Help regarding pcb mounted 1/4" jacks

[njkmonty]

Im wanting to fab  a board for a 1590B enclosure, and try for the first time having board mounted input/output jacks.
I currently have a large supply of Cliff jacks  which ive been using for a while on my builds.
But when i use them I have always had to cut the plastic tip ends off and thread the outer plastic circular input section through the drilled enclosure, in order to fit

http://www.cliffuk.co.uk/products/jacksockets/S4.pdf


CL13335U S4A/BBB PC-C stereo switched jack socket. PC mount C.




now ive come across a few examples online on what im trying to achieve.
Im assuming that once the external nut and washers are removed the board can be removed freely from the enclosure?
most of these examples seem to use Neutrik Jacks.

Do i need to change to Neutrik Jacks to achieve this?









where / how do i place the jack in "Eagle" in order for it work properly?  on the internal dotted line? middle edge straight line???


Surely someone here knows what Im dribbling about!!

[antonis]

<off-topic ON>
I wouldn't trust PCB mounted jacks..
<off-topic OFF>

[Ice-9]

There is nothing wrong with PCB mounted jacks as long as the PCB is designed to fit the jacks and enclosure correctly, what needs to be correct is the positioning of the jacks on the PCB if there is too much clearance from the sides of the enclosure then when the nut is tightened into the jack socket it will pull on the socket and can stress the pcb joints. When the fit is nice and snug they work perfectly reliable, most real manufacturers use PCB mounted Jacks so if they were not reliable they would have millions of returned products.

It can take a little bit of practice or real measuring to get the PCB/jack spacing correct as some of the readily available CAD footprints may slightly differ from the sizes of the jacks you buy. It is best to either make your own footprint from the datasheet for the part or take measuerement and adjust to the parts pattern/footprint.

Also remember that the enclosure you are using will have a tapered inside edge which will have a smaller dimension the closer to the top surface so you need to know the measurements at the point of the jacks centre line in the enclosure.

I use the Rean jacks made by Neutrik.

[GGBB]

There is nothing wrong with PCB mounted jacks as long as the PCB is designed to fit the jacks and enclosure correctly, what needs to be correct is the positioning of the jacks on the PCB if there is too much clearance from the sides of the enclosure then when the nut is tightened into the jack socket it will pull on the socket and can stress the pcb joints. When the fit is nice and snug they work perfectly reliable, most real manufacturers use PCB mounted Jacks so if they were not reliable they would have millions of returned products.

It can take a little bit of practice or real measuring to get the PCB/jack spacing correct as some of the readily available CAD footprints may slightly differ from the sizes of the jacks you buy. It is best to either make your own footprint from the datasheet for the part or take measuerement and adjust to the parts pattern/footprint.

Also remember that the enclosure you are using will have a tapered inside edge which will have a smaller dimension the closer to the top surface so you need to know the measurements at the point of the jacks centre line in the enclosure.

I use the Rean jacks made by Neutrik.

Take note of that first paragraph - the fit has to be near perfect to avoid problems. That level of perfection is easily manufactured but for me at least out of the realm of diy possible. It's the enclosure that is the main problem - the angled sidewalls create a twisting effect that can't be avoided without angled shims or a modification to the enclosure wall. I don't recommend PCB mounted jack's on opposite sides of the board with angled sidewalls.

[ElectricDruid]

Take note of that first paragraph - the fit has to be near perfect to avoid problems. That level of perfection is easily manufactured but for me at least out of the realm of diy possible. It's the enclosure that is the main problem - the angled sidewalls create a twisting effect that can't be avoided without angled shims or a modification to the enclosure wall. I don't recommend PCB mounted jack's on opposite sides of the board with angled sidewalls.

How near is "near perfect"? It's clearly within the realm of possibility, since it's so widely done. If you're getting a PCB manufactured, all you need to know is the relevant dimension - it isn't hard, but perhaps it might take a couple of shots. Once you know, you're there, and there's nothing to it.

I used to design firmware for a well-known boutique builder who did pedals this way - no problems with any of theirs, and I saw several orototypes. They also fitted board-mounted pots. I like the style since it reduces off board wiring (one of the biggest points of failure) to the minimum.

Tom

[davent]

I've read you avoid an issue with the angled sidewalls of the enclosure by soldering the jacks to the pcb after the jacks are mounted to the enclosure. Mount the jacks to the enclosure, drop the accurately fitted pcb onto the jacks, solder.

In all the examples pictured the jacks on the top of the board, so no issues soldering.
dave

[ElectricDruid]

Yeah, that's a good idea. You could design a jack footprint with slightly slot-shaped (or over-sized) holes too, so that you'd got a little bit of wiggle room if you wanted.

T.

[njkmonty]

Yeah, that's a good idea. You could design a jack footprint with slightly slot-shaped (or over-sized) holes too, so that you'd got a little bit of wiggle room if you wanted.

I've read you avoid an issue with the angled sidewalls of the enclosure by soldering the jacks to the pcb after the jacks are mounted to the enclosure. Mount the jacks to the enclosure, drop the accurately fitted pcb onto the jacks, solder.

In all the examples pictured the jacks on the top of the board, so no issues soldering.
dave

thats exactly what i had in mind!  thanks everyone for your input,
my only question is now

nmj6hcd2  these should fit in a 1590B?

being 26.53mm long x 2  = 53.06mm  (the body of the jack)
and i measured in internal dimensions of the 1590B im using approx 55-56mm  these should work?

I just assumed that all pcb jacks were a similar size and didnt realise that my current Cliff offerings are larger!

[GGBB]

It's clearly within the realm of possibility, since it's so widely done

The manufacturers don't do it because it's better, they do it because it's cheaper. And they only need it to last for the length of the warranty. I think we're tempted to build the same way we see production pedals built because we want to make our stuff look "professional" - but that doesn't necessarily mean better.

[vigilante397]

I think we're tempted to build the same way we see production pedals built because we want to make our stuff look "professional" - but that doesn't necessarily mean better.

bool mindStatus()
{
   whoa = mindBlown(thatQuote);
   return whoa;
}


   

[Ice-9]

It's clearly within the realm of possibility, since it's so widely done

The manufacturers don't do it because it's better, they do it because it's cheaper. And they only need it to last for the length of the warranty. I think we're tempted to build the same way we see production pedals built because we want to make our stuff look "professional" - but that doesn't necessarily mean better.

Not true at all, yes it is cheaper to make as no time wasted on cutting and soldering wires but if manufacturers make pedals with PCB mounted jacks and the jack sockets fail after 12 months then there reputation would be worth nothing.
The fact is these pedals with pcb jacks can last years and decades just like any other method of mounting jacks can.

All the pedals I make and sell have PCB mounted jacks and in the last 6 years of production I have had Zero jack failures. It is well within the capability for any DIY'er to drill enclosures accurately without the need for expensive tooling.

[thermionix]

It depends how they're used.  On a pedalboard, where there isn't much plugging/unplugging or cable tugging, board-mounted jacks may hold up well enough.  On something that gets dragged around at punk rock shows, the solder joints will eventually crack.  It's a very common amp repair for me, the Fender HotRod/Blues series are very popular around here.  Personally I don't board-mount any electro-mechanical parts in anything I build, though in some cases I see board-mounted pots more as a pot-mounted board, as long as the pots are still panel-mounted.  If that makes sense.

[vigilante397]

... the solder joints will eventually crack.  It's a very common amp repair for me, the Fender HotRod/Blues series are very popular around here.

That was actually the very first amp repair I ever did, before I even joined this forum. I was playing my Fender "red-knob" Super 60 at a punk rock show and right at the end of the last song my guitar cut out. I was afraid everything melted from intense punk rock (like any normal guitarist) but opened it up to find broken solder joints on the board-mounted jack. Put in an open jack since it's all I had lying around and the amp ran great ... until I flipped it to get into the "boutique" world

[GGBB]

The manufacturers don't do it because it's better, they do it because it's cheaper. And they only need it to last for the length of the warranty. I think we're tempted to build the same way we see production pedals built because we want to make our stuff look "professional" - but that doesn't necessarily mean better.

Not true at all, yes it is cheaper to make as no time wasted on cutting and soldering wires but if manufacturers make pedals with PCB mounted jacks and the jack sockets fail after 12 months then there reputation would be worth nothing.
The fact is these pedals with pcb jacks can last years and decades just like any other method of mounting jacks can.

I'm not clear on how what you stated makes what I stated "not true at all." Would you kindly elaborate?

[Ice-9]

The manufacturers don't do it because it's better, they do it because it's cheaper. And they only need it to last for the length of the warranty. I think we're tempted to build the same way we see production pedals built because we want to make our stuff look "professional" - but that doesn't necessarily mean better.

Not true at all, yes it is cheaper to make as no time wasted on cutting and soldering wires but if manufacturers make pedals with PCB mounted jacks and the jack sockets fail after 12 months then there reputation would be worth nothing.
The fact is these pedals with pcb jacks can last years and decades just like any other method of mounting jacks can.

I'm not clear on how what you stated makes what I stated "not true at all." Would you kindly elaborate?

I say that because you mention manufacturers do it because it is chaeper and they also only need it to last until the warrany period is over

Your first point on cheaper to make, OK I can get that, but your second point on only lasting to the end of the warranty period... well as I said, no maker would do that for the the fact their reputation would be worth nothing. Pretty clear I thought.

[ElectricDruid]

It depends how they're used.  On a pedalboard, where there isn't much plugging/unplugging or cable tugging, board-mounted jacks may hold up well enough.  On something that gets dragged around at punk rock shows, the solder joints will eventually crack.  It's a very common amp repair for me, the Fender HotRod/Blues series are very popular around here.  Personally I don't board-mount any electro-mechanical parts in anything I build, though in some cases I see board-mounted pots more as a pot-mounted board, as long as the pots are still panel-mounted.  If that makes sense.

I think if the jacks are stressing the board, what's failed is the mechanical attachment. Soldering the jacks onto the PCB is not a replacement for a good solid nut holding them into the panel. If that nut is loose or absent, then of course the solder will break. Solder isn't a mechanical fixing method, it's an electrical connection method. Similarly with board-mounted pots. If you don't have the pots well fixed into the panel, then you're putting torque on them every time you turn them and the joints will definitely fail sooner or later.

In my view, this isn't a fault of the method, it's just poor implementation (no lock washer?) or sloppy maintenance (tighten the jacks up if you notice they're loose!!). I've seen plenty of open-frame jacks with wires broken off because the jack was loose and wiggled about or even span right round in its mounting hole.

Tom

[GGBB]

no maker would do that for the the fact their reputation would be worth nothing. Pretty clear I thought.

Not clear - else I wouldn't have asked. Thanks for explaining your opinion.

[GGBB]

I think if the jacks are stressing the board, what's failed is the mechanical attachment. Soldering the jacks onto the PCB is not a replacement for a good solid nut holding them into the panel. If that nut is loose or absent, then of course the solder will break. Solder isn't a mechanical fixing method, it's an electrical connection method. Similarly with board-mounted pots. If you don't have the pots well fixed into the panel, then you're putting torque on them every time you turn them and the joints will definitely fail sooner or later.

In my view, this isn't a fault of the method, it's just poor implementation (no lock washer?) or sloppy maintenance (tighten the jacks up if you notice they're loose!!). I've seen plenty of open-frame jacks with wires broken off because the jack was loose and wiggled about or even span right round in its mounting hole.

If the "good solid nut" is what's supporting the PCB, then it's also stressing the joints because the PCB s held on to the "good solid nut" attachment by the solder joints. That's leaving the gate with a design flaw in my opinion. On top of that, when you have PCB mounted jacks on opposite sides in an enclosure with angled sidewalls, you have even more stress because each of the "good solid nuts" is twisting the board in the opposite direction of the other - unless you modify the mount somehow to avoid that stress, which is not an easy DIY task. Wire connections also have potential problems, but jacks connected that way are no more susceptible to loosening than PCB mounted jacks, and they only stress the solder joints by the weight of the wire (assuming the PCB is secured and does not move). PCB jacks have the additional stress of insertion/removal along with board movement if the jack-enclosure mount is what's supporting the PCB (also applies to PCB mounted pots). All of these problems are probably minor enough that you can get many years out of pedal with PCB mounted jacks if it rarely leaves the pedal board. I'm less confident about the lifespan of one that is road-abused on an ongoing basis.

I have a few pedals with PCB jacks on angled sidewalls. One is an old Yamaha Chorus - it has modified enclosure sidewalls to keep the nuts perpendicular to the board. The others are EHX nano pedals. The PCBs in those have a slight arch to them because of the jacks and the sidewall angle - the tighter they get, the greater the arch. I did some searching to find pedal gut shots of various brands who have great reputations - Analogman, Keeley, Fulltone, JHS, and even Wampler don't do that - they either don't use PCB jacks or use non-slanted enclosures. Even BOSS doesn't do that - they use perpendicular sidewalls. (Think whatever you want about BOSS pedals, but you can't knock their reliability.) It wasn't an exhaustive search so there may be some exceptions, but maybe if we want to really make our builds look professional we should follow Analogman etc. and keep the jacks off the PCB. I guess in this case what we sometimes think is the "professional" way to do things is really just the "mass produced" way of doing things. YMMV.

[Rixen]

..and if you are going to PCB mount jacks, plated through holes will prove much more reliable..

[thermionix]

I think if the jacks are stressing the board, what's failed is the mechanical attachment. Soldering the jacks onto the PCB is not a replacement for a good solid nut holding them into the panel. If that nut is loose or absent, then of course the solder will break.

But look at the jacks and pots we're often talking about.  In the case of the Fender amps I mentioned, the jacks have plastic bushings.  That means they can't be torqued down well without damage.  So they will undoubtedly work loose, and the only thing holding the jack to the PCB will be the solder joints.  The potmetal bushings of 16mm Alpha pots (for example) are only marginally better than plastic.  By contrast, think of an open-frame Switchcraft jack, you can torque those down to a degree that they will NEVER work loose under normal use.  I don't know if you can even break one of those bushings if you tried, with one hand and a regular nutdriver.