Weak Sounding Orange Squeezer....

[Paul Marossy]

Just to clarify, it sounds fine all by itself...

OK, I have a Orange Squeezer clone on my pedalboard. It is before any of my distortion pedals. It sounds fine with my Boss Metal Zone, but with my TS808 clone and my Blue Clipper clone, they sound very whimpy and anemic - almost no distortion.

So, I made use of Anderton's impedance measuring device this morning and measured the input impedances of all four of these pedals. Here is what I measured:

Orange Squeezer - 382K
Blue Clipper - 250K
TS808 - 280K
Metal Zone - 446K

So, if I remember what I read at GEO correctly, the Orange Squeezer is trying to drive two effects with a low impedence - the TS808 and the Blue Clipper, and that is why they sound whimpy, right? And to solve this problem, I put the compressor after those two pedals? (I don't want to build buffers at the inputs on them)

BTW, Anderton's impedance tester is very handy. Build one!

[BillyJ]

Is there a link to that Anderton project?
That sounds very useful.
Thanks!!!!!

[bwanasonic]

I just checked my DIY Orange Squeezer into my TS9 (with 808 mods), and it worked fine. Then tried it with a Boss BD2, RAT2 and GT2. All worked fine. I built the OS with *stock* values. You didn't mention  the output impedance of the OS, but this is what would effect the pedals after it.  Also the 280k sounds low for TS input? I thought it was around 500k?

Kerry M

[RDV]

If one uses perf to build a Squeezer then you can buffer the output with the unused side of the OA.

Just a thought

RDV

[Paul Marossy]

"I just checked my DIY Orange Squeezer into my TS9 (with 808 mods), and it worked fine. Then tried it with a Boss BD2, RAT2 and GT2. All worked fine. I built the OS with *stock* values. You didn't mention the output impedance of the OS, but this is what would effect the pedals after it. Also the 280k sounds low for TS input? I thought it was around 500k?"

I built my OS clone from the one at GGG, using the stock values. Maybe my output needs to be a lot hotter than how I have it set now(the 10K trimpot)? It seems to already have plenty of gain, it will distort a little bit with my neck humbucker.

How do you measure output impedance? Maybe the OS has a high output impedence trying to feed a lower input impedance?

(Anderton's test takes advantage of the fact that impedance and resistance are roughly the same in his method of measuring impedance. It's basically determining the input resistance to ground. The numbers I gave earlier indicate roughly what the input impedance would be using Anderton's method, but not conclusively what they actually are. It's supposed to be pretty close, though.)

[bwanasonic]

How do you measure output impedance? Maybe the OS has a high output impedence trying to feed a lower input impedance?

I don't know how to measure output impedance, and don't want to give the mistaken impression I actually know what I'm talking about in regards to input/output impedance. But by design I think the boxes in question should behave together, so I'm not sure what the problem is in this case. Maybe it is  just a matter of tweaking the *volume* pot . It's worth making this an external control if you now have it as a trimpot.  It can give a pretty good kick in the pants to the next stage or your amp input when cranked a bit. The distortion or *grit* might be more a case of humbuckers overdriving the input of the OS, rather than the output being hot?

Kerry M

[Paul Marossy]

Yeah, I think you're right. The humbuckers are overwhelming the input on the OS. I'll fiddle with it some and see what the results are. That's the only thing I can think of that could be causing this to happen. I still think the different input impedances may have something to with it as well.

[Paul Marossy]

Well, last night I tried moving the OS behind my Blue Clipper. That worked like I expected it to, but I got major noise/hiss with that combo, even with the OS bypassed and the Blue Clipper on.

I think it's got to be impedence problems... it may also have something to do with the amount of effects I have on my pedal board, a total of 10 other things in the signal path....

Maybe I need to build a buffer between the OS and the effects following it.

[smoguzbenjamin]

couldn't you just pop in an OA at the end of the OS?

just my 2 cents.  

[Paul Marossy]

What do you mean by an "OA"?

This sure is quirky! My Black Cat OD-1 doesn't mind having the OS in front of it...  If I have my Metal Zone between the OS and the Blue Clipper, it works fine with low noise, but the TS808 don't like it no matter what I do. I know that the Boss Metal Zone is not a true bypass pedal, I'm sure that it must have input and output buffers built into it, which must be helping it out, depending on how I place my pedals in series. Maybe this is one place where running parallel effects would be of some help?

This has been an interesting experience, I have never had any problems like this with anything I have built thus far (maybe 30 or so projects).
I guess there's a first time for everything...  :?

[Mark Hammer]

I'm just guess here, but it may be that the envelope follower section is not really all that well isolated from the output and that interacts with other pedals in quirky ways.

One thing you can try is to build the modded version that I offered up (posted at GGG).  This provides for a bit more output level (x2 or so), but also isolates the envelope follower section from the pedal output by sticking another gain stage in between.  The output level control is also isolated from the pedal output.

One other suggestion I might make.  In the drawing, it shows the brightness adjust pot/cap in parallel with the 10k fixed resistor in series with the level pot.  Move the end of the cap from the input lug of the level pot to the wiper, and up the brightness adjust potfrom 10k to maybe 25-50k.  That oughta work better.

[Paul Marossy]

You know Mark, I think that your hypothesis might just be what is happening here. That would seem to explain it's unpredictable behaviour. I was just thinking a little earlier that it seems that it wasn't really designed to be in series with other pedals, looking at the design of the original...  

[bwanasonic]

I was just thinking a little earlier that it seems that it wasn't really designed to be in series with other pedals, looking at the design of the original...  

The only problem with that idea is when I read your post I tried my OS with every other pedal I own ( in series) and it worked fine. I couldn't find a combination of pedals that didn't work with it.  :?:

Kerry M

[Paul Marossy]

Well, I must be an idiot then and somehow built the OS at GGG wrong, even though I built it exactly per the layout there.

[bwanasonic]

Well, I must be an idiot then and somehow built the OS at GGG wrong, even though I built it exactly per the layout there.

Whoah, whoah! Easy there!  :shock: Just was saying if it was problem with the basic design of the OS I would think I'd get the same results. There are a lot of variables, and I thought it might be useful to know not all OSs behave like that when used with other pedals.

Kerry M

[Paul Marossy]

Sorry, I'm just in a bad mood this morning.

How many pedals are in your signal path? It seems to make a big difference where I put that OS in my chain of effects... but I have 10 other things on my board, and I am using a Boss Power Supply w/ Master Bypass Switch (PSM-5), and it is one of several things in the loop between the send and return. So, in this case, it may not like being in one spot but be OK with being in an another.

Just in case anyone's curious, here is the routing of the pedals on my pedal board:

Guitar---> PSM-5 send ---> tuner ---> wah---> DOD FX-17 volume pedal ---> Orange Squeezer clone ---> Black Cat OD-1 clone ---> Boss Metal Zone ---> TS808 clone ---> Boss DD-5 Digital Delay ---> Boss Super Chorus ---> EA Tremolo ---> PSM-5 return -----> guitar amp

With the PSM-5, you can bypass all of the pedals in the loop, something I never use, but is available if I want it.

[Paul Marossy]

Darn double posting.