Something Rich And Strange

[GFR]

they had difficulty tying their own shoes, holding normal conversations

Hey, are talking about me?

:lol:

[Joe Kramer]

There won't be any completely novel ideas for effects, because sound has only three basic parameters: pitch, volume, and timbre.  You can't add any others any more than you can invent a fourth primary color.

[object88]

There won't be any completely novel ideas for effects, because sound has only three basic parameters: pitch, volume, and timbre.  You can't add any others any more than you can invent a fourth primary color.

Except that there potentially is a fourth primary color, of sorts.  A few years ago, a person was discovered to see the world in tetrachromatic color-- 4 channels, not just 3.

So... yeah.  Not that simple.  

[DiyFreaque]

Well - after posting that message in that particular thread, I immediatley questioned my judgment of putting it there, and moments later - lock down!

RG - the modular stompbox ideer is an awesome one indeed.  

For anyone wanting a quick modular stompbox, a rack of some already made modular stuff may be the ticket - you'd just want to make sure you had something to boost the guitar up to synth levels going in, and certainly something to knock it back down coming out.  I imagine there's plenty'o'people doing just that these days.  Seems to me that the guitarist for Chili Peppers(?) got a Buchla Low Pass Gate clone for his guitar...that would be pretty cool.

This week, a forum member sent me some awesome guitar clips of an Ampeg Scrambler, Aquavibe and a Envelope Filter (dang, can't remember the name of it - sounded great).

Anyway, the envelope filter got me thinking about my own experience with a Buchla filter from the Buchla 200 series the 291 BPF filter.  As synth filters go, it's in a class all by itself, IMHO - nothing sounds quite like it.  Buchla synth's are pretty radical synths, and the common term that comes up when it's being described is the word 'organic' - they act as if they're almost living beings.  A lot of that has to do with the control structure set up in them, but just as much for the *sound* of them.  A very key factor in the sound of Buchla's is the extensive use of Vactrols.  Don Buchla favored them because they kept the control voltages and audio signals distinctly separate.  The Vactrols impart their own flavor to the sound and response of these circuits.  In the Synth world, the sound of the Low Pass Gate cannot be mistaken - you know it as soon as you hear it.  It's a very 'woody' kind of sound.

Which leads me to the Buchla 291 filter.  Without going into a lot of detail, the original Buchla 291 was a band pass filter with voltage (and manual) control over bandwidth and center frequency.  It has a very 'organic', rubbery quality to it as well.  

There was an additional control for the center frequency called 'FM'.  This particular input was AC coupled.  The combination of AC coupling and the respone of the Vactrols, under wide BW settings, can give a very echo-like sound when sending pulses through it.  I've found myself reaching for my echo box on more than one occasion to adjust it only to find out it wasn't even on, it can be that convincing.  

This is one circuit I think would translate to guitar very well and have a very distinctive sound to it that no other follower would have, IMHO, especially if novel use of the BW control and center frequency were made *and* if one had a square wave generator LFO to drive the FM input.  If someone could translate that sucker to a stompbox, well then Robert would be your father's brother (again IMHO).  One might note that the Vactrols used *must* be VTL5C3's - this is the golden BB for both this filter and the Low Pass Gate module.

Forgive the quality of these samples, I made them quite a while back when I was just getting my recording 'Sea Legs'.  I'll also add that I hacked in a Low Pas Output and a High Pass output:

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/lpfm1.mp3

LPFM1 is the low pass output with pulses going into the FM input, with a short envelope.  The extra little 'sound' you hear on each note at 0:18 is a pulse coming through (I recorded these through an amp with some spring reverb only).  In fact, all of the rhythmical pulsing is the FM input being modulated by a square LFO.

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/bpfm1.mp3
http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/bpfm2.mp3

BPFM1 and BPFM2 use the Band Pass output.  The input to these are various FM'ed VCO sounds.  Pulsing again is courtesy of the FM input.  

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/hpfm1.mp3

HPFM1 uses the HP output that I hacked.  There is an effect at the beginning that sounds almost like a slow repeat - that is actually done by modulating the BW CV input.

Anyway, I think one great thing would be to have a trigger generator that would be fired by the amplitude of the plucked note - this would be a way of controlling the pulses on a note per note basis - this would effectively be using the natural response curve of the VTL5C3 as your envelope generator.  Depending on the BW setting it would range from 'thwip' to 'thwap' to 'thunk'.  Hmm, guess you gotta be there....

Of course, the regular CV input could be used in the more traditional envelope generating style, though I bet it won't sound quite like any other follower out there. And how about modulating the BW with the guitars envelope or a pedal?  Yikes!

Also, bear in mind, this is a many varied filter, and this is only a subset of the sounds I've gotten out of the thing.

Oh, and if anyone wants to hear what I mean by how the Low Pass Gate sounds, there is a long multi-track composition here:

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/lpgd84.mp3

The LPG is a very special module in synthdom and I think could go a long way in Guitar Land as well.  Um, warning - the composition is 5.8 MB and is *very* weird.  Other than the SSM2040 filter drones recorded in the background, the Low Pass gate was used exclusively for all of the...er....sounds (along with ring modulation, FM, AM).

Sorry for the book!

Cheers,
Scott

[Joe Kramer]

For anyone wanting a quick modular stompbox, a rack of some already made modular stuff may be the ticket - you'd just want to make sure you had something to boost the guitar up to synth levels going in, and certainly something to knock it back down coming out.  I imagine there's plenty'o'people doing just that these days.  Seems to me that the guitarist for Chili Peppers(?) got a Buchla Low Pass Gate clone for his guitar...that would be pretty cool.

This week, a forum member sent me some awesome guitar clips of an Ampeg Scrambler, Aquavibe and a Envelope Filter (dang, can't remember the name of it - sounded great).

Not only does the man know whereof he speaks electronically, but he has exquisite taste in sound!

Indeed, a guitar grows tentacles when running through a Korg MS-20 (or Stephen Giles's EH guit synth I suppose), but if only the whole thing could be crammed into a Hammond box and run on a nine-volt battery!

[DiyFreaque]

Oh, those were great samples!  The playing was great and selection of music was perfect for the effect.  I thought Sly and the Family Stone might just come out of my monitor and jam for a brief instant when first listening to the filter sample, and Robin Trower would have to shove them aside so I could hear the Aquavibe...

And, the samples made me think in the other direction - something like the Scrambler, for example, may make an absolutely wild module for the synth.  That thing is crazy!

Forgot to mention about the Vactrol filter modules - they're very *quiet* (a nice nature of the optocoupler beast).

ZVex's Seek Wah (though I don't know the actualy inspiration for it, though it strikes me as a very synth-application-like) and Frostwave's resonator are two good examples of merging two worlds (Frostwave actually straddles both worlds quite well - never heard a less-than-enthusiastic comment about any Frostwave product on either side, either).  Guess I better read up on the Giles synth - how did I miss that?

There are lots of things out there - the MaM triple band pass resonator (totally different beast than the Frostwave resonator, BTW) comes to mind.  It was begat by the Korg PS3100 series synth resonator.  Actually quite a simple circuit in its original form, but again, *killer* in my opinion.

It can sound very phase-shifter-like or it can sound totally un-phase-shifter like.  I think if it was adapted to guitar signal level....oh, mama....

Another nice thing about the LPG, 291, and Resonator - no unobtainum is used in the circuits.  I've used VTL5C3's (or VTL5C3/2's) in all of these, and the rest of the components are also still in production.

Cheers,
Scott

[Joe Kramer]

Thanks for the compliments--they mean a lot to me coming from you.

The Scrambler circuit is definitely synth-worthy.  Plain old piano and organ running through that thing is just endlessly intriguing.

Your filter ideas are well-taken.  One filter I haven't heard mentioned much around here is the Anderton Super Tone Control.  It's a basic state-variable made from a quad op amp.  I've been meaning to try and adapt it for single-supply (that portability, battery thing), and the much-esteemed Vactrol for VC.

Here's the Giles thread which I refered to, and basically extrapolated from:

http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=31180&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

[Johnny Guitar]

I saw the post on the "other" thread and also was going to question it (like *so many* did already -- including Scott).

I recently finished the Analog Man Guide to Effects and remembered the part about the devlopment of the Univbe and the Phase Shifter. Being that I know nothing about electronics I was surprised that this work was really done by one person and was truly an original effect. I mean had something happend to him during development, would the phaser as we know it have even come about? Maybe an envelope follower controlling a phaser would have become the standard and the sweeping LFO phaser would have been seen as derivative.

And more to the point, how many other seemingly non-musical electronics techniques are out there which might prove useful given the right way of "looking" at them?

John

[Peter Snowberg]

Here's my favorite buzz-phrase/technical term......

I hope to mis-apply these for a next generation DSP feedbacker some day...

Cascadable Adaptive Finite Impulse Response Digital Signal Processing Algorithms :!:

I'm a long haired bicycle rider and I get pulled over by cops late at night occasionally because I look like a good 'target'. I got pulled over one night for not having a bike headlight (it was just a lame excuse) and the cop said, "Heeeeeeyyy mmmmmaaaaaaann, like where's your light, maaaaaaaaan?" So I told him I was a former badge wearing Federal Officer and asked him if he would like to discuss the design and implementation of cascadable adaptive finite impulse response digital signal processing algorithms on fixed and block floating point processor architectures? :mrgreen:

Uuuuuuuuhhhhhh..... :lol:

(these are the filters that cancel echos in cell phone calls)

[DiyFreaque]

Cellular industry terms - you gotta love'em....

Here's another one you can pull on the next %^&*y traffic cop:

"You know why I prefer algebric code excitation linear predictive vocoding?  Because vector sum excited linear predictive makes your voice sound like a mud sucking beer fart."  

'Course the cop would probably only catch the 'mud sucking beer fart' portion and cuff you.....(BTW, that is the exact term one of my instructors used to describe VSELP's effect on the human voice).

[DiyFreaque]

I mean had something happend to him during development, would the phaser as we know it have even come about? Maybe an envelope follower controlling a phaser would have become the standard and the sweeping LFO phaser would have been seen as derivative.

That's a very good question indeed, and also (I believe) a very good way to look at things.  The phase shifter, in most cases, is used cyclically with an LFO.  In a lot of ways, as useful as that is, I think it sells the all pass filter short - it's a filter, just like LP, BP, and HP.  I think sounds great controlled by others means, and I think envelope follower would be a great way to control it.  

A little over a year ago I had the Small Stone on breadboard, and I put in voltage control - it was a very good effect to use as a 'norml' filter, IE controlled with an envelope generator, keyboard CV and sample and hold.

A while later, I breadboarded a 10 stage phase shifter using VTL5C2 vactrols (because I could get them cheap at BGMicro) and had it voltage controllable as well.  Being Vactrol based, it had that twanginess associated with Vactrols, albeit being 5C2's, the response was quite slower than a 5C3.

Here's a couple of samples of it being controlled by an envelope generator and S&H  - the patch is just a VCO->phase shifter->VCA to the amplifier - no other filter was used.

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/phsh.mp3

When swept with an LFO, it sounded like the 'normal' phase shifter effect, though with the timbre of a 10 stage device.

Low resonance sweep:

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/phsh2.mp3

High resonance sweep:

http://mypeoplepc.com/members/scottnoanh/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/phsh1.mp3

Again - my early days of recording, so not the best in the world....

Take care,
Scott

[guitarhacknoise]

Your filter ideas are well-taken.  One filter I haven't heard mentioned much around here is the Anderton Super Tone Control.  It's a basic state-variable made from a quad op amp.  I've been meaning to try and adapt it for single-supply (that portability, battery thing), and the much-esteemed Vactrol for VC.

DO IT!
I just finished A rack mount version of the super tone control, sans vc. I have a populated board for C.A. 's Envelope follower, just need to nestle her in.
I originally wanted to use a single supply so I started laying out the board around a LM324.
(I know, I know,..........."Too noisy"..........But thats what I had laying around)
I scored a power supply at the thrift store that was + - 12v and +5v, so I changed over to dual supply.
Anyway, That filter is pretty fat! With the resonance set almost full up, This one can oscillate at both ends of the frequency range ( I used a 50k dual) could be my layout or pot wiring but I like it as is!  With the resonance full up, well.......it'll oscillate........but not a GOOD oscilllate, an icepick in the ear kind of oscillate.

And its true to modular analog synth!......................In the respect that you'll spend 20 times the amount  on pots and switches than you will on the actual components! :lol:   :lol:  :lol:      :shock:  :x    :cry:  :wink:

WHACK ON!
-matthias

[puretube]

arrrgh - gotta change my lousy "silent PC" situation here, with all those soundclips popping up and I can`t hear `em...

nevertheless: Happy Easter (to whom it may concern)
and enjoy the spring:

[WGTP]

I have to agree with RDV.  This opposable thumb thing is pretty neat.  But spelling will never happen for me.

I remember my son's realization at about 5 that the windows could roll down in a car and that not all garage doors had openers.

Life without micro wave ovens, TV, COMPUTERS.

The Light Speed deal seems like a real problem, but I'm sure getting to the moon did too.  

[David]

The Light Speed deal seems like a real problem, but I'm sure getting to the moon did too.  

Seems like I saw or read something like that not too long ago.  Supposedly, IIRC, when Kennedy committed the US to a manned Moon landing before 1970 that NASA's general reaction was along the lines of "what the heck have you committed us to?!?!?!"

[Peter Snowberg]

About 50 feet inside one of the gates to the Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama where the Saturn V engines were developed, there is a bronze plaque that faces the inside of the base. On the plaque is written, "Waste everything except time. Time is your most valuable commodity."

[Karmasound]

There is an insane amount of things we as man can do here on earth and in space.


But most of these programs will never be funded or some politicians will ruin it. :evil:  

[Joe Kramer]

DO IT!
I just finished A rack mount version of the super tone control, sans vc. I have a populated board for C.A. 's Envelope follower, just need to nestle her in.
I originally wanted to use a single supply so I started laying out the board around a LM324.
(I know, I know,..........."Too noisy"..........But thats what I had laying around)
I scored a power supply at the thrift store that was + - 12v and +5v, so I changed over to dual supply.
Anyway, That filter is pretty fat! With the resonance set almost full up, This one can oscillate at both ends of the frequency range ( I used a 50k dual) could be my layout or pot wiring but I like it as is!  With the resonance full up, well.......it'll oscillate........but not a GOOD oscilllate, an icepick in the ear kind of oscillate.

And its true to modular analog synth!......................In the respect that you'll spend 20 times the amount  on pots and switches than you will on the actual components! :lol:   :lol:  :lol:      :shock:  :x    :cry:  :wink:

WHACK ON!
-matthias

Cool Matthias!  I've always liked that filter for guitar.  You can wring a pretty convincing 'acoustic-simulator" sound from it.  In notch mode, it makes a decent phase-shifter too.

I haven't really sat down to experiment with it yet (the one I have I built some ten years ago), but maybe that icepick feedback could be tamed with some clipping diodes somewhere in the circuit.  Also something tells me the whole thing could be a lot quieter regardless of the op amp if a one-transistor buffer were added to the front end and those 100K feedback resistor were lowered to 10 or 20K.  Something to ponder. . . .

Joe

[guitarhacknoise]

Yeah, that filter is great for guitar, I hav'nt noticed any phase shift out of it yet.
I'll try some of your suggestions when I get it back. I put it in My ladyfriends rack (stop it!)
so I need to go down to her practice space and "repo" it!
thanks!
-matthias

[guitarhacknoise]

O.K. now I hear what yer saying about phase shift.
man, that filter is phat! I was hanging out as her band was practicing, the whole shed was vibrating, I mean you could hear the rustling of the tin roof!
I'm gonna try yer suggestions of the buffer and the lower F.B. resisters. not sure about clipping diodes, got another problem, a wierd fuzzed out "ghost note" mixed in the background, not relly noticable with a full band, but it's there!
Any Ideas?
-matthias