R.G??? Please help me:):) Or any other..

[ESPguitar]

I'm trying to build one of the remote bypass systems that RG has designed.. I can't get it to work right..

It worked almost as it should, the only thing was that it only switched on/off with 2 poles on the switch and not with the quick open time as the switch should give when i pushed it..


If somebody maybe can help me i will gladly explain in details though it's not so very much to telll less than i've tryed to build two different systems now 3 or 4 times.. And it won't function right..


http://www.geofex.com/

Can't post the direct link since the file is not written in the URL..

But this is the article on the front page of geo:

2/27/03 A remote footswitch bypassing system, now including draft PCB layouts for review. Bypass up to six effects from a remote footswitch. Also bypass them ALL with one footswitch. Relay bypass, CMOS logic, 100% fun. Still being developed - your input is welcome!

:cry:
:cry:
:cry:
:cry:
Thanks,

RB

[Chico]

ESPguitar:

I am not sure I understand your problem.  Could you provide more details?

As just a shot in the dark, the places I would start would be to check as follows:

Do you have an appropriate power supply for powering your relays?  

Does each transitor turn on when a voltage is applied to the base of the transistor?  Are your LED/Resistor combinations following your switching state?

Did you include RG's spdt switches for manual operation?  Do they properly switch the transistors on and off when the CMOS side is disconnected?  

Are your transistors inserted properly?  Does the capacitor bridge between the base and collector of the transistors?


I have and use a remote switcher that I built, and this article was a pretty substantial influence.  I drive my relays from an Atmel AVR instead of the CMOS logic, so I cannot help you there, but as far as the relay side of the circuit is concerned, and in particular with page 3 of that document, if your circuit is built per that schematic, that much of your project will work as advertised.

Don't get discouraged with these relay based projects as the effort is well worth it in the end.

Best regards

Tom

[R.G.]

This thing can be debugged like any other.

First you get your power supply right.

What DC power supply voltage/source are you using?

Measure the DC voltage at the power supply pin and ground pin on every IC and report them back here.

Did you use my circuit **exactly** or were there mods?

[R.G.]

While I'm thinking about it, did you do any divide and conquer?

Did you, for instance, hook a voltmeter up to only one switch circuit and see if pushing the switch set/reset the flipflop? And if the relay drive part worked correctly by having a high/low on its input?

[ESPguitar]

Thanks,

i've build a power suplly myself and it works and it delivers a constant voltage on 12v..  (i have checked that 256,6 times )

i will test the trigger later today, can i destroy these ic's? in any way..



Robin  B

[ESPguitar]

Yes and the relays and the led connected before the led works as it should when i set voltage right on to the circuit after the 2n3904..

RB

[ESPguitar]

And the lsat thing..

Yes i used your schems exactly as you have writen them..

What do you mean with this???:
Measure the DC voltage at the power supply pin and ground pin on every IC and report them back here.

Should i power each chip with + and - 12V?? (at pin 7(-) an pin 14(+)??



RB

[R.G.]

What do you mean with this???:
Measure the DC voltage at the power supply pin and ground pin on every IC and report them back here.

Should i power each chip with + and - 12V?? (at pin 7(-) an pin 14(+)??

Just to verify with a voltmeter that every pin that was supposed to be at +12 was indeed at +12 and that every pin that was supposed to be at zero volts was truly at zero volts. No, don't use +/-12. I was not being as clear as I could have been.

Yes and the relays and the led connected before the led works as it should when i set voltage right on to the circuit after the 2n3904..

Just so I don't misunderstand - that means that you have manually put high voltage/low voltage on the 10K resistor at the base of the 2N3904's and the relay and LED react as intended - that is, a high voltage causes the relay to pull in and the LED on the relay to light up? Is that correct?

If it is, I would proceed as follows:
1) remove the CD40106/74C14 from its socket on the relay board. Remove the cable to the remote switch unit. Apply +12V power and ground to the relay board.
2) test: with voltmeter black/- lead connected to ground/zero volts, probe pin 14 in the IC socket, looking for 12Vdc; probe pin 7, looking for 0Vdc.
3) if test 2 was successful, test: using a 10K resistor, insert one end of the resistor into pin 14 of the IC socket to connect it to +12. One by one, touch the other end of the resistor to pins 2, 4, 6, 8, 10,12 of the IC socket and verify that the relay clicks and the LED comes on for that channel. Remove power from the relay board.
4) if test 3 was successful, test: put the CD40106/74C14 back in the socket. Flip all the on/off switches on the relay board to "on". Apply power and connect a 10K resistor to +12 on one end. Touch the other end of the 10K resistor in turn to the IC leads at pins 1, 3, 5, 9,11,13. Verify that the relay clicks and the LEDs come on. Now touch the 10K resistor to the cable end of the 2.2K resistors which are the input resistors for the six channels. Verify that the relays click and the LEDs come on. Remove power from the relay board.
5) plug the remote board into the cable and the cable into the relay board. Apply power. Connect your voltmeter black/- lead to zero volts/ground on the remote board, and test: probe pins 14 and 7 on each CD4013 and CD40106/74C14. Verify that that +12 appears on each pin 14 and 0V appears on each pin 7.
6) test: probe pins 4 and 10 on each CD4013. They should all be at 0V.
7) test: Note the error in the schematic ( :shock:  did *I* do that? I do apologize for your wasted time if this is the only problem) and remove power, then reconnect the "bypass all" switch so that only one of its lugs connects to ground, not both. Reconnect power. Probe all pins 6 and 8 and verify that in one of the "bypass all" switch positions they are at +12V, and in the other switch position they are at 0V. Remove power from the board.
Remove the CD40106/74C14 from its socket on the remote board. Apply power to the board. Insert one end of a 10K resistor in pin 14 of the socket. Test: touch the free end of the 10K resistor to pins 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 of the CD40106/74C14 socket. Touching the pin should cause the LED on the output of the CD4013 to go on and off on alternate touches. Remove power from the board.
9) Reinsert the CD40106/74C14 into its socket. Apply power to the board. Test: verify that +12V appears at the throws of all the footswitches except the "bypass all" switch.
10) verify that the On/off switch on the relay board works in all cases.

If all tests pass - and you rewire the bypass all switch - it should now be working.

[ESPguitar]

What do you mean with this???:
Measure the DC voltage at the power supply pin and ground pin on every IC and report them back here.

Should i power each chip with + and - 12V?? (at pin 7(-) an pin 14(+)??

Just to verify with a voltmeter that every pin that was supposed to be at +12 was indeed at +12 and that every pin that was supposed to be at zero volts was truly at zero volts. No, don't use +/-12. I was not being as clear as I could have been.

Yes and the relays and the led connected before the led works as it should when i set voltage right on to the circuit after the 2n3904..

Just so I don't misunderstand - that means that you have manually put high voltage/low voltage on the 10K resistor at the base of the 2N3904's and the relay and LED react as intended - that is, a high voltage causes the relay to pull in and the LED on the relay to light up? Is that correct?

If it is, I would proceed as follows:
1) remove the CD40106/74C14 from its socket on the relay board. Remove the cable to the remote switch unit. Apply +12V power and ground to the relay board.
2) test: with voltmeter black/- lead connected to ground/zero volts, probe pin 14 in the IC socket, looking for 12Vdc; probe pin 7, looking for 0Vdc.
3) if test 2 was successful, test: using a 10K resistor, insert one end of the resistor into pin 14 of the IC socket to connect it to +12. One by one, touch the other end of the resistor to pins 2, 4, 6, 8, 10,12 of the IC socket and verify that the relay clicks and the LED comes on for that channel. Remove power from the relay board.
4) if test 3 was successful, test: put the CD40106/74C14 back in the socket. Flip all the on/off switches on the relay board to "on". Apply power and connect a 10K resistor to +12 on one end. Touch the other end of the 10K resistor in turn to the IC leads at pins 1, 3, 5, 9,11,13. Verify that the relay clicks and the LEDs come on. Now touch the 10K resistor to the cable end of the 2.2K resistors which are the input resistors for the six channels. Verify that the relays click and the LEDs come on. Remove power from the relay board.
5) plug the remote board into the cable and the cable into the relay board. Apply power. Connect your voltmeter black/- lead to zero volts/ground on the remote board, and test: probe pins 14 and 7 on each CD4013 and CD40106/74C14. Verify that that +12 appears on each pin 14 and 0V appears on each pin 7.
6) test: probe pins 4 and 10 on each CD4013. They should all be at 0V.
7) test: Note the error in the schematic ( :shock:  did *I* do that? I do apologize for your wasted time if this is the only problem) and remove power, then reconnect the "bypass all" switch so that only one of its lugs connects to ground, not both. Reconnect power. Probe all pins 6 and 8 and verify that in one of the "bypass all" switch positions they are at +12V, and in the other switch position they are at 0V. Remove power from the board.
Remove the CD40106/74C14 from its socket on the remote board. Apply power to the board. Insert one end of a 10K resistor in pin 14 of the socket. Test: touch the free end of the 10K resistor to pins 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 of the CD40106/74C14 socket. Touching the pin should cause the LED on the output of the CD4013 to go on and off on alternate touches. Remove power from the board.
9) Reinsert the CD40106/74C14 into its socket. Apply power to the board. Test: verify that +12V appears at the throws of all the footswitches except the "bypass all" switch.
10) verify that the On/off switch on the relay board works in all cases.

If all tests pass - and you rewire the bypass all switch - it should now be working.

Ok,

(i'm biulding it on a test-board..  :wink:

Anyway, we can start at the transistor part,  when i put the black cord (0volts) at the collector bone of the 2n3904, the led lightens up and the relay switch exactly as it should.. But when i put the (-) cord at the base nothing happends, i've tried with two different 2n3904..

But when i put the 12+V cord at before the 10K resistor at the base then it lightens up..

And when i put 12+V at any of the pins on the 4013 everything works.. But when i put it on leg 1 on the remote boards 40106 (pin 2 is output TO the 4013 and pin 3 is input for the 4013) the led's just blinks and nothing more happends.. But if i use pin 1 as output and 2 as input on the remote boards 40106 and when i apply a current 12+ DC voltage at pin 2 it lightens up and the relay switch..

Should there be a constant voltage from the remote switch?
It won't work with the switch-function you have wrotten downin the schematic.. When i pull the bypass all switch the leds and the relay turns off but it's still a bit light in the leds..

But how can the IC get voltage if it's don't connected to the remote board?

Have i done right?

Can the chips be destroyed in any way?

I pick up some new chips today just to check..

Thanks,

Robin B

[ESPguitar]

i inserted new chips now they behave different.. Looks like the 40106 trigger's work as they should or not.. Iy doesn't blink when i set voltage on the remote boards trigger.. Nothing happends..
:cry:

RB

[R.G.]

OK. Let's do things a bit more simply.

- pick *one* channel that we're going to get working.
- go through that from relay backwards until we verify that channel as functioning.
- I expect that the errors we find in this process will tell us how to make the other channels work.

Are your ICs in sockets? I think they are from how you've talked, but I have not yet asked directly. Please verify that for me.

When I ask you to verify something, please note back to me something like a quotation of my question, and an explicit answer like "yes, it has 0V across it" or "no, the voltage does not change". This will let us proceed in an orderly way and not miss anything.

In this instance, the answer would be "yes, they are in sockets" or "no, they are soldered in" or something similar.

1) remove all the ICs from their sockets, using good antistatic handling procedures.
2) Pick one relay/transistor/buffer/flipflop/switch circuit to test. It doesn't matter which one, just pick one "channel" from front (switch) to back (relay).
3)Solder a 10K resistor lead to 6"/150mm of insulated wire. This is your test lead for applying stimulus to the board. Solder the end of the wire that's NOT atached to the 10K resistor to a source of +12V on the board. You will probe certain points in the circuit with the free end of that 10K resistor to apply +12 to circuit elements as I tell you.
4) Apply power to the board that has the chosen relay in it. Verify that there is 0V across the relay coil and 12V from collector to emitter across the driver transistor. While we're at it, did you check the pinout of the 3904 to be sure it's hooked up correctly?
5)Touch the base of the 3904 with the end of the 10K and watch the relay and LED. Does the LED light up and stay lit up as long as the 10K resistor is touched to the transistor base? Verify that the voltage across the 3904 transistor goes to less than 0.5V when the base is being touched by the 10K. Remove power from the board.
6) Insert the CD40106/74C14 that drives the chosen relay and transistor. Apply power. The way the logic works, just sitting there like this, the relay and its LED should be ON.

Measure the DC voltage at pin 14 and pin 7 and report them here. Report back which pins you are using for input and output for this one channel. Measure the DC voltages on the input and output pins and report that back.

Touch the input pin with the free end of your 10K resistor. The LED and relay should go off as long as the 10K resistor probe touches the input pin.

Do that, report the results back and we'll go on from there.

[ESPguitar]

First:

I have just build one "channel" and it's on a testboard.

1: So the IC's is not in sockets..

2: The 3904 (emitter to -) (Base to resistor) (Collector to relay, led and the diode)

When i say - i mean the black cord from my power supply.


I asked you earlier about if the IC's should be powered, Should they?
(with the red wire from the power supply on pin 14 an the black one on pin 7) Is that correct? (that's how it's written in the schem)


I'm starting to check the rest now (and all the IC's is wired up with  + & -)

Thanks,

RB

[R.G.]

Ah... OK, I understand better now. Most often people build the whole mess first and then have problems.

I asked you earlier about if the IC's should be powered, Should they? (with the red wire from the power supply on pin 14 an the black one on pin 7) Is that correct? (that's how it's written in the schem)

Yes - when you want the IC's to work, they must be connected with the Vdd pin to +12 and the Vss pin to ground.

[ESPguitar]

Here's the results!

Yes The IC's is not in sockets they are on a testboard..

1) Yes i did..

2) That one also:P

3) And that one too..

4) There is 0 volts across the relay coil..
And it's 12 volts across Collector-Emitter on the 3904.

Pinout=
Collector to relay side..
Base to resistor(and 40106)
Emitter to ground(- or black cord from the power supply)

5) Yes the led light up and the relay switch on when i touch transistor base with the 10K resistor connected to +..
The voltage across emitter-collector is 0.090 volts when i touch the base with the 10K resistor..

6) The led and the relay is on when the 40106 is "just" there.. The voltage across pin 7 and 14 is 12,04 volts.. (could it be something else)

Pin-1 = From the 4013 IC.
Pin-2 = To resistor (10K) and the 3904.
Pin-7 = From Power supply -
Pin-14 = From Power Supply +

The voltage across input and output (pin 1 and 2) is 2,39 volts..

When i touch the input pin (pin 1) with the end of the 10K resistor the relay an the led turns off as long as i touch the input pin with the 10K resitor.

So as i can see everything is how it should be(?) (so far)

Thanks,

RB

[ESPguitar]

Ah... OK, I understand better now. Most often people build the whole mess first and then have problems.

I asked you earlier about if the IC's should be powered, Should they? (with the red wire from the power supply on pin 14 an the black one on pin 7) Is that correct? (that's how it's written in the schem)

Yes - when you want the IC's to work, they must be connected with the Vdd pin to +12 and the Vss pin to ground.

I thought it was better to buy that board for 20 bucks instead of etching pcb's soldering everything to the board and then find that oh shit it doesn't work.. When i see that it functions right on the board i make the PCB and soldering things:)

Just saving me for some money i guess.. And i don't need to be sooooooooo frustrated.. :wink:


RB

[R.G.]

Good. That part is working correctly. Now we work on the flipflop.

We have proven that if you put a high voltage on the input to the inverter which drives the transistor/relay, then the relay turns off, and a low voltage turns the relay on (the input is tied to ground in the absence of an input, which is what turns it off).

1) Verify which pins on the 4013 flipflop you are using for the half of it we are to use for this one channel.
2) With power off, plug the 4013 into position, and use your voltmeter, black lead to ground/0V and probing with the red lead. Touch the power pins on the 4013, and also each pin you are using for this channel, and record the voltages, then send them back in your report on this step of the process.
3) Verify that you have the LED hooked up on the flipflop, in addition to the one on the relay.
4) temporarily hook up a 100K resistor from the ck pin you are using to ground in your testboard.
5) touch the ck pin with your 10K probe. The LED on the flipflop (and also the one on the relay) should turn on and off on alternate touches to the clock pin. Write back what actually happens.

[ESPguitar]

Ok,

I use a 4013BE IC from Texas Instruments.. (just as you now it)

Pin 1 - To the 40106 at the relay side..

Pin 2 - Goes to pin 5 and to the remote boards LED..

Pin 3 - From the remote boards 40106.

Pin 4 - Ground(-)

Pin 5 - Connected with pin 2..

Pin 6 - From Bypass all switch..

I HAVEN'T HOOKES UP THE BYPASS ALL SWITCH! Is that neccesary? i will connect it when i mount it oinside a box)

Pin 7 - (-)

Pin14 - (+)

2) Black test-lead to ground.

Pin 1 - 12,03 V

Pin 2 - 0.005 V

Pin 3 - 0,178 V

Pin 4 - 0,000 V

Pin 5 - 0,000 V

Pin 6 - 0,100 V

Pin 7 - 0,000 V

Pin14 - 12,05 V

3,4,5) When i touch the 100K resistor (from -) with the 10K probe (from +) The leds and the relay turns on exactly like it should, but when i touch it one more time nothing happends..

RB

[R.G.]

Since you don't have the bypass-all hooked up, you need to connect pin 6 through a resistor to ground. Any resistor of 100K or less will do.

You also *must* tie the clock pin (3) to ground through a resistor. The clock works on positive going edges. If you have not tied it down through a resistor, the first UP transition clocks the chip, but the clock does not fall to be ready and no more up transitions can get though.

So - tie pin 6 and pin 3 to ground through resistors of about 100K, then try probing the clock pin (3) with the 10K again. Tell me what you find.

[ESPguitar]

I connected pin 3 and 6 through a 100K resistor each.. When i powered the unit up everything went on.. i guess thets Ok..

When i touched pin 6 with the 10K resistor from + it turned off..
When i touched pin 3 with the 10K resistor from + it turned on..
When i touched pin 3 again nothing happened..

I can hook up the bypass all switch? If that's neccesary..


RB

[R.G.]

I connected pin 3 and 6 through a 100K resistor each.. When i powered the unit up everything went on.. i guess thets Ok..

Yes. That's OK at this stage.

When i touched pin 6 with the 10K resistor from + it turned off..
When i touched pin 3 with the 10K resistor from + it turned on..
When i touched pin 3 again nothing happened..

The first and second things are as I would expect. The third thing is not what I would expect.

1) power off, then break the connection to ground from pin 4. Insert a 100K to ground from pin 4, so pin 4 is grounded through the 100K.
2) verify for me - pin 6 has its own resistor to ground, and pin 3 has its own resistor to ground, not a single resistor for both pins; make sure each of pin3 and 6 has its own resistor to ground, the power on and measure the voltage on pins 3, 4, 5, and 6 and report them back
3) touch the 10K resistor to pin 6; the remote LED should go out. touch the resistor to pin 4; the remote LED should go on. Measure the voltage at pin 2 and pin 5 in both conditions. They should always be the same.
4) now touch pin 3. the LED should go on and off on alternate touches. does it?