Converting from Schematic and veroboard layouts to tagboard

[joeychickenskin]

I have enjoyed making a few tagboard projects and have lost too many hours trying to debug veroboard circuits to keep my enthusiasm up, when the most likely limits are the working scale, the fragility of the veroboard and my own clumsiness and poor eyesight.

Does anyone know of an on-line tutorial or have any tips on conerting veroboard layouts to tagboard. I've seen some great tagboard layouts and tutorials about converting from schematics to layouts but the limitations of the parallel tagboard points must present specific problems and while I assume it's mainly about recognising the common connections, i wonder if there is a methodical approach to chosing which points to use.

[bool]

Slightly OT, but I'd recocmmend to look at how are tube amp layouts layed out - and to read on tube amp construction practices (google). Some things that are HT-specific aren't really of much importance with low-voltage circuits, but a good practice none the less.

I'm afraid I don't know of any quick step-by-step conversion tutorial.

[duck_arse]

the best way to convert vero to tagboard is : don't. get the circuit diagram, and work from that. that way you won't propagate existing errors, or create translation errors. and we'll be able to spot layout errors cause you'll be able to present both circuit and tagboard for inspection. people here love to say they hate reading vero.

I'll say it now: I hate reading vero. never really tried to read tag, haven't used it since the seventies.

[Brisance]

People posting vero layouts without a schematic always leave me puzzled, that effectively eliminates any thinking from the construction progress and causes errors. Even if I'm interested in something and it comes only in a vero layout format, I instantly discard the information, why should someone interested in your circuit reverse engineer it first, before constructing it?

[davent]

OK stupid question, what exactly is tagboard, two parallel widely spaced rows of terminals as in a tube amp's eyelet/turretboard? I'm crystal clear on vero, perf or pcb's, but clueless on what might be considered tag...
Thanks
dave

[joeychickenskin]

That's the stuff.

This sounds like good advice. So far I've followed veroboard layouts so if I'm going to learn/work out how to convert from vero layouts, I may as well learn to convert from schematics as long as there is one available. Most of the layouts that I've built have been verified but I guess that as well as any 2nd generation errors plus any of my own, I'd be led by a formatting that is trying to conserve space in a different way, often needing to force components apart due to their size than to keep the connections close.

[karbomusic]

the fragility of the veroboard

?? All the one's I use are sturdy as heck, however...

I rarely used other's layouts, I'd get the schemo and lay them out myself.

Lastly, I don't use vero anymore since I switched to etching PCBs. I did that for two reasons...

1. Errors - If I breadboard the schematic then build a PCB from that with something like Eagle, it sort of has to work barring design flaws. With Vero there are several points of possible failure when translating from schemo to layout then again when placing parts (too many holes, easy to miss one). There is no "connection" between the scehmo and the layout other than one's eyes.

2. Speed - Due to #1 things get really slow if you take the time to verify everything visually over and over and over so you know it's right. That is the #1 problem I see with vero, ease of wiring or layout mistakes though I admit it is great for building layout and debugging skills (that isn't a joke)

^A little off topic I know but just wanted to mention. I pretty much PCB only these days, hard to go back. Only problem is I had just stocked up on Vero boards before making the switch and don't really need them.

[Brisance]

I agree with the PCBs being fast and easy. Also easy to modify, I recently drilled 6 holes in my prototype's board and added 2 diodes and a cap.

[duck_arse]

the tagboardedness question leads me to ask : what is the stuff called on a single-sided short strip, up/down lugs, with bent-bottom mounting tags? would we be calling that "tagstrip"?

tagboards (both types) means you need a different type of capacitor handy, whereas the other methods can usually be all box caps and radials.

[deadastronaut]

+1 brisance...vero with no schemo bugs me too..

this..

http://www.ampmaker.com/store/Turret-board-and-tag-board/

[joeychickenskin]

By fragility I mean the veroboard itself. the last year has been an interesting learning process trying to get to grips with it. Errors have been:

-Using single core wire as it seemed easier to work with until I worked out that it was strong enough to lever the pad off the veroboard for wires comming off the board.
-Realising that a knife might not get all of the solder bridges
-Realising that a junior hacksaw can slip and damage the copper pads when severing bridges.

I've learned basic debugging skills but have a pile of abandoned circuits where I've become stumped (I've seen photos of other people's similarpiles of abandoned projects). The answer could be to persevere with those debugging skills but the board itself seems so frustrating.

I got so annoyed with veroboard  that in desperation, I even decided that a way of checking every single component connection in a small circuit was to socket EVERYTHING except wires which was ridiculous as I had magical socketboard that was essentially a load of upside-down components in a clunking box begging to fall out.

I had thought of learning to make PCBs but assumed that that would add another step to an already slow process but thinking it through, perhaps that would take less time than learning to layout circuits on tagboard and dealing with the practical limitations.

These are the various tagboard types:

http://www.ampmaker.com/store/Turret-board-and-tag-board/

Thanks for the advice!

[joeychickenskin]

Ha Ha Snap!

[slacker]

By fragility I mean the veroboard itself.

If you're destroying veroboard PCBs are definitely not the answer, the pads and traces are much more fragile.

[karbomusic]

-Using single core wire as it seemed easier to work with until I worked out that it was strong enough to lever the pad off the veroboard for wires comming off the board.
-Realising that a knife might not get all of the solder bridges
-Realising that a junior hacksaw can slip and damage the copper pads when severing bridges.

Without knowing anything about you and to take a big uneducated guess I want to say "slow down, take your time and work on the delicacy of your fabrication and soldering technique". I only say that because your description sounds like someone who is in a bit of a hurry, gets frustrated, hurries more which very quickly leads to diminishing returns. One thing about vero I hinted about above, they demand a certain amount of taking one's time.

I don't really have many solder bridges, maybe that occasional single tiny one that is easy to fix with an exacto kinfe, or any of the stuff you mentioned so I have to consider you either found some incredibly poor quality boards or just need a deep breath and some refining. Don't take that wrong because I could be completely wrong, it just sounds like you may be manhandling it more that you should which typically (by my own admission) or even possibly bad tools such as a substandard soldering station and so on. I'm hesitant to think it is the board at this point but remember this is only an attempt to help, not criticize. I been there so no worries.

[Brisance]

Also it helps to get the thinnest solder wire so it's harder to overapplicate. I use 2 thicknesses, 0.5mm for boards and 1.5mm for jacks and bigger stuff