Why fear perfing large circuits?

[Transmogrifox]

I have been noticing a common occurence of people asking for perf/pcb layouts, and approaching it from the perspective that they couldn't build the circuit without.  Many have also been turned off to building a circuit because it's "too large to perf".

I simply can't relate.  Perfing doesn't require much more than some simple meticulous attention to detail and what I call "modular testing".   I don't just build a big perf circuit expecting it to work the first time---then try to troubleshoot it after I'm all finished (since 90% it DOESN'T work).  Build, say, the input buffer stage, turn it on, connect a jack and see if that works--then build the next "module", like for distortion, the clipping stage, see if it works.  Keep moving through the circuit methodically, from the schematic, connecting one junction at a time thinking ahead about how and where to place things to keep minimal jumpering.  When you find a section that doesn't just "meet up" right, then make an insulated wire jumper to interconnect.  A few more tips: keep soldering heat duration minimal on IC's, transistors, and particularly MOSFETs, let them cool after soldering each lead, and lay out your circuit so that it's easy to desolder and replace the IC's if you accidentally damage them.

This is just a note of encouragement to you all who fear perfing on the fly: you CAN do it. Don't miss out on some great guitar effects due to what you think you can't do.  

I had some messy circuits, and some bad outcomes to start, but it came together after building a few things and my circuits are cleaning up a lot anymore.

Certainly use perf layouts where you can since it will help you learn how to lay things out better, and make the project go faster...but if you're going to DIY, you need to be patient with yourself.  The only 2-hour build projects you'll ever have are 1 transistor boosters and maybe a 3 transistor fuzz.

Now if you're feeling offended or attacked, please don't. This post is meant to encourage those of you who are intimidated by large perf projects to give one a try, not to shame you for not trying.

This was motivated by reading the resurrected woody thread by Hammer.  That circuit looks like an easy 10-hour project from the first circuit component to completed enclosure (at my pace)...but then again it may only take 6-8 hours, but not much less than that.

[cd]

I perf everything.  Truth be told most of the time I can't be bothered to etch a board (let alone lay one out, or get a layout from somewhere and iron one on) - find chemicals, heat up tank, wash, polish, etc. etc.  Especially if it's just a one-off small project, or even something larger (like a chorus or delay) - I would rather dive in and work with the parts, rather than wait around for chemicals.

The way I like to work with perf, I use a known good schematic (or circuit simulation), then put the parts in and triple check before I solder anything.  I lay out a portion of the circuit at a time (say one buffer stage, one distortion stage, etc.) as I go along.  Of course, planning things out BEFORE you put any parts in helps a great deal - I generally keep all ground points to the outside edge of the perfboard, or if I'm using stripboard (another favorite) one strip.

[bwanasonic]

I would also offer this tip:

Print out your layout and hilite  or *check mark* connections as you finish them. I often print out a reverse/*flopped* image of the layout to orient myself when looking at the board *trace side up*.  

One thing to consider is that while you may want to perf a larger circuit once, you will most likely NOT want to do it twice or more.

Kerry M

[Stu]

The trouble is that perfing leaves you with a bigger piece of hardware to attempt to squeeze into a box... I've had to seriously mess with finished projects to get them close to fitting in a small box that i prefer to use to keep all my pedalboard neat and easy to use. I perf almost everything but the definite advantage is the speed in which it's built (who wants to drill 200 holes before they can even solder a component), i reckon each method has it's place and for big projects that i wanna have in box i end up bothering to etch them cos i know that i'll actually be able to use the finished product.


Stu

[Transmogrifox]

Good legitimate answers.  My main point is simply not to let a lack of a layout or equipment to etch stop you from building circuits you really want.  Perfing isn't that bad, and I completely agree that there are advantages to PCB's in terms of time and energy.  I still perf everything so far.

[PB Wilson]

Excellent points. Now I'm inspired to build myself some more perfed projects. I've already completed a bunch of them (NPN Boost, NVN Tone Dog, Harmonic Jerkulator, Highway 89, Ruby, and a Whisker Biscuit, with an UglyFace and Double D in the works) and the only project that I didn't get to work successfully was on a PCB. Onwards!

[SirPoonga]

Well, there are many reasons for people to be cautious when doing a large circuit on perf.

1) Not knowing how much perfboard to use.  If you plan on putting it in a certain size enclosure it takes work to plan that out.

2)  The person just wants to build the circuit.  Someone else probably built the circuit before.  Why reinvent the wheel?.  For me, I don't know the "modules" of stompbox circuits.  That doesn;t stop me from trying to build one.  I've done this with my parallel port 40x2 LCD dispaly.  I don't understand why the schematic was layed out the way it was, it just worked.  Therefore if someone else posted the layout it makes it easier for someone who just wants to build the effect to build it.  No need to play around with cap values and so forth.  That's why I like runoffgroove.

[ESPm2M]

I started with PCBs because they were readily available and exceptionally easy to work with.  I purchased a couple from GGG.  Lately I have been perf-ing more because it is far less expensive and, as Transmogrifox pointed out, it really isn't that bad to work with if you don't mind putting more time and care into the process.

As for etching your own boards - is the effort/cost ratio satisfying?

[SirPoonga]

Actually, lately I've been taking the PCB layouts and using those as a starting point for perfing.  Many of the more simple projects don't require much change.  The more complcated ones might require some jumpers.

[MartyMart]

I've perfed everything so far, funny thing is, i've had problems with "simple" circuits and almost none with the bigger builds !
I probably take more time over the bigger circuits !
Perfing from a schem can be fiddly, hurrah for ROG and all those kind folk who draw "layouts"  !!!
Just started using "pad per hole" and "stripboard"  so the jury's out.

Marty.

[petemoore]

I'm in the middle of a 6 stage phazer...
 Right now I'm in the 3rd 'uh oh' stage... :?
 Shouldn't be so hard, I'm pretty sure the part of it I'm messing up I did at least once before when I perfed the phaze 90.
 Tricky  wickets like these are a little harder to cypher...kind of end up writing a 'memory layout sheet' [since there's no paper trail for my layout]...one gets better at this after a few tries.,
 Here's a few tricks I use
 On something like the PHazer I'm doing
 Start with a board that's too big
 Linear OA phase stagings...left to right, across the board
 Make sure there's room for the PS and LFO sections 'somewhere
 I'm socketting all the staging caps, they're all  east-west, others are all North-South. Vertical or horizontal mounting of caps can be used to identify them.
 Color Coded wire...make up you're own code, or:
 Blue=input
 Black= Ground
 Red= V+
 Orange= output
 Yellow=  to/from gain knob
 The other trick??? If it's a whomper like this thing...Get a PCB if you can for it !!!,...lol.

[MartyMart]

I'm in the middle of a 6 stage phazer...
 Right now I'm in the 3rd 'uh oh' stage... :?
 Shouldn't be so hard, I'm pretty sure the part of it I'm messing up I did at least once before when I perfed the phaze 90.
 Tricky  wickets like these are a little harder to cypher...kind of end up writing a 'memory layout sheet' [since there's no paper trail for my layout]...one gets better at this after a few tries.,
 Here's a few tricks I use
 On something like the PHazer I'm doing
 Start with a board that's too big
 Linear OA phase stagings...left to right, across the board
 Make sure there's room for the PS and LFO sections 'somewhere
 I'm socketting all the staging caps, they're all  east-west, others are all North-South. Vertical or horizontal mounting of caps can be used to identify them.
 Color Coded wire...make up you're own code, or:
 Blue=input
 Black= Ground
 Red= V+
 Orange= output
 Yellow=  to/from gain knob
 The other trick??? If it's a whomper like this thing...Get a PCB if you can for it !!!,...lol.

Oh Oh, six stages  !
I'm just about to try the EA Tremolo !!!
my first "wobble box"
Good luck Pete !
My code:
Green-in
Orange-out
Black-ground
Red- +9v
White-Pots

Marty :wink:

[STOMPmole]

I agree that it isn't THAT difficult to perf a large project.  What I don't understand though is, why?  It seems to me that it's SO much easier just to etch a PCB with the 'iron-on' method.  

If you're doing it purely out of cost savings I understand how perfing might be the way to go.

If you can afford to buy (or already have) a drill press and bit, chemical etchant, access to a laser printer and iron, and about 20 minutes you can transfer, etch, and drill a board to completion.  IMO its MUCH EASIER to make a PCB for a complex project and it saves time overall since it typically works when you first connect the battery (saving the time that it would usually take to troubleshoot a perfboard).  -Then there's also the advantage of having a compact, neat, layout with the PCB method.

-Just my 2cents.

[petemoore]

I agree that it isn't THAT difficult to perf a large project.  What I don't understand though is, why?  It seems to me that it's SO much easier just to etch a PCB with the 'iron-on' method.  

If you're doing it purely out of cost savings I understand how perfing might be the way to go.

If you can afford to buy (or already have) a drill press and bit, chemical etchant, access to a laser printer and iron, and about 20 minutes you can transfer, etch, and drill a board to completion.  IMO its MUCH EASIER to make a PCB for a complex project and it saves time overall since it typically works when you first connect the battery (saving the time that it would usually take to troubleshoot a perfboard).  -Then there's also the advantage of having a compact, neat, layout with the PCB method.

-Just my 2cents.

When are 2 cents like this very valuable??...when you need to use them and have 'em.

[StephenGiles]

Clearly, what is best for the individual is what he feels happiest working with. Maybe you are worried what someone else will say about an effect in a bloody great case because it was built on stripboard (Veroboard - my preferred method) - be honest!!! Frankly it really doesn't matter. I have seen some amazing looking home brewed stompboxes on this site and racked units over at Prodigy pro, but not everyone is comfortable with that quality of work. In fact I think my stripboard ADA Flanger is smaller than the board for the real thing - and I always do my bootleg CD inserts in black & white!!!!
Stephen

[petemoore]

Well if you're using a proven PCB layout, the chances of having a funny tick or other 'glitcha' is less likely.
 I have a tick in my phaze 90, it's on perf, doesn't bother me too bad because it's not rediculously loud, just noticable when I'm not playing for the most part. Would it not be ticking if I'd used shorter wires here and there and a PCB?  :?:
 I do know that when it comes to complex builds, and builds with high parts count, the chances of getting a miswire is multiplied by x amount, using a PCB greatly reduces the chances of a miswire.
 Now...FINDING the 'touchingness', missing wire, or missed resistor value in a rats nest of perf [like this 6 stage phazer I'm about to go after again here in a minute] is a real time consuming chore I'd greatly perfer be able to just do without, and have a properly wired phazer...I could have used a PH90 PCB, and perfed the couple extra phaze stages, and put them on a bypass switch...that's a whole nuther post...

[lightningfingers]

I'm in the middle of a 6 stage phazer...
Right now I'm in the 3rd 'uh oh' stage...  

Know that feeling, me and my buddy have embarked on amission to build the worlds biggest (read "most stages") phaser, with a view to havinge between 22-28 stages, I simply built the 2 buffers and im testing after every 2 stages, im up to 14 and it sounds quite cool for now....

[petemoore]

Geving me the chukcles.

 Tha'ts funny, excuse me for laughting, I actually think that's admirably cool.
 I dont wanna dim your spirits but...for those of you building along at home..you did read there are limited returns on additional phase stages after a c'ertain point?