stomp switches

[jrem]

are all you guys always sold on using 3PDT stomp switches?  If so, then you always put an indicator light on the box? 

[smashinator]

I don't use them.  Indicator lights are for wussies.

[The Tone God]

The switch situation has changed over the past few years causing some significant shifts in the DIY and Boutique methods of manufacturing.

Carling has moved manufacturing to Mexico, I'm sure to become more competitive with overseas, and now the quality is not there therefore there is no justification for their comparatively high cost when compared to overseas. I believe they shot themselves in the foot (or footswitch as the case maybe) with that move.

I still have a mess of Canada made (316 DPDT and 110 SPST). I have never had a failure with those. The Mexican ones just feel manufactured more loosely becoming prone to stress and damage. Maybe its just me. Their cheaper 110 DPDT a.k.a. x-wing were only marginally better then the Alphas but with the location change / quality drop they have lost in the cheap light weight/use switch department.

The Miyama DPDT switches have not been that impressive durability-wise even with mods verse their cost.

Gayton never produced a decent DPDT to my knowledge. Their SPST were good in both price and durability but became almost impossible to get and even when possible require huge order lots which was unfeasible for DIYers.

Then came the 3PDT. Fulltone released the 3PDT footswitch to the public as extension of their part biz. This reduced the complexity in building a pedal as there is no the need for something in the vain of the Mil-bypass system for LED indication although they were expensive.

Alpha then brought out a 3PDT which despite some controversial claims is just the simple and obvious extension of the DPDT with one more pole. Bringing it to market with a price near or better to the other DPDT switches has really taken the chomp out of the DPDT market with it almost becoming the standard.

The Fulltone 3PDT is now no longer sold to the public leaving that market to one manufacture. Also notice the reduction in Mil-bypass posts ?

Alpha brought out the mini-DPDT which some manufactures have starting using (i.e. Dunlop/MXR, Line 6, etc.) especially the PCB mounted version which takes yet another bite out of Carling's last bastion of market dominance. It also brings a new contender to the light weight/use DPDT market being that it is cheap and small in form.

When I started playing with electronic switching, in which later I wrote the "Wicked Switches" article entailing some of my findings, the situation was quite different. It was difficult to get switches and they were expensive. If you wanted a LED indicator you needed more circuitry. It was pretty much the initial motivating factor for me to play with electronic switching systems. The 3PDT has replace that need for many, although I don't use them but for my own reasons.

The 3PDT with its comparatively low cost, reduce wiring complexity feature , and of being readily available (including from Aron with excellent price, shipping, and pre-testing) has become the defacto standard in the DIY / boutique market.

It has been an interesting few years.

Andrew

[cd]

Carling has moved manufacturing to Mexico, I'm sure to become more competitive with overseas, and now the quality is not there therefore there is no justification for their comparatively high cost when compared to overseas. I believe they shot themselves in the foot (or footswitch as the case maybe) with that move.

Old news man, I think they moved manufacturing there in 1998.  The quality drop is not so much about the move, but that the actual tooling used to make the switches *is the same tooling* they've been using for the past 40 years or so.  It's old, it's worn out, but it isn't about to be replaced (more $$$) since the switch, while no good for FX switching, is  perfectly fine for its intended purpose (AC power switching).

[Processaurus]

Thanks for the write up, Andrew.  Your "Wicked Switches" article has been real helpful with some projects I've been doing lately with remote switching, too.

I've had to replace a few of the Carling x-wings in commercial stuff, and 5 or so of their spst and spdt PCB mount switches from fender amp footswitches, I swear they'll break if you give em a hard look.  I've never had one of Aron's 3pdts break, including one in a line selector that I've stomped on ~20-30 times everytime I've practiced for the last 3 years.

I'm kind of curious if the Taiwanese 3pdt is built specifically for small signal switching, and what kind of amperage they're rated for?

[The Tone God]

Old news man, I think they moved manufacturing there in 1998.

The "reflection" was referring roughly to the last ten years. I wasn't intending it to sound like the last year or two.

The quality drop is not so much about the move, but that the actual tooling used to make the switches *is the same tooling* they've been using for the past 40 years or so.  It's old, it's worn out, but it isn't about to be replaced (more $$$) since the switch, while no good for FX switching, is  perfectly fine for its intended purpose (AC power switching).

My understand is its not just the machinery but the lack of expertise down there. They don't have the engineers, or engineers with the understanding, that know how to adjust the equipment to keep things tight. There is only so much adjusting that you can do until thing just wear out though.

Just about all footswitches used for effects are not intended for audio signals but AC loads. In that matter it is true that there is some tolerance but a good bulk of the switches that were being sold from Carling were for audio purposes. For many years the Carling DPDT was the standard switch so there is the issue of when a switch becomes unsuitable for audio levels and when the switch fails completely even for AC loads. They are pushing both limits now.

Thanks for the write up, Andrew.  Your "Wicked Switches" article has been real helpful with some projects I've been doing lately with remote switching, too.

Thanks. I'm glad it helped you out.

I'm kind of curious if the Taiwanese 3pdt is built specifically for small signal switching, and what kind of amperage they're rated for?

I don't believe they are built specifically for small signal switching. It looks like they just added a copy of the pole mechanism to the DPDT which is the same old AC switch and hence why I don't believe the idea was unoriginal. They were just responding to demand. I don't know what the specs are for them. I would love to see a datasheet.

If some manufacture and engineer(s) were to sit down and design a switch with a solid mechanism, optimized for small signals, small body size, tough materials, easy to solder, long lasting, and of course cheap it would make a killing. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Andrew

[jrem]

I think you guys were missing the original content of my post.  This has turned into "high current switching vs low current switching", so if we want to go there, why are folks using 3amp relays for signal switching instead of a chip?  oh, right, tone-mojo.  So what is the dif between a 3amp relay and a 3amp Carling/Miyama switch?  Nada . . .   contacts are contacts, make/break, win/lose, workie/no-workie.

My original question was> do you always use the 3PDT switch?  The 2PDT are avail, so if you're not putting a light in the device, why bother?

Finally, I like the second post . . .     jeesh, if you need a light to determine if an effect is on, maybe you don't need the effect.

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

VERY useful when you have a large collection, and you're scratching your head, trying to figure out why it's making that sound... 

[cd]

If some manufacture and engineer(s) were to sit down and design a switch with a solid mechanism, optimized for small signals, small body size, tough materials, easy to solder, long lasting, and of course cheap it would make a killing. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Where's the market for it though?  FX pedals at best is in the tens of thousands a year.  The audiofool market has no use for it if it doesn't have gold or rhodium in it.  Amps?  Why bother when you can use electronic switching (which has 10x the switching possibilities) with cheapo momentary switches?  I consider it a minor miracle an inexpensive 3PDT is available at all!

[d95err]

Finally, I like the second post . . .     jeesh, if you need a light to determine if an effect is on, maybe you don't need the effect.

There are a thousand reasons why you'd want an indicator light on your effect.

First, if you play live, you need to be able to go from complete silience to a particular sound immediately. It's not very professional to have to make a lot of noice with various different effects just to try to figure out if they are on or off. You want to be able to concentrate on the music, not on trying to remember which effects you used during the last set.

Error checking is another reason. Probably the most common effect problem I know of is that the power is out for some reason. Dead battery, broken wall-wart or a power cable that has slipped out. If the light is on, you know the box has at least some power. Without a light, doing this error checking is much more difficult, and in the worst case requires the use of a multimeter. Not something you would want to do on stage.

[Dirk_Hendrik]

My original question was> do you always use the 3PDT switch?  The 2PDT are avail, so if you're not putting a light in the device, why bother?

Finally, I like the second post . . .     jeesh, if you need a light to determine if an effect is on, maybe you don't need the effect.

Why bother?  basically because, especially in larger quantities, the 3PDT's are cheaper/cost about the same as the 2PDT's. Therefore it's easier to use one type of switches instead of multiple.

Not needing the effect?
- I (and I'm sure many others) like to know if an effect is on or not when I'm not playing......"is my OD on or not?...... 1 bar before the heavy lead part...4,3,2,1........not... solo screwed"
- When using multiple pedals at the same time and something is wrong in the sound it's easier to mark the odd one out by visuals.

[col]

I have settled on the 3PDT type now as the DPDT has recently gone up at Maplins (UK). The smaller one is now £4.50 while the larger one is £5.50. The 3PDT is avaiilable in the UK for that and removes the need for the millenium bypass if you need a light indicator. I have been quoted as much as £9.95 for a DPDT. I have a couple of DPDT switches left that I will use up and I have rescued some from boxes I have built but decided to canibalise for spares as they didn't sound good enough to keep. The 3PDT makes things a lot easier and you know that the indicator light is going to work properly first time!
I didn't use to use the indicator lights but following several gigs where I couldn't hear myself decided it was necessary after all and bought a load of BS170s and retrospectively 'millenium bypassed' all of the units I use regularly. I did have some trouble with a few and they were all fitted with the 3P switches.
Has anyone a solution to using LEDs outside? When the sun is shining on an LED you can't tell if it's on or off.

[jrem]

Has anyone a solution to using LEDs outside? When the sun is shining on an LED you can't tell if it's on or off.

I hate to be a smart ass and I'm not trolling or looking to start a flame war, but the short answer is "listen".

I've used an ADA midi footpedal for years, and have played many outdoor gigs, some under a red and white tent, and guess what?  During the first set it would still be daylight (it doesn't get dark here in June/July until almost 10pm) and the numbers are totally washed out, you literally can't tell what channel you're on.  So it's critical to hear yourself, as well as everyone else, else you're just lost in the mix anyways. 

Now I'm not saying no one ever needs indicators, but I've had similar conversations with freinds and kin about "rat into a tube screamer into a high gain Laney 50watt, like buttah!"  and my stance is "gimme a tele, a bassman, a 4x12, and a cord".  So I guess if you're running a super high gain ultra-phlesh into a fuzz-master into a marshnall jcm49000, lights might be necessary, but I doubt anyone will know the difference in tone exept the user (don't worry, I won't start a thread about carbon comp vs carbon film vs metal film, eh heh heh).

On the other side, it sounds like the cost difference between the 2pole and 3pole switches might not be enough to worry about, so unless I fall on a bunch of 2PDT at a great rate it's easier just to keep the designs the same and keep one part on hand.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Has anyone a solution to using LEDs outside? When the sun is shining on an LED you can't tell if it's on or off.

I hate to be a smart ass and I'm not trolling or looking to start a flame war, but the short answer is "listen".

As I say every six months, use a FlAsHiNg light, it's much much easier to see. I just built a box with a 7555 low duty cycle led (those ready made flashers take about 8mA! yikes!!). But if I wanted to be a smart ass, I'd say use an audible warning (like a truck reverser)

As for anyone building a 'perfect' 3pole switch.. perhaps a system where a magnet is pushed in & out of place on alternate stomps, and controls a bunch of audio grade reed switches. Then you could use it under water...

[Peter Snowberg]

Like others, I do like to know when an effect is on or off before playing.... but, unlike others, I don't have to worry about screwing up a solo or a live performance.

I like where you're going with the reed switches Paul. 

[col]

Quote from JRem, November 8
"I hate to be a smart ass and I'm not trolling or looking to start a flame war, but the short answer is "listen"."

In an ideal world that would be the best solution I agree and usually it works. Unfortunately some of the places we play have a bad PA and even worse backline. There simply isn't time to switch amps and we are often told that everything will be there, just bring guitars and drum breakables. I have played a couple of gigs recently by watching the bass player as the only thing I could hear were my vocals and the snare drum. Yes, it is poor and in an ideal world it wouldn't happen but in reality it does. Usually the people at the front say the sound is right so the PA engineer must be doing his job right at the front, he probably just isn't interested in what's going on on the stage.
I enjoy playing at the venues we play at and wouldn't want to stop due to the poor equipment that is sometimes available. It also enables the whole band to travel in 1 car keeping costs down and allowing us to play for very little at benefit gigs. We played a venue a short while ago at an all dayer where there was a very tight schedule, we played with my guitar going through a bass amp as it was the only spare amp available. One band towards the end of the night insisted on using tall of their own equipment, took 25 minutes to set up, the same to pack up and left the last band with 10 minutes.
I have managed without indicators in the past but now I have them they are a valuable addition to my FX line. I still use some without but they are usually the more extreme distortions when you DEFINATELY know they are on.
Paul,
Flashing LEDs! I will have to try that. Does the 7555 look like a standard LED or is it a 7555 chip circuit? The only flashing LEDs I have seen are 12V 5mm units.

Col

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Flashing LEDs! I will have to try that. Does the 7555 look like a standard LED or is it a 7555 chip circuit? The only flashing LEDs I have seen are 12V 5mm units.Col

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough there, I meant that I used a 7555 cmos timer to flash a led (briefly) a couple of times a second. Used the circuit here:
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/555timer.htm (the one down the page wiht the diode to give an assymetric on/off time).
I'll never be making one of those magnet & reed relay switches, unless it becomes trendy for the hi-end audiophools to stomp their gear on & off!

[Andi]

if I wanted to be a smart ass, I'd say use an audible warning (like a truck reverser)

Or maybe a vibration unit like a mobile phone. Touch your foot to the pedal; if it's vibrating then it's on.