Where is the MAGIC ;)

[Eddododo]

Thinking in terms of [clean, bass] preamps...

I 'get' gain, I 'get' headroom, I 'get' EQ...
but where are the subtleties... the unique properties
transistors vs opamps? inherent tonal/mid shaping independent of the EQ?
How do you approach maximizing the sensitivity/response? (I have noticed occasionally that certain circuits I have put together seem undynamic, and not in a compressed way.

im not looking for solutions, so much as y'alls thoughts, musings, discoveries

I DO understand that there is no shortcut to good engineering.. just curious as to.. some of the schools of thought, i suppose

[PBE6]

What do you mean by "maximizing sensitivity/response" exactly? And while we're at it, what about "undynamic"?

[Johan]

First of all, you need to treat your whole rig as a system.
For example. If you boost you lows, your speaker might be swamp the by the low end energy and you loose punch and your high end sparkle. So if you NEED more lows, how low do you need to go?  Does it really need to be down to 20hz or would a roll of from 80hz still do what  you want and still keep the rig sounding great?

[thehallofshields]

The magic is all in old-stock new-stock vintage Germanium Russian Transistors, carbon composite resistors, solid core wire, true bypass and knobs labeled magic.

The newb is strong with this one...

[Hatredman]

"...and knobs labeled magic".

You forgot the kill switch and the big copper thing.

[nick d]

   Search for Unicorn's Tears . Your quest may lead you to horse droppings .

[Johan]

.. and cream colored chicken head knobs...

[GibsonGM]

.. and cream colored chicken head knobs...

Do they sound better than the classic red ones, Johan??  I've heard that if you can find RED, you're golden!   

"Magic"...comes from finding something you really like the sound of (that is very subjective....), and finding out WHY it sounds that way.  Then playing around with the circuit, tailoring it to your tastes.  My opinion, YMMV.   

Simply being aware of bass mid treble response and learning how to modify it will yield endless improvements in tone, IMHO.  Often we have "too much" stuff, swamping what would otherwise be a good tone, as said above.   Knowing (by tweaking) how much to trim or add something is sort of 'magic', maybe... 

[Quackzed]

usually the more 'clean' and the more 'headroom' as well as bandwith, the less magic. if magic is getting something out other than what you put in...
generally pushing things to their limit and beyond yields more change between what goes in and what goes out, and these 'changes' generally are a consequence of limited 'clean' reproduction of sound, limited 'headroom' as well as limited bandwidth, or more simply speaking, magic=distortion...

[thehallofshields]

You know, I was shocked by the Magic of the Fetzer Valve from RoG. I really didn't believe that a single transistor could have an effect, and it added exactly what my rig needed. It's like it added the 10% that was missing, but I don't have the words describe it.

[Eddododo]

hyuk hyuk hyuk a buncha kidders.

I know it was an esoteric question, and worded pretty... stonedly


as far as the sensitivity.. I guess really I am thinking in terms of how hard to push something with the previous something?   A good example is trying to drive something that needs line level with maybe a hot active bass. Just seems weak, and adding gain doesnt seem to cure the 'feel'

I guess i was also just curious as to things like inherent tonal shaping.

OR another way of putting it- what makes some preamps sound great with everything at noon.
I know the real answer is 'good engineering', but I'm looking for a relaxed discussion, not to be answered too literally, or ridiculed

[PBE6]

Please pass the Dutchie leftwards so we can discuss this properly ;-)

Sounds like you're talking about transient response. I think that's mainly a headroom issue, but I've reading more in-depth about filters lately and it seems like the proper component values can make a bit of a difference. But I'd suggest you start by doubling the voltage (two 9V or an 18V adapter is a quick and easy mod) and seeing how much that helps.

As mentioned above, the right kind of distortion can be a pleasant addition. I personally enjoy the Fetzer design, and even though I understand the "sweet overtone distortion" is limited to linear operation, even slightly crunchy tones sound good to me. Probably too much (or not enough) Dutchie ;-)

[Keppy]

My vote: non-clipping distortion. Discrete designs with little feedback tend to be a little non-linear in their response, adding harmonic content without the dynamic compression associated with clipping. An example from tube designs is on page 15 of the chapter linked on Merlin's website here: http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/gainstage.html

[Eb7+9]

Thinking in terms of [clean, bass] preamps...

I DO understand that there is no shortcut to good engineering..

hmmm ... really?

[karbomusic]

When it comes to tones that aren't clean, I've noticed that something that creates some harmonic distortion that in turn drives something down stream into it's own distortion is many times magic sounding. YMMV.

[knutolai]

and knobs labeled magic.

look no further

[R.G.]

hmmm ... really?

Yep, really, discounting raw luck.

[tubegeek]

Such a tough question.

Now you see why there is so much emphasis on the classic gear from bygone eras which seemed to possess "a certain something" - but God knows what.

There are at least a few components to the answer: gain staging, headroom, distortion of various types. The nonlinearities - what "hifi" engineering tries to design OUT - are typically what we LIKE in musical instrument equipment. And it definitely is all about the whole system, not just Amp A or Speaker B or Curly Cord C.

Your question is basically why this whole forum exists.

[PBE6]

Your question is basically why this whole forum exists.

+1

Let the circle be unbroken

[Eddododo]

hear hear!


for what it is worth, Ive been playing with variations of the fetzer valve (the updated version... well both really)
playing with the headroom, bias points, component values... Its funny how going back to something that i thought was simple is always revisitable..