ADA Schematic Redistribution - Ethics?

[travissk]

I was looking up info on the ADA Flanger, and Colin (I think) mentioned a site where he got the schematic: adadepot.com

Because the author had to pay to get some of the schems, he charges $2.50 for access to his downloads. You get one day's access, then your account is terminated. Essentially, he's just trying to make some of his investments back.

His policies are listed on his site, and I see no license that would prevent me from buying access, downloading the files, editing them up a little bit (to shrink filesize - some of them are pretty big), then sharing them for free? My "stompboxes to build" list is very long, and I don't need to take on any new projects, but at the same time, I always love to read schematics and see how things work.

I'm more than willing to make the investment for personal access alone (it's $2.50), but ideally it would be nice to have these in the collective. I see nothing wrong with that legally... in fact, if I remember my muzique article correctly, he's in copyright violation by selling access to the schematics!

On the other hand, I don't want to backstab the guy, because it isn't something I'd want done to myself if I were trying to recoup my costs. But when he purchased those schematics, he probably understood that he was paying for his access to them, and his site is just an effort to share them while making up bandwidth costs (it's 100MB!) and again, splitting the initial cost.

Since he's in the wrong already and I don't believe there's anything wrong with this, I'm leaning toward purchasing the set and editing them this weekend, but still, could any of you who have read this far (sorry for rambling! ) give me your opinion on this situation?

By the way, if anyone already has these, are they the sort of hand-drawn layout that will be pretty hard to reduce in filesize? I can host some of them, but smaller is always better. I suppose I can always redraw them in ExpressSCH.

OK - onto the list that all of you have been waiting for
- ADA Ampulator schematics (16.5 MB)
- ADA B200S schematics (5.8 mb)
- ADA B500B/G500S schematics (11.9 MB)
- ADA CCP schematics (731 kb)
- ADA Final Phase schematics (4.0 MB)
- ADA Flanger schematics (4.7 MB)
- ADA Harmony synthesizer schematics (1.5 MB)
- ADA i-series delays schematics (i.64, i1.28, i2.56) (2.4 MB)
- ADA Microcab schematics (4.0 MB)
- ADA Microtube 200 schematics (7.4 MB)
- ADA MPC schematics (2.5 MB)
- ADA MXC schematics (1.8 MB)
- ADA Quadswitch schematics (3.8 MB)
- ADA Quadtube 150M schematics (10.4 MB)
- ADA S1000 schematics (2.2 MB)
- ADA Snake series schematics (Viper, Cobra and Sidewinder(8.7 MB)

Thanks for your input,
-Travis

[travissk]

Also, it seems a good portion of these use digital effects that require the right EEPROM. My experience with PROMs is limited to burning a few; do the common copying/reading/programming devices generally work for reading in  the contents to a computer to be burned later?
-Travis

[gez]

What you're paying for is someones time.  It takes time to reverse engineer something and then draw up a schematic.

What you're suggesting is just tarting up his work (shrinking it?), not even redrawing it, then posting it.  That isn't ethical (and I think you're on thin ground legally here as technically it's still his artwork).  

The fact that many post schematics for free is nice, but very little is free in life.  Learn to live with it....

[gez]

PS  Before this turns into another one of those threads could one of the moderators kindly shift this to the Lounge.

And yes, I have just woken up and I do have a sore head SO DON'T P*ISS ME OFF!!!  :twisted: ( )

[Torchy]

If he paid for the schematics then there will be some sort of redistribution clause with the owners, a point he should make clear on his site. If there is no redistribution clause to respect then I dont see whats wrong with reposting them.

If he reverse engineered them himself (and more importantly they are accurate), the kudos to him and we should as Gez said respect his work and buy them from him. $2.50 isnt a vast amount and in this case he deserves to recoup his money.

2p-worth over, now wheres that stripped down Nano-head I found ... :twisted:

[travissk]

You are right. I would never dream of taking someone's schems that they reverse-engineered themselves.

However these are supposedly official ADA schematics. He didn't reverse-engineer and draw them, he only had to purchase them from a few places. For instance, there is a Boss CS-3 schem that -is- out there, but everyone wants $12 or so for it. If I bought that, I didn't draw it up, all I did was fork out the $12 for it. If I came here to the forum and said "I have the sought-after CS3 schem. Paypal me $2 and I'll send it to you," that is exactly what this guy is doing. I think it's copyright infringement, but still, if I were to do that I would be a little mad if someone came along, bought my schem, and said "Hey guys, here is the CS-3 schem for free!" Completely within their rights, IMO, but it would cut my income a little bit. I wouldn't go so far as to do sell stuff that doesn't belong to me in the first place, but it's just hypothetical.

There is no redistribution clause. He simply bought them from others who were charging for out-of-print schems and is trying to make some of that money back by doing the same thing at a cheaper price.

Thanks for your opinion though, I posted because I felt a little funny about  the whole issue. Just to clarify that what he is selling does not belong to him. I agree that makes a huge difference, and my apologies if my original post is a bit vague. It is not my intention to skate in the gray area.

Also, just to clarify I'm not trying to get something for free. I will be buying these one way or another for educational purposes (as I said, my list of boxes to build is a mile long already) and was wondering what is ethically right as far as giving them to you guys, because I'm sure someone would be interested in the Final Phase or Harmony Synth.

[Dirk_Hendrik]

"what he's selling does not belong to him" is not completely true.  He resells what he bought. Till that part it's ok. The nasty thing comes in the "resells over and over part". I will not be the one to judge on that since what he is selling isn't mine either. That's up to the ADA guys to decide.  Apart from that, shouldn't we complain over guys like Schematic Connection as well?

Now, I know some more about this guy. A while ago all his ADA stuff was freely downloadable...... untill the point that people "emptied" his site and started selling the stuff. I can more than imagine the guy got pretty pissed at this. In selling his stuff he's getting his investement back. What the others did was not investing anything but just selling to those who were too dumb to use the net. That's low.

By the way, anyone interested in a CD filled with morley schematics and manuals? I'll burn you one for say US$500.  Or, otherwise, download em at the morley site.

[gez]

my apologies if my original post is a bit vague

No, my apologies, I didn't read your post properly (morning stupour!).   :oops:

The whole thing seems like a can of worms so I'll decline to comment further...

[travissk]

Yes, I agree. These topics usually stir up more trouble than they're worth, and they never end in agreement once the two sides form. I'll cut it off before that happens -  I think that I won't post these things; you can read on for the full explanation but essentially all that we would use in there is the Phaser and the Flanger. The Flanger schem is already out there and I will cross-check it sometime. The harmony synth schem is only 25% complete, if that

Sorry for any trouble this thread has caused or was going to cause  

////////////

As of now, I have paid for them and viewed them. I can verify these are the official old schems; the Final Phase one I'm looking at is from 5/16/1979. The Harmony Synth is from 7/27/78. The only difference is that the site owner stamped adadepot.com on it, which I think is a no-no. He has 179 Paypal transactions, including myself, to the download accounts. $2.50 a pop. Do the math if you want and subtract out bandwidth and paypal fees, but I won't go further because it amounts to vigilante justice: "ok, let's decide if he's made enough money"



Onto the schem descriptions:

Sadly, the one I really wanted (Harmony Synth) only has the plate drilling diagrams and the input/output filters, not the main circuit. Quite unfortunate.

There are two other stompbox designs: The ADA Flanger, which we already have a schem for, and the ADA Final Phase. I can cross-check the ADA Flanger schems that are floating out there, although I know a few people have successfully built it already.

Most of the rest of the schems are for complex rackmount units. There are some interesting test procedure documents, and a real gem - a schematic for an expression pedal! . Seriously, there are a couple digital delays and amp modeling units, but I'm sure the RoG stuff is better for stompbox applications.

So essentially it all comes down to the ADA Final Phase; from what I've read of it you're better off with other phasers.

If I may suggest my two personal favorites, go for the Commonsound.com Phaseur Fleur and the EH Small Stone. The Phaseur is a great unit that is very flexible, and the Small Stone gives you that sound that only the Small Stone can.

[ExpAnonColin]

I already have all the schems if you want any.

The guy mislead me into thinking I was going to get a harmonizer schem, I didn't, I was pissed, he gave me a refund.

-Colin

P.S.-as a side note, based on his # of verified paypal payments, he's made well over his investment on these things.

[StephenGiles]

Frankly, I find all this ethics stuff a little nausiating. For heavens sake, this is supposed to be fun - and as my wife always says - "God doesn`t mind!!!" Should we not be worrying about more important things in life like exploitation of Native North, Central & South American Indians?
Stephen

[petemoore]

Stephen, I couldn't agree more, this is not OT.
 This is OT...
 With all these 'partitions' everywhere, you must burn fuel or there's no way to get through.
 I'ts really time we realized this IS Gods stuff, and he's letting us use it...er something non religious that brings us closer to understanding how to take care of gifts and share.

[DouglAss]

For heavens sake, this is supposed to be fun - and as my wife always says - "God doesn`t mind!!!"


I guess it depends on your religion.  My people are commanded not to steal (among a number of other things that can apply)
There has been quite a bit of rabbinical discussion about this very topic...I think it's a valid one as it is about our community


Should we not be worrying about more important things in life like exploitation of Native North, Central & South American Indians?
Stephen

and population growth, pollution, human rights abuses globally, and corruption in almost every segment of human endeavor.  
Given that, we should basically, not work on musical electronics.
Life, however, does continue and I feel we must cultivate strength in all levels of community - near, far,  necessity, and enrichment (that's why there is a sabbath in some religions after all -- to aid in balance and perspective on those things)

[Hairston]

Because the author had to pay to get some of the schems, he charges $2.50 for access to his downloads. You get one day's access, then your account is terminated. Essentially, he's just trying to make some of his investments back.

$2.50??! You are crying about this? Maybe if it was $25.50 for a day's access I'd question it, but $2.50, come on man.

I know this guy and I've seen the condition those schematics are in when he get's them, what a mess. He takes them to a professional document company if they are too big to scan in himself and then he even goes the extra mile and cleans them up digitally.

So the bottom line is $2.50 is a bargain for the service he is providing. I think he also sells every ADA Schematic he has on one CD for like $5. Are you telling this isn't worth it?

Also, from what I'm told, he bought these schematics directly from the original owner of the now defunct ADA, Dave Tarnowski, with permission to post. So in a way, he is the only one that has explicit permission to post them.

-HB

[travissk]

Hello Hariston,
I agree with you; I think you missed the original topic of this thread. As I said above, I was never complaining at all about the $2.50, which I was willing to pay (and I did so). I was interested in the Harmony Synth schematic, specifically for how its analog harmonizing features worked. I'm not interested in building or cloning it, just pursuing some knowledge. I didn't expect this information for free, nor do I ever feel it is my given right to have information that others have worked hard to create.

My question was that, having purchased these schematics, what people's opinions were on the ethics of giving them to forum members here that wanted them. We have lots of free schematics, and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were purchased from techs or resellers, then scanned and uploaded. As far as I can tell it is within my legal rights

If the adadepot guy has obtained (purchased?) permission to resell them, then it clarifies things a little bit, but he never states this anywhere on his site. He doesn't claim a copyright on the modifications, if any; he only says that he is charging to make back his initial investment. If that's the truth, then as Colin and I have hinted at, he has made over $450, and that doesn't include any CD sales, only one-day access to the schems. Judging from the site he created, he is doing this out of a love for ADA products, and is only charging out of necessity (bandwidth?).

That said, there are a couple things that don't make much sense - the CD has schems the downloads area does not, and the Harmony Synth schematic is very much incomplete, yet his list makes it seem like it is the full schematic. I'm not requesting my money back; I have what I paid for, I will learn from what is there, and besides, I can make more than $2.50 at work in the time it would take me to get angry and write up an email--or this post .

So again, your post is right; it's not worth getting riled up over, and just to be clear I was never angry with the prospect of having to fork out for something, especially such a miniscule amount for what is the result of many, many man-hours by a variety of parties.

I'm sorry this was a long post for such a short response, but when you read message board posts as just text, it's easy to get different tones out of them. My apologies if my original post was unclear in my question.

-Travis

[travissk]

Now, can I request that either Aron or Peter lock/remove this topic, or can all viewers respecfully just let it die?

I think things got misread/miswritten a few places along the line, and I knew when I posted that this post could erupt into another 10-page argument on ethics. Thankfully, we're still on page 1 as I type this.

While I'm still not sure what the answer to my question was, I'm content to leave it unanswered and unargued. The information I was hoping for wasn't there, and what -is- there is already available. I will double-check the Flanger schem, but some people have already succesfully built it, so it should be correct.

As for the rest of the content, trust me - it's really not worth the trouble, unless you're a diehard fan of ADA. If you are, then I'm sure you already have this set

-Travis

[StephenGiles]

Well folks, it gave me great pleasure to buy a few pirate CDs in Equador - windows XP pro - $1, and various music CDs - all for $1!!!!!
Stephen in Bonaire - hit by Hurricane Ivan last Wednesday!!

[aron]

IMO, we should be thanking this guy for making available a plethora of ADA schematics for only $2.50 a day.

When you need a schematic, what's $2.50? I've paid way more than that and man it's handy. From what you guys say it's $2.50 for complete access?

Many places seem to charge a lot more for this kind of thing. I guess sometimes we get spoiled by the "free" information we can get.