OT: recording the electric guitar, please help

[Branimir]

greets everyone!

recently the guys and i recored drums in my basement, we used 4 mikes and 2 computers (don't ask, we don't have money nor mikes for a multichanel soundcard)

anyways
i managed to mix the drums somewhat okay, the bass guitar was played through an albert kreuzer preamp into the soundcard    (a very nice and versatile bass preamp!), vocals were recorded with the best mic that we had the SHURE PG58. i play guitar for 6 years now and last year and a half i started to record it, but i always ran into problems when recording..

first - i always needed to tweak the eq on the guitar tracks and none of the times guitar sounded "in your face", it's always somekind of mushy background recorded..

i had success with double tracking the rythm parts actually, i boosted the highs on the amp a bit to compensate the loss of the mike. panned one hard left and one hard right, but i think i'm missing something in the process...

i put the mike very close to the cone, like i saw in the pics on other sites, on concerts and such, played with the angle (the mike is connected to the mic input of the abit ic7g soundcard, not a very good solution i know) of the microphone, i even tried last time to record with two mics. one infront of the cone and one half meter away to pick up the "ambience".
it sounded like poo since there's too much of "ambience" already...



please help, i dunno how to upgrade the sound, the mike isn't the best for the job, but it can do the trick, i'm aware i can make some difference with eq but i'm sick of experimenting since i don't have any clue with what freqencies should i fiddle.

this is not an ad for my band since i'm not in usa or anything, but this is how it sounds...

http://www.insipidtaste.com/music.php first 3 songs were badly recorded. one mike on the drums and one on the bass amp. guitars and vocals were added later.

interesting on these 3 songs (Face, To Heaven And Back, Insipid Taste) i double tracked the guitars and hard panned 'em. and it sounds "good" at least i think i made something of it. the guitar is pronounced and it's not too loud.

other 3 songs were recorded last week.
and i put (i don't want to say how much i messed around with the eq on the guitar) too much of everything on the guitar, so it doesn't sound like it should, but it fills the sound of the songs..  :cry:

next weekend we'll record again and i'll mike the drums better (with 4 mics again hehe) - i know where to start with mixing them, and the bass won't be a problem, vocals are the last worry.

guitars?
i'm definitly going to double track the rythm, but i'm scared it won't sound as good as i want since i tried like 10 different guitar recordings on the frist three songs year ago till i got pleasing results, yuck!  :shock:

i apologize for the long post anyway i don't know where to ask more for an advice, i'm a bit sceptic about other audio related forums since the only answer would be "buy a SM57 and do the same thing you always do" and since i'm a diy-er this is the place to ago...

oh yeah, how do i make a stereo guitar track out of a single mike recording?!

for amps i have
Hi-Octane
DIY 2 chanell preamp (with Sansamp GT2's as preamps) into a solid state 100w PA

both setups would be played through a 2x12" celestion vintage 30s home made box.

help.
thanks!

ps: if there's no link on a song that means i'm uploading it now,

THANKS
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR

[KORGULL]

Here's a few basic quick ideas - (which you may already be doing):
Set microphone input level as high as possible without going into overload/distortion.

Record the guitar direct on one track and blend it in with the miked track.
I record alot of stuff totally direct - results vary depending on your equipment.

Don't overdo the reverb.

Record with a totally dry signal - add reverb/effects later.

Don't cut the mids too much - in fact try boosting the mid control on your amp higher than what you normally think sounds good.

An EQ boost on the guitar track at 3-4Khz can give it more of an in your face edge - but don't overdo it because it can get too harsh and hard to listen to over time.

Record the tracks with neutral (flat) EQ settings (on the mixer) - only mess with the EQ later when mixing.

Try changing the EQ on the other instruments - they might be clashing with the guitar, fighting for space and cancelling each other out.
You have to choose what element you want to stand out the most.
Don't try to have everything full-on all the time. Make sure everything works well together - you can spend 2 hours tweaking the guitar in solo mode, get it to sound perfect, then un-mute the rest of the tracks and it disappears or just sounds bad in the mix.
Don't accentuate the same frequencies on several tracks - if you boost the guitar at 3K don't also crank up the drum's 3K.
Try cutting frequencies instead of boosting.
Try not to go too wild in general with the EQs.

Record the guitar in as "dead" a space as possible (closet full of clothes, or drape heavy blankets over mic/amp) to avoid excess reverberations which could make it sound too distant, harsh and messy.

Of course there are no definite rules here, and it is a matter of opinion and what style of music you record, but here are some very general guidlines for what frequencies to emphasize for different instruments:
10K and above - cymbals.
3K - guitar
1K - snare
250-500Hz - vocal
100Hz - kick drum/bass guitar
Maybe start out with a small boost around those frequencies and then adjust to taste.
Hope something here helps!
I didn't get a chance to listen to your recording because my computer/connection is very slow and I don't have alot of time tonight - so this advice is not a direct criticism of your recording - just some general advice. Good luck.

[squidsquad]

Good advice above...but also remember...LESS IS MORE!  Know why Jack White (White Stripes) gets great sounds?  No bass...and only an occasional quiet overdub.  Easy to want a *wall of sound* & double rythems & leads. But you lose the dynamic range...there is no room for *phatness*...and you end up with a *Wall of Mud*.  Leave holes & space in your music....not everyone one quarter notes. (I haven't listen to your tracks yet, so I'm speaking in generalities).  But I've produced music for 40 years...and learned the hard way.  And don't fall into the *I need better equipment* trap.  GREAT tracks can be made with a Sure SM57/8 on a 4 track recorder.  It's not what you have...but how you use what you've got.  Also...(hope I'm not negating what I just said)...a little compression helps...don't over-do it.  And a BBE Sonic Maximiser (cheap) can remove some mud and return sparkle...without over EQing.  Also...taking bottom off of the axes is better than pumping up the highs.  Let the bass do the bass.  And don't *hard=pan*... try more like 10 & 2 o:clock.  Just my $.02.

[Branimir]

thanks!

i'll try both your advices.

on these recordings there is 0 reverb on rythm tracks, lead has some...

i guess i really never thought of "dead" space.. i imagined since it's closed miked i don't need a really dead room taking into account that the reverb wont bounce back to the mike... hm... i'll try to make a small boot around the amp, with blankets or something, think it could help...

regarding "let bass do the bass" - i like that and i like to stick with it, but it's sometimes hard since i always try to record that "crunch" while palm muting the low strings, and it doesn't sound as strong as i would like to.. so i pump up bass - which is a bad thing - if it's not recorded - i'm not going to make it happen by this - only simulate - wich doesn't work...

i didn't use compression on guitar.. hm..

generally i would like to have guitar - bass - drums relations similiar to alice in chains - i think of the album dirt since that one's recored with a grittier - harsher sound than facelift..

i noticed i don't fall behind much with drums - i mean i do, but with better mike placement and mixing technique in the next session i could make a good drum sound...

but the guitar(s) on that record sound really good...

mine sounds like mud heh.

thanks!

[MartyMart]

There's good advice above, but try this, when you mike the amp put a chair about two feet in front of it and drape a "Duvet" over the whole thing, so you ensase the chair and amp.
You should then have a much more "dry" recording.
If you want some "room" on the recording, just place another mic about 2/3 meters away on a stand, you can blend in some of that ambience later !
P.S I use an SM57 for close mic of a guitar amp ALL the time !

Marty.

[squidsquad]

As for making stereo out of a mono track.  You make a copy of the track...run the copy thru a delay of anywhere from 10 to 40 milliseconds (pure *wet* no dry signal).  Or perhaps simply magnify the copy and drag it a tiny bit behind the other.  Experiment!  There are plug-ins that make stereo out of mono also.  And remember...if the drums, bass, &/or vocals are too loud....they will bury your axes.  You must decide what is the most important thing that *carrys* the tune.  Do you want your words heard? The ax lick to jump out? Sometimes you can tweak each track....back the axes down when singing...pump em back up when there's no vocal.  It's easy on a computer....once you know your way around the programs you are using. I've made GREAT tracks using an old PC...only 233mhz....and Sound Forge & Cool Edit Pro.

[STOMPmole]

I'm with MartyMart on this one...drape a blanket over the cabinet and if all else fails use a Shure SM57.  The presence peak on the '57 really helps to get that in-your-face sound (if that's what you're after).

IMHO though, the real source of your problem is:

"for amps i have Hi-Octane DIY 2 chanell preamp (with Sansamp GT2's as preamps) into a solid state 100w PA both setups would be played through a 2x12" celestion vintage 30s home made box. "

If you keep the speakers and buy a tube guitar amp (Marshall/Fender) you will be much closer to your desired sound.  Solid state amps have a way of turning everything to mush.

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

my limited experience with recording has yielded a little rule i always follow: if you can keep it in a wire, do so.

Example: the only things making recording noise in my 5 person band are the vocalist and the drummer. I use a PODxt to send my signal into the recording device with no incident. The other guitarist and the bassist do this as well, using a "line out" on their amps. this leaves only a vocalist and drummer to deal with mics (the two there really is no avoiding)

Perhaps you could put a line out in one of your amps just prior to the actual amplification stage of it? this way, you could keep your signal entirely preserved.

well, best of luck

[GreenEye]

Just a few hints:
-don't just copy a guitar track over to get a stereo effect; actually record two separate guitars on two separate tracks and takes with one mic on one speaker - the nuances will really come out and make it sound full.  If the group records all the instruments "live," I often toss out the guitar part that was played live and re-do it with multitracking until you get two that are tighter.

-you really need a compressor for the guitars - you just can't plug in a mic and set a level; the level will be jumping all over the place, especially if you palm mute.  The compressor could be an actual unit (Musician's Friend is selling a Behringer one for $49 right now), or one in a computer program.

-you may want to read up on mics being IN and OUT of phase if you're trying to use two mics at the same time.  If you don't want to read up on it, don't use two mics at once - they'll probably be out of phase with each other.

[SirPoonga]

Well, you must be using decent software in order to do this.

I've been recording my bass to remember how certain settings sound.
All I have used is kreative kristal audio software (www.kreatives.org/kristal/), bass directly into the line-in on my sb live, adn Guitar FX BOX shareware software (www.guitar-fxbox.com).  Sounds pretty decent.  I have my computer hooked up to my home stereo system (which consist of 2 Paradigm Phantoms, 2 Polk Audio RC10s, home built sub) and it sounds great.

Hopefully this will give you some more insight.  I don't know if this is a possibility for you.

[Branimir]

thanks everyone for replies!

If you keep the speakers and buy a tube guitar amp (Marshall/Fender) you will be much closer to your desired sound. Solid state amps have a way of turning everything to mush.

Hi-Octane is a tube amp, built from scratch, kind of a jcm800 preamp into a SE EL84, project can be found on //www.ax84.com. that other thing is an another amp

i use adobe audition (it was called cool edit before)
i have cubase sx 2 but i don't have a multichanell soundcard to use it and i don't know anything about software, should get a tutorial or something i don't even know what asio is, it would take me ages to figure out how to recored frome line in on the soundcard through cubase and probably will sound the same as with cool edit. although cubase has real time effects like compressors and such  :?

.
okay, i record stuff like this:
i plug my guitar into a zoom 505 (heh) and output of the same unit to the headphones attached to the drummers skull (okay, head  :wink: ). he gives the tick tick tick before he enters and that we we play the whole song together so he can know where is in the song - listening me on the headphones..

4 mikes are used to record drums in this manner.
one in the kick drum
one on the snare
one on the tom (he uses one tom)
one on the floor tom.

two mikes are connected like LEFT and RIGHT chanells of the LINE IN and then plugged into the computer.
other two mikes are connected the same way but plugged into the LINE IN of the second computer.

both computers are in the same room and are connected.

after the recording is over.
we seperate each 4 tracks from those 2 "stereo" images and copy it on the one computer to mix them.

after that goes the bass guitar - line out of the bass preamp into the line in of the computer
guitar cab is miked than into the mic in
vocal the same way.

i have Kristal too, i'll give it a try..

thanks!!

[KORGULL]

You can get a much better (hotter) signal recorded if you really back off the bass control on your amp - especially if you use alot of palm muting.
A compressor isn't as necassary if you do this.

[mlabbee]

Don't forget panning the tracks - if everything is dead center you can get crowding just like if everything is in the same frequency range.  Move stuff around "the room" and you can really open up a lot of space in the music.  Also, the advice to start dry is really good - add effects in later - you'd be surprised how little reverb you need to make something sound good when there are a bunch of instruments playing together.  A really wet guitar sounds great on its own, but disappears in the mix when you add in bass and drums.

Some good tips here:
http://www.looperman.com/tutorials.php
http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req1100/homeprime.htm (even though he goes off on the need to use pricey mics, the techniques suggested will improve any mic)
http://www.recordingeq.com/EQ/req0201/feature.html

Definitely search around on the web - there are tons of resources for free that give great advice on how to record - you can probably find stuff directed to the specific kind of sounds you want  (metal, country, etc.)