2N5133 substitutes for Triangle tone?

[gutsofgold]

Just finished etching a new Big Muff board, one of those original Triangle layouts. Ceramic caps and carbon comps on board. I doubt I'll find any 2N5133s with a high enough gain so I was wondering if you've gotten a similar sound with available transistors?

[Nitefly182]

Just finished etching a new Big Muff board, one of those original Triangle layouts. Ceramic caps and carbon comps on board. I doubt I'll find any 2N5133s with a high enough gain so I was wondering if you've gotten a similar sound with available transistors?

Depending on how much gain you want, the available 2n5133s are actually plenty gainy they just dont really saturate like a big muff. They turn out a real punchy rock distortion which may or may not be pleasing to you.

[gutsofgold]

Yeah, I'm going for the crazier side of things. From what I gathered, somewhere in the 500hfe are is what I want.

[R.G.]

MPSA18 gets there.

[Nitefly182]

Yeah, I'm going for the crazier side of things. From what I gathered, somewhere in the 500hfe are is what I want.

I know Marc from Skreddy is the big muff guy and I think he said about 200 is where the original muffs were. I didn't even know you could find them in 500. That must be insane.

[smallbearelec]

The factory spec for that device is a minimum of 50, and I get them from a source that has large quantities of old-stock Fairchild die-lot. A Very small percentage had gains of several hundred, and a some people found them unusually tasty for BMP clones. But those "hot" devices were gross exceptions, and I could not (cannot!) offer to supply them consistently. In this regard, please see R. G.'s previous posts on the inconsistencies of semioconductor manufacture that were the norm in the 60s and 70s.

I am talking now with the same vendor to see if they have NOS parts in that 70s epoxy "dot" package that run consistently higherin Hfe, and will post for sale if I succeed.

Regards
SD

[gutsofgold]

Steve I'll be sure to keep an eye out for them. Thanks.

I gave some of 2N2484's a try, hfe around 300 for all of them. It's pretty nice sounding, real crunchy, just sort of sterile. Hoping for something a bit more saturated sounding.

I also have some BC239's around here that I'm pretty sure I ordered to try to in a Big Muff, I can't remember what else they are for  .

[SonicVI]

Yeah, I'm going for the crazier side of things. From what I gathered, somewhere in the 500hfe are is what I want.

I know Marc from Skreddy is the big muff guy and I think he said about 200 is where the original muffs were. I didn't even know you could find them in 500. That must be insane.

My version 2 Muff from '74 with 2n5133's are all around 100. I doubt EH selected their trannies for a specific gain. They probably vary from muff to muff.

[Mark Hammer]

I concur with SonicVI.  I still have the components from my disassembled early 70's Muff Fuzz, and the 2N5133 trannies are well below hfe=250.  Whatever mojo may (or may not) lie in the trannies, it ain't from higher hfe.

[SonicVI]

Also, I built a triangle muff clone with the 5133's from Small bear. I used the highest gain ones of the lot which were in the 350-400 range and it doesn't have any more perceptible gain or distortion than my aforementioned original. There must be more to getting more volume or distortion than just the hfes.

[R.G.]

Also, I built a triangle muff clone with the 5133's from Small bear. I used the highest gain ones of the lot which were in the 350-400 range and it doesn't have any more perceptible gain or distortion than my aforementioned original. There must be more to getting more volume or distortion than just the hfes.

Yep, there is.

The two distortion stages of the Big Muff are not simple gain stages. Instead, they are run similar to inverting opamps. The raw (no feedback) gain of the stage is determined by the collector resistor, the external loading on the collector resistor, and the emitter resistance. As long as that's big enough, the actual gain is set by that collector-to-base feedback resistor and the series resistance into the base. However, that only holds until the diodes conduct. At that point, it becomes a feedback-diode clipper.

The hfes only matter to get enough gain to make the other promises come true, and there are probably a lot of diminishing returns above 200.

The input and output gain stages are different yet, with a fixed bias point, but a gain deliberately resistant to hfe variations.

I guess I'll write up a "Technology of the Big Muff".

[SonicVI]

I guess I'll write up a "Technology of the Big Muff".

That would be fantastic!

[sfx]

Try some BC108, BC109C, or regular plain jane 2N5088's. They all sounded decent to me. I've tested fairly high gain 2N5133's (400+) in a Muff build and while they sound fine, I don't think there's a ton of extra magic mojo in them.

I don't know what transistors are in the Little Big Muff, but it sounds really good to me. It's got a massive sound to it.

[gutsofgold]

According to

http://www.student.ru.nl/r.kerkhof/Taas/Mods/Big%20Muff.htm

"The Little Big Muff uses 2N5962 with a Hfe of around 1500 - 2000."

[R.G.]

According to
http://www.student.ru.nl/r.kerkhof/Taas/Mods/Big%20Muff.htm
"The Little Big Muff uses 2N5962 with a Hfe of around 1500 - 2000."

Quoting the Fairchild datasheet for the 2N5962

... see 2N5088 for characteristics.