PCB design

[jrc4558]

Hi everybody.
I have a question.
Is there a programm to which you can input the schematic and it will design a PCB out of it? There has to be one...
Which one is it?

Thank you all.

[Dragonfly]

Hi everybody.
I have a question.
Is there a programm to which you can input the schematic and it will design a PCB out of it? There has to be one...
Which one is it?

Thank you all.

there are a few, but at this point they are VERY expensive....the best "cheap" option that ive found is Express PCB and Express Schematic, which work together....draw your schematic on Express Schematic, and then link it to a file you open on Express PCB...as long as all your parts on EX SCH are numbered correctly, you can just select the parts on EX PCB and then use the "connect" feature to tell you where all your connections should be. then you just layout the parts in a manner you see fit...

oh yeah....and both programs are FREE !!!

[niftydog]

Protel supposedly does this, but I've tried it on many occassions and only ever been sorely dissapointed. The effort that goes into setting up the rules and guidlines for the autoplacer and autorouter is only worth it if you're in big business. For the rest of us, save yourself some time and just place it manually.

Oh yeah... Protel is stupidly expensive by the way.

[The Tone God]

This has been covered before. Do a search for "auto router".

In the end you find out auto routers suck for audio and you should layout boards manually. Its an art.

Andrew

[Peter Snowberg]

Autorouters can do very well for high speed digital, but I agree 100% with Andrew.... for audio they tend to suck, or they have so much setup involved that you can get a better layout done faster by hand most of the time.

The 1/2 way solution of ExpressSCH and ExpressPCB is probably the best for what most of us are doing here.... first you do the schematic which results in something called a "netlist" which shows you all the connections that need to be made. As you draw traces, each one is checked off the netlist.

Making layouts may seem like hard work and it sure can be, but it IS an art and you can't just paint a picture without some practice unless your name is Van Gogh.... and then you have only one earlobe.... :? Hehehe. I digress.

[j0shua]

i use CircuitMaker , and for PCB Traxmaker, both working together ....

is little expensive, but i download from Emule program LOL!   :twisted:

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Fortunately, R.G. has a book on the art of analog layout, with particular reference to stompboxes.
http://www.geofex.com/bookpages/bookblurb.htm
I've seen a ring modulator laid out 'automatically' by Protel, and....... it is crap. :x  :x  :x

[ErikMiller]

My preferred program is Eagle Layout, which claims to have an autorouter.

It also lets you output to a printer or Gerber files, etc. unlike the package mentioned earlier that limits you to using the developers' manufacturing house.

I'll chime in and agree with what has been stated about automatic routing being less useful for what we do.

[Paul Marossy]

I have used Eagle once or twice, but really don't like how these auto-router programs work. It's very difficult to get a single-sided layout that I like and it's time consuming. I can design one a lot quicker myself with a lot less frustration! I suppose large complicated circuits is another story...

[stm]

The PCB program looks nice, however it seems the catch is you MUST order the PCBs from them.  Or is there a way to make them yourself?  As far as I understand, you can't export the files in any "industry standard" format for production.

Ordering the boards outside the US gets pretty expensive.  For instance, the MiniBoard service costs $51, then add $35 shipping to Chile and you have $86.  Now add 30% for tax and customs duties (19% and 11% respectively, here in Chile), you end up paying: $112 aprox, which is roughly $37 per board, considering they ship three for that price (ouch!).  Notice $112 is MORE THAN TWICE the value to pay with respect a to a US living person.

EDIT: I checked and re-checked the print and export functions included in the program.  The print adds a 0.1" grid to the layer, so no good for PCB fab.  The export functions are only for the silscreen.  In addition, the simplest PCB these guys make is dual-sided with plated through holes, which is way more expensive than the modest single sided PCB used on DIY.  I wish there was a way to use it for simple boards, since it is quite simple to use.  If anyone has found a way to do so, please let me know.

[bwanasonic]

Hi everybody.
I have a question.
Is there a programm to which you can input the schematic and it will design a PCB out of it? There has to be one...
Which one is it?

This reminds me of the Staples ads on TV where difficult tasks are made easy by pressing a big red button marked *EASY*. I get this a lot at work when you tell a client what they want will take a long time and cost them a lot of money - there is a persistent belief in the hidden existence of a *BIG RED EASY BUTTON*   :roll:

No offense Constantin! I would certainly be using the *BREB* for PCB layout if I could!  

Kerry N

[bwanasonic]

EDIT: I checked and re-checked the print and export functions included in the program.  The print adds a 0.1" grid to the layer, so no good for PCB fab.  The export functions are only for the silscreen.  In addition, the simplest PCB these guys make is dual-sided with plated through holes, which is way more expensive than the modest single sided PCB used on DIY.  I wish there was a way to use it for simple boards, since it is quite simple to use.  If anyone has found a way to do so, please let me know.

If you figure the costs for the ExpressPCB *minboard* option, I think you will find it is quite economical. If you layout several circuits on one 2.5" X 3.8" board you can get the *per-board* cost down pretty low. I've had boards made with 5 circuits on them, which brings the per-board cost down to $3.4 @. Double-sided allows you to use the top layer for labeling off-board pads, etc. as well as easily use it for *jumpers*.

And finally, there are instructions available for getting around the software limitations and using ExpressPCB for your making your own boards. Search here  and it should turn up.

Kerry M

[stm]

Mmhhh... seems the only workaround is to do Print Screen to capture the desired layer as a bitmap.

When using a resolution of 1024x768, you have a usable window of 960x640 (aprox), and at a resolution of 300 dpi, this means you can capture a pcb whose dimensions are 3.2" x 2.1".

HINT: I am using a notebook, and I am able to setup a virtual desktop resolution of 1600x1200 (even though my screen is physically 1024x768).  Doing a Print Screen effectively captured a 1600x1200 bitmap, with a usable window now of 1536x1072, which would translate roughly to a 5" x 3.5" board... Pretty decent for DIY.

Anyway you can still do a zoom and capture partial shots of the board and then assemble them using Paint or any other graphics program.  It's just a real PITA.

[jrc4558]

Well, the only reason I asked is because I don't have any formal or informal education in PCB making, as well as lack any acquiaintance with people who do and could possibly teach me. In this respect bwanasonic, you may view me as your mentioned Staples customer.
On the other hand, already in 2001 there was new software introduced to the market roughly once in two weeks. What's the rate now? I don't know. However I sincerely beleive that it's good to be up-to-date. Thus I merely ask, from people whom I expect to know. There's such a phenomena mentioned by sociologists as the "strength of the weak ties".
You're more likely finding a job if you ask the people you don't know, rather than asking your friends. This is the method that I resorted to.
Well, let computers develop a bit more. Maybe next year.

[sir_modulus]

I'm confused....I use Express PCB/SCH, and it has all these auto-routing functions, and a nice extense part gallery etc...

Now when you say you can't remove the grid you are wrong...All you do is set the grid to not show, and do the export to bitmap thing. Then I just resize and put in gif, and print!

Cheers,

Nish

[ragtime8922]

Fortunately, R.G. has a book on the art of analog layout, with particular reference to stompboxes.
http://www.geofex.com/bookpages/bookblurb.htm
I've seen a ring modulator laid out 'automatically' by Protel, and....... it is crap. :x  :x  :x

Thanks Paul, I tried to get this like 5 or 6 times but I know RG is busy and I just assumed that the demand wasn't high enough to go digging for it just because I e-mailed. Of course it may have been a part of Mr. Keens master plan because as a result of not having that document I was forced to do a bunch on my own. (Made the mistake of trying the Ross Comp as my first attempt.) After a few layouts that had more jumpers than components I finally got the hang of it....to an extent....

[ragtime8922]

Oops, forget it. I typed the above response before trying your link. It sends you to the same place that the button on GEO's front page sends you.
      I feel like I'm doing something wrong. RG is incredibly helpful on this forum and his site is incredible. The button sends you to that page that tells you to e-mail him for a copy. Then, RG's e-mail is no where to be found on the whole Geo site. (I had to ask around to get it) Once I got it I tried to e-mail him 3 times. I tried a few other sources too. Maybe I have the wrong e-mail address.

[bwanasonic]

I'm confused....I use Express PCB/SCH, and it has all these auto-routing functions, and a nice extense part gallery etc...

ExpressPCB does NOT do auto-routing. Auto-routing means the software actually draws the traces for you. I learned Eagle well enough to try it's auto-routing features. That's when I realized auto-routing wasn't something that I was going to find very useful in it's current incarnation. And that's even with my rudimentary layout skills.

Constantin, there may well be software in the not-too-distant future that *magically* spits out a PCB layout from a schematic, but as was mentioned in another thread about selling your pedals, the layout is one of the things in stompbox DIY that you can truly call *yours*.  

Kerry M

[stm]

I'm confused....I use Express PCB/SCH, and it has all these auto-routing functions, and a nice extense part gallery etc...

Now when you say you can't remove the grid you are wrong...All you do is set the grid to not show, and do the export to bitmap thing. Then I just resize and put in gif, and print!

Cheers,

Nish

I downloaded version 4.2.2 and doesn't let me to export a PCB other than from the SILKSCREEN.

Can you post the version you have please?  Also, please let us now the menu path you follow to get to that function.

Regards,

STM

[Gladmarr]

As for circuit design/ board layout software, I use Orcad because we have it at work.  It's insanely expensive and so buggy, you can hardly use the auto router.  However, it will autoroute your board, and you can send the output files to someone like Futurlec who kicks ExpressPCB's prices by a long shot.  If it were up to me to buy something, I would NOT get Orcad.  If you spread the cost of the software over all the boards you'll ever make, you're still better off with ExpressPCB.  The board routing idea is pretty simple to learn, and ExpressPCB will give you the points you have to connect for each trace if you link a schematic to a board layout.  It's worth the very quick learning curve....