Can you really hear the difference with metal film caps?

[cb]

I just A/B'ed a bunch of my distortion pedals (Ibanez, Boss, etc.) and they all generally have this cardboard box, lo-fi sound going on.

I have tried a couple of mods on my TS-9 to try to improve the fidelity (more bass, more treble) and I guess the bass part is okay, but the 'treble' mod just seemed to boost the upper mid range - still lo-fi sounding.

So now I'm ready to try what I had dismissed heretofore as merely hear-say & voodoo - change the caps in the signal path to metal film.

I'm just wondering if anyone has done this (any-other-cap to metal film) and heard a significant improvement?

[Thomas P.]

Don't you mean metal film 'resistors'?

I generaly believe that it doesn't has a great influence to the sound. I mean if you have tantalum caps in the signal chain then change it. But ordinary foil caps wont make a big difference in a distortion device.

Therefore got to AMZ - he has a nice little game in the lab notebook. There you can decide if you can hear the difference :wink:

[mikeb]

All other things being equal (and this is quite hard, means capacitance and ESR must be the same) there won't be any change in sound between electrolytic and metal films (and,yes, there are such caps). Despite claims to the contrary, no-one has managed to make a valid case for this change yet (although metal film caps do last longer than electrolytics).

Mike

[ExpAnonColin]

Despite claims to the contrary, no-one has managed to make a valid case for this change yet (although metal film caps do last longer than electrolytics).

Mike

Well, I think RG had some decent points somewhere or another, but IMHO every claim has it's disclaim, if you know what I mean.  I personally don't think it should make a difference or that it does make a difference.

-Colin

[Eric H]

but the 'treble' mod just seemed to boost the upper mid range - still lo-fi sounding.

So now I'm ready to try what I had dismissed heretofore as merely hear-say & voodoo - change the caps in the signal path to metal film.

OK, whether, or not the difference between cap-types is audible, the difference is very subtle, at best, and won't accomplish what you're looking for. It sounds to me like you aren't happy with the TS9, and should consider a circuit with a different design altogether. The Blue Magic is one suggestion.

-Eric H

[bwanasonic]

Kind of funny talking about *fidelity* with a TS-9, as it is a distortion device, but I know what you mean. You might be happier with a Sparkle Drive, as you can mix some of the clean signal back in. I would think changing opamps  would have a greater effect on *fidelity* . Maybe try a Burr-Brown 2134 or 2604? There might be other factors in your signal chain you need to address, or maybe the TS9 is just not the effect you want? Have you ever heard a HiFi sounding TS9? I haven't, and I've been using them since they came out.

Kerry M

[Peter Snowberg]

All you have to do is spend some time building tube amps and you'll hear that without question, different cap types influence sound. The effect is less obvious in low voltage pedals, but it's there none the less. Voltage and capacitance are only two of the measurements of a cap. You also have such things as ESR, ESL, a couple types of leakage, and more. Some of these numbers are quite frequency dependant. Filtering effects also occur parasitically and as a result of the circuit the cap is in and the components surrounding it.

Can you hear the difference between low ESL metal/film and higher ESL metalized film? I can, and my ears were sacrificed to the amplifier gods long ago.

Here’s one place to start reading. http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html

Take care,
-Peter

[travissk]

I hear something... whether it's the fact that I'm really hearing something or I just want to hear something I don't know, but for me it's well worth the extra cost for poly film caps I have never built amps though, so maybe there's a huge difference there.

I can't really hear a difference when using metal film resistors over carbon comps, even though many people say it's there, especially in terms of noise. Perhaps if I put them on a switch or A/B'ed two almost identical pedals I would notice something.

[mikeb]

All you have to do is spend some time building tube amps and you'll hear that without question, different cap types influence sound. The effect is less obvious in low voltage pedals, but it's there none the less. Voltage and capacitance are only two of the measurements of a cap. You also have such things as ESR, ESL, a couple types of leakage, and more.

This is exactly the point I'm making - it *isn't* the material that makes the difference, it is just the inherently different characteristics that do. If you take caps made from different materials, with exactly the same characteristics (capacitance, ESR, leakage etc), they will sound the same; if you take caps made from the same materials, but with different characteristics, yes, they will 'sound' different. The problem is that it is impossible to make a direct comparison between caps of different materials but with exactly the same characteristics; as soon as you change the material the physical characteristics are also changed, so this becomes a completely theoretical argument. It is like saying - if I substitute in a cap with different capacitance, or different ESR, will it make a difference to the sound? Of course, the answer is yes!

Mike

[aron]

I will say it (along with Peter).

Actually I think I've said it before.

If you take the time to change all the ceramic caps in the signal path to film, I bet you WILL hear a difference. OTOH does it really matter whether someone else thinks they can hear it or not?

You are the only person that it matters to. If you can hear or feel a difference, then do it.

In general, I rarely use ceramic caps now. I use them only for a certain "sound" in critical places if I feel they might help.

Finally, I like the green film caps despite some people not liking them. I have never had problems with them and I design around their sound.

[Peter Snowberg]

This is exactly the point I'm making - it *isn't* the material that makes the difference, it is just the inherently different characteristics that do. If you take caps made from different materials, with exactly the same characteristics (capacitance, ESR, leakage etc), they will sound the same; if you take caps made from the same materials, but with different characteristics, yes, they will 'sound' different. ...
Mike

As Aron spoke of, ceramic is one material where it is the material that makes a difference. While I must agree that construction is a huge part of the tonal recipe, ceramics display the piezoelectric effect where mylar does not.

The XY traces on Steve Bench's site clearly show that tantalums respond differently depending on the bias voltage across them. Mylay doesn't do that so again I would have to argue that it's the material rather than the construction.

I don't have anything I can point to to explain the higher ESR at higher frequencies with aluminum electrolytics, but if you build an amp using BIG mylar caps in place of the electrolytics, you won't hear that HF loss that will affect the same circuit built wih Al electros. Of course that could be a function of another parameter, but water and electricity have an ability to react where dry polyester film won't. I wouldn't discount the posibility that the dielectric there plays a direct role too.

I've also been fond of the Xicon mylar film caps because they're small, stable, cheap, and to my damaged ears they sound good. I will only use ceramics in one place in audio these days which is the treble cap in the tone stack of a high gain amp channel. Clean channels get silver mica, but there is a classic "grit" from a ceramic in that position it seems.

To parrot Aron, when it comes to your tone, you are the one who has to be satisfied and who cares what anybody else thinks.

Take care,
-Peter

[Eric H]

I tried, gamely, to sidestep the cap-tone issue because I don't believe it will significantly alter his situation --YMMV:)

I have tried a couple of mods on my TS-9 to try to improve the fidelity (more bass, more treble) and I guess the bass part is okay, but the 'treble' mod just seemed to boost the upper mid range - still lo-fi sounding.

-Eric

[Gus]

I have been "playing"  with caps from about 1979.  In power supplys ESR makes a difference.  In effects even with the low voltages DA can make a difference.  The higher voltage rating caps have thicker dielectrics.  Some ceramic caps deform the lattice when there is a voltage across the plates causing a change in value there is even a time delay to this mess.

An electro Al or tant will have a min effect if it has a voltage across the plate that helps keep the oxide layer in good shape.  

The construction can have an effect on the sound , how well are the leads attached to the plates.  What grade is the electrolyte inside the electro cap.  how is the film cap made stacked film or wound.  What is the film cap coated in,  some of the TFCs I have tested seem to have leakage caused by the coating holding water heat them up leakage goes away.

I think some of the sound change in tube amps after playing awile is due to the heat affecting the power supply and other electros.  the specs change with heat I have tested this.

I don't like non polar electos at all the best way to make a non polar electro is to use two electro of X2 the value + to + or - to - with the center tied high or low with a resistor.  this keeps the oxide layer formed.

The best way to learn is to try different caps, when you find something take all the measurements you can.  there is a science to the sound of caps

[bwanasonic]

I think the fact still remains that no kind of cap I know of will make a TS9 sound *HiFi*. Different certainly. I would be curious to hear a high-end opamp in one, but I'm not about to go mucking around with my original TS9. Kind of burnt out on the TS anyway. Too bad so many think it's SRV tone in a can.

Kerry M

[zeppenwolf]

Edit: Ok, I think I get it...

Eden

[bwanasonic]

cb - thanks to this thread I fished my vintage TS9 (with the so-called 808 mod resistors and *+bass* cap) out of a box for old times sake. I found running it sandwiched between an Orange Squeezer and Mosfet Boost greatly improved it's clarity and definition.

Kerry M

[Dai H.]

in situations where differences seemed apparent, Black Gates, Cerafine, OS-Con, MUSE, etc. all sounded different to me. Just try it out yourself if you want to know, maybe you will or won't hear a difference w/dif. types of caps. I would be careful of thinking higher tech or pricey, or vintage is going to necessarily sound better (I see this here down in Akihabara--young guy, sort of musician looking dude asks the parts store person--"does this sound good?", invariably, the higher priced part "sounds better"--of course...). But remember to try more normal approaches like changing the *value* or whatever other circuit changes, otherwise I think it is actually possible to dig yourself a hole into Eric Johnson land (expending a disproportionate amount of effort for infinitesimal gain/s).

[javacody]

In one word, yes.

I changed out the two 0.22 uF caps in my TS, and it made a significant difference (to my ears).

If you want a cleaner, more transparent tone from a TS, look at Aron's mods page.  I  was searching for that sound, and while swapping out the tants for poly caps made an improvement, as well as swapping out the 1uF NP electro's for 1 uF polys, the way I got to the sound I was hearing in my head was to change the clipping diodes and swap out the opamp. I changed the two 1n914's to 2 in series on one side, and 3 in series on the other. I got a much clearer OD (still thick) and its slightly sweeter. I went with a Burr-Brown opamp (can't remember which one, I think it ended in a 40?). By the way, this was all done to a TS5 I picked up off of ebay for $20. I'm not about to kill a $100 pedal with my experiments.  

I also did the more/less distortion mods found on Frank Clarke's site.