The limits of discriminability

[Mark Hammer]

We've been through this before, and I probably shouldn't even bring it up, but heck, its worth taking inventory and a reality check.

Every now and then I take a visit over to the Musictoyz site to what's new.    I'm also a regular buyer of Vintage Guitar magazine, which has an unending parade of boutique builders.  It never ceases to amaze me the sheer number of distortions that they carry or flog, and the sheer number of startup boutique makers there are for this category of pedal.  Now, unless someone has stumbled onto something truly different, the overwhelming majority of these are going to be either FET-based, diode-clipping-based, GE-clipping Fuzz-face clones, octave-up fuzzes, TS-clones, etc.  In other words, they are all going to rely on common design aspects.  Differences between them are going to be packaging, chip/tranny choice, cap choices, EQ features, gain structure.  In other words, same woman, different wig (or essentially, enough cosmetic change to make you *perceive* differences that aren't really there).  

Of course, with so many of them, the difficulty of equating settings across pedals, lapses in auditory memory, etc.,  it is difficult to actually compare all of these pedals, and say, "Yes, these three are pretty much the same in their functioning, and are different enough from those 4 to describe them as different in such and such a way".  I certainly don't want to stop anyone from going into business, but at the same time, the obsession about having the "ideal" distortion tends to be somewhat self-defeating.  Besides, the world doesn't really NEED yet one more tarted up Tube Screamer.  If you want to mod, go ahead, but the kerfuffle that surrounds minute changes in fairly basic circuits is silly.  In many instances, the differences between any 4 or 5 commercial pedals in the distortion category used with the same guitar is much smaller than the same pedal used with 4 or 5 different guitars.  So what is making the difference here?

In statistics, we talk about two types of error: a Type I error in which one mistakenly assumes a difference between two outcomes (e.g., group/condition A and B) when in fact there was none other than what might be expected by chance factors, and a Type II error in which there really IS a difference but the conditions of test did not permit such a difference to be detected.  A well-designed test of any sort is one which minimizes both types of error.  

In the case of distortion pedals, there are all sorts of sources of Type II error.  For instance, as noted, auditory memory ("Sounds exactly like the one I tried at Xavier's Pedal Palace last month.  Man, did I have a hangover that morning!"), or perhaps even soundclips (all recorded at a crystalline 64k RealAudio format, and listened to through ten dollar 350wattsPMP plastic desktop speakers attached to your computer) can contribute to the perception that two or more pedals sound identical when actually they don't.

Of course, there are many more sources of Type I error than Type II in this instance.  Pot taper on controls and pedal settings, signal source, amp used for the demo in addition to all of its settings and speaker characteristics, playing style and picking strength, strings, pickup used, memory errors that exaggerate contrast, listener error, hype, misuse of controls, power supply, and on and on.  In many respects, the odds of there being no difference between any two units being touted as the next big thing are pretty good.

There ARE improvements to basic designs in terms of noise, perhaps the range of control, fizziness, and sensitivity.  Of course, you will never really hear/see such things described as "Sounds exactly like Pedal X, except less hiss" or "Same as Pedal Y, but you can roll off a little more treble".

So, accepting that it is hard to make a pedal that fits EVERY conceivable niche/rig/set-of-ears, do we really need all these products?  Or are we actually looking at what amounts to the lipstick display, with 4 or 5 basic colours finely adjusted and laid out to create the impression that there are actually 300 colours?  Just exactly how should it matter to anyone when a place like MusicToyz adds yet another 3-knobber overdrive to its stable?

[aron]

I think we do need all these pedals. The reason being that if you cannot mod or build your own pedals, then where does that leave you? You need to find _the_ pedal that is optimal for your setup. That means trying out as many as you can. Many choices can only help in this regard.

Also, man, try making the same pedal several times, and comparing them; they will most likely be slightly different. Now label them differently. Put themin the hands of a good player and he will have his favorite and probably go as far to label  brand X better than brand Y.

It's like tube amps, look how many different ones there are.

[mikeb]

IIt's like tube amps, look how many different ones there are.

It is a very fine line between providing a good selection of choices, and extracting $$$ from people's wallets whilst still only providing what person x does already, albeit in a different looking box. The world already has enough 808, SHO, FF and LBP1 clones - but on the other hand these are east for pedal makers to manufacture, so we'll be seeing 'new' pedals that are versions of these indefinitely.

Mike

[aron]

I think it's also a little easy to forget that hey, a little mod on a TS might make it the killer pedal for a lot of people.

There's a lot of power in them mods :lol:

[R.G.]

I don't know Mark. Little differences mean a lot, and everyone seems to have their own pecadillos.

If you think about it, men and women have been presented with pretty much the same range of products in their counterparts for a lot of centuries now, and every one of us thinks we sorted out that ...one... special one for us.

Just because one sounds much like another doesn't mean that the next guy in line won't suddenly think .... ah! at last I've found it!...  just because the stompbox in question is pomegranite instead of puce.

Which is very good news to marketers.

[WGTP]

How many different whiskeys are there?  Stereo Loudspeakers is anther deal with a new company every month and most are buying the raw speakers from the same companies.

The whole music deal is so subjective, it's sort of like -  if you think it's great then it is.  Is that worth $300???  It may suck tomorrow, but it's hip tonight.  Hipness seems to have a (marketing driven) limited life span.

How many things are cool for decades???  '55 chevy, Gibson STOPPED making real Les Pauls, and then started again.  Harley's???  Gorgeous babes have even changed definition over time.

I had a telecaster thin line when they first came out and traded it when I decided it sucked.  I still think it sucked.

I've had several Fender Bassman heads, none now, and I wish I had them all back.

As I said in my post on tweaking, one cap value change can be the difference between a $30 pawnshop special and a $300 boutiqes special.  

I think most of us don't want to see people getting ripped of by hype, just like auto-mechanics or attorneys or doctors or #$%^&*() see and do every day.  We are just in a position to see it about stomp boxes.

If I were recommending a distortion/tone device for a beginner, I would tell them to find the best sounding 3-knobber they could (after making sure they had the best guitar sound they could find) and then get a good quiet 7 band EQ to put after it.  That would cover about 80% of the folks.

Now for us tonal experts, that's a different story.   :twisted:

[toneman]

Mark,
Couldn't resist.......
How many types of automobiles R there??
(BTW, How many do U own??)
All have engines, transmissions, at least 2 doors,
a place 2 put the liquid energy, and usually 4 wheels/tires.
What makes them different??
The paint job???
U can pop the hood and each is different.
U can test drive em and each is different.
Yet, more and more "models" R "introduced".
Inquiring minds want 2 know...WHY?
How many types of motorcycles R there??
All have an engine, transmission, at least 2 wheels,
handlebars, & a place to put the liquid energy.
What makes each different.??
How many types of asprin R there??
(I was going 2 say laxitives...LOL!)
Why do we need so many choices??
Huxley refered to it as "overchoice" back in nineteeneightyfour.
When/where have U heard--
"My gizmo incorporates the latest in technology...buy it"
People who "know" the technology have a "better" advantage
than those who have 2 read Consumer Reports to get an opinion.

This old old adage applies to everything, new or used, that U buy--
If U think U got a good deal,.....U did!!
Also, If U build it, they will come(at least to check it out, maybe)
If U *can't* build it,  U have 2 *buy* it.
Did U build the car U drive?  
I did.  And it runs on that new technology----electricity  :-)
Has Anybody Seen The Bridge???  It's 4sale??
staytuned
tone

[bwanasonic]

I agree about your general point, especially from a *scientific* / skeptical POV regarding hype and marketing claims. But I also can't discount the *mystical* / *magical* type of thinking the human mind seems to crave, especially when it involves the tools used to create art. I look at as kind of the *Lucky Socks* factor. The rational skeptic in me would discount the idea of any lucky special properties in a pair of socks, and I would certainly be appalled at any commercial attempts to market *Lucky Socks*, but when that big gig comes up, which socks are you going to wear? Sure, that $300 OD is just a TS at heart, but it just might be someones *Lucky* pedal.

Kerry M

[toneman]

Heyo Mark,
I C U "take the bus".
Public Transit is a great concept!!!
I commend U.
2 bad it sucks in most cities in the USA.
i know it does here in Sacramento.
The Governatored Capital of the Golden State.
U don't own a car???
How many types of busses R there???  
How many type of bus-stops R there??
LOL!!!
Natural Gas or Diesel?
Paper or Plastic?
Robotic or Human driven?
he keeps going and going and going and going...
:-)
staytuned
tone

[Crackpot]

Long ago, when I was young, I sold high-end hi-fi and learned all the tricks you can play on peoples' ears. I never ran into a customer whose opinion on any given speaker/pre-amp/amplifier I couldn't manipulate (usually by taking them to another room -- you can't remember the specifics of a sound for very long at all). It made me more than a little skeptical about what people claim they hear.

No longer. Because, impossible as it seems, at my present job we have had to deal with people who can hear the difference between CDs produced on different machines -- consistently hear the difference in the way the same player reads 1's and 0's that were burned at different angles. In double-blind tests. We employ some mighty fine ears -- professional ears -- and until these guys ("golden ears" -- they get paid for it) displayed their talent, we thought the record company was blowing smoke.

So if people say they hear a difference, I give them the benefit of the doubt.

>> Huxley refered to it as "overchoice" back in nineteeneightyfour.

1984 -> Orwell
Huxley -> Brave New World
"Overchoice" -> ?

I'm still skeptical about a lot of other things, though.

[jrc4558]

Mark, as usual, I am charmed at well eloquent style of yours .

However, I see a little unaccoutability in the population sample. Since we KNOW :idea:  the physical difference in the design, components, building techniques, lowpass filters etc., we can easily judge even by hearing a padeal about an approximate design and parts used. Thus even a double-blind setting will not allow for valid results. Shure, they would be reliable...

If we sample from those who DON'T KNOW :?  how to build pedals we run into a different kind of problem too. What they will hear in the store will have many distracting factors (no-one buys sound samples, they pay for pedals, right?), such as design, colours, packaging, price, etc... As we know from the phenomena of justification of an effort, the things that were harder to get are held in a higher value.

Pedals may sound the same. Boutique pedals may sound WORSE. Yes, and they often do. There are some shorcomings in the commercial units, but usually (not always, usually) they're limited to poorly bypassed signal, poor shielding, poor capacitors. They are GOOD designs, but tolerable workmanship. Thus it's ok to say that boutique is more of a manufacturing quality rather than some super-funky sounding stuff (no offence, Z. Vex, u're not among these "boutiquers") that no-one ever came up with before. There are exceptions, of course, but I'm talking about general trends.

So, back tothe sound. Human hearing is greately variable :shock:  :lol:  :oops:  :roll:  :twisted:  :wink: , changes with age and is subject to training. Thus, as Mark said an educated ear can be impaired by poor quality of the lap-top speakers and vice a versa.

...here i get too lazy and skip to the last point...

Thus, I would always resort to this phrase: sweeten according to taste.
Everybody has a right to choose and a right to opinionate. And I will not be the one to decide whether the world needs another TS clone. I'll just build one  whenever some one agrees to pay for it. :lol:

[petemoore]

"Variatiion Within Parameters" is how I titled a post on the old forum...The Fuzz Face is a good example of an effect that was 'new'.
 'The guys that did it first did it best' can be argued, certain exceptions apply...
 A
 Q  "How many ways are there to 'twist' a waveform .. that are percieved widely to be pleasant or useable, and, of those, how many have been around for 20 years?'
 We can now see most of the available information...there is a threshold or ceiling limiting variation, where small differences in a pattern of increasing complexity that illude perception in a given resolution...or...you can probably find most types of "Fuzz twisterz" [as my brother used to call any effect] available in most of the known forms or designs...if not, you can buy a record of them being used....
 Do you remember your first recollection of hearing a Fuzzed Guitar on a record? I remember just totally going into mental overload when I spun Led Zeppelin II on the 'big stereo...I ordered the album from the Military BX, we had extremely limited media...the album was the highlight of my days for weeks

[csj]

but the kerfuffle that surrounds minute changes in fairly basic circuits is silly.

I take this as your main point I couldn't agree more.

looking at what amounts to the lipstick display, with 4 or 5 basic colours finely adjusted and laid out to create the impression that there are actually 300 colours

I see this as an accurate analogy.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

The reason there are so many people making distortions is because 1. they are relatively simple (compared to an envelope follower etc) and 2. practically everybody uses one.

[Mark Hammer]

First, thanks for everyone's interest and enthusiastic replies.

I guess the point needs to be made that, as an "old fart", I take a different perspective.  My first reaction is generally going to be of the "So why do I need this, and why is what I have already not enough?" type, rather than the "Cool!!" reaction.  Without wishing to slag anyone, the tendency of much younger music afficionados will be to identify strongly with whatever new thing comes along, and feel very strongly about it, partly because of its newness, regardless of whether it represents an appreciable change from anything before it or not.  I know, I did that too, and if it were not for kids thinking that the latest is the greatest BECAUSE it is the latest, there would be no entertainment, music, cosmetics, or fashion industry.  People DO feel a need to have something of their own time and taste.  Several people who responded have indicated that perspective, and I respect it.

On the other hand, I have a bunch of different fuzzes I've bought and made - probably a couple dozen - some very different guitars to drive them, and like speakers with a wide frequency response that can detect nuances when they exist (reduce Type II errors), and despite this I routinely find myself going "Well THAT'S not too different from the last one, is it?".  I also find myself seeing yet another ad for what is obviously a TS or a Rangemaster clone, and thinking "What on earth could be different or new about this?"

My hesitancy has nothing to do with the price (I think in most instances they are generally fair market price) and it has nothing to do with any suspicions about hucksterism (I think ALL these folks sink tons of their time into making good products, and genuinely believe they have something new to offer).  It has everything to do with the feeling that maybe what we have is enough, and anything more is splitting hairs and a distraction.

But, like I said, that's an old guy's perspective.  I would be hard-pressed to convince many of you out there that we have ENOUGH music to listen to and amuse ourselves with, and can afford to stop recording new stuff.  I don't expect any more success when it comes to music gadgets.

Similarly, I say this from the perspective of someone who is often able to make the analog world bend to my will.  Some of us look at a new pedal that shows up in the ads or display case and see a new device, while others of us look, listen, and mumble "Yeah I can see how they did that.  I could change cap X and get that tone.".

I guess my point is that it is wise to consider whether enough of a difference is created by a new product/design, in comparison to one that already exists and which maybe you own, to drive yourself nuts over it.

[jrc4558]

Everything is good in moderation.

[Hal]

its becuase we live in a consumer driven, choice loving society.

I have the right to choose wheter to buy Levis, Lees or something made in China from Wal-Mart.

The Levi's may be better, but they may not.  They also come in different colors, cuts, etc.

I may wanna go and buy Jnco's, simply becuase the preppy kid down the street from me buys Levi's, and I dont wanna be like him.  And I may like the Chinese Jeans, but then again, they might be stiff, rip easily, not fit right, etc.

Ok enough analogies.  Americans (and i guess free Europeans, Australians, etc.) like choices.   Many of the reasons people buy things for are stupid, and it _does_ have a lot to do with style...

I think the best example of this is Ibanez - they have 4 Tube Screamers in production right now - the TS7, TS9, TS9DX, and TS808 reissue.  All have different appeal to different people, and usually for stupid reasons.  

But they all sell enough to cover initial production setup fees, so why not?

Thats what makes America great :-D

[phillip]

Just take look at how many different ways there are to build the simple little Fuzz Face circuit.  You can have Germanium, Silicon, Germanium/Silicon hybrid, MOSFET, JFET, adding extra control pots like the "Fuller" mods, adding clipping diodes to the output, etc, etc, etc.  

I think each one sounds a little different than the other, and then you can have extra sounds my mixing and matching the mods.  It all depends on what you want

Phillip

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

I think the best example of this is Ibanez - they have 4 Tube Screamers in production right now - the TS7, TS9, TS9DX, and TS808 reissue.  All have different appeal to different people, and usually for stupid reasons.
But they all sell enough to cover initial production setup fees, so why not?
Thats what makes America great :-D

ahhh... shouldn't that be "That's what makes ASIA great"? I doubt that many Ibanez fx are made in USA