Sound Man Shant [ot?]

[petemoore]

Be warned, this is a rant about adult stuff and soundman negativity. The only thing good about it is that it identifies the bad that seems often to prevail [around here at least].
Rant Abou the sh the sound man's into.
 'My Room, I know what I' 'm doing,4 x18's,4x15''s 'n Horns, You keep Your Guitar down I'll make you sound great"!...I couldn't say anything at the time...what a crock!!!..He goes on "Iv'e mixed hundreds of bands and I know what I'm doing".
 As soon as I hear that I know it's going to be for sh. I mean the guy can't even keep up with a little 50w barely turned on.
 So I goes out front to listen after turning my amp so low it don't really sound right...out front I hear that glarbage PA/Guitar Mic'd sound...lol.
 I know these type morons and simply abide the "My room' don't say a thing and ask if that's low enough...even though the guitar sounds like every other guitar after being raped by the PA, all I heard was the typical midrangey streaming line PA tone...sounded kinda ppoopy...
 I don't know where they get these guys, he'd supposed to represent BUDWEISER, I think he was sectretly representing the cola and metho.
 Says "I can turn the leads UP"...yea half way through the solo IF your'e at the board.
 Says " I Got everything you need." I suppose that includes the half blown monitors.
 I was about to explain how a guitar amp sounds like a guitar amp, and how 10's or 12's get better more accurate bass response and how 15's and 18's were designed for bass guitars and to withstand bass Drum abuse. 12's, 10's, horns are the best choice for vocals...
 I don't know who puts these idiots in a position where they can ruin mixes consistantly, but it seems to be the norm in many bars. It doesn't work right, IMO my amp/setup sounds very much better when the sound man shuts up and turns the vocals up.
 He mixed the drums realy good, vocals didn't seem to get up very well, monitors just plain didn't cut it....I think these guys eat bands alive on a weekly basis.
 I suppose since we're new [1rst timers at that bar] he decided to give us the 'f'em up a bit and see how they respond' treatment.
 IMO, one simply cannot mix a tasty batch of VooDoo chili running a handicapped amp [turned too low to get the good Voo cooking]coming out of a PA that loses all the transients, highs, and lows sound muddy. Just doesn't taste right at all.
 We get a gig out of the deal, but I'm not all too excited about doing it under those conditions.
 He probly does have bands knocking at the door to get in there. I say they can have it. It'll be different next time. I'll bring my JBL eon monitor, and the guitar will need no micing, will sound greatly improved coming right off the stage like the stuff was designed to do. All "You' gotta do is turn the vocals up out front.
 Yupp, if there is a next time with that guy, I'll be putting him through some new paces. ....Guess what toofless [I couldn't understand a word he said except the prepared lines he'd 'perfected' like "i Know what I ' ' m doing" and 'turn the guitar down'...I suppose as long as you don't mind having your sound raped by him, it all works out for the best.
 He seemed to support the idea...start late, let the drummer go on his run at starting time, which takes an hour...I'm like kool, now we got a drummer and sound man, all higher than cokites,...I should have said something, over the PA, these guys think like I don't notice anything...too gross to even touch, I decided the crowd [what there was of it] didn't need to hear about my troubles that affect them, since nothing could reasonably be done about it.
 Anyway I got some nice numbers out of the deal...my old buddy Don the drummer, and the other string/drummer/player guy are looking to get into a band eager to have me call, and the sweet little blond babe...whooYEAHH...even with all the band crap and sound man schlag, I kept the smiles on, and had fun anyway...very hard work though, no real flow, some of it sounded just Great [I guess} they say, but at that point I saw the whole affair as being a joke, except the drummer and sound idiot seemed to get a serious and crass high out of it. Crack does that.
 Hard to find smart people that actually have talent. I can usually spot the ignorance a long ways off, just not long enough though...sometimes it pops up in my face when I'm not expecting it, and I just go oh...you got me. Actually I could feel beforehand it was going to be subjected to attempts at making it 'fiascoed'....figured well 1rst gig, might as well get it over with.
 You can bet I'm calling the other drummer...the bonehead did OK, but that last minute doperun when the band is late for starting crap, in cahouts with the soundman...whew...one time like that is enough for me.
 Then I got to hear all the lies and such...lol. What a crock ! ! !
 Sorry for the July 5 rant, maybe some have experienced this kind of crap, others may learn some things to watch out for.
 Yes I truly believe had that idiot not been there, and had I attached a thick chain between the brick wall behind the drummer to his spike collar, things would have been better...if the chain broke, I'd have grabbed one or two of the other drummers that were at the bar. I could have used the PA and got a hot mix on the mic out front, my EON would take care of monitor problems, and the guitar/amp would have sounded very much like a superb guitar/amp...etc etc etc etc etc etc tecb....SHEEEeeeZZZ...idiots with blinders on.

[Mark Hammer]

So, uh, what I'm getting here is that you've aimed a little higher than the soundman has, both auditorily, ethically, and in terms of life?

I think being a decent sound person means being able to go beyond your own ears and position and have a sense of what others hear.  That sort of egolessness is hard for most people to accomplish, so I don't think sound guys have any lock on that market, and certainly no more or less than band members themselves.

Of course the central problem of both of these adversaries is that musicians try desparately to capture what things sound like to them in a practice space, or stage setting, when things sound amazing.  How it sounds in the middle of the playing space and amps may well be near impossible, or at least very very difficult, to capture when attempting to send that sound out to an audience.  Conversely, how things sound to the guy seated at the mixing board, may have no semblance whatsoever to what people sitting a mere 10 ft away from there, or what the folks on stage, hear.  This is, in principle, not a lot different than what the guy with a custom modded Civic with a 400W amp and two 15inch subwoofers in a molded trunk retrofit thinks.  In his mind he has this *amazing* sound system, but to those outside the vehicle who only get to hear these truly annoying throbs (which the guy in the car can't hear because of wavelength restrictions in small listening spaces), this car holds about as much aural attraction as a vacuum cleaner.

In your note, of course, you make reference to a number of areas of displeasure with soundmen.  One is their general degree of disagreement with you, and the other is their capacity to make appropriate decisions in a timely manner.  I suppose it is best to think of this in terms of being fortunate if you get one out of two, and absolutely blessed if you get both.

My sense is, though, that very good sound reinforcement people, very much like very good musicians themselves, tend not to hang around nickel and dime gigs very long, but move into the bigger leagues.  What you will find in terms of talent in the music minor leagues will be an overrepresentation of those who refuse to grow.  A pity, given how many musicians that wish to grow depend on them.

[RDV]

I solved that problem by slander & libeling our soundman until he was run out of town on a rail.  :wink:
Now "I" run our sound, and basically now have a 2,450 watt guitar amp!!

HAH!!

RDV

[Lonestarjohnny]

You the Man Ricky, My thought's on soundmen, "Get The Rope Ma !"
Honest Injun, Why does it seem there is always that A button for the main Band and a B button for the opening Band.
And what's really funny to watch, is an opening band that has there Sh*t together and outsmarts the soundman and come's off blowin the main Band off the Stage, I've only seen this a couple time's but it was funnyyyyy!  to see the Main Band take'in chunk's outa the Ol' soundman's Arss ! :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:
JD

[SoundTech]

I'm hurt.   :cry:

Actually, I think Mark made some good points.  When I was starting out, I knew I didn't know anything, and I wanted to learn, and I wanted to make the bands sound good and I wanted everyone to be happy.  Well, I quickly found out that due to equipment limitations, bad acoustical spaces, and egos, that I wasn't always going to be able to make everybody happy.  So, I just kept learning everything I could, and I kept working as hard as I could, and I always did my best to include the band with certain decisions involving the mix.  I always listened to what they had to say, and I always did my best to accommodate them (if possible), as best I could without ruining what was going on (some bands just didn't get how things worked, so it was difficult to bend the laws of physics).  Well, after a little while, I had progressed, but it seemed a lot of people in my field did have the ears, know how, or work ethic I did.  It's not that I thought very highly f myself, it's just that a lot of people had a very limited view on the job and what they could do with a system and a band.  I was fortunate enough to get in with a bigger outfit, and I was able ti improve even more.  Every small gig I did went well, but they became such a hassle for me, I stopped doing small venues.  I honestly feel sorry for a lot of bands.  A lot of places I've been to have house engineers, and most of them don't seem to know what the heck they're doing.  I honestly don't know how some of these people get their jobs, or keep their jobs.

[bwanasonic]

I feel your pain, but I have also been in situations where the soundman really DID know what he was doing and DID know the room, but stubborn band members insisted on WAY too much stage volume, making for an unpleasant experience for all (audience included). There are some scenarios, esp. large cavernous rooms, where blasting your way thru the mix with amp volume makes for a complete crap mix. Of course if the soundman, let alone a band member was doing crack, I would have been well on my way home before soundcheck. What matters on a gig to me is that THE BAND sounds good, whatever that requires. Sometimes it requires some compomise.

Kerry M

[RDV]

I love a good soundman, more precious than gold as there seems to be so few...

RDV

[petemoore]

Hostility Vs. Thinking
 Personal habits aside...because I personally don't really care about that, just a persons ability to function.
 Providing hostility, and threats + insults in response to thinking processes is key to identifying the sound mans ability.
 The only things I actually said are:
1.  This amp sounds good and doesn't need a Mic.
2.  It doesn't work right unless it is turned up just a little bit. mistake to say, but sparked enough hostility to know not to try anything with this guy.
3.  Q. Is 'that' too loud. A. No [then something I couldn't understand].
4.  Later I asked "how's it going [name]'
 He seemed somehow to have mixed me up with someone else, [probably the bass player who was testing him a bit], claiming somewhat publicly enough that I was giving him some ....]
 Basically these house soundmen probably get nastly rigs blasting in there and totally close thier minds to the idea that a finely tuned rig can sound really great, and make all kinds of things happen that simply don't' through tht PA.
 Complaining that vocals won't be clear and loud, and insisting that everything else be mixed with....
 Uh, besides the totally obvious A/B test, between a cooking amp sound and an amp turned too low to be effective then run through 'whatever'...there are all the manuals and testimonies of engineers for JBL, Cerwin Vega [pick your poison] Led Zep, JH....all claiming that by separating signals, greater volume and clarity can be heard for each instrument. It is a physical fact ignored by modern day mixers....
 For outdoor use, some reinforcement to guitars through the PA may be necessary.
 For small halls, obviously some adaptation must be made, having a separate amp for every different source is rediculous, but separation when possible enables say the PA to amplilfy vocals clearer and louder...
 Basically I wanted it to be easy, as it was purpoted to have supposed to have been, not having to fight the soundman, these guys have their agenda's, limited personal skills and knowlegde, argueing with them drags you down to their level, then they beat you with [dumm] experience, by setting a tone of hostility, the guy looked like a fighter, not the kind to confront without serious intimidation, I just figured he's going to beat me up in the mix anyway somehow, why even bother trying to do anything for him.
 Probably overworked, seemed a bit toasty, underpaid, just likes having the position but doesn't really take it seriously, figured out that he has enough bands waiting in line to play there that meeting intelligence with hostility works for him.
 They come and go, I'm just one in a long line of soundman reviews...thing is, the more we become aware of it the faster they go.
 Who in their right mind would want to deal with bands coming and going on a daily basis for extended periouds of time...yer stuffs half blown, other places you could be...you expect to get treated like a lackie gopher...unless they're really paying [small bars don't] who needs that???

[sir_modulus]

Know what, good sound guys are hard to come by. So are well behaved bands. I think that sound guys should learn to play instruments, and bands should learn to do sound. That way everyone's happy.

[RDV]

A tip. When a soundman tells you to 'turn down, don't worry, I'm a genius, you'll sound good', just turn your cab around towards the back of the stage and floorboard that sucker. If that doesn't help, just kick him in the shin.

RDV

[Mike Burgundy]

I agree with sir modulus - the only good soundtech is a musician.

[Fret Wire]

The harder you work on your tone, the less patient you are with someone trying to eq, it or mix it down. Soundmen are like the musicians, there are good and bad, dicks and diplomats, etc. I've seen plenty that can make a miked champ sound great in the mix, and I've seen plenty get their efforts ruined by players with a full-on stack, who make them rearrange everything for their setup. Many of us rely on a dimed tube amp to get our "tone", and alot of soundmen I know dread this, because it's one less option they have to achieve a good mix. Most good one's can handle it, just requires a little more understanding and cooperation from the band.

Like I said, they are no different than the band sometimes:

Guitarist: "Everyone else keeps them awake until My godlike solos floor" em'!

Vocalist: "Everything else is all just filler between my expressive lines."

Drummer/Bassist: "Forget what's over the beat, we are the beat, that's why their bobbin' their heads."

Soundman: "Same old egotistical drivel. Where's my reward for making all these wannabes' sound like they actually have a little talent."

Funny, for beginning bands, both many soundmen, and musicians, get in bands only because they own a PA and board.

[sir_modulus]

You forgot:
Audience: ARGGHHH

I just think the guitar bass and drums and vocals should all get 100W plexi's and max them

[SoundTech]

A tip. When a soundman tells you to 'turn down, don't worry, I'm a genius, you'll sound good', just turn your cab around towards the back of the stage and floorboard that sucker. If that doesn't help, just kick him in the shin.

He he.  Actually, I've worked with bands that had really bad sound to start with, AND they wanted to play ear-bleeding loud.  Sometimes the soundman CAN have the band turn down and get a better mix out of it.  It all depends on what you have to work with.

I agree with sir modulus - the only good soundtech is a musician.

Yeah, and I've met plenty of bad soundmen that were bad at music as well.  Go figure.

I did a gospel gig where the main singer also played a mean guitar.  He was complaining that there wasn't enough of his bass player in his monitor.  Well the house was big, the equipment wasn't the greatest, and I knew the monitors weren't good at handling a lot of low end, and I knew adding more was going to muddy up the house mix AND his monitor mix.  But, instead of sitting behind the board and telling him there wasn't anything I could do about it, I totally floored him by going on stage and listening to his monitor with him (during sound check, NOT the show).  He loved that I was willing to check things out from his perspective, and I was actually able to give him a little more of what he wanted without ruining anything.  I guess the point is that it does take a measure of cooperation, team work, and understanding to get the band and sound engineers to work together for the common good.  It's not always an easy thing to do, but most of the time I've been able to show the bands that I am on their side, I'd rather work with them than against them, but in some cases I was limited to what I could do for them.  Most of the time, I was able to gain the enough of the bands trust and some respect, and I was able to make them happy.  A little extra goes a long way.

[RDV]

Actually for the record I don't play all that incredibly loud, but I do use a 412 with a 50 watt Marshall. I've figured out that I can aim my cab at the back of our P.A. stack which blocks quite a bit of the direct head-on sound from it, allowing me to hear myself onstage(I truly hate turning my cab around), but still have the mix not be totally overblown by my guitar's stage volume. Nothing sounds better than a good mix through a good P.A.

RDV(in Soundman/Musician mode)

[Mike Burgundy]

Have you tried aiming it across the stage? Can be a real help on small venues.

Soundtech: cooperation, communication, and seeing things from the other guys point of view - that's the only way to do it innit?
One venue a do a lot of work for has REAL problems when you put bass through monitors (it's all you'll hear), so I got used to patching extra channels with totally different EQ settings (meaning, less bass) for the kick and bass, and use those channel strips for monitoring only.

[petemoore]

These speakers were intended to withstand any abuses of bass or bass drum, not to respond to transients of guitar.
 When Ppl tell me that guitar sounds better through the PA, I think of the speaker manual reads [like JBL] and laugh a little.
 The other very interesting point in the JBL manual is that the more signals you 'dump' into one speaker the less clear and loud the other will be. The best bands I've heard in a bar had great sounding stage guitar amps, and the PA was left mostly for vocal use...if one is worried about vocal clarity and loudness in the mix, wouldn't one obvious tack be to use a 'vocal amp'?...not making the same system attempt to respond to very complex inputs will muddy things up, at least according to every amp, mixer, speaker, reverb etc. manual that says so...the ones that don't simply omit the 'signal crowding' info so Ppl can thing "oh this does it all'.
 Yes according to field engineers and design engineers, separating signals is one great way to increase clarity of each....if no still believe...try separating them and see for yourself. Having a dedicated amp system for each source Is the best way to get greater definition of the output waveform. Obviously certain concessions must be made.
 I haven't heard a PA yet that sounds like a Marshall 1/2 stack.
 Believing that it sounds 'better' with everything jammed into one system makes me think:
 1 They haven't read the appropriate info on the subject.
 2 They never tried it for themselves.
 3 They believe whatever they want to believe, even when faced with the extremely obvious...if you'd been there, and heard the difference between the stage sound and what was coming out of the PA...
 I had a sound man once insist on running all 14 mics into JBL studio reference monitors...didn't want to hear any of the 22 [overkill I admit] speakers that were on the stage...lol...yep Studio reference monitors...not enough even to get the vocals alone up...he has bass reinforcement, but PLEASE!!!
 I get the idea these guys were told stuff, but never figured anything out for themselves, and certainly never did the great reads, I read all about this stuff over the decades, from Guitar Player Magazine, to articles about experiences engineering Zep, JH etc...
 If I wanted my guitar to sound like a stiff coned 15'' speaker driven by a SS amp...why would I have opted for a Marshall re-issue with Greenbacks?

[Rich G.]

I stand on both sides of the fence.  Some nights as a guitarist, others mixing FOH.  I've learned lots by doing this-- It really helped me to understand the entire mix and how each instrument fits into the frequency spectrum.

One thing that really stands out for me as being nearly impossible to deal with is a guitarist who's "out of the mix".  When their stage volume is so excessive that bringing everything else up to that level would surely solicit more than a few complaints from bar owners.  Here's a few things for guitarists to keep in mind:

* Keep stage volume low.  The band will sound better overall and there will be fewer monitor feedback problems.  Side-wash the amp to cut across the stage or put the amp on the floor to avoid problems (see next bullet).
* Never point your amp right at the sound man.  Yes, he should walk around the room for the overall sound, but he'll spend the majority of the evening behind the board.  Try not to rip his head off all evening.
* Ask the sound man between sets what you can do to make his job easier.  He'll appreciate this and will actually look forward to working with the band again.
* Stay out of his way during setup.  Nothing worse than a guitarist noodling on stage while the sound guy is troubleshooting that pesky 60 cycle hum in the monitors.

[petemoore]

I acted in following of all the bullets you typed out. [I read them carefully and though about each one, I try to be diplomatic and compromise, I feel I compromised very well].
 They are all good.
 I played at an 'OK'd' level, didn't touch any volume knobs the whole night.
 I suppose it's one of those 'had to be there' things...too many variables to communicate by typing.
 Oh the one thing I should have tried that has been repeatedly suggested: Turn the speaker cab a different direction.
 I still feel the tone of the PA producing the heard guitar is inferior, and that a great mix could have been had without balancing the guitar through the PA, just turning it up enough to be in the mix from the stage.
 ...That's an 'opinion' can of worms that I don't open at a gig with a hostile soundman.
 Just one of those Sunday Gigs where the guy isn't even at the board for 90% of the time, yet claims he can bring the leads up...providing half disgruntled lies to threat of full hostility before anything else happens. The band all agreed he was doing a shoddy job.
 Anyway I got my rants in, [here, not at the bar] and learned something about working with house soundguys.

[RedHouse]

petemoore, I feel your pain. I've so been there, and so done that too.

"...there are all the manuals and testimonies of engineers for JBL, Cerwin Vega [pick your poison] Led Zep, JH....all claiming that by separating signals, greater volume and clarity can be heard for each instrument. It is a physical fact ignored by modern day mixers.... "

Having been on both sides of the mixing board, I'd really have to disagree.

Recalling the main reason for PA development back then was because of how bad and un-managable the sound of separate signals beaming off the stage into the listeners faces really was, I remember, I was there back then.

Anyway, not to minimize the pain and frustration of having a crap-ass idiot at the mixing-board of any PA. No soundman except your very own will "turn up the lead" at the right time and even then your own can be off, not like stomping your own switch or rolling your own volume ctrl, but nothing beats post processing your nice cranked sound, for instance echo sounds best after the guitar amp and to do that you need a PA and it's associated effects downstream.

My solution years ago was to plug a floor monitor onto a 50w Marshall 2204, then I could have it nearly as loud as I wanted while it didn't get in the way of a decent house mix.

One can also look into building a 18w amp. You can build some nice Marshall (MV or Plexi) and Fender style amps that will allow cranking-up but put out much less overall volume, then a PA will fit nicely with the cranked-up sound and still allow post processing.
(www.ax84.com and www.ampage.com)

Another thing you can check, if your amp has treble-bleed caps on the volume ctrl's either disconnect them or add a series resistor (of about 1/2 the pot's value) as treble-bleed cap's often cause amps to sound rather funky when turned down below 1/2 way. (might be all your amp needs to sound good at lower volume, worth a try anyway)

PS: a cure for an asleep-at-the-wheel soundman is to use 2 amps, one for rhythm and adding in a second amp for lead work, let him mic and soundcheck on the 1st amp (rhythm) then kick-in the additional amp when you need volume boost for lead work.

(have the 2nd one switch-on in addition to the 1st, not as an alternative)