making/selling your own designs

[badperson]

Two part question;

1. how many of you guys sell your stompboxes and
2. if you were going to sell, say a distortion pedal, what differences would it need to have from say, a fuzzface in order for you to consider it your own design and not a clone?

bp

[smashinator]

1.  We are everywhere.  

2.  That is the big can o' worms around here.  Search for 'ethics.'  AMZ (www.muzique.com) has an article about cloning that touches on the subject.

[StephenGiles]

There have been numerous threads on this subject which usually end up with somebody being offended, or was that over at Group DIY?
Stephen

[mlabbee]

I'd be happy to sell my boxes, if there was interest and I could make enough money to be worth the effort.

As for the "own/clone" distinction, I think people spend far too much time thinking about this - most conventional effects use conventional circuit designs (see the vast array of TS designs) and make minor mods to effect changes to the sound or satisfy certain "mojo" requirements.  I'd say the real test should simply be the sound . . . if it sounds like a TS, who cares what the circuit looks like?  If it sounds completely outrageous and new, who cares if it's nothing more than a slight mod to a TS design?  Obviously, the big companies have no compunctions about marketing a standard effect design as their own, so why should you?

[Paul Marossy]

Peter Snowberg, where are you?! He needs a link to your stompbox production calculator thingie.  

You have to produce quite a few of those things to make a profit. Not an easy road, even if you have something awesome. But, I suppose, if you have no debt at all and lots of time...

[Gnome]

In the tube-amp world designs have been reused all the time. The good old Marshalls were just Fender amps with small modifications. And all the high-gain amps you find today are either modded, og based on modded Marshall amps.

I remember someone said to me that some brand just built a Fender output stage with a preamp from another brand, I think it was Bogners first amp or something. So I can't say why anyone sould be upset if you took for example a FuzzFace, modded it so it could suit you better then sold it as your own.

Know this isn't amps but, David Paiche said once: " I don't mins...stealing from the best"

[jimbob]

From what ive read- I think a person would be more likely playing it safe working for minumum wage part time jobs than go into that line of work. Sounds like a dream job but after you read all the crap about trying to make it you think differently. I did anyway..Besides, it sounds stressfull..esp whe you catch wind someones trying to rev your stuff.. Remember the Teese thread a little while back about having to feed his kids ect..?

[Lonestarjohnny]

The Music Business for most is Lean to downright mean, I've seen a few guy's that designed some of this stuff  that died penniless, not a heartwarming thought,
and I've seen a few that had the capitol in pocket when thet started and they are doin fine,
If you have a good product, they will be a market for it, but if it's just a byproduct of an idea that has already been beat to death, your only foolin yourself,
original idea's sometime don't make any money the very first few year's,
now no matter where you look there are new handbuilt tube amp's for sale, and I know if I open 1 up I'll instantly know who's circuit it is or was,
that's not meaning there is not a market for handbuilt, optimum hand selected part's that improve tone and music content,
it's just a tuff life trying to make that elusive dollar from a bunch of guy's that don't make much money gigging in the first place =
Broke Musician's !  :lol:
Johnny

[smashinator]

.... Which is why you should therefore aim for the affluent, middle-aged guys who only play in their bedroom/basement/whatever.  

You don't have to sell hype, but as is the case in every small business you should really market to the top 10%, at least at first.  Once you have a solid base you can start making stuff for the unwashed masses.   :wink:

So, if you're making another tube screamer, you might as well put it in a nicely finished wood box (lined with copper insulating tape, naturally), use high-end components, and sell it to rich guys who'll never take it out of the living room for $300.  You don't even have to hype it up, if that makes you feel like a cheat.  

[Lonestarjohnny]

I apologize for not knowing any middle age rich guy's that play guitar,
All my Friend's are Deadbeat Musicians,  :lol:
Johnny

[bobbletrox]

Like any product, guitarists don't buy circuits, they buy ideas.

[smashinator]

All my Friend's are Deadbeat Musicians,  :lol:

Mine too.  Give them good deals (if they're close, personal friends), then meet the rich guys and charge them as much as you can.  

[RDV]

If music stores had to rely on profits made soley from working(deadbeat) musicians there wouldn't be any music stores. Music stores make there money 4 ways:

1. Rich guys, buying ego rigs to gather dust.
2. School band instruments.
3. Church P.A. installations
4. Mommys buying Jr. a nice new guitar(& amp).

There are a few others, but these are the biggies.

RDV

[mxr2000]

Ok who can built for me a MXR distortion+ copy from scratch or mod a Dunlop MXR Distortion+ reisue to original spects.?

[RDV]

Ok who can built for me a MXR distortion+ copy from scratch or mod a Dunlop MXR Distortion+ reisue to original spects.?

Almost everyone here.

RDV

[Paul Marossy]

You're better off trying to sell life insurance or something else.
Anytime you try to sell a product, there is someone else trying to do the same thing you are, and they will sell it for less than you. On top of that, most full-time professional musicians (that I have known) live hand to mouth and have no extra money. Heck, even some of the big names (in jazz-rock fusion anyway) don't even make that much money, even with 20 albums out there. It's like trying to sell a Lexus to someone on welfare... (no offense to anyone on welfare).


Finding a niche market is probably your best bet. IMO, Z. Vex has found a niche market, and it seems to be working out well for him. (selling things that make weird noises to famous musicians)

[cd]

If music stores had to rely on profits made soley from working(deadbeat) musicians there wouldn't be any music stores. Music stores make there money 4 ways:

1. Rich guys, buying ego rigs to gather dust.
2. School band instruments.
3. Church P.A. installations
4. Mommys buying Jr. a nice new guitar(& amp).

There are a few others, but these are the biggies.

RDV

Don't forget lessons - for some stores, I would put that at #1 or #2.

[RDV]

Don't forget lessons - for some stores, I would put that at #1 or #2.

Well yes, but I was speaking from a retail standpoint.

RDV

[mlabbee]

The biggest mistake that you can make is assuming your market is working musicians.  Guitar Center and all the other chains are obviously quite successful - even if working musicians could afford to spend mega bucks at these places, there aren't enough working musicians to support them. Obviously, the revenue is coming from somewhere else, right?  Trust me, Zvex is not selling a lot of $300 effects boxes to working musicians - he is selling them to lots and lots of basement musicians with another source of income that allows them to maintain their toy habit.

This goes to the root of why so many businesses fail - poor understanding of the market.  I'm willing to bet that 95% or more of the revenue in the music hardware industry comes from people who make absolutely no money from music.  If you want to sell stompboxes, choose a market segment and market to that segment.  Zvex is a great example of this.

[Mark Hammer]

Many of the folks here who sell stuff often do it because a) they like building enough that they've got more pedals than they can use (or afford batteries for!), b) they figure they can parlay sales of boxes at very modest prices into money for parts to try out more stuff.  Sometimes we can add reason c)  have something to show their wife/girlfriend/partner that it isn't ALL just money down the toilet.

That's certainly different than building and selling with the intent to derive a source of income from it.  If an income is your intention, there are many here that could tell you that it takes an enormous investment of time, money, and intestinal fortitude to squeeze a "real" income out of this.

The other alternative is that you cultivate a reputation around town as a guy who can mod things to others' specs, clone something that is otherwise hard to find in your region (...at any price), and maybe once in a while turn out something truly different in its approach.  Get known by studios in town as a guy who can pervert some of the in-house effects they have (though these days, I suspect they all have software plug-ins to do all that) to yield distinctive sounds that might give them an edge with local musicians.  And so on.

Will it provide you a living?  Not at all.  Will it be a dependable source of income to supplement other things?  Yeah, probably.  And as an alternate supplemental income, you won't have to approach it with any desparation, and can take or leave jobs as the need suits you, or as your curiosity dictates ("Sure......I can...repair....that Bi-Phase for you").

There's a big difference, as well, between building a clone for someone you know, who KNOWS it's an attempt to nail a sound, and leaving units for sale at the store that all aim to replicate a sound, and whose packaging and promo B.S. tries to persuade a customer you'll never see that it's "just like" product X without invoking the litigious wrath of the company or person that actually makes product X.  One-offs that reflect where you're at right now are different than "being in business".