Just Can't Get PnP Blue To Work For Me?

[97STRATDELUXER]

Even though I have a decent enough laser printer,I still can't get the Pnp Blue to print to my copper?
I'm having much better luck printing to the Avery Glossy Photo paper though,and the last 2 boards I've made have been done using this method...This method works great,but meantime I have 4 sheets of this blue paper that I can't make work? Must be the iron I'm using? 

[Mark Hammer]

First, are you sure you are copying to the proper side?  With photo paper, you copy the pattern to the glossy side, but with PNP, you copy the pattern to the dull blue side.  This may not be the source of the problem in your case, but given how much previous discussion about photo paper has played up the "glossy" aspect, it would be understandable if beginners thought that the shiny side of any all possible transfer media was what such image transfer was all about.

[97STRATDELUXER]

Hello Mark......Nope..I'm printing to the dull side of the PNP and I've read through the great tutorial on the Tonepad site long before ever trying the PNP...My buddy owns a print shop and when he uses his T shirt Iron On machine,the PNP works great...Guess I'll have to get enough circuits to get onto 1 sheet of PNP and then just let my buddy heat them onto the boards for me....If not,the glossy Photo paper works fine for me...

[MartyB]

Sounds like a printer issue.  With toner transfer it's like falling off a log for me.  Do you have access to that type of copier?

[the dude]

I know what the problem is, your not using a ironing board with a flower pattern like tonepads,(just kidding) yeah its probaly a printer issue, just go to kinko's thats what I do, I've heard people saying that kinko's would'nt like it very much to PnP run through their printers, I've not ever once encountered this, most of the people who work there are slackers and its just another "job" for them, if anything you might get a spark of interest from one of the kids that will lead to a sale of a pedal,
anyways go to KINKO's,
JR

[97STRATDELUXER]

Sounds like a printer issue.  With toner transfer it's like falling off a log for me.  Do you have access to that type of copier?

Marty....I am using a laser printer with toner....Glossy paper works great,but Steve's PNP doesn't want to work for me? It's not the PNP's fault....

[d95err]

I tried Press'n Peel, never got it to work at all. A few traces were transferred at best. I gave up and bought a UV lamp instead. Now I get perfect layouts all the time using photo-resist PCBs. The lamp cost me a bit, but it was well worth it.

[Andi]

I couldn't get PnP to work reliably either - it'd take as much as an hour of ironing to get it to stick, and even then I'd have to touch-up with a pen which defeated the point.

[97STRATDELUXER]

I couldn't get PnP to work reliably either - it'd take as much as an hour of ironing to get it to stick, and even then I'd have to touch-up with a pen which defeated the point.

Yep,but the glossy paper with toner transfer is working.At least I can still make the boards using 1 method that works.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

This is just a pure hypothesis, but maybe problems are due to modern printers using so little toner. Remember the very first xeroxes, where you could feel the print with your thumnail? That's what we need..
Fo the PnP to work perfectly, the toner has to adhere well enough to the PCB for the blue backing layer to be pulled off the PnP baacking sheet (that is how it gets the razor sharp edges). If ther eisn't enough toner to get a grab on it, you will likely have trouble.

[PharaohAmps]

I use PnP all the time for one-offs, and photo process for stuff I make a lot of.  I use a Samsung ML-1710 laser printer, and turn the "Toner Saving" setting off when printing to PnP.  I then use a garden-variety Black and Decker iron, set to "Linen" (highest dry heat setting, everything above that uses steam.)

Important tips:

Clean and degrease the board before etching.  If the board isn't the pinky-orange of FRESH copper, you'll probably get a bad transfer.  Degrease with naptha or similar after cleaning.

Use even pressure on the iron, and make sure the PnP doesn't move while ironing.

After you've got the PnP ironed on, run the board and PnP under cold water for about a minute before peeling off the PnP.  If you get a bad transfer, and the black toner is still on the PnP, you can re-align the blue on the board and re-iron it on.

Other tips:

Use clean etchant if you can.  I use ammonium persulphate, because ferric chloride is too messy and gets gunky too fast.  Hit your local thrift store or even Wal-Mart and get an aquarium heater and a small pump.  Stick the pump tubing in the etchant to agitate it, and use the heater to warm the etchant.  Doesn't have to be HOT to work, but warmer is better.  Too warm and you get fumes wafting out into your workshop.

Circuit Specialists has an inexpensive tank + heater + pump combo for under $40.  They also sell ammonium persulfate in powder form, and don't charge exorbitant HAZMAT fees like Kepro used to.  If Steve D. carried something similar, he'd sell a ton of 'em.

http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/4231

The real problem with PnP is undercutting, where etchant eats under the edges of your traces.  Like Paul P. said, the more toner you get on the PnP, the better.  Pick up an old HP LaserJet II for next to nothing and use it for only PnP and you'll be happy.  I needed something with higher than 300dpi, so I got my Samsung. 

Matt Farrow

[Mark Hammer]

It is understandable that many would find themselves ironing away for lengthy periods of time if too conservative with iron heat/temperature.  I fully understand their desire to not get on the wrong side of those who use the same iron for more "intended" purposes on a regular basis.

Note, however, that the temperatures applied in the laser-printer fuser section, to bond the toner with the pnp itself, are quite high, and the the acetate backing of the pnp does NOT melt into goo.  Most household irons would not likely apply heat quite that high to fabrics.

Given how much PCB production some folks have their heart set on doing, and given the price of your average clothes iron these days, I('d recommend springing the money for one in a yard sale, the same way you'd spend $15 for a used (and dedicated) toaster over to bake finishes.  Once you know YOUR iron will neer set surface or HER silk blouse, you can feel free to let it rip.  Make sure the surface you are ironing on does not function like a heat sink, sucking heat away from the board.

[Andi]

Clean and degrease the board before etching.  If the board isn't the pinky-orange of FRESH copper, you'll probably get a bad transfer.  Degrease with naptha or similar after cleaning.

I think that might have been what held me up, to be honest. I also found the whole PnP and etching thing to be very labour intensive - I'm fundamentally lazy and would prefer someone else do that sort of thing for me!

[nelson]

Clean and degrease the board before etching.  If the board isn't the pinky-orange of FRESH copper, you'll probably get a bad transfer.  Degrease with naptha or similar after cleaning.

I think that might have been what held me up, to be honest. I also found the whole PnP and etching thing to be very labour intensive - I'm fundamentally lazy and would prefer someone else do that sort of thing for me!

Its not the actual PnP thats labour intensive, or even the etching, its the DAMN drilling!

I used to PCB every build, now for smaller builds I use strip/veroboard.

Another tip for using PnP is to heat the board with the iron before you place the PnP onto it. Then just sit the iron on the whole sandwich for 2 mins, then actually iron it. I have found this way you do less actual ironing: the Pnp transfers to the copper with only around a minute of ironing.

[D Wagner]

I thought that I'd throw my two cents into the PnP discussion.

I have been getting 100% transfers with the following method.

1.  Print your PCB pattern onto the dull side of the PnP Blue sheet.  Do not touch the sheet surface before or after the transfer.  Finger oils are bad news.

2. Clean your copper clad board with alcohol or acetone.

3. Use 400 or 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper, and wetsand the copper clad board under warm running water until the surface is evenly shiny, and the sanding marks are visible when held against the light.  Sand in a north-south direction and an east-west direction...you can even do some circular sanding if you like.  Be sure not to touch the copper surface during  or after the process.  Hold the board by the edges.  Finger oils are bad news.

4. Sand the edges of the board where the PCB cutter would have left a small ridge.  You actually want to bevel the edges a little bit.  If the copper on the edge has formed a small ridge, the iron will not contact the face of the board completely, resulting in a poor transfer.  This is often overlooked, and is a very common reason for bad transfers.  I learned this lesson the hard way.   

5. Dry the board completely, being careful not to touch the copper surface.  Finger oils are bad news.

6. Heat your iron on the setting just between steam and dry, but do not use any steam.   (We don't keep water in the iron, so I actually go into the steam setting a little bit.)  Lay the copper clad on a flat tile or hardwood surface, and align the PnP sheet.  Lay a sheet of white typing paper over the PCB, and rest the iron on top for a few seconds to set the PnP to the board.  Slowly begin to iron in a circular motion, paying attention to the edges.  You only need to iron for about three or four minutes.  Check the progress by looking for the plastic to be slightly melted looking where the PCB pattern is in contact with copper.

7. Scoop up the copper clad with the sheet of paper (it is wicked hot by now), and place the board under cool running water.  Let the water peel the PnP away from the copper clad to reveal you perfect transfer.

8. Etch the board in warm etchant solution of your choice until the PCB pattern is revealed.  Rinse and pat dry with paper towels.  Watch out...ferric chloride will stain your fingers for several days.

FWIW, I like to drill the board before sanding the PnP off with 400 grit sandpaper under running water.  Leaving the PnP on the board is a great protectant if you are not planning to solder the board immediately.

I hope that there is a little something helpful here to get you better results.

Derek