Metel film / Electrolytic Caps - No difference???

[truce11]

I've been researching the internet on DIY info as most of us forum-posters do.  I came across Jack Orman's site to see if anything's worth finding.  Great Site.  

Intruiged by the "editorial" page on his site: http://www.muzique.com/editor.htm

I know many modifiers use Metal Film Caps to reduce noise and improve overall sound quality in such pedals as 7-band equalizers.  I also know Jack Orman is a respected guy around these parts, and he does have some great info and knowledge.  

Bottom line:  Is this true?
"There has been a lot of interest recently in upgrading commercial effects boxes by replacing the electrolytics with metal film capacitors and other audiophile quality parts for more transparent or hi-fi sounds. Also, some boutique builders hype the quality of the capacitors used in their designs.

There is no reason to replace electrolytic capacitors in effects boxes. Repeat after me... capacitor upgrades do not make any audible difference in stompboxes. "

No offense to anyone - Thanks.

[smashinator]

Well, this guy says basically the same thing, and has a pretty good explanation of it too: http://www.tone-lizard.com/

It's easier to sell most people on mojo as opposed to math.  

[mlabbee]

Read this: http://members.aol.com/sbench102/caps.html

Bottom line - ceramics distort like crazy and tants and electrolytics suck unless they are biased. But this is at tube amp voltages . . . and, it may be the distortion that makes certain effects sound the way they sound.

If you're really concerned about it, do what I did and A/B some caps in an effect circuit and see if you can tell the difference.  I couldn't, so I picked the ones that fit best.  

[Joe Hart]

Let me start out by saying that I know close to nothing about electronics -- just enough to build some pedals and wire some guitars.

I have tried A/B tests with metal film caps (particularly large voltage ones), and they seem to have a more focused bottom end sound to them.  I like them.  The best I can explain is a "roundness" or "fullness" in the low frequencies.

Again, I'm not an electrical engineer, just a guitarist who can solder.

Hope this helps.
-Joe Hart

[truce11]

Thanks for the responses and feedback with personal experiences.  
I did read the "analysis" on some of the written reports about the "reality" of the caps.  I suppose it comes down to common sense:  Using the ears.  

I'm at work now, and I forget the specifics of the report - but perhaps they didn't account for nitpicky audiophiles.   A different electronics ballfield.

Not worth skipping work over.  But good curiousity.

Have a good one yall.

[Fret Wire]

Again, I'm not an electrical engineer, just a guitarist who can solder.

Me too Joe!  And...my hearing is still good after all these years!

With caps, sometimes the science and the actual practice disagree, sometimes they don't. Like everyone said, use your ears. Sometimes you will hear a cumulative difference in a ckt, other times not. When your ears hear a change that sounds good, then it is good. A good ckt design will sound good even if you use the cheapest components you can find.

Some of us use selected quality components for peace of mind also. You're the one investing money and time soldering, wiring, and boxing the ckt. Use what makes you happy and fits your budget.

[MartyMart]

There is no reason to replace electrolytic capacitors in effects boxes. Repeat after me... capacitor upgrades do not make any audible difference in stompboxes. "

No offense to anyone - Thanks.

No offence taken ! but I have to disagree with that statement.
While I'll admit that changing one or two components will have almost no effect upon a circuit, and in particular a stompbox circuit, it is the cumulative effect of "many" changes that can and does, improve quality of tone and reduces noise.
I've modded and sold a lot of Boss and Ibanez pedals, and while I'm no "Keeley" I can say that i've had nothing but positive responses to the improvements.
Granted it is expensive to replace 15 or 20 caps/resistors in my  BD-2 mod, but the benefit, for example when used as a "clean boost' is outstanding.
There is no comparison, everyone who's had it done is "blown away" with the improvements.
Just my 2 cents worth  

Marty.

[Fret Wire]

Marty, I think that is Jack Orman's quote that Truce pasted on to the post.

[Alpha579]

yeh, changing one component doesnt make a heck of a difference, but change all of your carbon comp res to metal films and ceramic caps to film and mica and you might notice a more open tone and less noise...

[MartyMart]

Marty, I think that is Jack Orman's quote that Truce pasted on to the post.

I appreciate that and I respect the opinions of experienced and talented engineers, but I'm just using my "ears" as you suggested in your post above, that beats the "maths" almost every time IMHO.
If there was no change/benefit I would'nt bother and would'nt sell any ! :wink:
There also would be no "Keeley" or "Analogman" if it were completely untrue, would there ?.

Marty.

[Fret Wire]

True.  I don't totally agree with the cap theory either. I just pointed that out in case you thought Truce was saying that as his own opinion. Sorry for the confusion.

[MartyMart]

Sorry Fretwire, I got that totally wrong, I thought you were giving me an "intellectual ticking off" !!  :oops:

Marty.

[bobbletrox]

I partly agree with Jack Orman.

Replacing electro caps in commercial effects does sound different to my ears...but enough of a difference to be considered "hi-fi"?  I'd say: NO.   It's a very loaded term to use.

[Skreddy]

I hear a huge difference swapping even one cap in most homemade fuzz pedals.  Ceramics sound weak and grainy, electros sound grungy, 'greenies' sound dark, tantalums are basically clear but a bit harsh sometimes, and 'tropical fish' are smooth and sweet.  This is purely my own ears and personal experience.  If anybody's math or scope can't detect the difference, then they're not measuring the right things.  Why this obvious opinion should even begin to approach any level of controversy I think just boils down to "let's not offend Jack; he's a god."  Okay, but it IS possible to disagree with facts without disrespecting the man.  I may not know everything, but I sure know that different caps sound different.  I've never even had the opportunity to try some cool stuff like paper and oil, etc.  

<sarcasm>
But if you made your own cap using Reynold's Wrap and Saran Wrap, I'm sure it would sound identical to any other cap.  In fact, just holding a couple of forks really close to one another should suffice.  Why do we even bother buying this stuff when it's so easy to make yourself in the kitchen?  :?
</sarcasm>

Crap.  For that matter, different makes of even the same model transistors vary dramatically.  Sheeeeeit.  Same maker, different batches of transistors can sound like completely different animals.  But apparently transistors don't matter either.  Apparently every NPN BJT can be substituted with a 2N5089 with no noticeable difference, if we are to believe a lot of schematic re-drawings.   :roll:

Yes, components matter.  

Duh.   :twisted:

[Fret Wire]

When your ears hear a change that sounds good, then it is good.  

That's my philosophy, same as your's Skeddy. I don't think anyone is worried about offending Jack Orman though. He's probably forgotten more than I'll ever know, but if my ears tell me it sounds good, that's what I'm going with.

I like tants too. I usually replace electro's and tants with metal film any place I can. Where the value is too high, I replace electro's with tants. Back in the day, MXR used tants a lot to save space, and the script logo pedals sounded fine. Funny you mention the Fuzz ckt. I heard less mud when I replaced the 2.2 & 22uf caps with tants. Then I found 2.2uf metal film caps that are smaller than a dime, and they definately sound better.

I don't mind the new people here asking about this. They see the hi-fi cap talk on some websites, and the opposite view on other respected sites, so they ask here. Some people get aggravated to see this come up every couple of weeks, but every time I see a fresh point of view that's interesting.

[RedHouse]

From another viewpoint, the change in cap type is also quite dependant on where it's used in a circuit. Any cap that has the signal passing directly through it on to another section of the circuit should be improved by a metal film cap.

Using Electrolytics as coupling caps because they have the large values seems easy, but coupling caps need to have fast transient response which electrolytics don't. Any cap (even a car battery) can charge up to it's rated capacitance ...in time... but to react fast to keep up with the domain of the signal, now that's the real issue, and many can hear that as an improvement to some degree.

On the other hand Electrolytics used for things like cathode bypass can work well because the signal isn't going directly through it, it is just providing an AC ground point for the tube.
(personally I use metal film for cathode bypass too)

Upgrading circuits is where I personally take the view of better quality capacitors and resistors. As an amature racer (NHRA Sportsman class) I'm quite aware of how many small alterations to a car and it's engine, while most are un-noticable in themselves can certainly add-up to quite noticable overall performance improvements.
(often, better enough than the other guy and win the race)

Throw a Cam into your motor and you notice an improvement, throw headers on and you notice an improvement, throw a better ring-n-pinion set in and you notice an improvement (hopefully). But when you and your competion already have those things, then the small stuff come in to play, you balance the rotating assembly, use roller lifters and rockers different intake manifold, modify the carburetor, cam timing etc etc etc, then the combination adds up to a noticable improvement.

I feel that (most) effects and amps can get the same benefits on a given circuit by using better quality parts. For instance I got an old beat up Boss Chorus off ebay that I wanted for an all-in-one project so while I was taking the circuit board out of the original box I decided to replace those cheasy caps with decent metalized polyester film caps, after getting the curcuit into it's new home I fired it up hoping to hear a big improvement... which I didn't. Later I went to a friends house to jam, he has the very same Boss chorus and later in the night he said to me "did you do something to your chorus? I could swear yours sounds clearer than mine".  I didn't notice it on it's own but when comparing to an original there was some improvement.

It makes $ sense for Mfr's to use cheap caps, if you build a million pedals and a decent cap costs you 50¢ but a cheapie cost 15¢ they just saved $350k ...on just one cap!... now multiplying by the dozen or two caps in each pedal, well you get the idea.
(yes they would get quantity discounts etc, it's just an example)

How cool for us DIY'ers, as we can afford to go buy those 50¢ caps and have a better pedals!.
(and low noise metal-film resistors instead of the carbon-film hissmeisters)

[wampcat1]

Well, this guy says basically the same thing, and has a pretty good explanation of it too: http://www.tone-lizard.com/

It's easier to sell most people on mojo as opposed to math.  

Irritating...that site tried to install a toolbar in my browser.  :shock:  :?