True Bypass Box

[Belt]

I build true bypass pedal's that have the capability of up to 18 switches.  I know that's way too many, but the schematic I drew has the room for that many.  I am marketing the up to 12 model.  My plan is to plug individual pedals into it and use it as a "multi-effects" controller.  My question --- Is there a market for these?  I know probably not to you all who read this, simply because you are all DIY guys, but to guitar players everywhere --- would they want it?  I have a medium effects board right now and with all the mods and customs that are next, I want true bypass for all of them --- especially the dirty pedals.  I am going to have the pedal colors match the led's on the board.
Post any comments or questions please... don't just think them.   

[Pushtone]

There are a couple of guys out there doing this already.

One, the LOOOPER.com guy claims he is out of business because of Repeative stain injury (RSI), so that leave one competitor, Loop-master.com

I get asked to build these for folks from time to time, but it's not worth my time. I direct them to loop-master now.

[Belt]

I know about those guys.  Loooper hasn't been taking custom orders for a while.  But I thought in order to break up the monotony and monopoly I would hop in.  I have people ask now for 2 to 4 channel bypass loops and I do them.  But for me big is pretty cool.  I designed the 18 button and that got a "what the heck is that" look from my wife.  I even thought about making a 3 channel true bypass dirty pedal with real circuits in it.  Overdrive to Distortion to More Distortion.  But bypassing the second distortion when the first distortion is being used.  This would be very easy.  Just time consuming.  But a whole lot of fun and crazy looks!

[jonathan perez]

why do you need to true bypass everything?

read this, first.

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=58107.0

theres a link to a pete cornish page in there, read that too.

[Belt]

I don't need to bypass everything.  I want to bypass the dirty pedals without cutting their tops open.  Thanks that Pete Cornish link was great.  I didn't realize the harm it could do.  I guess that leaves me one option.  Make the board with onboard effects and run it that way!  That's inspiring.   

The pedals I want to bypass are mainly modded / custom dirty pedals.  I have one that screams (in the background) when bypassed.  But I like the sound of it when on.  So I deal with it.  It was a mistake mod, and I haven't fixed it yet.  I may never.  I don't know.  The good thing is, is that I know the problem and I didn't have to search very far. 

[MikeH]

There was an ad in a recent guitar player for a company who made these.  They charged a ridiculous amount for them.  Like, 300 bucks for 8 loops or something crazy like that.

[Belt]

They add up quickly with good components.  However, I don't think they can justify the $300.  Probably to cover the advertising!   

[jonathan perez]

i dont think it adds up that much haha

[Belt]

8 x 5=, 17 x 1.75,.....yeah.  Not really $300 is it?

[ulysses]

im not sure why people make comparisons of cost of parts to cost of product all the time.

there is a hell of a lot of work involved in selling ANY product.

if you look at any product that is mass produced the mark ups are ridiculous. any given berringer guitar pedal prob has $2 or $3 worth of parts and sells for $40. thats a huge markup. but no-one is complaining.

there is the mentality that any product which can also be made by the consumer should be close in price to the cost of the parts, which is ridiculous. this essentially comes from westener greed and outsourcing to cheap labour countries. people dont appreciate a well made product any more.

i went into a guitar store about 6 months ago and was looking for a dc jack jumper. you know - the lead that lets you plug in 8 pedals to a single psu. i'll admit that im fussy - i like a really well made product. anyway, i asked to have a look at their dc jack jumper. they only had one brand. made in china. rubbish quality. $18AUD. are you kidding me! this thing would have cost 20cents to manufacture. next to no R&D. next to no quality control. i said to the store owner, "its not good enough quality for me to purchase" he scoffed and couldnt believe it - "we sell hundreds of them, they do the job, whats the problem" - greed is the problem and a lack of appreciation for a well made product.

all products will sell at what the market will bare. there are going to be people that will make their own loopers to save $100. they have to do their own R&D, their own labour, their own trouble shooting, and in the end they will likely not end up with a product as well made as the dude who sits down to make 100 of them. ie, maybe one of the footswitches is slightly off centre.. when you are DIY, you live with things like slightly off centre switches.. etc..

there are people out there willing to pay for a well made looper box. you prob wont find them in the diy scene.

as pushtone said, there isnt enough money in making them one by one. you would want to me making hundreds of them if you wanted to make any money. depending on how you value your time, and how close you are to the mexican border, you may want to get your neighbours to make them for you.

a friend of mine recently went on a tour of china to look at products to import to australia. he too will soon be responsible for some poor aussie bastards being out of a job.

its really sad.

sorry for the rant 

cheers
ulysses

EDIT: i just had a look at loopermaster site. people prob compare his prodcuts to DIY becasuse they look like DIY jobs. no offense to the guy. they are not powdercoated or screen printed and made with sheet aluminium.

as i was implying before, you have to do something that the end consumer CANNOT do for the cost of your product. ie, the cost of screen printing 1 pedal is VERY expensive. its really only effecient for hundreds, the same with professional screenprinting.

if i was going to make a looper i would do it custom cast and powder coated aluminium like this



dodgy mockup made in photoshop from photo of the footswitch that came with my 18watt marshall
now that is something that the diyers cant make for the cost of the parts!! - but there is a lot of work there - but damn it would be a nice product if made well.

add a led option for those with fatter wallets

cheers
ulysses

[Belt]

I don't intend to sound like a pessimist.  I understand quality is worth the money.  I also understand that Dave Blackburn Custom Guitars are unbelievably low cost compared to quality.  Max Butler Amps are another good example.  I know these men personally, not to pat myself on the back.  But to bring up there are alot of great quality products that are not from the big companies.  I can't believe the quality of some guitars.  I won't mention brands on behalf of the sensitive people.
There is alot of man hours and R&D for a bypass box.  Not as much as and effect pedal.  But enough to warrant cost.  I was jumping on the price of $300 and I apologize for sounding like an unthinking insensitive critic.  I make these and will sell them.  So I guess I am a glutton for punishment.
I just wanted to hear from people I respect about their thoughts on the subject and reality of the success or failure of the idea. 
Thank you.  I love opinions and comments.
People do care.

[Processaurus]

Yikes, sounds like a ton of hand wiring, I wonder if you could make them faster and less expensively and better by using relays, meant for audio (less likely to pop when switching), on a modular PCB (cut off as many channels as you need), using SPST stompswitches, or even momentary SPST stompswitches, which are the most reliable.  Would save time on each one, the interesting thing about production is if you can eliminate a step by better planning, you've effectively done all that work without lifting a finger.

At the least little PCBs for the 3pdt switches to route everything from the lugs to where you could attach a ribbon cable to the jacks would be handy, if you can get them and the switches cheap enough that may be the way to go as far as simplicity.

[Austin73]

to be honest is there actually a need for big loopers etc, as we all do I made a few dual loops but I hardly ever use them as such unless I'm making pedals as its easier than wiring switches to each just ti test.

As always I hope for the best for you but maybe enlarge your portfolio of items offered especially when you see what some of the guys have made on here switching system wise.
Good luck anyway but as they say on dragons den I'm out

Aus

[Belt]

Yeah, I posted here because of the knowledge here.  I trust the majority of posts people on the site.  I have been getting advice from these forums for a while.  It took me a while to actually post.  I do the major mods as a side job and search for the knowledge to make my own pedals soon.  Not just makes of others.  But that's obviously where I think we all start.

[Pushtone]

It's all about features and functions.

To compete you have to offer something different in the marketplace.
In the case of MI electronics this boils down to features and functions.
Why are Line6 PODs such a hit? Features and Functions.

Three hundred dollars for and 8 channel looper (assuming there are those that need/want this)
is less than forty dollars per channel. Not bad really.
But to compete commercially you have to feature pack it and load up on functions without raising the price too much.


Sure you could just hand wire a bunch of loopers ,
but that should only be a start to build your brand.

Your eyes should be on the product you will release at NAMM three years from now.
The supped up, wireless remote controlled, mojo-tone circuit topology 8 channel looper with
every feature the guitar god wants so you can say he uses it as in " Eric Johnson uses my product and he loves it".

You will need to R&D and innovate, and talk to well established players to get their opinion.
Find a good EEE who will work cheap, eh I mean, work out an affordable payment agreement.
Then outsource, outsource, outsource. Find a good metalshop, powdercoater, and don't forget the website.

If you don't innovate and release a new product every year you will not be competing and the business will not grow.
It won't be long before someone else brings their looper to the market via a web-store and merchant account
and steals 30% of your sales. Will you want to do it when your not making your monthly quota?
Don't buy that boat just yet.

Start your business on loopers but don't stagnate. I don't consider Loop-master a real commercial producer of MI product.
It's a cottage industry and it's not going to support a factory with any size workforce. One-man-operation.
If you want to go big you should be figuring how many products you have to sell to be earning 4 million (gross sales) in five years.
After five years (if you get there) get a bank loan and take it to the next level. Strive to do a million more in sales each couple of years.
Then start looking for small companies you can buy and use their technology. This is how Alesis started and thats and interesting story.


Answer this for yourself: What makes my looper different and why would a guitarist what to use it?







Wait, I've got a better idea, sportswear baby.
Some YoYo banana or something clothing company here in Vancouver posted a 10 million dollar profit in 8 years and is going public.
If you want to make money trendy sportswear is were its at.

.

[Belt]

 

I love it!  Let me get started.

Thank you for the food for thought.  I really do appreciate it.

[analogmike]

We have always made custom switchboxes.

had these made recently, in connecticut - expensive but worth it!!!



You can run these over with a car and they still work. Box alone is over $40. Might be able to sell some to DIY people if interested.

p.s. nice posts by Ulysses

p.p.s i also sell these



thegigrig.com