Virtues of Obtaining a Patent - Some Questions for The Experts

[puretube]

so at least you have to take the neccessary precautions to be able to defend...

[Connoisseur of Distortion]

my guess for the best way to protect your design and still sell it is to make it as untraceable as possible.

get some of those tiny surface mount parts, preferably from a source that doesn't label their stocks, and make it all on a board that has the jacks, pots, and maybe stompswitch mounted on it. goop heavily.

put fake traces all over the place. make ICs look like they operate one way, but actually have them operating another (the "it's just an opamp" trick would probably work great).

mess with your components (maybe put things inside your pots?) to make the apparent design misleading.

and, some less realistic ideas...

put in a few spaces that need to be connected, and connect them with a substance that could be destroyed by a solvent... so reverse engineers can't do it so easily. conductive epoxy of some form?

maybe you could get some custom ICs?? that would be an absolute RE killer.

possibly you could make it so the enclosure is built in a protective way around the board? hammond probably isn't the way, here...

maybe a 4 layer board (you know, with the ground and voltage hookups) could be used to sneak a trace or two...


i will admit i have no idea about these suggestions. i have never tried to hide a design before, but these seem like reasonable ways to throw off any tracers.

[A.S.P.]

never trust anybody on the web...
just PM me your idea.

[The Tone God]

a sociological problem... ( o tempora - o mores )

Well it is more complex then even that but that is a discussion beyond the scope of both the OP and this forum.

One-offs are not worth the patent-hassle - don`t start messing with the idea,
unless you`re sure it`ll provide your first million...

Agreed.

time works for the applicant: if the procedure might take 5 or 7 years,
you get protection from the day you filed...

Correct but only if you patent is granted in the end otherwise you may have issues later on especially if you throw your "patent pending" weight around in the mean time.

so the "public" can see if you`re for real an inventor, or knock your knuckles...

True but it only really applies if that sort of thing bothers oneself. Take a look at some of the new patents going on especially in the software world. There wouldn't just be "knocked knuckles" but missing limbs.

it`s on the patent lawyer - you can help him save money for yourself,
by monitoring the market (a.o. by visiting H-C and this forum)

Actually ultimately it is on you. The lawyer is just another employee at that point. The lawyer cannot be blamed for anything unless they faulted procedure. I would rather spend my time doing R&D of new products then looking around to see if anyone is stealing my ideas. Thats just me though.

it`s all in the claims - don`t leave it to your lawyer alone, when postulating them...

Agreed on the same grounds that I would not leave my lawyer to monitor for infringement. See above.

patents can be granted in over 170 countries... (ok, ok, at ~ 100 times the costs...)

Correct but unreasonable as pointed out and still does not offer complete protection as was the point I was making.

never accept it! stand up for your right!
Not releasing/licensing your product = zero result (except personal private fun...)

You have and should accept it. You do not have a "right" to IP protection, although you would in a perfect world, but instead you have a privilege that is granted to you.

Not releasing/licensing your product != zero result. It all depends on one's goals and values. Money isn't everything.

Revenging may be a "sport" to some, a "workout" or "exercise" for others,
but to me it does not`t give anyone the rights to exploit my thinkings...

As I prefaced my statement with "My thinking..." this applies to myself and once again it depends on one's values

my guess for the best way to protect your design and still sell it is to make it as untraceable as possible.

If you put a product out and attempt to protect it the best you can hope for is that you make it too difficult for them. As I said before if someone really wants to reverse engineer you stuff they will. Nothing you can do will stop them.

Andrew

[Paul Marossy]

If you put a product out and attempt to protect it the best you can hope for is that you make it too difficult for them. As I said before if someone really wants to reverse engineer you stuff they will. Nothing you can do will stop them.

Yeah, that is generally true. But... some pedals, like the Klon Centaur, still remain to be undone due to thick epoxied circuitboards (AFAIK)

[The Tone God]

Yeah, that is generally true. But... some pedals, like the Klon Centaur, still remain to be undone due to thick epoxied circuitboards (AFAIK)

Once again it is the difficulty/cost the prevents most from reversing the Klon but thats not say it hasn't already been done.

Andrew

[R.G.]

make it as untraceable as possible

Read Dirty Tricks 101 at GEO. Bear in mind that there are others I did not put there. And others I have not thought of. But nothing is proof against a determined reverse engineering effort.

As I said before if someone really wants to reverse engineer you stuff they will. Nothing you can do will stop them.

Very true. As we say here in Texas, "Never a horse that couldn't be rode, never a rider that couldn't be throwed."

It's unwise to bet that you'll always be anything-ier, including smarter, than everyone forever.

thats not say it hasn't already been done

I think it's already been done. Never rely on just goop of any kind to protect an idea.

Finally, it's really a bad idea to hide part of a design from a really smart guy. He may copy down part of it, but then bridge the gaps with what he thinks you did, but in reality is both novel and better than what he'd have found in an open design.

The only really certain way to win this game is to outrun the competition. While they're reverse engineering the last generation, you're bringing the next generation to market.

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Let me say this again. I don't think it sunk in.
You cannot own anything that you cannot defend in some way. Think about it.

R.G. is right. As Don Lancaster says, all a patent is, is a ticket entitling you to a fight. And I would like to point out, that for us guys, we're going to be fighting well out of our class. I hadn't realised that you have to pay each year to keep a patent alive! And pay more than I clear from my FX business. Simply getting a patent is dead easy, now the governments don't bother checking whether they have any validity (it's all left up to the lawyers now, you don't know if your patent is likely to stand up until the court case). For stompboxes, I'm sure it's better to concentrate on getting a good name & building up a loyal customer base.

[jrem]

Let me say this again. I don't think it sunk in.
You cannot own anything that you cannot defend in some way. Think about it.

R.G. is right. As Don Lancaster says, all a patent is, is a ticket entitling you to a fight.<snip>

well, the business I'm in, and the reason my owners sunk $3k+ into an idea of mine (sorry for the horn blowing, but hey, if I don't who will? http://jrem.webhop.org/patent.php) is that there are only a few players, and a leg up by a competitor can keep you out of the market for years.

So if there is a technology that can get written up, we do it.  But it is also so specific, that unless you're working with it you're not going to "see" the potential in the idea.  So we (um, they) pantented it.

Another thing, though, it's not "monopolistic competition" like I would think pedals are (except for the ones that do it right).  There is a high cost of entry and people don't just jump into the business.  Not that there isn't any competition . . .     hence the patent.  Or maybe I just like putting cool controls on some stuff . . .

[jrem]

oh, (and damn, where's the edit key?) Rembrants in the Attic . . .  thanks to who posted that, I ordered it from Amazon.com today.

[H S]

Let me say this again. I don't think it sunk in.
You cannot own anything that you cannot defend in some way. Think about it.

R.G. is right. As Don Lancaster says, all a patent is, is a ticket entitling you to a fight.

Absolutely, but sometimes the other guy may be more scared of the fight than you.  Defendants generally can't get lawyers to represent them on contingency.  Their financing may run for the door; even before you lift a finger, merely because their due diligence uncovers your patent.  Nobody wants to buy a lawsuit.

I hadn't realised that you have to pay each year to keep a patent alive! And pay more than I clear from my FX business. Simply getting a patent is dead easy, now the governments don't bother checking whether they have any validity (it's all left up to the lawyers now, you don't know if your patent is likely to stand up until the court case).

Maintenance fees are lower and less frequent in the U.S. than in most countries.  If you can write your own patent, you can get a patent on file for as little as $500.  Patent Offices do examine for validity--lately they've been tightening up, and some say it was overdue.  Regardless, you can get in trouble if you file without at least a good faith belief that you have a real invention.

For stompboxes, I'm sure it's better to concentrate on getting a good name & building up a loyal customer base.

I agree.

Besides, people who can think and do usually respect what others think and do, and they'd rather spend their time thinking and doing their own thing.  I'd bet a lot of would-be copyists can't quite get off the couch to get started.    Except Behringer.   

[Paul Marossy]

Simply getting a patent is dead easy, now the governments don't bother checking whether they have any validity (it's all left up to the lawyers now, you don't know if your patent is likely to stand up until the court case). For stompboxes, I'm sure it's better to concentrate on getting a good name & building up a loyal customer base.

Why hire a lawyer then?! I could write a patent submission document with some help from a couple of friends in the legal biz. I agree, though, it's best to get a good name and a loyal customer base. The only reason a patent comes to mind is for some kind of protection from the big corporations, but they would have far deeper pockets than I. I certainly wouldn't be doing it to be exclusive.

The only really certain way to win this game is to outrun the competition. While they're reverse engineering the last generation, you're bringing the next generation to market.

Good point.

Once again it is the difficulty/cost the prevents most from reversing the Klon but thats not say it hasn't already been done.

Yeah, probably so. I have schematics of various boutique stompbox builders that I have verified to be correct (or at least they work), but I keep them under wraps out of respect for the designers (and also to keep out of hot water!) 

[Paul Perry (Frostwave)]

Finally, it's really a bad idea to hide part of a design from a really smart guy. He may copy down part of it, but then bridge the gaps with what he thinks you did, but in reality is both novel and better than what he'd have found in an open design.

There was an amusing case of this in the early analog synth days, when one company put out completely exaggerated specs for a filter, and the opposition then busted their buns trying to exceed it.. only to find they already had!
Similarly, during WW2, the British scientific intelligence guys said it was 'impossible' for a rocket to reach London... until someone mentioned liquid fuel... upon which they all said "well of course it can, if it uses liquid fuel".

[Paul Marossy]

during WW2, the British scientific intelligence guys said it was 'impossible' for a rocket to reach London... until someone mentioned liquid fuel... upon which they all said "well of course it can, if it uses liquid fuel".

Hah! Never say never... 

[mojotron]

..You cannot own anything that you cannot defend in some way. Think about it.

Now, that there's a Texan talkin'... 

[petemoore]

  It seems to be simply a case of he who has the most money "wins"...
  It's like poker, with fixed ante, open limit, your stack of chips hidden behind the opponents massive stack...
  It's like many things in the modern Corporate Governmented world...deeds, property rights and stuff like that can become totally moot, when big money says "Hey Look over here" Judges, Courts...etc. 'eyes' become blind to 'right and wrong'...and keenly focused on 'what makes the most money here for 'us''.
  What were bought as 'Iron Clad Deeds', not subject to review unless the owner decides to turn into something twisted and worthless...unless you have the ante's to wear them down at the table with.
  Absorbing properties is common these days, countries...governments...N/P...as long as you have a big pile of green or big guns, anything goes....and I add
  "$<=" .

[Paul Marossy]

Funny, I've told/shown a few people at the office about my creation and they all ask "are you going to get that thing patented?". Then I have to explain how it's not worth it, etc. The interesting thing is how the word "patent" comes out of people's mouth almost immediately.