Killswitch/Stutter Pedal Questions (two separate builds)

[BrandonGuim]

Hey there,

I am finally getting into building pedals after wanting to do so for a long time
and the first build I am wanting to do is a killswitch/stutter pedal. I know this
is a really simple circuit, but what I am wanting to do I cannot find any information
on. At least, not in a single schematic/layout. Actually, there are two killswitch
builds I want to do that I cannot find information on.

Build A:

What I am wanting to do with this killswitch build is have the option
to switch (via toggle switch) between two momentary switches. One being
a Normally Open switch and the other being a Normally Closed switch. The
reason for this is so that I can cut a signal OUT and then switch over to
cut a signal IN.

How would I wire this? Would I run a wire from the 1/4" Input's TIP into
the toggle switches "Off" prong and then wire individually the other two prongs
to the switches and then each switch to the Output's SLEEVE? And then just run a
wire from the Input's SLEEVE to the Output's TIP?

Also, would this work with a simple toggle switch that has three prongs or
do I need to use a 3PDT?

Build B:

This build is an attempt to place a Mute and a Killswitch together.
This is mostly a design to save board space so that you can
still get that killswitch stutter via Momentary Switch, but then also
have the capabilities of a latched Mute via Latching Switch.

Would you simply wire Input > Momentary Switch > Latching Switch > Output?
That way if you throw the Latch then it cuts out the signal no matter what? I
imagine the two switches can be swapped and it would really matter, but
I could be totally wrong.


Any help would be greatly appreciated. I may be TOTALLY off base. I am just making these
assumptions based on other schematics I have seen. My apologies if this post is a no hope.

Thanks for any help!

EDIT:

Here are two diagrams I drew to help show what I am trying to do... hopefully it helps...

Cut and Pass Stutter Pedal Circuit

Mute and Stutter Pedal Circuit

[duck_arse]

hello and welcome, brandon. a kill/stutter for your first post, that might cause you some grief.

scheme a. yes. the centre of a single pole, double throw switch is called common. (this is why we always say: "draw the circuit diagram!") the outer two lugs, one is called "normally closed", the other "normallly open". when you pick up a switch, whichever contact is "closed" is the normally closed. same as your circuit diagram, you've got to draw the switch with one position closed, one open. doesn't relly matter which, until you get to the mechanicals.

wire the toggle N/C to the N/C momentary, and the toggle N/O to the mom N/O [that's a little puzzle for you]. then join the 2 free momentary contacts. input tip can got to toggle common, output tip can go to the commoned momentary contacts. connect sleeve to sleeve. done.

scheme b. mute and kill must NEVER appear in the same circuit box. there is an entire thread, with pictures, on this very topic. search for "burst box". also, please see my second sentence, this post.

[BrandonGuim]

Wow... are you talking about the 40+ pages of brain melting methods to avoid getting an answer?
I can't believe I read pages of that...

Well, I am not interested in any Jack White rig advice, rather I am hoping to use this more
for electronic influenced music, since stuttering can be a big part of it. Also for recording
experiments, etc. I know I can program this kind of stuff in DAW, but I love doing things
via pedals, because well... love for pedals...

Anyways, I didn't actually find any information regarding the designs I am interested in, so
I am guessing the "burst box" recommendation was to explain the grief part. My apologies
if this brings up foul memories for anyone.

Thanks for the explanation of "Design A," but I do not understand why you
"NEVER" put a Mute and a Kill switch together. I know I have seen at least
one pedal do this, e.g. Shut Up by AGW, which also has the bonus effect
of reversing the momentary switches ability (to either mute or pass sound)
when the "Mute" switch is engaged. I have no idea how though...

I'll post a link to said video (hopefully this is okay).

Shut Up Pedal Demonstration by AGW

Worst case scenario I'll just experiment with it until I figure it. I would really
rather not cause some grief of this board. Especially with my first post!!

Thanks again, mate.

[BrandonGuim]

Wait, are you stating that the toggle switch determines the state (i.e. Normally Open or Normally Closed)
of the individual switch? I thought the switch itself determined that. Ah man... lookin' like a fool over here!! :/

[BrandonGuim]

Cut and Pass Stutter Pedal Circuit]Cut and Pass Stutter Pedal Circuit

Mute and Stutter Pedal Circuit]Mute and Stutter Pedal Circuit

Okay, so I drew two diagrams (first time ever doing this) so hopefully this will be easier to discuss.
This somewhat makes sense to me, but it could be totally wrong.

To explain, I am expanding on a schematic that BeavisAudio has posted on their site.

Design A:
From the input the TIP runs into a SPDT Toggle switch that will swap between two momentary switches.
One being an SPST "N/O" (normally open) and the other being SPST "N/C" (normally closed). These both then run
into the SLEEVE of the output which runs back into the Input's SLEEVE (does this ground it or something?) and then
the Input's TIP also runs straight to the Output's TIP. I'm not really sure about grounding and all that jazz... so... yeah.

Design B:
This is basically the same exact thing except both switches are "N/O" and one is momentary to do the "Stutter" effect
while the other is a latch to do the "Mute" effect. It was stated that you cannot have a Mute and Kill Switch together,
but I do not see why that is. They are running separately, i.e. not "available" at the same time, does that make it okay?

Again, thank you for any help.

[samhay]

As duck mentioned, there are a number of institutional problems with your question - but that is (probably not) your fault.

Some things to muse on:
Semantics - what is a killswitch vs a mute vs a stutter vs a burst vs a ...?

As duck mentioned, you can get momentary DPDT switches* where one half is normally open and the other normally closed. I think this makes your plan 'A' boil down to a toggle DPDT and a single momentary DPDT (or SPDT if you can find one). I think you can then wire a latching switch in series to make plan 'B'.

*e.g. http://www.mammothelectronics.com/4SFS2PDT-MS-p/800-1001.htm

[BrandonGuim]

Just to try and clear things up, is the primary issue with my post the fact
that I am using, interchangeably, the terms stutter/kill switch/mute?

My assumption is that the terms are based on context, i.e. long term
cuts of the signal would classify as a mute. On the other hand, when the
intention is to rapidly, or at least within a brief amount of time, I would
call this a stutter or kill switch. These make sense to me, but I'm willing to
change if I am totally off base.

Is there an accepted terminology when addressing these designs?

Thanks for the link, I appreciate it and I certainly would not mind being able to
condense both designs into a single pedal. How would I know that a DPDT switch
is both N/O and N/C? The link you provided did not state anything other than
being a DPDT Solder Plug. Or would that be determined by the Toggle Switch
before it??

Finally, would I then wire the Momentary DPDT directly to the Latching DPDT?
If that is the case, does the Latching switch function the same no matter
how the Toggle switch is positioned??

[BrandonGuim]

After doing some research I think I am getting closer to understanding this,
but now I have a new set of questions. I found some statements stating that all
DPDTs contain both Normally Open and Closed sides. Is this true?

Let me try to get this straight. With a toggle switch I would be able to alternate between
a DPDT's Normally Open and Normally Closed sides?

Could I replace the Toggle Switch with a Latching Footswitch instead?
This way it would negate the need for a Latching Footswitch AFTER the Momentary
Switch (which originally would have been used to "mute" the signal until clicked again).
My reasoning for this is that if the alternating Latching Footswitch switches over to
the Normally Closed side of the DPDT then it would be "mute" until engaged, correct?
This is essentially doing what I intended to do with the following Latch in series,
except now the two modes of the Momentary are swapped via Footswitch allowing
the same ease of the previously stated concept.

I'll do a drawing so that you can be certain of my intentions and let me know
if I am (probably) wrong.

[snarblinge]

Hey Brandon, welcome to the forum. And a potential lifetime of collecting parts starting builds, and being frustrated they don't look as good as some of the stuff in the pictures thread.

You have chosen a pretty sweet project to start with, my first was tweeting a small 12v practice amp to be a 9v distortion pedal. It still doesn't work

All you need is a box and some switches, and some wire, and the jacks, led if you want, paint etc.

First you need to read up a bit more on switches, I watched the video on the shut up, that thing is beyond easy to build. Maybe this is why you are getting a bit of grief here. (Uncharactaristic too round here) start on this page http://www.beavisaudio.com/techpages/switches/ read it though a few times, get a handle on what it means.

Only momentary switches have nc and no contacts, it pretty rare in stomp box land not to have both.

I didn't look at your diagrams (I'm on mobile) but you said something about connecting the switch to the sleeve?? The signal is on the tip, so tips connect to switches, and to tip of output jack. For the purposes of what you want to build,sleeves are connected together. Things get a tiny bit trickier if you want an led. But not by much.

I have been looking into but have not bread boarded a pedal to flick on and off aoutomaticlly, tiny tremolo I believe will do this nicely. Once you have this one sorted perhaps look into that. Learn about ics and pots.

Good luck

[BrandonGuim]

Snarblinge,

Thanks for the warm welcomes!

I actually have been basing everything off of Beavis Audio's switches page.
I understand (somewhat) what is going on there, but I wanted to elaborate
on the designs and that is where I got stuck.

Heck... a couple of days ago I had no idea what DPDT even meant... hahaha.
So when I saw the Shut Up pedal it appeared to be magic in my head... until I
discovered, thanks to this topic, that momentary DPDTs are both N/O and N/C
and that makes total sense since they have two positions with a Common Center.
Now the Shut Up pedal looks extremely simple!

I am not understanding the wiring to the Output's TIP though. On Beavis Audio's page
the diagram shows the Input TIP > Switch > Output SLEEVE > Input SLEEVE and then
a single wire running from Input TIP > Output TIP, yet you stated it should be
somewhat inverse. Why is that?

What I am thinking is that I could wire it as follows:

Input Tip wired into Latching Switch's Common Center with ON/ON properties.
Top ON flows into the first pole on a DPDT (prongs 1 - 3 or A - C) and is connected
at 1 (A) which I shall assume is "Normally Open." Then I shall wire the Bottom ON
from the Latch Switch into the second pole of the DPDT (prongs 4 - 6 or D - F) and
will connect it at prong 4 (F) which I assume is "Normally Closed."

Now, before I wire into the Output's Tip, would I jump the Common Center of
Pole 1 into the Common Center of Pole 2 which would then be wired into the Tip of the Output?
Or would I not do that? I am at a bit of a loss as to how to get from the Momentary switch
to the Output jack. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks again for your post. Really helped!


And yes, a tremolo pedal is something I hope to later get into when I understand components more.
However, what I enjoy about the stutter (or whatever you would like to call it) is that it is not
as a constant pulse and can be more "random" I suppose. Plus the option to have an indefinite
mute (until the "N/C" side is pressed) is a really cool bonus.

EDIT: Sorry, I did not mean to say Beavis Audio's Switches page, I meant I have been looking
at his Stutter page to get familiar with things. Thanks for the link to the Switches page. Helps a lot.
I had read a couple of other switches pages, but his explains things a bit better.

[duck_arse]

hello and welcome, brandon. a kill/stutter for your first post, that might cause you some grief.

...............

scheme b. mute and kill must NEVER appear in the same circuit box. ......

I'm sorry if you thought I was griefing you. there is a lot of dumb jokes around here, they are not generally meant to be mean in any way. I make no comment on the use or usage of the stutter/kill/mute/burst terminology. that is, as I said, in the other thread. did you read the whole thing? it is about the best initiation we have around here.

a diagram. always draw a diagram. sorry for the crummy pushbutton symbols, I drew them just then ....



the first diagram you drew was almost there, but you went mechanical instead of staying electrical. from the diagram above, you can see the toggle has a contact normally closed, and one normally open. it doesn't matter which, but you have to draw it somehow. the pushbuttons are easy to work out, one is closed, the other is open. switches are easy, just follow the lines. you can see this circuit actually has no input or output, they are the same electrically whichever end you look into.

as for the switches themselves, you can use a dpdt "stomp" (I hate that term) switch, and use the second pole, not shown here, to switch between a led of red, and a led of green, just as a for instance. don't forget the current limit resistors. and draw that circuit, too.

there is a way to do this with a spdt momentary switch, and a toggle/stomp/latching changeover switch as well. if you were to wire the spdt push (which will have a NC and an NO, as you have found) with its common to the tip out, and its NC to the toggle NC, and NO to NO, again, done!

draw that, see if it becomes clear (or works, I did it in my head only). we like to help, we have fun where we can.

[samhay]

And a more complicated scheme that uses series/shunt switching (see: http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/automike/automike.htm).
Haven't tried this, so it could do with a second pair of eyes over it.

[BrandonGuim]

Thanks, mates! I really appreciate the schemes being dropped here for me.

Is there a better term than "stomp" switch? Is "push" a preferred term?
I didn't read the whole thing, but I read about 15 pages. I started feeling
my brain melt as the conversation went on so I had to stop for a bit. Haha.
Especially when it got to the segment about the coil between the Zvex pedals...

I'm really liking the scheme you posted, Samhay. I'll have to try it out.
If I can knock out the toggle switch then that would be great.

Could you explain why the Sleeve is connected to the two empty lugs
on the momentary switch? What would be wrong (or happen) if they
were not connected?

Thanks again, mates!

[samhay]

The burst box thread should be read in small doses, and only when in the right frame of mind (whatever that may be).
I was envisaging that both switches are footswitches, but they don't have to be.
There are no 'empty' lugs on the momementary switch. The ground (black wire, ideally also connected to the metal chassis somewhere) is connected to pins 2 and 5 to ground the amp side of the signal in mute - read the geofex page I linked for the pros and cons of various mute switching options.

[BrandonGuim]

Yeah, at first I opened it thinking it was going to contain all the info I needed for what I was wanting to build,
and then I quickly realized... it did not. Haha.

I was assuming both were footswitches, which rocks.
And okay, I figured the line running between the lugs and into the sleeve
was for the grounding of the pedal, but that's not something I totally understand yet.
Thanks for the help. I'll definitely be reading that article you linked!

[snarblinge]

Looks like all the help you need is here, one thing not covered is your reading of the jack wiring. Again I havnt gone and had a look at the beavis example, but I tnk you were/are just reading the schematic symbol for a jack incorrectly. This is easy to do. But imagine a jack plugged into the symbol and it makes more sense. The tip is the longest __/\ ring (if present) is in the middle. And sleave is usually a tall box [] let's see if I can asky the whole thing

[]__/\  mono jack

[]--v /\ stereo jack

[duck_arse]

Is there a better term than "stomp" switch? Is "push" a preferred term?

when I was a counterhand, back in '80, I was TOLD "they are gate switches". maybe, but I've never heard anyone refer to one as such since that moment.

footswitch is my preference, as an accurate description. stomp is what damon albarn (sp? right person?) does to his muff in woo-hoo film clip, but he can afford techs that change footswitchs and crumpled boxes as needed.

(I forgot all about earthing the signal in my diagrams, sorry.)

[belyheart]

I'm also currently trying to make, what is the shut up, but have been scanning instead of posting to avoid scrutiny. Thanks for taking the bullet.

[snarblinge]

i have accidentally made the shut up a few times

[duck_arse]

some here wish to give me the bullet, that I might make the shut up as well.