Are there any arguments FOR better caps?

[Bill Mountain]

When I build for myself I use what every I can get cheap.  When I build for friends or for sale I try and buy better components.  I feel cheap if I don't use higher quality components (better pots, knobs, switches, etc.) especially if they are paying me.

For example, I might not use Tayda resistors on a commercial build because the thinner leads feel cheap.  I'll buy a more robust resistor for it's perceived increase in reliability.  They measure the same but the thicker leads look more professional and lay better when populating the boards.

But for caps I don't really know if there is a reason to use something like WIMA caps over cheap Tayda box caps.  I've read time and time again that there is no cap mojo for pedal applications but I have had noisy tantalums and ceramics that have made me quite picky.  I've also known cheap electrolytics to make great fireworks.  But for simple coupling or filtering I can't make up my mind on whether to buy the more expensive caps.  I'm not sure how I'd feel opening a $200 booteek pedal and seeing cheap components inside.

Then again the most popular vintage pedals used whatever and people obsess over those.  I guess I just need to develop a healthy understanding of when to pay for higher quality and when to skimp.

So, are there any arguments FOR better caps?

[merlinb]

Can't think of much. Take a look inside some 1980s piece of consumer junk and look at the cheap components they used -they still lasted 30 years!

One change is that today you can buy high temperature electrolytic caps (105 or 125 degrees), which should last longer before drying out. Tantalums also also much better today than they used to be.

[287m]

me and my friend here, almost never build (i mean boxed) with audiophile grade (wima family, etc)
too clean sound and too waste money
so, just with cheap mkp mkm mkt box or (ehm) mylar and ceramic! as long as fit in perf/etchboard
we go to eureka world and cheap paradise sound

and for repeat build (if necessary or just lust doing twin baby box), just use same component and almost same long wire

PS :
my question for you all here
like burn in audiophile gear, are you believe to burn in pedal?

[Frank_NH]

For me, I like to use quality caps because they are (usually) close to the labelled value (I use 5% tolerance parts).  Of course, you can measure your 10% caps and sort them. 

Then again, does 5%, 10%, 20% tolerance for your capacitors make much difference to the final sound of an effect?  Maybe...maybe not...

[Bill Mountain]

me and my friend here, almost never build (i mean boxed) with audiophile grade (wima family, etc)
too clean sound and too waste money
so, just with cheap mkp mkm mkt box or (ehm) mylar and ceramic! as long as fit in perf/etchboard
we go to eureka world and cheap paradise sound

and for repeat build (if necessary or just lust doing twin baby box), just use same component and almost same long wire

PS :
my question for you all here
like burn in audiophile gear, are you believe to burn in pedal?

Not on topic but I can't think of any reason to burn in a pedal.

I feel like I saw a thread on this at TGP?

[Bill Mountain]

For me, I like to use quality caps because they are (usually) close to the labelled value (I use 5% tolerance parts).  Of course, you can measure your 10% caps and sort them. 

Then again, does 5%, 10%, 20% tolerance for your capacitors make much difference to the final sound of an effect?  Maybe...maybe not...

Good points.  I guess I should be more concerned with the accuracy of the component than where its from.

[duck_arse]

Then again the most popular vintage pedals used whatever and people obsess over those.  I guess I just need to develop a healthy understanding of when to pay for higher quality and when to skimp.

parts were "harder" to produce back then, no backyard chinese factories, so the general standard of things like caps was much higher. mustard caps, for example. resistors - well, they got better, then they got cheaper. I'm not much for those flimsies, either. electos got smaller and better, then cheaper.

and probably, the greencap is the same as it ever was - never the same size twice.

[amptramp]

PS :
my question for you all here
like burn in audiophile gear, are you believe to burn in pedal?

There are some people who burn in devices with electrolytic capacitors because they claim the sound changes after a few dozen hours of operation.  I doubt burn-in gets you any acoustic change on a pedal - after all, it is going to be used and that will burn it in.

The other use of burn-in is to weed out infant mortality - the tendency for devices to fail early in their service life.  Reliability is poor for the first few hours of operation , then it settles into a long period of low failure rate then the failure rate gradually rises in what is called the "bathtub curve" - a steep drop at the beginning then a long flat period then a gradual slope upward like a section view of a bathtub.  I have caught several failures of electrolytic capacitors within a few hours of installation, so it does help reliability.

[wavley]

I just did a build that was two GuitarPCB.com guitar/bass drivers modded to be clean preamps so a guy can switch between an upright and his electric, the stomp just switches between the two circuits.  I used the little grey Tayda box caps where I would normally use WIMA and I have to say it sounds great, I don't know if the WIMAs would give me just a little extra, but I kinda doubt it.

If you've ever taken the poo brown caps out of a silverface fender and replaced them with something better (even fairly run of the mill caps like the cheap yellow tube caps they sell at weber) you'll totally be a believer in good caps in the right place.  Cap technology in general has gotten so much better over the years that even the cheapest stuff isn't really terrible if you use it for the right application, at least not for guitar anyway... MAYBE you can tell the difference in a HiFi?  I've got one build of an amp that I built with the weber caps, I'm building one for myself where I'm using the new SOZO mustard caps because I'm curious if it even matters anymore to spend the extra, we'll see once I can A/B them, but I'm starting to think that caps are starting to be a non-issue as far as negatively affecting sound.

[thermionix]

If you've ever taken the poo brown caps out of a silverface fender and replaced them with something better (even fairly run of the mill caps like the cheap yellow tube caps they sell at weber) you'll totally be a believer in good caps in the right place.

Yes, absolutely.  Just not orange drops, please!  I hate those as coupling caps.  Mallory 150s sound great, SoZo blues are wonderful.  (Haven't tried their mustards yet.)  Sometimes I kind of like the brown "poos" for their trashy, grainy sound.  Remember, in a B/F Fender the Rev/Vib channel usually goes through one brown cap, also a ceramic disc.  It's part of the sound.

But to OPs point, I think in some parts of some circuits, different makes/types of caps sound different.  That doesn't mean that the more expensive ones sound better.  But sometimes, yeah.  Same goes for resistors, transistors, transformers, speakers, etc.  What about pots, wire, and enclosures?

Put it this way, how many classic pedals and amps have been reissued over the last few decades?  Do any of them really sound like the originals?  Generally, no.  Some are closer than others, but no.  The reasons are many and varied.  But different components is definitely part of it.

[Gus]

I believe there is an argument for cheap caps

I sometime use the cheapest class or mystery class ceramic disk caps in certain areas of effects

[idy]

Effects that use electrolytes in signal path (tubescreamers have one) I use NP nichicon.

[karbomusic]

Effects that use electrolytes in signal path (tubescreamers have one) I use NP nichicon.

For the TS, I us film caps and no electros in the audio path. Actually anything thing that doesn't exceed 2.2u, I use film for. Actually scratch that, my circuit needs a 10u but otherwise, 2.2 and down I use film.

[tubelectron]

Look at the pedal innards above (my latest build) : what's that big capacitor labelled CAPA 0.1.MF ?



It is a paper-oil cap sealed with tar, dating from the late 40's/early 50's, Made in France by a company that closed its doors for dozen years : a pure Vintage-Mojo part indeed, exit SoZo and Co...  !

OK... I could also use a 0µ1/250V from Vishay-Roederstein like the other small yellow ones, but I put this old one for the fun (repeat : for the fun, right ?).

It is labelled 0.1 MF / 500-1500V but actually measure circa 0.243µF but with negligible leaks, so I could use it despite having 2.5x the expected value... I compared with the Vishay-ROE cap and heard no difference, this later cap measuring 0.106µF with negligible (not to say non-measurable) leaks. So let's go for the Mojo Fun  ...

IMHO, cheap caps are not bad at all if you use them correctly, that is to say non-leaky caps used below their rating. Some applications may be critical, indeed, and may require high quality capacitor (silver mica, etc...) with higher ratings and tighter tolerances. But you already guessed it.

The Mojo Sorcery and the Audiophile Craze are another stories... 

A+!

[ElectricDruid]

I use the expensive Wima box caps for my own builds. The reasons why are:

They're reliable
They sound good
They're easily available in close tolerances. Depends on the application - this matters for filters, but not so much for decoupling.
They're cheap compared to the hardware elements of the pedal - so why try and save a few quid on the actual sound-producing parts?!
If I'm going to spend hours soldering, drilling, painting, and building, I want it as good as I can get it - better than boutique. So for the small extra cost, I use top-quality parts. Then I've got a unique, better-than-the-manufactured-units pedal.

HTH,
Tom

[balkanizeyou]

when I make pedals for other people I make sure to use film capacitors for values from 1nF to 1uF, because a lot of people say they sound better than some cheaper caps, so I'm not the one to judge for other people - I use quality components.

But when I make stuff for myself, then for non-polarized types I almost exclusively use cheap ceramic caps, as I can't hear no difference whatsoever  I'm probably tone-deaf, but my tone-deafness saves me some money!

[R.G.]

Sorry to sound like a broken record (flat, round, black thing that spins on a turntable to make sound; obsolete-ish), but until you can say what "better" means, you have no chance of getting "better".

Does it mean:
- higher priced?
- from a company name which is bandied about as "better"?
- smaller?
- bigger?
- sturdier? more manly-looking?
- better colors?
- mentioned in many places on the internet?
- tighter tolerance? (and yep, the next question is "if so, what tolerance is needed?")
- higher voltage?
- more syllables in the parts materials names? more esoteric and harder to find materials?
- not made any more and therefore rarer, and therefore more desirable because they don't make 'em like that any more?
- looks more aesthetically pleasing in the pedal gut shots?
- gathers extra mojo points from people reading the descriptions?
- gathers envy from friends/associates?

Put it another way: you have two caps in front of you on the workbench. One is from a highly acclaimed old-line parts maker, the other is a miniaturized unit from a no-name but huge volume manufacturer. Which is "better"? What would you measure to know?

[thermionix]

Which is "better"?

Unless one of your choices is of such low quality that it is likely to fail, "better" is probably not the best term to use.  Are there audible differences, though?  Sometimes no, sometimes yes.  And if cap A sounds a bit different than cap B, then the one that you prefer the sound of is "better" for your purpose.

[287m]

IMO, the better is ........

in front of me when ready build, i hate waiting
fit in my perf/etchboard layout, i hate doing relayout just because a cap only
and im happy with result

[LightSoundGeometry]

http://smallbear-electronics.mybigcommerce.com/capacitor-silver-mica-rm-special-0047-mf-1kv/

^ what the heck is that thing used for? RM special ..is not rangemaster as in foot pedal RM at 1kv ?