Questions on two needed effects

[foxgemini]

I'm looking for two effects to complete my keyboard rig. I am looking at playing experimental music, and will be playing a sampler through an 88 key controller, with a digital effects processor. The idea is to replicate the style of sounds used by Mark De Gli Antoni, the former keyboardist of the former band Soul Coughing, who has been doing a good deal of soundtrack and solo work recently.

I'm looking for two effects which the Alesis module does not have, distortion and ring modulator.  I am actually unsure of whether to go analog at this point, but need some suggestions as to where to look for the following specs. I have googled extensively and not come up with anything I like.

First I need a distortion pedal which will handle a fairly high dynamic range, as well as a fairly large range of pitch.

Second, I would like to get a ring modulator which receives stereo input, rather than using a preset carrier signal. The Moog moogerfooger can not do that.

I realize this a mostly analog forum, but I did read the FAQ and see that it was highly suggested that you buy when possible. I have no experience with wiring or soldering, so making my own would be very difficult. I am willing to try...

Lastly, it will be important that I can get a good clean piano tone even with the pre-amps plugged in.

You guys all seem pretty knowledgable, and I've been reading the forum looking for some more information.  Honestly this is the best gear forum I've googled yet.

Any suggestions? If not, could you point me somewhere where they might have some suggestions?

Tim.

[Nasse]

:? Not so completely OT to talk about keyboard effects at guitar stompbox forum, because I have noticed many people here mess with analog and digital synths and all kind of audio, as a second hobby. And very interesting question for me is why some distortion boxes sound killer with guitar, but when you try to distort your cheaply imitated organ or electric piano track with that pedal it just quite does not always happen. With all those fine soft synths and plugins there is very often "distortion" option included, and they seems to work just fine.

Distortion circuits tailored for keyboards are rarely seen, so I believe. Last time I saw one was in a british(?) mag few yéars ago (mostly have stopped buying these, so no new info at me). It was done with discrete single ended fet stages, was it two or three stages.

Has anybody tried Fetzer valve or minibooster with keyboards?

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

The ring modulator is easy, just decide whether you can handle carrier bleedthru or not.
As for a "wide range" distortion, digital distortions by their nature are likely to have a flat frequency response (though, lower notes might sounde more distorted, because you can hear the distortion products, while a 10KHz tone will have its harmonics beyond what I can hear, for one. My commercial Frostwave "sonic alienator" has a digital core, but couples this with a resonant filter (which itself has some overdrive character, being OTA based).

[donald stringer]

The only dist. keyboard tones { at least to my ears } that have ever sounded good is when deep purple totaly destoyed what you would consider typical keyboard tone by plugging into marshal stacks. But that was a good thing,killer tone. But if you wanted to preserve your tone and just fatten it up go to amz and look at schem. for the moss booster/ by itself its capable of overdriving a tube amp at higher vol. or at lower vol. gives a uniqe tone. . Simple to build, so you maybe just need  a small variety of simple one knob pre-amps. Keep posting and I am sure you will finf what your looking for. I believe aron is a keyboard player .

[petemoore]

The only dist. keyboard tones { at least to my ears } that have ever sounded good is when deep purple totaly destoyed what you would consider typical keyboard tone by plugging into marshal stacks.
 Many keyboard signal outputs have harmonic content and distortion already in the waveforms, and may not be well 'accepted by a particular [or any] outboard distortion. starting off with a relatively clean input, the distortion may sound more natural.

[foxgemini]

Thanks so much guys, I realize that this is not a keyboard forum, or even a digital forum and what you've said has really helped me.

I did some more googling and looking around at Musician's Friend and I did come up with a digital solution. That is the Kurzweil Mangler, which includes distortion effects and a ring mod.

However, I am thinking that an anolog ring mod will be better. The reason is that I'm sure the effects on the mangler are as preset as the moogerfooger's are, if not more so. I am thinking it would be fun to experiment with a stereo input ring mod with stereo keyboard patches. It would take you down to mono, but I will probably be buying a mono amp anyways, unless somebody rich donates some money.

Also, I know De Gli Antoni used a home made distortion pedal on the first two Soul Coughing albums and the sound is quite distinctive.

I'm not sure what type he used, it was hell trying to find out what his rig was, and what I found was not very detailed.

For any who are interested he used an Akai S1000 controlled by a Roland A30, with an Alesis Quadraverb, running through a homemade distortion pedal.

Hmmm so this leads me to two questions: What is carrier bleed through? And... do you think that an overdrive pedal would be better for keyboard patches, in general, or mostly for fuzzy synth sounds like saw waves and such? This has turned out to be very complicated.

I'm sure if I bought the materials that my Grandpa would show me how to build good circuits, as he is a very good electronics guy. I figure he's never done audio though.

Can you point me to a schematic of a good ring mod with the specs I am looking for?

I really appreciate this guys.

I realize from the FAQ that diy isn't that cheap, but I can't see paying $250 for pedals that don't do what I want them to do. The digital option gives a very limited range of effects and again doesn't do exactly what I want. Thats $450.

Buying synth gear has turned out to be hellishly expensive. At least when I bought my piano I knew what to buy. At that time Baldwin built the best uprights in America, and so I went to the local Baldwin dealer and picked out one I liked. I took out a loan, (now payed off) and I pay a couple of times a year to have it maintained.

This is far more of a headache.

I have heard the following:

Korg and Yamaha have the best controllers, with the most piano-like touch. Some synth guys prefer a synth touch, but I do not. The best acoustic sounds are done by Kurzweil. The cleanest samplers are Akai, however many guys use a Triton LE.

After that it gets more confusing...

Anyway, I really appreciate the comments, and feel very welcomed here. Thanks guys.,

Tim.

[petemoore]

IV'E got a yamaha motiF'< {computer keyboard is acting up again pLeas excuse}
 and i think the idea of building keyboard effects is cool< something i might do more of and haven't tried much of>
 i belIeve there is enough crossover that working up KEyBOARd effects might benefit guitar effect in some indirect way anyway...you pose an interesting challenge>>>ino{one seems to have objected so far>
 MY MOTIF  has downloadable sounds I haven't tried, but there are distorted sounds that came in it, I usppose youre not getting what you want from it.
 I might suggest an amp emulator from ROG, simply because they are comparitevly quite good at sounding much like a tube amp in a box.
 If this trips your interest I could plug MOtiF THROUGH  thE sUpREAUX and the 18 AND  run some tests...guy can't even get his computer board to stop acting up... :oops:

[foxgemini]

Heh, your typing looks like mine two weeks ago when I spilled water on my keyboard. That'll teach me not to eat in front of the computer...

Or maybe you broke down your keyboard for parts, :lol:

Wow a MOTIF, sweet. Thats a very nice board. Actually the one I'm using is a Yamaha S90. I like the controller abilities and its a lot lighter than the MOTIF.  The MOTIF is obviously better for the studio, as it has all of the workstation abilities like sequencing.

Hmmm, well actually my idea is to run a sampling module through the S90 and then use real time effects. The distorted MOTIF sounds are ok on the S90, but I am looking for something a little more raw.

For jazz gigs the S90 is fine, although I have considered getting a Kurzweil brain because its acoustic piano sound is so good. Two people in my hometown are running a Kurzweil controlled by an S90 and they sound really good for jazz.

(I'm running a Roland keyboard amp and I am considering getting the subwoofer for it when I get this whole act together. That may be a while.)

What I'm wanting to do is a whole lot harsher and I hope more innovative than playing jazz. I would like to do some kind of experimental fusion where the effects play a part in the improvisation. There are people out there doing similar things in different genres, like the Chemical Brothers in the dance music scene.

Has anyone heard the first Soul Coughing album Ruby Vroom? Basically what this guy did is take a keyboard and a bunch of found and custom samples, and then play the sampler like a piano with the rhythm section, doing the majority of his effects in real time. (It may have been overdubbed, I don't have the dilly on all of this) So you get chords of sea gull crys and all kinds of crazy stuff like that.

On a later album he uses a Nord Lead II, a great analog synth, (synth touch though) and I also have a Tim Hagans album where that keyboard is run through a digital (?) ring modulator and it sounds great.

I think I would classify myself as a progressive. It seems like this forum is somewhat progressive, at least when it comes to effects.

When I say progressive though, I am thinking in terms of Miles Davis, who always wanted to push the envelope, not some kind of Journey thing with tons of strings and lyrics about hobbits.

I figure I'll either be really horrible or do something innovative and plus I'm tired of playing jazz standards all the time.

I'd love to hear what sounds you get from the Motif through the Supreaux and the 18. I'll go look up the specs on those.

If anyone objects to discussing keyboards I can stop. Pete, since you're also a keys player, do you know of a good keys forum?

Tim.

P.S. What would a stereo input ring mod do with a guitar with stereo pickups?

[aron]

>Korg and Yamaha have the best controllers, with the most piano-like touch. Some synth guys prefer a synth touch, but I do not. The best acoustic sounds are done by Kurzweil. The cleanest samplers are Akai, however many guys use a Triton LE.

To me, Yamaha has by far the best weighted piano feel now. The S90 is equal across the range, while the P80 type is lighter on the high notes and heavier on the bottom range. (Graded Hammer action).

I think Kurzweil used to be known for the best piano and acoustic sounds, but I've never found that to be the case. As far has hardware samplers, you cannot beat a PC - running EXS24 or Giga etc....

>The distorted MOTIF sounds are ok on the S90, but I am looking for something a little more raw.

Treat the S90 like a guitar. Use Guitar-like waveforms with guitar-like envelopers in your patch. Now run those envelopes through the built in effects just like a guitarist would do. Use the cabinet simulators built into the S90. You can make tons of raw sounds this way.

What Kurzweil brain are you talking about? I think the S90 piano is much better live than the Kurzweil piano (of course this is all subjective).

You should be able to get tons of raw sounds using the controllers on the S90 along with the built-in effects.

I have one and I love it for fusion leads/raw distortion sounds. It can't touch my VL1, but it's darn good.

[aron]

Tim,

I'm assuming you know how to program the S90 right? If not, dig right into the effects and play around the real-time controllers.

There's no way you need an external Alesis effects module with the S90. There's so much control you have in the board. Think about how you could get raw tones by sweeping the flanger into the distortion and by sweeping the pitch of a 2nd oscillator real-time while soloing, all the while controlling the portamento and the delay time in real time. The S90 and its brothers can be powerful.

The key to good effects usage is experimenting and knowing how to put them together.

[petemoore]

Supreeaux results...
 First it should be prelimmed: Motif into Supreaux, then into an ONKYO reciever, then into Panasonic Thrusters..not exactly gigging equip, but enough for bedroom uses.
 I get thickerness and definite nice distortion qualitlies out of the Supreaux, sounds like [I expected] a distorted amp...not wild or whacky, and for as low end as my setup is [the ONKYO and Thrusters] the Supreaux and all makes a PDNatural sounding distortion, and I'll bet whatever you use is more accomodating than a reciever's amp, and little 5'' speakers will be to being driven with a distorted/boosted signal.