That Led Zep II sound...

[petemoore]

HALLS and CHAMBERS
 In addition to numerous mic placements per take, shouldn't be overlooked.
 Using ancient halls / chambers as reverb units is what I'd recommend.
 Catch that vibe if you can find it.
 Like leslie effect or other naturally occuring sound oddities, reflective surfaces with various volumes, valves and chambers can make a super effect, rare, because access to such places for setting up 4 x 12''s and cranking guitar amps just isn't done in cathedrals anymore that I know of.
 A similar effect was had playing at a 2 semi trailer garage, all cement walls,  high steel ceiling [room about square], place the amp in there, walk away from it, tweek the knobs and angles, get harmonic feedback stuff like...I used to go down there and play for hours it sounded so great...8 guitar speakers, a Boogie Mk IV or Marshall head, could get a tonage of note slurry going that way, far and beyond what I've ever heard coming from a box, add a little reverb...it could go on forever...
 Anyway, in all my trials and trevails, everything I've ever seen about it, using a real hall, preferably with more reflective sides is the closest and extremely fun to play in condition I've every been in that gets close to the early Zep studio guitar sounds...
 Plus I read about these guys using this technique.
 Personally, I find playing loud guitar in 'reactive accoustic' settings to be a total blast. Not the same for those tight snappy rythms of course.
 Headphones, and a chamberous accoustic arena...old buildings have these accesible from time to time.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello--
    ......and then there are the times when J. P. Jones actually produced the tracks because a certain guitar player was to out of it to function...
Brian.

[Lonestarjohnny]

and me, i laugh goin to the bank after sellin several of those highly touted Thunderbolt's, i know a lot of what you hear when he played this amp was mostly Page 's ability, the amps or GodAwful sounding, ever 1 i've owned sound's like crap, was freakin the first time i put 1 on the bay, i was afraid the guy would come back on me, could not see why anyone would pay that much for an amp that sound's like those do,
now on the other hand, i'm not Les Paul so don't listen to that crap i was printen up there, just because it's not my cup of Tea don't cut it,
I've seen LZ 4 time's, first time the were beyond word's, the next time they Sucked, last two time's they started out sounding bad, but finished after some gear change's were made and then they were more than you could expect,
I saw Page and Plant a few year's ago in Austin, same deal, first four song's were pretty shakey, last 4 or 5 were just great, but what do you expect, i heard they were on rented equipment.
JD

[Doug_H]

lkj

[Fret Wire]

On half of Purple's 1970 "In Rock", Blackmore is still using his 335. That was the album he started his switch to Strats. It was Strat all the way after that. Machine Head & Made in Japan are my two favorites. Great tone and playing on both.

[petemoore]

Yupp, we wore Machine Head Vynil almost all the way through, spinning it over and over...
 One you've maybe never heard of: Deep Purple "Fireball", we copped it in Germany, it was banned in the US...wore that one down too. Very early DP.

[Fret Wire]

Fireball came out right after In Rock. It was sold in the US, different cuts than the UK release. "Strange Kind of Woman" became a live staple for Purple. I bought every one when they came out, and wore them all out. The MKII lineup of Purple was the best. In Rock, Fireball, Machine Head, Made In Japan, Who Do We Think We Are? All great albums. Many people don't have it, but there is an import live album from 71' that was rereleased here called Deep Purple in Concert. Alot of BBC stuff on that. A good companion to Made in Japan. The instrumentals "Wring That Neck" and "Mandrake Root" are worth the price alone. Of course, nothing beats the solo on the Made in Japan version of  Highway Star.

[Doug_H]

;lkj

[Fret Wire]

I call that my 2nd favorite solo.  It is great, ain't it Doug? He doesn't run out of ideas once during that solo. I loved how he always went back and forth between his harmonic minor runs and pentatonic blues licks. BTW, Rob Halford is good, but Ian Gillan proves on that cut that he was the master screamer. If you haven't, check out the In Concert live cd. Great guitar work on that. Also, a good reminder that Jon Lord was the Hendrix of keyboard players. The ultimate in what you can do with a Hammond B-3 and Marshalls. Good to see I'm not the only Blackmore/Purple fan out there.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello-
    Blackmore  had the humbuckers on his red 335 set pretty far from the strings and then adjusted  each pole piece closer.
Brian.

[Steben]

Ik know you guys like to talk hours and hours about the technique of the fingers and that...
But I know what you mean whit it, you see.
The problem is that Led Zep I sounds alot different than Led Zep II.

Look: "Communication breakdown" is just early school transistor fuzz, right? So to h**l with finger technique! I still believe the master of the head and the knowledge of making music is far superior to finger technique: just listen to Cobain...

My question remains the same: why does Led Zep II sound so awfuly good and charming towards other LZ records? The sweet yet short solo on "lemon song" is totally great for example: be real : you all can play it!!! But can you touch that crumbly old dusty sound? Maybe it's a treble booster in front of a low-gain Tone Bender?

[Jim Jones]

Hey Steben,

I know how it can be frustrating when people go on about "it's all in the fingers", but you have to admit - most cliches exist for a reason.  
Truthfully, if you're talking about "The Lemon Song" -tone specifically, a Les Paul plugged straight into an old Marshall in a good room will nail that tone.  And good fingers.  

Jim

[Joe Hart]

I agree with the fingers thing to a point. I mean, if I have the right amp tone, I sound awesome. A bad sound, and I suck. I think it's psychological. And by the way, I am pretty decent. I've been playing very seriously for 20 years, been teaching for about 15, I have a degree in music...

But when I have the right gear... it's magic.

Also, I sound and, more importantly, play different on a Les Paul than on a Strat, or on a metal-style guitar. And when I step on a Phase 90 set on minimum, I swear I could be Eddie Van Halen (you know without the talent and all that).

Yes, it is the fingers, but would Stevie Ray sound the same without a Strat, without heavy strings, without his amps (Bassman?), without his Tube Screamer, etc...?

You can totally hear Ritchie Blackmore's switch from the Gibson to Strats.

Just my thoughts.
-Joe Hart

[Gilles C]

Totally agree with you Joe.

I know it affects me. As do the guys playing with me.

It's call synergy. (the working together of two things to produce an effect greater than the sum of their individual effects)

The gear affects the way you sound... and play.

It's a fact. Like playing at 7:00 in the morning before the first coffee, compared to 1:00 at night after listening a good CD of after you went to see a pretty good guitar player at a show.

Did you see the DVD of Paul McCartney at the Cavern? David Gilmor is playing a Tele straight into an amp (that's how it sounds to me) and doesn't seem very inspired.

Did you see his last 2002 DVD, an accoustic performance to begin with, where he plays accoustic, and then adds distortion to his accoustic later in the show... wow...

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006LI4S.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

His accoustic sound is superb, and so is his playing.  

[Jim Jones]

Hey Steben,

My bad..I was thinking of "Heartbreaker" when I said LP straight into a Marshall.  I think you're probably right thinking there's a Tonebender in the mix with "The Lemon Song' - sounds like it to me anyway...

Jim

[John Catto]

Led Zep II? That's mostly Pages old ('59) Les Paul and Marshall's. If you haven't played a Les Paul of that period it's hard to perceive of how different they sound compared to later models, breathier with that "double-tone" thing going on. As I recall that album was recorded in several locations while on tour in the US so it's probably all their touring gear and maybe whatever was lying around the studios they were using. Don't think there's any Tele and I can't recall hearing any fuzzboxes though if Page had one on him it wouldn't surprise me, there IS tremelo on the bass on Heartbreaker and maybe on a couple other bits if you listen carefully. Page has mentioned in at least one interview that there's a bit of solid state VOX on a few bits (maybe leftover yardbirds gear left in storage in the states and dug out as backups). Oh yeah, "Living Loving Maid" is a VOX Phantom XII 12 string!

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello--
      The leftover gear in the States was a Rickenbacker Transonic amp [solid state] with the Telly and the Tonebender MK II.  I'm pretty sure there were other amps, too, but can't remember for sure...
Brian.

[space_ryerson]

I met Eddie Kramer once, and while I spent most of the time talking about Electric Ladyland, we did discuss Page, and he said it was the way hit attacked the strings that made the difference. Page generally was playing with a somewhat soft touch, but when he went to a loud section, he really beat the strings; creating even greater dynamics. His miking techniques also brought out a lot of the tone we hear.

I also think it is the guitar. I spent a long time trying to get a good 'Page' tone when I was young, and since I am left-handed, I never could try out an old Les Paul. Later on, after I had stopped spending my time Page emulating, I stumbled upon an old lefty LP Custom. I would just try to play normally with that guitar, and it ends up sounding like LZII, without any effort.

[John Catto]

Hello Hello--
      The leftover gear in the States was a Rickenbacker Transonic amp [solid state] with the Telly and the Tonebender MK II.  I'm pretty sure there were other amps, too, but can't remember for sure...
Brian.

Hey Brian, forgot about them..

I thought he just had the cabs from the transonics however?

From a Guitar World interview circa?...

LED ZEPPELIN II U.S. release: October 22, 1969
Recorded at: Olympic Studios (London), A&R Studios (New York), Juggy Sound Studios (N.Y.), Mayfair Studios (N.Y.), Mystic Studios (L.A.), Mirror Sound (L.A.), and Ra hut in Vancouver, BritishColumbia
Guitars: 1959 Les Paul, Vox 12-string
Amps: 100-watt Marshall, Vox Solid State

GW: What was the impetus for the unaccompanied solo in the middle of "Heartbreaker" ?

Page: I just fancied doing it. I was always trying to do something different,or something that no one else had thought of. But the interesting thing about that solo is that it was recorded after we had already finished "Heartbreaker" -- it was an afterthought. That whole section was recorded in a different studio and was sort of slotted in the middle. If you notice, the whole sound of the guitar is different.

GW: I have actually noticed that the tuning of the guitar was slightly higher.
Page: The pitch was off as well? I did not know that !! [laughs]

GW: Was the solo composed?
Page: No, it was made up on the spot. I think that was one of the first things I played through a Marshall... "Bring it On Home" was played through a Marshall as well.

GW: What led you to use Marshall amps?
Page: At that time, it was state of the art reliability. They were really good for going out on the road. I was always having trouble with amps -- fuses blowing or whatever. By that time I was using a Les Paul anyway and that was just a classic setup.

GW: What guitar did you use on "Song", was it the Gibson Doubleneck??
Page: No, I used a Fender 12-string in the studio. And before the Fender, I used a Vox 12-string. You can hear the Vox on things like "Thank You" and "Living Loving Maid" on the Second album.

Guitar Player July 77

Led Zeppelin II  (Jumping ahead to the second album) , the riff in the middle of "Whole Lotta Love" was a very composed and structured phrase.

I had it worked out already, that one, before entering the studio. I had rehearsed it. And then all that other stuff, sonic wave sound, and all that, I built it up in the studio, and put effects on it and things -- treatments.

How is that descending riff done?

With a metal slide and backwards echo. I think I came up with that before anybody. I know it's been used a lot now, but not at the time. I thought of it on this Mickie Most thing. In fact, some of the things that might sound a bit odd have, in fact, backwards echo on them, as well.

Guitar World 1998

GW: I was looking at some old photos of the band recently, and I noticed you had a real assortment of fairly bizarre amplifiers and guitars in '69. What were you using before you switched to the Marshall Super Lead/Les Paul combination that most people associate with you?

PAGE: It was basically whatever we could afford at that time. I didn't really make any money when I was with the Yardbirds, so I was pretty broke in the beginning. I actually had to finance the first Zeppelin album with money I had saved as a session musician. What I had as equipment was very minimal. I had my Telecaster that Jeff Beck gave me, a Harmony acoustic, a bunch of Rickenbacker TransSonic cabinets left over from the Yardbirds, and a hodge-podge of amps-Vox and Hiwatts, mostly.

[brian wenz]

Hello Hello John--
    How are you doing??
 For Zeps' first tour  [and, using different  amp-and-cab combos for the 2nd album...] in America they used the Transonic amps and cabs.
 I'm pretty sure that the Tonebender was used as more of a booster [with the "fuzz" set  low and the "volume" set high...]  when the Les Paul started getting used more.
Page also used light strings [.009 for a high "E" ] and REALLY low action.
 Cripes, why doesn't somebody start a thread on Link Wray or somebody??!
Brian.