To share or not to share … ?

[R.G.]

You are right R.G., but people from free-software are always dealing  with this stuff! CC licenses have legal value and, at least in the CE, these licenses are embedded in local countries legislations.

Yes, I know. I used to work tech support for IP licensing for A Major Computer Company, and had a lot of patent/copyright/trademark words pounded into my thick skull.  As I pointed out, I am not a lawyer. But several very competent IP lawyers explained to me in some detail that copyrights - which is what CC licenses are for - do not protect circuits.

That's just my understanding, as filtered through a few years of being told that. The real legal result on any one issue does not exist until a court, and possibly some appeals courts rule on the specific circuit and complaint.

In any case, by most patent laws in most countries, public disclosure of a patentable idea does two things: it makes the idea public domain for anyone to use for any purpose, and it established a date of the disclosure which prevents others from enforcing a patent on your idea and keeping you from using it. So simple disclosure is enough to prevent being excluded from your own idea, no licensing needed. That is one reason I disclosed the Millenium Bypass.

It's funny though. Nothing prevents someone from reading something on the web, then going and filing, and even getting a patent on it. Case in point: battery emulators and "sag". I did a voltage regulator with a series resistor for emulating a dying 9V battery and posted on geofex. It's in the regulator schematics in the "Spyder" power supply design  (which I believe itself predates another very popular pedal power supply) and I think in another schemo on geofex. I'll have to go look it up again. A few months later, someone applied for a patent on a variable voltage regulator and a variable resistance in series with the output, substantially the same circuit. They were *granted* the patent, which shocked me to death, as patents are not allowed for idea obvious to one skilled in the art, which is what I thought it was. I don't know if the guy got the idea from geofex or not, but the timing was suspicious. And in any case, the pre-publication of the idea at geofex would make the patent unenforceable, I think. Again, I am not a lawyer.

And no amount of claiming copyright prevents use of the underlying circuit or circuit principles, only the actual words and images presenting the idea.

At least that's what I've been told. 

In point of fact, no individual person can protect a legitimate, valid patent against a well-funded adversary. Look up the story of the interval windshield wiper. There is a principle that you do not really own anything you can't defend, and a single person cannot pay lawyers enough to defend a patent against a large company; at least that's true in the USA. May be different other places.

But if disclosing something under some license or other does make you feel better that your ideas won't be looted, GREAT! I just have little faith in that process. If it works for you, great.

[tca]

But if disclosing something under some license or other does make you feel better that your ideas won't be looted, GREAT! I just have little faith in that process. If it works for you, great.

My point is simply this:  people should be able to study hardware, to understand how it works, make changes to it, and share those changes.

And I think we all agree on this!

Thanks for your reply.

P.S.
For CE I mean EU (European Union).

[drolo]

From what i understood, electronic circuits are quite impossible to copyright anyway. Otherwise there could have been no BOSS DS-1 after a tubescreamer (not to mention the gazillions of exact copies and variations that followed). What CAN get copyrighted is the name of a pedal.

[Mike Burgundy]

In point of fact, no individual person can protect a legitimate, valid patent against a well-funded adversary. Look up the story of the interval windshield wiper. There is a principle that you do not really own anything you can't defend, and a single person cannot pay lawyers enough to defend a patent against a large company; at least that's true in the USA. May be different other places.

Or the other way 'round; dual recifier patent comes to mind.
Apparently the patent people are more and more moving towards approving patents without proper research (let the courts sort it out). I think this is becoming a trend in the EU as well, unfortunately.
On a lighter note: do a patent search for "anti-gravity illusion shoes" for a quick smile ;P

[Electron Tornado]

I was researching a project several years ago that involved LEDs. As part of that, I searched through patents, and found that the simple circuit to light an LED was patented. Yes, one LED, one resistor, and a power source, that was it.     Now, is everyone who uses LEDs paying the patent holder a fee? 

Actualy, I wish I was the guy who came up with the diagram showing which way the batteries go in something. That's "art work" that can be copyrighted, right? Man, that dude must be richer than Bill Gates! 

[drolo]

Actualy, I wish I was the guy who came up with the diagram showing which way the batteries go in something. That's "art work" that can be copyrighted, right? Man, that dude must be richer than Bill Gates! 

And I wish i had patented the alphabet ... :-D

[jsleep]

It's sort of senseless to discuss legalities, since the only rule of law is: the one who wants to spend the most money on the legal battle will win.  I have a feeling that most of us hanging out at this forum will be the losers  I think that's been mentioned over and over and over.... in some of the over and over and over... forum threads.   

The main issue has already been addressed; are you ready to completely let go of it and not get emotional over what will be done with it in the future?

Most people on forums will look at a schematic and say; "what a simple idea", spend 10 minutes implementing it and off they go.  This can be completely infuriating to the one who worked hours and hours, days and days tweaking, testing, listening re-tweaking, re-testing re-listening until getting it just right.

JD

[Bill Mountain]

It's sort of senseless to discuss legalities, since the only rule of law is: the one who wants to spend the most money on the legal battle will win.  I have a feeling that most of us hanging out at this forum will be the losers  I think that's been mentioned over and over and over.... in some of the over and over and over... forum threads.   

The main issue has already been addressed; are you ready to completely let go of it and not get emotional over what will be done with it in the future?

Most people on forums will look at a schematic and say; "what a simple idea", spend 10 minutes implementing it and off they go.  This can be completely infuriating to the one who worked hours and hours, days and days tweaking, testing, listening re-tweaking, re-testing re-listening until getting it just right.

JD

You raise a good point.  I only have 1 or 2 nights a week that I get to work on pedals (from 10-midnight usually).  It might take me months to complete a design that someone with more free time could have done in 1 afternoon.  After all of the hours I spent tweaking I'll come here and see that someone did it better than me years ago.  And don't get me started on how long it take me to actually build a pedal once I designed it.

If you're ok with zero recognition (and $$$) after an investment like that, then feel free to share.  If the design is worth pennies in the real world but priceless to you...don't share.

[R.G.]

It's sort of senseless to discuss legalities, since the only rule of law is: the one who wants to spend the most money on the legal battle will win.  I have a feeling that most of us hanging out at this forum will be the losers 

I always knew you were a smart guy! 

[drolo]

The main issue has already been addressed; are you ready to completely let go of it and not get emotional over what will be done with it in the future?

Most people on forums will look at a schematic and say; "what a simple idea", spend 10 minutes implementing it and off they go.  This can be completely infuriating to the one who worked hours and hours, days and days tweaking, testing, listening re-tweaking, re-testing re-listening until getting it just right.

JD

Just some more Yoga classes and I am sure i'll be ready :-)

[pinkjimiphoton]

i just figure it's a pay it forward kinda thing. i figure, if someone on the net wants to build something i've come up with, it's cool, it's payback for all the stuff i've learned from other people.
and if someone wants one, they can always ask me to build one; i would prefer it not to be used commercially, if i actually did come up with something completely original...but them's the breaks when ya share it with the world.

[garcho]

If you stole someone's circuit and sold it as your pedal and you made a bunch of money on it you're STILL a genius for figuring out how to make money selling guitar pedals A despicable, thieving jagoff, but a genius nonetheless. If you're a genius and invent a mega awesome circuit for a guitar pedal, even if you do sell a bunch, you probably already have a day job that pays better anyway, and you'll be spending all your time on the phone and doing invoices, not inventing mega awesome stuff anymore.

[mac]

AFAIK, your circuit is protected only if you patent it, and it is protected only in your country unless your local patent office has treaties with other countries.
Patenting is expensive, and every year you have to pay a fee that in most cases is not big but increase over time.
And if you think "ok, I'll cheat and write on the schematic the letter (c) or patent pending", there are nice fines for this.

Read USPTO and european PTO FAQS.

mac

[R.G.]

My point is simply this:  people should be able to study hardware, to understand how it works, make changes to it, and share those changes.
And I think we all agree on this!

Yes, we do, most emphatically. In fact, that is the whole point of having patents.

The concept of a patent is that the government gives you a monopoly (in concept, anyway) on commercializing the idea you patent for a fixed time, usually about 20 years. What they take back in return for you getting that is that you have to explain in detail about your idea and make that explanation available to the public. The government is paying you to make your idea public instead of hiding it.

And further, most countries make it legal for  you to not only read and study the patent explanation, but to make a model for yourself for your own use. The monopoly is only for licensed sales.

So yes, even governments agree with you.

If you're a genius and invent a mega awesome circuit for a guitar pedal, even if you do sell a bunch, you probably already have a day job that pays better anyway, and you'll be spending all your time on the phone and doing invoices, not inventing mega awesome stuff anymore.

There is a huge divide between designing and making circuits and being a shopkeeper. Not all people can do both. As an aside, there is another huge divide between building pedal circuits and playing guitar well. Picking any one path means choosing NOT another path, at least in terms of time spent on the path.

[tca]

My point is simply this:  people should be able to study hardware, to understand how it works, make changes to it, and share those changes.
And I think we all agree on this!

Yes, we do, most emphatically. In fact, that is the whole point of having patents.

The concept of a patent is that the government gives you a monopoly (in concept, anyway) on commercializing the idea you patent for a fixed time, usually about 20 years. What they take back in return for you getting that is that you have to explain in detail about your idea and make that explanation available to the public. The government is paying you to make your idea public instead of hiding it.

And further, most countries make it legal for  you to not only read and study the patent explanation, but to make a model for yourself for your own use. The monopoly is only for licensed sales.

So yes, even governments agree with you.

I don't think they do. My point is exactly the opposite about patents! Probably because I'm on the other side of the Atlantic ocean, don't know . But your idea of "simple disclosure is enough to prevent being excluded from your own idea, no licensing needed" is probably the best way to go. Times are changing! 3D printers will change the way we see and use material objects, only time will tell what is the future of open-source hardware.

What is missing and needed is a Star Treck replicator! That would make, at least, my life simpler.

Cheers.

[R O Tiree]

I might be wrong, but I thought that copyright on art-work (schematic layout, PCB layout, case art, etc) is enforceable, even if the circuit itself is not under patent.

If I went to GEOFex and loaded one of RG's schems (note his copyright notices?) into PaintShop, erased his copyright and inserted my own and then posted it here (dumb) and tried to pass it off as my own work, I'd be in a world of pain if RG chose to press-to-test.  If I re-created it in ExpressSCH, for example, laid out slightly differently and hosted it on my own website, then I can copyright my work.

Same goes for PCBs - If I used Tonepad's layout for a circuit and then tried to make money off it, then they could have me in court in a heart-beat.  My own layout however, would be sacrosanct, even if all the parts were exactly the same values, pin spacings, tolerances and voltage ratings, just laid out differently.

Zachary Vex hauled someone over the coals a few years ago, IIRC, not for copying his Fuzz Factory, but for copying his funky hand-painted artwork and pretending it was a ZVex original.

There's also the matter of trademark dilution.  If I built a tweaked Big Muff Pi, I could not market it as such - that would get me straight into court. Neither could I call it a "Big Muff Chi", or any other variation on that theme, because it's sufficiently close to Big Muff Pi to dilute that trademark. Similarly, calling a compressor a "Lemon Squeezer" or a "Dino-Comp", for example, would just be asking for trouble.

As to protecting your circuit, a patent would, as has been said above, be almost impossible to enforce even if you could get one granted. "Gooping" the circuit is one way, as is making it impossible to take the pedal apart without trashing it.  Both these methods make repairs difficult, but they do put off the casual hacker from "the other forum", for example, from splashing your bright ideas around the interwebz.

[m4j0rbumm3r]

There is a principle that you do not really own anything you can't defend, and a single person cannot pay lawyers enough to defend a patent against a large company; at least that's true in the USA. May be different other places.

I would like to second that view for Western Europe. Before I decided to work as an engineer, I had an internship at a commercial patent bureau in The Hague. It was similar to a regular law firm, but they helped clients with patent applications, patent disputes, etc.

Basically, anyone with the funds to outlast you in a legal battle can 'run off' with your idea. That doesn't mean a patent is entirely useless to the lone inventor. Although any large company could afford and win a legal battle with you, it may be better for them -both in terms of funds and reputation- to just pay you a smallish (perhaps even fair?) amount in return for a license to use your patented design. Just make sure that what you ask for is substantially less than what they would have to spend to ruin you with a legal battle.

[garcho]

Just make sure that what you ask for is substantially less than what they would have to spend to ruin you with a legal battle.

   

Sounds a bit like publishing music for commercials, "ask for a little more than the cost to license the cover you're licensing." Blech.

[Kesh]

Can you link me to your schems please?

There's a schem on here in the reverb belton brick resources thread.

I'm a relative noob at pedals, so most of my sharing online is "I've found so and so works, try that". I was mostly expressing my general principles.

My build group/hackspace is where most sharing happens.

[deadastronaut]

this forum , and the entire web would be pretty bloody boring if nobody shared anything..

if a pedal is that  good, someone will reverse (de-goop) engineer it anyway......just my 2p