Author Topic: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch  (Read 812 times)

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dave999z

Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« on: December 27, 2017, 11:21:06 AM »
Hello all -

I am getting ready to wire up a true bypass looper pedal.  It will have 14 footswitchable loops.  There will also be one passive loop (no footswitch) between loops 7 and 8 to connect to my amp using the 4-cable method.  (Loops 1-7 will be in front of the amp, loops 8-14 will be in the ampís effects loop.)

However, I would like to make the passive loop moveable, so that I can select whether it is located between loops 6-7, 7-8, or 8-9.  Even just having that much flexibility would be hugely helpful going forward.

In order to wire that, I need a 6P3T switch.  It could either be a rotary, or toggle, or something else.  It needs to be somewhat low profile (especially if itís an external switch because my back panel is a bit cramped, but I could go with an internal ďscrewdriverĒ type rotary or even DIP switch i stead).

If anyone has any suggestions on a quality switch that could work for this purpose, please let me know.  So far Iíve only seen those multideck rotary seitches that are quite large.  Thanks in advance!

(You know, as Iím writing this, Iím thinking an internal DIP switch wherein each physical switch is a DPDT would be quite simple to wire.  Maybe thatís the way to go.)

Cheers.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 11:34:02 AM by dave999z »

dave999z

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2017, 12:13:59 PM »
I think I could just use 3 of these:

https://www.mouser.com/productdetail/switchcraft/46206lrx?qs=ReZUMDdiXnQuv6mmQGGqFg%3D%3D

But Iím not sure how Iíd mount those inside my enclosure?  (i.e., what do I screw them to?)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 12:35:33 PM by dave999z »

EBK

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2017, 01:45:29 PM »
I think I could just use 3 of these:

https://www.mouser.com/productdetail/switchcraft/46206lrx?qs=ReZUMDdiXnQuv6mmQGGqFg%3D%3D

But Iím not sure how Iíd mount those inside my enclosure?  (i.e., what do I screw them to?)
Those switches can be mounted against the inside of your enclosure, with a rectangular hole just big enough for the sliding part and two drill holes for the screws.  The screw heads will be on the outside of the enclosure.  Hope that makes sense.

Hmm... I just reread the question.  Sometimes you can find this kind of switch with tapped mounting holes on those flanges.  Otherwise, you'd have to put a nut on the back, I suppose, if your screw threads aren't right.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 01:56:48 PM by EBK »
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dave999z

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2017, 02:07:35 PM »
Thanks, that makes sense.

I'm also wondering if one of these would work (there are two different types):
http://www.switchcraft.com/Category.aspx?Parent=655

Seems much lower profile.  But the specs provided don't have enough detail.  Not sure if these have DPDT function.  And it seems like it may be possible to configure so that only one switch can be depressed at a time (i.e., if you press one, the previous one pops out), which would be great.

EBK

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2017, 02:38:24 PM »

Take a look at pp. 301-317 of this doc:
www.switchcraft.com/Documents/EDG4.pdf
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dave999z

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2017, 03:01:35 PM »
So helpful...  Thank you!

I think I'm going to make the passive loop assignable to one of five (instead of three) locations:  between either loops 5-6, loops 6-7, loops 7-8, loops 8-9, or loops 9-10.

So it looks like I need a series 6500 switch with "interlock" function.

I'm not sure what is meant by "max 2-C switching per station" versus "max 4-C switching per station" on this page...
http://www.switchcraft.com/productsummary.aspx?Parent=451

I also wish they gave the dimensions.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 03:03:20 PM by dave999z »

EBK

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2017, 03:06:56 PM »
I was a bit confused by the 2-C or 4-C thing too.  I think it just means double-pole or 4-pole.

Actually, p. 307 of that doc describes the contact arrangements.

Dimensions are in the drawings.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 03:14:20 PM by EBK »
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dave999z

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2017, 03:14:00 PM »
I was thinking maybe it means 2 contacts or 4 contacts, but that doesn't make sense for a DPDT switch (which should have 6 contacts).  Hmmm.

But I think you're right, based on this, where it says "Maximum switching per station is 4-C (4PDT)"...
https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/65000-series/35009?mpart=65061K206X&vendor=137

4PDT would require 12 lugs per switch though, and none of the pictures look that way.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 03:23:20 PM by dave999z »

EBK

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2017, 03:23:38 PM »
To add more poles, they just make the switch longer.  P. 309 shows what that looks like (top center of the drawing).

Or, for the leaf switches, they add more leaf switch stacks (e.g., two side-by-side above the actuator and another two side-by-side beneath the actuator).
No affiliations. If I glowingly mention specific merchants or products, it is because I like them without having to be paid to like them.

dave999z

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2017, 03:38:28 PM »
You're right, it's all in there.  (I was just too impatient.)   :icon_redface:

I really would like a 5-station one, but it looks like odd numbers are custom orders.  Since I was waffling between 3 and 5, I'll probably get a 4-station one.  Which would be model number 65041K206.

Thanks very much.  I really appreciate your help.  I think this will work out well.  So I'll basically wire one of the stations between each footswitch.  When the particular switch is "out" it will just jumper (to bypass the station).  When a particular switch is "in", it will route the signal to the passive loop.  In order to connect them all to the passive loop I'll have to daisy chain the "in" positions together (if that makes sense).

rankot

Ampegulator, Bassballs, Bazz Fuss, Bearhug Compressor, Bronx Cheer, Clean Sweep, Demeter Compulator, Electra Distortion, Engineer's Thumb, Hybrid Fuzz, Orange Squeezer, ProCo Rat, Ross Compressor, Valvecaster, 6J6, SFT 2, Ugly Face, more to come...

PRR

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2017, 09:32:52 PM »
> confused by the 2-C or 4-C thing

(Relay and) Switch-geeks have their own lingo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_contacts

http://www.ni.com/white-paper/4453/en/



What you or I call "DPDT" can be called "2 form C contacts". And of course when you are hip, you drop the "form" and "contacts".
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 09:34:57 PM by PRR »

Mark Hammer

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2017, 09:46:42 PM »
Though I didn't see it stated anywhere explicitly, I sort have the sense that the question was asked about a 6P3T, based on the assumption that if a 3PDT switch is used to engage a "loop" of a single effect in a pedal, and provide a status LED, then 3 poles would be required for what the OP had planned.

HOWEVER, the need for a status LED and third switch pole in pedals arises from the fact that the switch itself looks exactly the same, whether in effect or bypass mode.  The LED is there to tell you that, despite the fact that the switch looks exactly as it did a moment ago, it is now in effect mode.

When one uses any sort of switch that provides a visual indication of the state, no status LED is needed, unless the user/ manufacturer has some requirement to be able to discern the switch state from a distance.  If one is close enough to see the switch, its position provides all the state information one needs.  Long-handle toggles and rotary switches fall into this category.

One will need a suitable knob to deliver the "state" information.  Probably the best choice for this task is the venerable chicken-head knob, whose ppointer can be nicely lined up with legending.

I will note in passing that Ibanez used a rotary switch for their UE-400 multi-FX rack unit, calling it the "Insta-patch" system.  IN their case, there were only 5 "stations into which a given effect could be inserted.  You will note there is no status indicator provided, other than the position of the switch. Probably could have used a better knob for the task,

dave999z

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2017, 10:31:56 PM »
Though I didn't see it stated anywhere explicitly, I sort have the sense that the question was asked about a 6P3T, based on the assumption that if a 3PDT switch is used to engage a "loop" of a single effect in a pedal, and provide a status LED, then 3 poles would be required for what the OP had planned.

HOWEVER, the need for a status LED and third switch pole in pedals arises from the fact that the switch itself looks exactly the same, whether in effect or bypass mode.  The LED is there to tell you that, despite the fact that the switch looks exactly as it did a moment ago, it is now in effect mode.

When one uses any sort of switch that provides a visual indication of the state, no status LED is needed, unless the user/ manufacturer has some requirement to be able to discern the switch state from a distance.  If one is close enough to see the switch, its position provides all the state information one needs.  Long-handle toggles and rotary switches fall into this category.

One will need a suitable knob to deliver the "state" information.  Probably the best choice for this task is the venerable chicken-head knob, whose ppointer can be nicely lined up with legending.

I will note in passing that Ibanez used a rotary switch for their UE-400 multi-FX rack unit, calling it the "Insta-patch" system.  IN their case, there were only 5 "stations into which a given effect could be inserted.  You will note there is no status indicator provided, other than the position of the switch. Probably could have used a better knob for the task,


When I was thinking of using a rotary switch, I was not planning an LED indicator.  The passive loop is always active (unless there's nothing plugged into it, in which case that jack just shunts the signal onward).  The only thing the rotary switch would do is set the location of the passive loop.  And that is something I'd change once in a blue moon and do not need any visual indication of the current state.

But to switch a circuit among three locations, you need one pole for the input and output side of each location.  So two poles per location, times three locations, equals 6 poles.  That's why I was looking for a 6P3T rotary switch.

But I decided to use one of the Switchcraft multiple station pushbutton switches (see above) instead.  I think it should work fine.

PRR

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2017, 11:44:07 PM »
> Ibanez used a rotary switch for their UE-400

http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18397/UE400_SVC__pg_08x.jpg

This appears to be a 3 pole 5 throw switch, less than I expected. Pole 3 is for a "mis-set LED"; ignore that and you could do a 2-pole 6-throw, which is a standard rotary.

But I have not absorbed what they are really doing with the buses and switches. Mixed with JFETs but they may just be bypass, not order-switching? Too cold to see straight. Some northern land is sending all their spare cold air here for the next few days.

Chris S

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2017, 08:10:25 AM »
eBay is your friend https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F391277360192 I have used one of these in a pedal. They do disconnect before reconnecting when you switch so youíll get pops if changing the rotary while using the pedal.

Mark Hammer

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2017, 09:10:45 AM »
> Ibanez used a rotary switch for their UE-400

http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18397/UE400_SVC__pg_08x.jpg

This appears to be a 3 pole 5 throw switch, less than I expected. Pole 3 is for a "mis-set LED"; ignore that and you could do a 2-pole 6-throw, which is a standard rotary.

But I have not absorbed what they are really doing with the buses and switches. Mixed with JFETs but they may just be bypass, not order-switching? Too cold to see straight. Some northern land is sending all their spare cold air here for the next few days.
The "miss-set" indication is essentially a failsafe mechanism, such that all effects/stations in the unit are always in series and never in parallel.

The cure for that is attention and conscientiousness.  It lets one drop a pole from the switch.

duck_arse

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2017, 09:14:12 AM »
.......  I have used one of these in a pedal. They do disconnect before reconnecting when you switch so youíll get pops if changing the rotary while using the pedal.

so, Form C, non-shorting, or break-before-make. the non-pop, Form D version could be called make-before-break, non?
"Here they call me Macgyver I can do everything with nothing" - GiovannyS10

"dags, etc" - Slowpoke101

sorry, I must have pushed the wrong button.

Mark Hammer

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2017, 10:14:27 AM »
There is really no difference between a stompswitch and a break-before-make rotary, with respect to avoiding popping.  Just do for the one whatever you do for the other.

dave999z

Re: Need help finding a 6P3T rotary or toggle switch
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2017, 04:12:20 PM »
you could do a 2-pole 6-throw, which is a standard rotary.

I don't see how you could move a loop around using a 2P6T switch.  Well, I see how you could move a loop around, but it would leave the other five non-selected circuits disconnected.  When a given signal is not the one being "interrupted" by the passive loop (which is connected to the two poles), it needs to be jumpered so the signal will still flow through it.  A 2P6T switch would indeed let you move a passive loop around among six different signals, but at any given time the other five signals would be disrupted rather than jumpered.

Unless I'm not understanding the switch functionality (entirely possible).