sustain Punch Creamy Dreamer

[{ antonio }]

I am looking for the sustain punch creamy dreamer schematic does anyone have one?  thanks.  antonio.

[dosmun]

It's a modded Big Muff.

[{ antonio }]

i definately understand that but i wanted to see how it comepares to the big muff.

[{ antonio }]

plus these have become har to find and i thought i might build myself one.

[bass_econo]

I'm not sure that anyone really knows what it was.  The pcb was covered in goop to keep it a secret.  The thing is that the guy hung around here and some other forums and asked lots of questions about modding the muff then ran off and created the creamy dreamer from everyone's advice.  Do a search for it, it has been discussed to death here so...
Michael Allen has some mods up on his site that he says sounds pretty close (I haven't done his mod yet).  
'
Good Luck.

[Mark Hammer]

It's been, what, at least 8 years or something since this "sustain-punch" episode started over on Ampage, and after all that time, I have yet to hear someone/anyone note what it is they liked about this pedal, what was different about it tonewise, and what advantages it *may* have had.  I'm not saying it was a piece of crap.  I'm just saying that I've only ever heard people asking about it and no one ever really *telling* about it in terms that were coherent or informative.

The short-lived "brains" behind it (a local boy, actually) pumped a bunch of us over at Ampage for info on modding Big Muffs, then went and produced the pedal (which, despite any failure to give credit, etc., WAS a well-made pedal in a nice package), where it seemed to live about as long as the band Smashing Pumpkins did.  As I am fond of pointing out, you can't get rich making a single fuzzbox as your product line.

But, all of that particular water under the bridge, I would think there are at least a dozen people here, some of whom are veterans of that episode, that could tell you what to change (since it likely WAS their advice that resulted in the mods), if only we knew what the difference in tone was between a conventional BMP and the CrDmr.  A scope image of the signal at the collector of the second and third transistors would likely be sufficient to figure out the rest, without having to pick goop off of anything.  There is even a remote chance that Mr. Doucette DID contribute something original to the circuit after exchanging notes with people (though some of his other behaviour suggests this to be unlikely), but that too should be identifiable once the audible and visible differences in the sound are identified and made public.

The problem is that the BMP has SO many potential mods that can be made, that it is not really enough to say "It's a modded BMP".  One needs a place to begin.

[Doug_H]

if only we knew what the difference in tone was between a conventional BMP and the CrDmr.  

I get confused by this too. Every time someone brings this up there's usually no discussion about the perceived difference or 'improvement' in tone between a stock BMP and a creamy dreamer. But then again I notice similar patterns when people discuss green/Russian/triangle/rams-head/pink-banana/yomama/etc/blah-blah-blah mods too. Usually there's no discussion of the tone. It's just, "What's the special xxx mod I gotta have it."... :roll:

Jeez, there's like a bazillion different BMP mods/threads in the archive.

Dig in.

Doug

[Ed G.]

Like Doug said, dig in. Jeff Doucette pried and prodded the information from the gurus on the forum at that time. He used others' ideas for sure, but give him credit for at least trying them out, finding which ones worked for him, which ones didn't, and putting it together in a 'recipe' that fit within the parameters of the Big Muff pi circuit framework.

That said, there is an awful lot of information on this circuit here and all over the 'net if someone wanted to search for it. If I wanted to (and eventually, I probably will) I would breadboard the circuit, and try out the different ideas that are out there. Try the different coupling caps. See what sounds best. Try the different transistors. See which ones sound best. Try the different clipping diodes. See which ones sound best. Try the different variations of the BMP tone circuit, and for giggles, download the Duncan tone stack simulator and substitute values, see how they affect response. Chances are, you won't end up with the Creamy Dreamer circuit, but something even better, at least more personalized for what you want to hear. It's not that hard, it takes a little initiative, but that's more or less how I came up with the BSIAB circuit, just by making changes to already-existing sub-circuits, then tweaking and substituting till I started hearing what I wanted to hear.
I think if someone did ever find the schematic for the creamy dreamer, the universal reply would be, "Oh, that's it?" I think it's just an optimized BMP circuit, there's no fairy dust or magic parts in it, it's just a recipe.

[Yun]

There's a guy by the handle:  "Primus" here that has done the sustain punch mod.  

He told me that all it is is:

-Capacitors in parrallel with diode clipping circuit.
-a tone stack mod

That's all he told me.  maybe i'll pry it out of him  :wink:

What i've found to "wake up" this circuit is:

-8.2K changed to 10K
-10K (in diode clipping sections) changed to 15K
-100ohm on the Emiter of the transistors:  Change to 1K trim-pots
-diodes:  change to 3 in series on each side:  1N914's
-Mess with the tone stack.  With the diode mod- it becomes mega beefy- so i usually change the .1uf (or is it.01?) to a .001uf cap.  

The results:

-Super fuzzy, razor like fuzz
-SUPER, MEGA long sustain (i can hold a note and my fingers will get tired before the thing ends it's sustain- i'm being very honest and serious, no joke at all)
-Better use of the tone control
-REALLY loud volume level, and i use a Marshall stack!

There's also a mod that you can take out, or omit, the diode clipping circuit, and the .1, or 1.0 caps .  But when i tried it- it just killed off all sustain.

[Doug_H]

That sounds pretty interesting. One of these days I'll get back to the muff again. I tried it a long time ago and wasn't too impressed. Of course I was using the 1 uf coupling caps and all that. It was nas-t-a-a-a-a-y...  Don't know why I didn't try modding it then. One day I'll try again. I think one of the things that keeps me away from it is it's an awful complex circuit for just a fuzz box. Maybe I should try the op amp version too.

Doug

[Mark Hammer]

Said it before and I'll say it again and again....and again:  double clippers rock.

I've used caps from 470pf to 560pf in parallel with the diodes and noted some tonal differences, though obviously not huge given the limited range of values.

My guess is the diode changes mentioned are likely focussed in the first clipping stage since that would result in the first stage driving the second stage harder.  Conceivably, a pair of red LEDs, or even some 1N4001's might do the trick very nicely too.

I gather the 1k trimpot is for adjusting the gain of the transistor.

[soggybag]

I just breadboarded a Big Muff yesterday. I built mine with a NTE2321 Quad NPN array. It's a 14 pin DIP with four Si NPN transistors in it. This seems to be what was used in the Way Huge Swollen Pickle (I think this used a MAT04 which is longer made the nte chip is listed as a replacement).

I have been trying a few mods myself this morning. One of them which was suggested by someone a few years back was to put trim pots in place of the 8k2 which connect the clipping sections.

I played around with the diodes a little bit. I even tried removing all of the diodes. Which had a very interesting overdrive type sound. I actually liked this sound, I may have to include a switch, though it did not have the sustain for days effect that you get with all of the diodes.

I will have to try an extra diode in series after lunch...

[Mark Hammer]

The BMP was preceded by the Sola Jumbo Tonebender which was essentially the same circuit without diodes in what was to become the first clipping stage.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/pedals/Jumbo.jpg

[Yun]

yeah; youse guys should try it, man.  i came up with it- so PLEASE do not use it for profit purposes.  Unless you wanna send me a check with your profits- which would be pretty groovy :wink:   :lol:  .....

Yes, i've also used 2K in place of the 100 ohm.  i like the 2K trimmers better.  It gets rid of the "palm mutting hairball problem" .  

i also wanna try a couple FET's in series instead of the diodes.  

I've done all kinds o' crazy mods to the Big-Muff.  i know that circuit like the back of my hand (i used to have a company that specialized in modding BMP's).

[soggybag]

You must be joking...

[cd]

What i've found to "wake up" this circuit is:

-8.2K changed to 10K

Decreases amount of signal entering clipping stage.  

-10K (in diode clipping sections) changed to 15K
-100ohm on the Emiter of the transistors:  Change to 1K trim-pots

By 10k I presume you mean the collector resistor.  15k is the most common value on BMPs already.  FYI the gain of each clipping stage is roughly set by: Rc/Re (collector resistor divided by emitter resistor).  Keep the collector resistor the same and raise the emitter resistor = less gain (signal amplified less).

-diodes:  change to 3 in series on each side:  1N914's

Raise clipping threshold - takes larger signal to clip; if combined with lower gain, different clipping characteristic.

-Mess with the tone stack.  With the diode mod- it becomes mega beefy- so i usually change the .1uf (or is it.01?) to a .001uf cap.  

Change .01u to .001u = raise treble cut turnover frequency = lots more high end = no more mid scoop

[Mark Hammer]

Change .01u to .001u = raise treble cut turnover frequency = lots more high end = no more mid scoop

I'll say.  With C= .01uf, the bass side has a lowpass corner frequency of 408hz.  With C = .001uf, that moves to roughly 4080hz, which not only cancels the scoop, but essentially reduces the effectiveness of the tone control for much of its range, although I suppose some would say it makes the tone control subtler.  It will be impossible to get a muted wooly sound with this change, however, and some may actually find value in that tone.  No problem in sticking a .0012uf cap in series with the .01uf cap, though, and installing a SPST toggle to shunt the .0012uf cap for Yun's circuit vs the original.

[aron]

There are people that know what the Creamer Dreamer mod is. I know Jack knows since he took off the goop.

He's posted pictures before so I know he knows.

Double clippers, triple clippers.... it's in the simple mods section and has been for years along with a bunch of schematics that came before that did.

There's all sorts of mods you can make to a Big Muff; very easy. The mod that perhaps has the most impact other than tonal stack changes is listed in the schematics/layout sections thanks to Jc.

[soggybag]

Are you talking about the three images posted in the "Schematics & Layouts" forum?

In thhe first image there is a note that the coupling caps between transistor sections sound better as .1 instead of 1.

It also suggests changing the cap off the end of clipping diodes to a 1 from a .1, I read a posts that suggests these are the AMZ mods.

A post by Viva Analog from a while back suggested using trimmers in place of the 8k2/10k resistors. Said it worked better with single coilds at about 5K.

It seems there are many possibilites and it's all up to taste. I was liking sound without the clippers. It had more an overdrive quality.

Theres an interesting suggestion in this post to set up the first transistor stage like a Si rangmaster. The poster says it sounds good, of course everybody says their mod sounds good.

http://diystompboxes.com/sboxforum/viewtopic.php?t=11243&highlight=creamy+dreamer

[Yun]

CD, on all of the BMP's i've modded (from the russian tanks, to the Reissue NYC's)  None of em had a single 15K resistor in the whole circuit, dude.  

It's probably only found in vintage muffs; but i never opened the Vintage BMP that i had.  Well, except to change the battery....