommendations/schematic?

yeah...be nice to see a complete tutorial...video even!...

Are you freakin serious?!?

The answer has been posted in this thread several times, and I can't see how it could be simpler.  As long as the driver coil is built and installed properly, it can be driven by just about any smallish amp circuit capable of working with an 8 Ohm load.  Done.  Period. 

Depending on the specific properties of your guitar and what you intend to do with the thing it might need some filtering either before or after the amp.

I think it's funny to see in a forum like this where DIY and experimentation are encouraged so strongly that there's so much whining about the lack of a "paint by numbers" solution.

Build the driver, build a Ruby (or whatever amp you prefer) and try it.  If it just plain doesn't work, it's far more likely the coil itself will be the problem.

Quote from: ashcat_lt on May 16, 2010, 07:38:14 PM
Are you freakin serious?!?

lol.......... :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

Thanks Ashcat

Really I have to agree, in recent weeks I ahve tried to help people who used playdoh for coil potting apparently, could find the J201 tansistor so jsut left that stage out (I can't get them easily here either, but surely leaving out parts one wouldn't expect it to work) and another that couldn't be bothered gettting the correct wite gauge for my design (o.2mm) so just used the old pickup wire (probably a hair like 0.042) then asked if when it breaks is it ok just to tie the loose ends together..so after many years, and as you point out 300+ pages of people not capable of doing things right...my "attitude" has suffered...

Yes, the huge thread was a discussion about the technology...it is very different from stompbox kinds of signal processing things...and as such explored all comers and variations and was effectively a forum unto itself much like this entire forum.

Originally and for many years, as I have made quite clear repeatedly, but again for people here if I must. Used generic kits that as far as I can tell are available world wide but originated from the magazine "silicon chip" This was the CHAmp (cheap and handy amplifier) which is simply the LM386 data sheet pretty much and it's companion the PreChamp...a two transistor generic preamp for audio applications. I modded these a bit, originally I used a lot of gain in the preamp, I have since scaled back to virtually a buffer as my drivers improved and to avoid EMI and distortion/fizz effects. The LM386 I personally use a 100uF cap on the output to get a response aI like...blooming harmonics in the low end in fundamental mode, strong drive in the high strings, better balance overall...but this can be adjusted to taste or even add a switch to change the things...

There have been a range of other options presented also...some asolutely hate the LM386 on technical performance grounds, some have presented sophisticated forward feed AGC circuits, some have even built in commercial stompbox compressors...

The point is, that "sustainers" are quite different from signal processing, it is a way actually work on the physical world of string vibration. The "project" that developed naturally over many years grew out of my work. But as others contributed, they had differing ideas about the performance, installation and use of this technology.

Early on I set myself a list of criteria and I have had an argument about this before and again today as it happens. For me, I wanted something that produced a different way of actuating the strings, that was musical and dynamic and worked. But in addition, I didn't want to compromise the host guitar in any significant way. So, I needed to retain the neck pickup (the place where the driver would normally be) and I could not allow the circuits to get to large that the guitar needed to be hollowed out, or take so much power that they couldn't run off a 9v battery effectively.

The results of these criteria for "success" in my work is evident...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/blueteleful1/bluetele6.jpg)

This one is on my main guitar, a compact driver that sticks to the scratch plate with double sided tape, the circuit sits under the bridge pickup and the whole thing including the battery fits inside an unmodified telecaster control cavity...one of the smallest there is...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/blueteleful1/bluetele10.jpg)

Even if i were to show exactly what I am using myself these days, would it help...are you adept at SMDs or could even get the parts?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/SMparts5.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/circuitprototype.jpg)

This along with some of my other developments were prototypes for potential commercial distribution...I am not at liberty to offer up this particular circuit, but all the driver details are more than transparent and the details to make your own to spec is freely available in the tutorials and elsewhere from the many who have successfully built this or similar things derived from the parent thread. A range of small amp circuits have proved to be perfectly adequate...but what effect are you seeking anyway from this technology?

Again, here is another avenue I was exploring, and again with an eye to small scale manufacture...the wafer coil...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/n-pickupopenanddriver.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/n-pickupopendriveron.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/n-pickupdriverfitted.jpg)

Now, we are starting to get way out of DIY land don't you think? These are the results of the sustainer project and my work in particular...

The wafer coils and such are far more developed and goes beyond what is commercially available and adhere to the criteria I set for myself, and the effect I was seeking to create.

But there are a range of highly differing views on the matter, some are highly committed to Dual coil systems and dedicated "sustainer guitars"...others want a very even fundamental response, others what to go all out with hex pickups, drivers and sic amps with digital processing...all current projects...

But most seem to be wanting to be spoon fed, for them I have offered up enough information for those who what to to build something that works...say for me.

What others want is rarely if ever stated...I have my criteria, whats yours. Many seem to think that all these things are the same, while others seek to push the boundaries beyond what is commercially available. Many like the "idea" but are not even completely sure what these things do or sound like. I have posted sound clips of the kinds of things I have been going for and plenty of pics like those above of what I have achieved. And of course a whole slew of what others have done in true DIY style...

Control systems, how about these...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/switchpotknob1.jpg)

The so called Uber pots...the base twists to turn on the sustainer with a 4pdt switch, the knob pulls for the harmonic drive...the pot turns for intensity of drive...the sustainer project is always looking for people who are seeking to innovate. If I told you that this was what you have to do, no one would pay attention, I get enough derision already thank you! Perhaps you are not the kind of person up for this challenge. Again, this is not a signal processing stompbox kind of project, it is working on a physical world, it is not plug and play...it involves making the critical component, the driver coil, from scratch, with what you can find, for your particular instrument, yourself!

remember DIY means do it yourself...not have pete do it for you!!! So, my reaction is much like Ashcats and I think it more than valid...doubt your own ability, not the projects worth...perhaps this project isn't for you!

QuoteBuild the driver, build a Ruby (or whatever amp you prefer) and try it.  If it just plain doesn't work, it's far more likely the coil itself will be the problem.

This too pretty much sums it up...there is a step by step pictorial from me on winding a coil, couldn't be more clear...nor is it that hard.

The thing is, people cut corners. The easiest way is to take a single coil pickup... strip it of windings, block up the bottom half (cardboard will do) leaving 3mm at the top...then using PVA as you wind, wind 0.2mm wire a hundred or so turns, pushing in the sides as you go, measure with a multimeter till you get to around 8 ohms...wrap in PVC tape, clamp tight and wait to dry! Instant no fuss driver!

So often this simple process is screwed up...I used superglue...did I say super glue...well how about playdon...does it matter at all...of course it does, these things are electromagnetic, they can have no internal vibrations at all, otherwise it will vibrate and sqeal like a pig and the strings wont...is that so hard to understand...well apparently it is!!!

I present a circuit, this gets even worse, and people jump down my back about it not working. The fetzer ruby was never endorsed by me, it can work, I have offered mods to my specs...but then...I never suggested it. It was plagiarized obviously from RoG and was not designed specifically for this project nor tested by me. I have used a bunch of different amps...but everytime I suggest something, someone wnat something more. And still to this day! Yes, various AGC designs are a lot better...how much are you prepared to route out your guitar to run the things. Others have suggested other things...I have my doubts about the practicality...in the end I find they are plugging the actual guitar into a wall wart...oh, different criteria clearly!!!

So, basically, if you need to be spoon fed, if DIY is not for you, then neither is the sustainer project....

But then, I have had a few drinks tonight...it really isn't that hard to get something that works, many find the whole technology to be addictive...but we are not talking signal processing and there is not "best circuit" this is simply a myth. Look up the sustainer patents, most ru for over fifty pages, even the ebow which includes sustainer stuff is quite extensive. Look up hover (sustainiac) or rose (floyd rose) or the many fernades patents...or look at the archive back to the 1890's before solid state when they were working with this technology on pianos...or look up guys like micheal brook who pioneered a lot of this kind of thing for guitar and never succeeded with patent on the things...you will find circuits that can run to 5 pages...or have a little fortitude, take the formula that I developed to circumvent these things, a much simpler approach that gets the jov done in it's own fashion, and have a go...with an enormous amount of ongoing support...or not...

 :icon_rolleyes:

I'm following this approach for a guitar sustainer and having great success: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=83559.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=83559.0)

The transducer part is finished and I'm getting started building/boxing-up the amp.

How complex this needs to be depends on your goals. If you are looking for perfect sustain, where every note on the guitar sustains and is balanced with other notes - then you probably want to go the more complex route. If OTOH you are looking for something to give you some ambience and harmonic blooming, and while not perfect is certainly much better, more lively and consistent than a loud set of speakers- KVB's simpler approach works just fine. If you want something to give you speaker-like liveliness at low volumes and/or for direct recording, KVB's approach is more than adequate.

I will do some sound clips or video when I'm finished.

Quote from: deadastronaut on May 18, 2010, 09:49:01 AM
:icon_rolleyes:

Exactly (& wasn't that the earlier point - a lot of words, but deflecting the underlying issue ......& still no recommended 'base' schematic!)

I don't think anyone wants to paint by numbers, but equally, nobody wants to waste time reinventing the wheel - but if the person who has spent years on this, can't offer up a 'base' circuit recommendation, then  perhaps that - even after all these years - the 'DIY sustainer wheel' still isn't particularly round yet! (which is what DougH is alluding to above - ie does a job, but a bit uneven).

Oh well - if there's no agreed/acknowledged (well performing) base circuit, I guess I'll make my own way

Quote from: Gurner on May 18, 2010, 01:26:51 PM
perhaps that - even after all these years - the 'DIY sustainer wheel' still isn't particularly round yet! (which is what DougH is alluding to above - ie does a job, but a bit uneven).

Oh well - if there's no agreed/acknowledged (well performing) base circuit, I guess I'll make my own way

Just to be clear- I'm not alluding that PSW's approach is not good or even "perfect". I wouldn't really know. I remember that monster thread but I'm not interested in reading all that, esp if there's nothing definitive in it. After reading a page or two I gave up on it. Not a lot of "value added" as it just read like someone's extremely wordy blog with very little useful info (for me). I have heard clips of the Fernandes unit and IMO it wasn't that impressive. But that was probably just the clips, which didn't really demonstrate anything compelling about it to my ears (and it was years ago).

My only point was to think about what your personal goals for a sustainer would be. If you want "speaker-like" feedback, which is imperfect (i.e. not resonant for all notes) by its nature- KVB's simple approach already does more than that (ambient chord swells and etc too).  If you are looking for something beyond that, then maybe the Fernandez/PSW/pickup approach is more appropriate.

BTW- the thread I linked has all the info you need to try it yourself. When I finish mine I'll write it up as well. No secrets or coyness here. It's a pretty simple system.

Double Post removed

DougH - my apologies & thanks for clarifying....ie  that you were not referring to the Project Guitar DIY sustainer (I'd missed your enclosed link!)

Obviously a sustainer is different things to different people, but in my opinion, even a DIY electromagnetic guitar sustainer should at least yield the basic commercial offering functionality, ie strong controlled, well balanced & even sustain across all strings & fret positions  (ie mainly fundamental frequencies) but with the option of blooming higher harmonics when required.

Having been reading all of the threads over there, regarding the 'base circuit' over at the project guitar forum, some people seem to have achieved what they feel is success with that circuit, and many have criticized the circuit and the lm386. I feel that the popularity of the circuit is due to its simplicity, and the high availability of the parts involved. Regarding the LM386, the first post of this thread is worth noting. (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=43472) Also, a while back, earthtones audio posted a method of making a PWM amp from a LM386, which interested me, but I have yet to build it.

There are many avenues to chase down beyond that. Without going into depth, building better drivers helps, automatic gain control/compression/limiting seems to help balance the response, and phase alignment seems to help the efficiency/strength of the sustainer. Using a different amplifier section than the LM386 is an often argued point as well.

I personally have learned a lot from reading the various patents involved with sustainers, but they are dense. If you want the patent numbers, I can dig them up.

I own a guitar with a Floyd Rose sustainer in it, and while the circuit is complex, and the installation is very invasive on a guitar, the end results have been worthwhile.

Quote from: space_ryerson on May 19, 2010, 01:38:04 AM
Having been reading all of the threads over there, regarding the 'base circuit' over at the project guitar forum, some people seem to have achieved what they feel is success with that circuit, and many have criticized the circuit and the lm386. I feel that the popularity of the circuit is due to its simplicity, and the high availability of the parts involved. Regarding the LM386, the first post of this thread is worth noting. (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=43472) Also, a while back, earthtones audio posted a method of making a PWM amp from a LM386, which interested me, but I have yet to build it.

There are many avenues to chase down beyond that. Without going into depth, building better drivers helps, automatic gain control/compression/limiting seems to help balance the response, and phase alignment seems to help the efficiency/strength of the sustainer. Using a different amplifier section than the LM386 is an often argued point as well.

I personally have learned a lot from reading the various patents involved with sustainers, but they are dense. If you want the patent numbers, I can dig them up.

I own a guitar with a Floyd Rose sustainer in it, and while the circuit is complex, and the installation is very invasive on a guitar, the end results have been worthwhile.

Thank you space_ryerson - when you say "some people seem to have achieved what they feel is success with that circuit" - which circuit do you mean?

It'd be nice to hear which circuit psw actually recommends mating with his driver type shown in the Project Guitar tutorials     ....I see that the monster the main thread started almost seven years ago, so he ought to have have a fair idea of which circuit to recommend by now!

hi guys...i found this on youtube..some russian dude made his own e-bow...

he's got a schematic on there of the amp part of it.....using  a 386

surely this is the same principal?....or is it?..

but with a large coil...or am i a dumbass?...lol..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkQhRFS6sRM&feature=related/url]

(http://runoffgroove.com/ruby.png)

There's one...how many circuits for a buffered amp do you need?

QuoteIf you want "speaker-like" feedback, which is imperfect (i.e. not resonant for all notes) by its nature- KVB's simple approach already does more than that (ambient chord swells and etc too).  If you are looking for something beyond that, then maybe the Fernandez/PSW/pickup approach is more appropriate.

Yeah, that is an interesting idea, but the model C sustainiac like devices put a lot more power than !W into a very powerful electromagnetic tranducer...and devices that I've tried like that tend to make a bit of a racket...and are not responsive all over the neck.,..

QuoteObviously a sustainer is different things to different people, but in my opinion, even a DIY electromagnetic guitar sustainer should at least yield the basic commercial offering functionality, ie strong controlled, well balanced & even sustain across all strings & fret positions  (ie mainly fundamental frequencies) but with the option of blooming higher harmonics when required.

The DIY sustainer can be what you make of it...that's the essence of DIY...also, the reason the thread has gone on so long is that people keep wanting to improve or modify what you can get from the technology.

There is no "perfect" sustainer. Mine does not pretend to mimic the commercial units at all...but it will give strong controlled sustain and harmonics on all strings in any position, predictable and quietly.

How many times does it need to be said, the principle is to regenerate the signal through the driver to move the strings...much like a speaker coil moves it's paper cone. That means an amplifier...I have a circuit that I use generally now, I have published the tweaks to get a response like mine...generally a 100uF output cap will get you in the ball park. If you want even more "control" or "evenness" then you are going to have to add an AGC circuit...now I am sure there are some compressor circuits on this forum you might consider...probably replace the buffer too if going that way.

Sounds like spoon feeding to me. The result of me saying this is THE circuit would be to attract criticism and kill development. I ahve used a multiple of circuits personally, the F/R is one that someone else recomended and many have had succes with that...noisy cricket sounds ok, how about that gem if you have quite powerful HBs...maybe search for a few preamp/LM386 kits...that's what I originally used for ages...

The ebow uses a basic LM386 circuit, it is the general standard for small battery powered amps...but there are others...

But there is no "perfect sustainer" nor is there, nor can there ever be a "definitive" circuit!!!

It's not deflecting, it's just people clearly not understanding the point of it all and seeking out the appropriate circuit from the range available, many right her on this forum.

For my own work, I have long ago achieved a decent balanced and dynamic sustain and harmonic generation. However, some like the more sterile sound of the eveness of a fernandes...I don't! So, the fernandes and similar use a lot of condittioning to make an even sutain and killing off the very qualities that I like...you can't have it all without a lot of switches and circuitry...my role is done for now...

My circuits are purposely tuned to give fundamentals ona ll strings and locations but bloom into harmonics below the note C 5th fret, g string. It does not ahve to do that, it is a sound I like. I get a slower bloom time with less intensity that I can control...and get yet another harmonic on harmonic mode as well....If I wanted a heap of switches on my guitar I could ahve any number of different response dialed in. The point is, what you describe is regularly achieved by many and for years with this DIY stuff, it doesn't sound as tame as the fernandes et al...but then, that's what makes them so lack luster. Generally though there are so many unique implementations and adaptablity just on things like compact drivers or pickup.drivers that the commercial systems don't come close to and a circuit generally 1/4 the size even with DIY parts... The point of the "project" was to take this technology further than teh commercial guys took it, and strip back some of it's complexity and maladaptive features.

But then, this is not a project for everyone, quite likely not for you! But then, it really isn't that much harder surely that attaching a vibrating toy to the headstock and certainly will work a lot better.

If you want a particular recommendation, and you are serious about building this thing, tell me exactly what the guitar and pickups are and what you are seeking in terms of response and I dare say with over 7 years with this stuff I could point you in some direction...there are clips of my guitar about, but it sounds like you haven't heard them...so I suppose there is no point you suggesting that you want to have it sound like me! If looking for off the rack...check Ebay for a commercial unit and go with that...

Quote from: psw on May 19, 2010, 06:33:08 AM
(http://runoffgroove.com/ruby.png)

There's one...how many circuits for a buffered amp do you need?

27,003...lol... :icon_lol:

hi psw...ive been looking around at different pickup/driver designs...

i have an old humbucker pickup ive pulled apart..waheyy i found 2 bobbins inside..with the 6 pole pieces..
i saw a guys pickup/driver where he used the 6 individual pole pieces rather than the metal strip...!

would you recommend this or would you go with the strip like your designs..?
i presume the strip drives it more!..

as for being spoonfed...well i am a bit of a noob and havent a patch on you more knowledgable guys..
we are not all at the same level of understanding..yet!... :icon_redface:
and im sure that all the guys interested in diy appreciate the amount of time and late nights you've obviously
put into this great project...i for one do...now wheres that spoon?...lol...cheers rob. :icon_lol:

Just to be clear - after all these years you've been involved with DIY sustainers, this circuit....

(http://i46.tinypic.com/22dh5y.png)

is your recommended circuit?

If so, what can a DIY builder expect performance wise from your DIY driver & that circuit? (strong/even sustain across all strings etc)

Personally, I'd have though an automatic level control (ALC/AGC etc) would be essential to control the guitar's large dynamic range ...which is missing there - why don't you feel it's necessary? (ie by putting that circuit forward as your recommendation)

BTW - what you call 'spoonfeeding', I call having a vital part of the overall picture to launch from! (why would anyone want to waste time & go over ground that's already been covered  ???) 

FWIW I played more with the KVB idea last night. I think he did this in his demos, but one thing I found extremely effective was to drive the LM386 amp with a pedal. My favorite was a Unidrive booster variation I built, and a Rangemaster works real well too. I'm going to implement an fx loop between the buffer and the two LM386 inputs so that the effect (Rangemaster for example) won't load the guitar signal going to the guitar amp. This way I can still use a simple Y adapter to split the signal coming out of the guitar.

The Unidrive derivative is a full-frequency boost and it really made the guitar/sustainer come alive. I was getting endless sustain above the 12th fret on most notes, many that didn't react at all before. The Rangemaster added some very sweet harmonic blooms (like Rangemasters do). And all of this was with a clean guitar tone. Altogether I'm very pleased and I think I'm finally ready to finish this build.

One mistake I think people are making is to think there is a schematic that will describe this kind of system adequately. It's a bunch of different parts and the amplifier is a pretty small part of it. I have spent much more time with the transducer, working out where and how to mount it, getting the coupling right between it and the guitar, etc. Don't like the Ruby/Smoky/Little-Gem? Pick an amp- any amp. You may have to do some tuning with coupling caps and etc so breadboard it first. I love the Little Gem Mk2 because it is very quiet and stable.

Thanks Doug - I'm not getting too hung up on the amp - that's the easy bit wrt a sustainer circuit (after all it's just one amp chip plus a JFET or opamp buffer)

Since it's so hard to find out what he's recommending over there on those Project Guitar threads, I thought I'd simply ask psw outright for his recommendation for a supporting sustainer circuit - he has recommended a runoffgroove 'ruby, which, at the end of the day is just a preamp/amp. I'm surprised that after many years of sustainer threads/discussion over on Project Guitar, that's his recommendation?!

Having recently looked at a few sustainer patents (& a schematic of the Kramer sustainer kicking about on the net), it would appear, all the commercial sustainers circuit have a form of built in compression & a bit of phase compensation.....but not the one put forward by psw above?

So back to my points for psw...

What kind of sustain could a builder expect from that rather basic setup? (eg is the sustain weak on some strings/frets, uncontrolled, any distortion etc?)

Why hasn't he recommended a circuit with even a basic AGC to restrain the dynamic range little?

Why doesn't he include his recommended circuit above in his tutorials? (because winding a driver is only half the sustainer story)

Quote from: Gurner on May 19, 2010, 03:55:22 AMThank you space_ryerson - when you say "some people seem to have achieved what they feel is success with that circuit" - which circuit do you mean?

Sorry to be unclear. I meant using the fetzer-ruby circuit with an 8ohm .2mm wound driver.

Quote from: Gurner on May 19, 2010, 10:02:56 AM
Since it's so hard to find out what he's recommending over there on those Project Guitar threads, I thought I'd simply ask psw outright for his recommendation for a supporting sustainer circuit - he has recommended a runoffgroove 'ruby, which, at the end of the day is just a preamp/amp. I'm surprised that after many years of sustainer threads/discussion over on Project Guitar, that's his recommendation?!

As far as I understand it, PSW has withheld his circuits since he is considering doing something commercial with it.

QuoteHaving recently looked at a few sustainer patents (& a schematic of the Kramer sustainer kicking about on the net), it would appear, all the commercial sustainers circuit have a form of built in compression & a bit of phase compensation.....but not the one put forward by psw above?

Can you point me in the direction of the Kramer sustainer schematic? If it's the more recent version, then that's the same as the Floyd Rose sustainer. I've been meaning to trace out my Rev C Floyd sustainer circuit, but it's double sided with leads running under parts. It's a little harder than tracing out a Fuzz Face  :icon_lol:

hello space_ryerson - tks for the update. Fair enough, holding back his circuit if he wants to sell them (I'd have expected to see them for sale by now though - are they? No?  ....hmm  :icon_rolleyes: ), but that shouldn't prohibit him just giving a simple recommendation for an accompanying sustainer circuit in his tutorial....at the minute, anyone new has to wade through (prolific) egotistical textual mud over on Project Guitar ....only to find out that there is no circuit recommendation at the end of it all!

Sorry, it was the floyd rose sustainer I meant (I always get the two muddled)  - and a quick sortie using google images reveals it's yours, lol!!

http://spaceryerson.com/sustainer/images/FRS_Schematic.jpg

Now that's funny! Unfortunately, that schematic doesn't have part values, and the Rev C seems to have some differences, such as adding what looks like an inductor to my eyes. By the way, that schematic is just from one of the patents.

I too find that forum very frustrating. I frequently hold back from posting simply because I don't have time to bicker.

If it's of any use to you or anyone else, here are pictures of the top and bottom of the Floyd Rose circuit board (but the part numbers don't correspond):
Top (http://spaceryerson.com/sustainer/images/top-of-board.jpg)
Bottom (http://spaceryerson.com/sustainer/images/bottom-of-board.jpg)

Whilst the values would have been useful, it's easy enough to get the jist of what they're doing - I suppose if I was a night shift security guard on some out the way empty industrial estate that I could sit down and track down every component on your photo towards filling in the schematic blanks (but I'm not so I won't!)

I agree about the bickering over on Project Guitar - but I guess when there are big egos involved it's to be expected - but yeah....avoid!

Well...PG and this project does attract it's fair share of trolls...

I simply started it as a project like any other that I was doing personally...just like building a gui9tar or any of the other stuff...it took on a life of it's own...

But, I suspect in Gurner, a certain amount of trollish-ness and pedantic-ism that exceeds and no indication that he has or seeks to build the thing...but finds a bit of sport in following around the project and knocking it for all the things that it is and was...

Really if the only suggestion, which I am not really sure even is in these posts, is that you don't like me or my ego (which is not a dirty word btw, not even a 4 letter one) or anything else about me or my work...why are you following it. You surely must be aware that in the last year or so, all threads on sustainers have been closed down at PG and all discussion about it and even the threads disappeared, because of a few miscreant who want to hammer on about personal things about me or what I do without anything at all to show for it. Meanwhile over there, there are six active threads by others making it or similar ideas or exploring the technology further.

...

Look, I made a thing that works, I showed how it works, I built very many over many years with all kinds of circuits...many, many people over that time made the same or similar from that design or went on to make their own to their specifications.

Clearly Gurner has missed the whole point of my approach, perhaps he has read a few too many patents, I have certainly read all that I could find, all the way back to the 1890's...but my approach is different and the comparisons and skepticisims are unfounded as you are not comparing the same things.

As his name suggests, perhaps better at pulling faces than any cohesive objective argument...and clearly hijacking threads to take shots at me instead of wishing to partake in the project...you guys really should start your own forum on it...you could do a whole conspiracy site that psw is keeping world changing technology from everyone while simultaneously holding the argument that I am so much hot air and these things couldn't possibly exist...which of course it doesn't, it's all in your mind that I have a secret super circuit...dear, oh dear. Many of the ideas have come directly from this site for goodness sake...

...

I did not set out to replicate the commercial systems, I set out to explore the technology which I successfully did in many ways and at some cost. I wanted to see if it were possible to take this idea, and the skills I have (limited as they may be) and try different approaches to the things, different sounds, different applications. You say it's ego, but the reality is that they worked. And, they worked with a wide variety of circuits...and without the need for complexity that is described in the patents...

But for every answer, there's always a come back, a shifting of the goal posts...ok, it works but it doesn't sound like a fernandes. Well, should it? Some actually don't like that sound. Oh, it's not "even"...well depends what you mean...all the strings sustain, you get harmonics everywhere and predicatably, there is zero noise...sounds like a sustainer to me...oh, but not like the one I'd like...well then, that's a different matter...lots of people feel that way, build on what I ahve done and create things that sound different again, according to their tastes and criteria.

And while I asked, there is no reply from Gurner as to whether this person actually wants to make the thing or even to describe exactly what he wants. Or even if he has heard the clips of mine...all it is is whining that I don't give away "my circuit" (I said it wasn't magic, so it is not my ego, but the magic you subscribe to it at work surely?)...well, lets see...here are some...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/pre-pwramp1.jpg)

Very much like the various things I was doing in the early years while designing the driver...just a simple preamp and LM386 circuit...the whole point was to develop the driver so that it didn't need phase correction or elaborate phase correction...but I am hardly going to "recommend this though it works. For one, it is not wholly my design, you can get these things everywhere...it's just a preamped LM386 like the ruby and countless others. From the look of it, it is just your average opamp preamp circuit with variable gain. I did go in for complex AGC from a very early time...lets see...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/1892Sustainer.jpg)

hahaha...I always like this one...a sustainer patent from the 1890's...nothing new under the sun...no LM386's in those days...

here's a realization of the kind of things we were shooting for...again, different criteria...we were looking for low mod, better controls and implementation...not my drawing but a talented artist who also made several great sustainers...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/boxHblue2.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/boxHH2.jpg)

Ahhh...here's a typical fernandes install in a jem...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/fernandes01.jpg)

Exactly the kind of thing I was seeking to avoid, huge cut outs in the guitar, lack of neck pickup choice, lack of control placement and options...so many things that could be improved over what is being offered...

This is the commercial technology...does it even look like mine?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/sustainiac-stealth-plus-04.jpg)

Ahh...I hope you are appreciating me having to go through 22 pages of photographs documenting the work I have done publicly to find these things...some circuits...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/dual386.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/amppre2.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/amppre1.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/amp3-1.jpg)

Now...the first one if I am not mistaken is a Gem MKII (I didn't find it that good, I don't need that much power, but an interesting design for sure)...and various preamps and such...

So you see...there is no "ONE" circuit for these things...you are missing the whole point...

...

The aim was to produce drivers that would work by their inherent nature to drive the strings efficiently within the range of the guitar. Thereby, not needing a lot of AGC (though if you want a very tame less dynamic sound, you'd want to explore those areas) or any phase correction.

If I said it doesn't need a heap of phase correction because it forces the string to gradually move in phase with the driver and that the design is such that the phase is not bad enough to prevent proper operation...or that the driver is not capable or reproducing with it's resonant capabilities excessive runaway harmonic generation or even drive the strings beyond a fairly even maxed out range (depending on the power given it) (thereby creating it's own AGC) would you believe me? No, cause it does not fuel your fantasies about magic circuits and my methods of arriving at this simple device and formula. More recently, I have not measured and proved it mathematically...but you can hear it, it has been independently duplicated time and again, why then the skepticism.

If it were so easy, if there has been others working on this (and there surely have been a few) where are they before the sustainer thread, where are they now, where is the fruits of their labours. The sustainer thread has spawed not only dozens of successful designs of my own...had people duplicate some of that work...it has provided the only forum I know for such things and dozens of spin off projects. But, unlike those, and the many that didn't go anywhere, I personally am some how responsible for the frustrations of trolls to "get it"...hmmm

So, where were we, tripping down memory lane in the photobucket account...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/prodproto2.jpg)

Above is a working prototype of one of my newer designs that didn't get exposure because of the trolls and the closing ddown of discussion that this kind of thing leads to...the "wafer coil"...not really that much different except in size and construction for the original ones...quite possibly a commercial proposition, at least in the supply of such self supporting coils for experimenters.

Now...it is clearly not a DIY proposition, but one of the main trollish detractors over there claimed it couldn't and cant work...built one himself and surprise surprise...worked...then the goal posts moved...ah, but not like I'd want it to...sheeesh!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/circuitprototype.jpg)

A pic of my apparently "secret magic circuit"...does it really look like there is that much in it. Do I seem like the kind of person who gives up such things because some guy wants to pull faces at it? No, that's why more about it hasn't been released...but does it really look that "impressive" that this is the secret magic thing? No...it is impressive in it's size, it has improved drive control, it has onboard circuit protection and direct LED power...and yes, even a touch of AGC in there...but that's not the "secret"...the secret has always been the various driver designs...

And how did I arrive at these things...well lets see if there are any pics...ahhh...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/DSCF0293.jpg)

yes...a bucket of aborted coils from the wafer coil project alone...a couple of weeks work there...

I used trial and error methods making literally hundreds of variations and quite a few installations for no financial gain I can assure you...and mostly quite openly so that others wouldn't have to. And yet, and yet, there are still these trolls who can't accept the beeding obvious, the things work and have been verified by others time and again...you can hear mine for a start...why is that so hard to accept that some have had to stoop to my private life or replicate the exact same things with a "different amp and preamp" and suggest it is their own, nothing related to mine...even though the driver is identical and the circuit is exactly what I prescribe...a buffered or preamped small power amp!!!!

Again in the last post...oh "if I were a night shift guard"...well buddy, more power to you, clearly you can afford a commercial system and this seems to be exactly what you are kind of after...so why even mess your hands at DIY projects. Oh, I see no evidence of that, you apparently have the time and inclination to just troll about making suggestions about peoples occupations for no other purpose but to boost your own ego through lack of initiative.

I don't know what you actually do, or people like you...apparently not much...but a lot of the circuits are available for most things at the patent web site and the prominent patents are linked on page seven of the thread and how to go about finding them.

I suggest that you contribute, build something, go do some research, come up with some actual goals that you want...just anything...but you and others that simply want to hijak anothers project with mis-inforamtion and unhelpful abuse should really...well get a better occupation...perhaps a security guard where you can mull over all those conspirocies you seem to harbour towards me personally...you'd be good at that!

Quote from: DougH on May 19, 2010, 09:32:18 AM

One mistake I think people are making is to think there is a schematic that will describe this kind of system adequately. It's a bunch of different parts and the amplifier is a pretty small part of it. I have spent much more time with the transducer, working out where and how to mount it, getting the coupling right between it and the guitar, etc. Don't like the Ruby/Smoky/Little-Gem? Pick an amp- any amp. You may have to do some tuning with coupling caps and etc so breadboard it first. I love the Little Gem Mk2 because it is very quiet and stable.

Yes...quite right...the placement of these things makes a difference, just like the qualities of the driver oil does in mine. I did build a little gem mkII (see above pic) but it wasn't quite right "for me"...I didn't need that much power or the power it consumes haveing to run off a single battery for instance.

Quotehi psw...ive been looking around at different pickup/driver designs...

i have an old humbucker pickup ive pulled apart..waheyy i found 2 bobbins inside..with the 6 pole pieces..
i saw a guys pickup/driver where he used the 6 individual pole pieces rather than the metal strip...!

would you recommend this or would you go with the strip like your designs..?
i presume the strip drives it more!..

as for being spoonfed...well i am a bit of a noob and havent a patch on you more knowledgable guys..
we are not all at the same level of understanding..yet!... icon_redface
and im sure that all the guys interested in diy appreciate the amount of time and late nights you've obviously
put into this great project...i for one do...now wheres that spoon?...lol...cheers rob. icon_lol

You can see I ahve made amny drivers with individual poles...so...sure, I'd choose the slug pole, a 3mm coil so fill up the bottom half of the coil and wind as described...

got to run now...

Dude, what is it with you & the keyboard?

Quote from: psw on May 20, 2010, 09:46:30 PM
So you see...there is no "ONE" circuit for these things...you are missing the whole point...

Erhm, no I'm not - & I think that after 7 years, it's surprising that you apparently continually duck recommending circuit - if you can't recommend one after all these years, then ok....I'll leave the reader to make of that what he will.

So, since you're being so cagey about the circuit - do you actually have you a sustainer system for sale?

i think i'll stick to my ebow for now dudes...

or i might just play a note and do the rest of the sustain with my voice..whooooo...wheeee...lol...

it all seems a bit spurious......... :icon_rolleyes:

Quote from: deadastronaut on May 21, 2010, 04:35:09 AM
i think i'll stick to my ebow for now dudes...

I'm not surprised - because it's now quite clear that when it comes down to a DIY sustainer circuit ....the one being touted is way too basic for a guitar sustain system - therefore, if you want a decent DIY sustainer system, you're gonna have to get cracking with the breadboard! (you got to wonder what folks have been upto for all those years if a runoffgroove ripoff cct - with not even the most basic of dynamic range control - is the main recommendation for a sustainer system  ????)

Quote from: deadastronaut on May 21, 2010, 04:35:09 AM
it all seems a bit spurious......... :icon_rolleyes:

My thoughts entirely.

Quote from: psw on May 20, 2010, 09:53:59 PM
Yes...quite right...the placement of these things makes a difference, just like the qualities of the driver oil does in mine. I did build a little gem mkII (see above pic) but it wasn't quite right "for me"...I didn't need that much power or the power it consumes haveing to run off a single battery for instance.

Yes, I'm putting mine in a floor foot pedal and running it off of a DC power source. I wouldn't want to try running it off of a battery. I had too many noise problems with the single-ended version although that was on the breadboard and it may not be that noisy when boxed up. The extra power came in handy as well with this particular transducer.

What works and what doesn't very much depends on the transducer you use, mounting location and method, the guitar, etc. It's more of a mechanical system (in my case) than an electronic one- and the mechanics will dictate what electronics are needed. Definitely not "one size fits all", not in my experience anyway. There's really no way of determining what will work without jumping in and getting your hands dirty.

Quote from: Gurner on May 21, 2010, 05:21:33 AM
I'm not surprised - because it's now quite clear that when it comes down to a DIY sustainer circuit ....the one being touted is way too basic for a guitar sustain system - therefore, if you want a decent DIY sustainer system, you're gonna have to get cracking with the breadboard! (you got to wonder what folks have been upto for all those years if a runoffgroove ripoff cct - with not even the most basic of dynamic range control - is the main recommendation for a sustainer system  ????)

I should say that some of the other posters on that forum have made more sophisticated circuits, but none of those circuits have been posted. I agree, you're gonna have to just breadboard and play with it. That's what I was planning to do whenever I get around to making a DIY sustainer.

Quote from: space_ryerson on May 21, 2010, 04:00:13 PM
I should say that some of the other posters on that forum have made more sophisticated circuits, but none of those circuits have been posted. I agree, you're gonna have to just breadboard and play with it. That's what I was planning to do whenever I get around to making a DIY sustainer.

Yes space, I've skimmed through parts of that 300+ page thread & have seen some elaborate circuits by others - but in the light that psw seems to monopolize all the sustainer chat going back Eons - for a circuit recommendation, I'd have thought he'd table something better than a basic circuit simply lifted from runoffgroove    ...where's the ALC/AGC, where's the EQ/phase comp etc, etc. (that Fetzer Ruby circuit isn't particularly well suited at all)

Behind the torrents of text, repetitive pics & accompanying egotistical nonsense..... something doesn't add up.

Quote from: Gurner on May 21, 2010, 04:44:44 PM
- for a circuit recommendation, I'd have thought he'd table something better than a basic circuit simply lifted from runoffgroove    

Simple, that circuit obviously works well enough for him, so there's no need for anything "better".

QuoteWhat works and what doesn't very much depends on the transducer you use, mounting location and method, the guitar, etc. It's more of a mechanical system (in my case) than an electronic one- and the mechanics will dictate what electronics are needed. Definitely not "one size fits all", not in my experience anyway. There's really no way of determining what will work without jumping in and getting your hands dirty.

Exactly, and the electro-magnetic sustainer is no different...

Quite why Gurner and his ilk are so adamant about this attacking I don't know. Why it is reserved entirely for me is also a mystery. Where is the circuit..here's one...not good enough? Clearly, not interested in building a sustainer at all as there is no indication of the guitar which seeks to put it on to or even the most surface research from which to criticize...not apparently taken the time to listen to mine and others results, nothing...

Many circuits from me and others have been presented, it is only 'the power source'. That he "doesn't believe" is really his problem, not important since he seems little interested in building the thing and completely obsessed with what I did in my last circuit, not any of the dozens previously or the many others other people have contributed, many of them not given either.

Why is this important, I don't "recommend" circuits to people like this because they are not after it for the purposes of building one, nor are they after if to contribute to the project. I don't "endorse" circuits, I didn't propose the F/R for instance, I think it lacks the datsheet components for stability, I think the preamp for this application is a bit clunky (trim pot to bias the transistor for instance) for this application and after a while, some decided they could make some money off of it by touting it on ebay as suitable for this application, using my thread to sell the idea (even though it is the work of RoG regardless). Many have come along with such ambitions.

Quote
I'm not surprised - because it's now quite clear that when it comes down to a DIY sustainer circuit ....the one being touted is way too basic for a guitar sustain system - therefore, if you want a decent DIY sustainer system, you're gonna have to get cracking with the breadboard! (you got to wonder what folks have been upto for all those years if a runoffgroove ripoff cct - with not even the most basic of dynamic range control - is the main recommendation for a sustainer system  Huh?)

This is just so twisted in this light. I posted a RoG design because this poster seemed incapable of identifying a basic preamped/buffered amp to power the project. I personally have never ripped off RoG and am quite sensitive to such an accusation, I presented this not as a recomendation but as one of dozens of easily obtainable schematics of what I was recommending...a basic buffered amplifier.

Sure, there are lots of people who are taking out their breadboards and working from this stage to go further, to make the concepts work to their tastes and goals. Sure, a basic amplifier is the minimum pre-requisite to sustain strings, if you want to go in different directions with it, there are plenty of options and AGC and other such things may well be of interest...there are such circuits to be found, just like the amplifier circuit I found, to play with...don't me to recommend them to you surely? The first step would be to see if you can make a successful driver that can run off the simplest system and take it from there.

Quoteit's now quite clear that when it comes down to a DIY sustainer circuit ....the one being touted is way too basic for a guitar sustain system - therefore, if you want a decent  DIY sustainer system, you're gonna have to get cracking with the breadboard! (you got to wonder what folks have been upto for all those years if a runoffgroove ripoff cct - with not even the most basic of dynamic range control - is the main recommendation for a sustainer system  Huh?)

Again...

# Clear from what...it's clear you have done no research other to jump on a band wagon of attack or goad psw for circuits
         I've seen no evidence of that you have even heard my sustainers
         I've seen no evidence that you have read the tutorials
         I've seen no evidence that you even want to build one of these things
         I've seen no evidence of you taking in the range of criteria that I have presented
         I've seen no indication that your vitriol is spread to the dozens of people working on this project and their work, just me...reason?
# I've specifically not "touted" anything...the attitude and behaviour gives me no encouragement to do so...
        I thought the main criticizim was I didn't tout my own circuits to you!!!
# The driver provides much of what you are missing here...you only see a circuit. The driver is doing the work.
         It's characteristics, plus tweaking to the unknown parts of any project
            (the guitar and particularly the pickup, the skill at which someone can construct the coils, etc)
# Too basic...missing the whole point again, I started with the premise of a basic circuit and designed the driver characteristics to it!
        The whole point was to create a driver that could run off basic circuits.
         A driver that needed no phase correction to work within it's range of operation
         A driver that had in part, characteristics that did provide some degree of evenness of response
         I set out not to copy the commercial units response,
             I always sought a more dynamic, organic response than things like the ebow and sustainers of the past.
         They have to be small to accomodate all the design criteria, and small means basic...
              these things are designed for fairly unmodified guitar applications
# Clearly it does work, so these circuits are not too simple,
         only the argument that doesn't take into account the whole system and speaks from assumptions...
# There is not "a" guitar sustain system, there is a principle of feedback loop string driving...
          the ebow sounds one way, a fernades their way, mine sound like mine do...
# Decent is subjective. You have not heard nor played mine. Many people ahve made them and enjoyed the response and found it "decent"
          "decent" is a completely subjective term.
              Decent for who?...I have not heard your criteria from which you are basing such assertions,
                 or that you know that mine does not actually do what you might find 'decent"
           Does my "system" sustain on all strings with no dead or overly hot spots? Yes it does!
             Does it generate harmonics all over? Yes it does!
          If you want to use a term like "decent" apply it to yourself, not to me,
            not to the people who have built and deemed their work decent or to those who would likely have a different idea of what they
              want than you obviously don't!
# the 7 years were to encourage and support people and provide a place for people to discuss such things.
             I successfully built my devices many many years ago, I've been refining and finding new applications since

...

Ok, lets take another scenario...hypothetical

I sign up here, I start a thread that suggests I'd like to build a distortion. I get some parts, I build something with some tinkering, it distorts. I say look at this, I built a distortion box...

Ok...well, I wouldn't expect Gurner to jump down his throat with...well, that's not not a decent distortion, there is no way that those clipping diodes or LED's or whatever is in the thing are capable of producing that sound. You are lying, there's more to it...and what about that "look at me" ego of yours, why don't you just keep it to yourself, I don't want to know about your crappy distortion box, I want to know about a decent distortion, only Gurner knows the definition of decent, and though I have not heard this, and clearly don't understand how it works....It is not "decent" till I say it is!!!!

Ok...lets look at a real life sustainer type device...the KVB idea

I had done many similar things as well. You don't see me jumping down the neck of people who do with criticism because I personally don't like that kind of "system". Similarly, it is curious as to why Gurner isn't as well, must be something personal. So, it doesn't produce the results not applied in a manner that I personally like, that does not invalidate it or suggest that it doesn't "work". It simply doesn't meet a whole raft of my own personal criteria for sustaining strings.

The eBow thing...well, this is a fine device, I have made these kinds of things as well...but it is a very different beast again. Ironically, my sustainers have a very ebow quality. What is actually inside the epoxy casing...oh a simple LM386 amp...can't be done.? Oh, and the patent describes any amplifier known to the art, or some such. Exactly where I drew inspiration for my approach. I designed my work, like the ebow, to run from simple amplification circuits. The Ebow doesn't tell you what's in it, not even in the patent...why is Gurner not pursuing the Ebow guy so vehemently...I don't know, must be personal!

...

You know, Gurner has joined up only recently, very hard to know where or why he turned up to post here. I see he is from the UK, the home of other notable critics...could it be related to the person kicked off of PG after closing all the threads on the subject with the same trollish nature and attitude and little to show for any of this...or just jumping on the band wagon. Hard to tell with a name like Gurner...

How about this, of the total 18 posts here, 12 have been on this tread to critisize me, an at least surface knowledge of recent events at PG and a similar attitude with no actual work done on such things and an attitude that seems to be only directed towards me. Interestingly, the person who was most instrumental in all that, actually proposed an untested circuit for sale in the tutorial...

(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/127/pcbf.jpg)

Hmmm...so all the talk about having to have six individual coils turned into just a single coil remarkably similar to my own, with a different wire gauge and response. Then, all the talk of using pics for AGC and digital processing turned out to be a generic amp with a "Tillman" ripoff in the front end of it!!! When challenged about talking aobut the caracteristics of my own pickup/drivers in a thread exactly like this...he built one in a day, and reported that it didn't work...but he didn't find it "decent" enough....or words to that effect, not that it didn't in fact work!

Other than one attempt at humour with his wife's "flanger"....

What brings Gurner to this forum...

Ah...I need a 9v op amp circuit...ok...building an amp perhaps, there's no divulging there as to what Gurner is actually trying to build...

QuoteI'm not a designer, just a hobbyyist trying to grapple with a few issues!

well, that's most unlike the guy from PG, so perhaps not, his ego was far more evolved. Clearly he is not a designer and is grappling with a few issues, may as well use 12 of 18 posts having a go at someone who is...good work whoever you are...

QuoteFWIW,  I'm dabbling with a widget that is very sensitive to signal phase through the circuit, so your formula will be incredibly useful towards helping me kludge something better together.

Hmmm...seem to be seeing a trend here...not letting anyone know specifically what he is doing (which of course would always help in giving advice, all my posts on this forum related to quiries about sustainer applications made that clear, so that the person who was answering could give a decent advice back. But for some reason our Gurner needs to keep this all very hush, hush...I wonder why...

QuoteWhat I seek is a calculator where I can say "I want a 10 degree phase shift at 330Hz" & it tells me what values of capacitor & resistor I need for an allpass filter

Ah yes, and a few posts picking peoples brains about phase shift circuits and ways of calculating the things...ok...I'm seeing the picture, correct me if I'm wrong, I well might be...

You are looking for information to build an amp that has phase shift compensations. Now, what circuits do we see this so much "touted"...oh yes, all the commercial sustainer patents....want the mechanism, the floyd rose patent is pretty clear with even the values for caps and resistors to effect their compensation circuitry, why didn't you ask or read the first 10 pages of the thread where this was discussed at length with links????

Perhaps Gurner sees himself as a white knight, riding into sustainer territory with a blaze of all that psw and others has achieved is crap....I Have THE answer...seen it before if this is the case. Sure, great, like to see YOUR answer. But, likely it will not meet the many specified criteria I set for myself in regard to size and application and quite likely performance. If all you have read is the patents and made assumptions from them, at best, and unlikely, you might duplicate what they have done before you. Big deal, all this is a ripoff too!

I set out to make something different, sure, I read all those patents, and I worried about these aspects...till a very knowledgeable electronics guy involved here and at PG, and much respected (the late Lovekraft r.i.p.) suggested that I work towards making a driver that did not require the compensations circuitry for which you seek. Could it be, that I might actually have done that soon after? Could it be that my real time showing of what I was doing and the results I was getting proved that? My driver designs are after all, radically different from any that came before it...why equate what I have been doing and the results I get, with coils so big that they need to compensate for the "lead and lag" inherent in them.

You know that the KVB acoustic sustainers also would benefit from AGC and phase and resonance compensation...but then perhaps you might approach things by moving the transducer around to get it to set off different resonances or a more even response. Sounds like a plan, perhaps you might find a spot that will sustain and harmonic bloom exactly as you would like, if only on one note...but have a recording in mind where that is exactly the effect desired. I call that "decent". In fact, it is much as it has always been done...finding the right spot in a room to stand just so to get amp feedback for instance.

How about this very old studio technique that achieves the KVB effect with no add ons and a very powerful musical effect that has worked flawlessly for years and years...

As an example I'd point people towards the tune "Son Becomes Father" by the hellecasters. There is a very much sustained "sustainer" note in particular in this song. How did he acheive this...by taking the speaker grill off his amp then pushing his headstock at the required moment against the speaker baffle...instant controlled sustain at a studio volume! Exactly the same principle as the KVB without wires off the headstock, circuits (phase compensated or otherwise) and a beautiful sound. Play the whole tune as you wish, with no change of tone get exactly the right "impossible" held note for as long as you like....sounds decent to me....

So, why not get into all the "players" that have done this for years. How about those BOC guys....had to make a tape loop to do what they did on the famous 'don't fear the reaper' note...live now they apparently use an ebow. There are countless examples. Garry Moore's Live,Alive album...similar impossibly loing held note in "Parisienne Walkways"...did all teh sound checks and marked the floor to get that "impossible note" but...with the auditorium filled and the recording light on, that was no longer the place to stand and he had to do a dozen or so takes of that one note in teh show...just so they could edit it right for the record...true.

Now...my sustainers for me personally, sound like a really loud predictable infinte note...very organic, dynamic and responsive. It will bloom to harmonics and start o0ut that way, it can have the envelope manipulated to sound backwards if you like...it can be played clean or distorted...and it will do all of this at any volume, even through headphones and no amp at all for late night recording....

Now, people who seek the "decent" sustainer, possibly don't even know what they are shooting for...just that they must be able to do better than psw and his dinky simple amplifier ideas. (Of course these people generally rip off my driver designs which I have always maintained to be the "heart" of why it works)...so, if you make something that will produce an even non dynamic response at great effort and circuitry...will you take the criticism that the things sound lifeless...much as is sometimes said of the fernandes and sustainiac systems?

So...why am I now so circumspect about "revealing" circuit details. Well, I choose not to is the easy answer...for those who cant type or read or comprehend. Another is that I have no motivation anymore to feed trolls with such details. Another is that I did give a lot, and what I got back was from people who think they can do better, which of course I'm all for, but who define better by what exactly I am doing. That's not better, just a clash of egos...why feed into that. There are also an array of mis guided and ill informed opinion form people who have not even tried the most basic working systems then set about building on that say. Invariably they come up with something, often as above almost identical to my own, and then call it completely different...and we are not talking just one person who has done exactly that!

I give my current and evolving ideas and circuits out now, and next a few components have changed which are insignificant, a wire gauge is changed, or in some cases suggest it doesn't matter, but use my formula anyway...and suddenly it is their idea?!

I am not profiting from this, is Gurner now requesting I see him my circuit that he so maligns? Why would he want it?

Have I made these things for others...well, I helped member here "bancika" (creator of the DIY Layout creator pinned to the top of this forum) by sending him wire to build his version with the F/R and blocked coil (individual poles pickup conversion) and he has a tutorial on his website that people might want to check out. One of many that are floating about.

I made one for a custom USA guitar builder along with the internal electronics for a guitar made for a well known guitar celebrity...an offer I couldn't refuse. I ahve done a few myself of course and seen many others through to completion. Is Gurner asking for a circuit for some fabulous project aht would make me actually want to accommodate him...or is it more likely that he wants it to re-engineer what he can't come up for himself with all the detail given, perhaps to critcize and attack me further, or to describe it as not decent enough, or to show all my "secrets" for what they really are...who knows what motivates such people, there clearly seem to be a few from the UK in the last year. Whatever the reason, I have heard nothing that would interest me in supplying gurner with my circuit or coils or a system.

That's not to say I wouldn't, or haven't...but it would have to be a lot better offer than that!

...

In the meantime, more little vox pops...

QuoteBehind the torrents of text, repetitive pics & accompanying egotistical nonsense..... something doesn't add up.

Your ability to comprehend...what is so hard...

QuoteSimple, that circuit obviously works well enough for him, so there's no need for anything "better".

No...it will work in some applications, it is not the best, the mods to stabilize such LM386 circuits I have posted, the 100uF output cap mod, I've posted...but really, these things are largely from the LM386 data sheet, that RoG choose to delete out of their design.

The point is that the design of the driver, as posted at length above, are such that it does not NEED a lot of compensation fi any to actually "work". The reason that the commercial designs do, is the characteristics of the drivers they choose to use. They use dual coil designs of various types, I tend not to, others do. However, this is to reduce the effects of EMI...mine run efficiently a a lower power, not giving off as much EMI...plus, they are from 3mm to 1mm thick...that is a radically different physical design that in itself contributes to localize EMI effects away from the source pickup...

What exactly is your problem Gurner? Can't accept that sometimes, there is some elegance in simplicity.

Too much typing for you...well that's just intellectually bankrupt...try reading it. How about you come out with the project you are working on while telling me I am secretive and "something doesn't add up". What exactly are you implying? That me and all the people who have built this over the years successfully, we are all in some conspiracy against people like you?

No...I recomend a buffered power amp circuit...not ever have I endorsed nor ripped of RoG and I have made that abundantly clear. The F/R suggestion came from another person who never spoke to me about it, and he got express permission form RoG and consulted about it for that project...a sustainer. Don't put that on me...

You asked for a circuit that would work...with sufficiently high output HB say that would not need preamping, and a good coil of the right build and spec...yes, this kind of thing does "work". I gave you that, because you seemed incapable of finding it yourself!


...

If gurner has had enough of an answer, it is likely nothing I say will help him, perhaps a professional in such things are the best...

I am happy as always to try and support people who actually do want to build the kind of thing I have done, support them in their own endeavours, or cheer on as they put their own ideas into practice.

There is no need for there to be a "rail" core in the driver...individual poles have worked well in different configurations. You do ahve to watch the magnets are not too string, so avoid neodymium for instance. For an HB conversion, the simplest way is to do what Primal at PG did, and just wind the stock psw 0,2mm coil to the neck nearest slug coil of the pickup bobbin, and in much the same way Banika described from my advice, block up the lower portion of the coil leaving 3mm at the top...

I'm all for some "open competition, but this kind of nonsense will be answered...it really is ridiculous and unhelpful. Incredible assumption, hugely subjective opinions, no actual data or significant research, no apparent experience at all by admission, a curious obsession with me personally for some reason...largely insulting to me and by inference countless others who have made their own 'decent' sustainers.

I'd love to understand the motivation about this kind of thing, but as always, it seems, that some people see a band wagon, the sustainer bandwagon in this case, see the attention it seems to get, and see themselves at the driving wheel one day. They imagine me in that position, so they figure that toppling me is a good strategy, then coming up with something "better" or "definitive". May I suggest as always, that this is largely in your minds about my role in all this...but also, that if anyone can come up with a decent sustainaer, I will be one of the first to applaud them for it. It's tricker thatn it looks. Of course, it is a bit easier now with 7 years of collective effort to build from...so, I am surprised that Gurner hasn't built one yet.

For those who do seek such control and variety, I'd seek out Col's circuit with Forward Feed AGC and 4 modes with filters...that's a good one, still uses an LM386, but it would work with another I am sure for those allergic to the things. Does not sound anything like what I would want, big, complicated and need to lose the neck pickup...oh and did I mention that it doesn't sound anything like what I am after....though still praising the thing...see the difference?

Umm..... Perhaps I'm misreading all this, but from what I've understood so far is that most of the problems lie in the driver design/construction and most of that seems to be covered fairly well.

From what I can see, the arguments about the actual electronics side, and from what's been said, it's not hugely important, just as long as it sends enough current through at a decent voltage, without draining a 9V in a night.

I could be wrong here, but since this forum is called DIY stompboxes, as in Do-It-Yourself, I'd say that a fair number of people here are comfortable with designing a small 386 driver circuit. And those that don't generally know to ask how to adapt an existing design to fit into their own set of parameters.

As for breadboarding stuff, if you're doing any experimental work breadboarding is second nature, and it's been made clear that if you want a circuit, you're gonna have to experiment. If people need help with this, just ask.  ;)

If you're still unsure how to go about designing something more complex, go work on something simpler to build up your electronics chops and then come back. I think PSW is assuming that people have a certain level of skill when it comes to design work for this project, which is not unreasonable for round here, but does make it harder for the beginner.

BTW for those that don't know, it takes a damn long time to get a design from concept to production, particularly if you're working a day job. A mate asked me to build him a custom trem. It's taken almost a year from when we sat down and he showed me what he wanted to now; where I'm just about to actually populate the PCB.

Quote from: 01370022 on May 22, 2010, 05:10:14 AM

I could be wrong here, but since this forum is called DIY stompboxes, as in Do-It-Yourself, I'd say that a fair number of people here are comfortable with designing a small 386 driver circuit. And those that don't generally know to ask how to adapt an existing design to fit into their own set of parameters.
.

No, imho I don't think you're wrong at all - (& BTW I'm very comfortable with DIY circuits. I certainly don't need 'spoonfeeding'-  but a lot of folks do need spoonfeeding - maybe not here but on other related forums) ....but it should be obvious to the trained eye on here that psw's recommended ROG circuit is not going to be particularly suitable for a sustainer - yes, it'll yield sustain, because at the end of the day, all the driver coil needs is an AC current driven through it at the source signal frequency (and the ROG circuit will obviously do that).

No, my surprise is that he hasn't come forward with good DIY sustainer circuit  - which definitely needs compression to tame the guitar's chunky dynamic range thereby getting the correct amount of drive into the driver coil ...too much drive & the string will vibrate wildly, too little & the string will fade - it's therefore a delicate balance ....the basic [crayon] 'my first circuit' [/crayon]  ROG variant he has recommended has no auto signal level/compensation built in whatsoever, which means the guitarist is going to have to ride that sustainer level pot constantly! (to the point of it sending him potty  >:( )

It was just an observation that's all - ie a cursory glance over on Project Guitar shows that psw is someone that monopolizes all DIY sustainer threads - if that's the best DIY sustainer circuit he's come up with after all these years, then most are going to more than a little disappointed when they build it    ....I suspect deep down he knows this - the unnecessarily egotistical pic laden long replies have more than a hint of "he who doth protest too much"

Ok enough said from me ... as I'm note sure the forum server has sufficient RAM/Disk space left for the inevitable response.  ;D

double post (wrong button clicked!)

QuoteI'm not a designer, just a hobbyyist trying to grapple with a few issues!

QuoteFWIW,  I'm dabbling with a widget that is very sensitive to signal phase through the circuit, so your formula will be incredibly useful towards helping me kludge something better together.

Could it be Gurner that you "SECRET" widget that you joined her to "kludge together" is in fact a sustainer circuit and you just don't want to say. Those questions and hijacking this thread to attack my work and the sustainer thread seems to be your only interest.

You seem to ahve seen my work, superficially read a few patents and "assumed" wrongly that mine are the same as theirs and so would require the same circuitry to make them work "decently".

However, you would be wrong on many fronts. The circuit only needs to compensate for specific drivers. Mine are completely different in that they are designed to work in a manner that does not require compensation to "work" decently. In order to create a circuit even if it requires compensation, would require you to build a driver and know it's qualities...resonance, inductance, capacitance, resistance....and even then, such a design would need to be created and tested in the real world...and even then it would need to be peer reviewed to ensure that this vital component actually does perform advantageously against the designs me and dozens of others have created and shown to work...

But, you apparently have skipped the heart of any system, spent most of the time calling me black while your kettle over boils pursuing your own agenda that itself is "secret"...

I have shown many circuits, I have even shown pics which you say are repetitive...does that mean you have been a part of the sustainer project? Or, is there some reason you have not already? Not that you have to, I get emails regularly from people who successfully make their own from the information I provided to thank me for their success.

QuoteNo, imho I don't think you're wrong at all - (& BTW I'm very comfortable with DIY circuits. I certainly don't need 'spoonfeeding'-  but a lot of folks do need spoonfeeding - maybe not here but on other related forums) ....but it should be obvious to the trained eye on here that psw's recommended ROG circuit is not going to be particularly suitable for a sustainer - yes, it'll yield sustain, because at the end of the day, all the driver coil needs is an AC current driven through it at the source signal frequency (and the ROG circuit will obviously do that).

You apparently do need spoonfeeding...you could not derive an LM386 circuit for yourself, so I gave you one...now you say I am recommending one, and ripping of RoG in the process...

This is the oppisite of what I ahve been saying, again showing how intellectually bankrupt your argument...I did not recommend nor ever recommended any RoG design specifically, it was one of the options. The Fetzer/Ruby design came up in a tutorial without any consultation with me many years ago and with the permission of RoG. The author of that tutorial and that proposal that caught on back then was GalagaMike, but I don't think that he did wrong there, what he did do wrong in his tutorial was go it alone, and not follow the design. He used slightly thicker wire and two neodymium on the ends of the rail core which itself was stainless steel...these factors were instrumental in the poor response he achieved which could have been fixed before he created a tutorial on the subject based on my design.

The rest is history in regards to the RoG connection...please withdraw such comments and suggesting them again...

I HAVE NOT recommended any circuit to anyone...this was your original argument. I don't recommend ROG or the many of my own, or my present "secret" circuit either...there is NO perfect circuit, and never will be...what part of this do you not understand?

QuoteNo, my surprise is that he hasn't come forward with good DIY sustainer circuit  - which definitely needs compression to tame the guitar's chunky dynamic range thereby getting the correct amount of drive into the driver coil ...too much drive & the string will vibrate wildly, too little & the string will fade - it's therefore a delicate balance ....the basic [crayon] 'my first circuit' [/crayon]  ROG variant he has recommended has no auto signal level/compensation built in whatsoever, which means the guitarist is going to have to ride that sustainer level pot constantly! (to the point of it sending him potty  Angry )

No...you again misunderstand, and have in fact taken the phrase "ride that sustainer level pot constantly" almost directly from similar attacking posts from PG...or is that your own work.

What happened to your phase concerns...suddenly you are an expert in sustainers...what work have you done, where are your successes and failures and circuit designs along the way?

Have you even heard my guitar and others from this project?

In any system there are limitations...these limitations can become their own AGC. The driver design and the limited power possible from the small circuits is itself an AGC. This is why I resist the temptation or apparent necessity that many feel to go with more power...this is not required with an efficient coil...less power is what people who know what they are doing are and have been aiming for.

SO...you fail to see that any system, the circuit, the driver...and in fact the physical potential for the string to vibrate on the instrument...is LIMITED" Such limitations are AGC.

ok...besides that...you assume apparently that I don't personally have or have used AGC in some of my designs. Again, you would know this to be false. Me and many others have, even more so in early designs when I used a quite large 4 knob limiter compressor built for the project. However, this was found to be unnecessary as I worked toward driver designs that would not require such control...to get the response I was after.

I have not gone potty riding a drive control...you just have no experience in these things at all, working from a position that is false, that there is a one size fits all circuit...seem to be "secretly" designing a circuit yourself that will be "better" without doing the vital work on the drivers that would be necessary to work out what it is you need to compensate for...and I will be pretty pissed if you take that part of the project and call it your own while promoting your circuit as THE ONE when it could work with just about anything.

What you are suggesting Gurner is patently untrue and based on no evidence what so ever!

In fact, what I use now is secret, that's my prerogative though I had hoped to discuss it, I am reticent to discuss it openly with the likes of you. It has been independently tested and the design made clear to people that do matter, so I am comfortable in that direction, and had plans of course to develop the thing further. There is no obligation at all for me to share every detail of what I do with you or anyone else frankly...and hardly anyone else has been as open as me, particularly about circuits...in particular your allies who blatantly have a commercial interest and have since dropped the AGC and other ambitions (hex coils) for the general driver design and implementations I developed (ironically enough, there are plenty of alternatives).

For one, may latest circuit has a completely different "drive" control than you imagine...this is in fact the "secret" that I am protecting. "Riding it" would not help or work as you suggest. So, in the clips available to you of what this guitar sounds like, or others with this design, such a technique would not in fact help. The "drive control" actually works on the effect as much as intensity. The reality of these things and the characteristics of my extremely open design itself puts limits on the system. The problems some have encountered stem in part from say, giving the system virtually unlimited power or perhaps twice or far more the amps that I use.

I have in fact, and only recently practically described the circuit I use, at least in operation, so that anyone who could design something like this, could pretty much work it out. People obsessed as you could just as easily look into the archive just before it appeared...and see me trying to discuss a couple of circuits, some from this site that were developing at the time, that I was interested in. You could perhaps infer that perhaps, given my description, that I took this interest further on my own since things were deteriorating into this kind of crap arguments and trying to cajole me into giving you all the details you want...when you clearly have made up your own mind, based on no experience at all...that what you have in mind (that you stole from the patents but don't apply to my driver specs) is 'necessary" and with the assumption that you know better and can in fact dictate what a "decent" sustainer sounds like.

But then, everything you have done is "secret" isn't it? Even as you complain that "peter won't give me it"...wha wha...come on Gurner.

If you really wanted to make such a thing, or even comment, the least you could do is spend a couple of hours actually making one to the design and seeing if it works.

The last post now seems to concede that it does in fact sustain the strings of a guitar...but that it will do so too much...

The tail end as usual deteriorates to personal abuse about posts he clearly has not read, for the purposes that if i "protest to much' this somehow proves the argument. Could it be in fact that I in fact have a bit of experience in these things, made a fair few, had them independently verified, encouraged dozens of people to do the same or develop things still further, and provided the forum for it at PG?

Unlike you, I use my real name, my location is well known, I can be contacted and do not seek at this point in time to make money off of these things that people like yourself may well hold fantasies of...Your posting pattern and attitude is clearly just trollish. Perhaps you have been asked not to post anymore at PG...or perhaps you know that wouldn't be advisable wiothout any work to speak of to base your assertions.

Regardless...

All I have suggested is that the more the merrier, there is no one kind of circuit nor response that people desire from this technology...that's why there is no one circuit recommended and certainly not from me. A huge amount depends on the characteristics of the driver coil, I can only vouch that my driver design will work with simple circuits, I have provided such circuits and the mods that are required to get the kind of response that I achieve on a range of guitars. If you have a good original idea for AGC or have built a driver like the commercial systems that require compenstation, if you are happy in fact with the commercial systems state of teh art...then why not just copy the AGC pahse corrected schematics directly from the patents themselves?

However, if you come up with something, that's just great Gurner, more power to you. That's what "the project" is and always was about. As for my predominance...you think it should be you? I had an idea back in 2003, I started a post like anyone else...it ran for years...till it was closed down as being no longer functional after a sustained campaign of ill informed mis information from someone exactly like yourself in attitude and incapacity to understand. You are not the first, not the last. What is characteristic is that you ahve nothing to show for it, while I have much and have shared a good portion of that, surely enough for people to find there own best solution...and certainly enough to make what many have considered a decent sustainer from...

So...how about it gurner...introduce yourself and your 'secret widget' that you joined this forum for...or was it just to hijack this thread for your own agenda and you are more concerned about flanger controls in your head?

@psw

have you got a kit of the sustainer..? to sell?..

if so does it sustain on the b and e strings, especially above the 12th fret..on a 24 fret guitar...
as i ve read that it can be a bit weak  on them..

does it matter what gauge of strings..? i use 9's...

i'd love to have this on my ibanez rg470... or even on a knockabout old guitar...

cheers man...rob

PSW: Your posts are way too long to read.

Gurner: You need to take the pissing contest offline to email or PM.

Seriously guys, give the forum a break...  :icon_neutral:

@ Gurner: you seem to have missed these topics: http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=30449.0   http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=34264.0   http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=35062.0   http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=49595.0  http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=49848.0   http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=57817.0   http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=60476.0   http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=70431.0   http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=83814.0

Quote from: deadastronaut on May 22, 2010, 12:42:06 PM
@psw

have you got a kit of the sustainer..? to sell?..

if so does it sustain on the b and e strings, especially above the 12th fret..on a 24 fret guitar...
as i ve read that it can be a bit weak  on them..

does it matter what gauge of strings..? i use 9's...

i'd love to have this on my ibanez rg470... or even on a knockabout old guitar...

cheers man...rob

@deadastronaut

No...not at this time nor in any near future.

Yes, harmonics and infinite sustain on all strings across the guitar

Yes, gauge does matter...see the sustainiac et al sites. Mine uses 10's which is generally the recommended gauge of the commercial units too. However, my more recent guitar could drive 9's...so there are a few if's there. It's to do with the amount of metal in the strings for the driver to work on. I can't control the quality of the work of others or the qualities of the guitars put on, nor troubleshoot things from across the world (another reason I've not 'sold' stuff except for special projects)

Hence, yes I suppose any sustain with 9's on them may be "a bit weak", it is the nature of the way the sustainers work, they require some metal to work on.

In an RG or similar shredder guitar, you have no room between teh neck and the pickup..that means the neck pickup will have to be taken out and replaced with something, or wood work, or several other considerations...where will the battery and circuit fit in such tight control cavities? I suppose I am assuming that if you need me to supply a 'kit' then you may well need assistance in thee other areas and the installation an switching that can get quite involved?

Also, I wouldn't want to give the Gurners of this world any ammunition that I was ripping people off by supplying a circuit at cost as was the original plan. They are built by had on vero..so you know, it takes time that I wont recoup or people would not be prepared to pay in small numbers I would build the things. Every time I have it has cost me money, so I do it only where there is a project of sufficient mutual interest. I'm sorry, but this is not one of those projects, but it can be done, perhaps you know someone who can work on it with you.

...

@DougH

Fair comment...in part. There is no compulsion to read my posts or any particular thread, once it comes down to this stage, it's a pointless exercise. One person sticks to hammering home mis-information and personal asides, the other defends himself as best he cans...none is particularly useful information...but Gurner has not sought that from me.

However, it would appear clear that as many times before, and with a similar approach, Gurner joined this month to explore the sustainer thing...or so it seems, he refuses to confirm or deny, and is just spreading the same kind of crap that was at PG again over here. I contributed because I was contacted to help Benfox and a couple of others here with making MY design for the thing...I did not expect yet another Gurner to pile on 12+ posts of pointlessness onto someone elses thread attacking me! He came here, well, he doesn't say, but most of the posts have been directed towards me and he has a more than passing obsession with PG so perhaps he has been banned from that forum, who knows.

The reality at PG has always been the same pattern. Guy thinks he can do better, keeps it to himself, then hijacks every thread on the subject, then tries to pass himself off as an expert (without ever building one) and denigrating the remarkable work done before (and targeting me as the head of this dynasty) only after much fuss, to "re-invent" my own public design and call it their own. Suggesting..."well, it's the circuit i just use your driver design"...

The length of my reply in no way should suggest anything about it's content.

I'd love to give the forum a break...my purpose here was to help a couple of people who sought to make the project...in part I suspect because people like Gurner made the sustainer work non-functional at PG. I don't know who Gurner is, but I know his 'Type', my response is to refute personal attacks or against the project and it's work to date and continuing. I more than welcome someone coming along and building their own sustainer, especially if it surpasses my own...there are many people who have already done that. So you know, make one but why stoop to just following me around with this nonsense...12+ out of 18 threads here, and the rest of the 6 posts 'hiding' the nature of the 'widget' he seeks to improve...but no actual work on improving the things, and too secretive to ask the people he wants help from in the context of his plans.

Free speech and right of reply...not compulsory or interesting reading. Answering accusations of fraud effectively, is a nesesity and as far as I know, not restricted by word count.

@TELEFUNKON

I'm sure Gurner could use some help using the search button. I am hardly the first, there were people here that did some stuff before or separately from me. Of course the patents go back the 1890's, so with over 100 years of sustainers, we still don't "have it right' or have one on every guitar. Got to wonder why...perhaps they are not the greatest thing since sliced bread, perhaps it is different things to different people...

But oh so young...2005 I see and using color and 40 pages of sustainer thread. And asking the same questions that Gurner is asking others about with the one big difference (besides using my real name)...I said that I was asking these questions because I was working on a sustainer!

Gurner sees the huge subscription to the sustainer stuff and sees a "market" I presume and seeks to exploit people like Ron, I don't...even though when I built my last version, I have 12 more just sitting here as I had to buy the SMD's in packs of a dozen! And, a machine to build wafer coils...oh well...

...

@Gurner

If there is something you wish to discuss or clarify with me, you know who I am and how to reach me. If you are working on a sustainer, I can give you more details than were made public on a number of things. It's interesting that the KVB thing came up recently, cause I did quite a bit on these kinds of things and researched others attempts but never reported on that. I also have worked extensively on hex drivers as another example. Piezo bridges, multiple tuning bridges, all kinds of things I have had an interest in...bult a few guitars as well...and actually play the guitar a lot with a degree in music that included the physics of sound and vibration of strings and such. It would appear that you are working on much as I was looking for in that post in 2005 that maggotbrain kindly dug up for you.

These things really should show you the avenues I have explored. I give my time and all these words freely, but I wouldn't need so many if I was asked a question reasonably and without agendas that I have seen so often over the years, and that seem to be characteristically directed towards me personally, though many have and continue to be involved.

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Really, I find these things a trial. This is somehow peculiar to the sustainer stuff. If  one were to design a stomp box, say a distortion...You'd just go out and make something, and present why you like it, perhaps why you find it a superior sound...perhaps you make a box that can easily switch between chips and diode configurations that makes it more flexible or something. You wouldn't go about before doing anything at all, asking how to achieve these aims without describing what it is that you are trying to do. You wouldn't start out by attacking everyone else's distortion box without ever building or hearing the things and making derogatory statements about it's "decency"...then pick someone that has successfully built and designed such things for the last 8 years and more, and accusing them of not making a decent product even though clearly a lot of people are happy with the thing (lots of designers don't give out their details, hence reverse engineering, particularly with sustainer circuits)...all before they come up with anything at all.

The usual approach surely is to do a survey of what is available, how they work, and particularly how they sound...perhaps build a few successfully...then make the judgment call...hmmm, that's not quite what I am looking for...then set out to build your own version or innovation...then present your own, perhaps then suggesting that you find it a better sound...and seeing what others think about should they choose to build the thing. That's all I ever did, but it has only been in the last year or so that these kinds of people have really come out...because they are attracted by the popularity of the thread, which I did not set out to create.

Really, the sustainer is pretty old news, even the DIY stuff. There is so much more to explore, there are so many more worth while things to develop should one have the know how and the fortitude to pursue them. There is more than enough information on the things, things that have worked of mine and many others, so many variations on a similar theme. Somehow I should have come up with the "perfect" circuit or be the one to dictate what people should use, but I do not see it that way. I was fascinated by the possibilities and the problems, and I set out to solve them for myself. Up till this point, I believe that I have in many ways. I am asked regularly if I can do these things for others, but I live on the other side of the world than most and now on a tiny island only 8kms wide!

The reality is that I actually play guitar and have done for over 35 years, that's the core of things, and the sustainer is just an effect to put on it...one that I rarely actually use anymore even though built into my main guitar and working perfectly.

I am building a new guitar right now in fact, and though just done an extensive electronics thing on it and intended to be my main guitar for the new music project I have embarked on, there will not be a sustainer coming anywhere near the thing. I be if I looked around Aron's site though i might come up with a few projects that I might like to try that would be useful...but you can be sure that when I ask about it, I will be up front about what I am doing and thinking of using it for, and that I will be in full acknowledgment of the work that was put into it but the people that came up with such ideas and solutions before I got tinkering with it.

Yep...if Gurner whats to piss on me privately he knows where to call...plus, if he is an ex-PG'er, he has known this all along.

Otherwise, start your own thread Gurner, gurner's sustainer thread...and you know...actually build something. Don't knock my work till you've tried it and even then, present yours as an improvement or an innovation or something completely different. Don't hijack innocent threads of others and hide behind pseudonyms, don't waste time pissing on me... just do the work, others will decide if it's any good, as they should...and before long some of them will make something even "better"...that's the way of things.

Ok...for those who have not even heard what my device sounds like (though they have always been available from links on the 'sustainer sounds thread, along with others for comparison) I uploaded 3 tunes of the very first 'sustainer strat' which featured the first pickup/driver combo, the very one featured in the how to make a driver pictorial of which this thread was originally about...

There is no 'secret' as to the circuitry used in this, it used the CHAmp LM386 data sheet kit modified with a 100uF output cap for the response I personally like and my driver design (0.2mm wire on a 3mm deep coil wound to 8 ohms) adn for a preamp the PRECHAmp, modified (as per the instructions with it) to provide a bit more gain. This guitar is a cheap strat copy with cheap single coil pickups, exactly as the one modified for the driver in the pictorial...ceramic magnets below slug poles. I used to think that extra gain was necessary, on this guitar and pickups perhaps it was a bit, but in more recent times I have gone for far less power in the preamp stage.

So, if you follow this link...

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=869409 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=869409)

that I was reminded of by looking back at the posts TELEFUNKON provided...

I'd point interested parties to the present sustainer demo...actually a demo of the guitar I built that featured it...Blueteleful1 parts 1 & 2

This was built in 2008 and features "the circuit" that seems to bother Gurner and his ilk so much. As I say, I was developing it and it features a different kind of drive control, the driver is very much like a newer version of the original, the core was even cut from the same piece of ordinary hardware steel...the ceramic magnets from the $2 shop in the craft section. So, pretty much the same tecnology as the original...

One should notice that this was improvised against a drum loop...the bass was overdubed later...in one take, with one guitar...and no effects directly into the BR600 with a little echo to give it ambience perhaps. So, recorded silently through headphones at about 1am in the morning and with a fairly flat battery as I recall.

Blueteleful1 pt 1 http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6852773 (http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6852773)
Blueteleful1 pt 2 http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6881582 (http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6881582)

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For comparison...the original version from 2004. The exact driver/pickup in the pictorial and a no frills preamp/LM386 circuit...no AGC, no phase compensation, no trickery or magic, no secrecy behind it...very much as I have suggested all along...4x the size of my present devices...

The tracks Beckistan, Airie and The Yearning...just three of quite a few posted over the years and dating back to 2003-4.

These were recorded pretty primitively with a korg digital effects unit plugged directly into the soundcard of the computer...hence the recording quality.

Beckistan http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9178457 (http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9178457)

This shows the range of the thing and honestly how it worked. Yes, this first version was not that "controlled" but still musically useful. With the amount of tremolo use, and the position of the controls at the back of the guitar, hardly likely or sounds like I was "riding" the intensity control. But this was a first prototype on a very cheap guitar...and in fact the first thing played on it pretty much. The first phrase is the modified neck pickup, the second the bridge pickup, and thereafter you can clearly hear the sustainer on and switching to harmonic mode.

Ok...from the same "session" pretty much and same guitar...

The yearning http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9178466 (http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9178466)

A fairly loud recording I notice, so perhaps turn it down. Some kind of flutey sounds and a lot of ambient drones...gives an idea of the polyphonic response I guess. All sustainers tend to have the bass strings 'win out' over the higher strings, yet even with this first prototype you can see that there is no problem playing multiple chords and getting some polyphonic sustain.

Airie http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9178483 (http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9178483)

Same set up...I suppose I was demoing the 'auto picking' kind of thing...looks like I was letting the sustainer activate the notes. Super clean sound and the use of sustaining polyphonic notes

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It's been interesting to hear that again after all those years...

So, that's what it sounds like and pretty much what I always claimed was possible with a basic amp circuit and suitable driver.

I could have cheated of course, though it is obvious that I didn't and never had. I could have for instance just dialed in a compressor on the stompbox I used to link to the computer. Not on the circuit to the driver, but just on the guitar and normal. This of course would have brought up the softer notes and toned down the louder ones and got the coveted "even tone" that Gurner and others seem to desire and more of a fernandes like sound perhaps.

But of course, back then as now, I actually wanted to create a more dynamic expressive device. I didn't want the thing I was after to sound "even" and "sterile" and "bland" and all the things that many sustainers are criticized for...I wanted the capacity for a wide dynamic range and with it expressiveness. Now, to do that takes a little more "work" by the player, but that is always the way...or a little cheating with a compressor, distortion or a range of other ways you could tone the thing down if that's the desired effect.

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So, I have made these available to hopefully end any controversy about my work, the project in general or what is capable even with the most basic of circuits, not trickery or masking distortion. Now others have submitted similar clips, some have got a lot of AGC and such on them, they were going for a different kind of sound and got it...simply though, I was looking for dynamic range, they weren't.

Now, in the more "modern circuit", what is the difference really...well., perhaps there is a little more control and more drive on all strings, less noise, and a more varied drive control...but it is pretty much the same thing don't you think? Because, that is the direction I chose to follow. Now I could just as easily have gone down the route of "taming" the thing as Gurner and others and the commercial units have gone...but I really think that the whole dynamic range should be in the hands of the musician if they choose that, and this will get it there.

As far as 'phase compensation', my driver design does not need it. Gurner might have a radically different driver in mind, this is by far the biggest "battle" or he may simply be banking on rehashing one of my many designs or others, or copying those of the patents...who knows, he seems rather cagey about his involvement completely...hardly the most honest of characters it would seem.

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However, with my devices, they can be "tamed" with signal processing. The huge dynamic range would benefit in recording and in a live situation with some limiting on the actual instrument (say with a compressor) to help it sit in the mix better and not peak out as much...a very easy and routine way of dealing with such things, especially instruments like say a sax that also has a wide dynamic range at their disposal.

I've never heard a sax player complain about the dynamic range of their instrument or try and tame it, but I dare say there are a few recording engineers who do it to them. Still, if that is the direction someone wants to take things, it really is no big deal, add a compressor in the drive chain or just simply on the guitar itself. My demos were to show honestly what it sounded like naked. Any distortion pedal btw will automatically squash things down and provide are ridiculously fast response to sustain and harmonics and 'auto-picking' features of the device...as will just playing it in a room with a real amp, not through headphones at the dead of night.

The new circuit is an improvement...about an inch square (4x smaller that the commercial units and far smaller than the originals circuit), cleaner, more range of effect, better drive control, and better drive across the string sets...but then that was after 4 years of tinkering later and several different circuits and a completely different guitar. It is however, remarkably similar to the original in design and concept.

The reality then, in complete contradiction to Gurner's and others accusations is that it does in fact work. In fact, it works due to a driver design without AGC and Phase correction, no secrecy or trickery. And these clips have been continuously available with an open invitation to provide any further evidence, since 2004!

Now, I think I know why this is. I think, like I did early on, look too hard at the patents and assume from that that what they found necessary with their drivers and response characteristics, that I must need that too. But, Lovekraft encouraged me to work on driver that could work designs that would work on the range of the guitar without those requirements. This is the "secret" if there is one to what I have been doing, and radically different from that approach. In fact, it is far more like an eBow. Anyone looking at making such devices and done a bit of work must have come across the ebow and it's elegant simplicity (LM386 circuit as it happens) and wondered why the same could not be constructed for all six strings in a "sustainer" format...well it can, and that's exactly what I have offered up to anyone.

Like the Ebow then, there is a wide dynamic range of effect. With an ebow you can control the dynamic range by moving the thing nearer to the pickup, with mine, you control it by how hard you pick the strings and such. But, like the ebow, you can tame it with effects. Mine has the benefit of not interfering with the picking hand and being able to play multiple strings and chords, the ebow can't.

But I admit that my simple things do not sound like the fernandes or sustainiac or floyd or micheal brook (who these guys stole it from anyway) or any of the others...because I designed them for me with a whole other set of criteria in addition to the "performance" aspects.

These criteria are often completely ignored in criticizing me or the way my sustainers sound and are constructed.

These include very small flexible units that do not interfere with the guitar without the sustainer. The guitar works as normal, it will work without a battery, the sustainer only uses power when actually on, a range of control options, extremely small cheap circuits with easily available components, no requirement for extensive modification of the host instrument. The tele's driver sticks on with double sided tape, others are completely invisible under the cover of the neck pickup and add no magnetic energy to the string or pickup operation.

These things are extremely important to consider in judging what I have done compared to what is currently available. Professionally done, my present circuit say in SMD would be smaller than the back of a normal pot for goodness sake...have you seen the size of the commercial units? These are massive achievements in the technology and achieved years ago.

So...the biggest complaint seems to be that "it can't be decent" because it is so simple. Well...the ebow is simpler and a beautiful elegant design that has not been surpassed. I suggest that those that have not done or heard the thing, can't really comment.

But, the point of the "sustainer project" all those hundreds of pages and thousands of contributions from many was to encourage others to have a go themselves and take this technology further in directions they wanted to. I offered up the most basic working model as a template, quite freely, for people to get started with. If a more 'even response' is what is wanted...go for it!

One guy famously wanted the string to settle into a 'sine wave' pattern in sustain as he felt this was the 'natural' sound of the guitar once the string had been plucked. That's nice, go for it. However, it is not what I was seeking from the thing...the end result of his contribution was to have the thread closed in a hail of personal abuse towards me (and likewise defensive post from me in return)...the result of all this apparently was something exactly like my prototype with a different chip and the tillman stuck to the front of it....and claiming it as entirely his own work.

I am reminded in looking back at those posts of some of the other Gurners that pop up...one from this forum suggested my hex drivers were a hoax. He claimed that I was suggesting the 5 LED lights in the things that indicated it was on was what I suggested drove the strings...nothing would convince him and abusive PM's ensued. Similarly this nugget from 2005...

Quoteman im geting mad with your talking what the hell is your problem? stop anoying me i have notho«ing to do with your paranoia  tomorow i will post here a video demosntrating the sound of your f** sustainer its nothing special to build and if contoinue to anoy me i will put here the plans of your "NOT SPECIAL" DRIVERS I WILL BUILD TONIGHT A SISTEM JUST LIKE YOUR!!!!!!!!!!!! SO DON´T MESS WITH ME AGAIN I EXPLAINED YOU A FEW TIMES I DONT NEED YOUR FAKE PROIJECT FOR NOTHING YOU DIDN´GET NOTHING NEW TO ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JESUS WHAT A PARANOIC GUY!!!

perhaps people can see why I am a little defensive and the kind of thing I have had to put up with years now. Gurner is small fry, but one of many. The main characteristic is that he is deceptive in his agenda, has nothing to show for it and no first hand experience, perhaps not even read the material or avail himself of the sound clips and other evidence...and goes straight into attacking and belittling me and putting words into my mouth.

I am not recommending any circuit, not mine, not RoG, not the old Jaycar and other kits...and I never have. I do recommend a particular driver design of mine as being easy to make (though clearly some can't get that right and dont pot with wood glue and such) and has been proven for years to work with simple circuits without phase compensation or AGC...it's a place to start. And to back it up, I have shown exactly what the results should sound like. Where exactly is the problem and the need to personally attack me or my work?

Quote from: psw on May 22, 2010, 10:53:08 PMWhere exactly is the problem and the need to personally attack me or my work?

Word. This guy is clearly loquacious, but he doesn't owe anybody anything. He has put lots of words, and some info (:icon_wink:) out there for (as far I can tell) free. I agree it might be tough to follow because of the length and because sometimes some of us really do want to be spoonfed (myself included), but you can't get mad at somebody or give him crap if he's not forthcoming with the info you want, or because he says it in a way that you have a hard time following.

I think it would be best if all involved killed the personal attacks. This is not one of those forums where we do that kind of stuff. We are friendly and helpful here. Don't bring this place down to the standard of other music-related fora.

Thanks Taylor...

I am just trying to point out that while I have been involved for many years in this project, I have been the subject of such "attacks" routinely for almost as long, yes, even here. This Guy...(I have a name by the way)...but Gurner, joined on April 30th and by far the majority of his posts have been directed towards me, the others obsess about a "secret widget" that is clearly or most likely 'sustainer related'. I'm just pointing out the likely motivation for the behaviour and even being in this forum...and trying to repair the damage such people cause.

This "Guy" (I really don't know his real identity) has the ability to contact me directly, I have encouraged him to do so.

My appearance here was because I was notified by the forum that an old topic of mine, cited by TELEFUNKON was reactivated by an interested member. I did not expect to be stalked on this forum, or abused in this manner, but then, I suppose there are trolls in any forum.

If anyone does need help with this or would like to contact me directly...they know how to do that.

As for the length of posts, if anyone read them, they would be able to see that there are points to them...if anyone would have bothered listening to the clips dating back to 2004 that were always available, they would know exactly what to expect from this kind of device. I posted them again for those who may need them...and because it has also been suggested that I am misleading impressionable people about what my design can do with a basic circuit.

I have been incredibly open about that...some people just fail to believe it cause they think they know "better". Well, I encourage it, go and make a sustainer, design your own driver (try not just to duplicate mine without due credit if you don't mind) and build that better circuit...I'd love to hear it. In fact, there is a real opportunity here as there always has been, for someone to develop a basic "standard" circuit for the thing. I obviously have my ideas and put them into action...they certainly have nothing at all to do with RoG or any similarity, in fact I am known to be critical of this design since it was proposed and offered my on mods to get it more up to the task.

My apologies to the OP who had his thread hijacked and to others who are interested. I will endeavor to continue to help those who are sincere in their wishes to build these things or just explore the concepts further personally....and I will I am afraid continue to defend myself against such trolls who have their own 'agenda'...and use as many words as I deem necessary. If this forum has a problem with the behavior of such people, then they should speak to them accordingly.

It's unfortunate that this forum is not more controlled on this subject...perhaps this is not a place for the sustainer to be discussed at all, especially if it is prone to anyone joining and behaving in this way less than a month after joining. Since most of these threads are seeking to copy the ideas that I presented, I figured that they at least may have wished to speak to the creator of the thing. I also would have thought that this forum would welcome a member of many years contributing in an area which he has worked on for years, and in fact created...but perhaps not.

But, I appreciate that people need help, I say an amplifier, he says give me one, I give him one, and he says I am recommending one and further, ripping off RoG even though I have made it clear that this was not a recommendation but in fact "a" potential circuit. If he wants a purpose built AGC (not phase corrected) circuit with 4 modes...do a bit more research...there is a great one in the sustainer thread from member col...not that I am recommending that either.

More than half of the sustainer threads many pages are in fact about spoon feeding people, often very young, towards success in this project...now it's a matter of scorn...the project was largely successful from my point of view in 2004...that's a long time ago...there have been plenty of comers since, take it up with them why little progress has been made on my work back then. Unfortunately for me, my name i9s on it, so I cop the falck...and the fact of the matter here, is that it has spread to this forum.

my names pete btw...but you know...guy would do...

 :) No offense intended by "guy", Pete.

I'd like to build a bass with a sustainer-per-string. Never could get my Sustainiac to sustain my bass's lowest string at all.

I'm not that great with analog tech, but I've become decent at digital processing, so I may go that route to get the lowest notes to sustain at their fundamental frequencies. Having compression and filtering tuned for each string may be the ideal way to get good performance in this case. It's strange, because my ebow works ok on the lowest string. Don't know why the Sustainiac can't work as well as the much simpler Ebow circuit...

You are lucky to have a bass sustainiac...do they still make those things?

I got a fabulous demo disc of the sustainiac on a floppy record in old guitar player mags when they first came out, including the bass and it sounded fantastic...never seen a demo like that since...and of course you hardly ever here them

The bass is a good candidate for these things. I have played with the idea a bit, generally the bass strings are easier to drive...lower frequencies and a lot more metal in those strings. Just testing the guitar version of mine on it though did produce a lot of harmonics.

The frettless that I use has a P-bass split pickup and this tended to harmonic one set of 2 strings, and the fundamental the other.

Last time I tried working on a bass, I used independent drivers for each string righ on the bridge...the scale and pickup spacing tends to mean there is a lot of space to work with...and of course, generally a lot of space between the top and the stings generally. Perfect candidate for a simple surface mounted driver, and if a typical bass, no need for bypassing, so perhaps a small stick on box with the circuit and battery in it to make it removable. So, I guess a mounted ebow...

But these things need development...if you imagine playing a bass through a little LM386 amp with a speaker, those lowest strings are going to struggle. At least you would need a big output cap (the opposite of my 100uF for my guitars...perhaps 470uF or even higher)

I ahve not spent a lot of time on it, because when it came down to it, and not being a bass player as such, I wondered whether I would have a use for it and not knowing what others might want either.

There are a lot of people who are interested in a 7 string version too...apparently they are not available by anyone anymore.

You got to hand it to the eBow, it is an elegantly simple device that no one has really bettered in concept or design. I tried my hand at building one as have others here with some success...but it is hard to replicate the utility of the real thing!

So...not sure that I personally have a music vision for such things, I am aware that there are a few bass players who manage to play with multiple ebows...so there must be something! For me, the musical 'vision' or at least usefulness is paramount.

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Sorry Taylor, didn't mean to take offense at you, it is just all too often and I have had to put up with a year of this nonsense, my patience is at an end with such people. The irony is that they have the idea that of course it will work...but the driver is such an important part, they take for granted the time and expense put into arriving at something so apparently simple and freely available. It simply is not 'any coil', you can get some sustain with some designs, it is not the only design even of mine, but this one is designed not to need the compensation circuits the commercial systems do and is radically different in design and in implementation.

I don't own a patent on the thing, but I do own the public rights to it...it is now 'prior art' and all I seek is acknowledgment if it is used and it not be used for personal commercial gain. There are many that clearly have that in mind. This is of course why I don't personally use anyone else's circuit designs but my own...and in the current climate of me being ripped off...if I were to give away my actual design or put a recommendation on anything, some "guy" would have it up on Ebay so fast...believe me...then who would be being ripped off?

So, I am sensitive to such accusations that I am ripping RoG or anyone else...I will defend myself against such allegations.

Where people join a forum and in three weeks target a member such as me, and I appreciate those who understood what I was saying...it works for me, that circuit will do, etc...and the most surface research into what they are really "up to"...well, I think they do need to be 'called out' for the sake of the forum to keep this kind of thing out of it. Perhaps his lack of reply will be enough for him to disappear, but I am sure even then he will reappear under yet another assumed name...part of any forum I am afraid.

It just seems amazing to me that this particular project, the sustainer, seems to particular attract such people, but it does for some reason. Plenty of people have their own take on fuzz's and such, many replicate the classic designs, some create their own flavours...but I have never seen anyone without even building one join up to abuse long standing designers because they "think" they can do better, don't like their writing style, or accuse a proven much verified design as being a hoax. I hope that I don't have to keep hammering that home, but I will as necessary.

I thank everyone else for their patience, reading is optional of course...the post above links to the sounds which in themselves should be enough to answer the critics and let people know what they are really getting with my suggestions and a basic sustainer system.

As for Bass...well you know, I did my sustainer more than half a decade ago now I see, and the last I built in earnest was in 2008. I have one in the works, but with this climate, any ambitions for further work and the moves I ahd made to make available tested circuits and coils for those who require those things, came to an end with the arival of people such as, if not in fact, gurner...so...take that as you may.

The guy thing...well, I am sensitive to such 'psychology'...de-personalizing a person as if there was not a real person communicating to you with a real name and feelings. This kind of disassociation is what gives people license to behave in the manner of a gurner...perhaps I should have started out with some privacy...but then, the start of the sustainer thread was my first introduction to any internet or forum. But when I read a lot of these kinds of posts, I can see this pattern and it disrupts the message...

Anyway...perhaps gurner will be inspired to find his own way and be his own sustainer celebrety somewhere and in so doing, attract his own bunch of crack pots...perhaps then, if I am still around and I see it, I can restrict my posts to...I told you so...but I suspect there are $$ in there eyes...otherwise he wouldn't be so secretive and ashamed of what he is in fact up to with this mysterious widget...

Quote from: Taylor on May 23, 2010, 02:47:30 AM
I think it would be best if all involved killed the personal attacks. This is not one of those forums where we do that kind of stuff. We are friendly and helpful here. Don't bring this place down to the standard of other music-related fora.

My point exactly.

Speaking of bass sustainers- we are going to give the one I'm building a try on my son's bass.

I started reading the million page thread on the other forum and gave up on building a sustainer.  When this one started I was hoping to get a condensed version but it's going out of control as well.  It would be nice to have an actual project file of something that actually works, maybe in the gallery.  If something requires breadboarding to tweek I can handle that but after reading a few hundred posts I'm not really sure even of what readily available material to make a bobbin with or what dimensions, or how to wind an pot it, much less an optmized driver circuit.  It may be in there somewhere but I don't have the patience to find it.  Appreciate the sharing of info for people with more patience though.

Quote from: fpaul on May 23, 2010, 10:55:41 AM
It would be nice to have an actual project file of something that actually works, maybe in the gallery. 

I'll post a write-up, some photos and/or video and/or sound clips when mine is finished. Getting the perfboard done today. Should be finished pretty soon.

Quote from: fpaul on May 23, 2010, 10:55:41 AM
I started reading the million page thread on the other forum and gave up on building a sustainer.  When this one started I was hoping to get a condensed version but it's going out of control as well.  It would be nice to have an actual project file of something that actually works, maybe in the gallery.  If something requires breadboarding to tweek I can handle that but after reading a few hundred posts I'm not really sure even of what readily available material to make a bobbin with or what dimensions, or how to wind an pot it, much less an optmized driver circuit.  It may be in there somewhere but I don't have the patience to find it.  Appreciate the sharing of info for people with more patience though.

This was my whole point (which seems to have been missed)....anyone who needs guidance on a sustainer circuit (& for what's it's worth I definitely don't) are simply going to be dumbfounded by the sheer volume of text & words wherever they look for DIY sustainer guidance!

On Project Guitar there's a thread spanning back almost 7 years - & whilst there are a few tutorials wrt making drivers (a simple device - a bobbin with some wire around it & a magnet attached!), the reader is pretty much on his own wrt the accompanying circuit (I emphasise, this is after 7 years - no recommended circuit!).

Now as it goes I most definitely don't need spoonfeeding - I'm more than capable of knocking up a sustainer circuit of my own (it won't be a basic ROG clone  ;))....therefore this is *not* about me being 'demanding' that some one tells me how to make a sustainer circuit....oh no.  

Nope, this was an observation that for all the words, pics & the persistent riding of a (perceived)  'kudos wave' being reaped at each & every presented opportinity...where's the beef? Cutting through a bazillion words, just what is his base recommended sustainer circuit ?(ie for those that perhaps do need some guidance).....he always ducks this one.

Time & time again I see others asking for a sustainer circuit eg saying they don't have either the time or inclination to wade through a monster amount of (very egocentric) schpiel .....or they don't have enough experience to design their own.

Now for someone adopting a self crowned DIY sustainer king stance ......there seems to be a massive amount of reluctance just to come right out & say "I suggest you make this circuit" - so I'm simply saying that, before you allow anyone to dominate similar threads on this forum like he apparently has on PG  (where the overall electronics experience is far lower) ...that those with a more refined electronics eye simply question through the noise just what is it is he's recommending.

I've laid out my stall -  while it'll obviously give sustain, the very basic ROG circuit touched upon earlier is not particularly appropriate for a decent sustainer (much as you can tow a small caravan with a large juggernaut, it'll tow, but it's not particularly elegant) - well controlled sustain is what you should get with a good sustainer - & that's a massive missing element in the ROG circuit - so if that's the best he can recommend , then perhaps folks are being hoodwinked by his sheer volume of pics & words. On Project Guitar where folks tend to obsess about things like walnut, fret wire & lemon oil, he's seemingly had carte blanche to be sketchy about the circuit aspect - but in a more techie savvy forum such as this  ....there ought to be more eyebrows raised.

And no, this isn't a p1ssing contest - (& you'll see no bizarre 'war & peace' posts from me) so I agree let's keep the forum walls dry!

Gurner, if you are fully capable of designing a more sophisticated circuit, and you are offended that no one has given a concise explanation with a ready-to-solder schematic and all the info in one succinct post or PDF, then why don't you do that? We'd all love to see it.

I have put together such projects several times now, with the Gristleizer, Tap Tempo Tremolo, Echo Base, and some other projects I'll be releasing soon. It's certainly helpful to condense the info from a huge thread (like the Echo Base thread) into a single file. It's not helpful to complain that someone you don't know hasn't given you the info you want. So (and this goes for all of life), instead of complaining that things aren't the way you'd like, get to work making it happen.  :)

Thanks Taylor...

There are numerous threads...see banika's DIY Layout Creator project site for instance where he built this thing...with pics...or below...or on numerous forums where this subject appears and people successfully make the things...or infact blogs that are popular now...a lot of my design has been replicated...

@fpaul

QuoteIf something requires breadboarding to tweek I can handle that but after reading a few hundred posts I'm not really sure even of what readily available material to make a bobbin with or what dimensions,

You have seen the pictorial of how to wind a driver?
http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211)

There are countless examples of others by many people. For that one you can hear on the clip as it happens I used the plastic from a folder, some PVC tape and some 3mm ordinary steel from the hardware store for the core...I used PVA glue to wind pot it and the pickups magnet. 0.2mm wire wound to 8 ohms. In the tele one I used small ceramic "dime store" craft magnets.

It is amazing how many people are at  home putting electronic components on a board to a given design, but fail at the arts and craft side of things. If it went "crazy" it almost always comes back to a poor driver. If it isn't potted absolutely, the internal windings will vibrate for instance. Also, installation is critical, you can't have any pickup other than the bridge pickup in circuit (hot or grounded) for it not to have a transformer effect on nearby coils...most of the 300 pages are in fact about finding the problems like this and discovering invariably that the driver was at fault.

I can't know without details what 'went wrong'...but it sounds like you need me to tell you where to locate plastic around your house for instance...perhaps this kind of project is not for you...it is certainly not "pre-packages and a...well, if i just put these components together like lego...I will get a fuzz box kind of thing...it does take some lateral thinking and ingenuity. No point blaming a proven project till all possible reasons for failure have been eliminated.

A story that I always liked from "dick Smith" who sold lots of electronics and kits in the 70's...a guy bought an expensive amp kit, built it perfectly...but it didn't work...he sent pictures and it was built immaculately...eventually the guy brought it in to Dick himself...the entire thing was put together with epoxy glue...customer thought with such an expensive thing, this would be even better and stronger than solder. (oddly enough you see this all the time with drivers...wood glue, i don't think so...but it is a complete misunderstanding to say use super glue or none at all)

@DougH

QuoteI think it would be best if all involved killed the personal attacks. This is not one of those forums where we do that kind of stuff. We are friendly and helpful here. Don't bring this place down to the standard of other music-related fora.

Unfortunately...continues to attack while not coming out and simply saying that he came here less than a month ago to attack me and to pick the brains of prominent members about such things as "phase correction" refusing to tell in his own there what would appear to be a sustainer circuit project...presumably because he seeks to appear as all his own work that he also claims perfectly capable of doing himself...but of course in these threads..."I can't find a 9v op-amp" and I'm just a "hobbiest, not a designer" belie.

Why does Gurner not just come out and say he seeks to build a better sustainer circuit and be done with it...why does he need a recommendation from someone he has such vitriol and obsession with "beating" as me? Why must I spoon feed a 'troll' with details of what I have done if he is, as he claims on this thread, but not on the others in this forum, that he knows what he is doing?

Because, he sees the popularity of the project, and sees himself as a "king"...and to be a king, you need to create one to depose...in this case me...mock and recruit allies with logical fallacies, and then...miraculously appear with the "ultimate design"...saving the day and elevating him to the status he sees me (ironically only attracting more trolls much like himself in the process).

...

QuoteSpeaking of bass sustainers- we are going to give the one I'm building a try on my son's bass.

See the post on previous page regarding bass sustainers and other information...the driver and circuit types I have used work in the guitar range, I personally have achieved sustain and harmonics with this set up on a bass...but it is not designed to work on fundamentals in this range as is. You are then likely to do a fair bit of work to tweak the amp response to handle such low frequencies effectively and the driver itself may need a lower resonant frequency to be efficient at those frequencies.

As before, don't judge the sustainer I describe for guitar, if it does not work as you envisage on bass. It is of course possible to do. However, I kind of think that for best results, given the string spacing...a driver for each string might be more effective...maybe even a small stereo amplifier...just thinking off the top of my head of course.

It would be good to see, except my own fledgling attempts, no one else, so far, has really taken a bass sustainer on in earnest...

...of course there's more...

And finally...at @Gurner...

QuoteThis was my whole point (which seems to have been missed)....anyone who needs guidance on a sustainer circuit  (& for what's it's worth I definitely don't) are simply going to be dumbfounded by the sheer volume of text & words  wherever they look for DIY sustainer guidance!

Are you seeing $$ signs or something? Why are you being so elusive if your reason here is to make a sustainer circuit? If you are so at home with designing circuits and such, why are you picking minds here on phase correction without at least saying what it is you wnat to correct for? If so adept, why are you not capable of finding your own op-amp, or seting up a voltage divider to drive any number of the things? Why is such a 'happy_chap' so fast to remove his own email from this forum? Don't worry, I certainly wasn't going to contact you to get abuse, but perhaps others might to help you in this endeavour that you claim here, but deny in other threads, you are perfectly capable of doing.

If so capable...why no circuit and driver design...

Lets not forget the Driver. Notice how Gurner (and a fallacy of many others) keeps accentuating the circuit. See how he mocks me with type face and words of distain..."my first circuit"...cute, but no dice.

For instance, the reason that you need phase compensation is because you need to compenstate for the electromagnetic qualities of the coil, which alters with frequency. There is plenty in the sustainer patents on this...check out the Floyd Rose Patent for a good introduction to this concept and how he achieved it.

But..the important thing in designing such a thing is that you are compensating for a particular driver specification and quality. Now...have you in fact made your own driver, or like many others taken the heart of my system, my driver, and designing you circuit to suit it. If you think that any coil of wire and magnets will work, you are sadly mistaken.

This "driver" is the critical component in this system, and if needing phase correction, will require it to be tailored for those specific qualities. Do you have the inductance meters and spectrum analyzers to know the resonsnaces and inductances with frequency of mine or any given driver...I don't. If you have, you admit a poor grasp of the maths, so how are you going to be able to interpret it?

I acknowledge that this is not my strong point. But I have gone further, I can't control everyone else's driver qualities, I work with in a range and tried to develop a "design", that you seem to belittle (so you better not simply copy the concept), that would work in the range required without this requirement. It looks completely different and has completely different from any other driver design before...a radical departure. Now, it's simple sure, but it isn't just "any coil of wire" otherwise countless others would have been successful before me and since and they simply haven't...

I claim my design will work effectively with simple amplification...I have provided clips and had it verified successfully over and again. You seem to have completely ignored that.

QuoteOn Project Guitar there's a thread spanning back almost 7 years - & whilst there are a few tutorials wrt making drivers (a simple device - a bobbin with some wire around it & a magnet attached!), the reader is pretty much on his own wrt the accompanying circuit (I emphasise, this is after 7 years - no recommended circuit!).

No...you are misleading again, and I think you know it! GalagaMike in this tutorial put forward the RoG Fetzer/Ruby design, and may I add with permission and collaboration apparently with RoG. I say, you need a small amplifier and he goes out and gets one...didn't ask me, jst found one. I say that you know it, because, in a special twist, you attribute this to me. Unfortunately for that tutorial, he went through no peer review or consultation and very much wanted to be the first person to make a "tutorial" in the reference section on the sustainer...so a bit of ego there...but not mine!

And it worked, in a fashion. He did fail on several critical driver aspects. He did not use a proper magnet, he used recovered big overly strong Neodymium magnets from disk drives...and stuck them on the end of a stainless steel core. Well, that's a bad plan...then he used a different wire gauge, creating a coil with a different resonant frequency. The result was that he struggle to get the high strings sustaining...well, surprise surprise. But, what it wasn't was this circuit...which was not "ripped off" but offered up by RoG apparently.

So...two points, one THE DRIVER IS A CRITICAL COMPONENT and in fact a part of the circuit. If attempting to design a circuit, ANY CIRCUIT MUST BE DESIGNED AROUND THIS CRITICAL COMPONENT.

So, anyone who knows anything about sustainers knows that the secret to success is in the driver and that the circuit can be refined in many ways, but it must be designed for a specific driver design.

I sense a strategy that I has seen before...oh, lets make out that anything will work...then come up with something remarkabley similar to what pete's been doing for years, then hoodwink them into thinking that my "magic circuit" is the secret and the driver is immaterial.

Well...it isn't, it's critical. You may say, well...it's so simple, anyone could have come up with that...so it doesn't matter! Well it does on so many levels...one they didn't. The eBow is very simple too...is it ok to rip them off because their idea is so elegantly simple...and call it our own by belittling the concept even as you repeat it? No...of course not...but I sense that is where you are headed...but then, you are an elusive fellow aren't you Gurner, don't want even on this thread to tell us what it is you came here for...besides pissing on me. If you are making a sustainer circuit, why not just discuss it openly.

Anyone here with any real knowledge...a guy like R.G. for instance who knows quite a lot about transformer design as I am led to believe...would need to know the qualities of the coil to help you with phase correction. You started a thread, attracted an expert...yet you just simply couldn't tell even him what it was you were trying to acheive. Here of course you are perfectly capable of working this stuff out...without me around it's...oh please, I can't find me a 9v op-amp...can yuou find if for me...come on...wheres the spoon gurner...

Oh yes...you asked for AN amp...I gave you one...ever since you have suggested I ripped of RoG (members here of course) and recommend it for you...but I absolutely did not. I heard a crying child and attempted to pacify it...but you spat the dummy, cause you want to continue your tantrum.

I try and explain some simple facts and truths to you...but you are still flailing about and not paying attention.

The only reason you want to build a sustainer circuit it would seem, is not because you want to build a sustainer, better or otherwise, is because you seek to put yourself forward as addressing a need (that's the charitable reading mind)...perhaps make some $$...and otherwise grab attention that you don't think I deserve. However, if your prime motive was to actually build a sustainer...you would have done it now before knocking me and every other person of dozens, several who are members here...who have successfully built such a thing!!!!

Well...do the eBow guys not deserve admiration...they simply used a coil and an LM386 amp. But...news gurner...it isn't just any coil...there is a metal shield around both coils in it, the spacing is important and they designed said coils to work with a simple circuit...EXACTLY what I did too! Lets all mock and belittle the Ebow shall we for Gurner's sake....

...

So...You have the ability to make an original idea for a driver...or are you simply going to start out like so many others "ripping off mine"? And when you have done this, you are going to make it available freely for all to see and use as they wish...perhaps make it even "betterer"...work it so that it works in the way they would like it to sound? Not try and use the 'sustainer audience' to profit from such a thing and feed you fragile ego? I mean, if you are working on a sustainer, it isn't absolutely clear, you would say so right...apparently not!

Have you even seen sustainer regular Col's dual coil drivers (which like mine don't require phase correction which seems to bother you with your driver)? Have you not done enough research to see the numoerous circuits including this one of his...have you ead the convincing arguments for feed forward AGC control for sustainer circuits?

Here's a clue then...oh no, now I ahve to go and do the work again...

(http://www.thethirdending.com/randomstuff/sustainer_compressor.GIF)

This is one from CurtisA...AGC and all...I'm sure if you are as clued up as you make out, you will understand it, or be able to go and see his description in the thread...hmmm...for something more complete...

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m15/col_012/colslayour3P4THswch.gif)

The Above is cols forward feed design that he has used with some success as I say, freely posted with a complete layout...tested, but like all good designers, seeking more, changing drivers, and moving on...Note, his rights are reserved...I suspect if I recommended a circuit to you, those rights may not be respected.

Now...how is it that I could get that out of google and you couldn't? You have typed sustainer into it haven't you...sustainer circuit perhaps?

Sheeesh...it certainly does sound feel like spoon feeding to me...you are familiar with google...then surely you know about these circuits from the PG sustainer collective?

Come on...there are lots of designs, are you seriously telling me that you are capable of designing the type of circuit shown above, plus a layout, and design your own driver design, and post sound clips of the thing actually working as Col did years back now (2007 or earlier) when you are not apparently able to do enough basic search using google to find the things, even when I earlier told you directly in this very thread, that such things existed.

The difference is that Col, actually built one...we disagree on quite a few things me and Col...we have different criteria on performance and utility...but instead of just pissing on me, or ripping off my ideas...or even taking the patents stuff at face value or as necessary (which I gather is where your phase correction stuff comes from)...he took what I started, discussed openly about some ideas, put them into practice, and came up with this, built it, tested it...here it is again 3-4 years later...

For the sake of others, this circuit provides sophisticated forward feed AGC and has 4 modes of operation aimed at a lot of control and evenness and strong fundamentals and using filters for harmoinc and response effects.

Now...am I recommending it...no, I have not built it...I was not sure that it was the kind of sound I desired anyway...and as far as I know, it has been freely available to use for 3-4 years and only Col has built it. However, it sounds exactly what Gurner is after...so a bit of reinventing of the wheel don't you think...but hang on, we don't know what the driver Gurner is proposing..well, even that's presumptuous, because he has yet to confirm that this is in fact his "widget" that he needs phase correction for.

No...again, straight into the mis-information, mis-guided no experience attacks on me. I am not the "King of sustainers"...lets hand it to Col, or Curtis, or Tim...or the very many who have made great strides in the sustainer project with cooperation instead of confrontation and abuse. Lets here if for the people who have the courage of conviction to use their real names and say exactly what they are doing, who discuss things openly, show their work, their successes and their failures along the way...and in the end, and ongoing come up with things like the above too...just as a sample.

But...noooooooo...Gurner knows better I'm sure...doesn't need help from anyone here, wont be turning up at PG trying to seel his wares...I'm sure that all he really wants to do is build a sustainer for himself...or a widget...and it's as innocent as that. The pursuit of me and the project and the work of myself and those more knowledgable than me by inference...that's just an amusing hobby for mr Happy_Chap form the Uk...oops, sorry...now you don't want your email address known either...only because someone suggested you take your pissing match with me off the public arena!

You may mock my length of posts, you may really hate me for some reason...I can't diagnose your obsession from here...but really, you are hardly showing any credibility at all...secretive to not even disclose what you are seeking to do...widget...while seeking help here for said widget...that you continually protest that you don't need help with said widget...while asking for the most basic researching questions and thinking that phase is the first priority...though you don't seem to have the driver to measure and analyze to even woirk out what "phase correction" would be necessary. And by far the most of your limited posts have been right here, hijacking a thread based on my work...to push your own, undisclosed but transparent...agenda.

There are plenty of circuits available...if you don't like my simple eBow inspired solution working up a driver that will work with a simple circuit of a huge range of which many have been presented...and none of mine ripped off mind. Then perhaps something like Col's is more your cup of tea...it sounds like that's exactly what you are after. It's open for use (though not commercially, so watch out...no ripping off now) and proven to work. However, despite it being around and even further refined...I'll let you do the research on the schematics and variations shall i?...as far as I am aware, no one but col has built the thing.

While you are at it, you might want to look at how he went about it...and it didn't include pissing on me, but doing some original and hard work...on the driver, and the circuit.

Had enough yet...do I need to keep feeding you still...still worried I won't show you mine when I will show you far more sophisticated solutions that seem to exceed your aims?

QuoteI can't know without details what 'went wrong'...but it sounds like you need me to tell you where to locate plastic around your house for instance...perhaps this kind of project is not for you...it is certainly not "pre-packages and a...well, if i just put these components together like lego...I will get a fuzz box kind of thing...it does take some lateral thinking and ingenuity. No point blaming a proven project till all possible reasons for failure have been eliminated.

Nothing went "wrong", I just didn't have the patience to wade thru your incredibly verbose and self agrandizing posts to pick out the necessary info.  I've never made an attempt to build one. Your reply to me was a perfect example as you seem to be insulting my intelligence.  I'm sure I "could" do it but frankly a sustainer hasn't been at the top of my list of desires anyway.  I was trying to give some constructive input and even thanked you for posting the info.  Jeezz.  I'm done with this thread as I really wasn't trying to get into it with anybody but, Jeezz.

@PSW

QuoteAs before, don't judge the sustainer I describe for guitar, if it does not work as you envisage on bass. It is of course possible to do. However, I kind of think that for best results, given the string spacing...a driver for each string might be more effective...maybe even a small stereo amplifier...just thinking off the top of my head of course.

I'm not building your version.

@fpaul...apologies for offending, but I read these words...

QuoteI'm not really sure even of what readily available material to make a bobbin with or what dimensions, or how to wind an pot it

to imply that while you can tweak a circuit, you were not sure how to wind an inductor. There was also a link provided with a pictorial of exactly how to wind such an inductor...

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211)

All in three posts, and almost entirely pictures. I took this to mean that you needed help with find the "material to make a bobbin" or what the dimensions of a pickup are (or at least the width of your guitars string spread) and that by actually showing you the glue bottle and myself winding the wire with the glue was insufficient.

As I say, my apologies if your words above, don't actually mean what they seemed to be saying. Yes, I have developed an "attitude" in recent times and you would not be the first to suggest that I have not told them what they could find around the home to make a bobbin from for instance. Your words seemed to say that, I responded with the logical response.

These things are not for the kind of people who simply know how to read a layout, or even make one with creator, order the parts, solder it together, plug it in and play. Winding inductors is pretty basic stuff, but it is unusual...these ones can be trickier than some, but really, it is 10 mins work and all of the information is in 3 short picture laden posts and I even provided the sound clips here to here what that actual driver did in that guitar.

As a result, I feel that I am spoon feeding people a little overly.

@ DougH...great, look forward to hearing it

This thread is a hijacked thread, why you thought it would be atutorial I don't know...why it evoked the BS from Gurner I don't know...however...sinc ethe whole thread is radically off topic and those weighing in later seemed to have ignored the OP...this is the typical kind of thing...and in this, the first post...

QuoteHi
I've been working on the sustainer project based on a ruby schematic. My problem is the driver part. I have been searching and find info about the amplifier but not much about the driver.
I've tried with an old P90 pickup whitch is 8ohm and it did'nt wotk. I don't understand why ? What is the big difference between the drvier and a standard pickup with the right impedance ?
Do you know place where it's well explained ?
thanx

Benfox...contrary to what Gurner has been saying..."My problem is the driver part. I have been searching and find info about the amplifier but not much about the driver."....the driver, not the circuit, could find plenty...understand?

"I've tried with an old P-90 whixh is 8 ohms and it didn't work"...lets see, its a standard known pickup...anyone hazzard a guess...yes, that's right was measuring it wrong, in fact this pickup could well be 8K ohms so only out by an extra 7992 ohms there...

Whats the difference between a standard pickup and a driver...well an enormous amount...otherwise Gurners and others theory that any coil will work with any old AC curret will sustain the strings. Ok, well you guys know more than me. How much voltage can you reasonably expect to push through a wire as thin as a hair...and 8K ohms? How many turns of pickup wire would get you to 8 ohms..10, 20? And would you expect this ta make much EMF? Ok, so...lets go the other way, lets use really thick wire, how many turns now... Too much...let's see, what are the resonance, capacitance and inductance qualities of these various coils...oh no, created time lags in resopnse with phase, better get Gurner on the phase correction formulas, I've built a coil that requires compesation in the guitar range to work at all...no problem, just a little digital hocus pocus, a little software adjustment...and away we go...back to where pete was...now about that AGC...hmmm

first response...

Quote
I'd say it has something to do with size or mass and its ability to resonate (don't really know - just a guess). I built my driver around a piece of steele cut from a PC-network card and around 200 rounds of copper wire. Works great!

I on the other hand have problems with the electronix part. My fetzer ruby tends to oscillate really easily.

Oh...followed the instructions (I don't know either of these people btw) but having trouble with the circuit..well, did he imlement the mods appropriate for the F/R to bring it up to standard...as per the data sheet...well, I ahve provided such a list, and if I had read that, i would simply have suggested same...

QuoteI think the pickup was probably closer to 8K ohms

Yeah...good answer...I was not privy to any of this, but I was sure someone would eventually work that out...none of you guys I notice...but there you go...

Eventually the OP returns after a disucussion about me and that the sustainer thread had been deleted due entirely to this kind of BS not allowing questions to be answered properly..and every thread hijacked by people like Gurner with an agenda and mis information and absolutely nothing to show for the posturing...

so we have...

QuoteI've tried with a 0.5 wire with about 150 turns. The string just oscillate a bit with a big distort behind.

Ahh...so we will not be following the instructions or the pictorial or the specifications. An am I to take it that when you can't get the appropriate tranny or IC you guys think that any 8pin chip is the same as another..they look the same right? How is this any different at all...is 0.5mm wire the same as 0.2mm wire...it's a huge effective difference...

Oh...and it didn't work...again, exposing the myth that just any coil will work effectively...

And then, the forum alerted me to these threads, so I signed in to see if I could help...

QuoteThe design for a basic sustainer is quite clear...0.2 ohms wound to 8ohms with a thin profile.There are mods to the Fetzer/ruby circuit that make it more stable, that was not my suggestion, but any number of non-loading (buffered or preamped) small amplifier circuits (typically LM386 based) will work. The secret is in the driver IMHO...

Also attaching the links to the short tutorials. See...offering help, saying that there are solutions to the oscillation if that is a problem and offering to help, point the way to where the answers are on that one...and explain that there is a formula and you can't just do something completely different and expect to get a response from it...any more than you could just substitute any old chip cause you didn't have the correct one handy.

I also repeated my earlier stance, and all in one sentence...that apparently people chose to ignore...

Really it completely answers all of Gurner and other peoples question right there does it not?

# RoG fetzer or any other circuit, is not my suggestion (or recommendation)
# The design is for a well potted thin profile coil wound with 0.2mm wire to 8ohms
# There are mods available, from me, and on the data sheet, that make the RoG design more stable with such loads. Why RoG deleted these is unknown...I simply put them back...but you gentleman would be smart enough to catch that right?
# the secret is in the driver...

Now...typically, and again here, we get the same thing. Then a bunch of asides about my words or ego or whatever...and blaming the design. Do you really think that the examples that I have quoted, what this thread was really for, was going to turn into a tutorial when such things have existed since 2004 and have been so obviously ignored?

How am I to know if I read in such a thread these words...

QuoteI'm not really sure even of what readily available material to make a bobbin with or what dimensions, or how to wind an pot it

That you are actually, counter to this, able to work out the size of the coil and how to make yourself a bobbin out of household stuff...when it has been posted and linked to you...IN PICTURES!!!

I tell you, it is spoon feeding, and just jumping on the bandwagon...at the very least hijacking the thread and asserting things that are the exact opposite in the OP's original post...I am having trouble with the driver! Because, sorry, there are a lot of very knowledgable people here, I have about 50 stompboxes and been making stuff for over thirty years...the sustainer was just one of many things I ahve done and continue to do...but there are a lot of people here who simply know how to solder component on a board, as long as they are able to be bought and there's a minimum of making. Give them a speaker box and ask them to wind a common passive cross over coil...and it would be out with the mouser catalogue to see if I couldn't just buy one so fast...

You over estimate the majority of people here, as anywhere. That's not a knock, just a fact. I can't tell the difference sometimes. I can only go by the words...

QuoteI'm not really sure even of what readily available material to make a bobbin with...

Did you expect to find sustainer bobbins in the catalogue too? Look, Banika for instance made one, just use a single coil pickup bobbin...oh, again, my idea...sheeesh. 15 year old kids with no experience have done this ok, with a little soldering help from dad...and you think I shouldn't crack a bit patronising when people pass themselves off as supposedly capable? Come on...time to feed yourself...it sounds like you never actually had an interest anyway. I had assumed you and others had at least tried and it didn't work...

That coil in the pictorial took all of 10 minutes to wind...and I was taking the pictures so it slowed me down a little...how hard can it be?

o.k. i'm exhausted. i won't comment on right/wrong or take sides in this, because i don't see the point. i paint abstract paintings. some people get it. some people think it's b.s. i dont do it for the people that think it's b.s. and i don't do it for the people who like it. i do it because i paint abstract paintings.

i think i'll go down the  e-bow route for now and try and make the 2 coils for 6 strings.....off board of course.seperate unit...
..dont want to ruin a perfect guitar for it...

just to experiment...with no arguing...except with myself ha ha..no i wont..yes i will... :icon_rolleyes:

When I finish mine, at this point I'm kind of hesitant to post anything about it.

Quote from: psw on May 23, 2010, 11:09:19 PM

You over estimate the majority of people here,

No I don't ....and it's a bit rich to waltz over to an educated forum such as this spouting off like the 'big I am', with not even so much as a schematic to your own name (& then  start putting the locals down)

Like for like, by & large folks here are rather well versed in electronics (& therefore 'waffle' such as yours doesn't wash) -  and even after all your verbose replies, you've still not tabled *your* sustainer circuit recommendation. You seem to have adopted some form of internet sustainer librarian role - which has confused you into thinking you're associated with other's innovative sustainer circuit designs.

This is why you can't bring yourself around to  recommending a circuit - you just don't know. (Note: I'm trying to save many a lot of time wading through all the DIY sustainer thread mud ...only to come out the other side & find out they got dirty for no reason.)

Once you've your own circuit (or recommended circuit) - then maybe you'll win some of the credibility you so obviously yearn for, but for now, I'm firmly categorizing you as someone who hoards others' work like a stamp collector.

And before anyone has a pop at me ...I'm not the one claiming to be some form of self crowned DIY sustainer expert - but I strongly believe that someone who does, ought to at least come to the forum with a decent recommended circuit.

Ok, that's all I'm saying ...like fpaul, I'm done with this thread - so no need for the inevitable soapbox warriors.

I'm starting to see why there aren't many threads on sustainers. Perhaps there's too much fear that the same ol' personalities will get involved, the thread will get hijacked and consequently ruined.

I've reported this one to the moderator- just so everyone knows.

Quote from: deadastronaut on May 22, 2010, 12:42:06 PM
if so does it sustain on the b and e strings, especially above the 12th fret..on a 24 fret guitar...
as i ve read that it can be a bit weak  on them..

does it matter what gauge of strings..? i use 9's...

i'd love to have this on my ibanez rg470... or even on a knockabout old guitar...

iirc, on sustainiac's FAQ, they advise against 24 fret guitars for their sustainer. I've seen both Fernandes and Floyd Rose sustainers on 24 fret guitars (Jackson Phill Collen signature model for the Floyd), and I've seen demoes of it working about the 12th fret, but no hands on experience for me. The guitar I have a sustainer in is 22 fret, and I use .11's!

While this is a non-reversable solution to the 24 fret Ibanez RG problem, this thread (http://forum.ibanez.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=78114) may be of interest to you.

Quote from: DougH on May 24, 2010, 09:47:33 AMI've reported this one to the moderator- just so everyone knows.

Thanks Doug. I was thinking of doing the same.

The reason they don't recommend 24 fret guitars is because it pushes the sustainer coil too close to the pickup coil and you get squealing. There's a certain minimum distance you need to maintain to avoid the squealing.

Quote from: space_ryerson on May 24, 2010, 02:28:56 PM

Quote from: deadastronaut on May 22, 2010, 12:42:06 PM
if so does it sustain on the b and e strings, especially above the 12th fret..on a 24 fret guitar...
as i ve read that it can be a bit weak  on them..

does it matter what gauge of strings..? i use 9's...

i'd love to have this on my ibanez rg470... or even on a knockabout old guitar...

iirc, on sustainiac's FAQ, they advise against 24 fret guitars for their sustainer. I've seen both Fernandes and Floyd Rose sustainers on 24 fret guitars (Jackson Phill Collen signature model for the Floyd), and I've seen demoes of it working about the 12th fret, but no hands on experience for me. The guitar I have a sustainer in is 22 fret, and I use .11's!

While this is a non-reversable solution to the 24 fret Ibanez RG problem, this thread (http://forum.ibanez.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=78114) may be of interest to you.

Quote from: DougH on May 24, 2010, 09:47:33 AMI've reported this one to the moderator- just so everyone knows.

Thanks Doug. I was thinking of doing the same.

Hmmmm.thanks...looks like i'll be doing experiments on an old crapocaster or some other unsuspecting piece of crap..then...bummer!...

cheers for the info though...saved a lot of grief!...

Just an idea i thought i'd throw out here...

Right, so the drivers that i've seen on various boards seem to be based on a rail pickup, or a normal single coil bobbin shape, with the magnet through the middle of the coil. The coil is then wrapped to approximately 8k resistance. Great. about a week or two ago, i was investigating the plausability of making my own pickups, which is where i came across the whole sustainer discussion. In the process of investigating how to make a humbucker, i dismantled an old bridge pickup I couldn't help but notice a few similarities between the sustainer driver, and the pickup.

When i dismantled it, i got to the stage where i had a lot of it seperated. I had the magnet, spacers, screws, even the two coils seperated. Out of interest, i measured the resistance of one of the coils. 8.4k. Hmmm.... If the coil's pole pieces are positioned in such a way that they're directly under the strings, maybe i wouldn't have to do much effort to make a driver out of this.

So, onto my VERY optimistic theory. As the coil sits, with nothing connected to it, it's not magnetised in any way. Fine. So what if i put the magnet from the pickup, and connected it at the bottom of the coil. The 6 pole pieces become magnetised, as per the driver. So then what if i built the ruby amp thing, and connected it to the coil, as per the build. Is it essentially the exact same thing???

Here's a rough diagram of my theory. If it works, then making these drivers is going to be MUCH easier and cheaper. In the picture you can see the magnet sticking out, and the two wires for the start/end of the coil.

(http://i48.tinypic.com/2rn7rbr.jpg)

@trad3mark

A power surge took out my post, but I'll have another go...

Converting an HB to a driver has been done by Primal for instance, I think the pics have gone down over the years, but he did it without modifying the HB, just winding the coil to one of the bobbins...his write up is in the PG tutorial I believe. He used the F/R and made it small enough to fit in the selector cavity of his LP copy. It worked well by all accounts.

You may also want to refer to Banika's tutorial on making such a driver (on the more single coil)...

http://diy-fever.com/misc/diy-sustainer/ (http://diy-fever.com/misc/diy-sustainer/)

(http://diy-fever.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/sustainer/winding_done.jpg)

You will notice that the bobbin is "blocked up" to leave the required 3mm space for winding at the top of the coil, as per the design and many others have done before successfully. Also notice the use of white glue to pot the coil while winding, it is crucial that the coil is "solid" and allows for no internal vibrations. This is done in exactly the same way as the tutorial/pictorial linked before. Note also, that I supplied the 0.2mm wire as a donation in return for the work on the fabulous DIY Layout creator software and that the layout for a F/R design is offered there as well.

Note, the main mods I do recommend trying, is a 1k trim pot and a 10uF cap in series between pins 1 & 8 of the LM 386. the cap helps keep the chip happy (prevents internal oscillations) as per the data sheet for high gain applications, the trim pot allows the gain to be set below 'squealing' for a given guitar installation. For a result like my systems, I suggest a 100uF output cap for improved high string response and a nice bloom in the lower strings. Of course, tweak any such circuit for the response you seek.

...

Taylor is right, the commercial systems, in fact all sustainers, require a distance between the source pickup and the drivers. The pickup is obviously designed to be extremely sensitive to fluctuations in magnetic fields...like vibrating metal strings...and producing a signal. A driver is optimized for putting out hi electromagnetic signals...obviously the pickup can 'pickup' the signal of the driver. The effect is exactly as if putting a microphone near an amps speaker...squealing feedback.

...

Also note, that any near by coils (say middle or neck pickups, especially if it is built on top of a pickup) must be completely removed from circuit. The result of nearby coils is akin to a transformer, with the pickup coils haveing 1,000s more turns stepping up the interference. So, in installing, you must remove both the hot and the grounds of all nearby coils. I have provided 4pdt switch options to deal with pickups with more than a bridge pickup to cope with this. You need to remove all pickups other than the bridge from circuit (generally I remove the entire selector) and connect the bridge pickup (I hard wire the circuit to the bridge pickup) and turn on the power (usually by switching the -Ve to ground).

...

One should always test these things before modifying guitars, this can be done by holding the driver above the strings, over the neck, well away from all pickups. It is still best to take the output directly from the bridge pickup before the controls, not from the output jack.

...

Yes, while there are currently 6 active threads and new work on the sustainer, most have been closed in the last year because of hijacking and abuse, mainly towards myself. And, a vast amount of mis-information.

I was alerted to this thread, by email, and from the OP and attempted to answer his question. Throughout, Gurner, a member here of less than a month (compared to the years I have been a member and under my own name), has pushed home his own agenda, statistically mainly to hijack this thread for the purposes of belittling my work, while all the time apparently (though still not admitted) joined here to develop a circuit of his own, with the help of the member here, while preferring not to disclose what he wanted the information for?!

Now, I have made it clear. There is no "perfect" circuit. My driver designs are my own, there are others that work. If you want a very even tamed down sustainer...what Gurner would call a "decent" sustainer...well, I have even provided some examples there, exactly like the ones that he is seeking to explore, available freely for years and discussed at length and findable by the simplest of google searches. I never in any way suggested that these were my own, but they did come out of the work that arose from the huge sustainer thread...and many of these people continue to refine their ideas still further. Gurner does, or at least should know this.

Compare all the work I have done, the working versions of various kinds, the mountains of evidence and the numerous independent and successful recreations/verifications of what I have done...with the complete absence of the likes of Gurner...or so it would seem. In fact, he even lacks the sense to even tell the people he is asking these question of, what he is trying to achieve.

Yes, the threads are hijacked and completely ruined. I think you will find that I came here to help, provided that information...and it soon deteriorated when Gurner came along to push his agenda directly at me. It would not surprise me if this wasn't just a continuation of the kind of thing from the other forum, and I respond accordingly.

Any person, at any time, could contribute to this project, make their own. All I have asked is that if the driver design and ideas of mine, or any one else's, is acknowledged. TELEFUNKON kindly posted links to many threads I posted here over the years, and you can see all I have ever done was to report what was happening in my work, encourage those who have more skills than me to contribute, or to do my own research in the development of my own circuit designs.

I welcome the attention of and even correspondence with the moderators on the behavior and agenda of Gurner, who, one notes took down his email from public view the day it was suggested that he might like to take his beef off the public arena. Mine has always been freely available.

I welcome any person, even the gurners of this world, and always have, to build these devices...the amazing thing is not that I don't "recommend" circuits, but that none of these people have ever come up with one despite their protests of how they "could".,,in over 7 years. It is also amazing, that in all that time, no one has come up with an easier, more consistent, working design, than the one I presented over 6 years ago, and the subject of this thread.

There have been many Gurners come along, but few have produced anything of note, and often using the exact same designs, or so similar it is laughable, after all the talk has died down and they actually go away and do some work on the things.

I welcome and encourage it, there are others who have provided circuits, I have done my own, I've even told exactly what the originals used and provided sound clips. Obviously I have my own circuit, and several successful driver designs, I don't need credibility, I encourage you to do better...I'm sure it can be done, I am still just waiting...

Gurner simply fails to understand, that there is no perfect circuit, and I will not be goaded into presenting mine as a "recommendation". All manner of generic circuits will work with my driver designs, that's what the driver design was for, that's the point of the exercise. Gurner buys into the myth that the circuit is the key. However, he also thinks that everyone wants what he calls a "decent" sustainer...people want what works for them, there is no "perfect distortion" circuit...there are ones people like.

Perhaps it the Gurners of the world actually build one, well, then people can judge. Others have done and advocated strongly for various types, I have offered them, but you know...strangely, no one else seems to have reproduced them for themselves. I don't know why, they also work and are fine designs that give more of a response like Gurner seems to want.

Remember I have made dozens, in truth well over a hundred different types of drivers in the last 8 years, I did my first experiments 15 years before that.

I know that there are a huge number of very knowledgeable people here, I joined here years back for that reason (not less than a month to secretly pick their brains), but equally true, and if people are honest, the majority are people who would like to build a stompbox, start out with something simple, get a verified proven schematic and support when things go wrong (an awful lot of the posts in the forum, right?) and don't necessarily want to be 'designers' or experts in electronics, and would admit this to be true. Some do have aspirations for sure, some go on to learn and create some really cool stuff. These people are not as numerous.

I started on the sustainer thing quite innocently. I had been p0laying with some idea, I had made several guitars, I could solder well and had made several stompboxes, I played guitar (and still do) in bands in the early 80's, I have a degree in music including components int he physics of music...and like to tinker. The internet bacame widely available, I started a thread. Originally, because I ahd some new ideas about pickups and started to make them.

In researching this, I came across the sustainer stuff again, I rethought my earlier naive approaches, and though this would not be too hard. Started a thread, and built a lot of the things...and over the years refined it. This thread, unknown to me, would attract dozens of like minded people, all of whom contributed, as much as anyone LK who was a prominent member here and a good friend until he passed away (in fact, it might even have been me that alerted members here of his passing, I don't quite recall) and was involved from the start. It grew. But after some years and thousands of posts and 100's of 1,000's of visits, it started to attract some very odd people, people just like gurner, and as a result, every thread had been hijacked, myself cyber-stalked, and most of the material removed.

Hence, I have no patience when a thread is hijacked in the manner this one was, and by people like gurner who pass themselves off as knowing anything about the technology, making claims that he could do better...but not in fact apparently, having done anything or having anything to offer at all.

I'd much rather answer, and have those answers not adulterated by such rants, much as I attempted at the start of this post, and indeed the answer to the OP at the start of this thread. These kinds of things are exactly whey the main thread became so big and hard to search. Even the tutorials, which were succinct and meant to help, were hijacked and had to be closed. Many of the really abusive posts did have to be removed. Many such posts and even false material were removed and then denied though screen shots of the originals prove otherwise.

I'm glad that gurner has called it a day. I wish him luck in looking for the holy grail of sustainer circuits and hope that he does as much work on drivers as I did to come up with the simple but effective designs I did.

Many threads have started here about sustainers, they just are not supported, nor is there the interest or the expertise in general, or so it seems. Plus, invariably they seem to relate back to my work and copying my designs, just like in this thread. So, great, love to see a completely new and unrelated design and approach to these things, always have, always will.

Don't think for a minute that I like defending myself on something like this that was completed pretty much 6 years ago and having to correct the outlandish and false claims of the Gurners...just look back and see who really hijacked this thread...then do some history into the people responsible for the same things elsewhere. See how the old helping psw has been replaced with this version...cause every time I do post on this subject with a genuine desire to help with a design I pioneered and created...gurner or someone just like him, comes forward with the same kind of abuse and mis-conception and lack of any work at all to sustain his own credibility. Knowing full well I have made and designed many circuits (he demands I show him for instance) while now saying that if I want credibility, i'd design some.

So sure, I encourage the moderators or anyone else to look into the actual circumstances here, and verify my assertions, and anyone to contact me by means I have never kept hidden (or suddenly as in the case of Gurner) then take a look seriously at people like him, should they choose to do so.

pete (psw): although I have never intended to build such a device, I`ve been following your posts with much interest from a general technical standpoint since their beginning on this forum. Thank you for all that information you provided! Don`t let a few individuals` negative opinions get you down! Thumbs up!

@trademark..

yeah i pulled apart an old humbucker and got 2 lots of bits.. :icon_mrgreen:

2 bobbins..one of which i have adapted as per bandika's..with the little 'L' shape brackets..

6 poles, magnets etc...and a steel bar...great..

@ psw..i know this has probabaly been asked a million times..but how do you measure the
ohms on the wire as you are winding it round a bobbin ....as you obviously dont want to scratch the enamel off the wire
till its right ?....and you dont wanrt to measure from the thick unused spool of wire?..hmmm... :icon_eek:

i know its probably something obvious and im just being a dummy...lol... :icon_redface:

i think i'm going in circles here though. The reason i was going to use 1 coil of the humbucker was because it already had a coil that was wrapped to 8k. If i was to take the coil off, would i not be basically wrapping the exact same thing?

Quote from: trad3mark on May 25, 2010, 06:21:10 AM
i think i'm going in circles here though. The reason i was going to use 1 coil of the humbucker was because it already had a coil that was wrapped to 8k. If i was to take the coil off, would i not be basically wrapping the exact same thing?

yeah i see what you mean...the only difference i can see with that is that the ones ive seen make the coil
a lot thinner..3mm..is what i have read...but yeah i dont see why not.. ???

i believe you need to use a thicker wire to about 200 turns to arrive at 8 ohms for the driver instead of pickup wire (thinner) to about 5000 turns or wahtever. this is based on reading psw's posts and threads. he's done alot of work on the idea and from what i understand of what i've read about it, pickup wire can't handle the current you need for the driver. but in the end it's not that hard to wind your own driver, 200 turrns of ???, not sure what guage wire...and you have to pot it with glue to keep the wire from moving and squeeling...
Again, this is not my findings but a few things i remember from reading the 'sustainer thread'. and psw's design ideas. thanks to psw for his work on this thing.

A sustainer driver coil's DC resistance is in the order of 4 thru 16 ohms  - note that's NOT 4k thru 16K ...ie we're talking single figure ohms, not thousands of ohms

The resistance you aim for, depends on the type of amp you use with your driver - a lot of folks wind their drivers to 8 ohms - for no other reason than a lot of IC audio amps are spec'ed to work with that particular load. (they should really wind just under, as the DC resistance doesn't into consideration AC signal impedance)

At 8k, your dismantled humbucker pickup is out by a magnitude of x1000!

You need to strip the wire off your bobbin & wind it with much thicker wire - enamelled copper wire diameter sizes 0.18mm thru 0.25mm will get you in the right zone.

This handy online pickup winding calculator will show you how many turns you need to wind, to get to your 8 ohms (just tweak to match your own bobbin dimensions)....

http://pickups.myonlinesite.com/pickup.php?unit=mm&cl=55&cw=5.8&ch=5&bw=12&bt=.8&ends=round&wd=.235&id=.25&show=on&avt=450&adj=ohms&avo=8

Quote from: Gurner on May 25, 2010, 06:41:10 AM
A sustainer driver coil's DC resistance is in the order of 4 thru 16 ohms  - note that's NOT 4k thru 16K ...ie we're talking single figure ohms, not thousands of ohms (the resistance you wind to, depends on the type of amp you use with your driver)

A lot of folks wind to 8 ohms - for no other reason than a lot of IC audio amps are spec'ed to work with that load.

At 8k, your dismantled humbucker pickup is out by a magnitude of x1000!

You need to strip the wire off your bobbin & wind it with much thicker wire - enamelled copper wire diameter sizes 0.18mm thru 0.25mm will get you in the right zone.

This handy online pickup winding calculator will show you how many turns you need to wind, to get to your 8 ohms (just tweak to match your own bobbin dimensions)....

http://pickups.myonlinesite.com/pickup.php?unit=mm&cl=55&cw=5.8&ch=5&bw=12&bt=.8&ends=round&wd=.235&id=.25&show=on&avt=450&adj=ohms&avo=8

hi. ok but how do i read the ohms on the wire while its being wound?..

without scratching off the enamel.etc...sorry for dumb question....?...cheers.rob.

To take a DC resistance reading of the coil, you have to scratch  the enamel coating (or burn it off with a soldering iron) ...which frankly is a faff.

Therefore I think it's better to use the calculator above - & just go for it. In that example for wire size of 0.235mm used, it says 165 turns - you therefore wind your coil counting up to 165! Don't snip off your wire from the feeding spool once you've got to 165, scratch off the enamel & take a DC resistance reading first!

(if in doubt, I'd say add a few turns at the end - as it's then easy to unwind a few turns off if your end DC resistance reading is too high)

And by the way, the reason pickup wire can't be used (current handling ability aside) is because you'd need a AC signal of several hundred volts across the coil it to get sufficient current through the coil  - not something your typical guitarists would want a few millimetres under his hands.

cool...cheers. i'll try that...rob.

Thanks...I'll lay off since my stalker from PG has decided to go off and do some actual development...I sincerely hope that something comes of it...EDIT: untrue to his word, he's still hanging around.

@trademark..

Thanks...and I am glad you have not been put off...

see this driver tutorial...

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211)

For measuring the wire, potting with glue is vital...avoid alternatives unless you are very familiar..the white PVA wood glue is fine and safe and cheap...it won't dry too fast, no fumes, cleans with water and does the job.

It can be easier if you do the driver lead wires (no need for shielded wires) and solder the start end...this will make it easier to get a reading from (especially with glue getting about. * ohms will be around 150 turns, but it depends a lot on the core size and winding style.

So...wind perhaps a hundred before reading. Have a bit of wet and dry paper to lightly take of the enamel without breaking the wire (the back of a knife is often good too to take off the enamel insulation) and read from the start to that point. You will likely need to wind more, the glue potting will easily heal the reading points. EDIT: Burning off insulation with a soldering iron is very ill advised, you wouldn't do that with plastic insulated wire I hope. Also, ill advised even to have the soldering iron about while winding with glue...wait till the coil is set.

Another tip, which you can see in the tutorial, is preparation. Have pre-cut some strips of PVC tape to the width of the bobbin (say 3mm) you are winding to...you will need this to hold it all together when finished and with glue on your hands and a coil able to unwind...you won't be able to cut it properly later.

It should take about 10 minutes by hand. Add glue to the inside of the bobbin and it will press out as you wind, every now and again add a little more. Also, have a stick or something to press the sides of the coil in as these will be looser then the ends as you wind. Perhaps even have some plastic or similar strips (that wont stick to the glue, perhaps some wood with PVC tape on it) that you can use to hold the finished PVC tape wrapped coil in tighter at the sides and perhaps some tape or something to clap these on overnight as the coil sets.

...

There has been some controversy over my "recommendation" of using wood glue for potting. It does not set rock hard, but plenty hard enough to dampen any vibrations and small gaps between the wires...is safe and easy to clean with water...and reversible. If you were wanting to take it apart and wind a different coil, easily removed for another go. Super glue is dangerous, drys much faster than the time need to wind and make a neat coil and has absolutely no filling qualities...in fact it shrinks as it drys potentially creating voids that could vibrate (though may appear to be rock hard on the surface) and possibly dissolve the enamel coating causing shorts. Trying to reverse such recommendations has been some of the battle in the last year or so.

I have used epoxies in recent times...but I had to go through a few to find some that are viscous enough and has a long setting rate, these are uncommon and expensive. I also have had some experience with epoxies from boat building in the past. The only reason to use such things is to make the self supporting coils like that on my tele or the wafer coils that have no permanent bobbins. When doing bobbined coils, I've still stuck to the PVA method and so continue to advise that.

...

So...there are no real "stupid" questions if people are genuinely trying to do it right. EDIT; there may be some stupid suggestions though i see. Thinking there is no difference between a standard pickup and my design is naive. Saying that the specs and dimensions are important for a coil of the correct characteristics to work with a small amplifier circuit...well, this thread is a good example. Having cleared up that a pickup is fine wire of thousands of ohms, they ignore the formula of 0.2mm wire and wind with 0.5mm wire...a completely different thing.

...

A couple of notes on this very simple design for the driver coil.

You are making an electronic component ~ an inductor. If you were following a schematic here for a circuit that required an inductor of a certain value or size or type...you would not expect to be able to just put in anything and expect it to work. The inductor is a vital part of the whole enterprise, and although unusual, not at all hard really to do by hand...cross over guys have been doing it for decades.

Although the wires are not "magnetic" being copper, once you send an AC current through it to make an electromagnetic device that has a change or states as fast as the vibrations of the string frequencies...these too will be driven if there is any possibility of vibrating. Causing all kinds of problems, decreased efficiency, screaming (even the coil itself may make a noise), heat and creating all kinds of stray EMI signals that can get into the pickup driving it.

The potting side of this then is a vital part and extremely necessary. The only way to do it effectively and solidly is with glue, and to wind with the glue. Seems a little odd, and perhaps messy, but it is the easiest way, and water based glue means no harm done.

If the coil does not quite reach 8 ohms, don't panic. Some of mine have been around 7.5 ohms and been fine. I even did a 7 ohm one by accident and it worked..and up to 8.5ohms...but i would err on the lower side from experience.

As you wind the ohms will build very gradually, don't even bother till say 80 turns with 0.2mm wire...but be ware, as the coil builds, the core size builds and the resistance measurement will rise ever more rapidly...so towards the end you will need to take more measurements...the glue will cover the points as I say.

I've not wound to an HB bobbin, these are a little smaller than your average SC bobbin, but not much. Generally there is extra space, you will unlikely need to fill to the edge of even the 3mm space unless the sides of your windings are really loose. As I say, occasionally push the sides in and wind over and clamp tight while setting with the windings taped over and left overnight.

Avoid the temptation of using a machine. It should seriously only take you 10 minutes or so and hand winding allows you to ensure good glue penetration...it probably works out quicker than a machine or setting the bobbin in a drill or anything like that.

hope that helps...most people have found that with the right care and attention that they will get a device that will sustain all the strings.

...

Perhaps when you reach that stage, you will be encouraged to look further into making more refined circuits to get the kind of responses that you are seeking. There are many circuits developed here for instance that can easily be adapted to this kind of thing. In my own development of such things, the Aussie mart compressor for instance, also using an LM386 base was a big influence on how adaptable the LM386 can be. Col's forward feed circuit may also be of interest, designed for this application. Recently Col suggested tweaking the zobel network with a higher capacitor for such drivers.

You may also be encouraged to look further into driver designs. Mine is an old, simple but proven formula. I have continued to pursue it because it a) works and b) meets my other criteria (low mod, very compact, simple and effective). For instance there is a camp that used two coils like an HB...this would be a different formula of course...you could I suppose make one out of a whole HB. The main idea is to limit the EMI with opposing polarity coils (just like an HB cancels out noise). Most commercial sustainers have this kind or variation (like a bi-lateral driver) and my single coil drivers are again, in that way unique and more akin to the eBow approach.

However, I have some reservations...they undoubtably work. With a single coil and compact "thin depth winding", the idea is to limit the EMI to as small a space as practicable, right under the string where it is needed. So, minimal depth and width keeping the influence of EMI to the source pickup contained. A bigger driver introduces all kinds of problems to this...even with canceling properties of such a design.

Further, large drivers generally introduce the possibility of phase problems...hence all the commercial units require tricky phase correction circuitry. Additionally, large drivers often preclude the normal placement and operation of the neck pickup. Many don't find this a concern, and I have done most of the work it would seem in multi-pickup guitar installations and the problems with that (bypass switching). Obviously, if you only have the bridge pickup in the guitar and a driver, all you need do is switch power on to the circuit to operate the thing.

However, there are some, chiefly Col, who have pursued the dual coil idea and there may well be some advantages still to come of that, these things are in development right now I believe. For me, the simple designs have been effective and have endured and many, many of them have been successfully built...even with the F/R circuit and particularly with the 1 - 8 pin cap and trimmer and the 100uF output cap instead of the 220uF. If you don't mind switches on the guitar, you may even consider switching between these caps as the response and sound can be quite different.

As I had been trying to get across...if in performance you find that the dynamic range of the guitar is too much...running the guitar through a compressor will tame things down...a distortion of course generally squashes things nicely and makes the guitar sing. The general aim though is to be capable of producing clean sustain. (think of the tune "with or without you" by U2, using one of  Micheal Brooks guitars I believe, though often said to be an eBow...fernandes guitars are now used live).

However, if you have a mind to try some AGC, the principle is much the same...it certainly is an area to explore. I have  ;)

Running effects through the drive circuit, for uber tweakers, generally is disappointing. I have an old boss 'slow gear' and such an auto volume might be a cool thing. similarly, filters can have interesting effects, might be interesting to try something like an auto wha. For effects hounds, the sustainer opens up venues on the guitar to exploit extremely long sweeps of filters, flanger and other such devices...but not that rewarding in the drive the physical string.

...

I have found that the driver has consistently been the thing that puts most people off, not the circuit...but really it is just a 'different' thing to do for people used to solely soldering in components. There are also some unusual challenges. The whole "system" is finely balanced. Many people have thought that with enough power, any coil will work, but this is not the case. Or that there are vibratiosn of a poorly made coil to spec, and that adding power will help things. The idea is to get the effect desired with the minimum possible power required...more power generally means more distortion and EMI effects such as "fizz" caused by the source pickup sensing the drivers output...to all out squealing.

It is also deceptively simple and admit that I arrived at it through trial and error. Different wire and coil sizes tried to get what I found to work best with pretty straight amp circuits. This was the entire aim, that no one else had done it, nor come up with a superior formula in all this time is a testament to it regardless of how it was arrived at. However, it's simplicity and my openness about it seems to make people underestimate it. I have of course made many different driver designs over the years, hex drivers, bi-lateral drivers, dual blade compact HB drivers...but I have consistently returned to this basic formula and set of criteria for my own use.

My main guitar for instance is this one...http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=37370&hl=blueteleful (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=37370&hl=blueteleful)...though I am building a new one at the moment...

This is the driver and circuit...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/SMparts5.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/SMparts6.jpg)

you can see that although the coil is self supporting, it is a basic ordinary 3mm steel core and a 3mm high coil of 0.2mm wire with 4 craft magnet ceramics at the bottom. In line with my "criteria" for such devices...the driver simply sticks to the pick-guard with double sided tape, the circuit fits under the bridge pickup and the switching and the battery fits into the unmodified extremely tight standard tele control cavity...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/teleblue5.jpg)

These are important aspects that my critics always over look. I work to an extensive list of criteria, not just performance. I don't just make circuits, I make these whole instruments. So, it is important for me to retain the neck pickup and choices of pickup (commercial units and most elaborate DIY versions do not)...it is important that the circuit be tiny (you can imagine how small this thing would be in SMD)...it is actually important to me to retain the dynamic range of the instrument...so it does sound and react like a really alive loud guitar. That's not for everyone, it can be tamed, it isn't the easiest thing to play...but it certainly sustains on all strings and produces an enormous range of harmonics.

The biggest criticisms most have with things like the fernandes and the like is that they are too tame; don't sound or feel like a loud guitar. I never aimed to replicate their performance. I have tested mine head to head with a sustainiac...the board in it was at least 4x the size. I'm not suggesting mine is "better", it is different...I personally quite like it, the owner of the gem custom, quite like mine. That's all cool.

I've put up sound clips years ago, and found in this thread, specifically so that people would not be mislead as I was accused of, of what such a simple system can do and sounds like. Also, I can categorically, and have stated, exactly what was in the original...a simple preamp and LM386 circuit pretty much straight off the data sheet with a 100uF cap on the output. And posted again the original demos of that guitar. So, and with verification by many who have used it, I can truthfully say I have not used RoG circuits, and suggest putting back the stabilization caps they omitted from the data sheets...that i would not expect and people have reported, much the same performance to be expected.

...

I apologize for my lack of patience in recent times on this subject and some others on a few forums. I have been effectively stalked and constrained from supporting people with this project and much of the information closed, or removed because of the kind of stuff leveled at me in a sustained gesture for the last 18 months.

I have also been suffering the flu, but anyone familiar with me, will know that I will vigorously defend against the unacknowledged use of my work...but mostly, against this ridiculous idea that I should or am in anyway be obliged to divulge anything I want to, and in particular more advanced ideas that is entirely my own work above what I have already freely given...a working simple proven and verified project.

People should also be aware that this design dates back to 2004...so that is a long time ago now. Personally, I have moved onto some other projects of course, and actively play the guitar. I'd suggest that it is rare for anyone to be so active in their completed work, and so giving of my time (resented or not by some) after so many years. After all, what really is in it for me...notoriety in a few obscure guitar forums...it wouldn't impress you wife, GF or loved ones...what do people really think I crave credibility in?

But, I appreciate that people continue to make these things and my design has stuck with it and so continue to give back. Many people had a great part in it's development, especially the late Lovekraft from this forum, and without those people, I dare say, like many before me...I probably would not have even gotten this simple version off the ground and still bogged down puzzling over the patents instead of finding another way. And for anyone thinking to go their "own way"...I'd encourage you to consider the eBow and ask why cant the same kind of simple thing work for a sustainer...then look at my simple design, with the same kind of respect. Elegant, simple, works...potential for the DIY'er to tweak to their hearts content and really exploit the potential of this fascinating technology....good luck and enjoy...pete

EDIT: PS...beware the dreaded calculator boffins...especially from people who have not done this. They are rarely if ever right, you will need to take readings, they are a guide at best...it is true that it should be about 165 turns...but just go by the readings as the wiring style and the bobbin can make a bit of a difference and you are going to need to do it anyway.

@Gurner...if you are so adept at electronics...why on earth come around here suggesting people take a soldering iron to heat resistant enameled wire while they are winding with glue...how about you make something that you can sensibly advise on and stick to your guns and "faff" off like you said you would instead of spreading bad and false information about a project you have not built and clearly have no respect for?

Also...the wire gauge is not 0.235mm...this is again significantly bigger than 0.2mm...think a little about the geometry at work in that...as the wire diameter increases, the amount of copper in it dramatically increases...you are greatly misleading people by using 0.235mm even to calculate turns...cut it out.

Here's an idea...instead of hijacking this thread based on my design ideas...how about you make your own thread about your own far more original ideas. I take it your not using my driver design, I certainly hope not. Oh, or are you still too shy to admit that you joined here less than a month ago to secretly build your own umm "widget", and then spend most of your time having a go at me...come on

Gurner, unless you have first hand knowledge, the idea of using a soldering iron to strip any insulated wire or to rely on calculators or to advise anyone on things you have apparently no experience in...is a disgrace...any one here should immediately know that I hope.

I am sincerely trying to help, you committed yourself to go away...I sincerely hope that you do exactly that so I can dedicate my time to actually helping people succeed, instead of you sabotaging their efforts with such ridiculous nonsense...

If there is anyone on this forum who thinks that stripping insulation is ok with a soldering iron, this project is not for you...and see my previous assessment of the majority of builders that I had started to think I had misjudged.

I am afraid if such stupid interjections continue, I will not be able to offer the advice from a person who has actually succeeded in this project and leave it to the likes of Gurner to watch you fail and then say "I told you so" as he laughs at me from the wings. He has his own agenda, has followed me here from PG and has apparently no experience in such things...and some bad advice that suggests his bravado at even making simple circuits is unfounded...let alone his ambitions to be a designer in this technology. So...take a hike Gurner...start your own thread if you like...do not sabotage others projects as has been done at PG...and quit hounding me...

Quote from: psw on May 25, 2010, 07:53:34 AM
@Gurner...if you are so adept at electronics...why on earth come around here suggesting people take a soldering iron to heat resistant enameled wire while they are winding with glue...how about you make something that you can sensibly advise on and stick to your guns and "faff" off like you said you would instead of spreading bad and false information about a project you have not built and clearly have no respect for?

Gurner, unless you have first hand knowledge, the idea of using a soldering iron to strip any insulated wire or to rely on calculators or to advise anyone on things you have apparently no experience in...is a disgrace...any one here should immediately know that I hope.

It´s enough for me PSW ! I´m really tired of reading, reading, reading and reading, words, words, words, pages, pages and pages of the similar things ! I really love sustainers and electronics, but this fight is intolerable !.  Gurner is not talking to you ! He´s giving his point of view about the driver, he noticed that the other DIYer said 8K instead of 8 ohms ! He was the first to say that, not you...  And who says that he´ll use glue while winding that driver ? He can wind and then use hot paraffin (candle´s wax) like some pickups.

Quote from: psw on May 25, 2010, 07:53:34 AM
If there is anyone on this forum who thinks that stripping insulation is ok with a soldering iron, this project is not for you...and see my previous assessment of the majority of builders that I had started to think I had misjudged.

These words offends me ! I´m 43 years old and developt digital hardware for more than 20 years and sometimes have to make inductors to test power supply designs, and use a soldering iron to stripp the insulation, a good one with temp regulation, and NEVER, repite NEVER had a problem.  If you haven´t the appropiate soldering iron or don´t know how to use it, please continue with your method but DON´T INSULT MY KNOWLEGDE AND OTHERS !

I haven´t nothing against you nor your point of view about sustainers and your unique designs but sometimes...

Please don´t take it personal.

Ah, for those who wants to test another electronic circuit, try this one, don´t use the famous LM386 but the video shows that works well.

http://freespace.virgin.net/e.macdonald/susdriver009/sustainer.htm

or this (originaly in french, translated by Google) :

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://strib.fr/%3Fp%3D46&sl=fr&tl=en

Quote from: deadastronaut on May 25, 2010, 06:29:12 AM

Quote from: trad3mark on May 25, 2010, 06:21:10 AM
i think i'm going in circles here though. The reason i was going to use 1 coil of the humbucker was because it already had a coil that was wrapped to 8k. If i was to take the coil off, would i not be basically wrapping the exact same thing?

yeah i see what you mean...the only difference i can see with that is that the ones ive seen make the coil
a lot thinner..3mm..is what i have read...but yeah i dont see why not.. ???

Ok, so i've some free time today, and here's where i stand. Maybe someone who has had success with one of these can clarify some things before i set this up for prototype. EXCITED!!!

my theory seems ready for circuitry. It's the coil from a humbucker with the screws for polepieces. I figured that in the event that some strings are more responsive to the sustainer than others, the height of the individual pieces can be adjusted. awesome.

Now, next up is my plan for testing. I've a big breadboard, where i'll build the ruby amp, unless someone can suggest something better. I don't have the LM386, so i'm going to have to try it with a TL071. should be ok really...

One thing i noticed is that one crucial point that seems to repeatedly come up is the coil height of 3mm. Could be an issue here, maybe not. The coil height on this is 5.5mm. If my old physics knowledge is correct, that means that there might be less sustain, as the field will be sort of spread out, and not as strong. This, i anticipate. My plan of action is to build the driver with the one coil, and see how close the driver needs to be to my guitar to get sustain. I have an ebow to compare results with. So what happens if it has to be pretty close? Well I was thinking i could always use the second coil too in that case. Effectively making two drivers of lower strength, instead of one strong one.

It all sounds great in theory, but, before i actually go and try it, I want to make sure i get my wiring order correct.

So, Am i right in saying:
Driver will have 2 wires coming from it. A Coil start and a coil end. One of these wires goes to ground. The other goes to the output of the Ruby amp? I'm not sure what the connection between the ruby and the driver is. Clarification on this would be awesome.

Very excited to try this. I'm sure someone could help me clear up these issues. Cheers all! EEEE!

Geez, what is it about sustainer threads that gets everyone's panties all up in a bunch?!  :icon_rolleyes:

I admire psw's patience. I've read a lot of the original PG thread and even chimed in once in a while. I know he has put a LOT of time and effort into it. And puts up with a lot of BS from naysayers and trolls.  :icon_smile:

Some people, who I will leave anonymous but should be obvious to most, just don't know when to stop. I don't like seeing all the mud slinging going on here, it's all very counterproductive, you know?  :icon_confused:

@andronico

Quote from: Gurner on May 15, 2010, 02:17:51 PM
Hehe - I agree it seems puzzling how can a thread run that long & still (apparently) not even have an agreed basic circuit in the tutorials? I see a degree of repetition wrt the Fetzer Ruby being used, but never anybody actually coming right on out & affirming - "yep, the Fetzer Ruby is the best in class for a basic sustainer" ...which frankly in the light of 300+ page thread, is a little underwhelming.

What Gurner wasn't disclosing in this forum which he just joined...is that he came here specifically to explore making an alternative sustainer thread and apparently to pursue me in by far the majority of threads. He also recently made a commitment to leave this thread that he hijacked and go elsewhere. He has no work to show, and apparently no expertise in this subject...or desire to help.

...

Sorry, but you have it wrong...the above was Gurners first post, late in the day, and deteriorated from there to further express his personal opinion and directed towards me...

suregork was the fist to simply answer the OP's dilemma succinctly on the 2nd post. Also...

I was alerted to the thread and contributed the same on the first page in an attempt to help...however, the OP continued to have problems...I'didn't turn up until post 18 in an attempt t help.

You turned up at thread 18 not answering that question and not pointing out that the OP's use of pickup wire at 8K ohms would not work, and that an inductor wound with 0.5 wire would create an inductor completely different from on wound on 0.2mm...which of course with your "plea to authority" (apparently yours...and your age is also immaterial, I am older than you, so what?) logical fallacy  ...you would of course know but failed to point out when you first contributed to this thread.

andronico, your contribution was to simply say that you didn't like the LM386 chip...that's nice, all kinds of chips will work...not exactly useful or contributing anything to the problem at hand. Your latest contribution is to again repeat this, though it is a little disturbing.

...

So...I eventually turned up with a post to help and links to appropriate threads with pictorial of exactly how to do it.

The OP was greatful for my contribution and got the correct wire...but still had problems...still before Gurners unwelcome interjections...

Quotethank you very much for this answer with a lot of details !!

i've made my first try with my ferrite driver. It works quite well.
I did it with 0.2 mm²  wire as you said.
The only problem i have is with the high E string.
Something weird happen too. I could'nt check the impedance with my multimeter...
It gave me strange values....i've made around 175 turns and i check sevral time the resistance.
Here i'm around 16 ohm not kohm but ohms with 175 turns. Ive check my multimeter and it's ok working fine with known restance.

Can you work out why he might have been having problems...why then didn't you with so much inductor knowledge not chime in?

This is what the OP was thinking...

QuoteI was thinking of my resistance problem
Maybe my wire is bad ? The enamel is perhaps bad....
I've changing values...

This was my answer...

QuoteReading the resistance of a coil should be no different from reading that of a resistor. The enamel insulation needs to be well stripped and your probes clean to get a good consistent reading, an appropriate setting on the meter for low ohms is also required of course. This has been the problem for me when such things occur. The glue potting also can cause problems with making a good reading. The actual insulation enamel makes little to no difference, any loss of enamel occasionally in reading will be re-insulated by the glue potting. That sized roll of wire should make a couple of the things I think...it's much as I used to use.

That's right, we are winding in Glue, hence it is likely that the glue was causing false readings even though the OP probably did strip the wires.

Now...you have experience in using a soldering iron on enamel and wet PVA insulated wire? If so, you would know that the PVA would burn, potentially giving conduction and adding a film that may conduct and give you a false reading. Yet, if you actually have wound such inductors with glue, and you had contributed earlier with an opinion on amp chips...why then did YOU not point this out since you seem to know so much better than me?

...

As for Gurner...I have already pointed out that he joined here on April 30, he at that time contributed 18 posts in total...12 of which were on this thread, OT, Hijacked and entirely directed at me. He also appears to be from PG or a lot of interest in it, and would know as most here pointed out at the start of this thread...where you had already posted and read...that all sustainer threads had closed because of this behaviour. The behaviour here has repeated.

Further, none of his information was helpful or based on any practical experience. But it gets worse, he started threads about vague phase correction calculations and help finding an op-amp...for some "widget" that he would not reveal...though his posts here make it pretty obvious that it is in fact a sustainer. So, he has an agenda and has leveled personal attacks on me...sorry, but you are mistaken on both points.

But let the OP explain it...

Quotei've found where the probleme where.
I used crocodie type wire to connect my multimeter and burn the enameled to remove it.
That's bad !!

Oh...yes, benfox...you don't need 20 years in DSP to know that's BAD...well done!

...

Yes...you can push the alternatives...but the use of CA glue is extremely bad advice...

(http://freespace.virgin.net/e.macdonald/susdriver009/Photo-0037.jpg)

Not only that, both have an association, this one in particular a notorious association with the PG stuff. If you read that you will see that he does not specify the wire gauge. However, elsewhere...he forcefully suggested that this original concept, though admittedly lifted from me, was his own and I had no rights to it. He suggested the use of an amp chip (also previously known to be used by me) and a primitive stock 741 (now theres a good old chip) was sufficiently different a circuit, for him to go on to claim that the entire design was his own, concept and all (which is clear prior art) and know acknowledgment was warranted. He further claimed, and you will note there is no mention of the actual wire gauge required...that "any wire gauge will work"...however it transpired that he actually used 0.2mm wire wound to exactly my specifications.

And of course, as I have always pointed out...any amp circuit, buffered to prevent loading, would potentially work. Well, why don't I use the 7052 if I've tried it. Because...it has overheating shut of and what this person didn't tell you is that his circuit shut down to protect itself regularly through overheats...so, you may not like the LM386, it is antiquated...but please, make yourself more aware of the characteristics of such amps before you chip in first (and OT) with "I don't like the LM386" and now tacitly suggesting an alternative that has known problems in this application.

...

The french site guy, Strib...also has a long association with the PG original thread. Who's driver does that remind you of? Yes, an exact unacknowledged copy, right down to the rail of my design. Again...just recover the wire from an old transformer...but the truth as it transpired was I believe that in the end he used the 0.2mm (there have been a few of these guys pop up in the last 18 months).

He did use the F/R as shown...but he wasn't happy. In fact, Strib was never happy...he didn't use the prescribed formula often and felt the answer was simply to put more power through it (resulting in many EMI problems). He chose to use the 820M chip because he couldn't get results with the lower powered LM386 F/R and similar. He also like everyone else of such ilk...just "designed" this circuit cribbed from Bob Blick and the 820 data sheet...no specifics for sustainer function...creating a much larger power hungry amplifier circuit in an effort to overcome his perceptions that the problems he had were due to insufficient power.

This is exactly what Gurner has consistently pushing at me of course in this thread...that I ripped off RoG. The F/R was suggested by someone else with permission (so there is no rip off, how many of you guys even ask?) but he knows that my circuits are my own work, not cribbed off of others. That's Gurners beef after all...that I won't give him my newer circuit designs!!!!! Keep Up!!

However, he "cheated" in his demos. There is so much distortion that it disguises the fact that he his upping of power strategy was causing EMI distortions. Even though it proves yet again that this design can work reasonably well (In stribs case, just not cleanly as can be achieved with a efficient driver with less power spreading less EMI effects to the source pickup). You did check out the demo's, yes?

...

You may well have good intentions pushing alternatives, but a poor knowledge of this threads history, or the overall politics involved. Both of these links are related to recent event and have problems. Both are not particularly helpful to the people I am trying to help, provides poor and insufficient information. You have grossly misrepresented Gurners involvement.

I'm sorry if you are offended, but burning off insulation is not a good strategy, especially when there is the involvement of glues...PVA may be safe enough, but most likely going to cause problems with reading by your method. If you had read this thread (which you had contributed to flaccidly before me) you would know that with all your "expertise" you did and continue to offer little besides that you personally, are not fond of the LM386. I've made it quite clear that the LM386 amps are not compulsory to the project...but all the people I am trying to help have chosen to take this route already.

If you had read the relatively succinct replies from the start of the thread, which I felt compelled to point out,...you would see that the OP found that your method was "exactly" the diagnosis for his problems...yet, you remained silent then, and repeat this bad advice now.

So...can we dispense with the bad advice, and help these guys succeed in what they are trying to do?

Now Gurner made a commitment to leave this thread...but still he remains!

Now...having put that to rest...OH NO>>>

Gurner I am reminded has also already been told in his own thread about not trusting online calculators...but he has convinced himself that all this can be worked out with the software, instead of just build one...as people here are trying to do...so I will try to address the more rewarding concerns of those actually doing something and hope the peanut gallery keeps out of it...unless they have something useful to impart...yes?...No?...

OK...

...

Thanks Paul...it is trying...I will try and sort out the ridiculous bad advice, side tracks and bad advice that is continuing to spew forth in posts like above, and then see if we can undo this with some more practical advice for the people who are actually doing this...from someone who has actually done it many many times...and the originator of the design...don't care how old you are (I'm older) or your time futzing with unrelated DSP technology...this should be simple.

....

Oh...for goodness sake...Gurner...

QuoteA sustainer driver coil's DC resistance is in the order of 4 thru 16 ohms  - note that's NOT 4k thru 16K ...ie we're talking single  figure ohms, not thousands of ohms ...

a lot of folks wind their drivers to 8 ohms - for no other reason than a lot of IC audio amps are spec'ed to work with that particular load. (they should really wind just under, as the DC resistance doesn't into consideration AC signal impedance)

What a load of CRAP!!!

Folks do not wind their drivers to 8 ohms just because that's what the chip wants as a load. The do it because a coil wound to my specifications (thin 3mm deep and with 0.2mm wire) will produce a coil with the appropriate characteristics to work with simple amplification (creating some inate AGC restrictions btw) within the range of the guitar TO WORK as specified.

Impedance will of course change with frequency. The reason that the commercial units need to compensate for phase, is because their drivers, radically different and far bigger with more turns and huge cores...do not work without it. Hence THE WHOLE POINT OF THE/MY DESIGN!!! How many times must this be pointed out to you!!!

Why don't you get these things?

An inductor, wound with the same wire and form and core to twice the resistance...even if driven by a chip designed for a 16 ohm load (the LM386 will drive 16 too...or 4...but that is NOT the design)...will have radically different characteristics.

The driver is a vital part of the "circuit" or system...are you seriously saying that if you saw an inductor in a circuit, you could advise another with half to twice the resistance (let alone the unknown resonance, inductance and lag nature of the thing) and it WOULDN'T MATTER?

Will you PLEASE...go away and do some work. I am not saying that alternative drivers will not work of course, I've made many, others too...there are many patents and commercial examples. We are talking about this design of MINE...not hypotheticals out of your inexperienced mind Gurner.

This is all extremely poor intellectually, technically and advice destined to confuse and NOT WORK as described. If people don't see this, see my previous generalization. It has been forcefully and repeatedly put to me that this forum is far superior than PG and that the people populating it are far more knowledgeable and experienced (but clearly not older, not that it matters) than me. Yet, the things put here are rediculous. And now...we are back to the original OP's equiry...oh, do I ahve to wind a coil...I thought I could just use half a pickup. For goodness sake people.

I linked to tutorialsd, pictorials and even cited Primals work with HB pickups. His posts (sans pictures) are in that linked tutorial. This is not new, or hard. In Fact, primals worked stright out of the box on my design and the guy had very little experience, none in circuit building (though his dad helped with the circuit board I believe) and none (like most of us) with coil winding. He also was the first to strip an HB coil and make it in this way...though I had proven with the sustainer box on my own LP that there was no reason for it not to work...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/LPSustainer.jpg)

You know Paul...I ahve no idea why it is that something as simple and clear cut as this attracts such people, has been poluted in recent years with misinformation, bloating and then closing if not removing all information.

The original thread was purely a development discussion about a huge range of devices and approaches. It was not for "instruction" but discussion. The tutorials were presented to aid with the basic working designs primarily of mine. Why this is so hard to "get" I simply don't know.

Besides all the indignant hype here, the reality is that most people are young (possibly) and inexperienced, but as Primal and many others have shown, this is a very simple device as presented by me. And...if you properly follow the very simple instructions...it nearly always works as described.

Now...that people don't seem to appreciate the difference between 8 and 8k ohms is testament to that. But...worse, this is common enough...it was the exact problem that started this thread and easily answered. As was that burning off the insulation with a soldering iron was the problem too...and BAD (according not only to me but the OP who correctly diagnosed the problem)...all of which is ignored.

Now...in recent times I have had this presented to me...

OH...for goodness sake...trad3mark...you already had all this explained to you, and the tutorials at PG on May 14...part of your response...

Quotelooks like i would have to buy stuff for this then. That sucks, cos it totally delays it by a while.

You already know that you can't use a pickup as a driver, not even half a pickup...are you really sure you are capable of doing this if you can't follow the simple tutorials already provided to you? Do you really think the advice would change?

Now...waht I was looking for...this guys thread was as usually completely hijacked...he was having problems...I as usual asked to see this thing he was working on...not till page three did he admit to using super glue completely contrary to advice and resulting in a coil that not only emitted a squeal for the loose windings (He may also be the guy who originally used playdoh...or was he also the guy who asked...well I thought I'd just use pickup wire, but it keeps breaking, but it's ok...i TIED the ends together...now I can't get a reading off it!), but also...eventually...came back with some of his work...

(http://imagefruity.com/images/16481232559380802231.jpg)

If you think playdoh is appropriate, if you think that tying wires together without soldering will work...if you consider the above wiring style to be sufficient and can't follow the simplest instructions and one to one help...this and possibly electronics generally...IS NOT FOR YOU.



....



@deadastronaut

I'm sorry, this thread is so out of control I think I am mixing you and Trad3mark up as you are working on similar things...

@trad3mark

Did you not read the original posts on this thread...you can't use a pickup coil as a driver coil. And, Gurners advice is pointless. He has not made one and is leading people off the design that has proven to work.

I really think that most of the questions have been answered already on this thread...please refer to the original materials, I am happy to answer proper questions put to me directly as always...but this is getting impossible to work with...

...

the short answer above was what I originally thought would suffice. If someone would like to convince me that this forum inherently have superior knowledge and skills...as a general rule...I really think the evidence here completely betrays that.

You know what...go ahead, brn that PVA...stick 100 watts through a pickup coil...think that any wire to any resistance is good as another...don't like the 386...fine, did I say use a 386...no, I said a small amplifier, an LM386 is a typical and known choice.

Do not use super glue...above all I have tried to keep people safe..CA glue is extremely toxic both on the hands but especially to breath (and winding a coil with it you will inhale a lot, which might explain some of these people) and it has not the properties desired for potting a coil anyway. So, stay safe...but you know...if the most basic of concepts and instructions are beyond you...just don't bother, consider another hobby...learn to play the guitar perhaps.

Yes Paul, I don't know why...but I am so very tired of this.

Gurner...go start you own thread...andronico...go check your sources, and read the beginning of the thread why don't you...and if you really do have the knowledge about glue potted coils...why not partake something useful instead of leading people with false and potentially very harmful leads?

...

If people want proper advice and can follow it...and the tutorials are not enough...

then...I can of course be contacted directly without the peanut gallery and most have found this to be far more beneficial.

If people continue to give bad advice as has been the hallmark here, I will of course attempt to correct it...but clearly this thread has no point and much misleading and simply bad information...and really, no one has even read the first page apparently...even those contributing to it!

PSW : sorry, sorry and sorry.  You are older than me and this is enough to me, my father said me when I was a child than I have to respect older people. I don´t think in your way but really I haven´t anything against you.  Please sorry again.

Age has nothing to do with it...stupidity has. Please review your posts in line with the first thread and your advice about burning insulation off off of glue potted coils with a soldering iron and your recommendations of alternative chips for projects you are not familiar with.

You brought up age, knowing full well that such a thing was never an "issue" except in your mind to suggest by that you knew better. You clearly, in this matter, do not...nor did you address any of the concerns that you claim to have experience in from page 1 of this thread, before I ever was alerted to contribute.

I think you can see now, that contrary to your view, and the large number of very knowledgeable people on this forum...the overall and general level is particularly low and so I stand by my original generalization.

I have reported this thread to the moderators as contributions such as yours are OT, pointless, misleading and linked to a known DANGEROUS procedure that has proved also generally not effective.

Please do not assume your experience with DSP or your age which you felt compelled to tell me before all else has any bearing on anything and please, if trying to discuss things in future, refrain from mentioning your age as your primary, initial "qualification" for knowing anything about anything. You must surely know that this is intellectually bankrupt strategy, much like those also here...and your pointless condescending reply.

The OP had already diagnosed himself that exactly what you were advocating was the cause of his problems. Few will have access to "solder thru" winding wire, use of a soldering iron to strip insulation on any wire (would you advocate it on plastic insulated stranded wire too?) is extremely poor advice and unprofessional practice.

If you actually do have knowledge of conductor qualities, it would have, and still may well be nice if you confirmed that wire gauge, number of turns, core and all manner of coil qualities radically change the characteristics of an inductor and it's function in a circuit...and particularly a "circuit" like this where the inductor is the key to producing a driving force at a specific range of frequencies and application.

Think you could manage that?...or does your extensive knowledge of inductors extend only to the bad advice cleared up on the first page or two and in direct contradiction to your own!

psw, who are you directing your post to?

Again PSW, sorry. Please.

Aron...this thread has deteriorated  and hijacked preventing decent advice to be given.

Poor advice that the OP found to be exactly the problem has been partaken. Condescending referrals to my age, when the person above used it as his main "authority" for burning off wire insulation...and the patent 'stalking' by new member Gurner of me on this thread, mis information...and completely off topic.

Further, linking to known 'rip offs' of my design...include bad circuits and in fact...DANGEROUS PROCEDURES advising the use of CA glue.

All I can do here is defend the original design and correct the massive amounts of poor, mis-guided and potentially dangerous advice and a whole slew of personal attacks and asides...while I attempt to help people with very little experience with a project which I devised and was alerted to come here to answer by the forum itself.

I've also been accused of "ripping off" RoG. The circuit being built and posted by someone else in the tutorial was used with permission and I have no association with it. I have categorically never "ripped off" anyone.

Informed advice can therefore not be given in such an environment and given the appalling history in recent times on this subject at PG...and even here at times in the past to some extent...and I object to this kind of behaviour and targeting of myself apparently as I attempt to help people with something that should be quite simple really.

But...I do find that much of the contributions have been far below the standard expected of such a place, and certainly the continual and now condescending and intellectually bankrupt and potentially dangerous links...to be a disgrace and a personal insult and offensive.

Quote from: Paul Marossy on May 25, 2010, 03:31:46 PM
Geez, what is it about sustainer threads that gets everyone's panties all up in a bunch?!  :icon_rolleyes:

I admire psw's patience. I've read a lot of the original PG thread and even chimed in once in a while. I know he has put a LOT of time and effort into it. And puts up with a lot of BS from naysayers and trolls.  :icon_smile:

Some people, who I will leave anonymous but should be obvious to most, just don't know when to stop. I don't like seeing all the mud slinging going on here, it's all very counterproductive, you know?  :icon_confused:

I draw your attention to posts like this which know more of the situation in the last 18 months and repeated here, following me to continue from another forum where this kind of thing was closed down largely with over a year of needless stress and convolution.

See also several other posts in this tread including TELEFUNKTON and Peter Moore, long time and respected member who too know more of the history...

I am simply appalled....and so should anyone seeking help with this project, or with an interest in the integrity and reputation of this forum.

Quote from: psw on May 25, 2010, 06:10:04 PM
Further, linking to known 'rip offs' of my design...include bad circuits and in fact...DANGEROUS PROCEDURES advising the use of CA glue.

But...I do find that much of the contributions have been far below the standard expected of such a place, and certainly the continual and now condescending and intellectually bankrupt and potentially dangerous links...to be a disgrace and a personal insult and offensive.

Sorry about the links, internet is a free world where people show things and put information, sometimes useful and sometimes not.  I didn´t know that these people had ripped off your designs. I´m sorry to hear that.
About if these sites are dangerous, not really, not more dangerous than use a soldering iron in a bad way.  You can damage a finger with a tool like a cutter or something like that if you don´t know how to use it.  The site is not dangerous itself. I don´t like CA glue like you, I prefer hot wax, like pick ups. It´s more safe and more clean too.
The idea to show these links was to give the option to try another circuit than the usual LM386´s one.  If the design of the driver is exactly like yours (I ssume that because it´s ripped from you) better !, people can make one simple driver and test it with three different circuits in order to compare and choose which is better to their taste.  All of us win with this situation !

Quotepsw@deadastronaut

I'm sorry, this thread is so out of control I think I am mixing you and Trad3mark up as you are working on similar things...

...

no worries ."..

.......its a great project that inspires passion....
and sometimes heat!... :icon_rolleyes:



cheers rob.

I've explained that CA glue is not safe...it is not a preference. getting it on your fingers is bad enough (and not safe, just imagine these kids touching an eye from the fumes with hands as shown)...but the fumes alone are extremely toxic and damaging to the brain. Also, the fumes themselves can severely damage the eyes. It is in fact DANGEROUS.

It is not the equivalent of using a soldering iron in an inappropriate way as you suggested and had already been diagnosed as THE problem for the OP...unless you are in the habit of inserting said iron into a mains transformer with the power on? That's simply facetious, and I suggest you go consult your father for some more pithy comebacks before you make such allegories again.

...

I realize that you were pushing alternative circuits...you said so from your first post...however you failed to answer the OP's question which in no way related to circuitry. I again, suggest you review the actual thread. Likewise your support of the clear trolling of Gurner, again false, the question was answered in page one. You jumped on Gurner, et al's, alternative circuit propaganda though it had been shut down at length and was way OT.

...

Also, it is not unsafe to use a soldering iron to strip enameled wire, but that coating is a tough plastic and this is not a good way of doing it. Also, it is clearly inappropriate in this application where there is a proliferation of water based glue. You surely can see that burning such materials is quite likely to build a carbon film and as such create a resistance that will give false readings. It was suggested by me and correctly diagnosed as THE problem the OP was having in the first pages...you failed to take note, and turned it on me. I suggest for the reason given in this oparagraph, that it is ill advised in any application...you may want to review your methods with this in mind.

...

I appreciate your apologies, but none of your posts addressed the questions trying in vein to be answered, chiefly by myself...no one but you and Gurner really were pushing the circuitry aspects, all the legit posts were in trying to replicate MY design of a DRIVER and had already made a commitment to the F/R circuit...as such, all this was off topic and contributed to the wealth of offensive material (especially in your condescending remarks directed specifically towards me with out acknowledgment of your mistakes and role in this and your own use of "age" as an authority in such matters, not mine) and bad and poor misinformation that had already been cleared up in succinct posts very early on in this thread.

...

I'd like you to reflect that in fact, my generalizations about this community not all being, or even mostly, adept at electronics, though you may well be, is in fact true as witness by the standard of this thread alone. You and others took offense at that apparently, but I suggest that there is more than enough evidence that this forum is not as authoritative as was put, nor the helpful and supportive forum of "experts" that it was claimed to be.

As far as "authority" goes...not one of the people here, except those who were having problems and asking for my help, (one at least having had all this explained before elsewhere this month, and so wasting my time and everyone elses, not that it was the subject of the first post in this thread and already answered)...not one of the people here stuck to the topic at hand and I have had to withstand 6 PAGES! of maligning, condescending mis-information from people with no experience at all in these matters, no work to show, obvious trolls from other forums not a part of the "regular community here", people with 'secret widget' aspirations...and a continual barrage of abuse directed specifically at me. Me, the originator and apparently the only one of all the people contributing here who has even tried and built these things...my experience and knowledge of the project is questioned? No not any of you except myself and those actually doing this, had even tried this project at all, but then attempted to pass themselves off as "experts" while maligning me, and my work, the actual subject of this thread.

...

So, how does one account for this...well, I have only andronico father to explain it apparently...his view was to teach his son to reply with as condescending and pointlessly intellectually bankrupt and offensive remark that he could muster. Well done dad, your son has made your proud. As for the rest of the miscreants here that chose to look on or even pile on or be distracted by these antics, you really need to take a good hard look at yourselves, and I hope the moderators do too.

...

Bear in mind, contrary to what Gurner imagines and hopes for himself...I have never profited from this, in fact it has cost me a lot in many ways and attracted an extraordinary amount of abuse. I made these things for myself, I shared freely, I have supported it as best I can for years. But, I built these things for myself and largely succeeded in the second page of that huge thread...and refined to this design over 6 years ago.

Sorry, a "sorry"  from one minor person no where near covers the damage this does to me personally, especially in view of the antics people (some who have reappeared here) have been up to. Do any of you really imagine I get my jollies being pursued around the internet and fending off constant abuse and mis-information from ill informed cretins? No, I don't, and I've lost all patience with it.

Gurner has no idea about the concept of my work, is a troll, and has nothing yet, and on past record, possibly never without a lot of effort and WORK. Probably without my driver design or similar that has shown to work without his postulating. You andronico, at least have said "sorry", but you stood blithely by and tacitly recommended alternatives without any knowledge of the efficacy of such recommendations.

And, in the end, you first try and use your age as "authority" against me, then use my age as if I am senile or something...and to top it off...out of the mouth of your father. Can you not see how incredibly crappy that is? And you found what I suggested and is clearly true about the general caliber of people on this forum to be 'offensive'...well, excuse me...!!! Your contribution is enough evidence for me, but not as bad as some.


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@deadastronaut...if you require assistance, refer to the original tutorials and if things are unclear, you may contact me directly. At least you are making an effort in the right direction and I suspect destined for success. Good luck!

...

And for those who seem compelled to pursue and interject into every post I post under my own name anywhere across the internet on this subject, and in at least one case, referring to my personal life. Get a life!

Quote from: psw on May 25, 2010, 08:00:49 PM
I've explained that CA glue is not safe...it is not a preference. getting it on your fingers is bad enough (and not safe, just imagine these kids touching an eye from the fumes with hands as shown)...but the fumes alone are extremely toxic and damaging to the brain. Also, the fumes themselves can severely damage the eyes. It is in fact DANGEROUS.

Yeah, I've had those fumes get in my eyes. It's about just as bad as strong ammonia, but it doesn't get in your nose the same way. Years ago when I was still board drafting, I used to have to change the ammonia bottle on blueprint machines. A fresh bottle was quite nasty to deal with.

Quote from: psw on May 25, 2010, 08:00:49 PM
I have never profited from this, in fact it has cost me a lot in many ways and attracted an extraordinary amount of abuse. I made these things for myself, I shared freely, I have supported it as best I can for years. But, I built these things for myself and largely succeeded in the second page of that huge thread...and refined to this design over 6 years ago.

I am mystified as to why all the abuse has to come into play. It's always the few bad apples that ruin it for everyone else. I guess some people have to put down other people in order to feel good about themselves, eh?

FAO psw:

was only thinking outside the box a bit, and trying to save myself time and money. I've been reading my old physics notes, and i was 100% sure the theory was sound. In fact, it is. Cos the magnet (pole pieces) and the coil were in the correct position to generate the magnetic field. HOWEVER when i went back to go look at the amplifier part, (whether it's ruby one or whatever is irrelevant) because each pickup coil has a resistance of 8k instead of 8R, you'd need a ridiculous amplifier for it to work. I think i'm right in saying that amplifiers, where the speaker comes in, looks for either 4ohm, 8ohm or 16ohm speakers, so 8k is WAAAAY off!!

So thats fair enough. In theory, fine, in practice, not. Now, continuing the journey of exploration, lets look at what i do have. I have 2 perfectly good bobbins, 2 sets of pole pieces, a good magnet, and all the other crap like spacers etc etc. So i probably have a lot of the key components. What are my options? Well as far as i can see, i could either make a driver out of 1 bobbin, or a driver out of both bobbins. For aesthetic reason, my instincy is to use both bobbins, so it'll fit into the humbucker slot nicely, and not look odd, or anything of the sorts. I've also worked out where i'll put the battery and circuit, and where i'll move the knobs too etc etc. But that's details for later.

Now, in making this sort of humbucker-driver, am i better off winding BOTH coils to 8 ohms, or winding both to 4, so they've a combined resistance of 8?

Quote from: trad3mark on May 26, 2010, 04:58:37 PM
Now, in making this sort of humbucker-driver, am i better off winding BOTH coils to 8 ohms, or winding both to 4, so they've a combined resistance of 8?

Neither of the above.

If you want to make a humbucker sustainer driver, you'd be better off winding both coils to a DC resistance of 16 ohms & then connecting them in parallel - this yields a DC resistance of 8 Ohms, but results in lower inductance vs series connected coils  (I'll let psw explain all about inductive reactance, becuase I found out via him yesterday that I don't know)

@Gurner

It's not that you don't know...it is that you assume that a coil is a coil is a coil...where the wire gauge, coil, turns, depth, resulting resonance, etc...all kinds of factors create different characteristics to such inductors. Yes, there are factors like inductive reactance to consider, and many many more...whoever, you need to have the tools to measure it for any given design, have people replicate such designs exactly, be able to work out circuit networks to exactly compensate, etc...

My ideas were to circumvent these concerns by making a design that would work within a range without such compenstation...it is not that there are not phase differences, and lots of other factors, back EMF, but there are only so many factors that you are going to be able to deal with for any one given inductor...if others can't replicate exactly the driver intended for your circuit, then the circuit needs to be reevaluated with the qualities of the new driver in mind.

You will notice that for instance, for years and years fernandes would not offer their 'systems' outside of their own guitars. Even now, they typically supply the bridge HB pickup to control the input source, as well as their driver...to ensure they work. And of course, sensitive to factors such as the distance between the source pickup and the driver ("not recommended for 24 fret guitars", etc) and the string gauge.

I'm not suggesting gurner that you don't know, but that you have no work to show, and have spent an excessive amount of time badgering me, avoiding openly discussing your own ideas (even as you criticize me for not giving you schematics), etc...and simply being deceptive and frequently abusive in that approach.

It is not for me to explain such things, it is just for me to show that my design does in fact work even though such factors exist, what that design is (that will work with plain amplifiers in the guitars range), demonstrate that, and have it repeatedly verified as not just applying to my work and my guitars. This I ahve done, over 6 years ago...these threads are about that work.

It is not about your "new" work. There is nothing new about dual coil drivers...I've made them, all the commercial systems use them...they are more usual than my single coil typical drivers. Many adhere to this design approach.

I typically don't, because the single coil has numerous advantages inherent in it that work in favour of the broader criteria (for me...no loss of neck pickup, etc) and against thos criteria in the bigger dual coil designs.

We have seen dual coil designs work, you have seen mine..and even hex designs work (with radically different design characteristics)...but do they work as well (yes, quite likely)...do they work "better" (potentially a matter of opinion, not been 'verified' to be true, do from my experience with them have different characteristics (have a wider driving apature that spans more vibration nodes and anti-nodes, less "throw" through mutual attraction between the opposite magnet coils). Most people have found that the attraction is to cut back on EMI as an HB will cancel noise...however, if the single coil can do this too, where exactly is the drive advantage in these strategies?

I use extremely compact size and profile of coil all directly under the string and close to it, to isolate the influence of EMI...the dual coil designs are no where near as compact and can not be. For instance, you propose as I have done and many before, 2x 16 ohms in parallel as an equivalent to a single coil 8 ohm thin coil design such as mine...yes? And, by your mocking tone, you seem to think you can know the inductance reactance of such a coil (the resonance, etc...and by comparison with my own design (that I have to assume you have not built and tested)? I suggest that you don't, but even if you have...have you built such coils and can absolutely on that basis suggest to others that this will work 'just as well' based on resistance measurements alone? And work without a special circuit with phase compensation?

All I can say is that, the formula of a thin coil wound with 0.2mm wire, etc...has a consistent record of being able to work and work well, with simple (or indeed more complex) circuitry. Those who do advocate such designs have all tended towards far more advanced strategies in terms of AGC especially...such as Cols circuit designed to drive them or all of the commercial units. So, there simply is not the 'record' there to know that these things will work for complete amateurs and others who don't have the time or patience to delve as deeply as you feel the need to do into such areas.

There are people her though who are far more knowledgeable about such things than that, I designed my way around it. The ebow did it in much the same way and I'd suggest from what I've seen, in much the same approach to my trial and error, keep plugging away at it till I find something that will work, than to get bogged down in the theory. You will of course I used to worry excessively about such things, mislead in this by the patents to a large extent...but I made far more progress when I put it aside and asked, is there a work around.

It is not for me to "school you" Gurner except on decent and non-deceptive behaviour. I have no way of knowing what you know or dont...you still have not even confirmed that you came here less than a month ago with the idea of making a sustainer. You claim yourself to be "a hobbyist and not a designer" these are the only 'clues' you have so far given away on this forum at all. Most of the posts have in fact been here (look at the stats) and of little relevance nor with any working knowledge of my design, or in fact any evidence that you have yet made any working sustainer.

However, these people all seem to be asking about my work, simple amplification...not asking about inductance and such...and really...as always...if you seek to discuss such things...start a thread and don't hijack threads on other ideas and practical work.

You know...if someone starts a thread on a particular stomp box that they are working on or having problems with...I really don't think they would appreciate constant interjections from someone who is effectively saying...I don't like that design and can do it better myself, just have nothing to say about that...but you really should follow me. NO...the person would like to have help with what they are working on.

Quote from: trad3mark on May 26, 2010, 04:58:37 PM
FAO psw:

was only thinking outside the box a bit, and trying to save myself time and money. I've been reading my old physics notes, and i was 100% sure the theory was sound. In fact, it is. Cos the magnet (pole pieces) and the coil were in the correct position to generate the magnetic field. HOWEVER when i went back to go look at the amplifier part, (whether it's ruby one or whatever is irrelevant) because each pickup coil has a resistance of 8k instead of 8R, you'd need a ridiculous amplifier for it to work. I think i'm right in saying that amplifiers, where the speaker comes in, looks for either 4ohm, 8ohm or 16ohm speakers, so 8k is WAAAAY off!!

Unfortunately though...you were asking the exact same questions that you asked on your own PG thread on May 14 and neglected to mention and had the exact same proposal (using an 8K pickup coil as a driver) that was already explained from POST 1 of this thread...did you read the answers already given?

What you need to do is what Deadastronaut is doing, exactly...or Primal (who I provided links for...or Banika (who has given a tutorial) or what countless others ahve done. Make DRIVER coil with the qualities of design (inductance, resonance, efficiency, force to power, etc) that will work with your proposed circuit. If you are proposing a very simple amplifier circuit or a very simple design, that has been proven before to work, I can suggest you could use mine.

If you would like to follow Gurners advice, with no apparent experience....though many have shown such drivers to work, often with different wires gauges and such...perhaps he can provide you with the details and support required.

QuoteSo thats fair enough. In theory, fine, in practice, not. Now, continuing the journey of exploration, lets look at what i do have.

I have 2 perfectly good bobbins, 2 sets of pole pieces, a good magnet, and all the other crap like spacers etc etc. So i probably have a lot of the key components. What are my options? Well as far as i can see, i could either make a driver out of 1 bobbin, or a driver out of both bobbins. For aesthetic reason, my instincy is to use both bobbins, so it'll fit into the humbucker slot nicely, and not look odd, or anything of the sorts. I've also worked out where i'll put the battery and circuit, and where i'll move the knobs too etc etc. But that's details for later.

Now, in making this sort of humbucker-driver, am i better off winding BOTH coils to 8 ohms, or winding both to 4, so they've a combined resistance of 8?

As you are obviously inexperienced and are not wanting to follow Gurner down the rabbit hole of measuring the inductance reactance of a new design...and not seeking to create more elaborate circuits of your own design.

Your options are the same as already been given and shown by Primal to have worked along with others.

"block" one coil, preferably the slug coil, leaving 3mm in the top half. Wind with PVA glue or similar (not CA or epoxy) to 8 ohms as per all the tutorials linked (you have looked at these?) and put the whole thing back together with the driver closer to the neck, and power with a small amplifer with buffer or preamp of your choice (the F/R is an obvious and much used example) and tweak as you feel necessary (I use a 100uF output cap for instance...you choice) and make it exactly like everyone else has done before you...and you will get something pretty much that sounds like (see recordings) like my original designs and much like my current designs...a wide dynamic range, sustaining device.

On the battery, it is important that you can get to it. On a strat, in the pickup cavity is not a good idea for instance as the strings would likely have to come off every time you want to get into it...rear cavities are ideal.

The end result would be a single coil driver, exactly like mine with known qualities...and a blank coil beside it. Primal left that other coil wound and could use it as a single coil on it's own...but found it not to his liking and complicated the switching overly compared to the bridge pickup only option.

Aesthetics are important to my criteria and low mod. I don't blame you for considering this. I would however, test all of this outside the guitar as suggested before installation or any permanent mods to the guitar...as always.

You could wind two coils, as Gurner suggested, with unspecified wire gauge, to 16 ohms each (so twice that of my design x2) and wire them in parallel. This would give the right resistance mode, I'll let Gurner speak to the inductance reactance and performance aspects of such a design, I don't know what a pair of coils of twice the size and more than twice the work to construct, will behave like. Equally, on the same uninformed advice, you could block them up even more and make two 4 ohm coils and wire in parallel and get an 8 ohm load...I can also not speak to the other specifications of this design, or how  or if it would perform.

If you use the safe and proven method of PVA like glues in the winding, you will be able to recycle your components to explore such avenues in the future should you choose to do so with my design. If you had not stripped both coils, you could have had a low powered single coil (HB split) next to your driver for free instead of an empty bobbin...but I wouldn't be overly concerned about that.

...

I'm sorry for my impatience, if you would like my personal guidance, my email or other contacts are available from my profile and I can endeavour to help you there.

However, I have to say, most of this including the two dual coil options (2x16ohms parallel and 2x4ohm series) was explained as your first reply along with why you could not use the pickup coil and that you would have to buy the correct or appropriate wire and wind a coil...so, it is not like you have not alread been told about these things...or indeed that this was exactly what this thread originally explained...yet again. It is the most often asked and repeated of explanations...so again...

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=43483 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=43483)

You were directed to the tutorials in the reference section...the links to them were provided in this thread...there is no reason at all to try and follow the wide ranging "discussions" that would more suit the interests of a persson like a Gurner, or ever read the huge thread...as was explained.

The answers then, continues to remain the same...

first reply from col..someone with experience in dual coil designs...

QuoteUse one or both coils as driver (I'd go with two). As long as the inductance is around 1.2 mH and the resistance is about 8ohm.
So if you're using two coils, you want either two 16 ohm 2.4mH coils in parallel, or two 4 ohm 0.6 mH coils in series.

You can measure the inductance and understand that this is more than twice the work, twice the size and what he means by series and parallel, etc...and are prepared to experiment like that?

For my complete answer...again...

QuoteFor the tutorials, look at the electronics reference section.

Also, search out primals LP project from years back...he would a driver onto one half of an HB with complete success. The other half could be used as a single coil neck pickup, but he reported the strength and sound was rather low, so didn't bother as I recall. Even made the circuit small enough to fit in an HB selector cavity!

Some things are a little tricky to understand in your posts...the main thread is likely to confuse, it was an ongoing discussion that ranged widely over many years...check out the tutorials, the driver winding one shows the essentials say of potting and winding.

QUOTE
looks like i would have to buy stuff for this then. That sucks, cos it totally delays it by a while. I measured the resistance of each coil. 8.4 and 8.2. not bad.


I'm not sure what you are saying here...have you already wound driver coils? It sounds like you ahve measured the pickup coils, in which case, the wire is all wrong and you are likely reading 8.4K ohms...that's 8,400 ohms...vastly different from 8ohms. Few will have the correct wire on hand...for dual coil designs, I defer to cols specs...

As here, I pointed you to the tutorials...I take it that you have now seen these?

I pointed out that they included Primals project doing exactly what I am suggesting on an HB pickup...you looked that up, yes?

You  have studied the three post Pictorial on driver winding that I have linked continuously? You understand the importance of potting, what white PVA glue is, that you need to wind with the glue from the start, that the wire gauge is 0.2mm, that you wind to or perhaps just under 8 ohms, that you will need to "block up" the bobbin to leave a 3mm space for this coil in the top half, in a manner as shown in the Banika and other tutorials? Yes?

Really...until you have taken all this in, assembled the appropriate materials and read the relatively succinct advice given (until, like this thread, your thread was immediately hijacked...a typical strategy of the likes of Gurner, instead of starting his own thread in an appropriate section under his own name)...then it is unlikely that you will be successful.

However, Deadasstronaut her seems to be doing exactly that, so perhaps you could get together on that...or as I say, if you want or need particular advice (short of explaining inducatnce reactance) you could contact me directly.

I really think though, that this thread is not able to publicly discuss specific and helpful proven advice on my design ideas or even proven ideas of others, without the constant interjections of the like and particularly Gurner who is quick with the taunts, but nothing to show for it and I suspect not prepared to actually help from a base of actual proven knowledge of such things. I'd suggest you contact him directly if you seek his support and follow his theoretical ideas and machinations...but of course, he has deleted his emails from you access to avoid this and has yet to confirm that he has done any actual work on any sustainer and to post his results, let alone have them verified.

So...you know how to contact me...the materials have been linked, you were told before...and you didn't understand then. These things, as with pickups, are not about the resistance measurements at all...Gurner is on the right track there, but practically drawing people such as yourself down a garden path, interesting, but still no sustainer. This is not the place to discuss it, it has already been discussed at length before, it was open, but because of these constant digs, my thread has been closed and will remain so indefinitely. But there is no need to confuse yourself with siuch matters, if you can follow very simple illustrated instructions.

Please understand Trad3mark...these things were all explained as illustrated here already, and again for another in the start of this thread. This, particularly in my flu ridden state, is trying on the nerves...wht did you really expect people her to suggest...that despite what you were told, you could still just use the pickup as a driver? It certainly makes me wonder, you could have at least reminded me that I and others had already addressed this with you before. Col was the first to reply, he really has got proven experience in dual coil designs, as per my post, I'd be speaking to him about what he suggests in wire and such, if you want to go down that route...at least he has made a few of the things.

Gurner...

I don't think anyone here, and certainly not me, has any objection to you having and interet in and building your perfect sustainer system.

What they don't need, and certainly not me, and that we have all made clear is ill informed advice and constant personal asides directed at me.

I am not questioning your knowledge, I have no idea of what you know. I assume you are working on a sustainer, you have as much but not actually said so. But your posts don't indicate you ahve anything yet, and that you are not as adept as you seem to make yourself out to be in this thread...for instance

QuoteSo when the phase formula 'going gets tough'    gurner gets  erhm, I mean ......goes.  icon_redface

It's a fair cop - in the end I went the kludgers way - ie trial & error & a scope, sig gen & whole heap of resistors/caps - by swapping them in/out I got in the general ballpark for the phase shift I need  icon_lol

Thanks all for you input - hopefully, someone better at trig/maths than I can put RG's superb transposition above to good use!

You asked the question, might have even been more helpful answers if they knew what they were working on...I don't see anything that indicates a more advanced approach than myself or many others have taken in these aspects.

You surely must see that the qualities of the inductor...the driver...are what you need to base your phase correction on. Without a consistency of a known driver design, your 'calculations' and 'circuit design' will only apply to that particular driver, and not a 'universal' circuit as you request from me, and I suggest, can't exist without a given driver at least...let alone the qualities of the drive signal, the distance between the pickup and the driver and other factors...

You still seem oblivious that the whole point of my work and designs in terms of drivers, is to create a device of the right characteristics to work effectively without such compensation. To suggest that a dual coil design with 2x16 ohms in parallel is equivalent is adventurous to say the least.

Perhaps, if ou are working with such a design, you will need phase compensation to work effectively...certain what some call "the lag and lead time" (see FR patent for instance) may well need to be addressed. Good luck with that, your approach was much like mine...but such things will only be applicable and certainly approximate without the measurements and maths...at best...and specific to your particular driver qualities.

Now..if you could just find your way clear to just starting a thread and openly discussing what you are working on, you may well find that there are people here that can help and perhaps even do the maths for you say...there are some people who have a lot of expertise in this area in this forum, you had their ear.

What I am curious about, and I have no explanation why yourself and some others over at PG can't find there way clear to do what I did, openly and honestly and just start a thread, say what you are trying to do, show your progress, get some results, post up a tutorial of how others can replicate it...instead of hijacking others threads and these constant asides towards me personally? It simply makes no sense at all does it?

I hope you do find your sustainer Nirvana, but regardless of what you come up with, there will still be people that want a far simpler solution, that's within their capabilities, provides the response that they want, and works with the instrument and restrictions of it, that they choose.

So...yes, you can make more elaborate circuits..you surely know that myself and others have...but will they practically fit in a given guitar practically...or work with the driver that is necessary to keep their choice of neck pickup...or whateer their criteria is for the instrument as a whole.

But yes...is it possible to explain why you don't take the normal everyday expected route in these things. Start a thread, gather what help you need, build a working prototype, show your work and details, have others build and verify, perhaps suggest improvements, write a tutorial...and not compare or make 'competition' up with me or others for what really is a 'pissing contest' to see if I know more than you...or whatever your last post was supposed to imply.

I have had some of my more "advanced" circuits and ideas looked over and tested, even supplied complete guitar systems with sustainers...albeit rare and for special projects, largely at a cost to me...but have always done so under strict and legally binding confidentiality agreements. These agreements apply not only to my work, but also that of the people involved in the project. The last one I was involved with involved a very major pickup manufacturer and a USA custom builder for a guitar for a major recording and performing artist and prominent 'guitar star'. It takes a project of such interest and results to tempt me to build anything for anyone but myself. That is an understandable prerogative and bound by legal restrictions which I respect. I don't give away everything I have worked on or been successful in (or even all my failures) publically, or just because someone tries to goad me into doing so under an assumed name from belfast.

I hope that in that regard, people can respect that. But, that is not to say that the old 6 year old designs and circuit strategies are not effective as a good simple proven design to start with. You and many others clearly have the ability to come up with a basic circuit or replicate those given and tried, and my driver design or those of others, and actually have put it to the test, certainly in less time than it takes to pursue me in this pissing contest over it. You may well, and seem to be indicating, that you want to follow your own way, or perhaps to reinvent the wheel with the commercial systems...which is good too...but I don't see how all these asides towards me and hijacking threads and generally avoiding ever saying what you are actually here to do...even in your own threads...achieves?

Is it at all possible for your to answer these very simple questions...why the avoidance of even saying what you are doing and doing so under your own name in your own thread without reference to me?

pete that cleared it all up.

I think my frustration and your frustration were not all that different. My frustration was that any of the tutorials that people linked to had something missing, and like the original page on those other forums, they're about 400 pages long, and i simply do not have the time to read through 400 very long pages.

I'm heading into town tomorrow, and i'll get some wire then. I think peats have 28, 30, and 32 guage wire, so i'll need to go back and double check which one i need. Curse my short term memory!! I completely agree with the aesthetics thing. I figure i might leave one coil as a sort of dead coil, with the coil still on it, but ground it to the plate of the pickup thing, so it shouldn't have any effect on anything. if it does, i'll take it out and rip off the wiring.

As far as the buffer amp part goes, i'll breadboard a few. I think i can get away with not having to do any extra routing on this. My plan was to remove the pickup toggle switch, replace it with a DPDT switch as part of the amp (as an on-off switch for the sustainer) and also fit a little battery clasp in there. It's a surprisingly big cavity, so i think i could make it all fit. It measures 65mm x 30mm x 40mm (Length x width x depth) which seems like a perfect space for the sustainer circuit. The guitar has 3 knobs on it, so i figure i'd go with Tone, Volume and a killswitch. I'm tempted to try out the Big Muff tone filter in a guitar situation, but i figure it's a very optimistic plan heh!

So back to the driver, my revised plan then will be to use the bobbin with the screws, and wrap it to 8R, going 3mm deep, using PVA after every few windings (i've a tonne of PVA) and have a dead coil beside it so it looks pretty.

I was thinking of other things to put in beside it just to look cool. All my ideas weren't great. An old russian tube, some LED's and an AA battery all came to mind, but i think it'd look messy and unfinished.

Bring on the weekend. Optimistic as it may be, it would be nice to have a working sustainer by monday.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7464107/P270510_13.06%5B01%5D.JPG)


waheyyyyy....built a coil.....dont tell me its crap...lol...lol....lol.... :icon_mrgreen:

Well done ...it looks awful**  :icon_mrgreen: (what wire gauge is that you've used?)

What was the coil's final DC resistance reading? (did you count your turns?)




** just pulling yer leg, no harm meant!!

Quote from: Gurner on May 27, 2010, 09:54:13 AM
Well done ...it looks awful**  :icon_mrgreen: (what wire gauge is that you've used?)

What was the coil's final DC resistance reading? (did you count your turns?)




** just pulling yer leg, no harm meant!!

no worries man...its 0.246mm couldnt get 0.2mm.. or something..i ripped the label off it lol...

i wound it 162 times...and got a reading of 10.2 ohms...had to unwind a few times and
snip it..more is better than less.for sure......but yeah its bang on 8 ohms now...

still looks bad lol..... :icon_mrgreen:



lol. rob.

No Tutorials are 400 pages long, that is 8 years of discussion that are that long...it's been explained...

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16984)

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211 (http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=24211)

0.246mm is more than 25% out...as a result, many have found poor results, particularly in the high strings and in overall efficiency...trying to compensate for this with more power will only encourage more EMI and problems. This is obviously not the specifications, you will get A result, but obviously, I can't vouch for it if that far out of spec.

I'm not sure what glue you used, or why it turned out so messy...you could have course have wiped the glue off to set...white glue dries clear...and I noticed you chose to ignore the use of PVC tape to bind it up as per the tutorial

However a good go, didn't take long I bet...and by using waterbased softer glues that wont harm you, it will be reverable if the driver does not perform to expectations. The quality is certainly good enough to work, the lack of specs attention, I'can't explain that...(oh, don't ahve a 386, give me a 311, that will fit in the same space...not the best strategy do you think...the inductor (ie driver) is a vital electronic component). Good example of how far out the "calculators" are for these things though, gurner calculated 165 turns for thicker wire...

....

Is it at all possible for your to answer these very simple questions...why the avoidance of even saying what you are doing and doing so under your own name in your own thread without reference to me?

Guess not...

It would be good at least to know if you have ever done this for the people you seem to be advising on such things as 2x16 ohm drivers and the specific wire gauge and such you would propose and support...but if you can't answer even the simple questions put about motivation, you seem unlikely to know that...

no worries psw i wont blame you for anything ok.....lol. :icon_lol:

i did use wood glue..and yes i will wrap in tape etc..
i was so excited i just snapped a pic before it was done ok...i'll tidy it up a bit ....i promise.. :icon_rolleyes:
now to butcher that  old crapocaster......wahhhhheyyyyyyyy...!!!!!!!!!! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:

i got told off!.... :icon_eek:

only joking...

cheers. rob.

psw - steady on there chap, you're becoming a little dilerious & obsessive about my posts?

Suffice to say I wouldn't chime in if I wasn't profoundly confident wrt what I was chiming in with (like I say, this is a more 'learned' gathering than other guitar forums - I wouldn't want to leave myself open to ridicule by being plain wrong or ahem 'wishy washy')

Oh & while I'm here - I didn't calculate that 169 turns would equal 8 ohms - the well respected (& very well used by the pickup winding community) Ziegler pickup winding calculator did. It is very accurate - & the discrepancy has arisen, because I merely quickly fed into it some rough 'plucked out the air' bobbin dimensions (as a 'guide'). And I'm pretty certain that the bobbin dimensions I used will not exactly match the bobbin used by deadastronaut.

With the Ziegler caclulator, the bobbin core width & length dimensions you feed into it are absolutely key, as those two dimensions dictate the bobbin circumference, which in turns dictates how much DC resistance each single winding adds to the grand total (but I'm sure you knew this? Perhaps you simply overlooked it in your rush to dis'  :P)



PS Re Stripping enamelled copper - hehe, using 'wet & dry' is rather quaint, but not particularly 'street'    ....& potting with wood glue as you wind is great fun - lovely & messy ....a bit like 'colouring in' or fingerpainting etc - but you'll not catch too many folks who make coils frequently actually using PVA.

Quote from: deadastronaut on May 27, 2010, 02:14:37 PM
no worries psw i wont blame you for anything ok.....lol. :icon_lol:

i did use wood glue..and yes i will wrap in tape etc..
i was so excited i just snapped a pic before it was done ok...i'll tidy it up a bit ....i promise.. :icon_rolleyes:
now to butcher that  old crapocaster......wahhhhheyyyyyyyy...!!!!!!!!!! :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:

i got told off!.... :icon_eek:

only joking...

cheers. rob.

It looks fine and quite workable, except that the wire thing...if you look at a cross section of a wire, say 2.5cm and take the area distance between a 2cm diameter circle in the middle of it...and work out the area of distance, the mass left outside of the 2cm...it may seem a small discrepancy...it may seem a small difference...it's only 0.05 but in fact is quite a lot. I know that that wire can mean making some effort to find it, but it was not chosen at random..you will notice that I supplied Bankia with his wire from the other side of the world on his tutorial, but for comparative results it is important.

However, you should get quite a lot out of it...I just get a lot of people come back with the "it didn't work, must be the design, therefore the designer"...when it is typical (and you can see multiple examples on this thread) that people just simply do not stick to a known formula that will work or do it properly or with adequate skill.

Before modifying the guitar...I would build the circuit and run a line directly from the bridge pickup, out of the guitar to it...then hold the driver over the strings well away from all pickups, upside down over the strings...to ensure that it works (you don't really need any switching to do this, reverse the driver leads for the harmonic effect). Before this test, I would also connect a small speaker (8ohms) to your circuit and make sure that it is in fact working as an amplifier before hooking up a driver which is not going to make any sound.

good luck

psw how much room for error did you find between wire gauges? everywhere local to me seems to stock either 0.19mm or 0.21 as the closest to 0.2.

Quotepsw - steady on there chap, you're becoming a little dilerious & obsessive about my posts?

Well, statistically it seems to be you...

QuoteSuffice to say I wouldn't chime in if I wasn't profoundly confident wrt what I was chiming in with (like I say, this is a more 'learned' gathering than other guitar forums - I wouldn't want to leave myself open to ridicule by being plain wrong or ahem 'wishy washy')

Where is the evidence that you are working on anything but an 'improved widget" at all...let alone made one of these things. As someone with less than a month on this forum and almost all of your posts here...exactly where is any of this "knowledge" that you presume to co-opt from others on this forum come from?

QuoteOh & while I'm here - I didn't calculate that 169 turns would equal 8 ohms - the well respected (& very  well used by the pickup winding community) Ziegler pickup winding calculator did. It is very  accurate - & the discrepancy has arisen, because I merely quickly fed into it some rough 'plucked out the air' bobbin dimensions (as a 'guide'). And I'm pretty certain that the bobbin dimensions I used will not exactly match the bobbin used by deadastronaut.

Did you find it direct, or did you find it as one of the tools often used as a guide from the sustainer thread. Either way, it has already pointed out elsewhere that such things are notoriously inaccurate, it is a guide and very good for that...everyone is using slightly different core and bobbin sizes and you quoted entered the entirely different gauge than specified wire for the design when you did do your example...any reason for that?

QuoteWith the Ziegler caclulator, the bobbin core width & length dimensions you feed into it are absolutely key, as those two dimensions dictate the bobbin circumference, which in turns dictates how much DC resistance each single winding adds to the grand total (but I'm sure you knew this? Perhaps you simply overlooked it in your rush to dis'  Tongue)

No...because I had already advised against worrying about such things as you can wind the coil as fast as all the futzing around finding the guide winds...generally it does work out in that kind of ball park so that 'guide number' is already known...I described how to measure the wire resistance...and pot the coil...

However, along with the bobbin and such necessary for these calculators to work...is the skill of the winder whcih can not be known. This becomes more exaggerated with hand winding, the scatter winding effect and particularly with thick wire gauges...many, many times thicker than the pickup wire it was designed to calculate...because ot hte tendency to create quite a few gaps, and sometimes even stretch (causing the wire gauge to thin down) at the ends of an elongated coil. SO...no, it wasn't to "dis" you...it was sound advice for this application borne from the use of this calculator by myself and many others with this kind of thing for many years.

And your advice is borne from?...well...you won't say...which of course was the question put to you for some time now from myself and others.

....

QuotePS Re Stripping enamelled copper - hehe, using 'wet & dry' is rather quaint, but not particularly 'street'...

The "wet and dry" method is in fact the way suggested in the pickup forum and used to from my pickup making activities (which was originally why I joined PG and why of course I was interested in sustainers as being like a "reverse pickup" of sorts...and the crucial differences). It is extremely cred in the pickup communities and when working with such fine wires...most people you will find have heard of it and many, like me will have a little piece taped to the side of their winder for just such a purpose.

Quote....& potting with wood glue as you wind is great fun - lovely & messy ....a bit like 'colouring in' or fingerpainting etc - but you'll not catch too many folks who make coils frequently actually using PVA.

The PVA method is safe and works perfectly and is reversible should people seek to rewind a bobbin and not waste magnets and materials if they...say for instance...didn't use the right wire for my design and the results are less than expected, or they built a coil that does not adequately work for a host of common reasons, usually related to internal vibration.

It is safe...many people making these things are very young and naive and just seek to make the thing...I advise common working cheap products that they probably already have with a long standing proven history. CA glue is massively unsafe in this activity. Paraffin wax (though commonly used with pickup potting) can be an extreme fire danger...it must also be applied after winding and is generally found not to provide sufficient penetration by comparison with this application. As the wax penetrates the windings, the copper wire absorbs the heat in the wax starting to set it a few winds in and closing the pores...often leaving an internal unseen area of unpotted coil. At the very least, with people unaccustomed to working with it, it can be hazardous and non-effective. Many commercial applications for inductors require a "solid coil" for which such potting techniques are not adequate...for these applications there is a wire with a coating that will melt while remaining insulated with the application of a current to it...if people can't get the right wire gauge, I am hardly likely to suggest they seek out such wire and attempt to work with it.

No...I don't know which folks you are referring to...if it were you, i would have thought you'd offer up your alternative and show how you do "all these coils"...but alas, you can't yet even say if you have any experience in sustainers, let alone winding coils...

I am just trying to clear up the mis-information you seem to be continually presenting...and seemingly avoiding just doing your own work or even talking or presenting it.

The reality is that, the only sure way (and it is not unheard of, there are many strategies for ensuring a potted coil) especially with people who have never made a coil before...and with one with so few turns, thick wire and done be hand...is to pot with glue as you wind. All successful sustainers have been done in such a manner...including the eBow and others. In my more modern versions, I use epoxy...but not some 5 minute stuff from the hardware store...and largely because my more modern versions have no supporting bobbins at all...some not even cores of magnets...like the wafer coil. It too can be messy and is not for amateurs. I advise against it for such people as typically approach this simple project.

Also, dry PVA is much the same as the qualites of PVC which of course is the industry standard for insulating tape on wires and such....it seems highly appropriate...and unlike bad alternatives like CA, is designed to have gap filling qualities ideal for this purpose. So...while you seem to think it "quaint" and demean this solution as 'kindergarten-ish" and so me and my work (which is proven and public...unlike yours, if there is any at all) it is the best and most appropriate that I could find that WORKS and has a proven record...is safe...is reversible...that costs next to nothing...and is far less "messy" compared to what some suggest...absolutely risk free, extremely effective insulation material, practically free, WORKS! The importance of potting can not be under-estimated...and since for all your jibing you have not offered an alternative...it is not at all helpful.

Remember, like the wire gauge (which you also have not suggested an alternative) and the design generally (which you have not offered an alternative) the potting is frequently left out. Only last month a person potted the coil with playdoh...seriously...and sounded much like the OP of this thread and several others actually making these things. Commonly, people just leave it out...and the result is something that does not work and squeals uncontrollably from internal vibrations...audibly...form the driver itself, not from feedback. The same has occured with wax potted coils and other alternatives...but never with PVA wound with the "potting".

The use of PVC tape at the end to bind it up, helps with the clamping to keep the coil nice and compact and gap free and remove excess glue. Yes, it can look a bit messy, but a damp rag and it's all cleaned up and no risk of chemicals reacting with the enamel insulation that may strip it and cause shorts. Coils also settle and can generate a bit of heat and expansion in this application (unlike pickups) and as such, glues like CA will be sticking to the enamel insulation and may 'crack' with expansion risking future shorts and a failure of the driver. Wax (which can't be used while winding and so you can not be sure of penetration...and so not advised for the reasons given above) will provide a medium that allows for this and will fill gaps (if it and the coil itself can remain hot enough for a sufficient amount of time...or vacuum soaked) without ever risking the insulation and provide for the inevitable expansion and settling that will occur. Epoxy does not, and you have to have methods that ensure that there is absolutely no gaps at all (like my more modern designs...that btw are 'theoretically impossible' with that calculator). PVA is a medium that has a long work time and allows the coil to settle while setting, and will cope with any expansion and heating effects that will be thrown at it because it has some elasticity...perfect for this application.

And while there are all these coherent reasons for suggesting it...you "did" it and me with no alternatives or apparent thought into what would be advisable. You then throw out every logical fallacy as support for these non-alternatives...the old "plea to authority", there are more experienced people here than you and me. Well, for sure...but I ahve wound well over a hundred coils for this exact application and tested a lot of materials...personally. There would be few here if any that can say that. Moreover, it is a logical fallacy and so facetious, because you have only just joined this forum and have nothing to verify that YOU are an authority on any thing yet and so can't co-opt that status, and that although there are many professionals, not many have in fact wound coils for this application if they wind coils on a regular basis at all. With sustainer and pickup making coils what I am known to have been doing for many years, and a forum member here for many years (and yes, quite a few simple and effective circuits designed and constructed) and the originator of these sound and safe techniques that work.

You can also achieve very professional results first time around...as Bankia shows in his concise tutorial on my design, one of many about and linked to...

http://diy-fever.com/misc/diy-sustainer/ (http://diy-fever.com/misc/diy-sustainer/)

(http://diy-fever.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/sustainer/winding_done.jpg)

Does that look "unprofessional" or "insufficient" or amusingly "quaint" for the application?

(http://diy-fever.com/wordpress/wp-content/gallery/sustainer/taped.jpg)

Looks pretty darn good to me, and exactly using the methods described by me!

As for using an iron to strip wires I have explained this before...if you strip any insulated wire with an iron, you will burn of the insulation and so leave residue. Often this residue will be carbon and conductive...but also resistant (often highly so) risking frequent false or misleading readings. If you were to try and solder to such stripped wire, you are likely to create poor or dry or at least suspect solder joins on such fine wire. This is a known fact, and stands to reasons...and is eactly the experience of the OP here even...so therefore always bad advice. With wire such as the 0.2mm specified, I use the back of a knife as pointed out, with very fine wire such as pickup wire, I use very light wet and dry paper as do most people I suggest and widely known to be the case in that community. Any other insulation, I use industrial standard and accurate wire strippers made for the purpose, but not applicable to this kind of wire. I don't know what you mean or imply by "street", but it is of course 'standard procedure' and widely described in most texts concerning pickup winding...maybe you are not aware of such things when you describe this method as "quaint". However, as usual, you level such things against me instead of offering any alternative or advise of your won...short of sticking a hot iron into wet glue while you are trying to hold the whole thing together with glue on your hands and creating exactly the problem described from the OP of this thread...before you suggested using it!

At least, my advise is based on experience, proven, safe and likely to produce results. You have shown nothing and offered nothing but poor advice and have shown nothing to allow you to co-opt authority for such things from the minority of 'professionals' in this community who may perhaps have some experience in such coils and this application. The only one who I can categorically point to from this community, and shown the work of...used exactly my suggested method, quaint as you find it...and it worked perfectly and looked good too. What does that tell you Gurner...

However, you may still like to answer that question...IF you are working on alternatives, just post the things in an appropriate thread of your own...be up front about it, and let people decide for themselves (without the put downs) if they would like to follow your example. I honestly would love and had expected in all these years for someone perhaps to come up with something...but for all the profile the "project" has had, nothing of the sort has yet to appear. And those that "claim" to know better, strategically knock know proven and working methods and designs, don't show their work...and never, start their own threads illustrating their own work, and certainly not without constanct jibes personally directed towards me. Many members here will know this to be true, and you are just repeating that trend, comeing as you do to here from PG. One really has to ask, "why?" You see others here, and some contributing to this thread, do exactly that..."lets make a tap tempo echo" thread...or "let's make a DIY looper pedal"...and in the end, often, a whole verified project will come of it, join the legions of other such designs, and enrich the community and the whole DIY thing. This is of course how most of these things start, certainly what I did...I just got a lot of hangers on as well as contributors over many years...and there was an absence of anyone else doing the same thing outside of that project and being successful in all that time. No one is more surprised than me, normally once it is shown that it can be done, lot's of alternatives and solutions emerge. I honestly wish you can do it. However, as I say...they almost always emerge from honest, open and often a collaborative effort, in threads under their own moniker and always show their work and results. I've not seen anyone here suggest that they are an 'expert' because a few weeks ago they made up a name and joined this community...but apparently you feel that need to be so shallow that you rely on the 'reputation' of others and apply it to yourself...purely to work your agenda to mock me and my work and suggestions. Any intelligent person can see that this is just stupid and should undermine your credibility till proven otherwise. You clearly have no concept of practical insulation and coil potting nor wire stripping procedures appropriate, offer no alternatives (do you really think these things should be hi-tech...carbon nano tubes perhaps?) nor a knowledge of the common practice in the pickup making community and the literature...while suggesting a technique known to risk false readings and bad joins if used...and repeatedly explained...and especially if used in the situation and materials being used here. And, with the clearly inexperienced people trying to do it.

Quote from: trad3mark on May 27, 2010, 07:21:10 PM
psw how much room for error did you find between wire gauges? everywhere local to me seems to stock either 0.19mm or 0.21 as the closest to 0.2.

I tested wires from 0.15 to 0.25 and larger in comparison.

There is a fair margin in error with this project...I would veer towards the 0.21 as the 0.01 is likely to take the insulation into account...so 0.2mm + insulation = 0.21

Again, check the available tutorials...the driver winding tutorial consists of only three posts, half a page, showing exactly what to do in pictures...there was never any reason to read 400+ pages of discussion about such things. This was pointed out here and to you personally on May 14.

Bankia's tutorial is excellent and exactly the same thing, the link is above on that. As shown, have the correct materials at hand before you start and the whole process should take about 10 minutes...plus drying over night. A small reel of wire can make a few winders, so if the first one is not up to the quality as you might like (lets face if before you do it, you have no experience and is not uncommon) but for the few dollars you spend on the wire, you will get a few goes...or a few whole drivers if you take care.

Ignore people without proven experience or alternatives that have been shown to be effective. PVA was chosen for very good and sound reasons and is safe and reversible. It is no more "quaint" that Wax that has shown to have problems in this application and far safer. It is necessary to use the glue while winding, but you only need a little, the winding will push the glue through it, you just simply wipe off the excess with a damp sponge or rag and clean up when it is all done and wrapped up and preferably clamped on the sides of the coil as necessary while it sets.

Good luck...but I'd be going for the 0.21 and expect good results...wind to 8 ohms or slightly less as described...ensure your meter is accurate or calibrated if necessary and be sure to get a good bright bare wire to read off...it can help to solder a wire to the start point of the coil before you start winding, as this makes for a sure contact point at that end.

In relation to my "credentials" that are continually being "mocked"...I have been working on guitars, pickups and even sustainers and various circuits (owning over 50 stompboxes for instance) for decades. I do quite a bit of guitar wiring for instance.

Last week I wired this LP wiith the "twenty-dual" scheme, a more advanced version of the infamous Jimmy Page wiring. I consulted with the designer and others and made sure I had a verified diagram. I made cardboard template (yep, I just pushed hole in it with sharp scissors) and marked the controls for their function with a black pen. I know, seems kindergartenish and pedantic...then I used a FILE to score each opt as appropriate for grounding wires and pre tinned them...and all the contact points on the pots.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/LP%20Project/LPpotsoldering.jpg)

The results you can see, with no more heat or time than you would use for the tinned wires to be joined to them, a perfect neat shiny soldering connection that can be melted quickly and easily with every join required.

For exactly the same reasons as the wire, and I know the Gurners of the world will think this a bit "quaint" or even primitive...but have a good look at the number of bad joins, mess and even destroyed or damaged pots using the excessive heat method to simply burn through the machining oils and gunk and oxidization that occurs on these parts, or any exposed metal, even wires in short order.

Further, I continued to methodically go through all the connections systematically and checking as I go, every solder join perfect, every wire trimmed and tinned. But even with such methods and care...still has to be tested, there are so many potential pitfalls...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/LP%20Project/LPtestingharness01.jpg)

So...eventually I get the "harness" soldered up on the cardboard, attach jumpers from all external wiring connections..and wire it up and plug it in a test that they all work completely as expected. Once tested and all happy, then the cardboard is removed, the pots go in the guitar and the wiring made neat and good and fully insulated with shrink warp tubing or PVC tape as appropriate.

Cold it be done with the old, apply as much heat as you can to join to the pots, could it work with a few cold joins in it, could it work without testing it first (in this case, yes, but how would I know), could it be achieved without the "quaint" cardboard cutout and the penned in pot labels to remind me what I was working on and the function...well, possibly, many would not go to this extent...I didn't when I started doing this.

However, I guarantee better results, perfect joins and positively working wiring before anything goes into a guitar...and this is especially true with things like the sustainer which are quite a bit more tricky to get right.

Therefore, I still always test my sustainers before they go into a guitar and the wiring and especially if I have not done things before, without making too many plans or commitments to things like pulling a guitar apart or drilling into it, before I know it works. In fact, I have a special guitar that is especially dedicated with a huge route under the strings and a template for an infinite amount of real world control layouts...so that I can do this all with new designs and where I do not have the actual guitar handy to work on, fitting easily a collection of different pickups and configurations on the fly, testing circuit variations and such in the real world.

There are a number of people like Gurner that would like you to consider my work and methods and advice to be "quaint" but they are well known and considered professional, guaranteed to get the appropriated results, will work before they go anywhere near modding a guitar...and more over...I can absolutely confirm that anything like this will be faster than the old "Kludge" things together and inappropriate use of tools and methods that many seem to advocate and we have all seen many examples of on every forum, including this one...sometimes even in name brand guitars!

So...

Things like PVA as a practical liquid version of PVC, the industry standard insulating material in electronics is not "quaint", it just makes sense.

Not burning insulation through is always ill advised, it can lead to false readings, it did in this thread, it is always bad practice...virtually ensuring suspect joins, especially on fine single strand wires with hardly any surface area to join to.

Making the suggestion that a person doing this for decades and learning from a lot of people, including many from this forum over the years, and a lot of practical experience on these exact procedures and working on guitars...and troubleshooting other peoples mistakes I might add...has not the experience and record to speak with some authority or that my work is in any way "quaint" or"finger painting" or "colouring in" as has been suggested, is just rediculous...Gurner has clearly seen enough of my work to know my credentials. We have seen none of his and he refuses to do so or explain from where he gets this mysterious "expertise" and finds it necessary to bloat out this thread with constant bad advice...and co-opt the apparent "expertise" generalized across a forum he just joined, to suggest that by doing so, he too shares in this "authority" and can speak to these matters...clearly a nonsense and a bankrupt intellectually.

I do have more advanced circuits...I have a years worth of "secret" designs and innovations in hex drivers for instance that is well known and documented as well. But, we are not talking about such things here, we are talking about a 6 year old very simple design that has proven to work, much like the eBow...itself glue potted I should add...and many of my ideas are not only my prerogative not to share, are not adaptable to DIY generally and certainly not cost effective in that form and some even covered by confidentially agreements...although verified as working under sustained accusations that they are "hoaxes" over the years.

So...just to verify, I do have a fair bit of experience and do not deserve the kind of ill informed constant jibes about my approach being childlike or not having quite a bit of precedence in all the literature and the work of professionals in the industry, from which I learned and practice. If people just work methodically and with care to replicate a known design with the specifications required, there is no reason not to get positive results much like I have presented in audio and with these exact same specs and basic circuits.

That there are some very experienced people in this forum, I still see little evidence of it as being of the majority, and none that can be attached to the new member Gurner who has decided to continue to badger me instead of verifying his own credentials or to do the more expected thing of even coming out and stating that he is working on a sustainer, his criteria for his work, and his progress and outcome working towards verification and the open disclosure that he seeks from me on my more evolved designs...in his own thread and under his own name.

It is a "pissing contest" as far as he is concerned...but I welcome it if he can do better...I just don't understand why he does not do so openly and needs to waste his time following me across forums to do so. I will however, continue to correct bad advice and mis-information and my "credentials" and point out the bankrupt nature of his arguments. That there are experienced people here does not equate to hi9m being one of them, or the people actually attempting this project and seeking help. I will continue to correct bad advice, especially advice that has the risk of bad readings and joins or indeed the safety of the people attempting to build something which is pretty simple, if a little unusual.

I will continue to support this design as well as something that can be successfully done and to point out the obvious, if it does not conform reasonably to the specifications and methods suggested to achieve the results required it is not the fault of the design, and certainly not the designer, but a failure of people to take sound advice and stick to it...even when repeatedly shown to be in three short picture laden posts in a tutorial with sound bites of the results.

I can only presume that Gurner, like others much like him in recent times, has nothing at this point in time and little if any knowledge of this particular design, dual coil designs or much in the way of coil winding experience or research. I ahve to presume that, because curiously, he does not even say if he has made a sustainer of any type or have anything he is prepared to show for it. When provided with the information for his phase correction, the maths is too hard and he goes to trial and error...why not, that's how I do it, a little "kindergarten" I know...time consuming, but results did come of the work in the end. If one were to go back over the years of my work, and telefunkton has given links to almost every post I have made here on the subject (missed few that might give a couple more clues btw) you will see it has always been under my own name and either my own threads or like this one, in relation to my own designs or experience.

Now...about that question Gurner...

yep it works perfectly..on all strings up to 24 fret...waheeyyyy.. :icon_cool: :icon_cool: :icon_cool:

lol....not really.i;m just building the amp..ha ha...and yes i will test amp first...lol... :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :icon_lol:

update soon... :icon_twisted:

rob.

i know this is a touchy subject cos there's some grey, but anyway, i was reading more electromag theory, and had a random idea.

ages ago i came across the moog guitar, with the sustainer/anti-sustainer type thing. It seemed cool, although how much i'd use the mute string thing, i'm not sure. ANYWAY, on that subject, i was trying to figure out ways to do that. Initially, i thought, it could probably be done with a good noise gate pretty easily. I know one or two who do that for some synthy sounds, which sounds cool. But what about with the sustainer.

Well going right down to the theory of waves, couldn't it be done with destructive interferrance? If the whole opperation of the sustainer is to create electro mag waves around the strings, couldn't you create one to cancel out the waves? I'd need someone to just verify the theory of that for me, but it seems to make sense.

If it does, there's now the new challenge of how to actually do that with the sustainer driver. Maybe not.

(http://astro-canada.ca/_en/_illustrations/a4313_interference_en_g.jpg)

Ok, so although this terminology/analogy i'm about to use is incorrect (I know this!!), it'll simplify things to the max.

Lets say that when we're using the sustainer in sustainer mode, it takes a "positive" wave (I'm just calling it positive! i know it goes +-+-+-+- really quick, ignore that) from the pickup, amplifies it, then shoots it out through the driver, giving a continuous loop of the signal wave. sustain! awesome!
Now what about muting that? Well lets say you play a note. The normal pickup reads this, and sends it into the amplifier. Now, instead of the amplifier sending an amplified "positive" wave to the driver, what if the amplifier also inverted it, just like the diagram above, and THEN shoots it out through the driver. wouldn't that create destructive interferrance, and hence mute the string? My concern was that it would mute, then basically, sustain the "negative" wave, but, if it mutes it, then there'll be no vibration, and hence no wave, for the pickup to read and the amp to amplify.

amidoinitrite?

Feedbackcontrol study: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~eberdahl/Papers/STANM120.pdf

I know this thread hasn't been posted in for a while, but I'm not huge fan of starting a new topic with something that I've already found. Anyways, I have been watching many of the sustainer threads going about the internet, many of which PSW has been in. I have seen many people bash/troll/attack/etc. against him even though he's been encouraging others to use a basic system and add their own touches. So, before I continue, I would personally like to thank PSW for both guidance, the bobbin tutorial, and helping other people get in the right direction (even after having to dig through said post, but I understand his standing on it, so not trolling)
Which is the purpose of this current post.

The Driver
I'm starting with a Fetzer/Ruby for my sustainer driver, which I have done some research on (while also getting to know electronics better) and this is what I've drawn up:
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/FetzerRubyCombined.jpg)

But... Come to find out, it doesn't match Bancika's layout from DIY Layout Creator (a program that I downloaded, but I'm sad to say I don't remember where I got it):
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/FetzerRubyPic.jpg)

Which the wiring diagram is actually this:
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/FetzerRubyDia.jpg)

I also got help on the reference for wiring this up from Runoffgroove which host a good source of diagrams and perf layouts.
This is what I understand of the Fetzer/Ruby, that the Fetzer:
(http://www.runoffgroove.com/fetzervalve.png)
http://www.runoffgroove.com/fetzervalve.html

Drives the ruby:
(http://www.runoffgroove.com/ruby.png)
http://www.runoffgroove.com/ruby.html

Which should be able to drive the sustainer pickup. When I combined the two pictures above, I came out with the first picture I posted, but it didn't add up with Bancika's diagram, so, I redrew the perf Diagram (third pic)

The Bobbin
The practice bobbin I plan on using was taken out of a Squire Strat (or as I'm going to call it, the crap strat). I have already removed the tape and wires, which leaves me with this:
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/practicebobbin.jpg)

Now I know I have to use .2mm wire (32 gauge for the Americans and any other countries that use gauge size) and wrap around the bobbin in a depth of 3mm, while trying to also get an impedance (I believe is the word) of 8ohms. For some reason, I've seen 8kohms pop up here, when in the 300 page PG thread I read a constant 8ohms. so... I'll stick with my 8ohm for now.

Wiring
From what I understood from a wiring diagram on the 300page PG thread, and it was on the last page, the input stage of the F/R goes from the Volume Bridge Pot (which means it'll get its signal from the Bridge Pickup) and the very top ground (in the perf pic) comes from the same pot, but grounded to the bridge itself. The +9v and the ground below it (-9v) are pretty self explanatory. The -out (ground) and the +out go to a DPDT switch, which are then connected to the inner mounts. Then when the switch is pulled one way, the signal will go out normally to the proper start and finish, but when the switch is pulled the other way, two wires cross over so that they switch the signal to the start and finish, supposedly giving it the "harmonic" mode.

The reason for this post is that I'm checking to see if all my "research" is paying off before I dive head first into this project. I have the majority of my parts (missing the 68k resistor, and the 100uf electrolytic cap, and the 32 gauge wire. The sustainer is first going onto my Crap Strat:
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/CrapStrat.jpg)

And then once I'm happy with what I got, I plan on putting it on my Hando 2 Les Paul look alike
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/LesPaul.jpg)

and then quite possibly my friends Dean Razorback, which would be sweet lol

any and all advice is welcome. :icon_biggrin:

Thank You Shadow Wolf. Because of the trolling (actually a single member, also a member here) I help people who require it by email (available in my profile) and this is much more productive. I've helped two in the last week, one successful sending this last night:

Quoteby the way..i did manage to get the sustainer hooked up into the ibanez a while back..it actually f*****g worked..i was AMAZED..not that your design worked..that I...ME..could actually build such a device hehe.  If I havent said it enuf man..THANK YOU =D

The other, like so many, just a simple error and misunderstanding. He sent me pics and even video of tests, used the F/R, rewound a single coil, on a guitar much like this strat... but didn't do a couple of things that ensured that it didn't work but I believe will in the very near future. Hear is his driver...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/DSC_00731.jpg)

As the many others illustrated, the lower part of the bobbin is blocked off, 3mm space at the top is left to wind on, the coil is fairly well glued all through with PVA. He built the F/R to spec and seemed to be working, but it didn't work....it took a bit of back and forth till I got to actually see the driver like this...

One reason was that he made the very common error of jumping directly to the installation stage before successfully getting the thing to work. It is always best to build the circuit and test it with a speaker, then test it with the driver (taking wires directly from the bridge pickup and holding the driver above the strings well away from the pickups above the neck), ensuring that the middle or any other pickup coil is completely disconnected from the circuit (both ground and hot, so not just simply de-selected). Other pickups can be accommodated with a 4pdt bypass on/off switch. Assuming that it will work before it does work is never a good thing but on a typical strat, it is a lot of work to take the scratch plate off and when you do, how are you going to test it while still having a working guitar?

This would have made things easier, but was not the actual cause of the problem. The middle pickup could be easily disconnected but the driver looks ok, should be getting something?

No, because he thought it would be a good idea to make a more 'blade' type thing with an internal magnet...this is not strictly the design. His magnet then looks like this...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/peterstewartwarmington/DSC_00741.jpg)

Not good and took a few emails and tests till this was revealed. The magnet was on the bottom flat, but now inside on its side with the north/south not going through the core but to either side....clearly not what we want (looks neat, might even work with an HB type magnet that is N/S along the edge, but not this one)...if not for this, and judging by the video he sent, it would easily have worked and I expect a similar email to last nights very soon.

On the circuit, it's not one I personally have used, but many have including these two with success. Unlike my 'troll' i don't have a problem with the LM386 as a simple amp for the project and beginners. It is still the heart inside the Ebow for instance, and I still use them in my own guitar...though i have used many amps over the years and have options. The Fetzer part is designed for "tone" (ie distortion) which is not the most appropriate for the project...but really the point of the 'preamp' is almost entirely simply to prevent loading on the pickup with the driver connected and the fetzer will do that and again, has been successful.

The RoG circuits though are slightly too basic. A 10uF cap added between pins 1 and 8 in series with the trim gain pot there helps to keep things stable and stop internal oscillation (squeal) at high gains for instance (such things are clear in the data sheet for the chip). Generally I use a 100uF output cap instead of the 220uF cap in the circuit there, this gives the circuit a more high end bias and so moderates the low string response (the thicker, slower strings are a little too responsive) while helping drive the high strings (with less metal in them and faster speed, harder to drive physically).

Another thing to do is to be sure to test all this with a battery and ensure that it is good. Many will try using a power pack, but this can give false results...the voltage may be 9 volts, but the current could be more than a real battery will be able to provide. Also, such power often will contain noise that can get into the ground and cause problems, unless you are intending to plug the guitar into the wall when done, use a battery. On that also with a strat and similar, you are going to need to change it, so in the main cavity where you may need to remove all the strings is not likely the best place...many have squeezed it into the trem cavity. I personally think the trem is a great addition to a sustainer guitar, but some have got a battery in there and still use it ok.

One other problem that comes up on guitars like this and the guy I'm helping here has been finding, the driver is the heart of this thing and you should get some response with any simple amplifier circuit if it works (tested with a speaker right), but the source pickup is also important. A low quality SC pup, especially in a poorly shielded strat or with wires hanging out while testing tends to pick up a bit of noise, especially in a testing environment. Any noise will be amplified and transmitted by the driver and do nothing to drive the strings and may even be detrimental. An HB is ideal, but my first sustainer was such a guitar, so it can work, just be aware and keep noise to a minimum and ensure all other pups are completely disconnected not just 'de-selected' as with the pickup selector that keeps the ground hard wired.

...

Alright, so these are the general mistakes to avoid and such and my contact address is there for most to see. Most mistakes are fairly simple but can be hard to understand or identify unless everything is disclosed and clear pictures like the above are necessary. The driver above is being rebuilt as it was constructed, poles and magnet below and there are lots of pics about of such conversions....no need to move the magnet or to have a rail type typical of what I tend to use.

As I say, most productivity can be made with direct non public email conversation and many people have become friends and many others have simply built the thing and it worked and just dropped by to thank me. My Telecaster is still going strong with a sustainer very similar to this basic model and useful, I still work on guitars and just gone back to a strat with some neat writing and features (but no sustainer) and in the infancy stages of putting together a home studio. I have no doubt that the sustainer will make some appearance in the recording environment, but remember it is just an effect, a unique and fascinating thing, but not hte be all and end all of guitar technology!

Hope this helps a bit and others who may be contemplating this and again, contact direct by email is better than muddying up the forums while ironing things out and inadvertently giving the impression that there are problems with the project when it may just be a simple 'good idea' gone wrong, like mounting the magnet sideways...oh, and good luck! Pete

That's a helluva first post...

Since your questions haven't been answered, I'll chime in....

(& I'll even keep it short!)

In your first hand drawn circuit, you've essentially joined two 'front ends' in front on the LM386 ....this isn't necessary (you've also missed important some components off the LM386 output - see the LM386 pin5 components on the ruby, it's correct .....btw some refer to the required cap & resistor as a zobel network...remember to use this phrase at every opportunity to appear 'learned'  ;D)

For your sustainer MkI, just go with the vanilla ruby circuit....it has all the basics you need - the FET buffers your guitar, the LM386 provides the gain....job done.  

Rearrange that phase reversal switch, so that the two 'common' poles feed your two driver wires (therefore only two wires feed out to your driver, vs the 4 wires to your driver as per  your diagram)

Be aware that once the initial "Woooaah - my string is moving on its own"...novelty has subsided (ie after about 30 mins of playing U2's "with or without you"  :icon_mrgreen:) you'll begin to realise all  the shortcomings relating to this most basic of DIY sustainers, but that's when your own experimentation comes into play...Good luck!

Hi,

Rockinger in germany sell 0,063 or 0,056mm wire. Is it ok? I know I have to calculate the windings new...

Quote from: Maik on January 30, 2012, 11:25:52 AM
Hi,

Rockinger in germany sell 0,063 or 0,056mm wire. Is it ok? I know I have to calculate the windings new...

No.  No it's not.

Quote from: shadowwolf665 on February 24, 2011, 02:03:08 PM
I know this thread hasn't been posted in for a while, but I'm not huge fan of starting a new topic with something that I've already found. Anyways, I have been watching many of the sustainer threads going about the internet, many of which PSW has been in. I have seen many people bash/troll/attack/etc. against him even though he's been encouraging others to use a basic system and add their own touches. So, before I continue, I would personally like to thank PSW for both guidance, the bobbin tutorial, and helping other people get in the right direction (even after having to dig through said post, but I understand his standing on it, so not trolling)
Which is the purpose of this current post.

The Driver
I'm starting with a Fetzer/Ruby for my sustainer driver, which I have done some research on (while also getting to know electronics better) and this is what I've drawn up:
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/FetzerRubyCombined.jpg)

But... Come to find out, it doesn't match Bancika's layout from DIY Layout Creator (a program that I downloaded, but I'm sad to say I don't remember where I got it):
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/FetzerRubyPic.jpg)

Which the wiring diagram is actually this:
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/FetzerRubyDia.jpg)

I also got help on the reference for wiring this up from Runoffgroove which host a good source of diagrams and perf layouts.
This is what I understand of the Fetzer/Ruby, that the Fetzer:
(http://www.runoffgroove.com/fetzervalve.png)
http://www.runoffgroove.com/fetzervalve.html

Drives the ruby:
(http://www.runoffgroove.com/ruby.png)
http://www.runoffgroove.com/ruby.html

Which should be able to drive the sustainer pickup. When I combined the two pictures above, I came out with the first picture I posted, but it didn't add up with Bancika's diagram, so, I redrew the perf Diagram (third pic)

The Bobbin
The practice bobbin I plan on using was taken out of a Squire Strat (or as I'm going to call it, the crap strat). I have already removed the tape and wires, which leaves me with this:
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/practicebobbin.jpg)

Now I know I have to use .2mm wire (32 gauge for the Americans and any other countries that use gauge size) and wrap around the bobbin in a depth of 3mm, while trying to also get an impedance (I believe is the word) of 8ohms. For some reason, I've seen 8kohms pop up here, when in the 300 page PG thread I read a constant 8ohms. so... I'll stick with my 8ohm for now.

Wiring
From what I understood from a wiring diagram on the 300page PG thread, and it was on the last page, the input stage of the F/R goes from the Volume Bridge Pot (which means it'll get its signal from the Bridge Pickup) and the very top ground (in the perf pic) comes from the same pot, but grounded to the bridge itself. The +9v and the ground below it (-9v) are pretty self explanatory. The -out (ground) and the +out go to a DPDT switch, which are then connected to the inner mounts. Then when the switch is pulled one way, the signal will go out normally to the proper start and finish, but when the switch is pulled the other way, two wires cross over so that they switch the signal to the start and finish, supposedly giving it the "harmonic" mode.

The reason for this post is that I'm checking to see if all my "research" is paying off before I dive head first into this project. I have the majority of my parts (missing the 68k resistor, and the 100uf electrolytic cap, and the 32 gauge wire. The sustainer is first going onto my Crap Strat:
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/CrapStrat.jpg)

And then once I'm happy with what I got, I plan on putting it on my Hando 2 Les Paul look alike
(http://i988.photobucket.com/albums/af5/ShadowWolf665/LesPaul.jpg)

and then quite possibly my friends Dean Razorback, which would be sweet lol

any and all advice is welcome. :icon_biggrin:

hallo
I've realized that circuit, I've need of wiring, how I can solder the driver and input.

IIRC...

take ''bridge'' selector switch to circuit input.

take circuit output to dpdt harmonic/fundamental switch to circuit out...


is it working on all 6 strings?.. top B+E?...hmmmm..... ;)