The most sustain..?

[Wighty]

Hello all,

I was just wondering if it was possible to get large amounts of clean[ish] sustain from a booster of sorts?

What other pedals are good for clean sustain? Ive heard compressors can be quite useful...

Thanks in advance.

[R.G.]

I was just wondering if it was possible to get large amounts of clean[ish] sustain from a booster of sorts?

It depends on what you mean by "sustain". If you mean "I can hear the note longer", then yes, you can. If you mean "I can hear the note at a consistent level and tone for longer" then no, you can't.

A note from your guitar has a distinct shape. It makes a sharp peak when you first pluck it, then dies away at a certain rate depending on the dampening of the guitar body, nut, bridge, air around it, etc. If you just use a booster (that is, an amplifier) to make the signal uniformly bigger, then the note will at some point start distorting because the booster has reached its linear output limits. The apparent decay of the note will be unaffected, although the fade-out of the note will take longer because the previously too-soft-to-hear parts will be raised to audibility.

If you include a guitar amplifier in this mess and use the booster to raise the overall gain of the path from guitar to booster to amp to speaker and back to guitar acoustically, then  yes, you can get feedback to help with a sustaining sound. This happens at a quite-high audio level in most cases though.

What other pedals are good for clean sustain?

Compressor. A compressor boosts the quiet parts of the note and quietens the loud parts to make the note appear to be a constant level. However, a compressor cannot make sound that's not there appear, so the note ends when it fades away at the guitar and doesn't really last any longer. It appears to though.

There are a few other options along the lines of sustainer drivers. These, like acoustic feedback, add energy back into the vibrating string in a way that keeps it vibrating. There are magnetic string drivers that look like pickups, and mechanical drivers that mount to the head and vibrate the head to put energy back into the strings.

You've talked about clean sustain. Distortions also introduce apparent sustain by amplifying the signal up and clipping it off so that it remains at a fairly even level throughout the note. But it's not sustain in the way I think you mean.

[Doug_H]

The Big Muff PI gives the best clean sustain.

At least that was the original intention...

Doug

[petemoore]

  The "Rattling' or peaks that a distortion sound makes, may push the string at a certain 'sympathetic vibration' interval, which imparts a greater 'swing on the string, pushing it 'just when' a bit harder...this is why it's easier to get feedback @ low volume with a Fuzz.
  You want clean feedback.
  That means sufficient transfer of wave force through wood/air/cone/string/speaker to cause symapthetic vibration to occur and sustain itself, as a lone, specific pitch, which the string 'let's happen' [the string disallows occurances of sympathetic vibrations that are not chosen by you and the string]...volume'll do it.
  Connecting the wood of your guitar headstock to the cabinet'll do it. hold it on there at angles and notice that the feedback gets going a a certain volume.
  [er...will do it @ a comparitively low volume]
  Turning your guitar into a speaker cabinet'll do it, connecting a driver of sufficient drive to power the strings through the headstock or body'll do it.
  There are a number of techniques you can use to drive the string to surpass the damping...heavier metal nut and bridge will allow the guitar string, unaided by any drive other than the initial attack, to 'naturally' sustain longer, the body and neckwoods influence this, how close the pickups are to the string [the magnets impart a damping factor, which reduces 'un-aided' string sustain]...
  Certain frequencies may enhance sustain, messin' with an EQ may provide some' benefit, or at least you can check out what it does for yore.
  Basically speaking with a solid body guitar/infinite sustain...yer talkin' L O U D, a semi hollow body, or even an accoustic [however with an accoustic, the string can easily not be the 'thing' in control of frequency, especiall Bassy frequencies will tend to take over because the body is like...taking over control compared to the teeny little string...accoustic guitar body feedback...EZ to get that unwanted bass feedback]...so...using the body of a guitar as a wave reciever, picking up energies from the speaker to air transfer, and illiciting their forces to a greater degree to the string...a balance between these is what'll tend to get you into cleaner feedback, yet pitch controlled mostly by the string...say ES335 into Super Reverb...should get fairly Spankin' feedback...a Twin's cleaner yet. 
  Getting a wide frequency band that sets itself off into infinite feedback might be tricky, often times the high notes can't overcome the damping of one of the
'loop-route' participants...String>pickup>Volume'n Tone Controls>Whatever../EQ>Amp/settings>Speaker{s> Air> Wood [body, head and neck] > Metal {bridge and nut} >String
  When using Air, position and distance from the amp alter phase points...is the string on it's way 'back' when it's recieving a 'foreward' influence Via Feedback?...and of course the closer to the amp, the greater amount of radiating energy from the amp will hit' the surfaces of the guitar recieving them, and they will be having greater force [moving the air itself....more of it increases it's damping factor].

[Processaurus]

Heres a weird idea:  When recording, split your guitar signal and run one version squeaky clean to your recorder, and run the other to a half stack right in front of you with the gain cranked up so that it feeds back acoustically.  This and Pete's ideas are sure to get the neighbors calling up to talk about your sustain .

Pete, I wonder if phase makes a difference with acoustical feedback from a loud amp, because when using my dyna comp (which flips the phase) loud, it seems like it'll kind of choke certain acoustic feedback.  Curious.

[petemoore]

  It's like re-inforcing.
  When on a swing set [the swinging being analgous mostly to a strings 'swing'] and you kick your leg out when your all the way back, this is how you overcome the natural tendancy for the swing to reduce because of damping [air and chain resistance in the case of the swing, wood, stainless steel and metal in the case of an electric guitar], and actually swing higher. If you pull your legs back when your all the way back on the swing, [like..out of phase] you tend to cancel some of the energy and slow/reduce the swing travel and speed.
  I would imagine the same is true with guitar, and standing say...8' in front of the amp...well the phase difference @ a given frequency could be calculated, anyway if you're the 'right distance away from the amp [and of course closer makes a bigger amount of difference in How Much the amp pushes the string...anyway if the vibration is sympathetic you would get 'push' when the string is about to or into it's 'push' [pick a direction] half of it's swing, if the vibration is counter-sympathetic or 'pulling' the string at or near the push half of it's swing...there would be a reduction or damping of the vibration...countering the string trying to swing.
  I think if the amp is loud enough it'll overcome wherever 'you' are starting in the phase of the frequency and force the string to fall into sympathy with it...so quickly that....well I've had amp so 'sustainey' all I had to do was either touch the string or just un-palm-mute it to 'let it get going' all on it's own.
  Now that I've typed all this I'm waiting for 'it ain't so' retorts...ok...retort..!!!
  Could be I'm wayy off base, it seems electrics just sustain or not, as long as the volume, tone' and closeness to the amp is 'right'.
 

[RaceDriver205]

This and Pete's ideas are sure to get the neighbors calling up to talk about your sustain

LOL!

Someone posted a device a while ago called the "sustainer", which had a separate pickup (a guess you could call it a "put-back") which drove the strings instead of sensed them. The idea was that the guitars signal was sent back into the strings with this "put-back". I thought of a similiar idea a long while back, but with a speaker strapped to the guitar body - so as to vibrate the body and not the strings directly.

[Mark Hammer]

1) Important to distinguish between actual sustain and the *illusion* of sustain.  Copmpressors turn the volume down quickly and then gradually bring it up to create the illusion of sustain by maintaining a relatively constant volume.  There is no actual sustain added.  Distortion/clipping devices set a maximum ceiling on the output level.  Because the hard-pucked string, aided by lots of boost in the pedal,  hits that ceiling easily and doesn't fall below it for a while, there is the illusion created that the note lasts a long time.  Again, no sustain is added, but the impression of sustain is created by maintaning a relatively constant volume.

2) ANY device that creates the illusion of sustain will provide more of that illusion if the instrument's actual characteristics provide more sustain to start with.  So a big body jazz guitar with a wooden floating bridge and flatwound strings will not provide nearly as much "sustain" through any gadget as will a nice set-neck solid-body.

3) Anything that makes the guitar body "shake" can maintain the vibration of the strings a little longer and produce longer sustain of a note, whether artificially or not.  So, plug into any gadget you want and stand 3 feet away from a 9v battery practice amp with a 3" speaker and you will get less "sustain" than you will if you plug into a booster->compressor->fuzz into a big amp with big speakers, cranked, and stand 2feet away from the speakers.

[redeffect]

This and Pete's ideas are sure to get the neighbors calling up to talk about your sustain

LOL!

Someone posted a device a while ago called the "sustainer", which had a separate pickup (a guess you could call it a "put-back") which drove the strings instead of sensed them. The idea was that the guitars signal was sent back into the strings with this "put-back". I thought of a similiar idea a long while back, but with a speaker strapped to the guitar body - so as to vibrate the body and not the strings directly.

The pickup thing was a feature on Washburn guitars a while back. I first saw the speaker thing on a Tele back in '75. It was called "The Sustainer" (how orignal...). A gentleman named Barry Group designed this and was trying to market it. No takers. Real fun to play though! 

[Quackzed]

that guitar split  clean->direct to recorder, loud amp to get acoustic feedback is brilliant!!! i'm gonna have to try that!! you get natural acoustic feedback on your recording without the distortion??!!! thats got to sound great!! i can deffinately see the correlation between real feedback and 'sustainers'. sustainers  use magnetic waves instead of sound waves??! either way, i'm gonna go wake up the nieghbors!!   

[petemoore]

  Pan down and see how long this is, this attempt to type semi-lucidly about 'sustain'....
  It could be looked at as...Overcoming Lack of Sustain.
  As has just been pointed out, there are "Dampening Forces", and there is the power of the amp and speaker [how they're run and with what etc...] which can produce forces which can 'Out-Do' the dampening forces...or Overcome their power to stop the sustain.
  Anything about the non-electrocized guitar that is vibrated by the strings can have Dampening forces, including the strings themselves.
  'Sensativity and Response' [or 'Good' IMO] speakers may exhibit less damping also at certain frequencies...[or all of them].
  The speakers and the amp are part of the 'Overcoming the Damping' in the 'sustain equation', even 'focusing' which frequencies are...
  Accentuated [which freq's are allowed be amplified, and how much]
  Distorted [which, and how much of certain freq's are allowed into a Dirtbox]
  ""Bass may or may not be easily 'taken into' a sustain loop, same with very high Freq's, Low mids to high mids is 'where' a guitar lives as far as frequencies the string tends to be most responsive 'to'.
  So the long list includes mostly everything...
  String [type, thickness, weight, freshness..
  Nut's mass [Brass nut?
  Bridge mass [wood? Brass? Metal...rollers or...
  Everything [about all the guitar woods..even Fret Mass
  Pickups [do they slightly distort the amp?, What freq's do they accentuate?
  Everything in the chain including cable
  All these items can be chosen, or 'made to'...lessen their natural tendancy to defeat sustain [or 'dampen'], notice I didn't use the word 'sustain'.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Under the line is 'Power Sustain', for this you'll need *Some type of speakers, and amp. *
  Look for reviews of speakers that often contain words like 'singing', like Jensen or Celestion 'old style' speakers, the response/sensativity of these types seemed to do better than some of the 'Power Handling', 'Heavy Duty' types I've tried. [<$, 100w 'Cheepies'].
  "Anything can do it", if the volume is loud enough so that the frequencies which 're-inforce' the cycle are enough stronger than the dampening forces [frequencies of a 'far away band' ie low freq's can 'mess with' and possibly dampen HF's]...confused enough?
  I wish I could "Addendum' to advertisements...
  When I read 'Guitar Body that SUStains", I would write: "No it doesn't, but it might Dampen Less".
  No guitar sustains indefinitely, for that you'll need power to overcome what is dampening a 'Feedback Loop'...otherwise 'sustain' = how long the string continues to vibrate = the strings kinetic energy - all the things mentioned as 'damping' [not related to 'power']. [this includes magnet strength of PU and its/thier proximity to strings].
  Feedback 'loop'...is by definition a 'Full Circle', we'll start at the string>PU>Amp>Speaker>Air>String. [I 'forgot' wood for a second].
  The 'amplified air' has high pressure, and low pressure 'waves' traveling at the speed of sound 'through' the air...like waves in the sea, the air mass doesn't 'move' [there is no wind] but 'shock waves' travel through it, when these are aligned with, and cause a sympathetic vibration force on the string, powering it 'foreward' when it is about to or is going foreward...you 'get' sustain...or...as I like to say it [since so many adverts use "Sustains' where they could use 'Dampens less'] Overcoming the dampening forces so the note plays indefinitely.
  Amplification of Distorted wave may 'spike a peak' at just the right timing to allow 'sustain' at lower volumes, like little striking 'hammer's' on the string, the staccato-ey 'switching' of the diodes may cause the speaker to 'click' [for lack of terminology here], or jump for very short periods of time, causing higher amplitude wave pressure transients to push the air and string at exactly the moment the string is 'in position and motion direction' to  *best to being pushed in that direction [*for sustain purposes].
  Running out of phase...lol...OT [not]...LOL.