For my next (2nd) project I want to make the Orange Squeezer +++ from the PCB layout posted here not too long ago. The problems I'm running into are doing this cheaply.

I'm not completely clear on the whole process yet, but I know I will need Press-n-Peel transfer paper, which seems expensive. Then theres etching...stuff? lol

How much would it cost to acquire the material I need to make a PCB board, without having ANYTHING?

You need, Etchant. and PNP blue. PNP blue is 2 dollars an A4 sheet from small bear. Etchant only costs a few bucks. I use Ferric chloride, the granules, will last for many many PCB's. You also need a drill, a dremel or somethign similar, some teeny drill bits, I use 1mm diameter ones, surely you will have a drill about somewhere the drill bits cost a few bucks. Think of it as stocking up for this project as well as future projects.....because the stuff you buy will last for a good few.....Surely you have an Iron, copper blank is also only a few bucks for much more than you will need.


To summarise, you need.

1) Etchant, Ferric Chloride granules or pre mixed... Couple o bucks....
2) Copper blank....another couple o bucks.....
3) Drill....should have one.
4) 1mm or similar size drill bits....
5) PnP blue 2 bucks from small bear.
6) an Iron...pity the man who doesnt have one.
7) a little plastic bath for the etching process......



Very minimal set up costs and you too can be etching many PCB boards in no time.....

Bare in mind that layout isnt verified, Although as the author I cant see a reason why it wouldnt work....

As for the Process of actually etchign boards, there is a photo essay over at tonepad that shows you exactly what to do.

I can offer some tips, make sure the clothes iron isnt too hot, or too cold, make sure that the PnP blue transfers to copper blank properly. Keep the copper blanks VERY clean, no fingerprints etc clean them with steel wool if need be prior to applyign PnP blue.......what else........hmmmm....... A good tip for makign sure the etching process is successful is make the etchant hot, it speeds up the etchign process and helps you get perfect results. I put a smaller plastic tub with etchant in it inside a larger plastic tub full of nearly boiling water...to etch a board takes abotu 5 mins this way. Remember to agitate the board to get rid of spent etchant from board......... Check Often...... One other thing, dont get etchant on clothes etc IT WILL NOT COME OFF...I still have a stain on my carpet to prove it....has went green now :cry:

Good Luck!


Paul Nelson

Sweet, great reply! Much more clear now. From what I have found recently I thought the PnP would cost like, $20 and I didn't get around to looking for copper blanks or etchant, but I knew that would cost more. I can't wait for Small Bear to open back up, I'm sure I'll find some better prices there than other places, especially on that PnP.

Thanks for the help!

Oh, and perhaps I am too enthusiastic about building this...I am really a n00b to the electronics field, more of a hobby to me. I'd love to build this and have it work like a charm...but do you think I ought to wait for it to be verified? I could verify it, but this could be a waste of money if I do it wrong.

The circuit has been verified and it works. The only thing is the PCB layout isnt verified. You could verify it if you want. If it doesnt work first time there is always the forum to help you fix it.....


My second project was a Big Muff. The OS+++ is a bit more complex. Perhaps come back to the OS+++ when you have some other builds under your belt, or if you really need a good tweakable Compressor go for this it is probably the simplest. I mean you will know yourself if your chops are up for it.


If the layout is incorrect which is unlikely, I spent a long time checking and rechecking and alot of forum members have checked it, You can always recycle the components if the layout is completely unworkable (even less likely).

If you do find an error in the layout I will correct it and publish an updated version which you can then etch and populate with the components you own. Not losing any money......

Someone needs to verify it. The only reason I havent done it yet is because I am skint.....

I think it will work, and can only guarantee if there are any errors I will correct them.

Go on, take the plunge......

Paul Nelson

PnP Blue? What's that ?Laser print on inkjet photo paper works just as well. It's about $.30 a sheet. You need a laser printer either way - or a print shop will do it, but not on PnP Blue (it can gum up printers, they have $10K printers). If you have a Staples nearby, there's a great source for good photo paper. I also used them for printing before buying a decade-old laser printer for $25. There are several of us here that use the photo paper method.

Be careful with the ferric etchant. That has got to be the most hazardous etchant available and you cannot dispose of it without taking it to a hazmat site. It will eat through your plumbing if you try to pour it down there. Matter of fact, you have to be careful about your choice in containers too. Nasty stuff. It's dark too, so I dunno how people look to see the progress on their boards.

There are newer products. They have a longer shelf-life, they're clear, safe to dispose of, and work as good as the old ferric stuff.
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/prototype.html

Check out the Persulphates. I started using those last year and I'm happy with them. I bought the 1kg size and I'm not 1/2way though it yet. I mix about two tablespoons' worth in with 4 parts of water. You can etch at least two 2"x3" boards, depending on how much copper is removed, with that tiny bit of chemical. It's crystal clear and the removed copper turns bright, transparent blue...easy to see progress.

Here are some good tutorials on etching PCBs without PnP Blue:
http://atlas.spaceports.com/~fishbake/transfer/trans.htm
http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
http://www.5bears.com/pcb.htm
http://galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu/~dokic/electro/pcb/pcb2.htm

As far as compatibility is concerned, it does not matter which etchant you decide to use. For paper, I suggest you follow the recommendations in the tutorials. I use Staples Picture Paper (not the Premium(!)) with great results.

Best wishes. I'm sure we'll see you around here more often.

Mark, Have you ever tried ferric etchant? hazmat site not required.......it eats plumbing IF you through it down there undiluted and unspent, spent diluted ferric chloride is safe to get rid of. the persulfate I have had no experience with. The Photo paper method is more problematic than PnP blue, and harder for the beginner. Cheaper though and easier to get hold of.

whichever method works best for you. I recommend PnP blue. Ferric is what is stocked in most places, even maplins here (our equivelant of ratshack) has it.


Mark, Given your alarmist calls about UV LED's....I will take what you say with a pinch of salt on ferric chloride.  :roll:

There are more ways to skin a cat.

QuoteGiven your alarmist calls about UV LED's....

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I use Ammonium Persulphate, ESR sell it quite cheaply. Clear, quick, easy (quicker than ferric ) I also just invested in a light box (actually an old scanner with two UV bulbs (oh-oh) and a timer) with photosensetive boards - I use Staples clear sheets and get fantastic results. I know its the next step up but well worth it.

Quote from: spudulike

QuoteGiven your alarmist calls about UV LED's....

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

I use Ammonium Persulphate, ESR sell it quite cheaply. Clear, quick, easy (quicker than ferric ) I also just invested in a light box (actually an old scanner with two UV bulbs (oh-oh) and a timer) with photosensetive boards - I use Staples clear sheets and get fantastic results. I know its the next step up but well worth it.

Maybe i should give persulfate a try.....

I have a tonne of ferric though  :twisted:

I dunno about faster, in a hot water bath ferric takes about 5 mins.....

Damitt I cant get a board to etch in under 20 minutes with the ferric pellets I have. Maybe its old/weak ... though I tend to do larger boards, small stuff is perf or vero. Persulphate just works better for me as cack-handed as I am

Quote from: nelsonMark, Have you ever tried ferric etchant? hazmat site not required.

Yes, I eluded to that fact in my post. Check the forum archives about proper disposal of that stuff. You'll find that some of us care about what we're putting in the pipes and ground, ya know.

Quote from: nelsonMark, Given your alarmist calls about UV LED's....I will take what you say with a pinch of salt on ferric chloride.  :roll:

Dude... calling out and discrediting a contributor is disrespectful and uncalled for.

Alarmist? Have you read both threads? I suspect you haven't. What I'm learning from the likes of you is to let uninformed people stay that way, as is apparent by your post here.

Quote from: nelsonThere are more ways to skin a cat.

Yes. That's the point of my post. You don't care for other people having ideas about skinning that cat, do you? We all have our ideas. I respect yours, and every other person's in this forum. But you need to respect that other people have ideas too, and don't take it personally when one doesn't compliment yours as much as you'd like it to. There are new people in this forum, just as you were, and they can learn more from our combined experiences than yours alone.

This is a peaceful forum. Please let it be as such.

Your calls about the LED's were alarmist, yes I have read both posts on the matter.  "Tanning sensitive eyes" "I didnt think anyone used those as indicators"  etc etc

I do respect others opinions, i understand this is a peaceful forum.

I care abotu what I put out into the environment also, and to imply that I dont is offensive. I know that spent and diluted etchant is perfectly safe to dispose of............it DOES NOT require special disposal.....


I appreciate your additions to the subject we were talking about, I didnt take it personally, I thought I would comment on some of your assertions....which i think to be wrong.

despite your superior attitude "educating the uninformed"  I respect your opinions and hope we can put this little disagreement behind us, after all we are all entitled to our own opinions.

Lets get back to the stompboxes.....

H4T: Don't be discouraged by our bickering.

About my suggestions...
As was pointed out, the photo paper method may be harder for a beginner. I didn't own a laser printer and my local print places wouldn't print on it, so I tried photo paper first - PnP Blue later. So... if you have access to a laser printer, PnP Blue might be the best bet. If you don't, and you have trouble finding a place to print on it, don't give up on the idea. You can try the photo paper method as a good alternative.

Ferric, Persulphates... they both etch boards. I like to be informed of a few methods when I ask around, so that's why I suggested Persulphates as another choice for you.

There are a lot of smart folks here. I fall into the lower 1/2% of them on many discussions, so I read a lot. You'll learn a lot here, for sure!

Quote from: markr04
There are a lot of smart folks here. I fall into the lower 1/2% of them on many discussions, so I read a lot. You'll learn a lot here, for sure!

I am the same, I have alot to learn.

No hard feelings, Nelson? I respect you as I do all members of this forum. I apologize for suggesting you don't care for our environment. Frustration got the better of me, I think. I shall work on not being an alarmist in future discussions.

I hope you have a great weekend!

I don't know if the photo-resist method is harder, just different. That's all I've ever used. I have an ink jet printer, and decided I wasn't going to buy another printer just for pedals, so I went with photo resist. Great results too. I use a floresent lamp on a stand. I've never had developing time problems either. I use 3M transparencies that are gloss on one side for laser and slightly matted on the other side for inkjet. They print up nice and sharp. Just make sure you use a heavy piece of glass to weight down the transparency and board. The plexiglass weight they sell with some photo kits doesn't cut it. It's too light to hold the transparancy on the board tightly. Sometimes you may get better results if you place some tracing paper between the transparency and board to prevent light bleeding under the traces. It does have an extra step in removing the developer off the board, but that's simple and quick. For me, it's photo resist,  and MG's Liquid Tin.

Really, it probably comes out the same with either method. With PNP, you can have ironing transfer/removal problems, and with photo resist, you can have development time/light bleed through problems. Most of the time, both methods are trouble free.

Check out both methods, and pick the one that suits your inclination, budget, and work area the best.

Edit: The transparencies are 3M CG6000 Multipurpose @ Staples.

i like the photopaper method.  i dont own a printer and im an extremely poor 17 year old(18 next month!) so i didnt want to pay for printing either.  so i got a good friend of mine to print a sheet for me, i crammed about 15 or so pcbs on one sheet in adobe illustrator and threw in 8 millenium bypass for good measure.  i love how they work, but i used the HP paper and found that it can be quite a bitch to get off sometimes(it still takes and etches well though)

what kinda heat on photopaper?  I think I'll try it :-D.  I have a couple of sheets that came as samples with my printer lol.  And I have "value pack" of PCBs from  Goldmine HOPEFULLY in the mail (the status still says "order recieved: 6/15/05" - IDK if it even shiped yet)

Wow, this thread really exploded pretty fast, lol.

Thanks for raising the photo-paper method. I have access to a very nice ink jet printer, I think; I don't think its a laser at least. Do I simply use the same method as PNP, but use photo-paper instead of PNP?

Also, nelson you mentioned that the OS+++ may be too complex for me, and I think I kind of agree. I'm very new to electronics and such, but I am confidant that with a PCB I can do this project. I built the NPN Boost first try, which surprised the hell out of me, lol.

I figured the PCB method (once the board is made) would actually be easier for me, because it would be simply plug this here, solder, plug here, solder instead of worrying about bending leads and making sure all the leads are soldered well.

From your experience, is a PCB layed out circuit easier to build than one with perfboard? Specifically, this project?

Quote from: spudulikeI use Ammonium Persulphate, ESR sell it quite cheaply. Clear, quick, easy (quicker than ferric

Spud, how do you dispose of it, or rather how are you supposed to dispose of it?!  

How long does it take and does etching time get longer as the solution gets old.  If so, by how much?

I have a light box like yourself and it makes doing boards a breeze, but I hate the etching part as ferric is so variable.

Gez, we have an enviro-disposal place on an industrial estate near me. I use the AP for a couple of boards then put the etchant in a large bottle, take it round and they add some powder to neutralize it and turns it into a thick gel. I definitely dont object to a small charge for it. I believe the neutralizing powder is available to buy. It does get weaker as you use it, but I bought a large tub and you only need a little at a time - I only use the solution for one or two boards. I really should find out about disposal in case I have to do it myself.

The scanner-light-box was easy to put together and makes pcbs SO easy