Triangle Muff - ceramic or poly caps?

[Electric Warrior]

I know that EHX used mainly ceramic caps (for cost reasons?) in the original units. Has anybody here tried both, ceramic and poly caps, in this circuit and can report how they affect tone?

[Dragonfly]

I know Skreddy generally prefers ceramics.

[Mark Hammer]

Ceramic is what got us here, baby!  If it was good enough for all those pre-1975 players you like, why fight it?

[QSQCaito]

Ceramic is what got us here, baby!  If it was good enough for all those pre-1975 players you like, why fight it?

No offense, that's a (spanglish maybe) conformist opinion.

Why fight it?, cause it could be better

Bye

DAC

[Mark Hammer]

You're right, it could be "better", but I'm not sure what "better" would be and how most people would be able to tell the difference between better (i.e., two caps are identical value) and different (i.e., same nominal value but different performance because of different true value).

At the very least, ceramic will be good enough.  If comeone wants to venture beyond that and is happy with the results, so much the better.  It's just a fuzz, folks.

[Gus]

The best thing to do is to try it yourself.   The caps don't cost alot. 
You need to build and teach your ear what counts and what does not matter.
I been playing with caps from about 1979/80 when I read the Jung and Marsh stuff

I will give some hints
voltage difference
dielectic stress
DA
ESR
voltage rating
microphonics(what is sometimes used as pickups in acoustic guitars?)
different types of ceramics

I uses different caps at different places.  Some parts of circuits you might hear a change others you might not.  There is science to it

[nightingale]

I prefer ceramic caps in muff's.
Right now I am digging the "accepted stock" version with ceramic caps.
best,
ry

[QSQCaito]

You're right, it could be "better", but I'm not sure what "better" would be and how most people would be able to tell the difference between better (i.e., two caps are identical value) and different (i.e., same nominal value but different performance because of different true value).

At the very least, ceramic will be good enough.  If comeone wants to venture beyond that and is happy with the results, so much the better.  It's just a fuzz, folks.

There's a big probability that I don't hear the difference. But something in me would be telling me that "it could sound better". I pay the price to take the doubt, because I've never compared 2 exact circuit with different caps. Not to feel guilty a couple of cents could make it better.. hidden mojo i guess

[nightingale]

I don't claim to have a "golden ear", but I am comfortable saying that ceramic caps make a bmp circuit sound slightly more fizzy. It prefer the slight "crispy" sound it adds to the fuzz. It's not a huge difference, but it is there for sure. I use old ceramic ones I get from a electronic surplus store here in town.

I have diy 7 bmp clones boxed up, and 2 Russian made bmps with mods. This is where I got my opinions.

take it easiest,
ry

[Skreddy]

Ceramics have "that" triangle-knob tone--grittier, kind of a "smokey" sound with a lighter touch in the bass register; polys have a clearer tone with more treble and potentially fuller bass, though that depends on the specific type and voltage.  Voltage plays a large roll, with higher voltage caps generally resulting in a fuller sound and lower voltage caps producing thinner sounds, depending on how high or how low in voltage you go.  Generally 50v is good enough for most applications not to suffer from excessive "thin-ness."  Depending on the application, you can hear a "better" tone from 200v or 400v or even 1kv+ caps.  "Better" of course in the totally subjective sense.  Sometimes "better" doesn't mean more hi-fi; it means less.  Like maybe an overdrive or a FuzzFace might be improved with higher voltage, higher-quality caps.  I think the BMP sounds "better" with a least a few ceramics, but the particular parts I'll use also depend on what type of transistors I'm using and of course the target tone and 'feel' I'm after.

The "rams head" BMP used 6v 10uf electros for the input, for example, though some of the ceramics were 1kv.

You could use all modern polys in a BMP, and you could use modern 2N5088 or 2N5089 transistors, and you could use all modern metal-film resistors.  I wouldn't call it a "triangle knob" clone, but no doubt there'd be a "good" result nonetheless.  It just depends on what you want it to sound like.  In my view, the parts you use in this circuit make just as much if not more difference than the minor value differences found in the various models throughout the years.  Build a modern BMP schematic using vintage-style parts, and you'll get a vintage-sounding result, and vice versa.

Another small benefit of ceramics is they're a bit lossy, and sometimes that can actually help reduce noise in a high-gain circuit, where a poly would pass that hiss right through.

[Electric Warrior]

sounds like ceramic is the way to go.
I'll give it a shot. Thanks a lot for your help, guys!

[goosonique]

The bigger the ceramic's the better....skreddy  ..but hard to come by nowadays !!
To my ears it gives more of the *smokey glazed* effects rather than the gritt ....

[Electric Warrior]

..but hard to come by nowadays !!

I just realized... some values are unavailable.. The 0.1uf  electrolytics are hard to get as well, but I finally found some.

[jlullo]

i've been thinking about giving the russian stock a shot.. i've built the triangle already and love it.  if so, maybe i'll have to try with ceramics!   i haven't messed with them much

[Skreddy]

The bigger the ceramic's the better....skreddy  ..but hard to come by nowadays !!
To my ears it gives more of the *smokey glazed* effects rather than the gritt ....

Cool.  I think Mouser has some 1kv ceramics in stock.