Proco Rat v/s Rodent?

[jimbob]

At the GGG site it says the Rodent is a derivitive of the Rat.. Does it say that for legal reasons or am I going to get that famous rat sound? ABout a year ago i parted out a ProCo Brat--the worst distortion pedal ever built IMHO. BUt i noticed tonight on the old board that there was a lm308n which i think is probably the same as they use in the Rat..

Question is- Is there a diff between the lm308n versus the lm308

AND

Is the Rodent the same as the Rat?

[niftydog]

Is there a diff between the lm308n versus the lm308

nope.

Is the Rodent the same as the Rat?

pretty much.
Rat
Rodent

[jimbob]

Great! thanks! I appreciate your time.

[Mark Hammer]

It is common for projects to have names that are humorous derivatives of the name of the original pedal it is based on.  The reason is simple: it is inappropriate and illegal to pass off something as being one thing (i.e.,  a product made by company X) when it is not.  That's the whole reasoning behind copyright law, patent protection, plagiarism rules, and a wide variety of fraud-like actions, both small-time (one-off pedals) and big-time (DVD or MS-Office bootlegs).

The extent to which any of the projects drawn to our collective attention here are "just like" the original is an interesting question.  In many instances, even the original is not "just like the original".  For example, reverse engineering a germanium transistor-based device may tell you all the part names, numbers, etc., but the component to component variation in some of the key parts may well guarantee that it will take many many builds until one produces something that nails a tone heard on a favourite recording known to be using that pedal.  

This is certainly one of the realities of the game of trying to resurrect the past.  Fact is, the past had much wider tolerances and less consistent supplies of components, and nobody ever kept a record of where things fell within those tolerances.  The more recent the original came into or remained in production, the greater the likelihood that regular guys like you and I can replicate the parts and sound of the circuit (barring any exotic forms of component selection).

Of course, with the exception of some boutique places, few people ever use tight tolerance components (still), and variations in key passive and active components can make a difference in bandwidth, gain, etc., which the circuit may well be sensitive to.  Add to this the fact that VERY few of us have ever sat down with hundreds of copies of a production pedal and listened to every single one in an effort to identify what remains constant about the sound across variations in component tolerances.  At best, we've heard a couple of sound samples, and maybe tried one at a friend's or in a music store.  I strongly doubt many people would have the latitude to walk into a music store and try out every copy of every single Tube Screamer variation a store had (TS-808 reissue, Maxon reissues, TS-9, TS-10/7/5)....even on a Wednesday morning!

Many of the designs posted are attempts to build in tailoring capability or features beyond what an original might have had.  It is common that one plays a pedal, mumbles "Nice, but I wish it could..." and then figures out what would make it do that.  In some instances, that may well change the original design parameters, but in other cases it may retain everything about the original design, or provide a way to nail the original when the controls are set just so, even though it includes things that were not part of the original.

So, CAN the Rodent sound "just like" a Rat?  Sure.  Will it always do so, no matter who builds it or what parts they use?  Not terribly likely.  Does a Rat always sound one way?  Not likely.  It is a gain-by-input dependent device, and plenty of things will affect the input signal level, and the amount of gain internal to the pedal, producing small but audible differences in sound.  As Kurtis Blow once said "These are the breaks".

[RDV]

I built a Rodent with a RTS PCB from GGG, O.K.? It sounds very good, but not exactly like my Rat2 I bought back in the 80's. I built it as a present for my 13 yr old son, and he dig's it, so that's what matters. It's got a Neil Young fuzz thing happening big time, and the Millenium 1+ worked perfect with no delay or pops. I need take it apart & paint it and stuff. If I do, I'll post some pictures.

RDV

[martinbertrand]

I built the GGG rodent and it sounds the same as my rat2 ( as my ears can tell!). The overtones it produces are very interresting and the wide range of distortion from clean to over the top makes it a pedal I can use in different situations. You can see a picture here http://pages.infinit.net/bluezone/jackson.htm

I called it "Rot" (french for burp)

A backdraw I have for this pedal is the loss in bass. Since I use it mostly with the 335, It still has enough.

[petemoore]

I've seen pedals get bad review, with the user sat in a chair, out of reach of the amps control knobs.
 Some amps just don't like heavy distortion pedals.
 I can see where one could reasonably make the case on a misbiased FF pedal that it is'nt 'good', but most of these newer production pedals are probably at least 'usable' to someone...most can probably be improved with tweeking, and using 'better' opamp, [if it doens't have a 'better' one in it already].
 Tone is a very subjective item, and ears as well as component values may have wide variances, certainly any testing done by 'you' doesn't necessarily apply to 'my' guitar and amp...really to make a point that a pedals performance is disappointing, the entire test condition should be included...what pickups, what amp, what else was used, what condition the cables are in, the battery voltage level,...most of what we read in reviews is not anything near what I'd call 'laboratory test conditions', where EVery thing else is controlled and 'same same'.
 ROG's 'pretty guitar' and 'cab sim' is a pretty level playing field for effects testing.
 I think most of us agree and are aware that these inconsistancies exist, and weigh this with or against content in reviews.

[Mark Hammer]

Martin,

CHALICE!! Le T-Special est beau!  Je suis très jalous.

[Aharon]

I've seen pedals get bad review, with the user sat in a chair, out of reach of the amps control knobs.
.

I have never read or heard a "truer" truth,ever.
Aharon

[strungout]

Mark:  :shock: ....... :lol:

Pis, juste un "bienvenu au forum" a un autre Quebecois!

[Mark Hammer]

Strungout,

Toi aussi.  J'ai parti du Montréal pour l'école il y a longtemps, mais je suis né au coeur du Montréal, et j'ai fait mes études secondaires à Chomedey (a ce temps la, on avait presque 3000 étudiants, probablement le plus grande école secondaire au Québec), et ma CEGEP et baccalauréat au Montréal.

Martin,

Connais-tu Gilles Caron, le vraie "M. Clean" du Québec :wink: ?  Nous avons rencontré quelques fois, ici à Ottawa, et a Québec.  Vraie bon gar.  Son guitare-steel Johnson, et ton T-Special me ferait trés trés contente.

Mike Irwin (Vsat) habitte au Québec aussi (province, et pas la ville), à Shawville.

[martinbertrand]

Yes Mark, you are right!  The T-Special is a great - and one of a kind. I never hoped that I could own this kind of guitar: ebony fingerboard, maple top, gibson style neck, top notch finish. plays great too    

Yes I've noticed Mr Caron lives near Québec, but never managed to meet him.  :oops:  That would be nice.

Hello Strungout!
do you play in a band I could hear near québec ?

[jimbob]

Mark--It sounds to me like there are too many variables to acurately say, "yes, It sounds the same." So the factory ones probably didnt consistantly sound exactly the same. With the better parts (tolerences ect..) out there today versus back then there might be some variations in sounds as welll.
Also Petemoore was saying that amp controls, amp types also makes a difference.. I know my amp sounds great with a limited number of distortions.. Thus, adding to the number of ways a Rat/Rot/ may sound different.

Did I sum this up correctly? It was a quick / brief summation.

[strungout]

Mark: yes, you had mentioned that to me a few months ago, hehe.

Martin: nah. Thad be alot of fun tho, but a stage is not for me. Yet.