making/selling your own designs

[ragtime8922]

I'm not faulting fulltone for 100% definately stealing the fatboost. It's the whole manner in whixh they did it.

      #1 - Give credit where credit is due. Throw AMZ a bone here. The
             3.3 uF cap alone buried them.

      #2 - If they weren't going to be man enough to give credit to Jack
             then at least keep quiet and say nothing. Instead, they have an
             ad that rips on the garage/DIY guys! That my friend, sealed the
             deal and shows, without a shadow of a doubt, the true colors of
             the man behind Fulltone.

I'm new to the forum but have been a diy effects guy for a long time. This opinion of mine was developed long before joining this forum. I wasn't surprised to see that it was a touchy subject but am, however, surprised that there isn't atleast a 90 - 95% of it's members supporting Jack on this.
The stuff that I've read from Jack was pretty mild. He seems to be a real nice guy about it but just made a simple point. Very professional IMO. I, however, have to let out a bit more of the frustration. (Sorry guys, I'm an Italian guy who had food put on my table from the unions since birth. It's about what's right here.)

      Jack, you're the man! No matter what the opinions are there is one fact that will stand forever. The Fulltone Fatboost will always have an asterisk in front of it.

                                                Thank you,
                                                           Chris Roberto

[ragtime8922]

that's a big accusation... I mean, I'm not naeeve, but still, the booster flltone makes that people say he stole from jack... well, the I dea has been around for decades, and even found in some russian book from the '80s... musical minds think alike... and besides, It's not fair designing a cookbook building block pedal, and then pi**ing off when someonr else is doing the same thing... (not to offend any body here)... take for example the AMZ MOSFET booster - people are saying that Z.Vex stole the design for it's SHO... but, it is a basic booster, naturaly many other will share some similaraties (did get that word right? ...)

Phorhas, are you kidding me? I have no problem with "similar" and simple booster stuff that is always going to be similar. Look at the app note you are referring to, now look at the minibooster, now look at the FOOLtone Fatboost.

      Minibooster vs. app note = similar (with no values being the same)

      FOOLtone   vs. app note = EXACT (or outright car jacked)

I need to introduce myself to Jack. See, now I'm all worked up...lol. I'd love to market a pedal called the Phatboost with the most honest ad you've ever seen...right down to the root. It will also explain that Jack gets the profits because it's the right thing and that Fulltone should do the same....lol. Jack seems like too nice of a guy to let me do such a thing though...

     

[Paul Marossy]

If you want to keep your own circuit a secret, don't ever share it with anyone or make a pedal for anyone else. That pedal will find it's way into the hands of someone who can make a schematic of it. And certainly DO NOT POST IT ON THE INTERNET!!

This of course is pretty much impossible to comply with. At least when you sell a product, it becomes impossible. Some unscrupulous individual somewhere is going to copy it with some slight tweaks or they will downright steal it and claim that it is their own. I know that this has happened to Jack Orman and Z. Vex, the latter being by a big corporation. You can cover it with goop to try to conceal the circuit, but sooner or later, it will end up on the internet somewhere, and it might actually be correct.

Bottom line is that you can't trust anyone to not take your design and make it into a commercial pedal. That's one thing that I like about this forum - people share their creations, I build it and in many cases, it sounds better than the pedals I can buy that are commericially manufactured. But, anyone of us can get ripped off, too.

[ragtime8922]

I agree Paul. Putting it out for all to see opens doors. I just think there is a code and if you do copy something keep quiet untill asked about (if you don't come out right away) and then be a man about it. Don't take the next step and rip on the garage guys and diy-ers.

      I'm sorry. I'm not trying to cause a big disagreement. Just putting my thoughts out there.

[Paul Marossy]

I agree with you ragtime8922
Unfortunately, human nature is many times pretty bad...

[mlabbee]

OK, ok, BUT I think the question is...  hold on, an old stupid urban mith springs to my mind:
You buy a matress, you take it home, put it on your bed, you rip off that big bothering label, you read the label that says DO NOT REMOVE, and then 4 cops kick your door down, make you kiss the matress and take you straight to jail. So, will this happen if I happen to sell a TS-9 clone?
Will the cops have "Ibanez" written on their caps?
Will they take the trouble to get hold of one of my pedals, take the screws off, decript the circuit, search for prints, interrogate my buyers, track me down, and find my Duff-cave?
                                 
You´ll find out on the next Duff post.

I'm sure this subject has been beaten to death on this forum, but the simple answer to this question is "no."  Ibanez could only come after you if:
1) You actually copied their pc board exactly;
2) You actually called your device a "Tube Screamer";
3) Ibanez had a patent on the circuit (which they don't).

It would be virtually impossible to protect a circuit desgn without a patent.

[Phorhas]

Phorhas, are you kidding me? I have no problem with "similar" and simple booster stuff that is always going to be similar. Look at the app note you are referring to, now look at the minibooster, now look at the FOOLtone Fatboost.

Minibooster vs. app note = similar (with no values being the same)

FOOLtone vs. app note = EXACT (or outright car jacked)

I didn't meen defend fooltone... my opinon of them isn't good, and Jack - is the man (well, he is in group with other super stpombox heros - you know who I'm talking about)

I meant that many crkts are similar, especialy the simple ones.

BTW - what do you think of ripping yoursekf off LOL like marshall's trash master and metal master (I think) which are the same crkt with differant clipping diodes... I guess putting a switch isn't that much of a money maker... b*sterds

[davebungo]

OK, ok, BUT I think the question is...  hold on, an old stupid urban mith springs to my mind:
You buy a matress, you take it home, put it on your bed, you rip off that big bothering label, you read the label that says DO NOT REMOVE, and then 4 cops kick your door down, make you kiss the matress and take you straight to jail. So, will this happen if I happen to sell a TS-9 clone?
Will the cops have "Ibanez" written on their caps?
Will they take the trouble to get hold of one of my pedals, take the screws off, decript the circuit, search for prints, interrogate my buyers, track me down, and find my Duff-cave?
                                 
You´ll find out on the next Duff post.

I'm sure this subject has been beaten to death on this forum, but the simple answer to this question is "no."  Ibanez could only come after you if:
1) You actually copied their pc board exactly;
2) You actually called your device a "Tube Screamer";
3) Ibanez had a patent on the circuit (which they don't).

It would be virtually impossible to protect a circuit desgn without a patent.

Ibanez is an interesting example - anyone ever see one of their "lawsuit" guitars - someone brought a very nice Ibanez Ricky 4001 bass into work for repair just last week.

[bobbletrox]

Folks should just come to terms with the fact that every circuit they design is going to basically be freeware unless they patent it.  If you think you're going to rely on the kindness of strangers to keep you in business, then you have no business being in business.  Hey...it's capitalism 101!

That said...there is much more to selling a pedal than just it's basic circuit, just like there's a lot more to selling pie than the recipie (there are many products that come off the same production line and it's only the brand and the marketing associated with the brand that seperates it from its competitors).

[bobbletrox]

Wow...I sound like Donald Trump :?

[toneman]

Title of this is "new design".
Do U have a "new" design...??
or is it a mojo-mod-booteek revisited?
Doesn't matter.
If it sounds great(& looks cool) , someone wil buy it.
MayB more than one.
Will Ibanez visit U???
Only if U sell a 1000.
Maybe IRS 2....
staysoldering
tone

[Phorhas]

I think the IRS care way more than Ibanez of what's going on on the workbench

[petemoore]

So...obvious question...
 How does one make or find the list of circuits that are outside the domain of copyright laws?
 FF, IIUC, the basic 2Q feedback amp was posted in an early transistor sales brochure...
 MU amps are in transistor 'guides' [wording].
 What about DIST+ clones and TS types, how far from the original circuit must one go to avoid any copyright litigation?
 This to me is the 'squirmy' side of DIY, I get a touch irked just thinking/reading about these things. Grey areas, lawyers, infringements, litigant funding...seems 'messy'.

[Hal]

Duff - I know it wasn't your point, but those labels ususally say "not to be removed, except by the consumer"

And no - unless you make it big and obvious.  Think if it like Kazaa, because thats more what its like-copyright infringement

[runmikeyrun]

I've built a handful.  I sold one upon request.  I don't have the time to make pedals for people upon request or to a deadline.  I try to make my pedals one offs, that is not to build multiple pedals of the same design.  I use common circuits modified to my own particular tastes and put them unique enclosures (follow the link at the bottom for examples) and then i basically just sit on them.  I like my designs too much to sell them, and at the same time i would feel terrible if i sold someone something and then it broke.  

As for my schematics, i post them freely on my website.  I don't advertise the link to it or anything and enough people end up finding them.  If i sold my pedals regularly i think i would definitely not post them.  There are people who bitch about how simple a design is and what a ripoff it is for the price (the pot, TSA) but then there are people who want what the effect does and not want to/don't know how to build it.

The engineer at the local studio loves them and said i should leave them there for people to use and admire and i think i will do so, better in use than sitting in my basement collecting dust.

[mlabbee]

On the copyright issue - it would be very, very difficult to enforce any copyrights in a circuit design.  You can enforce a copyright on an actual pc board layout, but that's a very different thing than a circuit.