Anyone tried OC76 trannys in a fuzz face circuit?

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello-
     Not responding to any post in particular............
  I know for a fact that the 2-tranny Vox Tonebender was in use years before the Fuzz Face came out.  One reason being I saw them [and used them].  The second reason being I knew lots of English guitar players who recorded with them in the studio from around '61 to '65.  Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page were only the tip of the iceberg as far as being users of this pedal.........there are tons of records from the early '60's  [in England and in Europe] that have TB's on 'em.   [Big Jim Sullivan was one of the studio guys that used one.]   The only reason  the Fuzz Face is so popular is because of Hendrix..........and even HE stopped using  the FF circuit in '68! [Roger Mayer was on the scene by then.]
By the way, most facts are passed down by the experience of people who were there and observed things first hand, NOT by what is read in books 30 years down the line.   [Usually written by somebody who wasn't even born when everything was going down!  Of course there are exceptions.]
All of the older circuits were designed to sound a certain way  [often because of the input of certain guitarists like Page or Beck] and do sound that way because of the trannys used.  Any change of tranny type alters the sound and can easily be heard with comparison.   Can you get a TB to sound good and useable with different trannys [even silicons]??  Sure, but it won't sound like a real TB.
All the technology in the world will never make up for a tin ear!
Brian.

[Jay Doyle]

Ammscray wrote:

"...if someone had taught me everything along the way, I wouldn't know a 1/4 of what I do know now... "

Now THAT is a statement that would make Yogi Berra proud.  :lol:

Then he said:

"As soon as you or anybody comes up with devices that sound as good as the original OC's, per esempio, I'll be the first to de-obsess...I guess if somebody doesn't hear a difference, then there isn't one...I for one, do... "

I just can't buy this. Transistors are all made the same, but in the end the actual, manufactured, real world pieces were WIDELY dissimilar in many characteristics. This makes them as variable within the same part number as they would be to another part number. You can find OC's that sound like NKT's that sound like 2N404s but that is because the internal characteristics of the physical construction are similar.

My question to Ammscray is if he were to be put in a position of telling the difference, without looking at the internal circuit, of two FFs, one with OCs, one with NKTs, if he could pick them out. I am very sceptical.

Ammscray said:

"The FF problems stemmed from the inconsistent and crappy NKT275's, not from the circuit..."

Here is my point exactly, ALL Ge's were inconsistant and crappy, why do you think that there was a big push to silicon? Because of the larger voltage drop? No. Because they could be manufactured to tighter specs and not have the varying characteristics, it is the same reason that MOSFETs took over JFETs, similar if not better characteristics without such a huge production spread.

But beyond that the circuit is a problem as well, it relys on aspects of the transistor to bias itself instead of biasing properly no matter what transistor is in there. This is poor design. It is perfectly feasable that a terrible sounding fuzz face right off of the line had perfectly useable Ge transistors in it, but because the gain was too high, or low, or the leakage too high, or not enough to bias, it sounded bad. Thus the reason Steve at SB sells pretested sets, the design is so poor that you have to have JUST THE RIGHT gains to make it sound good.

Ammscray said:
"I also don't think that most of the guys chasing down vintage part numbers are just sitting there staring at them wondering what to do...they went to the trouble because they knew it was worth it in the end and it made the whole episode and the final result more enjoyable... "

They went through the trouble because they, falsely, believe that just having the right part will make the circuit sound great.

For example, almost all of us have tried a circuit out only to get that horrible "transistor gating" sound. Now by your method, instead of thinking, "Wow, that sounds terrible, what is wrong?", I would just pop out the transistors to swap them out with others, most likely getting the same result and swapping transistors until one of them was either faulty or out of spec enough to be useful in the circuit, but will the sound be good? No, because the circuit has an error which is misbiasing a transistor somewhere.

Now if you KNOW why a transistor would gate, by educating yourself, you would know that the transistor is misbiased and therefore either a) something is wrong with the original circuit, b) the transistor is faulty or c) something is wrong with MY circuit, a solder bridge, a wrong value resistor etc. Swapping out the transistors will never get you to a good result and will only end up frustrating the new.

No, this isn't rocket science, it is fairly simple engineering that EE's usually forget after their first year, but ignoring the actual SCIENCE behind it ignores the REASONS that make any circuit sound good or not.

Regards,

Jay Doyle

[Bluesgeetar]

:cry:  Well I see that me the little newbie has already got fights started with my first couple of posts.  I wish you guys wouldn't fight.  Now in the future when people see my ID "Bluesgeetar"  they will pass me by and not read my my cries for help.  They'll see my ID and say, "Oh no that is the trouble maker guy!  That punk!"  and I didn't even ask that kind of question to get me in this light.  You pedal guru guys are getting me into trouble and I really need the help.  Please don't use my questions to get fights started.  And yes I will try to learn R.G.s Germ test thing.  I will say it seems written well above my level of understanding.  I have tried to read it a couple of times and get a migraine half way through.  I wish R.G. would dumb it down a little for the beginners.  All those math calculations are way over my head. :wink:

[brian wenz]

--Hello Bluesgeetar--
     I understand what you're saying........a bunch of book-learning in the beginning is hard to digest.  
Opinions mean little,  so I just try to go with simple facts.  It seems that  sometimes years of experience is always clashing with the "opinions".
If I were putting 76's in a FF circuit I'd probably be ready to tweak at least the Q2 collector resistor..........maybe more.......to get everything biased  in an "ear pleasing" manner.   Of course, like I touched on before, "correct" may not be what YOU want it to sound like.Good luck!
Brian.

[Ammscray]

"...if someone had taught me everything along the way, I wouldn't know a 1/4 of what I do know now... "

"Now THAT is a statement that would make Yogi Berra proud.  :lol:"

Unfortunately I couldn't find the appropriate emoticon for the gesture I was looking for...  you obviously didn't get the point...

Then he said:

"As soon as you or anybody comes up with devices that sound as good as the original OC's, per esempio, I'll be the first to de-obsess...I guess if somebody doesn't hear a difference, then there isn't one...I for one, do... "

"I just can't buy this. Transistors are all made the same, but in the end the actual, manufactured, real world pieces were WIDELY dissimilar in many characteristics. This makes them as variable within the same part number as they would be to another part number. You can find OC's that sound like NKT's that sound like 2N404s but that is because the internal characteristics of the physical construction are similar"

If you think that all transistors are/were made the same way then I don't even know who I'm talking to, that's like saying all tubes are the same too...in other words, "yeah Ammscray, go ahead and put those crappy sovteks in your vintage Marshall, they're the same as the old Mullards, you'll just have to tweak your circuit to set the bias...you'll get great tone too"...NOT  :?

Comapring the old OC devices to the much more inferior Newmarket (NKT) parts is like homeade pizza compared to Dominos...the NKT's, like the AC devices, are known to be very noisy and thin-sounding with a very high faulty rate...out of 100 AC128's you'd be lucky to get 20 good ones...and calling them "good" would be an insult to truly good transistors...

In the last batch of 100 OC44's that I use for my Derangemaster pedal there were only 8 devices that didn't meet my standards, they were a little too noisy but still useable...but they're all the same right?? I would rather find the right tranny or tubes for a pedal or amp than have to tweak or re-vamp my circuit to use the part...that makes no sense to me...like bringing the lake to the horse... :?  In shootouts with my Derangemaster and several of the other RM clones, we have yet to hear
another one that sounds exactly like an original...I guess I must be doing something right...

There is also something to be said for different components being made under different conditions with different materials in different places...the "Stradivarius" theory...even though Amperex ECC83's made in Holland and the UK were the same tube made the same way, they sound different to each other...I just don't understand where you're coming from...

"My question to Ammscray is if he were to be put in a position of telling the difference, without looking at the internal circuit, of two FFs, one with OCs, one with NKTs, if he could pick them out. I am very sceptical"

In my own listening environment using my own gear yes definitely I would...I rely on my ears for a living...whether it's playing, recording, engineering or whatever I'm doing, maybe I hear more subtle differences, who knows and who cares, I hear it that's all that matters...

Cranked up onstage, maybe not with the germs, but I could definitely tell if you were playing through my silicon VS. the germ version...but I would hope most could...

Ammscray said:

"The FF problems stemmed from the inconsistent and crappy NKT275's, not from the circuit..."

"Here is my point exactly, ALL Ge's were inconsistant and crappy, why do you think that there was a big push to silicon? Because of the larger voltage drop? No. Because they could be manufactured to tighter specs and not have the varying characteristics, it is the same reason that MOSFETs took over JFETs, similar if not better characteristics without such a huge production spread"

Again, maybe you don't have much experience with really good germaniums if you're comparing all these crappy devices to the OC's...a good percentage of technological advances come from the needs and wants of the military because of their huge need for better electronics, but just because something is new and improved or more economical doesn't make it better! Especially for guys like us...how many guys do I know that won't even touch IC's in their circuits...Maybe you just have to do a little more work to find what you want but it's worth it to me to do that...

"But beyond that the circuit is a problem as well, it relys on aspects of the transistor to bias itself instead of biasing properly no matter what transistor is in there. This is poor design. It is perfectly feasable that a terrible sounding fuzz face right off of the line had perfectly useable Ge transistors in it, but because the gain was too high, or low, or the leakage too high, or not enough to bias, it sounded bad. Thus the reason Steve at SB sells pretested sets, the design is so poor that you have to have JUST THE RIGHT gains to make it sound good"

Yeah, that was possible with anything made assembly-line style at the time...but in my experience there were as many good sounding FF's that had mismatched trannys as ones that didn't sound good...same with Marshalls and tubes...and in most cases you swap the trannys and you were fine...but what about the rest of the components, the pots, the layout and lead dress of the builder? The best trannys in the world alone won't make the pedal fly if the rest isn't in order...

Ammscray said:
"I also don't think that most of the guys chasing down vintage part numbers are just sitting there staring at them wondering what to do...they went to the trouble because they knew it was worth it in the end and it made the whole episode and the final result more enjoyable... "

"They went through the trouble because they, falsely, believe that just having the right part will make the circuit sound great"

Maybe that's someone you know, nobody I know...anybody I know who takes the time to seek out and find the good NOS stuff is also not a wishful thinker and is building the pedal correctly and knows what he's doing...again I'm only speaking for people I know...and if the guy was beginner, well at least he'll have the good stuff to work with when he does learn a bit more...

"For example, almost all of us have tried a circuit out only to get that horrible "transistor gating" sound. Now by your method, instead of thinking, "Wow, that sounds terrible, what is wrong?", I would just pop out the transistors to swap them out with others, most likely getting the same result and swapping transistors until one of them was either faulty or out of spec enough to be useful in the circuit, but will the sound be good? No, because the circuit has an error which is misbiasing a transistor somewhere"

I'm speaking of circuits that are working and stable and not some kind of experiment or project, but I assumed that's what you were talking about too...obviously only an idiot would sit there and sub parts mindlessly...grasping a little bit?

"Now if you KNOW why a transistor would gate, by educating yourself, you would know that the transistor is misbiased and therefore either a) something is wrong with the original circuit, b) the transistor is faulty or c) something is wrong with MY circuit, a solder bridge, a wrong value resistor etc. Swapping out the transistors will never get you to a good result and will only end up frustrating the new"

Again, if the circuit is right, and the tranny is right, the you should be in fat city...I've never had to tweak any pedal to accomodate a tranny...I find the right part which sits the way I want it to...most of my clients want their vintage pedals looking and sounding stock with the least mods or tweaks as possible...what's wrong with that??

No, this isn't rocket science, it is fairly simple engineering that EE's usually forget after their first year, but ignoring the actual SCIENCE behind it ignores the REASONS that make any circuit sound good or not.

Regards,

Jay Doyle[/quote]

You know, we've had simliar threads like this, and I'm just wondering why some of you get so defensive over this?? It's like you're so quick to sway the new kid away from NOS or whatever and it makes absolutely no sense...so OK if you don't don't want to use the NOS stuff, or you don't have any or whatever, don't tell the new kid that it's a waste of time and that the OC's sound the same as the others BECAUSE THEY DON'T, it's as simple as that...

The reason people collect old things is because in most cases they're made better....what used to be made in Denmark or Germany or wherever is now made somewhere else under horrible conditions with slave-labor or whatever...let's face it, quality has gone right down the flush...I opt for the real deal because it's a challenge to get it sometimes and the payoff is worth it to me...and judging by the number of inquiries I've gotten for old trannys in the last few years I know I'm not the only one...what this thread had taught me is that from now on I think we should show our age so we all know who we're talking to...I'd hate to be talking to somebody who's 15 and thinking they were 50...I'll start: 42

peace brother, may it serve you well

[gez]

Gez, seven and a half (nearly eight!)

[gez]

I wasn't having a go with the above post Ammscray, just trying to point out that in the grand scheme of things bits of silicon and plastic aren't really that important.  We all have different needs and different takes on things...live and let live (damn, another bloody cliche!)

All the best

gez