Tonepad Envelope Filter

[duck_arse]

bilo, what do you have connected across the "E - F" pads, with the brown wires? have you the third 500k pot fitted? and looking at the circuit diagram/pcb, there is a few "things you must do with cmos" not being done.

all cmos inputs, in all circuits, must be tied to a logic level. untied inputs are the devil's playground, as someone may once have said.

tied can be 0R to 1M, and level can be either low (0, 0V, ground, earth, -V) or high (1, V+, positive, B+, supply, Vcc, Vdd, 9V). only not 9V in this case, but "Vs". an unused gate's input can also be tied to another gate's output, and the unused output is left unconnected.

so, the "TG" or control inputs on the 4066 can/should all be joined together, in this case it won't hurt. and IC1b is left floating when the not-reverse sweep is selected. connect "C" to "G" permanently, and use a single pole switch, "H" to "G or D".

and the on-resistance of a bi-lateral switch (IC3) rises as supply voltage falls, and while this won't matter much in this circuit, it wouldn't hurt to wire the unused switches in parallel with the used switches. so pin1 to pin11, pin2 - pin10, pin3 - pin9, pin4 - pin8, and 13 - 5 -6 -12 all tied together.

none of this will get your circuit working, however. I'm struggling on the b/b, because I only have 4049's, and it took me a couple of hours tonight to discover that 1 inverter out of a possible 12 is cactus. so, I'm progresed a bit, but it's not yet going. I'll keep you posted.

[bilo01]

bilo, what do you have connected across the "E - F" pads, with the brown wires? have you the third 500k pot fitted?
Exactly yhis Duck. I used the wiring scheme in the following pic which i copied from this forum somewhere:
[http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k397/philby01/wiringDPDTswitches_zpsb68436a0.jpg]

[tied can be 0R to 1M, and level can be either low (0, 0V, ground, earth, -V) or high (1, V+, positive, B+, supply, Vcc, Vdd, 9V). only not 9V in this case, but "Vs". an unused gate's input can also be tied to another gate's output, and the unused output is left unconnected.

so, the "TG" or control inputs on the 4066 can/should all be joined together, in this case it won't hurt. and IC1b is left floating when the not-reverse sweep is selected. connect "C" to "G" permanently, and use a single pole switch, "H" to "G or D".]
Don't know exactly how to interprete this. As said, I'm a noob here and also at working my way through diy pedal making. And no electrical background whatsoever. Makes me wonder this class is too high for me, but i like to think that you can do everything by start trying.
I really don't want to take too much of your time because i know you already dug in, for which i'm very thankfull. But i understand it better in a clear drawing or something. Don't even know what "Vs" means
Hope you understand.

[duck_arse]

no problem. I'm setting up a new(er) computer at the  moment, so diagrams are a little beyond me at the moment. I'll see.

I have made a little progress on this. I had to re-order all the connections to suit the parts I have here, and I finally got something happening tonight. I'm not sure exactly what it is that is happening, but it's more than I had yesterday. I'll investigate further, see what I can come up with.

practise measuring with your meter till I get back .....

[bilo01]

Lol, I will Duck. Thanks again.

I read all these things now about Nurse Quacky from GGG being so more pronounced vs the MXR clone from tonepad. So I went to the local store to by all parts but the 51 Ohm Resistor and the Pots and Jacks. I will be assembling some Layouts tonight ( Nurse Quacky - Deep Blue Dalay - Box of hall Reverb - Lotus Snowjob underdrive - Photonic Jergulator - TS 808 ), and run to the copyshop to get some copys on glossy paper. Anyway, this is my near wishlist. Start etching the Nurse tomorrow.
Still a number of noob questions:
* Should i cut the pins before soldering or after?
* Is it better to place IC-s in sockets? Didn't do that on the envelope.
* It seems to me that the Layout from GGG's MXR-EF clone is easier to build/understand then Tonepad's. What's your opinion on that.

Wouldn't mind having 3 envelope filters.. When they work one is already sold lol. And the other two would be nice for comparing.

[duck_arse]

ok, in order ....

hold on the nurse quacky. look over at AMZ for the Dr. Quack. it is mostly the same as the nurse, but with an input buffer added. I've built this on breadboard, it reallly quacks when it goes. use the lowest gain/hFE transistor you have for the Q2. does your dmm have a transistor tester?

hold on the etching for the moment!

ic pins never need to be trimmed. they are the correct length already. perfect for snagging fingers length.

I never use sockets. they sometimes cost more than the ic you put in them. and they can prove unreliable, work loose, etc. there are a couple of threads discussing them hereabouts. but, if you are new to soldering, or using 8$ chips, or comparing opamps, it might prove worthwhile.

I haven't looked at/didn't know there was another layout for mxr ef. I'm having enuff trouble as is. I do all my stuff on breadboard, and build on my own customed veroboard layouts, so it's only when someone else points me to a layout that I look at them.

if you look up user kipper4, he has just been doing the rounds of envelope filters, he can probably advise you better than I. tell him I sent you.

and now to etching. don't. if you don't have one, get yourself a breadboard, and a stack of resistors, capacitors, some opamps, and some run-of-the-mill transistors. then you just find a circuit, jamb the parts into the bb, have a listen, pull it apart and try another. then you don't end up with burnt ic's and three non-working boards. saves glossy paper and pcb as well. it's an excellent learning process, for layout, building and debugging. then, when you've compared and decided and KNOW THE CIRCUIT WORKS, etch and solder. you end up with something you want then.

and you can put a ts808 next to a ts9 or a timmy or a klon or a ...... and you can try the jergulator with silicons, or germaniums, or a mix of both, or the percolator or the barge , or the ..... you get the drift. same parts over and over, no wastage, more mileage.

and now, the a-gua. well, I finally got it to make some noise. it is currently the most annoying thing I've ever heard, combining a constant low pitched hum with a constant irritating high pitched whine. that's if you can get it to trigger ....... so I've got some whole lot more sorting to do, till I hear something more attractive than an old wino clearing his throat, and whining. all on the breadboard, so I can pull it all apart and start again.

you didn't tell what was connected to the "E - F" points. and can we see your pots, jacks and switches and their wiring, please?

so, breadboard, more research, and some cheap parts.

[bilo01]

[hold on the nurse quacky. look over at AMZ for the Dr. Quack. it is mostly the same as the nurse, but with an input buffer added. I've built this on breadboard, it reallly quacks when it goes. use the lowest gain/hFE transistor you have for the Q2. does your dmm have a transistor tester?

hold on the etching for the moment!]

I haven't done anything Duck. The ol' Mrs. got me working in the backyard with the chainsaw. It's a massacre out there.
I'll check the Dr. later. GGG got the Dr. too.
My dmm does have a transistor tester, but couldn't get it it to work the first time and haven't tried after.

[ic pins never need to be trimmed. they are the correct length already. perfect for snagging fingers length.

I never use sockets. they sometimes cost more than the ic you put in them. and they can prove unreliable, work loose, etc. there are a couple of threads discussing them hereabouts. but, if you are new to soldering, or using 8$ chips, or comparing opamps, it might prove worthwhile.]

I figured that out. What i meant were the legs of the transistors and caps..

[I haven't looked at/didn't know there was another layout for mxr ef. I'm having enuff trouble as is. I do all my stuff on breadboard, and build on my own customed veroboard layouts, so it's only when someone else points me to a layout that I look at them.

if you look up user kipper4, he has just been doing the rounds of envelope filters, he can probably advise you better than I. tell him I sent you.]

Fwiw, here's the link: http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/pdf/ggg_mxr_envelope_filter_mods.pdf

[and now to etching. don't. if you don't have one, get yourself a breadboard, and a stack of resistors, capacitors, some opamps, and some run-of-the-mill transistors. then you just find a circuit, jamb the parts into the bb, have a listen, pull it apart and try another. then you don't end up with burnt ic's and three non-working boards. saves glossy paper and pcb as well. it's an excellent learning process, for layout, building and debugging. then, when you've compared and decided and KNOW THE CIRCUIT WORKS, etch and solder. you end up with something you want then.

and you can put a ts808 next to a ts9 or a timmy or a klon or a ...... and you can try the jergulator with silicons, or germaniums, or a mix of both, or the percolator or the barge , or the ..... you get the drift. same parts over and over, no wastage, more mileage.

and now, the a-gua. well, I finally got it to make some noise. it is currently the most annoying thing I've ever heard, combining a constant low pitched hum with a constant irritating high pitched whine. that's if you can get it to trigger ....... so I've got some whole lot more sorting to do, till I hear something more attractive than an old wino clearing his throat, and whining. all on the breadboard, so I can pull it all apart and start again.]

I get your point Duck. It's better to learn to walk before you start running.
I'll get me some breadboard tomorrow and get into that. Good point!!

[you didn't tell what was connected to the "E - F" points. and can we see your pots, jacks and switches and their wiring, please?]
In an earlier post a i've put a link to a pic off the off-board wiring i used. I copied this somewhere from this forum.
Here it is again:
[http://s325.photobucket.com/user/philby01/media/wiringDPDTswitches_zpsb68436a0.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0]
And here are the pics of the actual Spaghetti:
[http://s325.photobucket.com/user/philby01/media/photo1_zps9e7f6eda.jpg.html]
[http://s325.photobucket.com/user/philby01/media/photo2_zpsa1864c86.jpg.html]

I hope this isn't become too much of a nightmare for you 

[duck_arse]

nightmares?

my personal preference for looking at things here is to have them show here, suitably resized to fit, in this window. I much prefer when people who use, for instance, photobucket, copy the "Direct" code provided for their image, and then bring it and paste it between the tags provided by the button above the reply hole and smileys. this then means I don't go crazy from scripts, trying to slideshow and magnify and all the rest. that stuff does give me nightmares. this button is good for defining quotes,

makes them easier to read.

I'll have a closer look at those pot pics, is there any chance of getting a full set of views of them so I can see values and wirings?

I've had another rebuild in sections on the bb, and I'm getting a better idea of how/what this circuit does. as for the transistor tester, the dmm should have a "hFE" or transistor test switch position. then you just plug yr trannie into the little socket, ebc or cbe, pnp or npn, and it will give you a reading of the dc gain of the transistor. these testers work best with silicon, and give an indication rather than an exact.

[bilo01]

Hi Duck.

Sorry for the mess-up. Tried to figure out how this works and think i've got it now 
Here's a bundleof pics. Difficult to shoot them right because of the spaghetti.

Attack Pot:
Treshold Pot:
Emphasis Pot:
In - Out:
DC:
3PDT:
Filter Range Mod:
Reverse Sweep Mod:
Over-all:

I haven't tested the socket yet. Haven't got a trannie anymore.. I did order a breadboard which will come in on tuesday. Looking forward to learn from it.

[duck_arse]

I have been squinting at your wiring photos, and I think the reverse switch is not quite right. I'll try and draw a diagram for you.

I've tried translating the circuit blocks to suit the different IC's I have on hand. not with much success. it's probably time to chuck these breadboards away. I had the oscillator section by itself on the bb last night, and it worked beautifully, lovely triangle waves, big square square waves, went from mostly off to square to mostly on with control voltage, lovely. I decided to move it 4 holes up the bb. since then, it's the meanest, ugliest wobbly waves you'd ever see. and I can't get the good one back.

I'll give the new pics another squiz tomorrow, see if anything appears.

I keep trying.

[bilo01]

Ok, thanks again.
I just saw on the pic that the grey wire from Bypass to Out PCB is slightly burnt. I will replace that.

[Kipper4]

It's a bit difficult to see how exactly the reverse sweep mod switch is wired because of the twists in the wiring but it looks potentially ok.
I haven't builds the tonepad mxr ef.
I've built plenty but I don't remember doing the tonepad.
I guess the reverse sweep mod is a kinda rectifier mod? In the lfo
What issues are you having?

[Kipper4]

A couple of threads concerning past stated issues


http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=97836.0


http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=66768.0

[bilo01]

Hi Kipper,

The first link you've posted contains this drawing made by Korgh:


In an additional note about the Emphasis Pot he states:

Smiley
Edit:
woops the resonance pot will work in reverse as it is here... flip the wires to E and F and you'll get more resonance(peaky filter) as you turn the pot clockwise

I did not do this.

The drawing above is the one I referred to earlier and checking it now makes clear that I mixed op wires C and D from the Reverse Sweep. I mixed up also the sides from the Filter Range Mod.
Stupid that I haven't seen this earlier, guess i'm going blind.

In the second link it deals about the TI chips which I did not use.
As shown above for IC1 and 2 i used Philips HEF4069UBP and for IC3 i used Motorola MC14066BCP. Regarding the posts i changed R14 from 62K to 100K.

Duck referred earlier to you for having build several envelopes:
* What is your opinion on the difference between NurseQuacky and Dr.Quack (both from GGG)
* Isn't the layout and wiring of the MXR from GGG easier to build and understand for a novice like me.



Thnx for making me alert.

[bilo01]

Another thing Kipper,

Duck_arse stated earlier the following:

bilo, what do you have connected across the "E - F" pads, with the brown wires? have you the third 500k pot fitted? and looking at the circuit diagram/pcb, there is a few "things you must do with cmos" not being done.

all cmos inputs, in all circuits, must be tied to a logic level. untied inputs are the devil's playground, as someone may once have said.

tied can be 0R to 1M, and level can be either low (0, 0V, ground, earth, -V) or high (1, V+, positive, B+, supply, Vcc, Vdd, 9V). only not 9V in this case, but "Vs". an unused gate's input can also be tied to another gate's output, and the unused output is left unconnected.

so, the "TG" or control inputs on the 4066 can/should all be joined together, in this case it won't hurt. and IC1b is left floating when the not-reverse sweep is selected. connect "C" to "G" permanently, and use a single pole switch, "H" to "G or D".

and the on-resistance of a bi-lateral switch (IC3) rises as supply voltage falls, and while this won't matter much in this circuit, it wouldn't hurt to wire the unused switches in parallel with the used switches. so pin1 to pin11, pin2 - pin10, pin3 - pin9, pin4 - pin8, and 13 - 5 -6 -12 all tied together.

I haven't done this yet. This needs to be done? I'm not questioning Duck's view but just want to make sure.

[bilo01]

Ok guys, i made some progress. I've got sound now. I've changed the wiring to the scheme above ( stupid me!!).
Also 1 wire on the 3PTD to input was loose. Wire was folded after the hole and solder wasn't attached to pin.

So now i've got - at least some - sound. Approximately 50% volume drop compared to bypass ( which still works )
Also there is no quack and sound is only when Filter Range switch is off. When on there is no sound at all...

Turning the Pots doesn't make any difference in sound.

I remeasured and besides small differences between the last ( of about 0.05 V ) the changes are:

A=0
B=2.79
C=0
D=4.92
E=2.78
F=2.78
G=0
H=4.96
I=2.66
J=0

R9=0.35/4.58
R12=3.79/2.79
R25=2.65/2.77

C2=3.78/0
C6=3.78/0
C7=2.76/2.78
Ca1=2.76/0
Ca2=3.74/0

I rewrite the IC's totally:

IC1:
1=2.61
2=3.73
3=2.75
4=2.75
5=2.75
6=2.75
7=0
8=4.90
9=0
10=2.77
11=2.75
12=2.75
13=1.68
14=4.91

IC2:
1=2.44
2=4.73
3=4.73
4=0
5=0
6=4.87
7=0
8=0
9=4.61
10=4.55
11=0.34
12=1.75
13=0.62
14=4.92

IC3:
1=0
2=0
3=0
4=0
5=0
6=4.92
7=0
8=2.76
9=2.76
10=2.77
11=2.77
12=4.92
13=0
14=4.89

Below I repost my previous values for comparising:

So this part can't be right anyway

R1=0/0
R2=0/0
R3=1.20/0.34
R4=8.79/4.95
R5=2.82/2.77
R6=1.71/2.76
R7=2.55/2.78
R8=1.69/2.55
R9=0.38/3.67
R10=1.74/1.72
R11=2.79/2.76
R12=4.94/2.79
R13=2.79/2.79
R14=4.84/2.46
R15=0.61/1.74
R16=2.50/0
R17=2.47/4.91
R18=2.84/2.80
R19=2.73/2.84
R20=2.50/0
R21=0/0
R22=4.97/2.50
R23=4.48/4.51
R24=2.44/0.62
R25=0/0
R26=4.61/0

R27(Attack)
L=1.76 M=1.76 R=1.23
R28(Treshold)
L=2.80 M=2.80 R=2.80
9V=8.89

C1=4.52/1.20
C2=4.86/0
C3=2.52/0
C4=0/0
C5=2.75/2.32
C6=4.94/0
C7=4.05/0
C8=5.03/0
C9=2.49/4.92
C10=4.90/4.61
C11=0/4.91

Ground=0
In=0
Out=0

Ca1=4.94/0
Ca2=4.95/0

D1=2.32/4.92
D2=2.31/2.47

IC1:
1=0
2=4.90
3=2.78
4=2.81
5=0
6=2.76
7=0
8=4.93
9=0
10=2.76
11=2.75
12=2.73
13=1.68
14=4.91

IC2
1=2.46
2=4.75
3=4.75
4=0
5=0
6=4.89
7=0
8=0
9=4.61
10=4.55
11=0.34
12=1.73
13=0.61
14=4.87

IC3:
1=0
2=0
3=0
4=0
5=0
6=0
7=0
8=0
9=4.98
10=0
11=2.86
12=0
13=0
14=4.99

[bilo01]

Don't know what happened overnight??
Today at louder volume i tried again....

Now there is only sound sound with reverse sweep off and Filter range on or off. When turning Emphasis Pot, the loudness varies. Other pots have no effect.
I'm pretty sure about my post yesterday. Tried with battery and wall mart, same effect.

I will rewire the reverse switch. It gives a hard plop when switching. Don't know why though.

[Kipper4]

if i was you I'd check R4 because i just did a test 9v battery (actual voltage 8.8v) through a 3k resistor and still got 8.46v across the DMM
also if you look the ic2 pin 8 should be the same as ic3 pins 6 and 12 so i think somethings wrong there too (if you measured it in bypass mode.)

[bilo01]

Thnx Kipper,

I don't have a 3K resistor anymore, could i use a 3K3 which i do have?
I got a spare 4069 chip which i will interchange tonight. I believe i did not measure in bypass mode but values are the same doing so.

Another thing Kipper,

Duck_arse stated earlier the following:
Quote
bilo, what do you have connected across the "E - F" pads, with the brown wires? have you the third 500k pot fitted? and looking at the circuit diagram/pcb, there is a few "things you must do with cmos" not being done.

all cmos inputs, in all circuits, must be tied to a logic level. untied inputs are the devil's playground, as someone may once have said.

tied can be 0R to 1M, and level can be either low (0, 0V, ground, earth, -V) or high (1, V+, positive, B+, supply, Vcc, Vdd, 9V). only not 9V in this case, but "Vs". an unused gate's input can also be tied to another gate's output, and the unused output is left unconnected.

so, the "TG" or control inputs on the 4066 can/should all be joined together, in this case it won't hurt. and IC1b is left floating when the not-reverse sweep is selected. connect "C" to "G" permanently, and use a single pole switch, "H" to "G or D".

and the on-resistance of a bi-lateral switch (IC3) rises as supply voltage falls, and while this won't matter much in this circuit, it wouldn't hurt to wire the unused switches in parallel with the used switches. so pin1 to pin11, pin2 - pin10, pin3 - pin9, pin4 - pin8, and 13 - 5 -6 -12 all tied together.

Could you reply to this? I'm not sure how to interprete.
Thanx

[Kipper4]

what it means is
if i measure 8.46v through my 3k resistor (your R4)then your pin 14s on all three Ics should be measuring the same
take a voltage reading after R4

[bilo01]

if i measure 8.46v through my 3k resistor (your R4)then your pin 14s on all three Ics should be measuring the same
take a voltage reading after R4

9V in =8.83v ------8.83v(R4)4.96v    all nr.14 pins measure 4.96v

When i measure the value of R4 with my dmm on 20K it measures 297

What do you say regarding the colours of R4, I'lld say orange - black - black - brown = 3K. Or am i wrong

tied can be 0R to 1M, and level can be either low (0, 0V, ground, earth, -V) or high (1, V+, positive, B+, supply, Vcc, Vdd, 9V). only not 9V in this case, but "Vs". an unused gate's input can also be tied to another gate's output, and the unused output is left unconnected.

so, the "TG" or control inputs on the 4066 can/should all be joined together, in this case it won't hurt. and IC1b is left floating when the not-reverse sweep is selected. connect "C" to "G" permanently, and use a single pole switch, "H" to "G or D".

and the on-resistance of a bi-lateral switch (IC3) rises as supply voltage falls, and while this won't matter much in this circuit, it wouldn't hurt to wire the unused switches in parallel with the used switches. so pin1 to pin11, pin2 - pin10, pin3 - pin9, pin4 - pin8, and 13 - 5 -6 -12 all tied together.

I still don't understand Duck_arse's quote about connecting the pins of IC3. Should i connect the mentioned pins with wire or cut-off legs of resistors. And should i connect"C" to "G" the same way.
And how to wire the single pole switch "H" and "G or D"? Doesn't it matter which one i connect to H- G or D

Pfff, I think I'm a pain for you guys