Press and peel circuit board making

[michael_krell]

I have been trying to make circuit boards using the Press and Peel Blue. I have not been having much success. I design the board using express PCB and do a "print screen" and paste it into paint and size it up right and then print it using an HP Laserjet 5L. The print comes out pretty good. It probably coud be better but i dont think thats the problem. I clean the copper with a brillo pad until the copper is shiny, then i iron the stuff on and I even wait a while to make sure. I cool it off and then when i peel it off, half of it is on, and half is not. I dont understand what im doing wrong. Am i not using enough heat???

I even used the wet stuff instead of the blue and i still did not get a good result. someone help me[/u]

[D Wagner]

I have been trying to make circuit boards using the Press and Peel Blue. I have not been having much success. I design the board using express PCB and do a "print screen" and paste it into paint and size it up right and then print it using an HP Laserjet 5L. The print comes out pretty good. It probably coud be better but i dont think thats the problem. I clean the copper with a brillo pad until the copper is shiny, then i iron the stuff on and I even wait a while to make sure. I cool it off and then when i peel it off, half of it is on, and half is not. I dont understand what im doing wrong. Am i not using enough heat???

I even used the wet stuff instead of the blue and i still did not get a good result. someone help me[/u]

Michael,

Get some 400 grit wet dry sandpaper and good quality paper towels.  

First, clean the boards with acetone or alcohol.  At the very least, use some plain old soap: NO lotions or moisturizers.  The alcohol or acetone is the best.

Next, sand the boards under running water in both directions (N-S and E-W) and in a circular motion until the boards are super shiny.  

Be sure to sand off any ridges at the edges of the boards.  This can prevent the iron from making proper contact.

Now, dry the board well, but hold it by the edges to avoid any body oils.

Turn the iron to the point where the steam setting begins.  (You will not be using steam.)  This is usually 3/4 of the way around the dial or so.

Align the transfer with the copper, and carefully place it on the ironing surface.  I prefer wood or the tile floor.  Cover it with a piece of white paper and carefully set the HOT iron on the board for a few seconds.  After the initial setting of the iron, move the iron in a circular motion with modest pressure.  Be sure to iron all the way to the edges (that you properly sanded down in an earlier step).  Don't press too hard, or you will melt the traces and pads.

After about 4 to 5 minutes of ironing, your board should be ready to run under cold water.  You will know it is ready when the traces look like they are pulling away from the PnP Blue sheet.

Use the paper to scoop up the searing hot board and toss it in the sink.  Run some cold tap water over it to cool it, and then pick it up and hold the board where the water can gently wash the paper from the board.

You should now have a perfect transfer ready to etch, drill and populate.

I hope that this helps.

Derek

[MartyB]

Try using a toner transfer copier instead of a laserjet, and set it to moderately dark.  Make sure your copperclad is flat.  I know this sounds picky but some boards have thready 'show-through' of fiberglass fibers.  Smallbear's cc is very reliable.  If there's any texture to the copper side at all the transfers are disappointing.  If your doing a bunch of sanding and/or trying to heat/iron much more than 10-15 seconds, you're probably using wrong or difficult materials.  Fastidious cleaning and scrubbing hasn't been necessary for me.  I wash the board with dish soap, rinse and either air-dry or if I'm in a hurry, use a hair dryer. The iron is set for permanent press (roughly).  I iron on a flat hard surface (actually the scavenged bottom of an old iron).

HTH
MartyB

[michael_krell]

im begining to think my problem is the ironing surface. I was ironing on a soft kind of thing that my mom uses for ironing quilts. ill try tile or something.

[Mark Hammer]

A nice smooth 1" thick piece of mdf board works fine as an ironing surface.

I don't know if it is winter where you live, but when I iron on patterns in the winter, I like to cool off the boards by simply pressing them up against the glass.

Cleanliness of the copper surface IS key, though.  The toner *loves* copper and adheres to it...if given the chance.  Any moisture like condensation or "finger juice" will impede that.

If you are using PnP blue, I find that when it is properly ironed onto the surface, I can see the pattern emerge through the plastic in a sort of "bas relief".

[michael_krell]

When i used the blue, it did come through like your talking about, i thought i finally got i right, but when i peeled it off. Negatory. Half of it was was not stuck.

[BlackFlag1313]

You've got to get the board hot enough.  The copper has to get hot but not too hot (this is a practice thing.)    If it gets too hot, you'll start to melt the pnp's blue emulsion surface to the board.  

You need a firm, heat resistant surface to iron the board on.  A piece of plywood works swell.

You need to apply some pressure from the iron while moving it around.  I gently press the edge of the iron while moving in a circular pattern.  The gentle pressure of the iron with the heat really helps to transfer the pattern onto the board in one piece.

After five minutes or so, I quickly rinse the board and pnp film under a cold, running tap.  I never let the board cool first.  The water is much more about temperature than rinsing off something to my understanding.  

Clean up any gaps with a Sharpie marker (several times to get a thick enough mark) or with the rub on transfer stuff.

After a few dozen of these under your belt, you'll be able to transfer complex designs with thin traces with near 100% success. :lol:

[michael_krell]

do you think it has something to do with my printer or toner. I have a HP laser printer. Its a laserjet 5L.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

do you think it has something to do with my printer or toner. I have a HP laser printer. Its a laserjet 5L.

The tendency with modern printers is to make the toner as thin a layer as possible (remember the first Xerox machines where you could feel the print wiht your thumbnail?) and this doesn't help.

But, I think the problem is much likelier not being hot enough, or not pressing hard enough, or havign the edge of the board with rough points that stop the iron getting into hard enough contact with the surface of the board, or all three.

Some people get stuff to work the first time they try.. it didn't work for me!

[michael_krell]

I decided to use a piece of birch plywood as an ironing surface and i got great great success. It worked like a charm. Probably not as good as i can get but it was definetly good. thanks for all your help. I created the rebote 2 delay board from generalguitargadgets site. Its awesome, im going to put it inside of a wah shell and get me some variable time delay action. woo hoo

[michael_krell]

Ive been trying to solder my board but ive noticed that the solder is not sticking very well. I cleaned the board with brillo before i started soldering, does that have something to do with it?

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Ive been trying to solder my board but ive noticed that the solder is not sticking very well. I cleaned the board with brillo before i started soldering, does that have something to do with it?

More likely, the tracks aren't getting hot enough. Cleaning with steel wool is a GOOD thing (assuming, of course, that the steel wool doesn't have oil or soap added to it).

[michael_krell]

brilo does have soap in it, im guessing that is the problem.

[MartyB]

I've used a solution called 'Tinnit' to improve solder adherence to pcbs.  It also has the advantage of preventing oxidation.  It's a powder that mixes up with water.  One mix will last approx. 6 mo.  Easy to use.  

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=ER-18&type=store

[KORGULL]

I like to rub the board with plain, dry, steel wool (extra fine) then wipe clean with isopropyl alcohol.

[mojotron]

Ive been trying to solder my board but ive noticed that the solder is not sticking very well. I cleaned the board with brillo before i started soldering, does that have something to do with it?

I clean the toner off with lacquer thinner then a pink eraser works great to clean the traces a bit more, but clean with acetone afterword...

Other than that, make sure you get good contact with the wire and the trace before flowing the solder as well...

[mojotron]

How I got 5 perfect boards done last night - in about the same time it took to do one using the picture paper method... I LOVE PNP!!!  

Get some 400 grit wet dry sandpaper and good quality paper towels.  

First, clean the boards with acetone or alcohol.  At the very least, use some plain old soap: NO lotions or moisturizers.  The alcohol or acetone is the best.

Next, sand the boards under running water in both directions (N-S and E-W) and in a circular motion until the boards are super shiny.  

Be sure to sand off any ridges at the edges of the boards.  This can prevent the iron from making proper contact.

Now, dry the board well, but hold it by the edges to avoid any body oils.

Turn the iron to the point where the steam setting begins.  (You will not be using steam.)  This is usually 3/4 of the way around the dial or so.

Align the transfer with the copper, and carefully place it on the ironing surface.  I prefer wood or the tile floor.  Cover it with a piece of white paper and carefully set the HOT iron on the board for a few seconds.  After the initial setting of the iron, move the iron in a circular motion with modest pressure.  Be sure to iron all the way to the edges (that you properly sanded down in an earlier step).  Don't press too hard, or you will melt the traces and pads.

After about 4 to 5 minutes of ironing, your board should be ready to run under cold water.  You will know it is ready when the traces look like they are pulling away from the PnP Blue sheet.

Use the paper to scoop up the searing hot board and toss it in the sink.  Run some cold tap water over it to cool it, and then pick it up and hold the board where the water can gently wash the paper from the board.

You should now have a perfect transfer ready to etch, drill and populate.

I hope that this helps.

Derek

I thought I would try something new as the Picture paper http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm method "works", but is a heck of a lot of work....

So I got some PNP and used the above technique with outstanding results!! A few exceptions though....

What I did was:
0) Read this guys WWW page - note just the section "the complete procedure" http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm

Note only the section where he talks about how he cleans the board, and especially the method he uses to iron the whole board - you use much lower heat with PNP, but how he describes getting the whole board ironed is exactly what I do....

My new method...:
1) cut the copper clad board to about the size +1/4" to 1/8" bigger then your image to transfer.

And, set the Iron to polyester - or just under the wool setting...

2) do an initial cleaning of the copper clad board with 100% acetone - not a super cleaning job - just get the dust and oil off before sanding

3) sand with 220 grit wet/dry sandpaper - using a lot of water - go the entire length of the board top to botom - really concentrate on all 4 edges - get them really smooth, rotate 180 degrees and sand top to bottom again, rotate 90 degrees sand top to bottom, rotate 45 degrees and sand top to bottom then finally rotate 180 degrees and sand top to bottom.. so you end up doing top to bottom, then bottom to top, left to right then diaginally....

don't press too hard, but hard enough to feel some traction while using lots of water... you should see a shiny surface with lots of tiny tiny groves for the toner to bond to.

Note: 400 grit works too, but the 220 grit makes a rougher surface - more surface area for the toner to cling to... just don't sand as hard - or use 2ounce copper clad... I use 1 ounce coper clad....

4) Be extreemly careful not to touch to board surface with your fingers... Now, clean the board with acetone, using a lot of acetone on the first cleaning. Just pour the acetone on the copper and rub with a clean paper towel (I use cheap white paper towels - leaves a tun of fibers everywhere - but don't worry about those for now...)

5) Repeat step 4 until the paper towel is completely clean. I ussually repeat step 4 about 4 or 5 times - using less acetone each time - on the fourth or fifth cleaning I just use a couple of drops. Having an absolutely clean board is critical... gentally blow the paper towel particals off of the board - being careful not to spit  :oops: on your board - this aint no birthday cake!! :wink:

6) Put the copper clad board on a piece of plywood. Put the PNP over the copper clad to be used, toner side down.

7) Set a timer for 5 minutes. Start the timer

8 - Put a sheet of clean paper on top the the PNP (the shinny side should be up and the toner side should be down - face down on the coper-clad board). Press the iron with about 50lbs of pressure on to the white paper where the board for 30 seconds.... Then complete the ironing method described

9) When the timer goes off, apply direct presure for about 20 seconds and put it in a bowl of luke warm water. Wait until the temp of the board is the same as the water - I wait about 20 seconds.

10) remove the board from the water. Put the back (the fiber glass side) of the board under really cold running water for 10 seconds. Then, flip the board over and carefully peal the PNP off of the board.

11) wash with soap and water, rinse completly... then etch.... I use the heated echent method, but that does not matter too much as long as you check on your board every 5 minutes or so while etching...

When I added D Wagner's technique to my previous method and applied it to PNP I got 5 perfect boards done in less then an hour... I was so amazed. The picture paper method does work, but from my experience I will never use anything but PNP from now on!!

One more note - I just bought a new HP microfine toner cartrage for my HP Laerjet3150 - that might have helped with my results too... but there is no way to tell... except that I think my old toner cartrage was doing basically an acceptable job until I monkied with it  :oops: and broke it.

Thanks D Wagner for your notes!!
I hope my additional notes help some of you as well.

[Wild Zebra]

if you still are looking for help, I've done all my boards using PNP and the www.tonepad.com photoessay is very nice.  I think its really important to get the edges sanded down. I'm suer this has all been covered, but thought I'd add my input.


"your stripes are killer bro"

[Rodgre]

I would like to add that the laser printer COULD be part of the problem.

Like someone else said, the laser printer makes for a thin layer of black.

I get the best results using an older black-only copier with the setting for a little on the darker side. This makes for a thicker image.

When I've used laser color copiers or modern laser black copiers, I've had poor results.

I have to say that i've never used a laser printer straight from my computer, however. I always print it on paper, then take it to the copy shop.

Roger

[mojotron]

I would like to add that the laser printer COULD be part of the problem.

Like someone else said, the laser printer makes for a thin layer of black.

I get the best results using an older black-only copier with the setting for a little on the darker side. This makes for a thicker image.

When I've used laser color copiers or modern laser black copiers, I've had poor results.

I have to say that i've never used a laser printer straight from my computer, however. I always print it on paper, then take it to the copy shop.

Roger

The guy that wrote up the Staple Picture Paper method made a big deal out of using the Microfine toner from HP... and I agree with that...

I tried everything I could only to find that this is actually true. The referbished toners and other brands may be an issue from my experience using copiers, other laser printers and laserjet printers w/referbished (officemax) toner.... I simply went and got a used HP Laserjet 3150 off of ebay, ripped it apart, replaced all of the rolers and little arms that wear out... and bought a new Microfine toner cartrage when I broke the old one.. Now, using the method above works great - only one tiny trace needs to be fixed - out of 1000's on the boards I did last night. And, I think the trace that got messed up was because of some paper towel fibers that I left on the board... (forgot to blow it off of the board first :wink: )

I'm not sure if a copier place would be reliable enough, considering the time/effort involved in making good boards - the cost of the printer+toner+PNP is fairly minimal if you need to make even a few a week....