|HOME| |DIY FAQ| |GEO FAQ| |Debugging Page| |Links| |Schematics| |Wiki| |Layouts Gallery| |STORE|
|AMPAGE| |GEOFEX| |AMZ|

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 21, 2014, 10:01:05 AM
964190 Posts in 102999 Topics by 32603 Members
Latest Member: Filip
Home Help Login Register
DIYstompboxes.com  |  DIY Stompboxes  |  Building your own stompbox  |  MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 24 Go Down Print
Author Topic: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions  (Read 79125 times)
Nitefly182
Posts: 500


Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2009, 09:52:14 PM »

Yeah its a little more complicated than the average build Wink
Logged
oldschoolanalog
Posts: leet


leet forever!


WWW
Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2009, 06:07:17 PM »

 A/DA Flanger (mn3007) distortion
on: Today at 05:56:41 PM    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just built one of the flangers from the new board, and i'm having an issue with it distorting. if i have the range and manual knobs below 50% it works fine, but anything about that and the top of the sweep distorts a lot. i've tweaked the bias trim and the sweep trims a ton and i can't seem to get rid of the white noise/distortion that's occuring. any thoughts on what could be going on?


Try adjusting TR6. This controls the level of the BBD output. I might be set too "hot". Also, what signal source are you feeding it? A bit more info would help alot. I'm at work now. More later...
Logged

Mystery lounge. No tables, chairs or waiters here. In fact, we're all quite alone.
allmonochrome
Posts: 23


Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2009, 06:12:00 PM »

as far as what i'm feeding it, i'm just playing a strat straight into it. i was able to minimize the distortion a bit more but there's still and audible slightly distorted LFO sweep in the background. is that normal?
Logged
oldschoolanalog
Posts: leet


leet forever!


WWW
Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2009, 06:17:19 PM »

More than the gate can resolve?
Logged

Mystery lounge. No tables, chairs or waiters here. In fact, we're all quite alone.
allmonochrome
Posts: 23


Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2009, 06:41:02 PM »

well the threshold knob gets rid of it when i'm not playing but it can be heard in the background when i strum at all. it's not bad but it's definitely present.
Logged
StephenGiles
Posts: 5515


Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2009, 05:48:23 AM »

More than the gate can resolve?

I didn't nother with the gate - the noise is all part of a flanger to me. Try changing R13 to the BBD bias trim to 4k7 which should provide a better range to trim out the distortion.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 05:59:42 AM by StephenGiles » Logged

If you don't go when you do want to go, then when you do go you'll find that you've gone.
Paul Marossy
Posts: 12527


Just Another Guitarhead


WWW
Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2009, 09:37:02 AM »

Just revisitiing the TL074 vs. LM324 IC chip question again. The one thing that the LM324 claims on the data sheet is that it has a "high voltage gain" of 100dB, and the TL074 data sheet does not a specify voltage gain or at least I don't know where to look for that info on the data sheet. I didn't see it anywhere.

So, I'm thinking that perhaps the LM324 is what is needed if a TL072 does not have similar voltage gain characteristics as a lower gain may make the effect less "intense". I have some LM324s coming from Mouser, so maybe I can do an A/B test to see if there is a really audible difference between them.

Comments and/or opinions?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 09:39:36 AM by Paul Marossy » Logged

_/\_/\_PJM_/\_/\_

www.diyguitarist.com
www.soundcloud.com/Paul-Marossy

"Tone is in the fingers."
puretube
Posts: 7206


but, err, I`m not really here...


WWW
Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2009, 11:00:27 AM »

LM324 can go to gnd!

(TL074 has an AVD (large-signal differential voltage amplification) specified as: "V/mV" (~200) ).
Logged

StephenGiles
Posts: 5515


Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2009, 12:18:46 PM »

More than the gate can resolve?

I didn't nother with the gate - the noise is all part of a flanger to me. Try changing R13 to the BBD bias trim to 4k7 which should provide a better range to trim out the distortion.


"nother" how's your nothering missus?  I meant bother!!
Logged

If you don't go when you do want to go, then when you do go you'll find that you've gone.
Paul Marossy
Posts: 12527


Just Another Guitarhead


WWW
Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2009, 12:58:39 PM »

LM324 can go to gnd!

(TL074 has an AVD (large-signal differential voltage amplification) specified as: "V/mV" (~200) ).

Pardon my ignorance, what does that mean? Does that mean that the TL074 has more gain than the LM324?
Logged

_/\_/\_PJM_/\_/\_

www.diyguitarist.com
www.soundcloud.com/Paul-Marossy

"Tone is in the fingers."
oldschoolanalog
Posts: leet


leet forever!


WWW
Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2009, 01:10:22 PM »

Look at the "real" A/DA schematics (with a grain of salt, of course). Revs 3,4 & Rev. D (the one w/SAD1024). No where in the audio path can an LM324 be found. 1/2 LM 324 is used in the gate circuitry in all 3 revs. The other 1/2 is used in the CV circuitry. A variety op op amps can be found in the audio section. 3403, 1458, 4741, 1458, 348 seem to be the ones specified (depending on the rev.) The LFO is a 1458 in all 3 revs. That's the "paper" side of things.  In my 3010 based reissue things are a bit different. There is one LM324 (1/2 is the LFO, I haven't traced where the other 1/2 goes) and all the rest are TL074's & TL072's. I've used/tested TL072/4, LM324, OPA4228, MC33174, in audio portions of my A/DA builds. All with good success. No excessive noise issues. For the LFO I've used LM2904's & MC33172's. Chosen for low current consumption; they both work fine. So, what am I getting at?
Many roads lead to Rome. Try a variety of op amps and use what you've convinced yourself sounds best. Or; just use what you have on hand at the time. That's why I tried the OPA4228. By the way, it doesn't sound any better than a TL074 in this circuit.
More later...
Logged

Mystery lounge. No tables, chairs or waiters here. In fact, we're all quite alone.
Paul Marossy
Posts: 12527


Just Another Guitarhead


WWW
Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2009, 01:15:13 PM »

Look at the "real" A/DA schematics (with a grain of salt, of course). Revs 3,4 & Rev. D (the one w/SAD1024). No where in the audio path can an LM324 be found. 1/2 LM 324 is used in the gate circuitry in all 3 revs. The other 1/2 is used in the CV circuitry. A variety op op amps can be found in the audio section. 3403, 1458, 4741, 1458, 348 seem to be the ones specified (depending on the rev.) The LFO is a 1458 in all 3 revs. That's the "paper" side of things.  In my 3010 based reissue things are a bit different. There is one LM324 (1/2 is the LFO, I haven't traced where the other 1/2 goes) and all the rest are TL074's & TL072's. I've used/tested TL072/4, LM324, OPA4228, MC33174, in audio portions of my A/DA builds. All with good success. No excessive noise issues. For the LFO I've used LM2904's & MC33172's. Chosen for low current consumption; they both work fine. So, what am I getting at?
Many roads lead to Rome. Try a variety of op amps and use what you've convinced yourself sounds best. Or; just use what you have on hand at the time. That's why I tried the OPA4228. By the way, it doesn't sound any better than a TL074 in this circuit.
More later...

Thanks for clearing that up. I only ask this because on this bill of materials, http://www.moosapotamus.net/IDEAS/ADAflanger/ADA_MN3007/ADAflanger_MN3007_BOM.htm, it states that IC-1, IC-2 & IC-3 are all LM324s...

I do have the Rev 3 & Rev 4 schematics and know about the other IC chips that have been used in the earlier versions of the real ADA Flangers, I have all of those data sheets printed out and in my ever-growing ADA Flanger file. Anyhow, the newer IC chips clearly outperform what they had available in the late 70s/early 80s.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 01:17:05 PM by Paul Marossy » Logged

_/\_/\_PJM_/\_/\_

www.diyguitarist.com
www.soundcloud.com/Paul-Marossy

"Tone is in the fingers."
Paul Marossy
Posts: 12527


Just Another Guitarhead


WWW
Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2009, 08:56:29 PM »

Well, my MN3007 IC chips came in the mail today. I put one in and the circuit started up with no problems... whew! I was hoping that I wouldn't have to do any troubleshooting as it's a pretty complicated circuit. A little tweaking of the trimpots and it's working nicely. Just a couple of small bugs to work out, but overall I am very happy with it. It really has a pretty wide range of sounds and effects, very fun little toy!  icon_razz

One of those small bugs is that I can hear a bit of a slight distortion in some parts of the sweep with the knobs at certain settings. Is that normal?

Also, on some parts of the sweep, I can hear a very high pitched "whine" with my head phones on. I would guess that it's somewhere around 20-22kHz.  Is that "normal"? I tweaked all of the trimpots to make everything sound as good as possible, but that whine is still there. It may not be audible when playing thru an amp, though. I'll have to do a little more testing...
« Last Edit: March 02, 2009, 09:09:48 PM by Paul Marossy » Logged

_/\_/\_PJM_/\_/\_

www.diyguitarist.com
www.soundcloud.com/Paul-Marossy

"Tone is in the fingers."
Nitefly182
Posts: 500


Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2009, 10:14:51 PM »

Well, my MN3007 IC chips came in the mail today. I put one in and the circuit started up with no problems... whew! I was hoping that I wouldn't have to do any troubleshooting as it's a pretty complicated circuit. A little tweaking of the trimpots and it's working nicely. Just a couple of small bugs to work out, but overall I am very happy with it. It really has a pretty wide range of sounds and effects, very fun little toy!  icon_razz

One of those small bugs is that I can hear a bit of a slight distortion in some parts of the sweep with the knobs at certain settings. Is that normal?

Also, on some parts of the sweep, I can hear a very high pitched "whine" with my head phones on. I would guess that it's somewhere around 20-22kHz.  Is that "normal"? I tweaked all of the trimpots to make everything sound as good as possible, but that whine is still there. It may not be audible when playing thru an amp, though. I'll have to do a little more testing...

You are getting clock bleed which means you have the clock frequency set too high. Try tweaking TR4.

My build has some clipping as well. That seems to be a typical issue I think.
Logged
Paul Marossy
Posts: 12527


Just Another Guitarhead


WWW
Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2009, 11:03:26 PM »

Well, my MN3007 IC chips came in the mail today. I put one in and the circuit started up with no problems... whew! I was hoping that I wouldn't have to do any troubleshooting as it's a pretty complicated circuit. A little tweaking of the trimpots and it's working nicely. Just a couple of small bugs to work out, but overall I am very happy with it. It really has a pretty wide range of sounds and effects, very fun little toy!  icon_razz

One of those small bugs is that I can hear a bit of a slight distortion in some parts of the sweep with the knobs at certain settings. Is that normal?

Also, on some parts of the sweep, I can hear a very high pitched "whine" with my head phones on. I would guess that it's somewhere around 20-22kHz.  Is that "normal"? I tweaked all of the trimpots to make everything sound as good as possible, but that whine is still there. It may not be audible when playing thru an amp, though. I'll have to do a little more testing...

You are getting clock bleed which means you have the clock frequency set too high. Try tweaking TR4.

My build has some clipping as well. That seems to be a typical issue I think.

OK, I will give that a second look. Thanks.
Logged

_/\_/\_PJM_/\_/\_

www.diyguitarist.com
www.soundcloud.com/Paul-Marossy

"Tone is in the fingers."
oldschoolanalog
Posts: leet


leet forever!


WWW
Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2009, 11:13:56 PM »

My build has some clipping as well. That seems to be a typical issue I think.
This is starting to confuse me. It really shouldn't be an issue; typical or otherwise. The circuit with the 3007 retrofit board that I tested had no such issues. I sent Charlie the same board to test and he reported no problems. Give me a chance to build mine (I'm waiting for some parts) so I can hear/see what's going on.
One of those small bugs is that I can hear a bit of a slight distortion in some parts of the sweep with the knobs at certain settings. Is that normal?
What part of the sweep? And what settings? Your observations are greatly appreciated. I need to get to this resolved.
Maybe in the mean time someone with a completed build could either audio probe it or check things out on a 'scope to find out where the distortion/clipping occurs in the circuit?
I'm on the case. Thanks for your patience.
Dave
Logged

Mystery lounge. No tables, chairs or waiters here. In fact, we're all quite alone.
Paul Marossy
Posts: 12527


Just Another Guitarhead


WWW
Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2009, 06:11:22 AM »

Quote
What part of the sweep? And what settings? Your observations are greatly appreciated. I need to get to this resolved.
Maybe in the mean time someone with a completed build could either audio probe it or check things out on a 'scope to find out where the distortion/clipping occurs in the circuit?
I'm on the case. Thanks for your patience.
Dave

I'll try to make some notes on this sort of stuff after I get home from work today, if I have any time to sit down and mess with it.

BTW, just for the record, I am using a $1.00 thrift store wall wart to power mine - a 12V 500mA wall wart. It puts out around 18V with no load on it.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 06:18:14 AM by Paul Marossy » Logged

_/\_/\_PJM_/\_/\_

www.diyguitarist.com
www.soundcloud.com/Paul-Marossy

"Tone is in the fingers."
bajaman
Posts: 65


Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2009, 03:31:38 PM »

I purchased a board from Moosapotamus - very nice board too! However I was less than overjoyed when i plugged my guitar in and played it (after setting it up with a frequency counter, a scope and the correct ADA calibration procedures). So - I set to work reading, downloading ALL the ADA schematics I could find and comparing them to the Boss BF2 etc.
Here is what I discovered (the board I am using is the one designed to accomodate the Panasonic MN3007 BBD chip - modified by oldschoolanalog).
The board has an additional 78L05 regulator fitted (silkscreen is 180 degrees wrong for this IC!!!!) to power the CMOS and BBD chips - why!!
I fitted a 47 ohm resistor in it's place (input to output pin on the board) to obtain the much higher headroom available ( the MN3007 is designed to work from + 15v dc anyway!!).
I fitted an additional 22k resistor (track break required) in series with the 10n capacitor and the inverting input of the gain stage immediately following the BBD outputs.
This allows a much deeper flanging effect to be heard (it could be a 20k preset with a 10k in series fitted externally if desired ).
I noticed more than one person on another 38 page  thread on this site, complaining about the wobbly unatural and unusable high speed and partial solutions to this problem.
Okay - the original ADA flanger used a SAD1024 and then a MN3010 when the SAD became scarce. Both of these chips can give a 1024 stage delay, HOWEVER, they are both used as 512 stage delays in the ADA Flanger - take a closer look at the schematics - that's right, the inputs and outputs are paralleled in BOTH cases.( the MN3010 is two independent 512 stage delay lines)
The oldschoolanalog suggestion to use the MN3007, which is a single 1024 stage delay line has merit - it is still relatively easy to source and cheap (compared to the MN3005 and MN3010 etc.) BUT because we are now using double the delay line of the ADA Flanger we need to double the clocking speed to get the same results.(perhaps two MN3007 chips stacked would get closer to the MN3010 performance??!!).
The correct clocking speed should now be 69.6KHz to 2600KHz (not 34.8KHz to 1300KHz as in the ADA calibration specsheet)- don't worry the additional current buffers (CD4049) fitted, easily allow the MN3007 to be clocked at this higher speed.
I had to increase the 82k in series with the clock range trim pot to 150k to set the higher clocking speeds.(R65)
In conclusion - after these modifications the TRUE sound of the ADA Flanger was heard at last. I am genuinely surprised that no one has seemed to notice that the MN3007 was double the delay line length required for this circuit though. icon_rolleyes icon_rolleyes icon_rolleyes
cheers
bajaman
Logged
neil411
Posts: 88

Neil VZ


Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2009, 04:10:24 PM »

Bajaman,

Correct me if I'm wrong. I count three mods:

1. Get rid of the 15V regulator and put a a 47 ohm resistor in it's place.

2. Add a 22k resistor in series with the 10n cap

3. Replace R65 (82K) with a 150K resistor.

Is that it?

Thanks
Logged
StephenGiles
Posts: 5515


Re: MN3007 ADA Flanger Clone Questions
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2009, 04:21:24 PM »

 icon_biggrin
Logged

If you don't go when you do want to go, then when you do go you'll find that you've gone.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 24 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to: