The other Ludwig threads are pretty long. I started this one to help focus on the debug and bringup of the clone boards.
Ry is first up with his clone; I suspect there will be some others in pretty short order. And awaaay we goooo...
QuoteIt's all soldered up. I plugged it in and...nothing. No LEDs, no sound, not even bypassed guitar signal.
I suspect there is something wrong in the power supply. I'll start debugging it on Monday, working through the voltages. I need to get a wah enclosure together and get the 5k pot in there as well.
You're on top of it Ry. If nothing at all happens, first suspect power supply. Well, that or wiring, which could include not getting power to it.
And that 5K pot in the wah enclosure presents the mechanical challenges of swapping it out and having to fit the gear to a different pot.
On that: too late for the board set, I did come up with a way to use the stock 100K wah pot. It presents the choice between doing mechanical work or electronics work. The reason to use a lower value pot instead of a higher value one in general is the resulting input and output impedances of the pot. The output impedance of a pot is added to any impedance the source feeding it has, and is variable between 0 and 1/4 of the pot's end-to-end value. In this circuit, the pot's added impedance is 1250 ohms. You can fake that by using a higher impedance pot and then buffering the DC level (which is what comes out of the stock pot in this circuit).
If you want to try hacking that in, I'll post it up on geofex. The circuit is an opamp and a few resistors and caps. What it does is use the existing voltage feed to a 100K pot instead of a 5K pot; the opamp buffers the wiper value of the 100K wah pot, making it into a low impedance suitable for driving the input to the rest of the Ludwig PII circuit.
QuoteAnd that 5K pot in the wah enclosure presents the mechanical challenges of swapping it out and having to fit the gear to a different pot.
Having done a series of different wah enclosure projects recently, I can only recommend one pot that will work well in a Crybaby shell for this project.
First choice - P.E.C. pots. The long shaft models. Completely enclosed, just about military grade. They are 2 watt linear pots, and I get them locally from Abra Electronics for around 9$. They carry 5K pots, as well. http://www.abra-electronics.com/ (http://www.abra-electronics.com/)
(http://www.abra-electronics.com/product_images/p/p2w50k-ls-06__13019_zoom.jpg)
The long shaft is desirable since you can cut it to the desired length. As for the gear, the pot is a smooth shaft, so there are two options; 1) get the gear that uses the compression pin to lock it in place. This requires that you transfer drill a hole from the gear, through the shaft. With a drill press, and care in the setup, easily doable. Or, get the flat-side gear, and the flatten a face on the shaft with a file, using a Dremel with a fine cutting disc to score the shaft for the circlip above the gear. Then, for either case, cut the excess shaft off with a Dremel. The treaded collor of these pots fits well into a Crybaby, as the picture below illustrates (showing gear w/compression pin);
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/PICT0114.jpg)
Possible second choice - Omeg conductive plastic pots, the modular ones, if you can find them. I've bought 22K ones from a guy in Britain, off EBay, but I don't know if he has 5K's. Anyway, they come in a long shaft form as well, all plastic construction, so not as "bulletproof" as the PEC's. Regardless, mine seems to be holding up so far, although I don't spend my days wanking on it. You can easily flatten a side on the shaft for the "flat-side shaft" gear, and as mentioned above, score the shaft for the circlip, as illustrated below;
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/PICT0100.jpg)
Just note that the gussets supporting the pot should be thinned down with a grinder in this case. The threaded collar on these pots is not as long as the PEC's, so a bit of thinning will avoid using the last threads on the pot. Otherwise, if available, works OK. I just doubt that you'll get the same life span out of these as the PEC's. The PEC's are H.D. mofo's.
All gears are available at Small Bear.
Hope this helps.
Dino
Good info on the mechanical changes.
Here's something I always do when I'm making custom mechanical parts that will be used and possibly wear out. I make two or more while I'm at it. I can generally make two or three about as easily as one, because the processes and procedures to make them are something that you discover on the first one, and get easier after that. Making a spare while you're at it is sometimes only a little more time and trouble than making one, and you have a ready spare. With the plastic pots, if you think they're going to wear out, buy two or three while you can get them. This only seems extravagant while you're at it. It'll feel really smart at the other end when you have a busted part to be replaced. 8-)
I'll post the info on the circuit. It's a good candidate for perfboard, being one 8-pin DIP and some other parts. The Ludwig using a 35V supply makes this a little bit of a PITA, because common opamps only go to 32V max on their power supplies, a bit less on their inputs. The opamp and two resistors are for what the circuit actually does; to get it to live it has to have a transistor, a zener, a capacitor, and two more resistors.
Interesting information on the 5k pot! I have a slightly different dilemma to overcome first. 10-12 years ago, I bought three empty vox wah shells with big plans of using them in the Ludwig build I was breadboarding at the time (yes, I'be been here before). The rocker has been removed from the base of all of them, so I need to go to the hardware store and find something to reconnect them at the pivot points. I am dreaming of some perfect diameter aluminum rod with female threaded ends that allow me to screw bolts into it, perfectly attaching them for years of solid use.
In reality, I will more than likely have to engineer something less thrilling. That's a task for tomorrow.
I have a short metal shaft 16mm 5k pot right now, so I'm going to go with it as I suddenly find that I really can't spare any change to go get other parts. Luckily, I bought all of the plastic and rubber wah parts from small bear a number of years ago. I have a couple other options sitting around if I run into serious issues.
Thanks for starting this thread, R.G.! I have a feeling that I'll be back multiple times...
I found an error in the Wiring Guide that was the cause of yesterday's non-functional pedal. On the left most side of the Console Board, the first three wire holes are for the power supply. The problem is with the first hole. This one is currently showing that it is connected to AC/DC1. This is actually the power supply ground connection, currently shown in hole 3.
I currently have the leftmost hole connected to ground, then the second connected to +48v DC, and the third hole unpopulated. And I also have a living, untuned Ludwig phase II!!!! ;D There are a few issues, one of the LEDs doesn't work and wow, it really needs to be tuned, but that's an adventure to start tomorrow.
And yes, the fuzz is wonderful!
Quote from: Ry on December 18, 2011, 02:59:37 PM
I have a short metal shaft 16mm 5k pot right now
That's what I used. Mine was a knurled shaft pot from Small Bear. It mounted just fine in my repurposed Rogue wah enclosure and accepted the shell's original gear.
Quote from: Ry on December 18, 2011, 09:54:52 PMAnd I also have a living, untuned Ludwig phase II!!!! ;D
Awesome! Congrats!
I keep meaning to re-tune mine & make another video...
CONGRATS RY!! Welcome to the Ludwig Club.
As for tuning, I wrote this up not too long ago; http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=94478.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=94478.0)
I validated the process on both my units. This process does need the use of an oscilloscope, and a good DMM. But, with a DMM alone, you should be able to get into the ball park with the voltages alone. Please note; I'm assuming that the voltages from the originals will correspond with the clones. If you do use my numbers, please let me know how it goes. The video in the post is of a unit after tuning using the method I wrote up.
well done ry!!!!
definitely check out dino's tuning tutorial, but then spend a little time playing with the pots...you may find there's "sweet spots" on some of them.
i'm in pennsylvania at the moment, but have been using my ludwig at home a bit...and think the main difference between my pII and dino's is the tuning of the treadle...his is tuned if i recall so the "yoy" occurs at the top (toe down) of the treadle...mine is tuned to go PAST that, so that i have about 1/4 to 1/3rd more travel in the upper range. too much in the LOW range can make it get microphonic, which is pretty cool in it's way...but i can get past yoy and seem to get a yay as well.
keep us posted, and welcome, pioneer...you're now posessing the second pII ever cloned!! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Ry on December 18, 2011, 09:54:52 PM
I found an error in the Wiring Guide that was the cause of yesterday's non-functional pedal. On the left most side of the Console Board, the first three wire holes are for the power supply. The problem is with the first hole. This one is currently showing that it is connected to AC/DC1. This is actually the power supply ground connection, currently shown in hole 3.
Dang! I'll update the docos. I *did* tell you that you'd be a pioneer, didn't I? :icon_lol:
QuoteAnd I also have a living, untuned Ludwig phase II!!!! ;D There are a few issues, one of the LEDs doesn't work and wow, it really needs to be tuned, but that's an adventure to start tomorrow.
Which LED? It's always possible that it's another bug. But do check for the LED being turned 180 degrees in the hole. That's one of my favorite jokes to play on myself.
Ludwig Phase II Clone buildit article updated at http://www.geofex.com (http://www.geofex.com) with latest info.
http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig%20Phase%20II%20Clone.pdf (http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig%20Phase%20II%20Clone.pdf)
Thanks for all the comments, Keppy, Jimi, Dino, and R.G! This is quite the club to be a pioneer in!
QuoteAs for tuning, I wrote this up not too long ago; http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=94478.0
I validated the process on both my units. This process does need the use of an oscilloscope, and a good DMM. But, with a DMM alone, you should be able to get into the ball park with the voltages alone. Please note; I'm assuming that the voltages from the originals will correspond with the clones. If you do use my numbers, please let me know how it goes. The video in the post is of a unit after tuning using the method I wrote up.
Dino, I read through the tuning post over the weekend (and listened to the impressive demo). Tuning will be my next stop this afternoon. I have a couple DMMs and a couple scopes to chose from. Unfortunately, my best scope only has one channel. My dual channel one is an old stereo scope from the 80's (like a Techniques or something) that should work well for the low-speed oscillators in this pedal.
QuoteAnd I also have a living, untuned Ludwig phase II!!!! There are a few issues, one of the LEDs doesn't work and wow, it really needs to be tuned, but that's an adventure to start tomorrow.
Which LED? It's always possible that it's another bug. But do check for the LED being turned 180 degrees in the hole. That's one of my favorite jokes to play on myself.
R.G., the non-functional LED is LED 8, connected to the Counter switch. I need to buzz out the switch again, I had to ream out the pads for the board mounted switches quite a bit, I may have missed a connection when I had to route the traces with wire. I also see that there is a jumper that it is connected to, I will double check it as well.
I went to the local hardware store with my empty Vox wah case and found that a #40 1/4 x 3 inch bolt will perfectly connect the base to the top foot pedal without any bolt slopping over the egdes of the base. Now I can wire up the rocker pot correctly before I start tuning it in.
No worries about the LED, it was a shorted out part. It was new from the baggie, I've never seen one fail, but I'm sure there are some cases of it.
Errors on BOM:
2.7K R48- R70 should be R48-R63, R65-R70
47K RF+3 should be deleted. It's actually 68K (already listed there)
470K RF32 should be R32
PNP EBC should all be QF instead of Q
PCB problems:
Holes for Q6 should be bigger
C12 should have the same footprint as C8
I may work up a spreadsheet with the parts I used so they can be easily ordered from Mouser.
ron, that would be awesome..
much easier than spending hours picking parts like always seems to happen to me :icon_redface:
despite having an original, i can't wait to get my hands on the ol' soldering iron and raise this phoenix.
;)
Quote from: theehman on December 30, 2011, 12:58:52 PM
Errors on BOM:
2.7K R48- R70 should be R48-R63, R65-R70
47K RF+3 should be deleted. It's actually 68K (already listed there)
470K RF32 should be R32
PNP EBC should all be QF instead of Q
PCB problems:
Holes for Q6 should be bigger
C12 should have the same footprint as C8
Thanks for checking and posting. I'll go beat this against the documentation.
QuoteI may work up a spreadsheet with the parts I used so they can be easily ordered from Mouser.
That would be a nice thing to do for the guys who build their clones in the next month or so.
However, I have some experiences you may want to take note of. I used to provide Mouser part number lists for effects buildit writeups. I quit that because Mouser changes its suppliers and parts numbers on an ongoing basis as their stock shifts. I still get emails about Mouser not carrying this or that part number, since they've changed it since I did the listing. Sometimes these emails are for lists put together years ago. Nothing dies on the internet - it just becomes misinformation and lives on.
I concluded, sadly, that the only real answer was for people who build to learn to order whatever part number parts are available *now*. Maybe there ought to be warnings and expiration dates on ordering parts lists. That would still get you emails in a year or two saying that Mouser doesn't have X or Y, and could you look up the current number. :icon_biggrin:
lol....
rg....you're killing me. ordered stuff from mouser to build a clone(d) theory, right? went thru and tediously checked and shopped and bought the best stuff i could find.
made SURE it was STOCKED, and they had some...and paid electronically.
the stuff shows up a couple days later, and even THEN some of it ended up backordered. :icon_mrgreen:
arrrrrrrrrrrrrgh...
but...
ya go thru the process, it gets easier, ya definitely learn more, and can find way better deals....i buy stuff for 6 cents that would cost a buck at rat shack.
these days, that's important.
now if only their computer could keep up with my mouse clickin'...lol
OK, I got those bugs checked out. We have definitely proved that I can't type and can't process lists. :icon_biggrin:
The parts list has been updated and the changes are on line at geofex.
The PCB problems are harder. For this board rev, they are what they are, so builders will have to cope with the hole sizes for Q6 and the capacitor body size for C12. They can be fixed on any hypothetical future PCBs (which might or might not ever be ordered).
For the Q6 holes: all the connections to the transistor are on the bottom/copper side, so through-PCB connections are not an issue. I recommend drilling out the holes a little to fit the transistor you get. Do this gently: don't drill away the pads.
For C12: The top/component side of the PCB is very tight there. That's probably why I didn't change the size. There are three options here.
1. Get a 47uF/50V cap in a 6mm or 6.3mm x 11mm long package; Mouser stocks several that fit. This cap is inside the 35V regulator, so the voltage won't go over 50V, and it'll work fine. I always put more voltage on the inputs of power supplies because of possible voltage transients on the supply. I don't know for sure that's what I was thinking (it was longer ago than yesterday :icon_lol: ) but it makes a good story, doesn't it?
2. Get a 47uF/63V cap in the 6.3mm x 11mm package. Mouser has fewer, but still several of these, notably:
647-UFW1J470MED
647-UVZ1J470MED
3. Use the 8mm size package and mount it on the bottom/copper side of the PCB.
For C12 I used the same 8mm size as the others mounted on top. It fit fine, just a little narrow on the lead spacing.
All
Please note:
There is an unmarked, unused resistor position next to and in parallel with RF33.
Andy
R18, 120k 0.25W missing from BOM
Quote from: UKToecutter on December 30, 2011, 05:27:16 PM
R18, 120k 0.25W missing from BOM
I had R18 written on my sheet but I forgot why I wrote it there. Thanks for reminding me.
PCB: holes for 1N4004 are too small.
1N4004's must vary on lead diameter.
Mine went in but they were a bit 'tight'
Might be a good idea to mount the trimpots on the bottom of the console PCB. It would make tuning possible without dismantling the pedal.
QF+1 missing from BOM (NPN EBC)
just got my boards today and gonna get started on it really soon. wondering if its possible to use the m-audio expression pedal (ex-p) for the manual control. they are about $30 on ebay, and was thinking it looked better than wasting a wah enclosure.
The PCB issues have been corrected on the layout for the next version.
I'll update BOM with QF+1.
Quote from: Seven64 on December 30, 2011, 08:22:20 PM
wondering if its possible to use the m-audio expression pedal (ex-p) for the manual control. they are about $30 on ebay, and was thinking it looked better than wasting a wah enclosure.
Any rocker that has a 5K linear pot, or can be modified to do that will work. I don't know what pot value is in the M-audio exppedal. Pretty much any linear pot value can be used with the buffer circuit as mentioned earlier.
I'm inserting a collected errata page on the instructions for this board set, which I dub "the UK Boards".
Trimpots can go on the bottom for access.
nice. if anyone doesnt get it by the time i get around to it ill pioneer up that one, as its only $30 which is generally cheaper then i can find a wah for. and it already has the cable as well ;)
im excited to get started on this one. except i dont have room on my board for it....
On the issue of using expression pedals with the Ludwig clone: I found this listing of expression pedal pot values by sonda01 on Harmony Central.
QuoteRoland RV-5 - 10k linear
Line6 EX-1 - 10k linear
Mission EP-L6 - 10k linear
Moog EP-2 - 50k linear (reducable)
M-Audio EX-P - 10k linear
Korg EXP-2 - 50k linear
Boss EV-5 - 10k linear
Boss EV-7 - 10k linear ("extra range" pot adds up to 50k ohms)
Boss FV-50L - 50k linear
Proel Volume Pedal - 100k linear
TC Electronic X1 - 25k log
Ernie Ball VP jr. (active) - 25k log
Ernie Ball VP jr. (passive) - 250k log
Kurzweil CC-1 - 20k linear
Pigtronix EP-1 - 20k
Bespeco VM18L - 20k
None of them are 5K linear. However, the 10K's might work as is with some tweaking. All of them would work (although weirdly for log pots) with the buffer circuit, I think.
"I'm inserting a collected errata page on the instructions for this board set, which I dub "the UK Boards".
R.G.
It's a good thing that I'm not sensitive........
:-)
Andy
AWK! Sorry. It's true what they say, us engineers are clueless about people. :icon_biggrin:
I hereby un-dub them and re-dub them "R.G.'s Second Attempt". :icon_lol:
I vote for a blue solder mask on the next batch!!!
I'm good with that!
You know, one of the great things about this build is that there are very few 'special' components required.
Apart from the switches and the trim pots most of the components came out of my stock bins.
Even the 2N5551's and the 2N5401 are soooo cheap that I bought 100 each at about £7.00 total.
Great work with the layout RG and total respect to Keppy, Dino and PinkJim for getting it off the ground.
My boards are stuffed, I've centre punched my case and now I have to wait for mouser to get the 3PDT switches into stock.
What we need now is a 'son of Phase II' to bring it right up to modern standards.
Andy
Adding transistor pin voltages to the buildit manual.
...oops, did I say "manual"?? :icon_eek:
Here's where I'm up to:
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj87/THC-Toecutter/IMG_3286.jpg)
Andy
Nice work indeed.
Quote from: Seven64 on December 31, 2011, 12:31:12 AM
nice. if anyone doesnt get it by the time i get around to it ill pioneer up that one, as its only $30 which is generally cheaper then i can find a wah for. and it already has the cable as well ;)
Stereo cable? Don't forget, this one needs three conductors!
Nice looking build!
R.G.
What forward voltage and working current have you assumed for the LED's?
I think I guessed at about 2V, although with 40V+/- to play with, it's almost immaterial. I didn't want to load the regulated 35V, so I just glommed on lots of resistor in series and used several 1/4W's to get the power dissipation that causes. The suggested supply is way underused for power, so I just wasted it in resistors.
Call it 46V/8.1K = 5.6ma per LED, about.
All,
It's New Years Eve and I'm off out for the evening.
Just wanted to wish you all a Happy New Year.
All the best
Andy
Lookin' sweet Andy.
It's a shame, I just have too many projects going right now, so I have to put this one in the cue. I'll probably get to it around February, or March.
Got the Foxx Guitar Synth (now dubbed the Mutroxx), followed but a Meat Sphere, and then a Dipthonizer. Although the Dipthonizer might get knocked out of place, there was a recall on the PCB's from Madbean :icon_sad:.
But most of all, I want to breadboard the WEM Project V fuzz. I've never tried an 8 transistor fuzz :icon_eek:, and this one looks just mental. Real exotic.
A very Happy New Years to one and all. Please, don't drink and drive, arrive alive :icon_cool:.
Just a minor edit but the power supply described on page 15 is actually 0.125A, not 01.25A.
I have nothing to do at work today so I'm working on the BOM spreadsheet in Google Docs.
Thanks. Correction is in source, will be in next release of manual.
FWIW, here's a link to order all the parts you need from Mouser. It has everything except the recommended 1590D chassis, LEDs (since color is a personal choice) and footswitches. I included Neutrik open frame jacks (4 mono and 1 stereo), plus a DC jack to match the recommended power supply. RG recommends changing the plug on the power supply to keep it from being used with other size-compatible devices so if you want to do that, you'll need to add your choice of connector and jack to the list.
http://www.mouser.com:80/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d (http://www.mouser.com:80/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d)
Please inform me of any errors so I can update it.
Quote from: theehman on January 03, 2012, 11:06:41 AM
FWIW, here's a link to order all the parts you need from Mouser. It has everything except the recommended 1590D chassis, LEDs (since color is a personal choice) and footswitches. I included Neutrik open frame jacks (4 mono and 1 stereo), plus a DC jack to match the recommended power supply. RG recommends changing the plug on the power supply to keep it from being used with other size-compatible devices so if you want to that, you'll need to add your choice of connector and jack to the list.
http://www.mouser.com:80/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d (http://www.mouser.com:80/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d)
Please inform me of any errors so I can update it.
I love you Ron, you just made my life a little easier ;D
Got my 1590D from Mouser.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Hammond-Manufacturing/1590DGY/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsrGrAVj6eTvXxo3S2oazAEitGll9YM6Xc%3d
am i really gonna have to go find different 4004's? should i just drill out the holes?
Quote from: Seven64 on January 16, 2012, 02:45:06 AM
am i really gonna have to go find different 4004's? should i just drill out the holes?
Just drill them out.
ok, so i forgot to order the 2.2uf electrolytic caps. i have some here, but they are only 25v, not the 50v ones the list calls for. i see that the 10uf's are only 25v tho, so is it ok to use the 25v 2.2uf caps?
Which part number caps, in particular?
Some caps are OK at lower voltages, some are not. This circuit runs from 35V +/- normally, so 35V parts are marginal. Hence the use of the next standard voltage up, 50V. However, some parts run at lower voltages internally and you might get away with 25V. Gotta look at each on.
I'm working the booth at NAMM this week, so my ability to get back with moment by moment tech answers will be impaired.
all of the 2.2's. c1, cf14, cf23, cf32, cf22
C1 - Probably lives, but maybe for a short time; not good for it. It will sit at nearly 35V, but current limited through a 1M resistor.
CF14, CF23 - they'll be fine with 25V; I originally spec'd them at 25V, but changed to 50V for consistency.
CF22, CF32 - I'm away from my sim tools and test equipment. Put them in and measure DC across them. If it's under 25 in operation, it'll be fine. I'm guessing they will, but do measure.
For C1, if you're desperate not to order caps, use four 2.2's, in series/parallel. Or put this in while you're waiting for your order of the right part.
ill just head down to the store and pick some up this week. i still need some various resistors as well.
what booth are you at? sorry that i don't know. i am sure i have read who you work for on this forum before, but i'm just curious.
I work for Visual Sound. We're in 5825. We have a couple of new toys to look at if you want to come by.
What are the jacks on the back labeled as? I know there's Input, Output, Expression. What are the other 2?
There's a high Z and low Z input. Seems like there was a second output, perhaps dry or "stereo". I'm working out of my laptop and don't have my full set of design info with me.
Ok. Looked through the material again and found them.
High-Z In
Low-Z In
Main Out
Stereo Out
EXP IN
Thanks for the quick reply, RG!
stereo only works when the stereo switch is on....then it outputs the dry input.
remember, for extra mojo, on this thing, it lights up weird...you're in bypass when the effect switch is lit. ;)
the other switches all are normal...when engaged, the corresponding light lites up.
lookng forward to starting the build soon...be nice to add a pII to my pedalboard rather than endangering the original.
;)
hoping i oriented the bd677 correctly. about to try and drill out my enclosure.... wish me luck!!
took me 3 tries to get it drilled correctly. how do you guys drill this so easily? i drilled 1 side and wasnt even close, so i drilled out the bottom and was lots closer, increased the hole size for the toggles and it fits! now to do the leds and stomps....
Quote from: Seven64 on January 24, 2012, 08:43:15 PM
took me 3 tries to get it drilled correctly. how do you guys drill this so easily? i drilled 1 side and wasnt even close, so i drilled out the bottom and was lots closer
This is a good place to insert some mechanical advice.
Drilling many holes in alignment is hard. I did the hole layout template specifically because of that. Otherwise, it would have required laying out parallel lines and careful measurements along them on the top of the box from distances. If you're not a machinist, hobby modeller, or skilled cabinet maker, the chances of getting this wrong are high.
The template encases that in a single bit of printing. It works well, but you have to be aware that not all printers print it at exactly the right size. That's what the few distance measurements are for - checking the printer scaling. You have to check it in both X and Y directions, because some printers have different scaling in each direction. Once you get it printed the right size and checked, the intermediate measurements should be very close.
Actually drilling the holes on size is also tough. The best way I've found is to locate the drill template on the top of the box, then to use something very sharp, like a filed-down nail point to make a little indentation as close to the center of the drill-point locations on the printed template as I possibly can. Using magnifiers to get this right helps. Once there is a little mark in the center of the places where the holes go, use a center punch to make a deeper dent in the first indentation. This will guide the bit.
Now comes the drilling. I like to drill a guide hole, and I like to use a drill press. Hole location with a hand drill is **entirely** dependent on a nice deep (and accurate!) centerpunch hole. In a drill press, you have better control and may be able to finess it a little bit. But drill a small hole, about 0.050 to 0.062 (1.2 to 1.5mm) in the center punch dent. When this is done, the center of the hole is located as far as drills are concerned. You then drill the holes with bigger drills to the final size. The location accuracy is much better with the first "starter" drill.
Be very, very careful with any power tools, especially drill presses.
yea. my printer didn't scale it properly so i tried to lay it out by hand. i am on a jankity laptop, as my desktop with all of my software crashed. i did the centerpunch and guide hole method yesterday, and it turned out well but i decided to experiment with just using my step bit instead. i guess thats what i get for rushing it.
Quote from: Seven64 on January 24, 2012, 11:25:30 PM
yea. my printer didn't scale it properly so i tried to lay it out by hand. i am on a jankity laptop, as my desktop with all of my software crashed. i did the centerpunch and guide hole method yesterday, and it turned out well but i decided to experiment with just using my step bit instead. i guess thats what i get for rushing it.
At the very worst, with a Hammond box you can cut out almost the entire top side and bolt a suitably-shaped flat plate on top of it, replacing all the holes. In fact, you could more easily etch/paint/silkscreen/otherwise decorate the flat plate than the basic box itself. It can replace a lot of sins.
Quote from: R.G. on January 24, 2012, 11:57:11 PM
Quote from: Seven64 on January 24, 2012, 11:25:30 PM
yea. my printer didn't scale it properly so i tried to lay it out by hand. i am on a jankity laptop, as my desktop with all of my software crashed. i did the centerpunch and guide hole method yesterday, and it turned out well but i decided to experiment with just using my step bit instead. i guess thats what i get for rushing it.
At the very worst, with a Hammond box you can cut out almost the entire top side and bolt a suitably-shaped flat plate on top of it, replacing all the holes. In fact, you could more easily etch/paint/silkscreen/otherwise decorate the flat plate than the basic box itself. It can replace a lot of sins.
I actually planned on doing this to re-purpose a hammond box I've already drilled for another pedal.
I dropped the control board inside the chassis. Once I got it where it had plenty of clearance and was centered from side to side I marked the standoff hole above the controls and drilled it. After that I put the diagram on top, dropped a bolt through the diagram into the standoff hole and taped it down straight. I then used a punch to mark all the holes, removed the paper, and drilled the holes.
That's the same general idea behind the centerlines.
The centerlines of the drilling diagram are designed to coincide with the centerlines of the box. So you (carefully) mark the centerlines of the box in two directions, cut out those alignment holes on the paper template, then align the centerlines on the paper template to the centerlines on the box.
That way, it lines up the hole pattern up and down as well as rotationally.
I created the drilling template by making a mechanical drawing of the box projected through the top surface, then overlaying the PCB location features onto the box drawing. I picked out the centerlines of both and lined them up, and finally erased the extraneous box features.
Quote from: theehman on January 03, 2012, 11:06:41 AM
FWIW, here's a link to order all the parts you need from Mouser. It has everything except the recommended 1590D chassis, LEDs (since color is a personal choice) and footswitches. I included Neutrik open frame jacks (4 mono and 1 stereo), plus a DC jack to match the recommended power supply. RG recommends changing the plug on the power supply to keep it from being used with other size-compatible devices so if you want to do that, you'll need to add your choice of connector and jack to the list.
http://www.mouser.com:80/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d (http://www.mouser.com:80/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d)
Please inform me of any errors so I can update it.
ron, this is awesome, thank you so much! :icon_smile:
First off thank you EH MAN for posting that mouser part list!
I have my PCBs and Im about to order my parts, I have some last question for those who have a completed phase synth:
I was hoping to take a short cut for my project I was wondering if anyone could describe what the animation footswitch does exactly, I cant seem to pick it out technically from the demo videos. Does it only engage the LFO to control the filter? does the wah pedal do anything when it is engaged? Id like to know Im not completely interested in having the wah pedal unless it can control the lfo rate. Also, if I do without the wah pedal should I add a 5k pot anyhow to control the center frequency? Would I still technically need an animation switch if I dont use the wah pedal part?
hey bro,
the animation footswitch kicks the LFO(which ramps up or down depending on whether you turn it on or off. if the animation switch is set to slow, when engaged, the lfo will ramp up to whatever speed the modulation speed is set at slowly....if set to fast, will do opposite.
you NEED the wah or you cannot sweep the formants. you can use it as a wah/phoneme pedal with the animation on or off.
all the animation really does is use the lfo to sweep the formants. when the animation is engaged, you use the wah to sweep the FREQUENCY of the modulation. not the speed.
you can do some sick things with it when set right, like make sounds appear to come ahead of or behind you. the animation alone is basically nothing more than a fuzz repeat, like the repeat percussion on an old electronic organ.
trust me...without the wah pedal, you won't get 1/64th of what this thing can do.
you can use the formant filter modulation section to adjust the strength (depth) of the modulation and it's speed, and the intensity of fuzz repeat. this is all controlled by the animation footswitch.
the whole thing after that is the wah, as the fuzz by itself isn't very useful and very similar to a dano tripple wah's fuzz.
while you CAN adjust the level of the fuzz, and choose normal or "vocal", it's really just there to enhance the formants.
live, using my original pII i can get sounds that would be hard pressed to get out of a synth...and i've owned moogs arps rolands electrocomps and sequential circuit analog synths.
it's pretty phat, dude.
hope this helps. ;)
just build it!!!
:D
as for adjusting with a trimmer? you gotta talk to rg or dino about that one...i'm still too much of a newbe.
You can remove the animation switch if you just wire it always on. You'll have to keep the pot from the treadle to set the frequency range of the animation sweep, but you can move that to the console. You can then move the rate pot into the treadle.
However, this will be tricky given that the boards are made to have specific spots in specific places. I don't know if that's a layer of complexity that you want to add to this already difficult build.
also, kicking the animation in or out and the ramping is a good part of what makes the effect so cool.
i'd build it stock....then if ya don't like it, simplify it. but you really (imho) gotta experience the animal as it is to really grok what it's about.
if need be, i'll shoot another video focusing just on the animation and treadle for you to see the interaction between the two.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on March 28, 2012, 08:59:12 PM
if need be, i'll shoot another video focusing just on the animation and treadle for you to see the interaction between the two.
Geez, you read my mind bro. I can shoot one as well, if you're too busy. Let me know.
i'm up to my eyeballs and losing my mind trying to debug a diphonizer...so if you can do it dino, i'd appreciate it immensely!
the diph is madbean's "honeydripper"...it's working, kinda...but it's not sweeping. when it DOES sweep (which only seems to happen when i mess with one of the QOA's) tho, it sounds EXCELLENT..
figure i need to hone my chops a bit more before i tackle the pII.
wow thanks! ok so I really want to rig up the wah pedal now, sounds like a lot of fun sounds, the stereo output is actually very appealing to me now that you mention that it can get sounds to change their place in the room... I cant wait to assemble this thing
I'll post a video, concentrating on the pedal part of the Ludwig, tomorrow.
Stay tuned....
char, the stereo out is just unaffected, nothing special.
the wah pedal/filter combo however CAN make stuff seem like it's swirling around, but not left to right, but forward to backwards...it can sound like it's coming from behind you or in front of you, sometimes INSIDE you. it's pretty hip, and the demos we do here can't really capture that. but it's pretty amazing live when ya see people look behind them, ;)
I have bought the boards from someone on this forum and I'm about to order parts for building it.
The power supply that R.G. have suggested
https://ca.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=GS06U-8P1Jvirtualkey63430000virtualkey709-GS06U-8P1J (https://ca.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=GS06U-8P1Jvirtualkey63430000virtualkey709-GS06U-8P1J)
is not available from mouser right now and I'm looking for something similar to do the job.
Will this one works for the project?
http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mean-Well/GS15U-8P1J/?qs=9v8X2fPoQt4psQl2hoV71oUtRLBDaQEG1nAn5F9f074%3d (http://ca.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mean-Well/GS15U-8P1J/?qs=9v8X2fPoQt4psQl2hoV71oUtRLBDaQEG1nAn5F9f074%3d)
Quote from: charmonder on March 28, 2012, 02:37:39 PM
First off thank you EH MAN for posting that mouser part list!
I have my PCBs and Im about to order my parts, I have some last question for those who have a completed phase synth:
I was hoping to take a short cut for my project I was wondering if anyone could describe what the animation footswitch does exactly, I cant seem to pick it out technically from the demo videos. Does it only engage the LFO to control the filter? does the wah pedal do anything when it is engaged? Id like to know Im not completely interested in having the wah pedal unless it can control the lfo rate. Also, if I do without the wah pedal should I add a 5k pot anyhow to control the center frequency? Would I still technically need an animation switch if I dont use the wah pedal part?
Hi guys,
Here is the video, as promised. I explain the interaction of the pedal with the unit, and animation. As you'll see, it doesn't control the LFO rate, but rather, what part of the spectrum the LFO will work in.
Any other questions... don't hesitate.
Cheers,
Dino
great demo as always, dino
see...you hear the lfo going e o e o e o e o...the ffm depth is as dino shows how intense the lfo sweeps the modulation
the speed controls how fast it goes yoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoy
the pedal determines what FREQUENCY the yoyoyoyoyoy happens at.
thanks brother!! ;)
Quote from: Vince_b on March 30, 2012, 03:26:31 PM
The power supply that R.G. have suggested is not available from mouser right now and I'm looking for something similar to do the job.
Will this one works for the project?
I think it will, yes.
Something I discovered recently, and I'm using it for my Ring Stinger clone project.
I've found a really nice enclosure, courtesy of a gentleman in the UK (I believe). It's a larger than the recommended Hammond model, so it will adequately handle the Phase II. I took the liberty of taking some pictures, along with the two Phase II boards laying inside, so everyone can get an idea of the scale;
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/DSCF0797.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/DSCF0798.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/DSCF0799.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/DSCF0800.jpg)
The external dimensions are; 8.74" X 5.75" X 2.17" (222 X 146 X 55 mm).
I found it at Newark, it's made by MULTICOMP . The Newark P/N is 55T2820 ($23.31) for the plain aluminium, 55T2821 ($25.08) for the black, and 55T2822 ($25.08) for grey. The MULTICOMP P/N's are; G124MF (plain), G124MFBK (black), and G124MFLG (grey). The "F" in all the P/N's stands for "Flange". For a non-flanged box, omit the "F".
I don't think you'll find an enclosure this roomy at this price in the Hammond line. Especially considering that this enclosure is also watertight, the cover comes with a rubber o-ring that seals the works.
Although the UK suppliers, Rapid and Farnell, carry the same model without the flanged sides, Newark only has this model with the flanges. So, you could cut them off quite easily with a disc grinder, cut-off saw, etc. Or, use them as I have done here, to give it a bit of an "industrial/rack mount" look. The flanges are already drilled, at 3.5" centers. The handles come from Home Hardware, with... well look at that!, 3.5" centers! :icon_mrgreen:
Cheers,
Dino
wow, nice find dino, that looks just about perfect...and some ROOM to mount components...well done!!
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on April 02, 2012, 11:30:40 AM
wow, nice find dino, that looks just about perfect...and some ROOM to mount components...well done!!
Yup, kinda like my old '64 Bel-Air. Tool box on the fender skirt, lunch box on the air cleaner, and me, standing next to the block, feet on the ground either side of the A arms. :icon_mrgreen:
dude, you would LOVE my roomate's 68 440 roadrunner...but no room in there to stand!! lol
rips and snorts like a pack of harleys thru a wall of marshalls dimed.
you know, like a skyripper or something. ;)
Awesome! Thanks for all this info, and nice heads up on that box! I love the rails.
I'm having trouble finding a 48v dc adapter for this project.
What's the minimum voltage this circuit needs to work good.
I can find 24v adapters really easy here in the Netherlands.
RonaldB
Quote from: RonaldB on April 15, 2012, 03:10:11 AM
I'm having trouble finding a 48v dc adapter for this project.
What's the minimum voltage this circuit needs to work good.
I can find 24v adapters really easy here in the Netherlands.
It needs about 36-38V minimum to work as per the original. If your question is "Will this work right on 24Vdc?", then the answer is no. If you are really stuck finding a 48Vdc adapter, you can use an adapter that puts out 28-30V *AC* and a full wave bridge rectifier to generate the proper DC voltage on the boards, much like the original did.
Quote from: R.G. on April 15, 2012, 09:58:15 AM
Quote from: RonaldB on April 15, 2012, 03:10:11 AM
I'm having trouble finding a 48v dc adapter for this project.
What's the minimum voltage this circuit needs to work good.
I can find 24v adapters really easy here in the Netherlands.
It needs about 36-38V minimum to work as per the original. If your question is "Will this work right on 24Vdc?", then the answer is no. If you are really stuck finding a 48Vdc adapter, you can use an adapter that puts out 28-30V *AC* and a full wave bridge rectifier to generate the proper DC voltage on the boards, much like the original did.
In fact, I believe the components are all still in place on the console board to accept AC power without any modifications whatsoever, if it comes from a center-tapped transformer.
They are. Actually, it might even work with a non-CT, but it would be half-wave-rectified.
In retrospect, I should have put a 6-pin DIP full wave bridge on there for just this kind of emergency. I'll do that if I ever upgrade the PCB.
I'm a little bummed that we don't have even a single build of this yet. I know, I should get off my duff and build mine. But I have an excuse. I've been prototyping candidates for next year's effects lineup. Yep - building effects is getting in the way of building effects. :icon_lol:
Quote from: R.G. on April 15, 2012, 05:19:29 PM
They are. Actually, it might even work with a non-CT, but it would be half-wave-rectified.
In retrospect, I should have put a 6-pin DIP full wave bridge on there for just this kind of emergency. I'll do that if I ever upgrade the PCB.
I'm a little bummed that we don't have even a single build of this yet. I know, I should get off my duff and build mine. But I have an excuse. I've been prototyping candidates for next year's effects lineup. Yep - building effects is getting in the way of building effects. :icon_lol:
I've been waiting for a friend to label and clearcoat my housing but he's apparently not in any hurry.
Quote from: R.G. on April 15, 2012, 05:19:29 PM
I'm a little bummed that we don't have even a single build of this yet.
Me too!
Quote
I know, I should get off my duff and build mine. But I have an excuse. I've been prototyping candidates for next year's effects lineup. Yep - building effects is getting in the way of building effects. :icon_lol:
Same here, although I'm not building anything anyone's buying. It's just that with other stuff waiting to be built, it's hard to justify ANOTHER Phase II! ;D
I'm very eager to start building mine but I have to wait for the boards. I bought them from a forum member overseas and after 3 weeks I didn't received it yet. The wait is killing me!
Mine is so close to being done. I just need to get the animation working. Maybe next weekend...
i got the boards, and all i gotta do now is when i can afford it order parts. gonna get as much as possible from tayda, the rest from mouser i guess. been so busy building easy things...
still intimidated by this one a bit!
I finally received my boards today. I haven't start populating them yet and I already have a question. Why the last two pots (bypass balance and low-Z balance) are not aligned with the other pots? It looks like it would have been easy to make them all aligned.
@ Dino,
Check this out for future projects ;)
http://www.newark.com/hammond/1550g/enclosure-instrument-aluminum/dp/57R3912?in_merch=Popular%20Enclosures
Exact same dimensions... from Hammond.... without the flanges.... and cheaper! ;D
That was done in my build so I could fit in the labels on the different control sections, as seen here:
(http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd480/KepFX/Pedals/file-14.jpg)
R.G. left it that way because he liked having the "set and forget" controls offset. If you're not using board-mounted pots, it should be easy enough to move those two holes level with the others.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on April 18, 2012, 03:42:53 PM
@ Dino,
Check this out for future projects ;)
http://www.newark.com/hammond/1550g/enclosure-instrument-aluminum/dp/57R3912?in_merch=Popular%20Enclosures
Exact same dimensions... from Hammond.... without the flanges.... and cheaper! ;D
Nice catch dude! I hadn't seen that one. As for cheaper, yeah, a bit. Actually about the same price as the Multicomp's flangeless model.
At least now we have an alternative to the flanges.
Once again, nice find. Thanks a ton for sharing. :icon_cool:
Quote from: Keppy on April 18, 2012, 03:51:13 PM
R.G. left it that way because he liked having the "set and forget" controls offset. If you're not using board-mounted pots, it should be easy enough to move those two holes level with the others.
That make sense.
But I will probably put them all on the same level. Like you said, with non-board mounted pots it won't be hard to do.
I have an other quick question. There is a resistor labeled "Ralt1" on the console board, is it the spot for Rtaper 33k?
And there is an unlabeled spot for a resistor just to the right of RF33, should it remains unused (I'm not talking about the one next to R74 in the top right corner)?
if it follows the original nomenclature, that may be where there was a resistor piggybacked on some of the units we examined.
That might explain this particular unlabeled spot for a resistor. After looking at the build document again I realised that Ralt1 is only needed if you use a particular transistor and I found the correct place to put Rtaper. I couldn't find it before because it wasn't labeled on the physical board, only in the build document parts placement diagram.
diggit...well, remember, you guys are the first to take the plunge, so those of us holding back are waiting to see what you guys do....and learning from it all.
somehow,i gotta condense ALL the info into one file we can host somewhere for posterity. ;)
There were a couple of quirks in that layout. I think most of them got documented in the latest version of the documentation. You might go to geofex and get the latest. It's possible some of them were missed. This layout did in fact verify some of my concerns about the Ludwig when I first looked at it. It's big, and complicated.
If you'll post any oddities you find, I'll try to work through them. I'm at a bit of a disadvantage on this, as I'm working the booth at the Dallas Guitar Show this weekend, so I'll have to follow this in bits and pieces for the next couple of days.
There are some places on the PCB where I diverged from the original design by putting on the PCB some mods that Ludwig did as after-PCB mods. I did the PCBs so the original circuits could be followed 100%, but added locations for putting the off-PCB mods there as well. So there are additional places for parts on the PCB. In addition, I put the ability to use a 2N6027 PUT instead of the 2N2646 UJT in the animation section, which added a couple of resistor positions. I think the latest PCB documentation at Geofex addresses these.
But give a look and compare. I would normally build up my board set and list any bugs or changes needed, but I'm realistically not going to have time to do that for a couple of months yet.
This project is so big and it haven't been built by many people yet so I'm not surprized that there might still be a few quirks that haven't been found in the layout. By the way, how many people have completed their clone right now aside from Keppy?
I'm going to list every bugs that I find to makes everyone knows about them and you will be able to correct them in the documentation when you will have the time. There is no rush, as far as I know I might be the only one working on this project right now.
At the moment, the only thing that I found that should be added to the build document is a note saying that Rtaper isn't labeled on the actual pcb. To know where it has to go, you have to look at the parts placement diagram. It ain't a big problem, but I stared at the boards for a long time looking for where to put this resistor before trying to find the right place by looking at the diagram.
Some other things that people should take note:
- Q2 is not labeled on the pcb. But as it is the only TO-18 transistor, it's not hard to find where it should go.
- On the Bill of Material, Q3-8 are listed as NPN TO92 but it should read instead: "Q3,Q4,Q7,Q8" because Q6 is already listed as NPN TO-220.
- The switches listed on the Bill of Material do NOT all have the same mounting height. The 3PDT are actually taller than the DPDT. To make sure to get them all at the same height you have to mount them on the enclosure FIRST, then solder them to the pcb. Otherwise they won't fit right.
Thanks for the check on the parts list.
I also found these adapters at Digikey. They should be fine for this project, and at a very decent price.
http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/PSAA20R-480/993-1045-ND/2384488 (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/PSAA20R-480/993-1045-ND/2384488)
http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/PSA15R-480PV/993-1117-ND/2635779 (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/PSA15R-480PV/993-1117-ND/2635779)
The prongs are sold seperately;
http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/RPA/993-1054-ND/2384507 (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/RPA/993-1054-ND/2384507)
The beauty here is for our overseas brothers. These adapters will work automatically from 90 to 260 vac, and the appropriate prongs can be purchased to suit the country's power outlet. About the same price as Mouser, but I find Digikey shipping more reasonable for me (8$ vs. 20$ :icon_eek:)
Those appear to be from the same product line as the one I used. Good find!
I've started my build, but something was bugging me about the pot value. I don't know why, but to ease my mind, I decided to remeasure the pot resistance.
The pedal pot IS NOT 5K. I made a mistake by not completely diconnecting the wiring before measuring, that's why I got a nice 5K reading. With the wires off, it comes in at 11K. Yes... 11K. A 10K should be fine though, since we're not using the ends of the pot travel.
My sincere, and profuse, apologies if this created any undue problems with anyones build. Just a bonehead move on my part.
I've already face-smacked myself a few times, but if anyone else feels like giving me a shot as well, feel free.
R.G., you'll have to update the build article, including maybe the section on faking the pot. Also, transistor QF+1(NPN) is not listed on the BOM. This transistor is a 2N4401 in the original units.
Source updated and on line.
Actually, Qf+1 is listed in the BOM. It's listed as a 2N5551, which (I think...) works fine in this application.
I think I caught all mentions of the rocker pot, but I'm error prone. If anyone finds one I missed, let me know.
Hmmm. I wonder what change would be made if I corrected mine.
might be why your treadle was self-oscillating, keppy. probably give ya a better sweep with a wider sweet spot.
I suspect little, or none. There's a big adjustment available on the rocker, and as long as the rocker pot is enough lower resistance than the input resistance into the circuit, it acts like a linear voltage source in series with a modest resistor - about 1.2K for a 5K pot, about 2.5K for a 10K pot. I had to go through those numbers to come up with the "just use a 100K wah pot" circuit.
10K is by far a more common pot value, though, so it's worth changing the instructions for those who come after us.
It would be interesting if you wanted to mess with it and verify that. I'm just guessing, as I haven't done a lot more circuit analysis on it.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 04, 2012, 12:04:27 AM
might be why your treadle was self-oscillating, keppy. probably give ya a better sweep with a wider sweet spot.
Nah, the oscillations were cured with the updated trimming procedure. You might be right about the sweep, though.
In the document on GEOFEX (wiring guide) there are two connections for DC.
DC1 and DC2, do we have to use both or just one?
I think Pwr Com is the GND from the adapter?
RonaldB
Actually, those are AC/DC1 and AC/DC2. The original would have used a center tapped transformer, with one end of the winding on each of those, and the center tap on the "Pwr Com" pad. I preserved that in case someone wanted to use a transformer instead of a DC power supply.
If you're using a DC power supply, connect the (-) terminal to Pwr Com and the (+) terminal to either AC/DC1 or AC/DC2, or both. The Principle of Parsimony says only do one. What's inside those pads is just the two rectifier diodes.
Oke thanks
Just a thought, since I'm in the middle of my build here;
For the "Console" board, I think it's best to solder the trimmers onto the back side of the board. This will allow full time access to them, avoiding the hassle of pulling the board out to adjust them.
I don't know if it's been already mentioned or not, and pretty much common dog f*ck I know, but I just thought I would throw it out there.
Back to wiring now.... YUMMMM!!!! :icon_mrgreen:
has anyone else got it up and running yet?
i haven't even begun to populate mine yet...
i thought i posted this yesterday so sorry if this is doubled somewhere else but ...
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/msg/3004630602.html
maybe i should put my omnibot up , for 1200 .
tell him we cloned 'em and they won't be worth SH*T :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 28, 2012, 02:43:26 PM
has anyone else got it up and running yet?
i haven't even begun to populate mine yet...
Working on it. Boards are done. Box is drilled. Wiring, and pedal gutting left to go. Working on it. Missing some hardware though (LED bezels, and 2 footswitches :icon_evil:), but on their way. I figure, maybe 2 more weeks, maybe 3, before it's running.
Don't worry... you'll ALL know when it is. :icon_lol:
ha !
Alright, I've got everything wired, and I'm off to to a bad start. I'm not getting my 35v at Q6 emitter. I'm only getting around 18.5v. I'm getting 47.9v from the power supply, and the 36v zener is giving me 35.8v.
Further down the line, I'm only getting about 6v at pad W17. I should be seeing 35v here.
Any quick ideas?
Back to the bench....
Quote from: digi2t on June 19, 2012, 12:55:14 PM
Alright, I've got everything wired, and I'm off to to a bad start. I'm not getting my 35v at Q6 emitter. I'm only getting around 18.5v. I'm getting 47.9v from the power supply, and the 36v zener is giving me 35.8v.
Further down the line, I'm only getting about 6v at pad W17. I should be seeing 35v here.
Any quick ideas?
Back to the bench....
OK... embarassing moment here...
The BD679 was backwards. I guess it just isn't clear enough for me on the board which side the transistor has to go on. Since I'm using a heatsink, I mounted it on the trace side to put the metal side down, with the heatsink underneath it.
R.G., could you please label the Q6 pins on the layout? Save another dufuss like me some troubleshooting time. Thank God I can read a schematic.
I'm off to tune it now... YIIIPPPPPPIIIIIEEEEE!!!!!!!
Good catch. Yes, it was laid out for top of the PCB. I've updated the project file and will post it as soon as I get a chance.
I put markings on B and E on two different pages and did some warning texts about this three places.
YYYYYYEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
It works... and it's perfect. I used my tuning guide as a rough pathway. I've come to the realization that every unit will probably give different voltage readings, but the fact remains that setting up the initial voltage with R20, and then balancing the Toe up/Heel down COUNTER voltages, is key. This is the biggest PITA, since it involves finding the right engagement point between the rack and the gear, and lots of adjusting between the final angle of the pedal pot, and R31. Once that is done R29 goes to 3.8v on the wiper, and you can adjust R55 and R77 by ear, or by scope. Once you've got the three modes nice and vocally, a final tweak on R29 to finalize the pitch of the YOY. I was lazy tonight, so I went by ear, didn't feel like setting up the scope. Besides, not everyone has a scope, so I wanted to test what was already written here. R65 goes somewhere between 0 and 22K ohms, again, by ear is fine. The remaining two trimmers get cranked until you don't get any whistles or chirps for the filters. They do play a very tiny bit of a role in the sound of the vowel, so if you're anal about it, yes, you can sit there for hours, and nudge them around until you find your Nirvana.
It's just as vocal as the original. Hell... it's so close to the original, it's scary! I'm proud as punch to have contributed to this project, we have a winner. I'm getting all the same vowel sounds that I get with my original unit, whether it's with the animation, or with the pedal alone. I'll get gutshots, and a video done soon. Hopefully by the weekend.
Hot damn!!
LOUD APPLAUSE ERUPTS IN CONNECTICUT!!!!!!!
Yeeee-hah!!
Congrats!
we need baby pics and clips!!! ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on June 21, 2012, 10:25:24 AM
we need baby pics and clips!!! ;)
I need a 26.3 hour day! :icon_lol:
Coming soon bro. I might be able to post something on Saturday.
Stay tuned.
all good my brother, all good...
it's getting close to me to order parts...i have to save up a while to be able to make it worthwhile, and i figure the more gets built by guys with some knowledge,
the better chance a hack newb like me will be able to pull it off.
can't wait to see it...you and keppy are the first proud papa's!! ;)
My anniversary is in two week, I've asked that a mouser order be my present! ;)
OK, two bugs.
1) The Fast/Slow switch should be the other way around. On mine, switch down/LED off is fast, and switch up/LED on is slow. Personally, I'd prefer it the other way around. OK... not really a bug, but a lifestyle choice :icon_lol:.
2) It should be corrected on the parts list that the jacks required should be; 2 mono for the outputs, and 2 mono switched for the inputs. The switched jacks should go to ground when not in use. Otherwise, you'll get all kinds of noise from the unused input. This reflects the original units.
Started a new topic with the clone in action. Didn't want to post all that here. http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=97991.0 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=97991.0)
Cheers,
Dino
Oh yeah, we should also mention that the trimmers on the console board should be mounted on the trace side. Makes tuning much easier, not having to have the board out of the box.
Correction needs to be made to the schematic in the PDF. The Fast/Slow switch poles are labeled backwards, as well as the labelling on the layout. Fast is down, and slow is up.
R.G., is it possible to re-route the two traces (top and bottom poles), to have Fast up and Slow down? The LED can stay as is.
Cheers,
Dino
Quote from: digi2t on June 23, 2012, 09:13:15 PM
Correction needs to be made to the schematic in the PDF. The Fast/Slow switch poles are labeled backwards, as well as the labelling on the layout. Fast is down, and slow is up.
R.G., is it possible to re-route the two traces (top and bottom poles), to have Fast up and Slow down? The LED can stay as is.
Yes, I think it is possible. The only thing preventing a "Sure, no problem" is that I remember that area as being very tight.
I'm pretty sure all the other mods are trivial. And it is a huge help to have you listing things that you ran into for any future changes.
There is one thing. People who've read "PCB Layout for Musical Effects" will remember laboring through the stuff on rules and where you're trying to go. One of the things I did on this layout was try to preserve trace width and spacing so it was feasible for someone with a couple of toner transfers under their belt to do it. So I deliberately pushed everything I could to one copper surface instead of evening it out top and bottom and requiring plated through holes. Double sided copper makes some things easier, like mounting pots and Q6 on one side of the PCB and everything else on the other side. The pins for those parts just solder on the normally component side and solder through. This is harder to do with a single sided PCB.
So - the real question lurking in here is does any further update to the layout give up on aiming at single-sided toner transfer? I'm good either way, because at most I'll only ever build the one set I have, so it's really a question about whether those who come later will nearly always want plated-through holes.
That's fair enough R.G.
So far, these are "esoteric" adjustments. I mean the unit works as advertised, which is of primary importance, so I'm not really sweating this small stuff. I'm already getting used to the quirks, so it's no biggie for me. If there is a simple fix, then go for it.
Or, we leave it as is. That should cover the "quirky mojo" aspect for the clone :icon_lol:.
Speaking of which (I forgot to mention this before), when I put my Fuzz Rpt./FFM switch to "Both", both colors of my bi-color LED are on. Tracing the circuit, I can understand why, but I might suggest that the builder be judicious in choosing the bi-colour LED here. Mine doesn't give much of a visual difference between the red/green together, and the red alone. It's very subtle, more orange than amber.
*EDIT*-
Here is my "quick and dirty" setup guide for adjusting the trimmers and pedal pot in the clone.
First, some ground rules;
1) I used a Crybaby shell for the pedal, along with a P.E.C. 10K pot. The pot fits well, and is pretty well bulletproof. There are rubber bumpers on the treadle, which cushion the impact between toe and heel down positions. I trimmed these to about 2mm with a razor, to maximize the sweep, yet retaining some impact cushion.
2) I used a BD679 power transistor. All the information below relies on having 48vdc +/-0.1 power supply voltage, and 35.6vdc +/-0.1 at the emitter of the BD679. If your voltages are further from these numbers (within reason), then your pedal will probably not sound quite like mine. This is normal, and nothing that some fine tuning thereafter can't adjust. Like I said, this is to get you close to where you should be.
3) I used 1% metal film resistors, and metal film caps. One exception is the 220pF cap, which is silver mica. I'm not quite sure if that makes much of a difference, but I thought I would throw that out there for good measure.
Now the setup;
1) Install your pot in your pedal. One pole goes to ground, the wiper should be on this side of the pot when in toe down position. Adjust the pot position so as the pot sweep is completely at the end of it's travel when the treadle is completely heel down. In other word, bottom the pedal, bottoms the pot. If you wish, you may also trim the rubber toe/heel bumpers, if you're using a Dunlop type shell, to maximize the amount of sweep. If you do, you can take them down to about 1/8" (3mm), which is enough to cushion the impact. In any case, assure to leave a bit of play on the pot rotation in heel down, to accomodate the deflection of the rubber bumpers. This will avoid having the rack gear jump a tooth if you push heel down too hard.
2) Once the boards are installed and completely and wired, test your power supply, and power transistor voltages. If you're good to go here, proceed to the next step.
3) WITH THE POWER OFF - Adjust the trimmer resistances to the following numbers as illustrated below. If a trimmer seems to drift on the meter, just sit tight until it stops moving, and then adjust. Two lines point to where you should probe the trimmer, with the desired resistance. Since R55 and R77 are in a voltage divider mode, probe one side of the trimmer, then the other. Note as well that R31 will vary with pedal position, so I've given the resistances in toe, and heel down positions.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Filtertuning.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Console1tuning.jpg)
4) Fire up your unit. One thing that both the clone and the original have in common is the RF29 voltage. Both seem to like 3.80vdc on the wiper to ground. This gives the best vocal quality from all modes. If you're within 0.5vdc of this number, you should be in the park. Just tweaking the trimmer a bit will give noticeable results, so keep track of your adjustments.
5) RF55 and RF77 adjust the F1 and F2 frequencies. You can play with these, again, keep track of you adjustments. You'll see that adjusting one or the other will shift the frequencies, thus changing the vocal qualities of the unit. Keep track of what you're doing, and adjust these to taste if the initial settings don't meet with your satisfaction. A word of warning though, going to far one way or the other, with either trimmer, will send the unit into bad oscillation, give you bad thumping when switching, or thumping when sweeping the pedal. So, go easy!
That's it. That's how mine is set up. If you can get close to the numbers above, you should be able to avoid any bad oscillations or thumps, and get some decent vocal action going.
Quote from: digi2t on June 21, 2012, 09:57:13 PM
2) It should be corrected on the parts list that the jacks required should be; 2 mono for the outputs, and 2 mono switched for the inputs. The switched jacks should go to ground when not in use. Otherwise, you'll get all kinds of noise from the unused input. This reflects the original units.
Cheers,
Dino
Mouser BOM updated for this suggestion. Thanks, digi2t!
BOM for ordering: http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d (http://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d)
Thanks Ron, very kind of you.
Cheers,
Dino
Yeah, great Ron, that's just golden.
Well, the animation speed switch (Fast/Slow) being upside down was really bugging me. What can I say, I'm just anal that way. I prefer Fast being up, with the LED on, and Slow being down, with no LED. The original units are configured this way as well, Fast up, Slow down I mean. So, a quick and dirty work around. 2 trace cuts, and 2 jumpers to flip that side of the switch around. LED side of the switch is fine.
Snapshot of the mod;
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/DSCF1173.jpg)
I can sleep soundly now :icon_mrgreen:. Besides, it gives the board a sort of "mid-production fu*k-up, engineering department fix up, we'll hire a student for the summer to mod all the boards, but the company went under anyway" kinda mojo.
Cheers,
Dino
Quote from: digi2t on June 29, 2012, 10:19:57 PM
Besides, it gives the board a sort of "mid-production fu*k-up, engineering department fix up, we'll hire a student for the summer to mod all the boards, but the company went under anyway" kinda mojo.
Because this effect needs MORE of that. ;)
QuoteBecause this effect needs MORE of that. ;)
:icon_lol:
I like it. It does add that veneer of authenticity to it, doesn't it? :icon_lol:
Hey R.G., if I wanted to lower the input volume on the High-Z, which resistor should I be adjusting around Q2? I find that in straight filter mode (no fuzz), my guitar signal is distorting. I need to turn down my guitar volume for it to clean up.
Increase R11 from 10K to something larger.
I think it's probably overdriving the next transistor, not distorting in Q2. This will lower the level without messing about with the input impedance at Q2. Let me know if that doesn't work.
On the 'fast-is-up' mod: I looked at it. I turned the switch 180 degrees and re-routed the wires. This brought up the question in my mind about which direction turns on the LED. You want that on with 'fast' right? This would be a good time to think about making it bicolor, one color for fast, one for slow. I think that's possible as well.
Quote from: R.G. on June 30, 2012, 04:40:08 PM
Increase R11 from 10K to something larger.
I think it's probably overdriving the next transistor, not distorting in Q2. This will lower the level without messing about with the input impedance at Q2. Let me know if that doesn't work.
On the 'fast-is-up' mod: I looked at it. I turned the switch 180 degrees and re-routed the wires. This brought up the question in my mind about which direction turns on the LED. You want that on with 'fast' right? This would be a good time to think about making it bicolor, one color for fast, one for slow. I think that's possible as well.
First off, thanks for the input advise. I'll try it and let you know.
As for the speed switch, like I said before, the LED is fine. As you can see, my jumpers are effectively just swapping the traces around 180 degrees. So re-routing the traces would be just what the doctor ordered. But, a bi-color LED for the Fast/Slow would be the cat's ass. That would be in keeping with the original's "Christmas tree" look.
I've posted a survey in the For Sale/Wanted section to see if another run of boards has merit. If so, we could incorporate this mod to the new run. In the meantime, if anyone is bothered with the speed switch, they can simply mod it as I did.
Quote from: digi2t on June 30, 2012, 05:53:11 PM
...a bi-color LED for the Fast/Slow would be the cat's ass. That would be in keeping with the original's "Christmas tree" look.
Recommend a common ANODE for the bi-color LED. Less parts involved ( Okay... its only one less resistor but its still less parts! ::))
QuoteIncrease R11 from 10K to something larger.
I think it's probably overdriving the next transistor, not distorting in Q2. This will lower the level without messing about with the input impedance at Q2. Let me know if that doesn't work.
OK, I tried it with a 25K trimmer, so I could sweep through and see what sounded best. Ultimately, it did reduce the input volume, slightly, and then there was no more difference. I also tried a 50K trimmer to if it would bring it down some more, but no dice. It seems to hit a certain point, and stop there.
Would a different transistor type in this section would make a difference, like a 2N2222?
*EDIT* - Just a thought... Could it be that we are distorting at the filter level? Is it possible to adjust the input volume just before one, or both, of the filters?
hmmm.
That's odd. Increasing that resistor should drop the volume pretty readily. Q3 can be thought of as a kind of current-input gain stage. Increasing the series resistors with its input should drop the signal level from the source going into its base. Obviously, if R11 gets to being a few tera-ohms (an inch or two of air :icon_wink: ) I'd expect the signal level to drop a lot. What happens when you sub in a 1M pot and diddle with it?
Q3 has a quite low input impedance, and the signal currents from the lo-z and hi-z inputs are mixed by the currents through the series resistors coming into Q3 base.
We can always split the emitter resistor of Q2 and dial the voltage down, but that's clumsy.
What happens with an even bigger resistor? BTW - it may be that the loading on the signal from the mixing resistor coming from the low-Z side is causing the plateau. If you don't get good results, I'll see if I can run some sims to see what gives.
Quote from: R.G. on June 30, 2012, 10:17:35 PM
hmmm.
That's odd. Increasing that resistor should drop the volume pretty readily. Q3 can be thought of as a kind of current-input gain stage. Increasing the series resistors with its input should drop the signal level from the source going into its base. Obviously, if R11 gets to being a few tera-ohms (an inch or two of air :icon_wink: ) I'd expect the signal level to drop a lot. What happens when you sub in a 1M pot and diddle with it?
Q3 has a quite low input impedance, and the signal currents from the lo-z and hi-z inputs are mixed by the currents through the series resistors coming into Q3 base.
We can always split the emitter resistor of Q2 and dial the voltage down, but that's clumsy.
What happens with an even bigger resistor? BTW - it may be that the loading on the signal from the mixing resistor coming from the low-Z side is causing the plateau. If you don't get good results, I'll see if I can run some sims to see what gives.
Hey!!! I just had an idea!
Looking at the Fuzz footswitch, the com feeds the filter circuit, with one side providing the clean sound, and the other the fuzz. The real problem is the clean side. Not only with the distorting, but the fact that I can't get unity with the bypassed signal, even with the bypass pot at max. So, I took a 10K pot, and inserted it between the fuzz footswitch clean pole and ground. This way I can turn down the clean signal hitting the filters, by going to ground. Well Holy Crow!, it did the trick. Not only did it tame the distortion, but I can achieve unity with the bypass signal now. Now, when the fuzz is engaged, it's much louder, whereas it was the opposite before. I guess the same trick could be used on this pole to balance between the clean, fuzz, and bypassed signals.
So how about this for another "quick and dirty" workaround; Since one of the poles on the Fuzz footswitch is the ground for the LED, I can bridge resistors from the clean and fuzz poles to lower the input level to the filters. This allows me to find unity with the bypass mode as well, with the pot maxed.
For the clean side, I found anywhere between 390 ohms to 470 ohms gets me into the right zone. For the fuzz side, 1.2K to 1.5K seems to be pretty good. I realize that there's not much resistance on the clean side, but like I said before, the clean side is REALLY loud compared to the bypassed mode.
Can you sim that R.G.? It sounds alright to me, but maybe I'm messing with something downstream.
OK, I decided to forego the quick and dirty fix above, and have taken a look at the transistor voltages. Placing the original and clone side by side, I've looked at the differences between voltages in the input/fuzz section.
For the record, the main voltage of the original is at 33.61vdc, and the clone is sitting at 35.91vdc.
All the transistors in this section (Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, Q5, Q6, Q21, Q22), but one, are fairly close to each other, taking into consideration the main voltage difference. The one that seems to be off is Q22. From the way I understand it, this is the last tranny in the clean signal chain feeding the filters, connection point 17 in the original schematic. The fuzz'd signal comes from connection point 16.
As far as the voltages between the two Q22's are concerned, here they are;
Original -
E - 0.877
B - 1.495
C - 15.73
Clone -
E - 0.761
B - 1.369
C - 20.57
As you can see, big difference between the collector voltages. All the other trannies are very close to each other, considering the almost 2.5 volt difference in the main voltage supply.
Could this be what's overdriving my signal? If so, how do I go about toning down Q22?
Took a bit. Sim kept crashing and I had to so some system reconfig.
The simulation matches the measured from the clone pretty closely, both with 35.9V and 33.6V for a power supply.
I'm guessing that the original has some drifted resistor values or some other issue.
On the other side of this, Q22 does present a good place to change gain, I guess.
Try putting a 5K pot in series with the 470R emitter resistor on Q22 and dink with it. In sim, this changes the gain from as much as 26db down to 1.8db.
QuoteTry putting a 5K pot in series with the 470R emitter resistor on Q22 and dink with it. In sim, this changes the gain from as much as 26db down to 1.8db.
Thank God you mentioned that. Just before going to bed last night, I took and educated guess, and while the DMM was connected to the collector I just touched a 47K resistor in parallel with the 470R. When I saw the voltage fluctuate, I thought I might be on to something. I was going to try the pot test tonight, starting with a 1K though. I`ll report my findings thereafter.
OK, I messed about with it, and playing with this resistor doesn`t help. Now I`m debating if it`s the effect that`s distorting, or whether it`s overdriving the input on my amp?
Sidebar: After doing some research, I found that the transistor used in the Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, Q21, and Q22 spots, are much closer to 2N5088 spec`s, so I swapped them out. My voltages are much closer now to the original, especially for Q22`s collector, which is now sitting at 16.10vdc with the 2N5088. I found this info going back in Jimi`s original Ludwig thread. There was an EV amp manual link, which spec`d the original numbers, and equivilants.
Anyway, since I know that turning my guitar volume down was the only sure way to tame the beast, I looked at the input side of things. Reducing R6 seems to produce the best result. I can crank up my guitar volume now, and by reducing the resistance here, I`m basically reducing the input volume, and the distortion as well. Also, this now puts the Bypass Balance volume, at max, higher than unity, which is great, since I don`t have it dimed now. This effect is just plain loud. Much louder than the bypassed signal, especially in clean FFM mode. I think I`ll just shoehorn a trimmer in place of R6, adjust it, and button it up.
Does this make sense to you R.G.?
Quote from: digi2t on July 06, 2012, 12:27:23 PM
OK, I messed about with it, and playing with this resistor doesn`t help. Now I`m debating if it`s the effect that`s distorting, or whether it`s overdriving the input on my amp?
Hmmm. That resistor makes dramatic changes in the gain of Q22.
My take? It's oscilloscope time. Nothing like seeing the waveform.
QuoteSidebar: After doing some research, I found that the transistor used in the Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, Q21, and Q22 spots, are much closer to 2N5088 spec`s, so I swapped them out. My voltages are much closer now to the original, especially for Q22`s collector, which is now sitting at 16.10vdc with the 2N5088. I found this info going back in Jimi`s original Ludwig thread. There was an EV amp manual link, which spec`d the original numbers, and equivilants.
Good bit of knowledge. However, there is a reason I violated my own Second Law and didn't recommend the 5088. The 5088 is rated at only 30V for Vceo. It'll probably be OK - which means no decent engineer would ever use it there. Probably doesn't work in engineering situations. I would recommend the 2N5210 (Vceo = 50V) for that, as it has a high gain and low noise, although neither is as good as the 5088. The 2SC1815 would be a really good choice as well, although it doesn't have the same EBC pinout - it's ECB.
QuoteAnyway, since I know that turning my guitar volume down was the only sure way to tame the beast, I looked at the input side of things. Reducing R6 seems to produce the best result. I can crank up my guitar volume now, and by reducing the resistance here, I`m basically reducing the input volume, and the distortion as well. Also, this now puts the Bypass Balance volume, at max, higher than unity, which is great, since I don`t have it dimed now. This effect is just plain loud. Much louder than the bypassed signal, especially in clean FFM mode. I think I`ll just shoehorn a trimmer in place of R6, adjust it, and button it up.
Does this make sense to you R.G.?
It does. If your tinkering produces good results with modern guitars and amps, I'll probably put in an alternate position to make R6 either fixed or a trimmer, user's choice, in any future layouts.
The Ludwig is an example of how engineering, even from a knowledgeable audio company, can go awry in the face of the music industry's unspoken "standards". It's big, complicated, special purpose, and - did I mention complex? - probably hurried to production with minimal testing.
And it's a relic. Today, we'd do that with some opamps, maybe a uC, and shoehorn all the electronics into one footpedal enclosure.
Good detective work, Dino.
QuoteIt does. If your tinkering produces good results with modern guitars and amps, I'll probably put in an alternate position to make R6 either fixed or a trimmer, user's choice, in any future layouts.
I`ll run some more tests with this over the weekend and report my findings. I wasn`t able to get up to really loud volume levels yesterday, but it seems to be the best solution. Also, I want to try it with two other amps as well, just to validate the mod. The alternate resistor/trimmer setup would be great though.
QuoteGood detective work, Dino.
All thanks are owed to you, and Mark Hammer for where I am today in my stompbox education thus far. Who says that you can`t find things, walking in the shadows. :icon_mrgreen:
Hey R.G., what does your sim say if we take R18 (RF18 in the clone) down to, say, 5K. It's a 470K now.
I've been fiddling again, but this time with the downstream stages. My R4 idea works, but I found that the fuzz was a little anemic. Probably due to the lower input signal hitting Q2. Same story when I fiddled with the resistor to ground on Q3. But, on Q4, taking the base down further started to reduce the distortion in the clean FFM mode. As for the fuzz, it's actually starting to reflect the original. The clone, as is, has got great sustain. Much more than the original. It actually surprised me when I started playing with it, how meaty the fuzz was. I've now taken R18 down to 5K, and the clean FFM signal cleaned up, and the fuzz is thinner now, more like the original. Maybe Q4 distorting was driving both over the top, helping to accentuate the fuzz more? Also, it doesn't affect the Voice Fuzz, or Fuzz Repeats modes as much. When playing with the other resistor values to ground on Q2, and Q3, I would either start to lose in one, the other, or again, on the fuzz. I think I might be onto a happy middle ground here.
I compared the voltages on Q4 as well with the 5K, and they're still pretty close to the original.
As soon as I get the big volume tests done, I'll report what works best.
Quote from: digi2t on July 07, 2012, 01:17:07 AM
Hey R.G., what does your sim say if we take R18 (RF18 in the clone) down to, say, 5K. It's a 470K now.
No need to look at the sim. Changing that should have a huge effect on the DC bias of QF4. If we're talking about the same Rf18 on Qf4 in the clone, the bias is set by Rf17 and Rf18 as a voltage divider to about 1/3 of the voltage on Qf4 collector. Changing Rf18 to 5K would be dramatic if I understand the schemo right.
Can you check that the voltages don't change? That's a bit bizarre.
What happens if you use 4.7K in series with 22uF parallel with the existing 470K? This would knock the AC down a lot but not affect the DC conditions.
OK, R26 is the one to replace with a trimmer, or lower value resistor. All the others either weaken the fuzz, weaken both the fuzz and the clean FFM signal too much, or weaken the fuzz repeat mode. Adjusting R26 can bring down just the clean FFM, allowing me to balance the signal between the clean bypass, clean FFM, and Fuzz.
If you bring the input (R6) closer to ground, you weaken everything, bypassed volume included. No good.
If you bring Q3 or Q4 base resistors closer to ground, it weakens both the FFM and the Fuzz. The fuzz really suffers, getting really thin with much less sustain, when dialing the FFM down to where it cleans up. Dialing down R18 hurts the Fuzz repeat mode, especially in Voice Fuzz, so that's out as well.
Replacing R26 with a small Bourns 3296 50K trimmer is the best workaround, without weakening the fuzz. Or, one could just use a 50K pot to find the best resistance, and then slip the appropriate resistor in there. This allows you to dial down the clean signal from hitting the filters too hard, and not affect the fuzz works.
No need to mod the board either. Tie the wiper to one leg or the other, and there is plenty of room to place the trimmer in place of the resistor.
My two original units had the same problem. Super loud clean FFM, to the point of distortion if I don't turn down the guitar volume. I'm even debating mod'ing my original unit now. Maybe if I find some carbon comp resistors that match the look of the originals.
R26 it is then. This is 'rf26' in the clone, correct?
Through sheer good luck, that happens to be in a part of the PCB where there is actually room to stick in a trimmer footprint. If there's ever any more of these, I'll stick a trimmer footprint in there in parallel with the hard-resistor footprint so it can be trimmed as an option.
Quote from: R.G. on July 07, 2012, 11:06:21 PM
R26 it is then. This is 'rf26' in the clone, correct?
Through sheer good luck, that happens to be in a part of the PCB where there is actually room to stick in a trimmer footprint. If there's ever any more of these, I'll stick a trimmer footprint in there in parallel with the hard-resistor footprint so it can be trimmed as an option.
Good luck?? PHHHWWTTT! I'm sure you did that on purpose... unwittingly :icon_lol:.
Yes, that's RF26. The extra parallel trimmer footprint would be the cherry.
Thanks R.G.
*EDIT* - This just dawned on me. I didn't think to bring it up before, but it might be good to mention as well that some folks might even want to add an external pot on the unit to control R26 resistance. Why? Because different guitar pickups will drive this signal differently. I'm using guitars that range between 7K single coils, all the way to 27.5K humbuckers. The hotter the pups, the more it will distort. Pretty sure they didn't have any pups that hot back in the day, so we're dealing with the engineering remnants here. If you're only using one guitar, then pick your resistor and run with it. If you've got a stable of them, then consider wiring an adjustment pot to the side of the case. Somewhere where it won't get knocked about, but you can access it for "guitar switch" adjustment.
Or maybe a 4 throw rotary. Hot, Hotter, Hottest, and Aye Caramba! settings. :icon_lol:
OK, after many hours of pounding the keyboard, I think I've managed to cross reference all the trannies on the fall board in this puppy. The list below lists the transistors found on the fall board schematic, and their (I believe!)modern counterparts. Mind you, the clone works fine with what R.G. spec's in the build document. I just thought it would be cool to do a little detective work, and see what I could come up with. Here we go, Ludwig part number, followed by modern equivalent(s);
43054 - 2N5088 (I have these in the front end right now, and they work well. They also get my voltages much closer to the original.)
43045 - MPS8097 (hard to find), or BC546B (readily available, reverse pinout)
43175 - 2SC3332 (On semi still makes it, I managed to get my hands on 10.)
43176 - 2SA1319 (2SC3332's PNP counterpart. On semi still makes them, got my hands on 10.)
43173 - 2N5551 (Good call R.G.)
43174 - 2N5401 (See previous comment :icon_mrgreen:)
Like I said, the spec'd trannies get the job done. I just wanted to test myself here, but there are some out there that might be curious (read "anal" :icon_lol:) about what might be closer to the original. I've got the 2N5088's, 2N5551, and 2N5401's in mine now, with the others on their way. Once I get them, I'll plunk them in, and do some more sound/voltage comparisons with the original.
I'm about to wire the beast but I've got a question. How should I wire the power source? I'm not really familiar with: "Pwr Com", "AC/+DC1" and "AC/+DC2".
Quote from: Vince_b on July 17, 2012, 01:54:12 PM
I'm about to wire the beast but I've got a question. How should I wire the power source? I'm not really familiar with: "Pwr Com", "AC/+DC1" and "AC/+DC2".
Hi Vince,
If you are using the recommended 48 volt DC power adapter, then Pwr Com will be your negative, and connect the positive to either the +DC1
OR the +DC2. Do not connect the positive to both pads.
Looking forward to hearing your beast.
Cheers,
Dino
Thanks for the quick reply Dino!
As soon as I get it to work (or not) you will hear from me.
I'm not sure if it already have been mentionned, but the filter board is missing a hole for a wire. According to the wiring diagram, there should be a hole next to RF62 (trimmer) to put a wire that goes to the console board and to the rocker pot heel down. Is there something that I'm missing?
Hmmmm. Lemme go check.
@Vince:
having trouble locating that one. There is a circle for a wire on the diagram, but no hole there - which is, I think the inconsistency you noticed.
I believe this may be a non-problem. The wire location for that wire was over near RF62 on an earlier version, but moved. There is a quirk in the layout software that I use which forces me to manually make up the diagrams for wiring. I use the circles around wire pads to make that easier to locate, and since it's manual, sometimes I make errors in placing/removing a circle in doing the wiring artwork. It's a PITA, but cheaper than buying a $2000 'seat' for a fancier layout package.
@Dino:
You have more real experience with wiring that thing than I do. Have you encountered the issue?
Yeah, I noticed that as well when I was wiring it. If you look at the "Parts Placement Diagram" page of the build guide, you'll notice the hole there, but there are no traces connecting it to anything. I assumed that things must have been moved around, and this was a remnant on the diagram, but deleted from production. On the wiring guide, simply delete the jumper shown between this hole and the other board (connecting to the "Rocker Pot Heel Down" wire).
That clear enough?
Cheers,
Dino
Thanks. I located it. The leftover pad was from an early version of the board where I was still sorting pad and wire placement to make it easy (ier...) to wire controls. The traces to the pad got deleted, but the pad was left over. I'll delete it from the instructions and any future boards.
I have "finished" it, but I will have some debugging to do.
Every functions seem to work but the output volume is very low. I'm not sure yet about what is the cause.
The balance pot works only when the effect is bypassed, is it normal behavior? And the Lo-Z balance does nothing at all.
When I first plugged it, I reversed the polarity (I didn't noticed that the wall wart that I have bought was center positive), may it have destroyed something? I only let it run like that for less than a second though.
But that's enough for today, I will start proper debugging tomorrow.
Quote from: Vince_b on July 17, 2012, 10:58:57 PM
I have "finished" it, but I will have some debugging to do.
Every functions seem to work but the output volume is very low. I'm not sure yet about what is the cause.
With as many wires to connect as this thing has, a wiring mistake is one of the first places I'd look.
QuoteWhen I first plugged it, I reversed the polarity (I didn't noticed that the wall wart that I have bought was center positive), may it have destroyed something? I only let it run like that for less than a second though.
Probably not. There is a series diode with the power in to the board. That should have prevented damage. Taking transistor voltages should tell the tale.
QuoteThe balance pot works only when the effect is bypassed, is it normal behavior?
Yup, normal. This is just to balance the bypassed signal to the effected signal.
You may want to look over the first four transistor stages as well (Q1 - 4), for correct resistor values, and transistor voltages. Your problem might be here, if it`s not wiring.
The Lo-Z balance (if I remember correctly, but I might be wrong :icon_rolleyes:) only works if you have two inputs going into the unit at the same time. This, I assume, allows you to achieve unity between the Hi and Lo signals.
Last time I looked at the build guide, I didn`t see it, but the input jacks should be mono switched jacks. With nothing plugged in, the input should be grounded. Otherwise, the unused input will generate noise.
Build instructions updated, post later today.
nice work guys.
fwiw, dino's mod makes the unit *MUCH* easier to deal with. i think the fuzz may have been an afterthought to deal with how crappy the filter sounded without the fuzz on. i remember on my unit in the 70's, the bypass was very loud and treble boosted...almost like a %^&*ed wah at a point of oscillation.
dino's mod fixes and addresses this problem, and is highly reccomended...you can always dial in the original value if you WANT that sound. ;)
but if you want it to play nice with modern standards, it's nite and day.
Quote from: R.G. on July 18, 2012, 02:02:05 AM
With as many wires to connect as this thing has, a wiring mistake is one of the first places I'd look.
That was my first thought too, but I've just double checked every wire connections and everything looks fine.
Quote from: digi2t on July 18, 2012, 09:48:14 AM
You may want to look over the first four transistor stages as well (Q1 - 4), for correct resistor values, and transistor voltages. Your problem might be here, if it`s not wiring.
I have checked the voltages of those transistors and according to the build document they seem right. The only thing that I have noticed is that when I put the switch on fast start, the emitter voltage of Q1 start to drop toward 0V. But I guess it is normal.
The fuzz is working, the filtering is working, the animation is working, the only problem is that I need to crank my amp just to get some almost decent volume. I will take a deeper look at it during this week-end.
And Dino, where did you get your pot for the expression pedal? I'm having a hard time finding one with enough threading to be able to secure it properly in the shell.
QuoteI have checked the voltages of those transistors and according to the build document they seem right. The only thing that I have noticed is that when I put the switch on fast start, the emitter voltage of Q1 start to drop toward 0V. But I guess it is normal.
Yeah, that's fine. This transistor is part of the fast/slow scheme.
Just make sure that the unused Lo-Z input is grounded as well when you go back to your troubleshooting.
QuoteAnd Dino, where did you get your pot for the expression pedal? I'm having a hard time finding one with enough threading to be able to secure it properly in the shell.
Those pots are made by P.E.C.. I use the long shaft version, which I cut down to size. I also use the flat shaft style pinion gear, with the circlip. I make the groove for the circlip with a Dremel.
Digikey has them, here is the web catalog link; http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/RV4NAYSJ103A/RV4NJ103C-ND/222783 (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/RV4NAYSJ103A/RV4NJ103C-ND/222783)
Another suitable workalike is the Clarostat model, pricier, but available at Newark, Digikey, and Mouser. The nut MIGHT come seperately on this one, so heads up. The part number is 380C110K. I've never used this model, but from the drawings, it looks like a P.E.C. clone.
You can get the P.E.C. pots at ABRA Electronics too, at around 9$ each. But, there is a minimum order charge with them. I'm lucky, ABRA is only about 40 miniutes away from me, so when I don't have enough to make up a mail order, I'll just drive down to the store.
I've found that for weird value wah pots, these work great. They fit the Dunlop shell perfectly as well.
Quote from: digi2t on July 20, 2012, 08:01:27 AM
Just make sure that the unused Lo-Z input is grounded as well when you go back to your troubleshooting.
I 've used switching jacks for tthe intputs so that's ok.
I have started to use an audio probe in hope that it will help me to find out where is the cause of the problem. Just to be sure that I'm understanding the circuit properly, if the signal coming out of the fuzz footswitch is good, am I right in assuming that the problem cannot be in the "inputs, mixer" nor in the "fuzz/non-fuzz signal to filters" sections?
QuoteJust to be sure that I'm understanding the circuit properly, if the signal coming out of the fuzz footswitch is good, am I right in assuming that the problem cannot be in the "inputs, mixer" nor in the "fuzz/non-fuzz signal to filters" sections?
The fuzz on/off footswitch is a good place to start. The center (COM) pole feeds the filters, with one side bringing in the clean signal, and the other the fuzz signal. So, if your fuzz and clean signals are good and strong, then it must be further down stream.
Check the QF+1, and the associated resistors/caps/voltages as well. This is an output amplifier that is fed from the two filters, so it might be here as well.
Quote from: digi2t on July 24, 2012, 07:29:05 AM
Check the QF+1, and the associated resistors/caps/voltages as well. This is an output amplifier that is fed from the two filters, so it might be here as well.
DINO YOU'RE THE MAN!!
You just made me realize how stupid I can be sometimes... For some reasons, I thought that QF+1 was an optional part, something to use only for some kind of mod to get it closer to the orignal. I really don't know where I got this from.
So, I've just soldered a tranny in there and that WORKS!!
Although it is a really stupid mistake, I'm kinda glad that it didn't work at first. My little troubleshooting odyssey made me take the time to understand the basics of how this circuit works. Otherwise I would only have build a nice paint by number pedal.
A really big THANKS to everyone that have worked hard to make this project happen, this is fantastic.
I'm going to upload a few pictures soon today and eventually I will do some soundclips or video but right now I don't have a setup for recording.
The pictures:
(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1046/img0263ldv.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/img0263ldv.jpg/)
(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9417/img0284g.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/220/img0284g.jpg/)
Quote from: Vince_b on July 24, 2012, 09:54:18 AM
So, I've just soldered a tranny in there and that WORKS!!
...
I'm going to upload a few pictures soon today and eventually I will do some soundclips or video but right now I don't have a setup for recording.
It just work? Kewl!!
By the way, that's a nice, tidy build. You do good work.
Quote from: Vince_b on July 24, 2012, 12:51:06 PM
The pictures:
(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1046/img0263ldv.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/img0263ldv.jpg/)
(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9417/img0284g.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/220/img0284g.jpg/)
vince, that's awesome!!! so glad another one lives, and man, it looks great!!
ditto. inspiring work, vince. second pcb run? modern upgrade news?
Quote from: Vince_b on July 24, 2012, 09:54:18 AM
Quote from: digi2t on July 24, 2012, 07:29:05 AM
Check the QF+1, and the associated resistors/caps/voltages as well. This is an output amplifier that is fed from the two filters, so it might be here as well.
DINO YOU'RE THE MAN!!
You just made me realize how stupid I can be sometimes... For some reasons, I thought that QF+1 was an optional part, something to use only for some kind of mod to get it closer to the orignal. I really don't know where I got this from.
So, I've just soldered a tranny in there and that WORKS!!
Although it is a really stupid mistake, I'm kinda glad that it didn't work at first. My little troubleshooting odyssey made me take the time to understand the basics of how this circuit works. Otherwise I would only have build a nice paint by number pedal.
A really big THANKS to everyone that have worked hard to make this project happen, this is fantastic.
I'm going to upload a few pictures soon today and eventually I will do some soundclips or video but right now I don't have a setup for recording.
Oh dude, I'm just a small part of a really great group here. Most of what I know has been handed down to me from some really keen minds (pun fully intended :icon_mrgreen:).
The reason why that transistor (and the related resistors/caps) is labelled QF+1 is because that circuit is not located on the main board in the original units. It's a turret board, that seems to have been an after thought during production. Nonetheless, it's integral to the units operation.
Do yourself a favor though, either ditch RF26 resistor for a small 50K trimmer, or a resistor somewhere in the neighbourhood of 15K to 22K (test using a temporary pot in it's place). You'll see, compared to the fuzz, the clean FFM signal is really loud. So loud in fact, you won't be able to balance between it, and the bypassed volume, even with the bypassed volume at max. Especially with modern pickups being more powerful, the clean signal hits the filters so hard, that it distorts the filters. Also, modding this resistor will also set the fuzz volume slightly higher, allowing you to be able to bring the fuzz down via the fuzz knob. Otherwise, you'll find that the fuzz will more than likely stay cranked all the time, yet always be weaker than the clean FFM volume. This is THE most vital mod that Jimi and I have found to make this unit REALLY, REALLY nice/usable.
You can also wire a 50K pot in here as well, and mount it outside, if you desire. This will allow you to fine tune the clean FFM signal at any time, without having to open the unit. This would be useful if your signal chain changes often, and you need to tweak the unit.
That, and switching the slow/fast speed switch around, if you wish. Easy mod, I wrote up on it, http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95132.140 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95132.140), plus picture of the PCB mod.
Just out of curiousity, which method did you use to tune it? Did you happen to use my "quick and dirty" set-up method, by setting up the trimmers via measuring the resistances (near the bottom of this page; http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95132.120 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95132.120) )? It would be great if someone else could validate the procedure. If you could, and then compare yours to my Youtube videos, that would wrap up that issue.
Other than that, enjoy your new Phase II clone. Really nice clean build, to boot. I'm sure you'll have fun with it.
Cheers,
Dino
Thanks for all the kind words guys.
Quote from: digi2t on July 24, 2012, 03:19:27 PM
Oh dude, I'm just a small part of a really great group here. Most of what I know has been handed down to me from some really keen minds (pun fully intended :icon_mrgreen:).
I see what you did there :D
I will do both mods (RF26 and slow/fast switch) when I will have some time.
Yes, I used your "quick and dirty" set-up method and as far as I know it worked well. Eventually I will do a "side by side" comparison by listening closely to your youtube video. But before that I will have to go to ABRA to buy the right pot for the expression pedal because right now I have to move it by hand.
hi vince, you definitely need the r-26 mod.
on my original, i am gonna disconnect the balance pot and mount it there so i can tweak it.
it really brings the unit to life. the ffm is unusable without the fuzz on otherwise, and the fuzz sounds really weak.
this will phatten it up and is highly reccomended.
i am so psyched to have watched this develop...looking forward to the revised boards.
i still need to populate and build mine, but the damn eyes are so buggy i'm a little aprehensive. hard to solder when ya can't see stuff.
Quote from: Vince_b on July 24, 2012, 12:51:06 PM
(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9417/img0284g.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/220/img0284g.jpg/)
Awesome build Vince :o
Would you mind sharing what size and type enclosure you used here?
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on July 24, 2012, 08:16:59 PM
Would you mind sharing what size and type enclosure you used here?
This is a Hammond 1590D. It fits perfectly.
Quote from: Vince_b on July 24, 2012, 08:46:13 PM
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on July 24, 2012, 08:16:59 PM
Would you mind sharing what size and type enclosure you used here?
This is a Hammond 1590D. It fits perfectly.
Yeah, the prototype build was in one of those, and R.G. based the new boards around the dimensions of that enclosure. Nice work Vince!
Hey guys, I'm still working on my clone...but I just took the cowards way out as I keep working. I found one on the bay for a very reasonable price! I can't believe that I actually bought a real one of these things, I've been on the hunt since the mid-90's. ;D
I suspect that there isn't anything more that can be learned from another vintage unit, but if there is any investigation left to be done, let me know. I should be getting it late next week.
Quote from: Ry on July 28, 2012, 12:53:04 AM
Hey guys, I'm still working on my clone...but I just took the cowards way out as I keep working. I found one on the bay for a very reasonable price! I can't believe that I actually bought a real one of these things, I've been on the hunt since the mid-90's. ;D
You are really lucky to have found one original for a good price! But don't use it as an excuse to not finish your clone ;)
Quote from: digi2t on July 20, 2012, 08:01:27 AM
Those pots are made by P.E.C.. I use the long shaft version, which I cut down to size. I also use the flat shaft style pinion gear, with the circlip. I make the groove for the circlip with a Dremel.
I went to ABRA yesterday and bought the pot. I will cut the shaft and grind it to make it a D-shaft but I'm not sure about how to fit the circlip. I've never worked with that before and I'm totally clueless about how it should fit on the shaft. I get the fact that I have to cut a groove for it but I still don't know how I'm supposed to mount it on the shaft of the pot.
QuoteI went to ABRA yesterday and bought the pot. I will cut the shaft and grind it to make it a D-shaft but I'm not sure about how to fit the circlip. I've never worked with that before and I'm totally clueless about how it should fit on the shaft. I get the fact that I have to cut a groove for it but I still don't know how I'm supposed to mount it on the shaft of the pot.
First, you need to cut your shaft. The total length of shaft should be the length of the gear + 1/16 inch for bushing clearance + 1/8 inch for circlip clearance. Read below for details.
Whatever you do, DO NOT use a grinder to flatten the shaft. Use a file, and go slow, until you can get the gear on snug. Also, when you flatten the shaft, do not file all the way to the pot`s bushing. Leave about 1/16 of an inch, so the gear doesn`t rub on on the bushing when you get the gear on all the way. I jig the shaft in a vise, with just a bit of the radius showing parallel above the top of the jaws. That way, when I file, I can see if I`m straight all the way across.
Taking into account the 1/16, cut the shaft about 1/8 to 3/16 past the end of the gear. This will give you room to make the groove for the circlip. To make the groove, score the shaft so the circlip will nestle up against the end of the gear, when the gear will be completely seated on the shaft. To score the shaft, I use a Dremel with a small thin cutting disc. A small, knife edged file can be used as well. Don`t go too deep, you just need enough of a groove to keep the clip on there.
Hope that helps,
Dino
Thanks Dino, this is a really detailed explanation. But the only part that keeps bugging me is how to insert the circlip. I just have to cut a groove (at the right place) all around the flattened shaft then I should be able to push the circlip from the top of the shaft to the groove that I've just made? Or should I cut the groove only on the flat surface of the shaft?
Sorry if it sound stupid but before today I didn't even knew what a circlip was.
No worries man. Make the groove on the around the round part of the shaft. You won`t need to groove the flat part. Then just work the clip over the end of the shaft, and push it down into the groove.
If by chance you find that the clip is a little loose, take it off, GENTLY squeeze it closed again with a pair of pliers, and try again. Sometimes, if you work them too hard, they tend to open up a bit. A little squeeze tends to solve the problem.
I have made the custom pot today.
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9007/potorientation.jpg)
The lug that I have labelled "1" is the one where I should wire the ground, right? Or should it be t he other way around?
rocker pot toe down = gnd (from: http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig%20Phase%20II%20Clone.pdf (http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig%20Phase%20II%20Clone.pdf))
Quote from: artifus on August 01, 2012, 08:27:50 PM
rocker pot toe down = gnd (from: http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig%20Phase%20II%20Clone.pdf (http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig%20Phase%20II%20Clone.pdf))
I'm sure that it may be really obvious for most people, but for some reason it does confuse me.
Does it mean that I got it reversed? the ground should go to lug 3?
Quote from: Vince_b on August 01, 2012, 09:10:45 PM
Quote from: artifus on August 01, 2012, 08:27:50 PM
rocker pot toe down = gnd (from: http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig%20Phase%20II%20Clone.pdf (http://geofex.com/Article_Folders/Ludwig_P2/Ludwig%20Phase%20II%20Clone.pdf))
I'm sure that it may be really obvious for most people, but for some reason it does confuse me.
Does it mean that I got it reversed? the ground should go to lug 3?
Try to think of it as where the wiper (lug 2) is going when you toe down, or heel down. Just look at the rotation of the gear as you move the pedal, and imagine the wiper moving towards one lug or the other. In this case, you want to go to ground when you're completely heel down, so lug 3 in your picture.
A word of advice; I trimmed down the rubber bumpers on my pedal with an Exacto. I only left about 1/8" showing, just enough to cushion the end of the travel between heel and toe. You have plenty of rotation available on the pot, so you best use it to maximize the sweep through the filters. Once the bumpers are trimmed, set your pot that it's completely at the end of the rotation when you're heel down (ground side). Just leave a TINY amount of play, to compensate for the heel side bumpers. If you find that you're between teeth on the gear, just rotate the pot itself slightly to get you there. Set there, with the trimmer resistances I published here, http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95132.120 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95132.120) , in the quick set up guide, you should be good to go.
Needless to say, I'm dying to hear yours in action :icon_cool:.
@vince AWW CRAP!!!!! I MESSED UP!!!
CORRECTIONQuoteTry to think of it as where the wiper (lug 2) is going when you toe down, or heel down. Just look at the rotation of the gear as you move the pedal, and imagine the wiper moving towards one lug or the other. In this case, you want to go to ground when you're completely heel down, so lug 3 in your picture.
The ground goes to LUG 1 in you picture. Sorry for the mess up.
Toe down to ground is correct.Insofar as setting up the pot is concerned, step 1) of the procedure is incorrect, and should read as follows;
"1) Install your pot in your pedal. One pole goes to ground, the wiper should be on this side of the pot when in toe down position. Adjust the pot position so as the pot sweep is completely
at the end of it's travel when the treadle is completely
heel down. In other word, bottom the pedal, bottoms the pot."
Everything else is OK, including what I said about trimming the rubber bumpers.
My apologies if I threw you a red herring. I must of had a major brain fart that day.
Dino
*EDIT* - I've PM'd Aron, and asked him to correct step 1) of the procedure, posted in reply #139 of this thread. It should read as follows;
1) Install your pot in your pedal. One pole goes to ground, the wiper should be on this side of the pot when in toe down position. Adjust the pot position so as the pot sweep is completely at the end of it's travel when the treadle is completely heel down. In other word, bottom the pedal, bottoms the pot. If you wish, you may also trim the rubber toe/heel bumpers, if you're using a Dunlop type shell, to maximize the amount of sweep. If you do, you can take them down to about 1/8" (3mm), which is enough to cushion the impact. In any case, assure to leave a bit of play on the pot rotation in heel down, to accomodate the deflection of the rubber bumpers. This will avoid having the rack gear jump a tooth if you push heel down too hard.
No problem Dino, I knew that it could be really confusing although it seems very simple ;)
I won't trim the rubber bumpers because the wah shell that I'm using right now is only temporary. It's a bass Crybaby with a spring in it and I'm pretty sure that this is far from ideal for the Ludwig. But I've bought a "standard" Crybaby shell from a forum member and I should receive it soon.
I finally managed to get the ludwig clone working.
I had a hard time finding the right powaer adapter. I got a trafo that outputs 30V ac now and delivers 39V DC when rectified.
I had a problem that after the BD677 transistor I didn't got the wanted voltages. So I did some testing and found out that when I left the BD677 out I got a nice 36V DC in the circuit.
It worked right away and after some quick tuning up (thanks Dino for the quick reference sheet), I got filter sounds out of it.
But the problem know is that i have a loud humm or oscillation, When I turn RF65 it gets louder or softer but never gone.
What is a good place to start to get ridd of this oscillation?
Best regards
RonaldB
Quote from: RonaldB on August 27, 2012, 07:29:05 AM
I finally managed to get the ludwig clone working.
I had a hard time finding the right powaer adapter. I got a trafo that outputs 30V ac now and delivers 39V DC when rectified.
I had a problem that after the BD677 transistor I didn't got the wanted voltages. So I did some testing and found out that when I left the BD677 out I got a nice 36V DC in the circuit.
It worked right away and after some quick tuning up (thanks Dino for the quick reference sheet), I got filter sounds out of it.
But the problem know is that i have a loud humm or oscillation, When I turn RF65 it gets louder or softer but never gone.
What is a good place to start to get ridd of this oscillation?
Best regards
RonaldB
Hmmm...
OK, try this; First, turn R65 completely to one side, where it's the most quiet. Now, work with R55, or R77, AND REMEMBER TO COUNT YOUR TURNS!! Start with R55, and slowly turn it one way. If it makes no difference, or gets worse, back up to your starting point, and go the other way. If it doesn't get better with R55, then repeat the procedure with R77. If that reduces your noise, you can put R65 back to the specified setting.
Don't worry too much about affecting the tonal character of the unit by playing with these trimmers. They will however induce oscillation in the circuit if they're too far out of whack. From what I've seen, the adjustment of these two trimmers has no "hard and fast rule" either. They seem to be different on every unit. They might be there to compensate for slight (or great?) differences in one transistor to the next, in the filter sections. I've had them centered on one unit, while on another they're 90% to one side or the other to kill the oscillation.
Let us know the results.
Quote from: digi2t on August 27, 2012, 08:30:11 AM
Quote from: RonaldB on August 27, 2012, 07:29:05 AM
I finally managed to get the ludwig clone working.
I had a hard time finding the right powaer adapter. I got a trafo that outputs 30V ac now and delivers 39V DC when rectified.
I had a problem that after the BD677 transistor I didn't got the wanted voltages. So I did some testing and found out that when I left the BD677 out I got a nice 36V DC in the circuit.
It worked right away and after some quick tuning up (thanks Dino for the quick reference sheet), I got filter sounds out of it.
But the problem know is that i have a loud humm or oscillation, When I turn RF65 it gets louder or softer but never gone.
What is a good place to start to get ridd of this oscillation?
Best regards
RonaldB
Hmmm...
OK, try this; First, turn R65 completely to one side, where it's the most quiet. Now, work with R55, or R77, AND REMEMBER TO COUNT YOUR TURNS!! Start with R55, and slowly turn it one way. If it makes no difference, or gets worse, back up to your starting point, and go the other way. If it doesn't get better with R55, then repeat the procedure with R77. If that reduces your noise, you can put R65 back to the specified setting.
Don't worry too much about affecting the tonal character of the unit by playing with these trimmers. They will however induce oscillation in the circuit if they're too far out of whack. From what I've seen, the adjustment of these two trimmers has no "hard and fast rule" either. They seem to be different on every unit. They might be there to compensate for slight (or great?) differences in one transistor to the next, in the filter sections. I've had them centered on one unit, while on another they're 90% to one side or the other to kill the oscillation.
Let us know the results.
Unfortuantly this didn't solved the problem.
I tried, after adjusting R65 for the lowest noise point, adjusting R55 and R77. The oscilation went a little lower, but still audioble. I went lower in pitch.
ROnaldB
OK, plan B...
Check transistor voltages. Comparitive numbers can be found in R.G.'s build article.
I am suspicious that the hum may be power supply ripple. The Q6 transistor is a regulator, and wipes off some of the inevitable hum from rectifying AC from a transformer.
One can get the right DC voltage but have ripple. If the frequency/pitch of the hum is always the same, suspect that it's ripple.
As a test and possible fix, temporarily connect at much larger capacitance across C11 or C6. 470uF/50V or larger should work well. The existing 47uF value is marginal unless some additional regulation is used in this application.
Quote from: R.G. on August 27, 2012, 11:18:30 AM
I am suspicious that the hum may be power supply ripple. The Q6 transistor is a regulator, and wipes off some of the inevitable hum from rectifying AC from a transformer.
One can get the right DC voltage but have ripple. If the frequency/pitch of the hum is always the same, suspect that it's ripple.
As a test and possible fix, temporarily connect at much larger capacitance across C11 or C6. 470uF/50V or larger should work well. The existing 47uF value is marginal unless some additional regulation is used in this application.
This helped, the humm is still there but I need to check through my rig to see how bad it is.
Is it better to buy a new BD677 and put it in? Or it there an other solution for the filtering.
thanks,\RonaldB
Just a suggestion,
Maybe it's best to go with "the known", rather than "the unknown". In this case, the power supply you're using is "the unknown". As far as I know, Keppy and myself have used the (basically) same power supply units. Insofar as my unit is concerned, I never had a problem with power supply noise. I don't believe Keppy did either.
If you're getting 36VDC, I'm assuming that's because the Zener is doing it's job. But, I would still recommend the power supply scheme spec'd by R.G.. It works, it's not that expensive, and will most definately take "the unknown" out of the equation.
For the PS I used, the info is here; http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95132.100 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95132.100) , about halfway down the page.
Keep us posted.
Dino
If that helped, the problem really is ripple voltage. That's good, because you know what to do to fix it. That's bad, because the problem is that you don't have high enough input voltage to run the regulator properly.
So no, replacing Q6 will probably not help. The real problem is that your input DC voltage isn't high enough to regulate properly, and that is letting the ripple through.
The voltage regulator of which Q6 is a part is a very simple, crude voltage regulator. It's advantage is that it's simple (!) and cheap - or was cheap at the time the LP2 was designed. The simplest answer is to get a different and larger voltage supply to feed the circuit. Your transformer is not putting out enough voltage. I'm sure this is unwelcome news since you had a problem finding this one.
Here are the solutions I can think of at the moment:
1. Get a different transformer with a little bigger voltage.
2. Get a different transformer with a lower voltage and construct an external voltage doubler/rectifier/filter circuit to get up to about 40-50Vdc.
3. Design and build a better regulator circuit that can work with the lower available DC voltage. This may or may not be simple to do. It's the least likely to succeed simply.
4. Change out the zener diode for a lower one which will let the regulator wipe out the ripple, and hope that the circuit works OK-ish on the lower DC voltage. This might possibly work, but also might not allow the circuit to work right. I worry about this approach with a complicated discrete circuit like this one. I view this as purely experimental.
I listed the approaches in the order I'd try them if it was my own.
> I simul-posted with Dino. <
Quote from: R.G. on August 28, 2012, 10:32:55 AM
If that helped, the problem really is ripple voltage. That's good, because you know what to do to fix it. That's bad, because the problem is that you don't have high enough input voltage to run the regulator properly.
So no, replacing Q6 will probably not help. The real problem is that your input DC voltage isn't high enough to regulate properly, and that is letting the ripple through.
The voltage regulator of which Q6 is a part is a very simple, crude voltage regulator. It's advantage is that it's simple (!) and cheap - or was cheap at the time the LP2 was designed. The simplest answer is to get a different and larger voltage supply to feed the circuit. Your transformer is not putting out enough voltage. I'm sure this is unwelcome news since you had a problem finding this one.
Here are the solutions I can think of at the moment:
1. Get a different transformer with a little bigger voltage.
2. Get a different transformer with a lower voltage and construct an external voltage doubler/rectifier/filter circuit to get up to about 40-50Vdc.
3. Design and build a better regulator circuit that can work with the lower available DC voltage. This may or may not be simple to do. It's the least likely to succeed simply.
4. Change out the zener diode for a lower one which will let the regulator wipe out the ripple, and hope that the circuit works OK-ish on the lower DC voltage. This might possibly work, but also might not allow the circuit to work right. I worry about this approach with a complicated discrete circuit like this one. I view this as purely experimental.
I listed the approaches in the order I'd try them if it was my own.
> I simul-posted with Dino. <
Quote from: digi2t on August 28, 2012, 10:21:38 AM
Just a suggestion,
Maybe it's best to go with "the known", rather than "the unknown". In this case, the power supply you're using is "the unknown". As far as I know, Keppy and myself have used the (basically) same power supply units. Insofar as my unit is concerned, I never had a problem with power supply noise. I don't believe Keppy did either.
If you're getting 36VDC, I'm assuming that's because the Zener is doing it's job. But, I would still recommend the power supply scheme spec'd by R.G.. It works, it's not that expensive, and will most definately take "the unknown" out of the equation.
For the PS I used, the info is here; http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95132.100 (http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=95132.100) , about halfway down the page.
Keep us posted.
Dino
Thanks Dine and R.G.
for the tips. I shall keep you posted on witch direction I will go.
I think i will try 2 differant things:
- First i will try getting a lower zener.
- second get a new adapter.
I did tested it yesterday on my rig but there is still humm but less then it was before as expected.
RonaldB
I FINALLY got to order my parts for this!!!!! Only after working massive amounts of time fixing a science emergency last month. Plus, I'm almost done with my biggest home improvement project so I might actually have time to built it.
I'm so excited and I just can't hide it, I'm about to loose control and I think I like it! :D
Quote from: wavley on January 08, 2013, 10:26:47 AM
I FINALLY got to order my parts for this!!!!! Only after working massive amounts of time fixing a science emergency last month. Plus, I'm almost done with my biggest home improvement project so I might actually have time to built it.
I'm so excited and I just can't hide it, I'm about to loose control and I think I like it! :D
Dude... don`t forget to order some oxy-contin along with those parts. ;D
Seriously, keep us posted. New Ludwig builds are painfully slow in revealing themselves.
Quote from: digi2t on January 08, 2013, 12:04:47 PM
New Ludwig builds are painfully slow in revealing themselves.
Got my board populated with everything but pots and LEDs ;D
Trying to figure out what to do with the enclosure. I would love to do an etch but, I suck at etching :icon_cry:
Still trying to get a hold of a good 10KB pot for my external CV control. "See For Sale thread" :icon_cool:
Unfortunately, I need to muster the courage to start on the enclosure or at least find someone who is willing to etch it for me! Hint...Hint... ::)
The Mouser project document needs to have 25 2n5551 transistors and it only has 16. I was stuffing my pcb yesterday and ran out of devices! That's OK, I have to make another order for some other stuff, just a warning to those that just click the Mouser doc, I did it to make sure I wasn't out of stock on something and miss it. I may have transistors that work here, I haven't had the chance to look.
Quote from: wavley on January 28, 2013, 12:07:30 PM
The Mouser project document needs to have 25 2n5551 transistors and it only has 16. I was stuffing my pcb yesterday and ran out of devices! That's OK, I have to make another order for some other stuff, just a warning to those that just click the Mouser doc, I did it to make sure I wasn't out of stock on something and miss it. I may have transistors that work here, I haven't had the chance to look.
Yo Waverly, you might want to try 2N5088`s in the QF1, QF2, QF3, and QF4 slots. I found that they sound smoother than the 5551`s.
Quote from: wavley on January 28, 2013, 12:07:30 PM
The Mouser project document needs to have 25 2n5551 transistors and it only has 16. I was stuffing my pcb yesterday and ran out of devices! That's OK, I have to make another order for some other stuff, just a warning to those that just click the Mouser doc, I did it to make sure I wasn't out of stock on something and miss it. I may have transistors that work here, I haven't had the chance to look.
BOM updated. Don't know how that happened, but thanks for the update.
https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d (https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d)
Quote from: digi2t on January 28, 2013, 12:29:23 PM
Quote from: wavley on January 28, 2013, 12:07:30 PM
The Mouser project document needs to have 25 2n5551 transistors and it only has 16. I was stuffing my pcb yesterday and ran out of devices! That's OK, I have to make another order for some other stuff, just a warning to those that just click the Mouser doc, I did it to make sure I wasn't out of stock on something and miss it. I may have transistors that work here, I haven't had the chance to look.
Yo Waverly, you might want to try 2N5088`s in the QF1, QF2, QF3, and QF4 slots. I found that they sound smoother than the 5551`s.
Awesome, I have a bunch of those!
Quote from: theehman on January 28, 2013, 12:38:15 PM
Quote from: wavley on January 28, 2013, 12:07:30 PM
The Mouser project document needs to have 25 2n5551 transistors and it only has 16. I was stuffing my pcb yesterday and ran out of devices! That's OK, I have to make another order for some other stuff, just a warning to those that just click the Mouser doc, I did it to make sure I wasn't out of stock on something and miss it. I may have transistors that work here, I haven't had the chance to look.
BOM updated. Don't know how that happened, but thanks for the update.
https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d (https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=9e9fb9c47d)
It's a lot of little parts to count! It's pretty danged easy to get off. Honestly, I got lazy and didn't double check, plus I ALWAYS add 20% more of things like transistors just in case I blow something up/add the extra to my stock. I didn't do either of those things this time!
Quote from: digi2t on January 08, 2013, 12:04:47 PM
Seriously, keep us posted. New Ludwig builds are painfully slow in revealing themselves.
I have all the parts, haven't started yet. It's too darn cold in the shed now plus I got boatloads of other projects :-[
QuoteI have all the parts, haven't started yet
Same
x 2
God help me :icon_eek:
I'll get there in the end
One does not simply walk into mordor.. ;D
Quote from: ~arph on January 29, 2013, 03:33:27 PM
One does not simply walk into mordor.. ;D
Even the trees walked in those $*%*@* movies - Randall Graves ;)
A Couple of questions for folks that actually built this beast.
Currently I'm working on wiring everything from left to right. I have pcb's from the first run.
On the wiring diagram there is a grey wire running between the boards and to the rocker pedal, on the filter board this would be the 5th pad from the left (component side up), but there is no pad. To further confuse things for me, the x-ray version of the diagram doesn't have this pad connected to anything. Are all of the grey wires for the wah pot faking circuit or just the last one that leads off to nowhere labeled optional?
Thanks guys
Quote from: wavley on February 01, 2013, 12:04:14 PM
A Couple of questions for folks that actually built this beast.
Currently I'm working on wiring everything from left to right. I have pcb's from the first run.
On the wiring diagram there is a grey wire running between the boards and to the rocker pedal, on the filter board this would be the 5th pad from the left (component side up), but there is no pad. To further confuse things for me, the x-ray version of the diagram doesn't have this pad connected to anything. Are all of the grey wires for the wah pot faking circuit or just the last one that leads off to nowhere labeled optional?
Thanks guys
I do not have the 1st run boards however...
Could that "pad not connected to anything" on the Filter board actually be connected to the ground pour or a power run? Maybe it is passing the ground or power to the other board AND the rocker pedal.
Just a thought ;D
I`ll take a look at that tonight, and report back. If memory serves me correctly, there was a pad that was represented in the doc, but didn`t make it to final production. Or sumthin like that.
Let you know.
Quote from: wavley on February 01, 2013, 12:04:14 PM
On the wiring diagram there is a grey wire running between the boards and to the rocker pedal, on the filter board this would be the 5th pad from the left (component side up), but there is no pad. To further confuse things for me, the x-ray version of the diagram doesn't have this pad connected to anything.
I just looked at my build and I don't have this grey wire because like you said, there is no pad on the filter board to connect it. I think it was a mistake in the build document but I can be wrong and maybe I just didn't notice it when I built mine.
Quote from: wavley on February 01, 2013, 12:04:14 PM
Are all of the grey wires for the wah pot faking circuit or just the last one that leads off to nowhere labeled optional?
I don't think that the others grey wires are optionals
Well,
It's built, but I screwed up somewhere. q6 is e 4.4 b 25.9 c 47.2 but the zener is 37.1
Voltages everywhere else are pretty screwy, time for the fun part. I was SOOO careful, and apparently I missed something. I even checked solders and for bridges under the microscope before I did my offboard so I guess that's where I messed up. I also forgot to order a bi color LED, and rat shack only has the two leg bi colors, but it's absence shouldn't be causing this problem.
Quote from: wavley on February 01, 2013, 12:04:14 PM
A Couple of questions for folks that actually built this beast.
Currently I'm working on wiring everything from left to right. I have pcb's from the first run.
On the wiring diagram there is a grey wire running between the boards and to the rocker pedal, on the filter board this would be the 5th pad from the left (component side up), but there is no pad. To further confuse things for me, the x-ray version of the diagram doesn't have this pad connected to anything. Are all of the grey wires for the wah pot faking circuit or just the last one that leads off to nowhere labeled optional?
Thanks guys
OK, there is no "5th" pad on the 1st run filter boards as shown in the doc. This was an error in the original doc. Also, since there is no pad, there is no wire between it, and the 12th pad on the Console board as shown in the original doc. This was an error in the doc which was corrected in the second run. The optional wire is for real, if you're using the 100K pot mod.
If you download the latest doc at Geofex, you may use the wiring diagram shown there. Although there were changes made to the boards, the wiring has been corrected, and remains the same.
I figured it all out with the wires, I was using the newest doc from geo already. I rewired a line 6 expression pedal, it's a dual gang 20k in parallel, I just switched it to trs.
My Q6 was in backwards, I wrongly assumed that the printed side faced up on the screened side considering I could find no other markings.
I still have a bit of tuning to do, but it sounds great already!
QuoteMy Q6 was in backwards
Been there, done that brother! Join the club.;D That's why R.G. was nice enough to add the E B C letters for Q6 to the second run boards silkscreen.
This thing is a little scary. We are getting a higher percentage of "Oh, yeah, I moved that wire (or flipped the transistor around, or...) and it worked" than we do on Neovibes. :icon_eek:
I expected a lot more more sturm und drang.
Quote from: digi2t on February 01, 2013, 10:37:44 PM
QuoteMy Q6 was in backwards
Been there, done that brother! Join the club.;D That's why R.G. was nice enough to add the E B C letters for Q6 to the second run boards silkscreen.
I know, I saw your voltages and tried it out on mine. Thanks for helping shorten my troubleshooting! ;)
My problem was that I was looking at Q6's datasheet on my phone and my device was a bit lacking in markings and assumed the pinout they gave was for the print side facing me, apparently I was wrong.
Quote from: R.G. on February 02, 2013, 12:02:17 AM
This thing is a little scary. We are getting a higher percentage of "Oh, yeah, I moved that wire (or flipped the transistor around, or...) and it worked" than we do on Neovibes. :icon_eek:
I expected a lot more more sturm und drang.
A testament to how good your build document is and how dumb I can be!
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/c0.0.403.403/p403x403/563687_4971029949631_1525209780_n.jpg)
Not quite done. I need different knobs and I originally planned on putting it into a D box so I need to extend a few wires. Also since I didn't have a proper bi color led, I used two 3mm leds.
My wife and I found this cheap at an antique mall today, I just had to do it. I'm still baffled by the fact that this box even exists, it won hands down over a Jedi lunchbox.
If you have the Thermos that went along with it, then it`s worth more than your project. Saw the box w/thermos selling on the net for $175. It`s circa 1973 btw, so it fits the era of the effect quite nicely, bravo. :icon_lol:
Quote from: digi2t on February 04, 2013, 12:11:49 PM
If you have the Thermos that went along with it, then it`s worth more than your project. Saw the box w/thermos selling on the net for $175. It`s circa 1973 btw, so it fits the era of the effect quite nicely, bravo. :icon_lol:
No thermos, that's why I did it. Also, I thought the whole thing would be very fitting for the music. Well maybe not, I guess I think Seals and Crofts when I think JLS, but think how much more fun Seals and Crofts would be if they had one of these!
Everything is working and sounding great now. I did the meter tuning and some by ear, tonight I'm going to make my wiring fit this box and get out my scope.
edit: wrong thread
Does anyone else get lfo bleed through the stereo out when everything is bypassed? I don't get lfo bleed in the main out, just the stereo... strange. I have shielded cable on all ins and outs.
I'm thinking of adding a mix pot so I get the dry and phase out of the main out so I can run it in front of my space echo, that way I can just stomp on both at the same time so it really isn't that much of a problem, but I was considering running it last so I can take advantage of it's stereoness, that way the echoes will be defined in one amp and all ludwiged in the other, but not if I can't kill that lfo thump.
Quote from: wavley on February 05, 2013, 09:11:23 PM
Does anyone else get lfo bleed through the stereo out when everything is bypassed? I don't get lfo bleed in the main out, just the stereo... strange. I have shielded cable on all ins and outs.
I'm thinking of adding a mix pot so I get the dry and phase out of the main out so I can run it in front of my space echo, that way I can just stomp on both at the same time so it really isn't that much of a problem, but I was considering running it last so I can take advantage of it's stereoness, that way the echoes will be defined in one amp and all ludwiged in the other, but not if I can't kill that lfo thump.
Yup, got it on mine too. Actually, I get it on the main too, only when I have the fuzz repeats cranked though. Never noticed it before, since I never rarely use the fuzz repeats, and the stereo out even less. Good catch.
My first instinct would be to try and find a way to ground the LFO when in bypass. Maybe use a 3PDT switch for the bypass, and bring another wire from W16 (or the Animation switch) to it. Have it go to ground when you go to bypass, killing the LFO. This is a band-aid though, since it doesn't solve the LFO noise on the stereo out side when the effect is on. This might, or might not, be acceptable.
Looking at the schematic, I wonder if the LFO is bleeding through the Bypass Balance pot, since both signals come through the same buffer. Remember, this isn't true bypass. Maybe an extra cap is required somewhere on the stereo line, to squelch the ticking on that side? R.G.? Help? (Gulp!)
I am sure this is a futile request at the moment but...
Does this happen on the ORIGINAL unit?
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on February 07, 2013, 07:28:05 AM
I am sure this is a futile request at the moment but...
Does this happen on the ORIGINAL unit?
Bro, I`ve asked the same question, but due to having too many plates spinning this week, I haven`t had a chance to pull out Grandpaw and check.
On the Honey do list.
Quote from: digi2t on February 07, 2013, 11:25:11 AM
Bro, I`ve asked the same question, but due to having too many plates spinning this week, I haven`t had a chance to pull out Grandpaw and check.
On the Honey do list.
I hear ya' ;D Gotta keep them plates a spinnin'
As for me, I am just spinning my wheels because I cannot decide whether or not to get an enclosure done up all pretty OR just drill some holes and start populating :icon_rolleyes:
I want to get this up and working but I just know that I will regret not making it all pretty like :-[
I gave up making them pretty a long time ago. Bare aluminium, and a P-Touch is all I use now. I found it kind of funny when my nephew saw me using one of my non-descrip pedals, and asked, «Hey, what is that?». I simply replied, «A pedal». To this day, he still bugs me, and I still haven`t told him what it is. Ah, sweet revenge! :icon_mrgreen:
I`m also really partial to Ronsound`s pedals. No fancy gimmicks, or artwork. Just good circuits. That`s it. Nuff said.
OK, checked Grandpaw, and yup, R.G. did a fantastic job! The stereo side ticks, even in bypass. We seemed to have cloned everything about this sucker, even it's faults. :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on February 07, 2013, 11:31:47 AM
I want to get this up and working but I just know that I will regret not making it all pretty like :-[
That's how I felt, and it's what drove me to etch a 1590D for the project. It was my second etched enclosure ever, and I spent hours sanding and ironing trying to get it to work, which it (mostly) did.
I wouldn't do it again. But man it looks cool!
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on February 07, 2013, 07:28:05 AM
I am sure this is a futile request at the moment but...
Does this happen on the ORIGINAL unit?
it sure does... but only when the fuzz repeat is cranked up as dino said.
that IS funny...it seems to share all the quirks of the original! ;)
Apparently I can't work the search function today so please excuse me.
I seem to remember somebody coming up with a mod to keep the signal to the filters from being so hot and keeping them from clipping. Does anybody remember what this was?
Quote from: wavley on February 10, 2013, 12:34:48 PM
Apparently I can't work the search function today so please excuse me.
I seem to remember somebody coming up with a mod to keep the signal to the filters from being so hot and keeping them from clipping. Does anybody remember what this was?
Replace resistor RF26 (47K) with a 50K trimmer. Crunching the filters a tad? :icon_razz:
Quote from: digi2t on February 10, 2013, 02:21:11 PM
Quote from: wavley on February 10, 2013, 12:34:48 PM
Apparently I can't work the search function today so please excuse me.
I seem to remember somebody coming up with a mod to keep the signal to the filters from being so hot and keeping them from clipping. Does anybody remember what this was?
Replace resistor RF26 (47K) with a 50K trimmer. Crunching the filters a tad? :icon_razz:
Yeah, and not in a good way like on a Moog ;D I even have vintage pickups, but I use an old Masco tube mixer that I modified to be my input preamp so my guitar is always plugged straight into a tube. Honestly, in some respects I like the grittiness of crunching them, I would just like a little more control over it, I can always boost my signal a bit if I want crunch. My effected signal is actually a little louder than my bypassed too, so I think taming down the filter will benefit me in a few ways.
I've mentioned somewhere in the past, you may even desire to mount RF26 as a 50K pot on the outside. Then you can tweak it for different guitars. I recently repaired and recapped an original unit for a gentleman, and replacing the original resistor with a trimmer was one of the agreed upon mods. He was very happy with the way the unit behaved thereafter.
Quote from: digi2t on February 12, 2013, 02:16:47 PM
I've mentioned somewhere in the past, you may even desire to mount RF26 as a 50K pot on the outside. Then you can tweak it for different guitars. I recently repaired and recapped an original unit for a gentleman, and replacing the original resistor with a trimmer was one of the agreed upon mods. He was very happy with the way the unit behaved thereafter.
I knew you had mentioned it somewhere, but apparently my search terms were a bit lacking the other day because I just couldn't seem to find it. I was considering adding it to the outside, I have plenty of room in my box.
Can't go wrong with that. Just ensure that it's out of the way.
So you folks that have built/own one of these, is your effected signal louder than your bypassed? And where would be a good place to knock this down a little, somewhere around QF+1?
Quote from: wavley on February 26, 2013, 10:22:57 AM
So you folks that have built/own one of these, is your effected signal louder than your bypassed? And where would be a good place to knock this down a little, somewhere around QF+1?
I believe Dino mentioned in the Rev 2 build that replacing QF+1, QF+2, QF+3, and QF+4 with 2N5088s. Dont know if it was due to level issues but it is something to try.
Dino??
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on February 26, 2013, 10:36:19 AM
Quote from: wavley on February 26, 2013, 10:22:57 AM
So you folks that have built/own one of these, is your effected signal louder than your bypassed? And where would be a good place to knock this down a little, somewhere around QF+1?
I believe Dino mentioned in the Rev 2 build that replacing QF+1, QF+2, QF+3, and QF+4 with 2N5088s. Dont know if it was due to level issues but it is something to try.
Dino??
The only mention I remember of those was that he said they sound smoother, but if I remember correctly 5088s have more gain than 5551s so that might not solve my issue, it's worth a try. I should have socketed those. I replaced rf26 with a 50k pot, and that balanced everything out, but still my bypass seems to be about unity and effected is pretty loud, the meter on my space echo isn't super accurate but it's enough to tell me it's not just perceived volume.
Internal 100K trimmer for unity balance??
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on February 26, 2013, 11:41:59 AM
Internal 100K trimmer for unity balance??
I was thinking about that, it's probably the easiest way to go.
I did some looking at the schemo again. Try reducing RF+2 from 47K to something smaller. That directly cuts the gain of the transistor without affecting its bias.
Dropping it to something like 10K - 22k should drop the output level.
OK, I figured that if I could vero an Infinitphase, I might just take a shot at a vero of the Ludwig. I don't plan on having anymore boards made, but I would like there to be another option for DIY'er as craz... er... dedicated as myself (OK, crazy too :icon_rolleyes:).
R.G., could you please explain the numbering convention you used for the wire pads on the boards? I tried following it vis-a-vis the schematic, but some of the numbers don't make sense to me, i.e. pad number on schematic not corresponding with counting pads/where wire is going in wiring diagram.
Am I not seeing something here?
you are a madman. that's why we love ya, bro!! :icon_mrgreen:
A synth player wants me to build him one of these, so I've been investigating using the PII with line-level devices. The lo-Z input seems to work okay, and there's enough gain in it that I get a reasonable output level, especially with the filters on (and why would they be off? :)). There's some distortion with the fuzz off, but there's some of that using a guitar anyway. Anyone out there got a PII and a line-level synth to play through it? I'd appreciate another opinion. So far I'm planning to build it stock but increase the Lo-Z Balance pot and use Dino's trimpot mod for the input level to the filters.
Quote from: Keppy on April 03, 2013, 01:15:49 AM
A synth player wants me to build him one of these, so I've been investigating using the PII with line-level devices. The lo-Z input seems to work okay, and there's enough gain in it that I get a reasonable output level, especially with the filters on (and why would they be off? :)). There's some distortion with the fuzz off, but there's some of that using a guitar anyway. Anyone out there got a PII and a line-level synth to play through it? I'd appreciate another opinion. So far I'm planning to build it stock but increase the Lo-Z Balance pot and use Dino's trimpot mod for the input level to the filters.
Try swapping out RF26 for a 50K trimmer first, and dialing down the signal hitting the filters without fuzz. You'll find that you'll also be able to balance between the fuzz and clean volume levels as well. Let us know how incresing the balance pot works out.
For those wondering, yes, I have started a PII vero. This is what I have to date;
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Ludwigvero_zps188f1b96.jpg)
I'm using 1W carbon film resistors to power the LED's, to cut down on the parts count. The blank section in the middle is where the input buffers, fuzz section and output amp will go. I'm working on that today. Amazingly enough, this vero seems to be a bit easier to put together than the Infinitphase, but I'm sure I'm fooling myself. I've probably bodged the filter sections, and I'll have some hefty corrections to do.
At 6.5" x 4.5", this board will easily fit the Multicomp box that I used for my Ludwig. Once all the components are aboard, I might be able to shrink it a tad more, but I don't see it making it into a 1590DD.
I was already going to put that trimmer in. I mostly want to check that others are able to get output volume reasonably close to input volume with a variety of line-level devices, since I don't have many to test with (just a theremin and cheap digital piano).
Quote from: digi2t on March 29, 2013, 11:41:16 AM
R.G., could you please explain the numbering convention you used for the wire pads on the boards? I tried following it vis-a-vis the schematic, but some of the numbers don't make sense to me, i.e. pad number on schematic not corresponding with counting pads/where wire is going in wiring diagram.
Am I not seeing something here?
Sorry - been traveling, and just got back to this.
Actually, no, there isn't something you're not seeing here. The wire pad numbering convention is arbitrary. It was done automatically (which means "without making sense to a human") by the schemo program. Well, it's probably not truly random. I think the program numbers them from left to right across the page in rows from the schematic placement, or tries to. That's probably what accounts for some of them seeming to make sense, the others not, as the layout may tend to follow the schematic graphic arrangement in some place, not others.
As long as wire-pad-to-wire-pad is preserved, it's fine to renumber them to anything. In fact, for a rework into vero, it probably makes sense to put them where you need them for the vero to make logical sense, then renumber or rename them to match the physical layout. I didn't do that last step on the PCB. I probably will if there's ever another commercial run.
Interesting .......
I was thinking of laying out a pair of boards with male and female headers to mate between the two and holes in the bottom board to allow access to the trim pots....
Andy
It's not a big problem. That would take me an hour or so, tops.
However, that makes the layout highly dependent on the availability of the headers and sockets chosen.
Quote from: UKToecutter on April 03, 2013, 12:45:33 PM
Interesting .......
I was thinking of laying out a pair of boards with male and female headers to mate between the two and holes in the bottom board to allow access to the trim pots....
Andy
Quote from: R.G. on April 03, 2013, 01:34:19 PM
It's not a big problem. That would take me an hour or so, tops.
However, that makes the layout highly dependent on the availability of the headers and sockets chosen.
I have to say that would be awesome! The offboard wiring got tedious on this one and that's with board mounted pots and switches! I would build a second one if I didn't have to do all that wiring again!
Quote from: wavley on April 03, 2013, 02:35:23 PM
The offboard wiring got tedious on this one and that's with board mounted pots and switches! I would build a second one if I didn't have to do all that wiring again!
Doing all of the wiring is not that big of a deal to me. Keeping all of it neat and tidy IS A HUGE deal for me ::)
Well this is what I came up with. Still needs trace verfication for the buffer/amplifier section. Sorry, I couldn't get it to 1590DD size :icon_rolleyes:.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/Ludwigvero_zps522d052a.jpg)
I've used the same component numbering convention, so as to keep some uniformity with the build document. For the LED resistors, I used 8.2K 1 watt carbon comp dimensions.
I'm going to do a full verification trace next, I'll let you know when it gets my official okee dokee.
No worries on the wire pad numbers R.G.. I traced it out the offboard wiring on the schematic, it's fine.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on April 03, 2013, 02:44:19 PM
Quote from: wavley on April 03, 2013, 02:35:23 PM
The offboard wiring got tedious on this one and that's with board mounted pots and switches! I would build a second one if I didn't have to do all that wiring again!
Doing all of the wiring is not that big of a deal to me. Keeping all of it neat and tidy IS A HUGE deal for me ::)
OK, you got me, neat and tidy is my deal too.
I have just noticed that my Ludwig (clone) make my sound distort when it's bypassed. With active pickups it's even worse, it sounds like I'm playing through an overdrive. Has anyone experimented something similar?
I believe this is caused by the fact that the input to the Ludwig never really "bypasses". It is always there, kind of sloppily "buffering" the signal. If you feed it too big a signal, it will distort, and I'm guessing that this is what's happening to you, especially if it's worse with active pickups. There is some possibility of a bug in your input stage, and it's worth trying to run that down.
There are many different minor issues with the Ludwig P2 from a design standpoint, and this is one of them.
See if you can measure the dc voltages on the first four transistors at the input and post them here. We may be able to find a bug if there is one. But you may have to do some other kind of bypass to get around this.
If you have active pickups, you can try using the Lo Z input and see if it helps.
I think I have found the "problem". It happens that I was plugged into the Lo Z input. I switched to the Hi Z input and now there is no saturation. That explains why I haven't noticed this before.
My guitar with active pickups still distort in both input, but when I think about it, these pickups can saturate most clean amps just by themselves ;D.
I will still post the voltages of the first four transistors to make sure that everything is alright because I'm a little bit surprised that the Lo Z is more prone to get overdriven than the Hi Z.
Q1
E: 35 v
B: 32 v
C: 36 v
Q2
E: 0 v
B1: 0.44 v
B2: 15.6 v
Q3
E: 0 v
B: 0.67 v
C:0.06 v
Q4
E: 0 v
B: 0.06v
C: 14 v
Quote from: Vince_b on April 12, 2013, 12:00:36 PM
I think I have found the "problem". It happens that I was plugged into the Lo Z input. I switched to the Hi Z input and now there is no saturation. That explains why I haven't noticed this before.
My guitar with active pickups still distort in both input, but when I think about it, these pickups can saturate most clean amps just by themselves ;D.
I will still post the voltages of the first four transistors to make sure that everything is alright because I'm a little bit surprised that the Lo Z is more prone to get overdriven than the Hi Z.
Q1
E: 35 v
B: 32 v
C: 36 v
Q2
E: 0 v
B1: 0.44 v
B2: 15.6 v
Q3
E: 0 v
B: 0.67 v
C:0.06 v
Q4
E: 0 v
B: 0.06v
C: 14 v
Yo Vinny, just out of curiousity, what transistors did you use for QF 1 - 4? (I believe you meant QF, and not Q for the transistors you measured?)
I don't use actives, but I do use some pretty hot passives (18K to 22K range), and I found that 2N5088 worked much better for me in these slots. From my research, I found that they are a better match to the original transistor spec's, giving voltages very close to the original units as well.
I'm not surprised that the overload characteristics of each input are different, though. The input to the high-Z is an emitter follower, and has a biggish input range while the Lo-Z is an amplifier with a smaller range.
One simple thing you could do to adapt the Ludwig to your guitars and playing style is to put a signal divider in front of the input just to lower the signal level of your guitar down til it quits overloading the first stage(s).
I actually need to look at the voltages on QF1-QF4. Sorry, I realize I wasn't clear about that.
VERY GOOD info for me! I am about to embark on completing my Ludwig build and I use Active buckers run at 18V :icon_eek:
@Vince
Did you also use shorting jacks for the Lo Z/Hi Z inputs so that the unused input would be shunted to Ground?
Thanks SO MUCH to Dino, RG, and all who have contributed! Hoping to have some actual build input to this thread this weekend! :icon_cool:
QuoteDid you also use shorting jacks for the Lo Z/Hi Z inputs so that the unused input would be shunted to Ground?
Uh yeah, I forgot to mention that one too, but it's pretty clear in the build doc. Check the wiring section, page 7.
Quote from: digi2t on April 12, 2013, 01:15:22 PM
QuoteDid you also use shorting jacks for the Lo Z/Hi Z inputs so that the unused input would be shunted to Ground?
Uh yeah, I forgot to mention that one too, but it's pretty clear in the build doc. Check the wiring section, page 7.
To quote Yogi Berra:
"Its like Deja Vu'... all over again!" ;)
Quote from: digi2t on April 12, 2013, 01:00:41 PM
Yo Vinny, just out of curiousity, what transistors did you use for QF 1 - 4? (I believe you meant QF, and not Q for the transistors you measured?)
Nope, that was the measurements for Q1-4. I looked at the "Inputs, mixer, and buffers" page of the build document and it looks like there is no suffix in this partial schematic to distinguish between the transistors from the filter board and main board. By looking at the full schematic it's clear that I should have measured QF1-4 instead. I used 2N5551 as recommended.
QF1
E: 0 v
B: 0.65 v
C: 3.13 v
QF2
E: 3.53 v
B: 4.09 V
C: 11.28 V
QF3
E: 0 V
B: 0.63 V
C: 7.43 V
QF4
E: 2.63 V
B: 3.14 V
C: 11.3 V
Quote from: R.G. on April 12, 2013, 01:01:50 PM
One simple thing you could do to adapt the Ludwig to your guitars and playing style is to put a signal divider in front of the input just to lower the signal level of your guitar down til it quits overloading the first stage(s).
Right now it's not really an issue because the Ludwig works well with my main guitar in the Hi Z, but I will keep that in mind.
But I'm still curious if it's peculiar to my build or if all Ludwig have saturation issues in the Lo Z input.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on April 12, 2013, 01:10:19 PM
Did you also use shorting jacks for the Lo Z/Hi Z inputs so that the unused input would be shunted to Ground?
Yes, I used shorting jacks.
QuoteRight now it's not really an issue because the Ludwig works well with my main guitar in the Hi Z, but I will keep that in mind.
But I'm still curious if it's peculiar to my build or if all Ludwig have saturation issues in the Lo Z input.
I guess G_L will be able to tell us that... eventually. His build-joy just got sabotaged by an LED. :icon_lol:
Sorry brother, couldn't resist.
If you feel like trying it, try the 2N5088's in QF1 to QF4. I think you might be pleasantly surprised by the difference. Q1 to Q4 is part of the Animation section, and shouldn't impact on the sound of the unit.
Quote from: digi2t on April 12, 2013, 03:37:55 PM
His build-joy just got sabotaged by an LED. :icon_lol:
Not sabotaged Don Dino..... It has merely DELAYED the inevitable! :icon_twisted:
That eventually, I will be posting on this thread and looking for debug help! :icon_redface:
Quote from: R.G. on April 12, 2013, 01:01:50 PM
One simple thing you could do to adapt the Ludwig to your guitars and playing style is to put a signal divider in front of the input just to lower the signal level of your guitar down til it quits overloading the first stage(s).
The Low Z input already has this. The Low Z Balance pot makes a resistor divider with RF1 & RF76. If my synth player ever gets back to me about building him one, I'm going to increase the value of that pot for greater range. It wouldn't help passive pickups because of the treble loss caused by the low impedance, but I wanted to bring this up in case it helps anyone else. The advantages of doing this are that it's adjustable, uses controls already on the layout, and requires no build modification, just a substitute value. The disadvantage is the aforementioned treble loss with most guitars, plus it seems a bit kludgy to divide the signal just to re-amplify it.
Quote from: Keppy on April 12, 2013, 04:24:05 PM
... it seems a bit kludgy to divide the signal just to re-amplify it.
Yep.
There are several things I'd change if I were re-engineering this. I suspect from all the little oddities we've seen that it was hurriedly designed by not-the-people-who-sold-it and that they did not have the advantage of looking at electronics from this side of nearly half a century later.
I messed with a re-engineering of the intent if not the actual style of this mess into a single foot-controlled pedal. It's rough, but demonstrates the possibilities. Right now it's resting in the bin with the rest of "Kool! We gotta sell those when we get the chance!" :icon_biggrin:
Well... it appears that my SWEET Ludwig build will be on hold for a little while longer :-[
After some careful planning, I guess I will need to make adjustments and order a few parts.
- Gotta get some tip-shunt enclosed jacks for the Inputs (ANY RECOMENDATIONS ON THIS WOULD BE APPRECIATED. CHEAP AND FAST IS PREFERRED)
- Gotta get some shorter PCB stand-offs. The pieces I have are just too high and I need a bit more space.
- Gotta do some metal work in order to fit the DC jack. :icon_cry:
- Gotta get a comon cathode LED (already on its way)
Cant do any wiring until I get the jacks and the stand-offs as I cant get accurate measurements without them :icon_rolleyes:
More to come soon-ish :icon_twisted:
Quote- Gotta get some tip-shunt enclosed jacks for the Inputs (ANY RECOMENDATIONS ON THIS WOULD BE APPRECIATED. CHEAP AND FAST IS PREFERRED)
Effects Connection. I use the open Neutrik jacks though. I find that I can turn them, and get them to fit into much tighter spots than the enclosed Switchcraft ones.
http://www.effectsconnection.com/oscommerce/product_info.php?cPath=2_63&products_id=606 (http://www.effectsconnection.com/oscommerce/product_info.php?cPath=2_63&products_id=606)
Quote- Gotta get some shorter PCB stand-offs. The pieces I have are just too high and I need a bit more space.
Dremel with a cut-off disc?
Quote- Gotta do some metal work in order to fit the DC jack.
Sorry. Can`t help ya there. Just make sure to pay up your dues to your local tin bashers union before performing any work. :icon_rolleyes:
Quote- Gotta get a comon cathode LED (already on its way)
Wasn`t that the snowball that triggered this whole avalanche? :icon_mrgreen:
^^^^^^
I saw the ones at Effects Connection. They are about the best pricing I can find with shipping however, still about $7-8 for 2 jacks with shipping :icon_redface:
As for the standoffs... I am planning on using the plastic ones with adhesive backs as per the build doc. The ones I have are 9.5mm and 12.7mm high. These are too high. I need the ones that are 5mm high. So, the dremel idea wont work here.
I DO have some Bi-Color LEDs on the way though ;)
Has anyone been able to figure out how to filter out the ticking that increases with the Intensity pot. I am told it is inherent in the originals as well.
Just wondering if anyone has figured out how to get rid of it :-\
Other than the annoying ticking, I got this bad boy tuned in and running smooth 8)
Sorry bro, I never had time to look into that. Had to pack everything. It's in a box somewhere now, as is my whole shop! :icon_evil:
I HATE MOVING...VING...VING...VING!!!!!!
I was thinking that a cap somewhere in the Percussion Repeat area might be able to take the remaining edge off of it, without critically affecting the performance, but I just didn't have time to play with the idea.
well, it's not really TICKING... it's a repeat percussion effect, it's kinda supposed to be "ticky" not tremolo-y.
it's actually kinda cool, as each click is like a fresh attack, sorta. it gives the repeat percussion thing some bite.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 22, 2013, 12:01:07 AM
well, it's not really TICKING... it's a repeat percussion effect, it's kinda supposed to be "ticky" not tremolo-y.
it's actually kinda cool, as each click is like a fresh attack, sorta. it gives the repeat percussion thing some bite.
This is what I've always been thinking. To me it's a "feature" of the Ludwig.
exactly vince. some people LIKE that kinda sound (like me).... it's a repeat percussion, not all that different from say, a kay tremolo kinda soiund.
i think it's pretty cool and useful, but... thinking about it... i bet adding a switch to go and double the rate would be cool as hell, get some mosquito-y ring mod-y kinda noises maybe.
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 22, 2013, 12:24:20 AM
i bet adding a switch to go and double the rate would be cool as hell, get some mosquito-y ring mod-y kinda noises maybe.
OR... possibly a switch to add/remove it ;)
to remove it, all ya gotta do is turn down the knob tho.
rather "have" it then "lose" it, to me, it's a feature...it sounds a lot cooler than i think peeps realize until they hear it. ;)
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on May 22, 2013, 12:24:20 AM
exactly vince. some people LIKE that kinda sound (like me).... it's a repeat percussion, not all that different from say, a kay tremolo kinda soiund.
i think it's pretty cool and useful, but... thinking about it... i bet adding a switch to go and double the rate would be cool as hell, get some mosquito-y ring mod-y kinda noises maybe.
Well, I like the the repeat percussion sound too, it's like an old Spacemen 3 record, it's not at all like the kick drum sounding LFO thump that I get from my Wiggler if the intensity knob gets above 10 or 11 o'clock. I would like it to shut the heck up when the unit is in bypass though.
I'm hoping to get in there this week and work on it a bit, like using the extra poles on my bypass switch to kill the LFO and bringing down the effected volume to close to the same as the bypassed. This thing is an acquired taste of an effect as it is. I don't really need it to melt the audience's faces off when I turn it on too. Just melting their ears and brains will due for me thank you.
A double rate switch would be pretty awesome, I have mine set a a real compromise right now.
Of course, I have to fix Ned's brownie Vibrolux this week and have it done by the time he comes back through town, so we'll see what I actually get to.
One of these days I'll get time to look at improving the design some.
I'm still kind of amazed that the factory schemos worked as shown.... :icon_lol:
i remember when trying to debug mine, there was a 500r trimmer on the fall board that had failed, BUT it made the repeat percussion part actually work right. as soon as i replaced it, it got funky again. ;)
it's amazing this thing EVER worked. how cool is that? :icon_mrgreen:
Every time I turn up the Intensity pot.... it reminds me of the motion sensor gadget from Aliens ::)
I am trying to find a pic of the original ad that explains what each control is responsible for. Is this all that the Intensity pot controls?
yah, they were definitely gobbling the brown acid...
all the controls, i mean ALL of them, are HIGHLY interactive.
once ya follow dino's set up guide, you may wanna just barely tweak the trimmers here and there some to see what happens.
Quote from: R.G. on May 22, 2013, 10:13:07 AM
I'm still kind of amazed that the factory schemos worked as shown.... :icon_lol:
It didn't. :icon_wink:
Remember all the inaccurate resistor values and the backwards UJT? And the missing booster? And all the switching that wasn't diagrammed at all? And the missing pot values? I'm sure I'm forgetting something...
Quote from: Keppy on May 23, 2013, 02:08:33 AM
Quote from: R.G. on May 22, 2013, 10:13:07 AM
I'm still kind of amazed that the factory schemos worked as shown.... :icon_lol:
It didn't. :icon_wink:
Remember all the inaccurate resistor values and the backwards UJT? And the missing booster? And all the switching that wasn't diagrammed at all? And the missing pot values? I'm sure I'm forgetting something...
amazing drummers got it to work at all.... god loves fools and little children, they say...
Quote from: Keppy on May 23, 2013, 02:08:33 AM
It didn't. :icon_wink:
Remember all the inaccurate resistor values and the backwards UJT? And the missing booster? And all the switching that wasn't diagrammed at all? And the missing pot values? I'm sure I'm forgetting something...
Oh, sure. Slap me with the facts about how bad the good old days really were...
:icon_lol:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=36392.msg917803#msg917803
;) :icon_eek:
Wow! Nice work!
+1. I dig the smaller knobs for the last two controls.
Has anybody tried using a JFET for the Hi-Z input buffer? I just bought a new amp and after playing straight into it and then plugging into my rig I noticed that I'm loosing some low end and a little sparkle leaving just the haunting mid range ;) plugging into the Lo-Z input gives my low end back (but it distorts too easily), so I was going to up the input cap (QF3, if I remember correctly from glancing at the schem last night). So I figured that maybe I could tinker with this buffer a little while I'm in there.
There's 35V running around in there, so it rules out my MPF102's, but I do believe I have a small stash of J201's.
The Hi-Z input could certainly profit from some upgrading.
... but then it wouldn't be *original* :icon_lol:
The input there is about 200K if I did the math right, and with a 0.01, that gives a rolloff of 79Hz, so you are losing some bass, and probably some treble from the loading on guitar pickups.
One easy upgrade would be to sub in a 2N7000 or BS170 MOSFET for the NPN, and change the biasing 680K's up to about 2.2M each. That thing's running from the 17V supply, so it probably has enough voltage that you don't have to diddle the values of the bias network to make up for the 2-4V of the MOSFET gate threshold that the output resistor will drop.
Personally... and while we are talking about Phase 2 modding....
I wouldnt mind smoothing out the Fuzz on this bad boy. To me, it just seems too sputtery and grainy and the decay has something left to be desired. :-\ I know it isnt the MAIN focus of the pedal but.....
Thoughts?
Quote from: R.G. on February 06, 2014, 12:09:54 PM
The Hi-Z input could certainly profit from some upgrading.
... but then it wouldn't be *original* :icon_lol:
The input there is about 200K if I did the math right, and with a 0.01, that gives a rolloff of 79Hz, so you are losing some bass, and probably some treble from the loading on guitar pickups.
One easy upgrade would be to sub in a 2N7000 or BS170 MOSFET for the NPN, and change the biasing 680K's up to about 2.2M each. That thing's running from the 17V supply, so it probably has enough voltage that you don't have to diddle the values of the bias network to make up for the 2-4V of the MOSFET gate threshold that the output resistor will drop.
Mine is built in a Jonathan Livingston Seagull lunchbox, at this point I'm not sure original is a concern for me ;D My Traynor was a bit boomier than the Cornford I just acquired so it didn't come up as an issue until last night, I foresee it being a bigger problem when I play my baritone.
I *think* I might have a BS170 around, I know I have an IRF510 I picked up at Radio Shack because I saw somebody had built an SHO with one that I never got around to building.
I REALLY need to make a parts order soon to replenish my stock and build that Schumann who's board is sitting on my nightstand.
So I bypassed the .01 cap with a 10uF and all my bass was back. I didn't get around to putting in a MOSFET yet, hopefully I'll get to that soon.
I think I've mentioned this before, but has anyone else noticed that the effected signal is louder than the bypassed? Or is there something wrong with mine? It certainly doesn't sound broken or anything but often I find myself reaching for a volume knob and then turning back up after I turn it off. I guess my question is, should I be looking for an issue, or should I just add an attenuator to the effected output?
Well, I finally got around to adding a volume control to my effected out and combined with the mixing resistors I added a while back so I could use the stereo out switch as a mono clean blend I have to say that it's made this so much more of a versatile unit! Now I can push it to the background and have it follow cleaner sounds for added dimension so I'll be able to turn it on a little more often without melting people's faces and brains.
have a schematic drawing of the volume mix add?
Quote from: newperson on April 15, 2014, 09:38:53 PM
have a schematic drawing of the volume mix add?
It was a while back that I added the mixer resistor, but it was probably a 10k jumped from the stereo out jack to the normal out. The effected volume control is just a 500k pot (it's what I had handy) wired as a voltage divider interrupting the wire from the wet out to the bypass switch.
A better way to do it might be to add a pot with the center lug going to the wet out lug on the bypass switch with the stereo (dry) out wire and the wet wire on the outside lugs to use as a blend control. I wanted to keep the stereo out just in case, I can add a switch to kill the dry signal going to the main out and have the original functionality.
Quote from: R.G. on February 06, 2014, 12:09:54 PM
The Hi-Z input could certainly profit from some upgrading.
... but then it wouldn't be *original* :icon_lol:
The input there is about 200K if I did the math right, and with a 0.01, that gives a rolloff of 79Hz, so you are losing some bass, and probably some treble from the loading on guitar pickups.
One easy upgrade would be to sub in a 2N7000 or BS170 MOSFET for the NPN, and change the biasing 680K's up to about 2.2M each. That thing's running from the 17V supply, so it probably has enough voltage that you don't have to diddle the values of the bias network to make up for the 2-4V of the MOSFET gate threshold that the output resistor will drop.
Turns out I have some VN10 and VN99 MOSFETs around, but I was recently working on a friend's Marshall and it's input VN2410 MOSFET was cooked, of course I don't know anything about what they were doing to the amp when it happened, but it makes me want to overbuild on the reliable side.
Thoughts from the head of R.G. on this one?
Paralleling RF7 and RF8 with 1N4007 diodes pointing up would help. Also, put a 12V zener with anode on the gate after the 1K and cathode to the source. This won't help if someone connects AC wall socket voltage to it, but it willl probably keep all minor disasters at bay.
Question for RG or others that have built this pedal.... I know I have asked this before and I cannot find my notes on the matter so....
Specifically, I am addressing Page 8 of the Geofx 2nd run build document.
According to what I see... it is OK to have the FWB rectifier installed AND use a 48VDC wall wart. Is this correct? Or, does the FWB need to be removed and jumpered when using the wall wart?
Also, according to the wiring diagram on Page 8, it says that when using the DC wall wart, power wire AC/+DC2 is not used BUT... in the picture, that is the wire that they show connected and labeled as AC/+DC1 ???
Is this a typo on the doc? Can either of the power inputs to the PCB (+DC1 or +DC2) be used?
Thanks! ;D
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on October 15, 2014, 11:47:04 AM
According to what I see... it is OK to have the FWB rectifier installed AND use a 48VDC wall wart. Is this correct? Or, does the FWB need to be removed and jumpered when using the wall wart?
Also, according to the wiring diagram on Page 8, it says that when using the DC wall wart, power wire AC/+DC2 is not used BUT... in the picture, that is the wire that they show connected and labeled as AC/+DC1 ???
Is this a typo on the doc? Can either of the power inputs to the PCB (+DC1 or +DC2) be used?
Typo?? I'm sure there are typos in there. It's just FINDING them that's the problem! :icon_lol:
The full wave bridge has four diodes in it. Two of them are identical to the two diodes that were in the original, and make the positive side of the power supply. The two "bottom side" or negative diodes are optional in this circuit. They can be connected to circuit ground by the jumper. The two AC/+DC pads are identical, and interchangeable. They don't care - which is probably why I made that confusing. I really promise it wasn't deliberate... :icon_biggrin:
If you use a DC wall wart, connect the (-) to the circuit common pad, and the (+) to either one of the AC/DC pads. Doesn't matter which one. You can put in the FWB, which offers polarity protection, put in one diode for polarity protection, or just jumper in the FWB position, which is complicated. I'd advise you to put in the FWB. Do not use the jumper in this case.
It is also possible, but less desirable IMHO, to put in the FWB, put in the jumper, and connect your DC wall wart across the two different AC/DC pads, and connect nothing to the power common pad. This lets the FWB sort out the polarity and connect the right polarity of incoming DC power to the V+ and Common. FWBs work with DC too. But the incoming DC wall wart (-) now is one diode drop BELOW signal ground, which can lead to some interesting circuit malfunctions when used with other equipment if the wall wart (-) goes other places too.
So if you have a DC wall wart, use the FWB, do NOT use the jumper, and connect the wall wart (-) to power common, wall wart (+) to either AC/DC pad and ignore the other one.
And by now you are beginning to understand how I made the instructions confusing. :icon_lol:
Quote from: R.G. on October 15, 2014, 12:20:00 PM
So if you have a DC wall wart, use the FWB, do NOT use the jumper, and connect the wall wart (-) to power common, wall wart (+) to either AC/DC pad and ignore the other one.
I ended up connecting the DC jack exactly like your picture on Page 8 of the document (making the DC jack center POSITIVE of course to match the wall wart) and I did install the FWB so... it looks like all is good ;D
Thanks again RG!
Now, I need to get my CV pot fitted with the gear (ugh) and get that built up and then I can adjust trimmers and fire it up! (and then trim some more ::))
Ahhhhh.... so THAT'S where you've been hiding lately!!
And I thought that stirring up the poop over at FSB was taking up all your time. :D
Welcome home bro. :icon_cool:
Quote from: digi2t on October 15, 2014, 01:12:24 PM
Ahhhhh.... so THAT'S where you've been hiding lately!!
And I thought that stirring up the poop over at FSB was taking up all your time. :D
Welcome home bro. :icon_cool:
Ha! Nothing like getting insulted, defending yourself, and getting punished for it.... and by moderators! ::)
I have had my "forum issues" as of late but... refocus and get back to enjoying this fine hobby/distraction ;D
I'm building the Ludwig from an etched PCB, I had a few questions (so far)
1 the unmarked resistor to the left of RF33, do I leave that empty, or jumper?
2 I read RGs answer about this on the other page but I just wanted to clarify... The dc1/dc2 pads, do I just connect the power to either one of those, if so do I need to add any jumpers anywhere?
3 I bought a 48vdc for this, it's rated at 380mA, is that enough juice?
4 this pedal has 2 inputs right? What are they for?
Thanks for your help, I'll be sure to post up a build report when this monster is finished, although I'm probably more likely to post up further questions here first!
Quote1 the unmarked resistor to the left of RF33, do I leave that empty, or jumper?
This is for an optional 1M resistor. Later units came with it piggybacked to the existing resistor. Experiments on original units revealed that it helped tame some of the harsher high frequencies. You can leave it out for now, and test once you've got it running. DO NOT insert a jumper here.
Quote2 I read RGs answer about this on the other page but I just wanted to clarify... The dc1/dc2 pads, do I just connect the power to either one of those, if so do I need to add any jumpers anywhere?
Judging by your question 3, if you're planning on using a DC power supply, then you'll be using AC/+DC1 for the POSITIVE, and Pwr Com for the NEGATIVE.
Quote3 I bought a 48vdc for this, it's rated at 380mA, is that enough juice?
From the build doc;
48Vdc/0.125A wall adapter, Mouser P/N709-GS06U-8P1J, $13.65. Yup... you got enough power.
Quote4 this pedal has 2 inputs right? What are they for?
One Hi-Z, and one Lo-Z input.
Hi-Z, think Guitars, Basses, Instruments, etc.
Lo-Z, think Microphones, Pro Audio Equipment, etc.
Now, go forth, and yoyo-fy
Thanks Dino. I'll get on the case and get this baby completed. (I still have an unfinished infinitphase on the shelf uncompleted)
Quote from: hangingmonkey on November 11, 2014, 02:53:16 AM
Thanks Dino. I'll get on the case and get this baby completed. (I still have an unfinished infinitphase on the shelf uncompleted)
Funny you should mention the Infinitphase. I'm breadboarding a sample/hold circuit for mine right now. Mike from Prophesysound was nice enough to give me an outline of how the sample/hold, and stereo output are arranged, a while back. I'm planning on integrating both mods, starting with the sample/hold.
Just out of curiosity... is it "unfinished", or "uncompleted"? :icon_mrgreen:
Sample hold sounds interesting although i dont think ive seen any videos demonstrating the sound but im sure youll post up a vid once you get it working.
My infinitphase is mostly populated, the offboard wiring has made me put it on the shelf till there comes an opportunity during annual leave when i have a few days to work on it. Probably wont be till next year sometime unfortunately:(
I'm finishing up a couple of Phase IIs and I'm having a baffling problem. The oscillator works. The flipflop works when triggered manually (collectors flip from 0 to 13-14v). However, the flipflop does not respond to the oscillator. I've metered every component connecting them and within both sections, and the values are correct. I've audio probed the collectors of the flipflop transistors, and I can hear ticking on whichever one is off (the one that's on has collector at ground), but it just won't flip on its own. I thought maybe the oscillator was set up wrong and ticking high instead of low, but metering it shows it's ticking low as it should. What's the deal?
Background: I'm using the 6027 PUT in the oscillator with a 5.1k Ralt. The oscillator page of R.G.'s manual says to use Ralt=4.7k or 5.1k, but his schem shows it as 3.3k.
Just to be clear, I should also add that both builds have exactly the same problem.
I changed Ralt to 3.3k in one unit with no improvement.
I removed C3 and coupled the oscillator to the bases of the flipflop transistors (as in Boss bypass switching) rather than the collector bias network (as in the PII schem) using .01uf caps. Now I can hear the flipflop affecting the output, but it doesn't seem to be latching. The transistors go back to their previous state after the oscillator tick instead of remaining flipped until the next tick, so the filters tick instead of sweeping. If I turn the animation off, I can still work the flipflop manually and it latches. ???
I'll take a look at that.
Discrete flipflops were problematic without really careful design, I was told. They were the 'past generation' stuff when I was an engineerling with TIC.
It may need some tinkering, or some 'dirtying up' of the modern devices to work like the transistors in the original.
I'm seeing something else problematic now. The Animation mode is switched by grounding Q7, Q8, or neither (the "echo" transistors). The problem is that when one of those transistors is off, its collector is still affected by the voltage divider on the other transistor's collector. When you ground the base of one transistor, the collector of the other one swings the whole supply voltage instead of half, which causes the voltage divider on the first to still swing from half supply to full supply.
That means that the echo transistors only have the correct swing in the middle switch position. In the other positions, the active transistor has a double swing, while the inactive one still swings just as much as if it was active. It looks to me like the switch should ground the collectors rather than the bases. Has anyone using the 2nd run boards had problems with the Animation modes?
Quote from: Keppy on November 26, 2014, 10:16:35 PM
Has anyone using the 2nd run boards had problems with the Animation modes?
As far as I know Kep, you're the only one I've seen using the 6027 for the animation. I've done two builds with the 2646, and both worked fine. Hopefully this will get sorted out.
Quote from: digi2t on November 29, 2014, 09:10:53 PM
As far as I know Kep, you're the only one I've seen using the 6027 for the animation. I've done two builds with the 2646, and both worked fine. Hopefully this will get sorted out.
I thought Ry used a 6027 and he got his working. The problem in the post you quoted, though, wasn't with the oscillator, it's with Q7 & Q8. Have you noticed any issue using different settings on the Animation toggle?
I'll check it out tomorrow. I haven't played with in a while, so from memory, I don't think I have any issues with it, but I'll let you know.
So, if I understand correctly, you have LFO on both, but not on FFM, or Fuzz Repeats only. Dumb it down for me, just so I know what I'm listening for. :icon_rolleyes:
I never got my oscillator running...and wow, I don't remember what I used, that was a couple years ago. I may have given up and bought an original that I stumbled across and put the DIY one aside. That said, I've been meaning to dust my build off and try to troubleshoot it, now I'm inspired!
Quote from: Ry on November 29, 2014, 11:14:41 PM
I never got my oscillator running...and wow, I don't remember what I used, that was a couple years ago. I may have given up and bought an original that I stumbled across and put the DIY one aside. That said, I've been meaning to dust my build off and try to troubleshoot it, now I'm inspired!
Crap. That might mean the PUT version doesn't work (I found your old post where you said what you used). I better order some UJTs. Mine definitely oscillates, but apparently the output is different enough that it won't trigger the flipflop.
Quote from: digi2t on November 29, 2014, 10:57:33 PM
So, if I understand correctly, you have LFO on both, but not on FFM, or Fuzz Repeats only. Dumb it down for me, just so I know what I'm listening for. :icon_rolleyes:
Forget the LFO. That, as far as I can tell, is a separate problem. While I was poking at it I found what appears to me to be a mistake in the implementation of Q7 & Q8. Those transistors are supposed to copy the output of the flipflop, but in my builds they don't, and looking at the schematic I believe the error is in the implementation, not in my builds. Here are the tests:
Auditory test:
Animation on, Intens. FFM and Intens. Fuzz Rpt. all the way up, rocker centered, Counter mode. Start with the Animation toggle set to Both.
1) Do you hear both the Fuzz Repeat and the automatic filter sweeps?
2) When you move the toggle to Fuzz Rpt. does the filter sweep stop? Do the Fuzz Repeats just continue, or do they get more intense?
3) When you move the toggle to FFM, do the Fuzz Repeats stop? Does the filter sweep change at all from the center toggle position?
Meter test:Animation on, rate all the way down, R4 (internal speed trimmer) all the way down.
1) Measure the voltage on Q7 collector with the toggle switch in all three positions
2) Repeat for Q8
I'm pretty sure the meter test will reveal different voltages than what's in the build doc (as mine does when triggered manually), but it remains to be seen if that will audibly affect the different modes. I can't tell on mine until I get the other problem sorted out. Thanks Dino.
Got a busy day today, but I'll have time to check it out tonight.
Sit tight bro... I'll run through your requests, and report back.
Keppy, your builds are doing exactly what mine was (as I recall). While this sounds frustrating to you, I'm really excited that you may have uncovered why mine isn't working. I put this thing aside after spending close to a month debugging it almost exactly two years ago...I would love to get my clone running!
I got a few minutes to look at this. The "echo" transistors might be a problem. This can be cured by putting a 17V zener from the junction of R64/R39/R40 to ground. That prevents the voltage from ever going over the design voltage of about half of the +35V supply, so it would correct Keppy's supposition about the size of the collector swings on Q7/Q8. I still need to think about why the original didn't work right, but this hack would fix the problem.
I'll go look at the triggering from the PUT. It would be unusual that the AC coupled output spike of the PUT would not trigger the flipflop through the cap that couples it, but hey, I've made a career out of being wrong and then correcting it. :icon_lol:
OK, 17V zener cures the funny problem with the animation switch. I did not think completely through how Q7 and Q8 work.
On the triggering from a PUT:
The flipflop triggers when some signal source puts a negative-going spike on the combined collector supplies at the junction of the two collector resistors and the resistor to +35V. What is critical here is that the trigger signal have enough oompf to make the transistors flip state by dragging both collectors down.
PUTs and UJTs differ a little in exactly how they work, but for almost all applications, they're equivalent. I think that the values of R7 and the 0.01uF cap that couples the signal into the joined collectors may also need tinkering.
Keppy, if you'll decrease R7 from 220R to something smaller, maybe 100R, and maybe increase the cap from 0.01 to 0.022, things may start working. If you're almost there, the oscillator may half-time, only flipping every two oscillator strokes.
Oh, yeah - a couple of sharp eyes noticed that I transposed the two inputs in the wiring diagram. I'll go update the docos. Ideally, if someone can verify the fixes here, I'll roll all that into one update.
Quote from: digi2t on November 30, 2014, 08:53:26 AM
Got a busy day today, but I'll have time to check it out tonight.
Sit tight bro... I'll run through your requests, and report back.
Dino is on the case! ;)
I'm gonna sit back and see what you find out. Gotta work today so I wouldn't be able to get to it until tomorrow evening anyways. ::)
Thanks for the help everyone! It means a lot that everyone is still so quick to help with this.
Quote from: R.G. on November 30, 2014, 11:18:48 AM
The "echo" transistors might be a problem. This can be cured by putting a 17V zener from the junction of R64/R39/R40 to ground.
That's a good idea, simpler than what I came up with. Since Q3/Q4 only output about 13.5v, should I use a 12V zener instead, or maybe two 6.8V in series?
Quote from: R.G. on November 30, 2014, 11:52:16 AM
Keppy, if you'll decrease R7 from 220R to something smaller, maybe 100R, and maybe increase the cap from 0.01 to 0.022, things may start working. If you're almost there, the oscillator may half-time, only flipping every two oscillator strokes.
I'll try it out. I'm reluctant to do too much desoldering for fear of damaging the pads (etched boards), but I'll poke a resistor and cap in parallel with what's there and see if it helps.
Quote from: Ry on November 30, 2014, 10:02:56 AM
Keppy, your builds are doing exactly what mine was (as I recall). While this sounds frustrating to you, I'm really excited that you may have uncovered why mine isn't working. I put this thing aside after spending close to a month debugging it almost exactly two years ago...I would love to get my clone running!
We'll get it running. :)
Quote from: Keppy on November 30, 2014, 03:26:45 PM
Quote from: R.G. on November 30, 2014, 11:18:48 AM
The "echo" transistors might be a problem. This can be cured by putting a 17V zener from the junction of R64/R39/R40 to ground.
That's a good idea, simpler than what I came up with. Since Q3/Q4 only output about 13.5v, should I use a 12V zener instead, or maybe two 6.8V in series?
Whatever works. I was just guessing about the voltage and based the "half of 35V" on the fact that there's one common 4.7K and one 4.7K collector resistor on each flipflop transistor. If the signal's 13.5, stick in a 13.5V (kind of... :icon_biggrin:) zener. I suspect the actual value isn't all that critical.
As a side note, the base-emitter of most silicon NPNs is about 6-7V, so two of them in series might be about right if you didn't have a 13-15V zener laying around. Season to taste. :icon_biggrin:
Quote
Quote from: R.G. on November 30, 2014, 11:52:16 AM
Keppy, if you'll decrease R7 from 220R to something smaller, maybe 100R, and maybe increase the cap from 0.01 to 0.022, things may start working. If you're almost there, the oscillator may half-time, only flipping every two oscillator strokes.
I'll try it out. I'm reluctant to do too much desoldering for fear of damaging the pads (etched boards), but I'll poke a resistor and cap in parallel with what's there and see if it helps.
Good point. Solder a 220 on top of that existing one, and/or try paralleling another cap on the coupling cap.
Sorry for the all caps. Not yelling, just want to contrast the answers from the questions.
Auditory test:
Animation on, Intens. FFM and Intens. Fuzz Rpt. all the way up, rocker centered, Counter mode. Start with the Animation toggle set to Both.
1) Do you hear both the Fuzz Repeat and the automatic filter sweeps?
YES
2) When you move the toggle to Fuzz Rpt. does the filter sweep stop? Do the Fuzz Repeats just continue, or do they get more intense?
FUZZ REPEATS ARE MORE INTENSE, AND FILTER SWEEPS ARE MUCH LESS. FUZZ REPEAT INTENSITY IS ALSO SOMEWHAT DEPENDANT ON PEDAL POSITION, AND MANIPULATING THE FFM INTENSITY KNOB MAKES ONLY A TINY DIFFERENCE IN THE OVERALL SOUND.
3) When you move the toggle to FFM, do the Fuzz Repeats stop? Does the filter sweep change at all from the center toggle position?
FUZZ REPEATS ARE MUCH LESS, AND THE FILTER SWEEP IS MUCH GREATER. FILTER SWEEP INTENSITY IS SOMEWHAT DEPENDANT ON PEDAL POSITION, AND MANIPULATING THE FUZZ REPEATS KNOBS DOES NOTHING.
Meter test:
Animation on, rate all the way down, R4 (internal speed trimmer) all the way down.
I'VE USED THE MIN/MAX SETTING ON MY DMM, THE READINGS ARE AS SUCH. I'VE ROUNDED THE READINGS.
1) Measure the voltage on Q7 collector with the toggle switch in all three positions
FUZZ RPTS. = 21V/29V
BOTH = 0V/12V
FFM = 0V/23V
2) Repeat for Q8
FUZZ RPTS. = 0V/32V
BOTH = 0V/17V
FFM = 18V/28V
Hope this helps.
I believe that verifies the supposition that Keppy brought up about Q7 and Q8, and that the simulation run this morning thought was right.
Do you have anything that could be a 12V to 18V zener? I think that would fix it back to the original content, and keep the cheap center-off switch.
Fairchild 1N5247
17V Zener 0.5W
Would a 0.5W Zener be OK? Or... would the 1W be better?
EDIT: Looks like 1W is only available as 16V or 18V :-\
Hmmm... lessee here.
35V minus 17V is 18V. That's across a 4.7K resistor, so the current is
I = 18/4700 = 0.0038A, 3.8ma. The power in the resistor is 18 x 0.0038 = 68.9mW, call it 70mW.
The power in the zener is 17V times at most that same current (if both Q7 and Q8 are off, which only happens for microseconds) so it's go nearly the same power, about 70mW. I'd say half watt is fine, even overkill, except that smaller power zeners are probably more expensive.
Note that using a zener between 12V and 18V doesn't change this all that much.
I have plenty of 12v and 6.8v zeners. I can give this a try later.
Quote from: R.G. on November 30, 2014, 11:18:48 AM
This can be cured by putting a 17V zener from the junction of R64/R39/R40 to ground. That prevents the voltage from ever going over the design voltage of about half of the +35V supply, so it would correct Keppy's supposition about the size of the collector swings on Q7/Q8.
So... just need to find a convenient GND location and... if there is one nearby... tack in the zener and all should be OK.... RIGHT? :-\
Just out of curiousity...
Would the zener be required only for the 6027, or for the 2646 as well? Do the readings I supplied show proper operation? I mean, to my ears, everything sounds OK.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on November 30, 2014, 08:27:23 PM
So... just need to find a convenient GND location and... if there is one nearby... tack in the zener and all should be OK.... RIGHT? :-\
Yes. I just verified this with a 12v zener. I tacked it between the bottom of R64 and the top of R29.
Quote from: digi2t on November 30, 2014, 09:12:01 PM
Just out of curiousity...
Would the zener be required only for the 6027, or for the 2646 as well? Do the readings I supplied show proper operation? I mean, to my ears, everything sounds OK.
Both. This affects neither the oscillator or the flipflop, just the "echo" transistors Q7 & Q8, which transfer the triggers of the flipflop to the FFM and Fuzz Repeat circuits. Your readings show incorrect operation, electrically if not audibly. Here are the correct readings:
Q7:
FUZZ RPTS. = 13.5V/13.5V
BOTH = 0V/13.5V
FFM = 0V/13.5VQ8:
FUZZ RPTS. = 0V/13.5V
BOTH = 0V/13.5V
FFM = 13.5V/13.5VAll those 13.5V readings are probably okay anywhere 12-17V. The reason for these "ideal" voltages is Q7 & Q8 are supposed to read the same as Q3 & Q4 (0V/13.5V at all times), but with the ability for the toggle to disable one or the other completely. If yours sounds fine, no worries, but it's just one tack-on diode, and I know you're the curious type.... ;)
I tried paralleling the cap and resistor with no success. I have a couple UJTs on order, so I'm confident I'll get these working even if we don't work out the PUT issue. It would still be nice to work it out, though. I verified that the flipflop can trigger the filters in my build, but the oscillator still won't trigger the flipflop.
I'll have to dig through my zener drawer and see what I have, I'm sure I have something that will work. This is exciting, I'll have to carve out some time to dig into this!
Guess I'm digging through the zeners tomorrow as well. :icon_lol:
Quote from: Keppy on November 30, 2014, 09:43:49 PM
I tried paralleling the cap and resistor with no success.
I forgot to mention that with the resistor paralleled, the tick did get louder, but still did not suffice as a trigger.
So I am assuming that the zener solved the switching issue with Q7/Q8 ???
If it did... does it matter what threshold zener is used? (i.e. 12V, 16V, 17V, etc.)
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on November 30, 2014, 10:39:51 PM
So I am assuming that the zener solved the switching issue with Q7/Q8 ???
It would appear so.
QuoteIf it did... does it matter what threshold zener is used? (i.e. 12V, 16V, 17V, etc.)
I'd say as close to 13.5V as you can get, because that's what the flipflop puts out. No more than 17V (1/2 supply voltage) or the collector on the grounded-out transistor will still swing a little.
Dang... now it's got me thinking, "Were the original units like this too?". I can't remember. I just remember A/B'ing the clone with them, and getting the same sonic results. Or maybe it's been lost to the fog of time. :icon_rolleyes:
I wonder if Jimi's still got his?
Quote from: Keppy on November 30, 2014, 11:49:14 PM
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on November 30, 2014, 10:39:51 PM
So I am assuming that the zener solved the switching issue with Q7/Q8 ???
It would appear so.
QuoteIf it did... does it matter what threshold zener is used? (i.e. 12V, 16V, 17V, etc.)
I'd say as close to 13.5V as you can get, because that's what the flipflop puts out. No more than 17V (1/2 supply voltage) or the collector on the grounded-out transistor will still swing a little.
Correct, all counts.
Going back through this I remember some of the issues. Q7 and Q8 were not in the original, and the switch controlling them was a center-both switch. Those switches are rare, and I inserted Q7/Q8 so a center-off switch could be used. Works, but introduces the problem with the odd changes in voltage to the circuits it drives.
A quick look at the second-run boards shows that a good place to put the zener is with its cathode to the south end of R64 and its anode to the north end of R29. This is between the Fuzz Mix and Fuzz Repeats pots, next to the Repeats pot. Here's a quick look at where to put it on the top/component side:
(http://i.imgur.com/iE3IzoM.gif)
It's also easy to hit those same pads from the bottom/solder side.
One thing that made this a little abstract is that the signals are AC coupled from the collectors of Q7 and Q8 and so the raw DC levels were removed, leaving only the AC portions, which were square waves, albeit of the wrong sizes.
Quote from: R.G. on December 01, 2014, 10:33:22 AM
One thing that made this a little abstract is that the signals are AC coupled from the collectors of Q7 and Q8 and so the raw DC levels were removed, leaving only the AC portions, which were square waves, albeit of the wrong sizes.
Yeah. What concerned me most was that the transistor that was "off" was still swinging half the supply, so you couldn't really turn either animation function off, although according to Dino this isn't all that noticeable. I guess at some point the last layer of weirdness just kind of blends in. :D
OK, a 15v zener is a definite improvement where switching is concerned. I've been going over videos of my original units, and some bleed through was normal. That's why I considered it normal on my clone as well. As Kep says, part of the weirdness factor. Nope, I've looked at it again, and the original is much, much cleaner. I initially looked at the wrong part of the video, and then it also hit me... the switching on the original was purely mechanical.
Anywho, I've soldered in a 15v zener, and the switching is much cleaner now. No fuzz repeats in filter animation mode, and no filter animation in fuzz repeats mode. Both... well... is both.
I know this is supposed to be "a good thing", but it's almost clinical now. The switching is now as clean as the original. I neglected to take voltage readings after the fact though. I'll do that tonight.
Just kidding... it's a keeper. Add it to the doc R.G.
P.S. In case I never mentioned this before; if any of you are wondering what the difference is between the "Fuzz", and "Voice Fuzz" settings, this is what I've found. When using the animation in "Both" mode, putting the unit in "Fuzz" mode, the fuzz knob acts as a gain control for the fuzz. At 0, you get a real squarewave repeat, with nothing between the beats. At 10, the fuzz fills in the spaces between the repeats.
In "Voice Fuzz" mode, the Fuzz knob acts like a balance control between the filter animation, and the fuzz repeats. With the knob at noon, you get a mix of both. One end is only fuzz repeats, and the other is only filter animation.
Total coolness! :icon_cool:
So I built mine from the first layout, and it looks like the connections on R64 in it are different from the second run that RG posted about. Am I missing something, or is R64 not connected the same way in the first run?
I've amended my previous post. Unfortunately, I must have taken a hit of acid just before writing it... or it's simply age ravaging my mind. :icon_lol: Sorry guys.
Quote from: Ry on December 01, 2014, 11:05:23 PM
So I built mine from the first layout, and it looks like the connections on R64 in it are different from the second run that RG posted about. Am I missing something, or is R64 not connected the same way in the first run?
Looks to me like the traces are a bit different, but R64 is still in the same place, doing the same job. You should be able to use R.G.'s illustration for the zener placement on either version board.
On the last batch of boards, I think the traces got shifted around a bit so as the Fast/Slow indicator light switching could be switched around, and there was some added power options added to this board as well.
Digi's right - I had to mess with some other stuff and squash things into slightly different places to accommodate the cleanup changes, but the R64 and ground connections are close enough to work the same.
Yell if there's a problem.
Note that you can tack-solder the zener on either the top of the board where the other parts are, or on the bottom where the copper traces are. That last might be more convenient as you might not have to remove the controls and switches from the enclosure. If you do that, you might want to use a photo/graphics program to flip the illustration over to see how the copper would look from the bottom so you get the correct pads.
I spent a good hour or so comparing the version 1 and 2 boards for this, and I don't quite see that the R64 connection is the same. Are you saying that I should be able to tack the zener onto the R64/C29/Q17 signal pad on the Ver 1 board? Sorry to sound dense about this...
Quote from: Ry on December 06, 2014, 09:31:27 PM
I spent a good hour or so comparing the version 1 and 2 boards for this, and I don't quite see that the R64 connection is the same. Are you saying that I should be able to tack the zener onto the R64/C29/Q17 signal pad on the Ver 1 board? Sorry to sound dense about this...
I think you're looking at the wrong board. We're not talking about the smaller filter board (I think you're looking at R
F64/C
F29/Q
F17). We're talking about the power board (the larger board). Both versions have R64, and R29 in the same place, so this illustration that R.G. posted before will work (notice that this is the board with the pots on it).
(http://i.imgur.com/iE3IzoM.gif)
I've retested the voltages on Q7/Q8 collectors with a 15v zener, and as Kep spec'd, this is what I get now (values rounded);
Q8
- Fuzz Rpt. = 0v/15v
- Both = 0v/15v
- FFM = 15v
Q7
- Fuzz Rpt. = 15v
- Both = 0v/13v
- FFM = 0v/13v
Hmmm, I am looking at the larger board, and it's significantly different from that diagram. Unfortunately, I don't see a working link on GEO to the version 1 build file that I'm using. I'll dig a bit more, I must be missing something.
Quote from: Ry on December 06, 2014, 10:14:44 PM
Hmmm, I am looking at the larger board, and it's significantly different from that diagram. Unfortunately, I don't see a working link on GEO to the version 1 build file that I'm using. I'll dig a bit more, I must be missing something.
Did you get one of the manufactured Version 1's, or did you etch your own?
I still have the source files for the first version.
I etched my own from the very first build file.
Crap... hadn't thought about that. Should look something like this, I've drawn in he zener.
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc196/digi2t/Ludwig%20Phase%202/version1zener_zps56d4f1a4.jpg) (http://s214.photobucket.com/user/digi2t/media/Ludwig%20Phase%202/version1zener_zps56d4f1a4.jpg.html)
Awesome, thank you ;D
I'll tack on the zener as soon as I get my Mouser order (I didn't have any appropriate values in my stash).
Ry, that board doesn't appear to have Q7/Q8, which means you don't need that zener. Your board appears to predate the mod that necessitates it.
Quote from: Keppy on December 06, 2014, 11:47:35 PM
Ry, that board doesn't appear to have Q7/Q8, which means you don't need that zener. Your board appears to predate the mode that necessitates it.
Isn't that what q3 qnd q4 are doing?
Q3/Q4 are the flipflop. Q7/Q8 are added-on transistors that allow one side of the flipflop output or the other to be turned off using only one switch pole. See pg. 28 of the current build doc.
It looks like that is the version of the board that switched the animation using a DPDT on/off/on switch (or 4PDT on/off/on to include LED).
EDIT: The line above should read DPDT/4PDT on/ON/on.
I just installed a 2N2646 in place of the 2N6027 and removed Ralt. The animation is working now, so it appears that was the problem. Ry, did you order a UJT? Smallbear carries them if you need one. I believe someone found it someplace else as well back in the earlier days of the project.
Quote from: Keppy on December 07, 2014, 12:19:05 AM
Q3/Q4 are the flipflop. Q7/Q8 are added-on transistors that allow one side of the flipflop output or the other to be turned off using only one switch pole. See pg. 28 of the current build doc.
It looks like that is the version of the board that switched the animation using a DPDT on/off/on switch (or 4PDT on/off/on to include LED).
Yep, that's it. It sidestepped the introduced Q7/Q8 issue but needed the hard-to-find switch.
Quote from: Keppy on December 07, 2014, 01:18:36 AM
I just installed a 2N2646 in place of the 2N6027 and removed Ralt. The animation is working now, so it appears that was the problem. Ry, did you order a UJT? Smallbear carries them if you need one. I believe someone found it someplace else as well back in the earlier days of the project.
I'll do some more digging to get the PUT to work. The 2N2646 is quite hard to find. I've actually had the 6027 working on a breadboard in the "alt" circuit, although not in a Ludwig. There appears to be some fancier signal throughput to the flipflop needed.
My apologies for the mis-call then. :icon_redface:
At first glance, it looked like the old q3/q4 were the new q7/q8. I should have looked at it a little harder.
Thanks for digging in, guys. I'll get mine on the bench in a couple hours, I need to wrap my head around the build again.
Quote from: R.G. on December 07, 2014, 07:48:02 AM
I'll do some more digging to get the PUT to work. The 2N2646 is quite hard to find. I've actually had the 6027 working on a breadboard in the "alt" circuit, although not in a Ludwig. There appears to be some fancier signal throughput to the flipflop needed.
Yeah, the 6027 oscillator was ticking just fine. I don't know why it wouldn't work as a trigger. Not a big enough voltage spike or not a sharp enough edge on the transient, I guess. Then again, when I triggered the flipflop manually, brushing a screwdriver against the trigger point didn't always get it to flip. I needed to plant it firmly on the trigger point, so maybe the voltage spike needs to be a smidge
longer. One of us needs to breadboard it along with the flipflop and get it working. I have all the necessary parts, but I don't really know how PUTs work, and it'll be a little while before I can get to it, so if anyone else wants to jump in just say the word. Otherwise I'll try and get to it when I can.
Possibilities from some PUT oscillators I just looked up:
1) Ralt from gate to ground instead of gate to cathode:
(http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03505.png)
2) Ground the cathode by jumpering R7:
(http://mysite.du.edu/~etuttle/electron/circ366.gif)
3) Keep the current configuration but adjust values. This graphic supports the configuration of the circuit as it is now, but notice R2, the extra resistance on the Gate (R1 in the graphic is Ralt in the build doc).
(http://sub.allaboutcircuits.com/images/03509.png)
All of those are all easy enough to wire up on my build. I'll start playing with them as soon as I can, it would be easy enough to wire up a trimpot for Ralt and tack it to ground.
I dug the project out of a drawer and hooked it up. It sounds far better than my original, actually. The only thing missing is the animation, and the trimmers need to be readjusted just a little bit.
Quote from: Keppy on December 07, 2014, 07:18:52 PM
One of us needs to breadboard it along with the flipflop and get it working. I have all the necessary parts, but I don't really know how PUTs work, and it'll be a little while before I can get to it, so if anyone else wants to jump in just say the word. Otherwise I'll try and get to it when I can.
I'm darn near destitute on bench time, but I'll pour it into a simulator when I can.
PUTs are an odd variant of SCR where the voltage on the gate is held fixed, and when the voltage on the anode gets bigger than the gate voltage by X amount, the "SCR" triggers and dumps the cap through the device.
One more revision: The toggles for the fuzz mode and animation mode appear to be backwards, with Voice Fuzz and Fuzz Rpt. at the top toggle positions rather than the bottom. The labels should be reversed.**
**For original mojo reverse the toggles, not the labels.
Quote from: Keppy on December 09, 2014, 03:30:19 AM
One more revision: The toggles for the fuzz mode and animation mode appear to be backwards, with Voice Fuzz and Fuzz Rpt. at the top toggle positions rather than the bottom. The labels should be reversed.**
**For original mojo reverse the toggles, not the labels.
WHAT!!?? :o :icon_eek: :icon_cry:
Quote from: Keppy on December 09, 2014, 03:30:19 AM
One more revision: The toggles for the fuzz mode and animation mode appear to be backwards, with Voice Fuzz and Fuzz Rpt. at the top toggle positions rather than the bottom. The labels should be reversed.**
**For original mojo reverse the toggles, not the labels.
Hmmm... I thought I did that on the PCB in the change from V1 to V2. Did I muck that up?
Quote from: R.G. on December 09, 2014, 01:58:04 PM
Quote from: Keppy on December 09, 2014, 03:30:19 AM
One more revision: The toggles for the fuzz mode and animation mode appear to be backwards, with Voice Fuzz and Fuzz Rpt. at the top toggle positions rather than the bottom. The labels should be reversed.**
**For original mojo reverse the toggles, not the labels.
Hmmm... I thought I did that on the PCB in the change from V1 to V2. Did I muck that up?
I remember Dino asked you to flip around the Fast/Slow switch, so that might be why that one doesn't match the other two. I've checked it over several times to be sure that it's inconsistent and not just a case of me interpreting it wrong. Like, I could be reading it backwards from the way you intended, but then the Fast/Slow switch is the one that's wrong instead of the other two.
OK, I'll go dig through the source files and find out how I mucked it. :icon_biggrin:
Maybe by V3 I can get this thing right! :icon_lol:
I've been digging back into this monster, and there's something that I never addressed way back when.
In the original units, there were 10 transistors that were color coded. 4 green, 4 yellow, one red, and one blue. These were TO-92 packages, whist all the rest were TO-105's. The transistors invloved are;
Green (NPN);
Q8, Q12, Q15, Q19
Yellow (PNP);
Q9, Q11, Q16, Q18
Red;
Q6
Blue;
Q5
The first eight are all found in the filter section, and the last two are part of the fuzz section. I'm wondering though, could it be that these transistors were matched, hence the color coding?
Unfortunately, I don't have either of my original units anymore to test, but if I get really ambitious, I might even breadboard the theory one day. Would running a sim be able to show whether gain matching would play a role here?
Within the same type number, color codes were used for sorting. Usually that was for sorting into a few buckets of hfe. Back in the 60s and 70s, silicon fabrication was crude enough that the same process line turned out wafers that had *wide* variations. You might get one wafer with mostly hfe=50 devices, the next one through would have mostly hfe200, the next 150, and so on. The Japanese practice was to label them all the same (e.g. 2SC1815) but to color code them into black/orange/yellow/green/pomegranite/puce... bins of similar hfes. The US practice was to make several part numbers (e.g. 2N4401, 2N4403...) and hfe-test, dropping them into the right part number bin for marking. I'm sure there were other schemes as well.
If you bought plain vanilla parts from Motorola or Delco (!), you got generally hfes with a 3-1 variation inside a part number. It was possible, and many manufacturers availed themselves of this, to get the semiconductor house to more finely test the parts and provide them to you as a special or house-numbered part that was selected to your own particular needs. Sometimes these were actually numbered 80-5043-23 or something equally cryptic, and sometimes just color dotted. Or just sent as Your Special Delivery Don't Mix These Up.
So yes, there was almost certainly some kind of sorting. The problem is that we don't know and probably can't find out what they sorted FOR. We don't know if they sorted for hfe, or Vbe variance, or frequency response, or any of many other characteristics. We can guess that the transistors involved in those very differential-amplifier looking things in the filters might have needed to be matched at least for each pair, perhaps for a quad or a sextet.
We also don't know which of the pairs were actually needed matched, or for how close the selection needed to be.
I worried about this when I was working over the schematics and layout, and decided that they'd either work or not with same-type-number devices. If they didn't, I'd hear about it and could concoct some kind of matching jig, as those setups were common back in the bad old days when circuits were not well designed to ignore or minimize the effect of transistor parameter variation. I was very pleased when the units actually worked with transistors out of the bags.
That tells me that the matching can't be all that critical, and that it is likely that transistors of the same type number ordered in one batch from the same supplier will probably work fine by default. Today's semiconductor lines make BIG wafers, with large numbers of transistors cut from one wafer, so that hundreds or thousands of devices are likely to be packaged as a part number at once, and they'll all be from the same wafer and hence very similar. That was not always true. And it's possible to get unlucky and get scrapings from the bottom of the parts bin that are from several different wafers and not all that similar.
It is tough to tinker with mismatched devices in a simulator. This is one of the pitfalls of simulators if you don't know about it. Simulators use transistor models that are **identical** for every device you put into the schematic unless you explicitly tell the sim to bend them a bit. Sometimes you have to hand tinker the individual device models, some simulators have a "tolerance" or "Monte Carlo" mode that assigns random variations for you on the theory that you'll make many runs and compare them.
If you want to mess with this on a breadboard, yell and I'll try to come up with some measurement setups where you can select for and against matched devices to test. Testing HFE is easy - the Fuzz Face transistor tester at GEO does that, and for silicon you can ignore the leakage test entirely, as silicon will have negligible leakage. Delta-Vbe isn't all that hard to test and I could come up with something.
IT WORKS! ;D
I gave up on getting the 6027 running and ordered a 2646 from Small Bear. Luckily, I had socketed the 6027, so I simply replaced the 2646 and snipped Ralt. The animation immediately fired up and works like a charm. It's really rough right now, rough and magical! I need to work with the trimmers a bit.
It sounds 100% better than the original that I have...those of you who had originals, did you notice the same thing? I need to crack my old one open and give it a tune up, it oscillates when the foot controller is pressed all the way down. Is there anything you guys want me to investigate while I have it taken apart?
Awesome! I'm glad you finally get the full experience. :D
I'm not aware of any lingering questions. I finished the last of my two builds tonight, and I have a list of minor project revisions for R.G., but I thought I'd wait until we get the PUT figured out.
Oh, and regarding transistor matching, the transistors in my original build are all socketed (since, you know, I had no idea if they would work :D). It seems like it hasn't mattered to this point, but if anyone has a specific test with a specific goal I can get it done. Sometime.
I don't remember all the things that Keppy posted, but here are the things I've done to mine apart from everyone else:
1. Increased the value of the High Z input cap to not cut as much bass when playing baritone or Bass VI guitar.
2. Replace the input bipolar with a MOSFET as RG suggested (I haven't gotten around to this one yet)
3. Added a volume control to the effected out
4. Added a mixer resistor from the stereo out to the main out so that when engaged works as a clean blend (when used with the effect volume control you can make nice more subtle spaceyness)
5. Used an expression pedal that has a wider travel that kind of goes past the filters (Jimi and I both discovered this independently)
Here's the list of needed documentation updates since my earlier posts disappeared:
1) Fix the swapped inputs on the wiring diagram.
2) Add a 13-15V zener from R64/39/40 (cathode) to ground (anode).
3) Switch the labeling on the Fuzz and Animation toggles, unless you want to flip the switch positions to match the original.
4) Jumper R7 when using the 6027 to ground the cathode.
5) First page of the build doc still mentions a 5k rocker pot; should be 10k
6) Pg. 17 refers to the bases of the UJT backwards, though the diagram for the PUT is correct.
7) The square set of holes for Q6 is incorrect.
Mods I dreamed up (but haven't tried):
1) Rocker Bypass: Use a DPDT in the rocker pedal to switch from using the rocker pot to a manual pot set to the sweet spot for "yoy." Swap the two non-grounded legs of the pots. An LED can be inserted in series from the "cold" lug of the pot to ground to keep the wiper from grounding out.
2) Speed mod: Increase C2 and/or the Rate pot to increase the range of available speeds.
Saved in the Ludwig design folder.
While preparing for some oscillator speed muckery, I noticed something about Q1 today. With the animation rate set to full speed, and R4 set to zero resistance, animation toggle set to fast, and animation turned off, the transistor has a 35v drop from collector to emitter with no external current limiting on the collector or emitter. I was thinking it was possible to fry Q1 with basic (albeit unlikely) user error, since the base is tied to +35v. Then I realized that the base current is extremely low (~30uA) and hfe tops out at 250 for a 2n5551, limiting collector current to <8mA. Um, right? Also, 8mA*35v makes 280mW dissipation, well below the 625mW power rating.
So Q1 is safe at all settings... right? ???
I'll go look. May take a couple of days. I'm kind of swamped with regular life right now.
hi guys,
yeah, i did come up with using an ev5 expression pedal with a little modification... i can swell PAST the filters into what sounds like straight fuzz.. very cool.
the quicklock universal volume pedal works right out of the box almost perfectly. personally, i don't like the crybaby with this, it doesn't "feel" right... but the extended sweep ya get with an EXP is kinda cool... heel back you can make it self oscillate at whatever pitch you end off playing, and toe down you can effectively bypass the filtering. very cool.
i'll try and shoot a little video of it, and the proper brand exp pedal.
i, too, prefer the clone to the original. i like the clone so much i didn't mind passing on cousin lewdvig to a new guy... and it sold for enough to pay off all my parts and pedal addictions.... and get a couple (ok, like, 14) more guitars.
i think where the pedal was concerned, it was supPOSEd to act like that... it makes sense, you can swell from fuzz guitar to synth sweeps. i love this thing!
big props to brother Dino, for building mine for me. thanks again bro!! i just can't see enough detail to do anything that complex anymore, tho having the proper bifocals now helps a lot.
be interesting to see this whole mess with all the mods and improvements implemented! :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: pinkjimiphoton on February 03, 2015, 12:36:19 PM
i just can't see enough detail to do anything that complex anymore, tho having the proper bifocals now helps a lot.
be interesting to see this whole mess with all the mods and improvements implemented! :icon_mrgreen:
So... I guess this means you are ready for the SMD Ludwig then Jimmy? :icon_eek:
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on February 03, 2015, 12:52:51 PM
So... I guess this means you are ready for the SMD Ludwig then Jimmy? :icon_eek:
Be very careful what you want...
:icon_lol:
lol.... naaah, greg, i'll start digging thru the scrap piles at the dump for components by the light of the silvery moon ;)
Quote from: R.G. on February 03, 2015, 01:28:40 PM
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on February 03, 2015, 12:52:51 PM
So... I guess this means you are ready for the SMD Ludwig then Jimmy? :icon_eek:
Be very careful what you want...
:icon_lol:
I would give it a go for sure! ;)
Building one that is.... I can't design for crap :-\
you just need a breadboard, and a willingness to let the magick smoke out, greg ;)
that said, built my very first "commercial" fuzz of my own design tonite. if *I* can do that, i think pretty much anyone with opposable thumbs can do it. ;)
Quote from: Keppy on December 17, 2014, 02:10:18 PM
Here's the list of needed documentation updates since my earlier posts disappeared:
1) Fix the swapped inputs on the wiring diagram.
2) Add a 13-15V zener from R64/39/40 (cathode) to ground (anode).
3) Switch the labeling on the Fuzz and Animation toggles, unless you want to flip the switch positions to match the original.
4) Jumper R7 when using the 6027 to ground the cathode.
5) First page of the build doc still mentions a 5k rocker pot; should be 10k
6) Pg. 17 refers to the bases of the UJT backwards, though the diagram for the PUT is correct.
7) The square set of holes for Q6 is incorrect.
Mods I dreamed up (but haven't tried):
1) Rocker Bypass: Use a DPDT in the rocker pedal to switch from using the rocker pot to a manual pot set to the sweet spot for "yoy." Swap the two non-grounded legs of the pots. An LED can be inserted in series from the "cold" lug of the pot to ground to keep the wiper from grounding out.
2) Speed mod: Increase C2 and/or the Rate pot to increase the range of available speeds.
Various updates:
I found one more bug in the documentation. CF1 is backwards on the layout. EDIT: I was looking at it wrong. Never mind.
Last year I only tried the 6027 with a flipflop on the breadboard, but I've now built a working Phase II with it, so it's completely verified.
I've also verified the rocker bypass mod mentioned above, with the LED indicator.
The speed mod didn't extend the range significantly. Also, slowing it down doesn't slow down the transitions, it just lengthens the time between them, so extremely slow settings don't sound great anyway.
Also, check my math, but RF28 looks to me like it's dissipating more than .25W. Two 6.8k .25W resistors in parallel would be well within their rating though.
Necro update!!
It looks like the 2nd run pdf on Geofx still has an error on the PnP transfer for Q6. If Q6 is mounted to the component side of the PCB then the Base leg is not connected to anything. The Collector and Emitter are fine but the Base is just floating.
This does not apply if you connect it via the trace side.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on October 15, 2017, 04:54:35 PM
Necro update!!
It looks like the 2nd run pdf on Geofx still has an error on the PnP transfer for Q6. If Q6 is mounted to the component side of the PCB then the Base leg is not connected to anything. The Collector and Emitter are fine but the Base is just floating.
This does not apply if you connect it via the trace side.
Email sent.
The second run of PCB's were double sided, with jumper traces on the component side. Unfortunately, the jumper for the B pads of Q6 is not displayed in the build doc, only the trace jumpers. You need to put one in. On the PCB's, the Q6B trace is there.
I still have to build it too... Got the PCB, parts and everything..
Thanks Dino... I fixed the Q6B issue and it seems to have done the trick.... almost :icon_rolleyes: Sent you an email on the subject but... will reference it here as well for others.
I finished the build and I am seeing good voltage from Q6, trimmers all set to the recommended starting points, and I tuned RF29 so that there was exactly 3.80VDC on the wiper.
I get great formants from all 3 channels BUT.. I am getting bad LFO bleedover when in Animate mode. This is after incorporating the 15V Zener fix.
Looking for recommendations.
Are you in Fuzz Repeat mode?
What is the level of the Fuzz Repeat pot?
The diode is there to prevent percussion repeat bleed into the audio when in FFM mode. In certain settings, the percussion repeats is part of the charm function.
Quote from: digi2t on October 16, 2017, 01:54:25 PM
Are you in Fuzz Repeat mode?
What is the level of the Fuzz Repeat pot?
The diode is there to prevent percussion repeat bleed into the audio when in FFM mode. In certain settings, the percussion repeats is part of the charm function.
This is with Fuzz off. The LFO bleed is only in the 3 formant channels when Animate is on. When in Parallel, Counter, or Vowel mode I get a nasty LFO bleed when the strings are muted.
One thing I just discovered (going through the build in my head) is that I installed both the resistor AND the trimmer for RF26 :icon_rolleyes: I am gonna have to cut out the actual resistor and try tweaking with the trimmer.
Is there any way to cut down/out the LFO bleed in the formants?
In FFM mode, you should not be getting percussive repeats (tock, tock, tock). Especially if the Fuzz Repeats pot is at zero.
RF26 is either trimmer or resistor. If memory serves me, if using the trimmer then you place a jumper across where the resistor goes DO NOT INSTALL ANYTHING WHERE THE RESISTOR GOES. RF26 is a simple input control for how much signal hits the filters. With hot pups or input signals, it helps cut down on filter distortion.
Unrelated; RF29, 3.80v is a point that I've found gives the best all around performance in mostof the units that have crossed my bench. You can play with it, between 3.70v, and 3.90v, while sweeping the treadle through the range, and in different FFM modes (parallel, counter, vowel). You'll notice that the frequency range will change quite a bit with even a 0.05v change. Since there will always be tolerances in all the components (and there are LOTS of components in here), you're unit might sound even better at a slightly different voltage setting. Try it, and see.
Quote from: digi2t on October 16, 2017, 02:24:04 PM
In FFM mode, you should not be getting percussive repeats (tock, tock, tock). Especially if the Fuzz Repeats pot is at zero.
RF26 is either trimmer or resistor. If memory serves me, if using the trimmer then you place a jumper across where the resistor goes. RF26 is a simple input control for how much signal hits the filters. With hot pups or input signals, it helps cut down on filter distortion.
Unrelated; RF29, 3.80v is a point that I've found gives the best all around performance in mostof the units that have crossed my bench. You can play with it, between 3.70v, and 3.90v, while sweeping the treadle through the range, and in different FFM modes (parallel, counter, vowel). You'll notice that the frequency range will change quite a bit with even a 0.05v change. Since there will always be tolerances in all the components (and there are LOTS of components in here), you're unit might sound even better at a slightly different voltage setting. Try it, and see.
You do NOT want to short out the 1/4W resistor slot for RF26! It is an either/or scenario. Shorting it will result in FULL signal going to the filter board all the time.
I will need to cut out the 1/4W resistor, leave that spot open, and use the trimmer to dial in the proper audio level to the filters.
As for the RF29 setting.... as I stated before, I have it set to 3.80VDC dead on and I love the sound of the 3 formants (Parallel, Counter, and Vowel) I just want to get rid of the LFO bleedover.
I'm gonna send you an email for further guidance. Keep a lookout ;)
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on October 16, 2017, 02:31:39 PM
Quote from: digi2t on October 16, 2017, 02:24:04 PM
In FFM mode, you should not be getting percussive repeats (tock, tock, tock). Especially if the Fuzz Repeats pot is at zero.
RF26 is either trimmer or resistor. If memory serves me, if using the trimmer then you place a jumper across where the resistor goes. RF26 is a simple input control for how much signal hits the filters. With hot pups or input signals, it helps cut down on filter distortion.
Unrelated; RF29, 3.80v is a point that I've found gives the best all around performance in mostof the units that have crossed my bench. You can play with it, between 3.70v, and 3.90v, while sweeping the treadle through the range, and in different FFM modes (parallel, counter, vowel). You'll notice that the frequency range will change quite a bit with even a 0.05v change. Since there will always be tolerances in all the components (and there are LOTS of components in here), you're unit might sound even better at a slightly different voltage setting. Try it, and see.
You do NOT want to short out the 1/4W resistor slot for RF26! It is an either/or scenario. Shorting it will result in FULL signal going to the filter board all the time.
I will need to cut out the 1/4W resistor, leave that spot open, and use the trimmer to dial in the proper audio level to the filters.
As for the RF29 setting.... as I stated before, I have it set to 3.80VDC dead on and I love the sound of the 3 formants (Parallel, Counter, and Vowel) I just want to get rid of the LFO bleedover.
I'm gonna send you an email for further guidance. Keep a lookout ;)
Absolutely correct! You beat me to the correction rewrite. :icon_sad:
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on October 16, 2017, 08:35:47 AM
I get great formants from all 3 channels BUT.. I am getting bad LFO bleedover when in Animate mode.
Just to be clear, you're talking about popping sounds, right? There's a whole host of things the LFO can cause in Animate mode:
- Filter sweeps (the intended effect, will have all the usual hissy-ness of sweeping filters when you're not actively playing)
- Filter squeals (only at the extremes of the sweep, need to be tuned out with all the trimpots)
- Fuzz repeats (monotonous ticking sounds, but kinda intentional-sounding, should go away when switched off)
- Actual LFO bleed (LOUD ticking noise, definitely not used for music ever)
The first two are normal in a build (at least until it's tuned up). The third is normal, but should be selectable. Does the sound you're experiencing sound like fuzz repeats, only they won't switch off (even with the fuzz off)? Or does it sound like straight-up, jumping-several-volts-at-once LFO tick? Or something else?
I'm guessing it's one of the last two since you've been talking to Dino and that seems to be what he's assuming, but it's unclear from your actual posts, so can you clarify?
Assuming that's what it is, can you verify that Q8 base is grounded (via continuity, not 0V) when fuzz repeats are switched off? That would rule out bleed along the intended Fuzz Repeat path.
Basic question: Have you already poked at the physical wiring? This LFO has a huge spike, and wiring capacitance may be enough to cause bleed if the wires cross funny. Not that I've had it happen in this build, but there are an awful lot of ways those wires might bump together.
Quote from: Keppy on October 17, 2017, 02:23:39 AM
Just to be clear, you're talking about popping sounds, right? There's a whole host of things the LFO can cause in Animate mode:
- Filter sweeps (the intended effect, will have all the usual hissy-ness of sweeping filters when you're not actively playing)
- Filter squeals (only at the extremes of the sweep, need to be tuned out with all the trimpots)
- Fuzz repeats (monotonous ticking sounds, but kinda intentional-sounding, should go away when switched off)
- Actual LFO bleed (LOUD ticking noise, definitely not used for music ever)
The first two are normal in a build (at least until it's tuned up). The third is normal, but should be selectable. Does the sound you're experiencing sound like fuzz repeats, only they won't switch off (even with the fuzz off)? Or does it sound like straight-up, jumping-several-volts-at-once LFO tick? Or something else?
I'm guessing it's one of the last two since you've been talking to Dino and that seems to be what he's assuming, but it's unclear from your actual posts, so can you clarify?
Assuming that's what it is, can you verify that Q8 base is grounded (via continuity, not 0V) when fuzz repeats are switched off? That would rule out bleed along the intended Fuzz Repeat path.
Basic question: Have you already poked at the physical wiring? This LFO has a huge spike, and wiring capacitance may be enough to cause bleed if the wires cross funny. Not that I've had it happen in this build, but there are an awful lot of ways those wires might bump together.
I did a quick phone test with Dino last night (and he can chime in here if he wants) and it sounds to me like it is definitely one of the last two.
It is definitely something with the LFO. When I use the external CV pedal I get great... non-ticking formant sound. As soon as I throw the Animate switch on... BOOM! Dino says that there will be some noise but this was definitely much louder than his build.
Some recent updates:
- I did install RF26 (47K) in parallel with the trimmer pot (50K) so it looks like I had a ~16K resistance instead of the stock-ish 47K going into the Filter PCB. I fixed that least night by cutting out the 1/4W 47K resistor and now just have the trimmer in place.
- I also re-adjusted my R20 to coorespond to Dino's initial resistance settings. Also, re-biased RF29 to get the 3.80VDC on the wiper.
Tonight, I am going to re-test and see where I stand. I also want to tackle adjusting the RF55 and RF77 trimmers to tune in the formants a bit. Hoping all of this will get the LFO bleed down a bit.
Finally, Dino did suggest that I may have used an ON-ON-ON switch for the Fuzz Repeats but....... I checked the switch and it is definitely ON-OFF-ON.
Quote from: Keppy on October 17, 2017, 02:23:39 AM
Assuming that's what it is, can you verify that Q8 base is grounded (via continuity, not 0V) when fuzz repeats are switched off? That would rule out bleed along the intended Fuzz Repeat path.
I will add this to the list of items to check tonight ;)
A bit of last minute second guessing on my part so a confirmation will go far......
For the DPDT On-Off-On Repeats toggle, can someone confirm that thiss is the proper operation of the switch?
Lets number the switch poles like this: 1 2
3 4
5 6
So, when the toggle is UP, then Pole 3 connects to 5 AND pole 4 connects to 6
When the toggle is centered, there is NO contact between any of the poles
When the switch is DWN, Pole 3 connects to 1 AND pole 4 connects to 2.
Correct?
When in FFM mode, I get continuity between Q8 Base and GND. I lose it when I switch to Repeat or Both mode.
Still no noticeable change in the LFO noise on the formants. Removing the 1/4W R26 resistor and re-adjusting the R26 trimmer did mellow out the sharpness.
Gonna play with the R55 and R77 trimmers to try to dial in some goodness and dial out the badness. More to follow...
UGG!!!
Spent the last 2 hours adjusting trimmers and listening to LFO noise >:(
No matter where I adjust to, the tick does not dissipate. Maybe it is inherent in the system and I am just being fickle???
It sounds phenomenal as long as you continue to strum or play :icon_lol:
If anyone has any other ideas..... I am open to suggestion.
Have you verified the zener fix with a meter? If you meter the R39/40/64 junction, it should never rise above ~15V. If that's not the case, you will get bleed. I spent a bunch of time with the animation off, triggering the flip flop manually when diagnosing that problem. The zener is intended to keep that junction at 15V at all times. Without it, when you use one animation mode (not both), the voltage at that point jumps from 15V to 30V causing LFO bleed. Actually not straight LFO bleed, but the inability to turn fuzz repeats or FFM off completely.
Do you get a smooth sweep from the animation? If C6 was faulty it could cause the filters to change instantly instead of sweeping. That would also account for it changing when you adjust R26.
We all feel your pain about listening to noise for hours. We had to figure out the trimming procedure from scratch, remember? :icon_biggrin:
Quote from: Keppy on October 18, 2017, 03:26:49 AM
Have you verified the zener fix with a meter? If you meter the R39/40/64 junction, it should never rise above ~15V. If that's not the case, you will get bleed. I spent a bunch of time with the animation off, triggering the flip flop manually when diagnosing that problem. The zener is intended to keep that junction at 15V at all times. Without it, when you use one animation mode (not both), the voltage at that point jumps from 15V to 30V causing LFO bleed. Actually not straight LFO bleed, but the inability to turn fuzz repeats or FFM off completely.
Just to make sure, the 15V 0.5W zener diode I installed went from (cathode) to R5/Q2/C2+ junction and (anode) to R7/C2-/R24 junction. Is that correct orientation?
Quote from: Keppy on October 18, 2017, 03:26:49 AM
Do you get a smooth sweep from the animation? If C6 was faulty it could cause the filters to change instantly instead of sweeping. That would also account for it changing when you adjust R26.
The sweep is smooth and the formants sound great! The problem is when the strings are muted I am getting what I consider a great deal of noise. Ticking, tocking, sweeping, swooshing, etc. I know the sweeping and swooshing are typical in this unit. My issue is with the Tick tocking and its level. I do get what I would consider a "seperate" tick/tock when I put it in Repeats mode but the original noise is there too.
EDIT: I used the 2N2646 UJT for Q2 and did not install the Ralt resistor. Just for clarification
Quote from: Keppy on October 18, 2017, 03:26:49 AM
Have you verified the zener fix with a meter? If you meter the R39/40/64 junction, it should never rise above ~15V. If that's not the case, you will get bleed. I spent a bunch of time with the animation off, triggering the flip flop manually when diagnosing that problem. The zener is intended to keep that junction at 15V at all times. Without it, when you use one animation mode (not both), the voltage at that point jumps from 15V to 30V causing LFO bleed. Actually not straight LFO bleed, but the inability to turn fuzz repeats or FFM off completely.
So, I just checked this junction with the Animation ON and the switch in FFM and I am definitely seeing voltages go up to about 30VDC. I lowered the Rate pot to minimum and adjusted the rate internal trimmer as low as I could go. My meter was jumping between 17 and 30VDC.
I did install a 15V 0.5W zener as instructed above in my last post. Is the orientation that I specified correct??
Awesome! You're describing the textbook zener problem. It sounds like you have the anode of the zener connected to ground just as it should be, but the cathode is in the wrong place. It needs to go to the R39/40/64 junction. Good luck!
Quote from: Keppy on October 19, 2017, 02:44:04 AM
Awesome! You're describing the textbook zener problem. It sounds like you have the anode of the zener connected to ground just as it should be, but the cathode is in the wrong place. It needs to go to the R39/40/64 junction. Good luck!
Installed the 15V zener between C8- (anode) and the cathode went to the R39/40/64 junction.
I am now getting a constant 14.65VDC on the junction when Animation is on and I am in FFM mode.
However, I am still getting the tock, tock, tock, tock, tock on all formant channels with the strings muted.... and still fairly loud :'(
Am I being too picky??
Did it change at all? I'm shocked that you didn't describe any change after installing the zener correctly, even if it didn't completely fix the problem.
You've verified that Q8 base and collector are at correct voltages, which basically rules out the percussion repeat path and past known design problems.
Since you said that the ticking only occurs with the formants on, it seems like the tick is getting in through the filter CV inputs. These are smoothed by the C9/C10 shunt caps. The formant switches are fed by Q5, which has C6 as a smoothing cap on the base. These three caps are responsible for turning the ticks into sweeps. Maybe try metering/poking at these caps and associated resistors. Frankly, though, I'm out of obvious ideas. :(
greg.... the ticktock crap is normal and part of the sound of the circuit. my original did it, dino's clone did it, my clone does it.
the only way to get it to stop completely is to turn the switch to ffm only, and decrease the depth of the fuzz repeat pot.
its SUPPOSED to make that damn noise. you're just not supposed to stop playing.
:)
seriously, noisy noisy beasts. if it were an lfo issue, it would be whining, not ticktocking. its a fuzz repeat, or percussion repeat like on an old organ.
of course, maybe you guys will find a cure, but it IS inherent in the original units.
So, I made the last few changes (removed a misplaced zener in the circuit) and it still sounds the same. I guess it is an inherent thing.
One final question....
When I have Animation on, and a formant selected..... NOW.... I am not getting any modulation in Repeat mode. It works fine in FFM and Both (I get Bow-wow, Yoy-yoy) but when I flip to Repeat mode.... I get no modulation..... just sounds like a flat filter.
I don't remember it doing that before I removed the misplaced zener ???
FFM = Formant Frequency Modulation.
You're not supposed to hear auto filter sweeps without the FFM on. Manual movement with the treadle should still work.
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on October 20, 2017, 11:04:30 PM
When I have Animation on, and a formant selected..... NOW.... I am not getting any modulation in Repeat mode. It works fine in FFM and Both (I get Bow-wow, Yoy-yoy) but when I flip to Repeat mode.... I get no modulation..... just sounds like a flat filter.
I don't remember it doing that before I removed the misplaced zener ???
The zener fix exists to stop the LFO bleeding into the filters in Fuzz Repeat mode (and also to stop it from bleeding into the fuzz repeat section in FFM mode). Without the zener fix, it's impossible to turn either mode off, though the switch will make one mode or the other stronger.
that switch should choose formant filter modulation, fuzz repeat, or both.
it SHOULD sweep the filter only if the footswitch is on for the modulation, other wise you need to use the treadle to sweep the filter.
the ticktockticktock crap from the fuzz repeat is a "feature".
you guys who haven't played an original may think its a bug, but thats the way they work.
Thanks for all the help Dino, Keppy, and Jimi! I think this is a wrap!
One final thing....
Anyone happen to have a copy or link to the original user manual? Something that explains all the controls?
AFAIK there never WAS a user manual for these things.
i think ya were supposed to just drop some kinda chemical in your eye or something, crank it up and mess with the knobs, greg ;)
the only thing i've ever seen were some advertisements for it way back. the one i got originally had sat at windham high school unused and unopened until i enqured about it around 76 or 77. no paperwork.
the band director had no idea about it. said it was a left over from the electronic music class that had been canned in 1972 or so.
the sad thing is that a couple other local schools had them as well, and they were simply thrown away (along with synths and modules... i scored an electrocomp eml 101 "pseudo poly" analog for 50 bux from a "rival" high school that had been put out for trash).
Quote from: Govmnt_Lacky on October 21, 2017, 11:38:32 AM
Thanks for all the help Dino, Keppy, and Jimi! I think this is a wrap!
One final thing....
Anyone happen to have a copy or link to the original user manual? Something that explains all the controls?
Email sent.