One more thread on compensation

[aron]

Hey guys, sorry for one more thread on this whole issue but here goes.

Part of the problem happening right now is centered around an issue of compensation.

Here is an example:

UserA is asking for help, he co-develops a circuit with UserB. They exchange information and according to UserB he does most of the designing. Whatever the real portion of work contributed, UserA free admits that the design was co-developed.

UserA decides that he wants to sell the design. He does not ask UserB about it, nor does he consider it important because when UserB was helping, he did not mention anything about any commercial interests. After all UserB was just helping out of the goodness of his heart.

Well, UserB IS a little upset that the co-developed circuit is being sold. He asks for compensation - a few bucks a pedal - then maybe give something to charity, then even down to $25 or lower for unlimited use.

UserA says he did nothing wrong since this stuff is not complicated anyway. He's done with the whole issue and doesn't want to talk about it. Besides many people are PM'ing him telling him he did nothing wrong.

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Let me just say something on this. Hey guys, if someone co-develops something with you, man, please consider the feelings of the person you have worked with. I can't believe that <$25 is not worth the peace that could arise from the unauthorized use of a co-developed product. Just pay the damn money - it's less than a good lunch for goodness sake.

When someone helps you out - like co-developing something - you need to ask before you decide to sell the design. It just makes sense.

The fact that this simple thought did not cross UserA's mind bothers me a lot.

I'd like to know if anyone thinks that UserA did the right thing and is doing the right thing by ignoring any repeated contact with UserB. I'd like to know if anyone thinks that $25 or lower is worth paying to have peace exist. This issue has polarized a number of people in the forum.

[slacker]

If the thing was genuinely co-developed rather than User B just offering a little help to User A then yeah I'd agree that it's not unreasonable for User B to ask for some sort of cut of the action if user A then decides to sell it.
I think the more important point is that it's a private matter between Users A and B and it's got bugger all to do with the forum. Any grievances should have been sorted out between them, preferably off line.

By the way I've got absolutely no idea if this was a real incident or who it involved.

[MartyMart]

Agreed 100% aron !
If I ever go commercial with something like the "Tornado" there's at least two people who
would be down for a share ..... they know who they are 

..... it's not very likely though !!

[aron]

>I think the more important point is that it's a private matter between Users A and B and it's got bugger all to do with the forum. Any grievances should have been sorted out between them, preferably off line.

That's right however because of UserA (and others like him), several valued people have left the forum. I miss them being here.

[slacker]

Yeah it's sad if things couldn't be sorted out and people felt they had to leave because of the actions of a few idiots. It does seem that possibly the whole unpleasant business is making most people take a good hard look at a few things so hopefully some good will come of it.

Not to sound like an old hippy but I guess we all need to learn to live with other people a bit more and keep things in perspective. I remember being involved in a fairly unpleasant thread in the lounge a while ago, that made me see someone in a very different light. Didn't feel the urge to leave or have a public flogging though.

[Fuzzy-Train]

If that's what sparked this whole feud, and many arguements after that than they need to get over it.... hell we all do. Something as trivial as this should not have escaladed to the almost daily arguements that spawn here.

There was no agreed upon contract or leagally binding agreement, morally userA should compensate userB, but considering how deplorable userB's attitude and actions were (I saw the whole thing go down on the other forum) I don't think he should be compensated. There are good and bad ways to ask for compensation, you don't e-mail/PM someone with a bad attitude and start demanding things, and you don't start posting rude comments in the persons thread for selling his/her FX  pedals.

I really don't see the problem though... why doesn't userB just sell the product as well. If it was a colaboration than userB should be allowed to do so.

Get over it and move on people! We gotta stop these threads first though, because there is no solution. We're just fueling the fire and making more and more people leave because of it....

[Pushtone]

This is exactly what I've been thinking but no posting. Thanks Aron.
Compensation, it's a business expense to enter the free market.


But just for future reference to new members...

What would have been the coolest thing to do would to have asked to sell a few circuits
as a due course to respecting the IP of others who might share it with you (us).

It never hurts to ask.

I could, for example, email Jack and ask if I could build one-hundred Mini-boosters and sell them on my website.
I would expect he would say no. Then I would move on.

Some designer with an interesting circuit will licenses it to me and then
I can scratch that itch to sell some pedals I made in my basement
without any costs from overhead/insurance/employees/rent/etc.

Oh,  and I would report every last cent on my tax return. 




Q:  Am I wrong to say that some of the individual involved in circuit stealing are not even members here?




And,  you know, (fatherly advice ahead.. beware)

If a member did want to enter the market and sell pedals
the smartest thing to do would be to out-source everything
and do nothing but spend your time marketing and selling.

Don't even get involved with manufacturing or powder coating.
You want to be able to order 500 units complete, packed in individual little white cardboard shipping boxes,
shipped straight to your wearhouse(basement) and start filling orders.

Nike (the shoe people) does not OWN a single factory, wearhouse, forklift, truck and they make millions every quarter.

[zachomega]

I saw this EXACT scenario go down on HC last year.  In the end, both guys looked like asses. 

-Zach Omega

[doug deeper]

yeah, i did look like an ass.

[zachomega]

haha...but you did get your 25$...right?   

-Zach Omega

yeah, i did look like an ass.

[doug deeper]

$100!
and it only took 4 years!
wooooo!!!!! teh internets!

[ulysses]

if someone helps you with a circuit - and you want to sell it - you should compensate the contributors - otherwise you are selling someone elses work for your own profit.

i mean what is so hard to understand about this? its not a legal obligation - its a moral obligation.

i guess in different parts of the world - people feel they have differernt moral obligations.

obviously the money is not the real issue here - becasue the profit levels are generally menial - but the principal still stands - i was brought up to believe you shouldnt make profit from someone elses work without compensating them - however its easy to get lost in in todays big business greedy morals - chop down the trees if it means bigger profits.

i guess you need to decide which side of the fence you sit on.

cheers
ulysses

[markm]

Then there's the definition of said co-development.
If someone offers advice, or checks over a circuit, maybe offers a few ideas for tweaks or, even explains the basics of the tweaks, is this considered co-development or is this just some friendly advice?
This IMO, is another gray area and is prone to an idividual's interpretation and opinion which is a hole 'nother can of worms in itself.
I think I know the incident being referred to here and, if I am correct, it was a "cluster" on both sides indeed.
In fact, I would probably even go as far as calling it Absurd.

[choklitlove]

i'll just add this: a lot of times, if you ask the "helper" if he minds if you sell the circuit, he won't give a crap and he won't even make you pay him.  he might just want some written credit, or maybe not even that.  some people just help.  and that's extremely cool.

moral is, like aron said, it can't hurt to ask.