Replacing a TS7 switch...

[Cabezahead]

Hey guys - first post here...  I got an Analog Man modded TS7 on eBay awhile back and really really like the sound I get out of it...

The problem is, as has been well-discussed here, is the switch reliability...

I was just wondering if there's a switch that I can drop into the TS7 that's more reliable...  I'm not looking for a true bypass mod, neccesarily... Just something to make the switch more reliable...  Anyone?  Anything?

Thanks!

-CH

[bean]

I have a similar problem with my (un-modded) TS-10. I would love to replace the switch or even put the whole thing in a new enclosure.

[AL]

Small Bear Electronics has a drop in replacement for the TS-5/7 models. Not sure about the TS-10. There have been articles posted (somewhere) about taking out the switch and necessary circuitry and replacing it with a more durable Carling. It may be in the archives somewhere.

AL

[Cabezahead]

Been searching...  Can't find any more info - anyone else know anything about the Small Bear drop in thing?

-CH

[Mark Hammer]

The FET switching used in ANY of the Boss, DOD, an Ibanez pedals (to name but a few) does not route any audio through the footswitch itself.  The switch is simply two wires that allow for a connection to be grounded.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHY THEY CANNOT EXIT THE BOX AND HAVE THE SWITCH LOCATED SOMEWHERE ELSE.

In other words, you can sink a little hole into the side of the box, install a little mini phone jack (with the appropriate lead going to ground), and run an unshielded pair out the side of the box to a much sturdier and more conveniently placed momentary switch somewhere else.  For instance, you could line up all your pedals in one spot, and run a little "snake" out to your remote footswitch box, which could occupy much less space in front of a mic stand than a dozen odd pedals of different shapes and sizes.  You couldn't route the indicator LEDs out quite as easily, but if you can still see the pedals, such a retrofit switching arrangement could still be a convenience.

Bonus 1:  Place the remote switches close enough together that if you want you can hit several at once.

Bonus 2:  Their only momentary normally-open switches.  That means you can parallel as many of them as you want without creating problems.  Do you need to be able to switch your pedals from more than one location?  No problem.  Just run one momentary in parallel with another somewhere else (e.g., soundman's bench, or the mic where you do harmonices with the bass player)

[Cabezahead]

That's a damn interesting idea...  So your saying any momentary switch placed ANYWHERE would work?  I like the opportunities that opens up....

On the other hand - since the sound doesn't go through the switch - are we sure that the faulty switching system is indeed a faulty switch and NOT a faulty circuit?

-CH

[Mark Hammer]

That's a damn interesting idea...  So your saying any momentary switch placed ANYWHERE would work?  I like the opportunities that opens up....

On the other hand - since the sound doesn't go through the switch - are we sure that the faulty switching system is indeed a faulty switch and NOT a faulty circuit?

-CH

Yep.  That's exactly what I'm saying.  I'm surprised it doesn't get exploited more often.  Again, perhaps the reason is that while its a piece of cake to relocate the switch, relocating the LED is more complicated.  I sauspect few players would find it convenient to have the switch in one place and the LED in another.  On the other hand, I'm sure you've seen many pedalboards where the use of a variety of different chassis sizes requires the user to step over a lot of things to change pedals.  If it were possible to stick the pedals onto the board any way you want, and reroute all their switches to one neat row in front, life would be grand, eh?

Looking over your initial post, I'm curious about your use of the term "reliable".  Do you mean that sometimes it switches and sometimes it doesn't?  That can sometimes be a question of actuator/switch alignment.  I'm unfamiliar with the TS7 specifically, but I know that, for example on my Rocktek Phaser, there is a little plastic pad that fits over the plastic "leg" that physically presses the momentary switch when you step on the treadle.  The softer plastic retrofit serves two functions.  First it fills the space between the top of the switch and the botom of the leg, and second it provides a little cushioning so the harder plastic leg doesn't break.  When I've disassembled the phaser and forgotten to replace the little plastic retrofit, the switch has not worked properly.  Could this be your situation?  If you've lost something like the plastic retrofit, or even if there is some other reason why the switch only works sometimes, occasionally it is simply an issue of filling the gap between switch and actuator (the part that physically pushes the switch) in some manner.  That can be a bit of hot glue or even a bit of (shudder) duct tape.

[Cabezahead]

Nope... Not the actuator...  I can open it up and physically push the switch down myself and it's 50/50 wether it'll work or not.  It's a common problem in TS7s.  What happens a lot is it will turn on for a split second while my foot is down, and turn off when I life my foot off... 'Tis a bitch.

I found the 'replacement' on Small Bear's site and ordered two of 'em... So - i'll try that at first and see if it cures it up.

I love the thought of a neat row of switches in front of me, but I really don't have a use for it... My board consists of a tubescreamer, a RAT and a Wah...  I just don't like running through that many cables and things.

I used to have two massive boards all rigged up and powered and set...  Then one day I plugged into my amp alone and realized what i'd been missing...  It makes giggin that much easier, too.

-CH

[Mark Hammer]

Well then I'd say you have your head screwed on right.  Now all you have to do is get the switch screwed on tight.

[Cabezahead]

hehehehe Yup yup!

Thanks for all the help!  I'm glad I found this forum... goooooood place to be.

-CH

[RickL]

The problem is, I think, switch bounce. The switch gets corroded/dirty and when contact is made/broken the switch actually turns off and on several times before if finally comes to rest. If it switches an odd number of times the pedal switches on/off status, if it switches an even number of times you end up where you started. About half the time you get an even number of bounces about half the the time an odd number, so it seems like the switch is working properly about half the time.

This can be a problem if you use the remote switching suggestion that Mark offered. I've done it to a number of pedals and had to be careful about exactly what switch I used for remote switching. Switches designed for high current applications, which tend to be sturdier, are also often 'bouncier'. Strangely I've had most luck with old computer keyboard switches. It makes sense that keyboard switches would be designed for low bounce and I think they use similar contact surfaces to the switches that Boss, Ibanez and others use, a sort of conductive carbon looking stuff.

I had a particular problem with the replacement switch on a TS-5 that I reboxed and ended up finding a solution that involved raising the value of a capacitor in the switching circuit. I believe the solution was suggested by someone here on the forum so a search might yield some results. You might be able to replace the cap rather than the switch.

[Mark Hammer]

Good call Rick.  When you put it that way, yeah I suppose switches designed for greater current WOULD be less concerned about debouncing because that current is gonna leap across the contacts even if there is a small millisecond gap.  The remote switching thing WILL work, but given Rick's comments I guess one should be careful in choice of switches, and have reasonable expectations about how they will need to be used.

The cap in question is, I believe the .01uf cap that effectively parallels the switch.  One side of the momentary switch is tied to ground and the other tied to V+ through a 100R and 1Meg resistor.  When the switch is closed, the voltage fed to the flip-flop circuit goes low, initiating a state-change.  The .01uf cap adds a tiny bit of lag to that for debouncing purposes.  Adding a bit more capacitance in parallel, or simply popping in a slightly larger value (.015 to .033) in place of the original ought to increase the lag enough to make switching more reliable without appreciably altering the change-over time when switching.  Just to put things in perspective, think of this like putting in a larger capacitor in en envelope follower to reduce envelope ripple.

IF one does use a larger cap, I'm wondering if it might also not be wise to up the value of the 100R resistor a smidgen (e.g., 150R) to avoid issues from suddenly discharging a larger cap.  A problem? or not?

[RickL]

When I did the change on my TS-5 rebox all I changed was the cap and I didn't have any problems. Mind you I just tested it long enough to confirm that it worked and stuck it back on the shelf so I can't vouch for long term reliability.

I'm in the fortunate (?) position now that I have so many pedals (400+)that I can't possibley play them all even occationally let alone regularly. Right now I'm trying to make a dent in boxing an estimated 30 built, working circuits.

[Mark Hammer]

Well then I suspect you're just going to have to retire to Chemainus or something and we'll all have to take the ferry over to visit the Stompbox Museum.  :lol:

One question, you don't have batteries in all those suckers, do you?

[RickL]

Nope.    I have a cache of about 30 batteries have been in commercial pedals when I bought them. I use one or two of them to test pedals as I build them, then when the voltage gets too low I cannibalize them to make battery snaps.

[Cabezahead]

Just an update...  Dropped in a Smallbear switch last night - fit right in, no problems... So far it works like a freakin' charm!  Now I can actually have some confidence on stage when I stomp down on this guy...

We'll see how long it lasts - but it's so easy and cheap, replacing the switch every year or so wouldn't be that big a deal...

Thanks for the help!

-CH