Big Muff Triangle 2n5133

[soapamp]

I'm going to build one.  I have the question on Hfe value of each transistor 2n5133.  Anyone know or can advise the value of Hfe.

[SonicVI]

The 2N5133's in my "Ram's Head" are around 100.  If you buy from Small Bear the gains are all over the place. I bought 20 and had everywhere from 60 to 400.   I would just try out different gains and see if you prefer higher or lower.

[sfx]

The ones I received from Small Bear recently all had terribly low hFE. I don't think any of them were higher than 100.

YMMV.

[jimbob]

Sounds like those would work well in the Axis Fuzz. (best silicon fuzz Ive heard in a LONG time)

[soapamp]

As I known the specification was mention Hfe 60-1000.  It's quite vary.   

So, Hfe=100 all of 4 transistors.  Will it ok.?  Do they need high Hfe at the first stage and low Hfe on 2nd stage onward.?

[Mark Hammer]

I still have the 2N5133 trannies from my old small box Muff Fuzz.  I couldn't quote you but I recall they were fairly modest-to-medium gain, somewhere in the hfe=150-200 range.  My gut tells me that they had a bin of these and plucked 2 for the Muff Fuzz and 4 for a BMP, without any sort of selection for hfe. 

[smallbearelec]

The ones I have been getting are Fairchild 1970s die-lot that were supposed to be marked as 2N5133 but never got to that stage. For some time, people were cherry-picking them to get the 10 percent or so that were very high gain. I had to discourage the boutiques from buying them, because the only guarantee I get from the vendor is a minimum hfe of 50. They tell me that is the original spec for the part. At the price, I can't afford to sort and can't give the time to it.

The same source once sent me some samples of those "dot" package devices that were closer to an average 200 hfe. I will see if I can get some more. The upshot here is that I do have real, NOS parts, but I can Not guarantee the high hfe that some people want for BMP and other clones.

Regards
SD

[gutsofgold]

Any idea on good substitutes besides the usual 5088/5089? I'm building a Triangle clone.

[smallbearelec]

I have gotten a bunch of Fairchild SE4010. These are old-stock epoxy "dot" package and are guaranteed to hit a minimum Hfe of 140 by the "Bear Bones" method that puts 9 microamps into the Base. At the price, I am able and willing to  exchange any that don't get that high. Of ten pieces I tested, eight had gains of over 200, one only made 140 and one hit over 400.

To be fair to all comers and to be able to maintain the price, no pre-sorting for gain buckets and DIY quantities only.

Regards
SD

[bumblebee]

Any idea on good substitutes besides the usual 5088/5089? I'm building a Triangle clone.

Maybe try 2N3565 they are good in a foxx tone machine, give em a try.

[R.G.]

There are a lot of transistors out there. They vary so much in gain that
==> the specified gains almost don't matter <==What good, exactly, is a gain spec with a minimum of 50 and a max of 1000? And what collector current and frequency are those numbers quoted at anyway?

If you want lower gains that are typical for 2N5088, the 2N3904 is lower, but these days 200 is common. Try some of these:
2N4400
2N4123
PN2222
PN2222A
Unlike some other devices, these have the very desireable quality that they can actually be found and bought.

I find it both sad and amusing that boutique makers pester Steve for selected high gain 2N5133s.

Have any of you read some of the literature on totems and amulets?

[smallbearelec]

Hi R. G.--

To be fair, I wasn't pestered. I had my eyes open when I chose to accept certain commercial orders before I knew more about finding and selling old-stock parts. I got myself into some grief and learned better, partly from reading your expositions in these pages.

Re totems, amulets and "mojo:" A number of my customers who have good ears say that these old-stock parts do sound slightly different from modern silicon transistors of comparable gain. You, yourself, have noted that manufacturing techniques were different back when, so maybe the customers are hearing the result of that. If you do a "Technology Of The Big Muff" article, I'll be happy to provide a few devices for evaluation. Meanwhile, I'm glad that I can accomodate the DIY desire for "authentic" at a reasonable price.

[R.G.]

Re totems, amulets and "mojo:" A number of my customers who have good ears say that these old-stock parts do sound slightly different from modern silicon transistors of comparable gain. You, yourself, have noted that manufacturing techniques were different back when, so maybe the customers are hearing the result of that. If you do a "Technology Of The Big Muff" article, I'll be happy to provide a few devices for evaluation. Meanwhile, I'm glad that I can accomodate the DIY desire for "authentic" at a reasonable price.

It is true that semiconductor processes have changed a lot over the last several decades. We are perilously near the era when there will be only three main semiconductor processes on the planet, given the need for ever-higher standards of cleanliness, precision, and resolution, and the necessary costs of achieving that.

However, most transistor circuits, like especially the transistor big muff, are designed to hide the variations of transistors. I know a large number of people who swear that they can hear microscopic variations of circuits, including the oxygen content of the interconnecting wire. However, this kind of assertion has always fallen afoul of any scrupulously fair tests in the audio world. In the hifi world, the "golden ears" fared so badly on the first few blind tests that no self respecting Subjectivist will agree to take part in the tests any more. When the tests expose that they cannot in fact do any better than random guessing, they then become sure that the test is flawed, rather than believe they were prejudiced. I would expect much the same thing to happen in the musical world.

My boss placed a largish bet on this recently. He footed the bill for a test that was large and as fair as we could make it without actually isolating participants and doing double blind setups. The results were... interesting. 

I would love to do something similar with different sets of magic mojo transistors versus 2N3904s in a Big Muff. But a fair test needs a relatively huge investment in time and effort. You first need a fair sample of listeners, and that needs to be good-ears guitar players. Then you need a setup where they must make selections of better, same or worse with no information other than what they can hear. Finally you have to record the testing so the inevitable deniers can be refuted. It's a huge amount of work. But serious fun... 

[Ben N]

... You first need a fair sample of listeners, and that needs to be good-ears guitar players.

Like, uh, say, Pete Townshend, Eric Clapton or Jeff Beck?
http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DnPHJe5LqMpA
http://www.thedeafblog.co.uk/2008/09/eric_clapton_is_the_latest_cel.html

Maybe some better-ears non-guitar players would do just as well.

As long as I'm here, consider this a vote of the ignorant on the side of skepticism. I can't possibly 'splain it like RG can, but the notion that some mystical quality deep in the silicon, some special part designation in parts where the variation within a type far outstrips the difference between different types, can somehow predict or account for a critical tonal distinction in a circuit where every active is being pummeled and clipped to hell and gone and linearity is just a distant memory--well that just gets giggles from me. Intuitively it seems obvious that every coupling cap in a Muff has a lot more to do with variations in tone than the transistor part nos.

[Nitefly182]

I have never and never will understand the desire of so many people to shoot down others' desire to use authentic parts as nonsense that has no impact on the sound of the pedal. Let people have fun with what they build instead of picking them out and challenging them to a childish contest to see if they can hear the difference. Who cares? Its the difference between a $0.20 part and a $1 part. Get over it and live and let live.

[Ben N]

Nitefly, you misunderstand. I have no problem with anyone using whatever they want. This forum is about the free flow of information and opinion, and I don't mind expressing mine. I hope that is ok with you.

[Nitefly182]

Nitefly, you misunderstand. I have no problem with anyone using whatever they want. This forum is about the free flow of information and opinion, and I don't mind expressing mine. I hope that is ok with you.

Were generally miscommunicating. I wasn't targeting anyone in particular. I was just expressing my annoyance at the back and forth over whether or not people can hear differences in parts and the general attitude from people who believe you cant that they have to prove no one else can just to shove it in their face.

Look at the benefits on either side:

If I believe I can hear the difference between caps from different batches 2 weeks apart thats fine. It doesn't hurt anyone else.

If I believe others cant hear such differences and I make a point to call them out and challenge them to prove them wrong that just takes the fun out of building for everyone.

I think one of those situations is fine for everyone and the other creates undue problems in the community. Just a late night thought thats all.

[Unbeliever]

I was just expressing my annoyance at the back and forth over whether or not people can hear differences in parts and the general attitude from people who believe you cant that they have to prove no one else can just to shove it in their face.

I'd rather spend my valuable time, money and energy on making changes and chasing parts that make a real and quantifiable difference in sound, rather than something that is 'mojo'. The problems develop when 'mojo' is then reported, some correlation is made ... and some other person then feels they absolutely must have THAT batch of 4558s or Ge transistors or whatever the flavour of the month is.

If I believe I can hear the difference between caps from different batches 2 weeks apart thats fine. It doesn't hurt anyone else.

Having delusional beliefs does indeed hurt others. There are plenty of real-world examples outside of stompboxes demonstrating this; and within the stompbox scene, chasing ghosts is a waste of time better spent on learning how circuits work or working on original designs, or doing PCB layouts for others, and so on.

I think one of those situations is fine for everyone and the other creates undue problems in the community.

Me too, but I think my opinion is reversed compared to yours... 

[Ben N]

Bingo.

[Purple People Eater]

If someone wants to go on a mojo hunt, it's ok to say "you probably won't hear a bit of difference by using mojo parts" and leave it at that. Going on and on about it is unnecessary. Some say that they can hear a difference. Who am I to tell them that they can't ? If somebody still wants to spend their own hard earned money on mojo parts, well, it's their money.